[dramatic orchestra music] ♪ [dramatic orchestra music] ♪ [dramatic orchestra music] - Hello, welcome to "Comic Culture."

I'm Terence Dollard, a professor in the Department of Mass Communication, at the University of North Carolina at Pembroke.

My guest today is writer, artist, publisher, J. David Spurlock.

David, welcome back to "Comic Culture."

- Thank you, Terence, it's very nice to be here.

So David, you have written a new book about the artist, Frank Frazetta.

And I'm wondering, for those who might not know the immense talent of Frazetta, if you could tell us a little bit about who the man was?

- Well actually, I have two new books about Frazetta.

One is about a year and a half old, "Fantastic Paintings of Frazetta."

And the new one is "Frazetta Book Cover Art: "The Definitive Reference."

It just came out, hot off the press.

And sometimes I'll say, barbarians, beasts, and beauties, would be one of the quickest ways to try to put Frazetta genres into a nutshell.

Some people wanna say science fiction.

And he did science fiction, but actually what he did the most of, I would say more accurately is described as heroic fantasy.

Things like "Lord of the Rings," "Game of Thrones," "Conan," "John Carter of Mars."

"John Carter of Mars," is kind of a hybrid of fantasy and science fiction, perfectly fine.

But all of those people will be most familiar with those movies, and Frazetta did influence those.

So, if you appreciate that type of material, heroic fantasy, maybe with a little romantic, or a little science fiction twist, occasionally like "John Carter of Mars," there's Frazetta in that DNA, for sure.

That he goes, he goes back to, first made it really big, started in comics, in the late 40s.

Went into newspaper strips by the early 50s, did a little bit for EC with some of his close friends, like Al Williamson.

But the big shift was in the mid-60s, when he started doing painted paperback book covers.

And that's when we started getting "Tarzan," "John Carter of Mars," and then the "Conan" series.

"Conan" had been around since the 30s.

And was known, kind of a little niche of heroic fantasy, strange stories from weird tales, pulps originally.

But it was the presenter covers that turned "Conan" to a really big hit in the 60s, which inspired Marvel to do a "Conan" comic book, and the combination of a Frazetta covered paperbacks, and then the series of the Marvel bid, together inspired the movie with Arnold Schwarzenegger.

- And it's fascinating, because he is one of these artists, that even if you don't know the name, you know the image.

I'm thinking of the one, it's the barbarian on the horse.

- [J.]

"Death Dealer."

- "Death Dealer."

And that's one of the most-famous images that you see in heroic fiction, like you're saying.

But those who don't read heroic fiction know this image.

So, he becomes somebody who sort of transcends the genre that he's working in.

- Some of the ways that Frazetta exploded past just the book covers.

Even though that was the venue that gave him his initial explosion, though he had been in the business through comic books in the 50s, was some of the pieces were used as rock album covers.

Including "Molly Hatchet."

Frank actually got a couple of gold record awards for "Molly Hatchet" covers.

And the "Death Dealer" piece ran as one of those "Molly Hatchet" covers.

Nazareth also had a Frazetta cover, too.

And these were, these bands were big in the late 70s, early 80s.

And also, there was a huge fad, at least nationwide, in custom vans.

And your custom van really wasn't complete unless you had a painting on the exterior.

And there was no artist that got imitated more than Frazetta.

In fact, I'd really like to do a book, if I could find them, there's probably a lot of custom vans now in wrecking yards now.

If I could get high-res photos, even though it's not actually Frazetta work, it's people imitating, usually with airbrush, imitating Frazetta.

But now and then online, some photos will pop up of some vintage photos of custom vans with Frazetta imitations on there.

And there was a magazine on custom vans, in the middle of that craz.

And they actually interviewed Frazetta.

Frazetta did few interviews.

And you could tell by reading an, almost between the lines that he was hesitant, because, and he finally came out and said it.

They expected him to be very enthusiastic.

And even though it's like, hey, there's pseudo Frazetta, riding down the highways all across America, he's like, "Well you know, "it's people kind of ripping off my art, "it's not really my art, "and I'm not getting paid to do those jobs."

I forget exactly what he said, but he finally came out with that bit of it.

But so yeah, those between the, some of the rock album covers, like bold record ones, those sold like a million copies, two million copies.

The paperback books were selling more like a quarter of a million, 250,000; maybe 300,000, on the upside.

On the lower side, it would be about 100,000.

100,000 to 300,000, depending on what the book was.

So, that built it, and introduced him to a lot of art directors all over, and collectors, and fans.

And people, the broadest swarth of life.

From bikers to historians, there was something inherent in his, I wanna attribute a little bit to his Italian Sicilian bloodline.

And there is a classism in his work.

And it was unusual for illustrators in the 60s, actually, to be working in oils, that's more of a fine art medium.

It's problematic for illustration, because it takes so long for it to dry.

But that was his medium of choice.

He did briefly do some wash paintings, which was an opaque watercolor that was used primarily by illustrators in the early 60s.

But he very quickly went to oils, and oil on canvas.

And those paintings now, he passed away in 2010, but they were already selling for a million and above, before he passed away, and that's unusual for an artist to see his work sell for a million or more, within their lifetime.

- It's amazing, because the art market for original comic art has gone crazy in the last few years.

It's not uncommon for a piece, I know Frank Miller's cover for "The Dark Night Returns, Number One," recently sold for over a million dollars.

It's just amazing that there's an appreciation for comic art.

But the fine art that Frazetta is doing, I'm imagining that is also seeing that exponential growth in value.

- Well, particularly Frazetta.

I wanna say for people who think about this artistic genre, there are many people that came in the wake of his success.

And I think for a younger generation to, weren't around to see it happen in the 60s and 70s, and into the early 80s, they don't, they may see it as a genre, they may like the genre, they may connect it to things like "Lord of the Rings," "The Game of Thrones," and "Conan" movies, and things like that.

But they don't realize that it's so much is tied up with this one person.

Boris Vallejo, Jeffrey Jones, Kim Kelly, Arthur Suydam.

Many, many, many artists that came after him, that was so influenced by what he did.

That went on to Bernie Wrightson, went on to great careers of their own.

But, from a historical standpoint, it's very important for people to realize, it started with Frazetta.

You can say, well Frazetta was influenced by how Foster did the "Tarzan" and "Prince Valiant" newspaper strip, but that was mostly influenced on his pen and ink work.

He never saw Foster's paintings when he was in his formative years.

I published a book on Foster, and I gifted a copy to him.

And he was very moved.

And people gifted Frank, he's royalty, he was artistic royalty.

And people always, anytime someone went to see him, they tend to wanna gift him something.

And, it was very rare for him to really be moved by gift, or want to reciprocate.

But, he was very moved by that Foster book.

And one reason, was because the first time in his life, he's now an old man, in the waning years of his career.

And it was the first time in his life, he ever seen any Foster paintings, which are pretty rare, as opposed to the line art, the newspaper strips he saw as a kid.

Also J. Allen St. John was was the early great Edgar Rice Burroughs illustrator in the 1920s, 1930s, he was an influence on Frazetta.

But Frazetta kind of pumped it up.

More sex appeal, more testosterone, more violence.

But he still had this artistic integrity in it.

It's like he's pushing the limits, he's testing the barriers, he's going beyond the barriers.

But, even people who aren't drawn to those genres, they can see the classicism.

I would say that he viewed his work with such palpable atmosphere.

That even if the proportions were exaggerated, or the creatures were imaginary, he made you believe it through his talent.

- It's one of those things where you look at the artwork, and you don't think of it as commercial art, you think of it as that fine art.

Because there is that sort of approach to it, at least that's what I take from it.

And like you say, Frank's influence is enormous.

Because I'm thinking of the fact that we wouldn't have franchises like "He Man and The Masters of the Universe," without those early "Conan" covers.

That sort of inspired that whole new genre.

So I'm wondering, what is it about Frazetta's work that inspired you to write, not one, not two, but seven books about him?

- It's unique, it's very unique.

I think it's important to recognize the pioneers.

It's kind of like someone can start a revolution, and then once it's propagated, whatever the change is, it's just very important as a historian, as a writer who writes on the subject of the history of illustration, comics, fantasy art, who are the important characters?

I worked for years with Steranko, with Carmine Infantino.

And I head the Wally Wood Estate.

So it's not like I'm just all about Frazetta.

But, he's one of the top talents to come.

In fact in some ways, in comic book art, most of the masters would agree that the highest form of comic book art is not in the rendering style, it's in the storytelling.

It's about the storytelling.

And Frazetta's comics, he did not rise to the top as one of the all-time great storytellers.

You would not compare Frazetta to Will Eisner as a storyteller, or to Steranko, or Wood, or to Kirby.

But some of the qualities that they had, when it came to single images, nobody had the finesse, the dexterity, to go, to hit in the gut with one hand, and overwhelm you with subtleties in other ways.

In his ability to render anything, in ways that you have never seen it before.

So, it's like he started in comics, but then he went larger.

It wasn't that he was looking for that.

There was not a, before Frazetta, there wasn't a clear path from comic book art to newspaper strips, to paperback book covers, to museums.

Frazetta created that path.

And now, all artists can look back and say you know, there's a little tiny video of Frank Miller on the internet of him being surprised, he comes around a corner, and he doesn't know there's some Frazetta originals on the wall.

And he's like physically moved and shocked.

"How is this here?"

And then he says, "This is the great presenter.

"This is what I aspire to."

And you were talking about the record-breaking Frank Miller cover sale, Frazetta has broken that highest-cover original art sale a number of times.

Including the record before the Miller, was a Frazetta.

And I believe that Frazetta broke it again after that, with the "Death Dealer" cover.

That "Death Dealer" cover was originally gonna be a paperback book cover, but it ended up not getting used.

And years later, it finally ran on a comic cover.

So it put it in the running when it sold for a couple of million dollars.

Suddenly, it's the new record comic cover original art, another Frazetta record.

- As a scholar, someone who is influencing the world of art, someone who's influenced by the world of art, how do you put together a book about an artist and get into, I guess, a little bit of biography, but also a lot of analysis of their form?

- You always wanna come up with a good concept for a book, not just a generality.

Especially, Frazetta has been around long enough, and there's been enough books that you're looking for.

When I first got a contract to do, to work with Frank and his family, on doing official Frazetta-authorized books.

The prior publisher, their books were still in print.

And they had some very significant books, "Icon" was one of them, "Legacy" and "Testament."

They had a trilogy of books.

And had a pretty much, the major paintings that most people want.

And then, some rarities to keep the hard-cord, die-hards interested, too.

And good information, and well-produced.

Good design, good printing.

So when I first came in, and even I remember a conversation with Frank and his wife, Ellie.

And Ellie was saying, "Yes, we want you to take over."

And then Frank said, "There's nothing left, "it's all been done, except for some life drawings, "some nude life drawings."

And I said, "I'd be very happy to publish "your nude life drawings, Frank."

And so that kind of turned into a sketchbook.

We didn't do a whole book of the life drawings, but we made it a chapter, and we did two volumes of sketchbooks.

The vast majority of those spaces had never been published before.

A lot of them were prelims for works for oil paintings that people do know.

But the sketches themselves, have never been published before.

So that's, we found a way to do something new and different there.

And we showed a little different from some sketchbooks, is we showed the previously unpublished piece, the preliminary, or the sketch, and if it is from a known finished piece, we would show that for comparison, as well.

But we would focus primarily on the previous unfinished piece.

Our recent "Fantastic Paintings of Frazetta" book was a big hit, and a lot of people got turned onto it.

I did that working very closely with Frank Frazetta, Jr. And the Frazetta museum in East Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania.

We hit a broader audience there, then we had with the earlier sketchbooks.

Some of the comments were, "Oh, it's great to see all of his classic paintings "back in print, but we'd like to see some rarities."

And sometimes social media, wherever, we said, "Well, you should check out our sketchbooks, "they're almost all previously unpublished."

And, we'd blow their minds, they're like "What?

"Two whole books of unpublished, "previously unpublished Frazetta?"

Different concepts.

The newest one that just came out on book covers.

A lot of people don't realize it, they now see these paintings in all types of places, and don't realize what was the original version.

Another interesting thing about Frank was, he got his originals back.

And he was kind of a pioneer in there.

Illustrators prior, sometimes they would get them back, sometimes they wouldn't, sometimes they were more interested in doing the next job and getting paid, then worrying about the originals.

And all of the paintings weren't things that they ever expected to hang in a museum, or something like that.

But Frank had a lot of faith in his work.

And a lot of confidence, and he did want those paintings back, and he got them back.

And a lot of times, we work them a little bit more after they'd been published, on the same painting, sometimes very significantly changed them.

The only way to see the original version now, is to look at that first printing.

So in the new book, we have, we're focused only on his book cover paintings that he did specifically for book covers.

No matter where someone may have seen them since, if it ran on a rock and roll album cover, or it ran on a poster, or whatever, a lot of times they've seen the updated version, and people haven't seen the original version.

So, we're presenting every one of them in chronological order, so you can watch to see if he's evolving as an artist.

And so, that's interesting.

And you can see where he goes from the gouache paintings into the oils.

And then, there's hardcover paintings as well.

So that's a new unique concept for the book there, is only the book covers, as they originally appeared, and then the two sketchbooks.

We have one that specializes, he's very famous for beautiful women.

We have one called "The Sensuous Frazetta."

There was a short period in the early 60s, before he started doing the paperback book cover paintings.

When he was leaving comics, he actually worked with Al Capp on "Lil Abner."

And then, they split up.

A lot of the comics publishers he had worked with in the 50s had gone out of business.

And he was having trouble briefly finding work.

And someone had turned him onto a publisher that was doing kind of some cheap cheesecake paperbacks for men, and he'd do about four drawings, ink wash drawings, per paperback for that.

And so, we collected all those.

Those paperbacks now sell for a couple of hundred dollars apiece as collectibles.

And they're hard to find, because people don't know what they look like, the covers aren't by Frazetta, but the interiors are.

So we collected all of those, and around the same time he did some rare mens' magazine illustrations, and we included those.

And then he did a lot of movie posters.

And a lot of those were, you can see the sensuous quality evolve of women in movie posters, were really fabulous.

And so, we collected all that material into one book.

So, that's called "The Sensuous Frazetta."

So the main thing is, first get a good concept that hasn't really been to put it a particular perspective on the subject matter, that hasn't quite been covered before, and cover it better, or more than it's ever been covered before.

- Yeah, if you're working on a book cover, are you working on the standard sizes, or are all of his pieces going to be different sizes, just depending on what his inspiration was?

- Frank tended to work on fairly inexpensive, what they would call academy, or school-grade canvas board.

Instead of a stretched canvas, it's canvas wrapped around a heavy cardboard.

And not particularly large sizes.

Sometimes people will imagine paintings that became fabulously important, like the "Death Dealer," or the first "Conan" painting, they almost expect them, because their importance has grown over the years, they expect them to be giant, and they're not.

They're maybe a foot and a half by two feet.

And most of his paintings are somewhere in that neighborhood, but with a nice frame around them, they look really good in the Frazetta Museum in Pennsylvania.

And, I recommend that people go and visit, and see some for yourself.

After he was doing very, very well, sometimes he would work larger, or work on stretched canvas.

And sometimes he worked on Masonite.

And he would actually let the texture or color of the Masonite show through parts of the painting.

There's one that's pretty famous called "Neanderthals."

It's a group of neanderthals coming towards you out of the mist.

And that one is on Masonite.

And so the speckly texture in the warm rustic burnt umber speckly background color, that's the actual Masonite.

But one of the largest he did was "King Kong."

He really liked "King Kong."

It was the original "King Kong" film was one of his favorites.

And he was supposed to, he was commissioned to do the move poster for the remake of "King Kong."

For very large jobs like a movie poster, it's not unusual for a big studio to hire multiple illustrators.

And you don't know until the end, which one they're gonna go with.

And they did not use Frazetta's, he was very upset about that.

But, it was used later on, there's a paperback version of the script, that was released as a book.

But that painting, because it was meant to be a larger poster, he did the painting larger.

And there's a photo of Frank and I together in front of that painting.

So that one's three or four foot tall.

Whereas most of them are two foot tall at the most.

As you're putting together this book, and you have to deal with some of the images that are changed.

I mean, the original paintings you said Frank would modify and improve over time, so how do you get quality prints of the original that you could include in the book?

- When we're presenting it as art, or presenting just the art, then other than running the current state, it kind of turns into a bit of archeology.

Trying to find a vintage transparency.

And the old technology of printing color images, they would tend to photograph a painting as a color transparency, and then they would scan that before desktop computer technology, the current technology.

So you have that intermediate of the color, instead of like most people are familiar with, like a 35 millimeter slide, that's a transparency.

So you'd have a four by five, or maybe an eight by ten color transparency.

That would be of higher quality then a small 35 millimeter slide.

So, sometimes we can find something like in over time, the color may have shifted, they may have dust, scratches.

It's a meticulous work, cleaning them up, restoring them to their original glory.

And we've done that work frequently.

But in the new book, the total intent is to show it perfectly in the historical context as a historic artifact.

So we are actually scanning and reproducing the exact published covers.

And that's kind of tricky on itself, but that's what we did.

And most people think we did a very good job.

- Well David, they are telling me that we are out of time.

If people wanted to find out more about your work on Frank Frazetta, how can they find you on the web?

- Vanguardpublishing.com, or Vanguard Productions on Facebook.

- David, thank you so much for taking time out of your schedule to talk with me, it's been a great half-hour.

- Thank you so much.

- And thanks to everyone at home for watching "Comic Culture."

We will see you again soon.

[dramatic orchestra music] ♪ - [Announcer] "Comic Culture" is a production of the Department of Mass Communication, at the University of North Carolina at Pembroke.

[dramatic orchestra music] ♪ - [Student] Only at UNCP Pembroke can you find what makes you special.

- [Student 2] We are mission-focused, service-minded, and grounded in our unique heritage.

- And most importantly, you would find who you are, and what you love, and who you want to become.

- With NC Promise Tuition Plan, it's all more affordable than you might think.

[upbeat music] - Discover your passions.

- It's all at your fingertips to explore, and it starts right here, at UNC Pembroke.

[lively music]