- Coming up next on IGI, a discussion on transparency and the issues presented with the pandemic forcing officials to move public access meetings and hearings to remote platforms, stay with us.

(upbeat music) - [Narrator 1] KNEA empowering educators so that educators can empower Kansas students.

- [Narrator 2] This program is brought to you with support from a Lewis H. Humphreys Charitable Trust and from The Friends of KTWU.

(upbeat music) - Hello, and welcome to IGI.

I'm your host, LeTiffany Obozele I'm sure many of you have conducted or participated in remote meetings this past year.

We now watch legislative sessions, board meetings, city council and county commission meetings and other meetings conducted by public bodies remotely.

When we watch a meeting from home, is it truly transparent if we are not able to see and feel the interactions outside of what is being discussed?

In this episode of IGI, we discuss this issue as part of Sunshine Week for the Kansas Sunshine Coalition.

Sunshine Week is an annual nationwide celebration of access to public information and what it means for our community.

Joining us now via Zoom, to discuss the issues presented with remote access to public meetings are Ron Keefover, Kansas Sunshine Coalition for Open Government.

Phillip Micheal assistant attorney general of Kansas legal opinions in government council division and Sherman Smith journalists for the Kansas reflector.

Thank you all for joining me today on IGI.

So speaking of Sunshine Week, I want to talk about what is celebrated during Sunshine Week, Ron.

- Well, first thanks to KTWU for inviting this panel to speak during what I think is one of the most important weeks of the year when it comes to transparency and government at all levels.

The Sunshine Coalition for Open Government was founded in year 2000 and with the idea that people fear and mistrust the unknown and that Sunshine is the strongest antiseptic when it comes to that fear and mistrust.

You know, my observations over the years is it why public official, a lot of public officials cannot understand how beneficial open government can be.

The Sunshine Coalition approaches this issue from great standpoints in three ways really.

Education, legislation, and sometimes litigation.

In other words, try to educate and inform the public about open government and how they should be able to access records and meetings.

We see legislation that further promotes open government or often will wind up opposing legislation.

That seems to be ever closing doors to open those in Kansas.

And a third way is through litigation.

Where the Sunshine Coalition had been involved in any number of lawsuits over the years since our founding that have led to we think open more open government.

I'd like to give one quick example of that of this whole concept of openness before I turned into my colleagues.

I think most of you in the Topeka area anyway or will recall the Dominic White shooting and subsequent actions involving that situation.

Just the other night, though, there was a video snippet on the television news that showed a firearm being removed from the unfortunately the deceased's pocket.

And that was really, I think the first time that a video that segment resonated with me and it certainly was with my wife who said, all right you know, I don't think I saw that.

Although we had heard that the police suspected he had been armed and all that, I thought, you know seeing that video and seeing the whole circumstances of that incident with probably alleviate a lot of concerns and controversy that arose during four months if there is absolutely no release of any video and very little release of any information to the public and rightfully so there was outrage and there still exists outrage over that incident but being open and transparent can, I think, ease minds whichever side of the fence the person is sitting on.

So again the Sunshine Coalition welcomes this program and the idea concept is helping promote Sunshine in Kansas.

- Phillip, I wanna talk with you maybe a little bit about what the AGs office is trying to do with keeping meetings open in this time of remote meetings.

And so can you take a little bit of time to tell people about the Kansas Open Meetings Act also known as KOMA?

Tell them a little bit about the history, the definition and what types of things it provides for the public.

- Absolutely.

The Kansas Open Meetings Act was first put in place in 1972.

What it did was it expanded upon this idea of openness and which all government entities should be open to the public to observe and observe those meetings for the purpose of making them a little bit more informed about how government works.

So in 1972, Kansas Open Meetings Act was enacted.

And the whole point is to ensure an informed electorate.

So this idea of all public decisions are open to the public.

It's all public discussions are open to the public.

So, in Kansas, we have 3,793 different units of government from your watershed districts all the way up through your state agencies.

So that's 3,793 units of government give or take which ranks us about sixth nationally in terms of total units of government.

All of these entities are subject to the Open Meetings Act.

So the language of the KOMA, which was put in place most of it is still original to the 1970s.

Trying to make that fit now in a digital age is kind of the issue that we're working with.

The idea of open meetings has been around since the beginning of the state.

In 1868 the legislature enacted a statute.

It was KSA Kansas statutes annotated 19-218 which basically stated that every board of County commissioners shall sit with open doors and all members of the public conducting themselves in an orderly manner may attend those meetings.

So since the beginning of the state the idea of open meetings has been in place.

Now, the KOMA in 1972, opened that up and made that a permanent aspect of government.

Certainly the last year has been challenging for all units of government, for my agency for all agencies, for members of the public trying to figure out how to make all of this work with the world that we're living in.

- Okay.

And so Ron was talking about different ways that he was hoping for openness through the Sunshine Coalition.

Can you tell the people watching today about new regulations that have come up for complying with KOMA during an emergency?

- Absolutely.

About a year ago my office started to receive a number of inquiries from both public agencies, members of the public about how best to conduct meetings when the reality of not being able to be physically present together was starting to come to fruition, unfortunately.

So we instituted a regulation versus a temporary regulation, and then as a permanent regulation, it is Kansas Administrative Regulations 16-20-1.

And what it is, it is compliance with the Open Meetings Act during times of an emergency declaration.

So the of this regulation is to provide guidance and requirements that governments need to follow to ensure compliance with the Open Meetings Act when they're making either completely virtually that's where as all members of the governing body of whatever public agency are only meeting via Zoom or WebEx or GoToMeeting, et cetera.

And also it also talks about when members or some members of the public body are able to meet physically present together, but not all members are able to meet physically present together, or members of the public are not allowed to attend in person.

So this regulation discusses both of those aspects.

So the KOMA has not been waived by having an emergency declaration.

So all regards of the Open Meetings Act all requirement of the Open Meetings Act are still, there still are requirements for public agencies to follow.

So this regulation simply enhances on that and clarifies because as I said, the Open Meetings Act was put in place in the 1970s, a lot of languages native to the 1970s.

So what our regulation does is clarify requirements that government agencies need to follow to ensure that they're meeting that are open that the public is able to observe to the greatest extent possible when they're not able to be physically present in the same room.

So our regulation talks about how you make the meeting accessible to the public.

If you're using a web platform you have to provide as a member, as a government agency you have to provide instructions on how to access that platform.

I think we've all gone through the learning curve of figuring out how to access a WebEx or Zoom meeting my audio isn't working.

Log-in doesn't work, those kinds of things.

So it puts that requirement on the government agency to ensure that they're providing instructions on how the public can access that.

Also the reality is not all members of the public have access to the internet.

They just don't.

So if the platform allows them and those platforms do our regulation requires that the public agency make a call-in and number available as well.

And just as simple things as whenever they're conducting the meeting.

our regulation requires the individual speakers to identify themselves.

And the members of the public can tell who this speaking What they're talking about because frankly not all web platforms make it very easy to identify the speaker.

Our regulation also talks about posting meeting agendas, meeting minutes, those kinds of things to make them publicly available, putting them in the room during a public meeting, and really isn't possible if the public's not allowed to be there.

So our regulation attempts to ensure that public agencies know how they should comply with the Open Meetings Act, during a time of emergency declaration.

- Okay.

Sherman, I want to talk with you a little bit about how the legislature has responded to the pandemic with regard to safety and transparency.

- This has been a legislative session unlike any other I think.

The leadership, particularly on the house side I think has taken a lot of precautions to keep people safe by installing social distancing in committee meetings allowing people to testify remotely even allowing lawmakers to ask questions and cast votes from their office by dialing in through the video and like a lot of other government entities.

There's this great thing of having the video on YouTube for the first time now.

So a lot of people who've never been able to make it to the state house.

So I have been able to watch their representatives and senators conducting business for the first time just people who are interested in a particular issue can can see those committee hearings.

And as journalists, it means that if we miss something we can go back and watch it or we can cover something that happened that we missed or two things are happening at the same time.

It gives us that kind of flexibility that we've never had before.

I think the downside has been, losing access to the Senate floor and the house floor where I think for safety concerns, and journalists have safety concerns as well.

And so we understand the need to do this, but to space out staff and lawmakers in those chambers media has been denied access to those chambers for the first time.

And I means, you know, you're you're not there with immediate observation and access to ask questions, as things are happening there is a single fixed video from the sky kind of looking down on the chamber but it doesn't capture everything.

And, you know, there are always questions about what lawmakers are trying to get away with.

Even when people are paying close attention you just kind of wonder what they might try to do with nobody watching.

- You guys ave all talked about different ways that you're trying to be transparent and some concerns you have now that things are remote and you don't necessarily have as much access.

Ron.

I want to start with you.

You sort of started to talk about it but why is it so important for the public to have access to these meetings?

- Well, once again it's the fear and mistrust that people have when they don't know what's going on.

They just, frankly, what are they up to now?

One silver lining in the COVID cloud.

If there is one, in my mind is that committee hearings at the legislature and really other entities of government are now open.

And the Sunshine Coalition for many years had promoted the idea that those committee rooms ought to be video framed.

And we've always met with strong opposition that, "Oh it's going to cost you match, Oh, it's, you know, it's this."

And people in a court setting said he might play to the camera instead of doing the work.

Well COVID has now forced improvements in technology in those committee meeting or committee hearing rooms.

And I think that's a real plus I'm hoping that once the COVID cloud lifts that a lot of those committee meetings will still be available through YouTube or what ever else technologies are available.

The downside of all of that though, as you know I was a journalist for 15 years before I left that to a position with the Kansas courts.

But as a journalist, I got uncovered more information more public information, more stories during the breaks.

Then the agenda items very frequently and that's when, you know, really a County commission meeting and there'll be a break.

And one of the commissioners say, "Hey, commissioner X is getting the highway paved in front of his farm or something."

And, you know, that's where I picked up a lot of stories.

And the same is true in a court setting that attorneys at breaks will often give you information that you wouldn't have otherwise had this by sitting in a proceeding.

So there's an upside and a downside to a transparency with remote viewing.

- Sherman.

I kind of want to talk back with you because you were talking about some of the downsides that you had not being able to be in a room and see people.

So some of these alternatives for attending public hearings in person, how has this impacted you on covering the news?

- I've had some of the same experience that Ron just talked about.

You know, you, you gain so much information just by talking to people directly and finding out, you know who is really pushing this bill behind the scenes or somebody pointing out something that I missed.

Being able to have those conversations about what somebody was really trying to say.

And it's one thing to pull a excitable quote from a debate but to go to that person immediately after and say why did you say this?

What were you really meaning to say?

I mean, those things help inform the stories as well.

Being able to observe, I think just the behavior of people in the room, those are important issues as well.

And I've, you know, I feel like from the public perspective they want to have that interaction with their leaders as well.

There's a school district in Liberal last month on their agenda.

They were considering whether to start livestreaming their school district meetings, the school board meetings and the agenda actually said, you know, we have to be concerned about this because if more people can see what we're doing and what we're saying there might be some more liability here.

So everybody's got to decide how comfortable they are with this.

You know I think when you're making decisions of public interest you should have to look the public in the eye, as you do it.

- Phillips started talking about this a little bit earlier.

He was talking about in the beginning you guys have sort of worked through technical issues during remote meetings.

Are there any upgrades or anything happening at the state house to make public meetings more reliable and transparent?

- They did install cameras in all the rooms which is the first time that we've seen that we've always had not always had but for a few years, we've had the audio stream.

So you could listen.

Now you can actually see, and they have, I think staff that are dedicated to zooming in on individuals to show you who is talking and to identify them in that way.

So that's been the biggest change we've seen from the technology side.

And of course, being able to pull up those archive meetings.

So it's not just seeing it in real time but being able to go back to something that happened three weeks ago, this happened with a Senate bill that passed recently was one that we had missed and didn't really know anything about.

So I could go back to the actual hearing and see the testimony on it.

So that's very helpful.

- Okay.

Now, Phillip, I wanna come back to you.

So you were talking about all the ways that the AGs office as.

Come up with some ways during an emergency to continue transparency to things that people use to be able to come in person too.

So in the future, as the state opens back up, do you foresee any potential limits on what live streams can count for public business by statute.

- You're allowed to have virtual meetings.

You're allowed to have in-person meetings.

I think the legislature would have to, well, frankly pass something in law.

If they wanted to put limitations on the use of live streaming or virtual meetings or if they wanted to ensure that certain meetings had to be done only in-person or in public via live in person.

Right now, I will say one silver lining, frankly as Ron talked about with people having to attend meetings virtually or having the opportunity to attend meetings virtally.

I get a lot of calls from members of the public.

It's one of the roles I have here when somebody calls in and they have a question about open government open meetings or the Kansas Open Records Act.

I've gotten a lot more calls than I anticipated in the last year from people that had never attended meetings before when they were done only in live given it was at a time when there were at work or it was too far for them to drive, et cetera.

Now that they are able to live stream or view on YouTube or be an archive video.

They're actually having questions about their government.

They're wanting to become a little more involved now that they're actually seeing how their local government works.

So, I can't tell you what the legislature wants to do related to whether or not we have more or less virtual meetings or live meetings.

Frankly, I'm trying to be positive here, where in a time in which the world was very difficult over the last year, some people are wanting to become a little more involved in their government now.

So I would, frankly, I don't want it to go away completely.

I miss live meetings.

I really do.

I did the first live training I've done in 364 days yesterday.

So that interaction, just being able to see folks talk to folks, hear what questions they I really have.

Because you know, some of the issues with these live platforms is whatever you're doing this people don't want to ask the question because they don't want to be the one on camera.

Whereas if I'm going out and giving a presentation somebody might come up to me and actually ask the question.

So I missed that kind of thing but I honestly think there's a place for both going forward.

- Okay.

Sherman, do you have anything to add to that about the use of an access to remote opportunities even when there's no emergency - I still have concerns that now like some government bodies have gone a year where they've shut the public out that they will say we don't have to let the public in moving forward, you know from a city council saying, this is gonna be a contentious issue, why don't we just make this an online only meeting so that they can limit the amount of heat that they take to us in the legislature, you know having to fight to regain access to the floor of the Senate and the house in future sessions.

- Okay.

And what about Ron.

- That would be something that the coalition would definitely challenge if there was a meeting underway in a public buildings such as the courthouse and somebody was excluded, just because while you can see it online, I think Mr. Phillips and company would probably have a complaint pouring in from that person or perhaps even the coalition.

So I think that would be something that we would really be on the alert for.

- We do have a precedent from the AGs office that proceeds the pandemic with an opinion that said that you could exclude the public from the Senate chamber because they were being live streamed.

And so that's part of why I would have a concern moving forward.

The government body could rely on that opinion to say, as long as we have a live stream of our meeting we don't have to let the public in here.

- Anything else, we'll start with you Sherman that you want the public to know about going back maybe to having in-person meetings and transparency.

- There's value of both from the public and from a reporting standpoint of having face-to-face interactions with people.

And I do think that it's important to, you know, now that we have access to this technology to keep it in place because that does serve a purpose as well of extending access to people who otherwise could not attend those meetings.

- And Ron.

- I spent a lot of years with the Kansas Supreme court administrative office, and I was just sitting here thinking about the US Supreme Court.

You know, for many years, you cannot even have access to an audio recording of an oral argument.

Now you can turn into C-SPAN, hear the argument live.

There is still, in the role for whatever reason prohibits cameras, but, you know, as C-SPAN records meetings, they pop up pictures of the whatever justice is speaking.

And I think that's the next logical step for the US Supreme court.

But it's a huge difference in my mind that have video as opposed to just audio recording at Supreme court, who is that talking while you can see via C-Span at least, Oh, that's a justice Sotomayor or whoever it is.

And you know, so I encourage the use of this technology particularly at the legislative committee hearings.

That's been such a dark secret where we couldn't find out who introduced bills mtch less how they voted by or even who's speaking when it was just audio.

- Philip.

- The whole point of open meetings, is to be exactly that open to the public.

I believe that both live and in-person have a role in that going forward.

- Well, Philip, Ron, Sherman, thank you so much for spending time with us today and educating people on these issues of transparency and the Kansas Open Meetings Act and the Sunshine's Coalition Week.

So that's all the time we have for this episode of IGI.

If you have any comments or suggestions for future topics please send us an email at issues@ktwu.org.

If you would like to view this program again or any previous episodes of IGI visit us online at watch.ktwu.org.

For IGI I'm LeTiffany Obozele.

And thank you for watching.

(soft music) - [Narrator 1] KNEA empowering educators so that educators can empower Kansas students.

- [Narrator 2] This program is brought to you with support from the Lewis H Humphreys Charitable trust and from the friends of KTWU.