>>> NEXT, TO CREATING ART.

EVER WONDERED HOW ARTISTS MAKE GREAT PIECES?

IS IT TALENT, DISCIPLINE, RUTHLESS SELF-EDITING, PROMOTION, OR SOMETHING MORE PERSONAL?

ADAM MOSS, THE FORMER AWARD-WINNING "NEW YORK" MAGAZINE EDITOR, BECAME FASCINATED WITH THIS QUESTION WHEN HE MADE THE SWITCH TO PAINTING.

IN HIS NEW BOOK, "THE WORK OF ART," MOSS DIVES INTO THE MINDS OF CREATIVES AND THEIR ARTISTIC PROCESSES, AND HE TELLS WALTER ISAACSON WHAT HE'S OBSERVED.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

AND ADAM MOSS, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU, WALTER.

REALLY GREAT TO BE HERE.

>> YOUR BOOK BEGINS WITH THE SQUIGGLY DRAWING THAT FRANK GARY DOES AS A THOUGHT OF WHAT THE GUGGENHEIM WILL BE.

AND THEN YOU GO THERE, AND I THINK ALSO, YOU DID A STORY ON THE GUGEN HIM WHEN YOU WERE AT "NEW YORK" MAGAZINE, COMPARING IT TO MARILYN MONROE.

TELL ME HOW THAT SQUIGGLY BECOMES THAT BUILDING AND WHAT YOU LEARNED FROM FRANK GARY.

>> WELL, I WAS JUST RIVETED BY THIS -- I WAS ACTUALLY IN THE GIFT SHOP OF THE MUSEUM, AND THE -- THE BUILDING ITSELF IS JUST THIS WEIRD, CRAZY BUILDING, WHICH, YES, THE OLD ARCHITECTURE CRITIC OF "THE NEW YORK TIMES", HE HAD WRITTEN THIS TRIBUTE TO THIS BUILDING, WHICH WAS, I MEAN, NOW WE'RE KIND OF USED TO WHAT FRANK GARY DOES, BUT AT THAT TIME, THIS WAS KIND OF THE FIRST OF THEM, AND IT WAS LIKE, WHOA, WHAT IS HE DOING HERE?

AND TO BE IN THE BUILDING, OPENING THIS BOOK CALLED "GARY DRAWS" AND TO SEE THIS FIRST, OR, EARLY THOUGHT, MANIFESTED IS JUST A FABULOUSLY CRAZY DOODLE, WAS TO SEE THAT INITIAL THOUGHT IN ACTION.

AND THEN, YOU KNOW, THEN COMES A LOT OF STRUGGLE, AND A LOT OF ENGINEERING PROBLEMS, ET CETERA, BUT THAT FIRST IMPULSE WAS CAUGHT IN THIS DRAWING, WHICH SO MOVED ME, AND THAT'S WHY I STARTED THE BOOK WITH IT, BECAUSE IT WAS SO BEAUTIFUL TO ME.

>> YOU KNOW, I WAS LIKE HALFWAY THROUGH THE BOOK, I'M A BIT SLOW, WHEN I REALIZED THE DOUBLE MEANINGS THAT HIT ME OF THE TITLE.

"THE WORK OF ART.

"AND THAT IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT THE ARTWORK, IT'S ABOUT ALL THE WORK THAT GOES INTO IT.

TELL ME ABOUT HOW YOU DECIDED TO PICK THAT TITLE AND MAKE THAT THE THEME OF THE BOOK?

>> WELL, THE FIRST TITLE OF THE BOOK WAS "EDITING."

SOMETHING YOU WOULD RECOGNIZE.

>> WELL, YOU, TOO, YOU WERE THE GREAT EDITOR BACK THEN IN OUR DAY.

>> TRYING TO -- AH, THANK YOU.

TRYING TO CLAIM EDITING IN A BROADER WAY THAN WE BASICALLY UNDERSTAND IT, IN TERMS OF MOVING WORDS AROUND, AND THAT SORT OF THING, OR EVEN IMAGES IN A FILM CONTEXT, BUT THEN, THAT JUST SEEMED TOO LIMITED IN WHAT I WAS REALLY AFTER, WAS SOMETHING MORE MUNDANE, WHICH IS THE LABOR, AND WHAT CONSTITUTES THE LABOR OF THE MAKING OF ART.

SOMETHING I WAS DEEPLY CURIOUS ABOUT, AND ACTUALLY HAD A KIND OF OF PSYCHOLOGICAL NEED TO UNDERSTAND.

AS I WAS TRYING TO DO MY OWN ART, WHEN I LEFT MAGAZINES, I TRIED TO BE A PAINTER, STILL TRYING TO BE A PAINTER, AND I KIND OF DIDN'T UNDERSTAND HOW ARTISTS THINK, OR, I FELT I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND HOW ARTISTS THINK, AND I FELT I COULD MAYBE GET AHOLD ON THAT BY TRACING THE ACTUAL WORK, BOTH THE STEPS AND ALSO MORE PARTICULARLY THE SORT OF PSYCHOLOGICAL STATE OF AN ARTIST, AS THEY WORK THROUGH SOMETHING.

SO, EVENTUALLY, THE PUN OF "THE WORK OF ART" JUST OCCURRED TO ME, AND IT WAS JUST EXACTLY WHAT I WAS AFTER.

THE SUBTITLE OF THE BOOK IS, "HOW SOMETHING CAME FROM NOTHING."

AND I WAS TRYING TO UNDERSTAND THAT NARRATIVE.

>> YOU TALK, THOUGH, ABOUT YOUR OWN DISPOSITION, YOU CALL IT -- >> YES.

>> TO BE COLLABORATIVE, WHICH MADE IT A LITTLE BIT HARDER TO BE A PAINTER, I THINK.

>> OH, DEFINITELY, YES.

>> WHAT IS IT?

IS IT DISPOSITION THAT MAKES AN ARTIST?

>> I THINK IT'S A LOT OF QUALITIES.

I THINK THERE'S A DISCIPLINE.

I THINK, FIRST OF ALL, THEY HAVE TO HAVE ACCESS TO THEIR IMAGINATION.

I SHOULD START RIGHT THERE.

THEY HAVE TO BE ABLE -- I MEAN, A LOT OF THE SUBJECTS IN THE BOOK TALKED ABOUT HAVING ADHD, WHICH, I DON'T KNOW WHETHER THAT'S TRUE IN A CLINICAL SENSE, BUT THE BASIC MOVEMENT OF WHAT ADHD SUGGESTS TO PEOPLE, WHICH IS THE DISTRACTABILITY, AND THEN THE HYPERFOCUS ON ONE THING, PRETTY MUCH DEFINED IN A LOT OF WAYS WHAT -- HOW AN ARTIST WORKS.

THEY WONDER AND THEN THEY BEAR DOWN.

AND THE ABILITY TO DO THAT, TO BE ABLE TO SORT OF TRAVERSE THE IMAGINATION AND THEN THE HARD CORE DISCIPLINE, THE WORK OF SHAPING THE THING, WAS KIND OF THE KEY TO ALL OF IT.

AND THEY HAD, JUST TO GET BACK TO EDITING, THEY HAD A TERRIFIC ABILITY TO EDIT THEMSELVES, TO ACTUALLY SEE WHAT THEIR IMAGINATION HAD KIND OF SPEWED OUT, AND THEN TO MAKE VERY STRATEGIC DECISIONS, BASED ON THEIR OWN REACTION TO IT.

>> GIVE ME SOME EXAMPLES OF THAT.

BECAUSE THERE ARE WONDERFUL THINGS IN THE BOOK, MINI-DRAFTS, A WORK OF ART, A STORY ON FRANK SINATRA, IN WHICH YOU SEE THE EDITING PROCESS.

>> YEAH, SO, FOR EXAMPLE, GEORGE SAUNDERS, HE WROTE ALL THESE NOTES TO HIMSELF, WHERE HE WAS KIND OF EVERY VALUE WAITING WHAT IT WAS THAT HE HAD THROWN ON THE PAGE, AND SOMEWHAT RUTHLESSLY CREATING A MAP TOWARD MOVING FROM DRAFT TO DRAFT.

AMY SILLMAN, SHE MADE, LIKE, 100 VERSIONS OF A PAINTING THAT WE TALK ABOUT CALLED "MISS GLEASON," WHERE SHE JUST PAINTED OVER AND OVER AND OVER, REALLY BEAUTIFUL PAINTINGS ON THE WAY TO THIS FANTASTIC PAINTING SHE ENDED UP WITH.

BUT TO SEE ALL OF THE STEPS, TO SEE ALL THE EXAMPLES, TO SEE ALL THE THINGS THAT SHE DESTROYED ON THE WAY TO CREATING, WAS ACTUALLY ALMOST TO SEE AN ARTIST IN ACTION.

IT WAS ALMOST AS IF I WAS MAKING A PICTURE DOCUMENTARY, AND YOU COULD SEE THE MOVEMENT, THE MOMENTS.

AND I TRIED TO RECREATE THAT IN THE BOOK.

I TRIED TO SOMEHOW MAKE THAT NARRATIVE COME ALIVE.

>> YOU KNOW, YOU SET UP A TENSION AT THE BEGINNING OF THE BOOK BETWEEN SORD OF AUDEN, WHO I IS AS, HEY, IT'S A TALENT YOU'RE BORN WITH, AND I THINK IT'S BALDWIN WRIGHT WHO SAYS, NO, NO, IT'S DISCIPLINE, AND THE RIG GOIR, AND AT THE END OF THE BOOK, YOU SEE, YOU HAVEN'T REALLY DECIDED WHICH, BUT AS I GO THROUGH THE BOOK, I THINK I'M ON BALDWIN'S SIDE, IT'S ALL ABOUT THE DISCIPLINE AND THE RIGOR.

>> WELL I -- I THINK YOU NEED BOTH, IS THE THING.

I THINK IT'S HELPFUL.

IT'S AT LEAST HELPFUL TO BE TALENTED.

ONE SHOULDN'T DISMISS THAT FACT, IS THAT THERE'S SOME PEOPLE WHO HAVE AN EASIER TIME AT THIS THAN OTHERS, AND SOME PEOPLE WHO HAVE A KIND OF PERSONALITY THAT ALLOWS THEM TO ACCESS THE ID, IF YOU WILL.

AND -- BUT THEN, YEAH, IT'S LIKE -- IT'S THE ABILITY TO ENDURE FAILURE.

IT -- THIS BOOK IS LITTERED WITH FAILURE.

IT'S ALMOST LIKE A ROAD RUNNER CARTOON.

PEOPLE JUST KEEP FALLING OFF THE CLIFF.

AND THEIR CAPACITY TO PICK THEMSELVES UP, TO HACK THROUGH THE WRECKAGE, AND TO KEEP GOING IS DEEPLY IMPRESSIVE TO ME, AND I -- I THINK THE MARK OF SOMEONE WHO REALLY SUCCEEDS AS AN ARTIST.

>> THROUGHOUT THE BOOK, THE IDEA OF SPIRITUALITY AND FAITH POPS UP EVERY NOW AND THEN, AND YOU ASKED ALL THE ARTISTS YOU SPOKE WITH, WHAT IS THE SOURCE OF THEIR INSPIRATION, AND IT WAS A MUSICIAN, MOSES SUMNEY, WHO GIVES YOU AN ANSWER, IT COMES FROM GOD, ABSOLUTELY.

YOU ADMIT THAT YOU HAD TROUBLE APPRECIATING THE IMPORTANCE OF FAITH.

HAVE YOUR FEELINGS EVOLVED ON THAT, WITH SO MANY PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT THE SPIRITUALITY THAT'S INVOLVED IN ART?

>> WELL, I MEAN, I JUST -- I'M JUST A DEEPLY SECULAR PERSON, AND SO I -- MY OWN UNDERSTANDING OF WHERE THESE THINGS COME FROM HAS MORE TO DO WITH THE SUBCONSCIOUS THAN IT HAS TO DO WITH GOD OR SOME OTHER WORLDLY INSPIRATION.

BUT I THINK BASICALLY WE'RE JUST TALKING ABOUT THE SAME THING.

IT'S THE THING YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND.

AND THERE'S A CERTAIN ACEPTANCE OF THE THING THAT YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT YOU HAVE TO -- YOU HAVE TO COME TO AS AN ARTIST, AND I HAD TO COME TO AS A WRITER ABOUT ARTISTS.

BUT FAITH, THE INTERESTING THING ABOUT FAITH IS THAT IT HAS SEVERAL DIFFERENT MEANINGS.

AGAIN, IT'S -- AND ONE OF THOSE MEANINGS IS FAITH IN YOURSELF.

AND THERE'S A GREAT QUOTE BY WALKER EVANS, THE PHOTOGRAPHER WALKER EVANS, WHERE HE TALKS ABOUT HAVING LEARNED FAITH, AND HE RECOGNIZED THAT FAITH MIGHT BE READ BY OTHER PEOPLE AS A KIND OF EGOTISM, BUT YOU CAN'T MAKE ANYTHING WITHOUT A CERTAIN KIND OF FAITH IN YOURSELF, A KIND OF INNER ABILITY THAT YOU CAN MAKE THIS THING THAT YOU'RE TRYING TO MAKE.

WHICH I ACTUALLY, PERSONALLY, AS A PAINTER, LACK COMPLETELY.

I HAVE NO FAITH WHATSOEVER, I'M TRYING TO GET SOME, AND FAITH DOES COME FROM EXPERIENCE, BUT IT ALSO COMES FROM CHARACTER.

>> YOU ALSO TALK ABOUT SELF-SABOTAGE.

I THINK YOU TALK TO AMY SILLMAN ABOUT IT, AND OTHERS.

EXPLAIN WHAT THAT IS AND WHY THAT'S IMPORTANT.

>> WELL, I DON'T KNOW WHY IT'S IMPORTANT.

BUT IT'S -- IT'S A -- IT'S A FACT THAT THAT I ENCOUNTERED OVER AND OVER AGAIN THAT SOMETHING IN THE MIND IS TRYING TO PREVENT THE ARTIST FROM MAKING THE THING.

THE MIND IS TRYING TO PROTECT THE ARTIST.

IN SOME WAYS.

WE, YOU KNOW, WE'RE ALL VERY GOOD AT PROTECTING OURSELVES FROM A CERTAIN KIND OF PAIN.

AND ARTISTS DO THAT, TOO.

BUT THE CERTAIN KIND OF PAIN IS CLEARLY NECESSARY.

TO THE MAKING OF THE THING.

OR, AT LEAST GETTING IN TOUCH WITH SOMETHING RAW AND MAYBE DIFFICULT.

AND -- SO THE -- SO, THEIR MIND TAKES OVER AND TRIES TO, YOU KNOW, TRIES TO DISTURB THE THING.

AND THAT'S ONE OF THE MANY, MANY THINGS THAT THEY HAVE TO FIGHT THEIR WAY THROUGH ON THEIR WAY TO THE FINISHED WORK.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT THE VIRTUES YOU NEED, BUT YOU ALSO SAY IT'S A COBINATION OF VIRTUES AND FL FLAWS TOGETHER.

TELL ME ABOUT WHO TALKED TO YOU ABOUT THAT.

>> WELL, I HAD A CONVERSATION WITH SHEILA HEADY, WHICH I PUT AT THE END OF THE BOOK, WHICH I THOUGHT SAID IT PRETTY WELL.

SHE WAS SAYING, WELL -- I WAS TALKING ABOUT THIS THING THAT I COULDN'T LET GO OF, WHICH IS, HOW IS IT THAT SOME PEOPLE CAN MAKE ART OR NOT OTHERS, OR OTHERS HAVE MORE TROUBLE WITH IT?

SHE SAID, FOR ME, IT'S JUST THAT I CAN ENDURE TODAY YUM.

I LIKE SITTING AROUND.

I LIKE THE BOREDOM.

AND THERE IS A LOT OF TEDIOUS WORK THAT GOES INTO MAKING KIND OF ALMOST ANYTHING.

AND THEY CAN JUST ENDURE IT, BECAUSE THEY'RE KIND OF BUILT THAT WAY.

AND THEY MAY NOT HAVE OTHER VIRTUES.

THEY MAY NOT -- I DON'T KNOW, YOU KNOW, THEY MAY NOT ULTIMATELY BE KIND.

KINDNESS ISN'T NECESSARILY RELATED TO THE MAKING OF ART, THOUGH EMPATHY CERTAINLY IS.

BUT THEY -- THEY HAVE A KIND OF LIST OF CHARACTERISTICS, WHERE THEY BE VIRTUES OR FLAWS IN OUR OBSERVATION OF IT, THAT ADD UP TO THE CHARACTERISTICS THAT MAKE BEING AN ARTIST POSSIBLE.

>> ONE OTHER UNUSUAL PIECE OF ART IN THE BOOK IS THE EDITOR OF "THE NEW YORK TIMES," DOING A FRONT PAGE OF "THE NEW YORK TIMES," YOU HAVE A FEW FRONT PAGES, BUT ESPECIALLY THE ONES OF WHAT WE LOST IN COVID, AND IT -- ALSO HARKEN BACK TO YOUR "NEW YORK" MAGAZINE DAYS WHERE GRAPHIC DESIGN AND THE VISUAL DISPLAY OF INFORMATION BECOMES A PIECE OF ART.

TELL ME WHAT YOU LEARNED FROM THAT ONE.

>> WELL, OKAY, SO, IN THAT CASE, THE WORK ITSELF THAT WE DISCUSSED WAS A FRONT PAGE, THE COVID LOSS, WHICH, IF ANYONE REMEMBERS THAT FRONT PAGE, AND KIND OF PAYS ATTENTION TO HOW "THE NEW YORK TIMES" TALKS, THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN SHOCKED BY IT.

IT WAS A -- ALMOST LIKE A VIETNAM MEMORIAL THAT SIMPLY LISTED IN TINY, TINY TYPE, THE COVID DEAD.

THIS WAS AT THE MOMENT OF THE 100,000th COVID DEATH IN 2020.

AND THAT JUST SEEMED, AS SOMEONE WHO HAS WORKED AT "THE NEW YORK TIMES" FOR A LOT OF YEARS, EXTRAORDINARY.

LIKE, HOW DOES AN INSTITUTION, ESPECIALLY AS TRADITIONAL AN INSTITUTION AS "THE NEW YORK TIMES," CREATE THIS WITHIN ITS OWN CONTEXT RADICAL WORK THAT WAS, TO ME, CATEGORICALLY NOT A PIECE OF INFORMATION IN THE WAY THAT "THE NEW YORK TIMES" FRONT PAGE IS.

INFORMATION HIERARCHY, JUDGMENT, ALL THAT KIND OF THING.

BUT IT WAS LIKE THE VIETNAM MEMORIAL A KIND OF TRIBUTE THAT WAS AN ARTISTIC WORK.

SO, HOW DID THAT HAPPEN?

AND I TALKED TO DEAN, WHO WAS THE EDITOR AT THE TIME, AND TO TOM BOTKIN, WHO WAS THE CHIEF DESIGNER, ABOUT THE STEPS, WHICH WERE REALLY ORIGINALLY, THEY HAD MADE ALL THESE BABY STEPS, YOU KNOW, WE TALKED ABOUT SOME OF THESE OTHER FRONT PAGES, AT THE BEGINNING, COVID WAS SO HUGE A STORY, AND SO IMPORTANT TO IMPRESS UPON THE READERS ITS EXTRAORDINARY HISTORICAL MEANING, THAT THEY TRIED ALL THESE BABY STEPS.

THEY, LIKE, WHICH -- TOO COMPLICATED TO EXPLAIN HERE, BUT THEY WERE ALL WAYS TO DISTURB OR DISRUPT THE WAY THE FRONT PAGE USUALLY WORKED.

AND THEN THAT EMBOLDENED THEM TO TRY SOMETHING INCREDIBLY RADICAL, WHICH WAS TO DEVOTE THE ENTIRE PAGE TO THIS, IN A -- IN A WAY THAT WOULD HAVE VISUAL IMPACT, AND NOT VERBAL, OR AN IMPACT THROUGH TEXT.

AND EVEN THOUGH THIS WAS TEXT, IT WAS FUNCTIONING.

YOU COULDN'T REALLY READ THE NAMES.

IT WAS FUNCTIONING AS A PIECE OF VISUAL INFORMATION, VISUAL STORYTELLING.

I MEAN, THE BOOK DOESN'T DEAL VERY MUCH WITH THE WAY THE CREATIVITY WORKS IN INSTITUTIONS, BUT THIS WAS ONE EXAMPLE I THOUGHT WAS PRETTY STRIKING, AND I WANTED TO INCLUDE IT IN SOME WAYS AS A COMPLIMENT TO THE TRADITION ALWAYS THAT PEOPLE MAKE ART.

>> DID YOU GET, BY THE END OF THE BOOK, THE ANSWER YOU WERE TRYING TO FIND OUT WHEN YOU BEGAN THE BOOK?

>> I DID, ACTUALLY, HAVE A BREAKTHROUGH, BECAUSE OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN I WOULD TRY TO GET THE ARTIST, THIS IS JUST PART OF MY JOURNALIST TRAINING, YOU'LL RECOGNIZE THIS AS, YOU KNOW, FROM YOUR OWN JOURNALIST WORK, YOU KIND OF WANT A CATHARSIS, YOU WANT SOMETHING TO WORK WITH, YOU WANT, LIKE, THE -- OH, MY GOD, I MADE THIS THING.

I HOPED THAT THE BOOK WOULD BE JUST ONE HUGE AH-HA AFTER ANOTHER, AND IT WOULD HAVE THAT FEELING OF ALMOST LIKE A ROM-COM MONTAGE, WHERE THEY'RE FINALLY FALLING IN LOVE AT THE END.

AND I WOULDN'T GET IT.

NO ONE HAD THAT KIND OF THING WHEN THEY WERE AT THE END OF THEIR WORK.

THEY WOULD FEEL RELIEVED.

OKAY, I GOT SOMEWHERE, OKAY, IT'S FINISHED, OKAY, I'M EXHAUSTED, I'M READY TO DO SOMETHING ELSE, BUT THEY WOULD NEVER HAVE THE, OH, MY GOD, I MADE THIS THING THAT WE ALL RECOGNIZE AS THESE CLASSICS.

THESE BEAUTIFUL MASTERPIECES.

AND WHAT THEY WOULD TELL ME OVER AND OVER AGAIN IS THAT THEY WOULD SAY, YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT -- IT'S NOT ABOUT THE THING THAT I'M MAKING.

IT'S ABOUT THE WORK ITSELF.

IT IS ABOUT THE STRUGGLE TO MAKE THE THING.

THAT'S WHAT GETS ME UP IN THE MORNING.

THAT'S WHAT I GO -- THAT'S WHAT GIVES ME MY SENSE OF -- OF JOY, AND IT ALSO JUST DEFINES ME AS AN INDIVIDUAL, AND THERE WAS SOMEWHERE AROUND THE THIRD YEAR OF WORKING ON THIS BOOK, I FINALLY TOOK IT TO HEART, AND I SAID, YEAH, IT'S ABOUT THE WORK.

AND I BROUGHT THAT BACK TO MY OWN PAINTING, AND NOW, THAT'S HOW I PAINT.

I -- AND AS A RESULT, I'M ACTUALLY PAINTING BETTER THINGS.

BUT THAT'S NOT EVEN THE POINT.

THE POINT IS TO RELISH THE MAKING OF THE THING ITSELF, AND I LOVE THAT.

>> ADAM MOSS, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.