♪ (heroic music) ♪ ♪ ♪ - Hello, and welcome to Comic Culture.

I'm Terence Dollard, a professor in the Department of Mass Communication at the University of North Carolina at Pembroke.

My guest today is an absolute legend, Jaime Hernandez.

Jaime, welcome to Comic Culture.

- Well, thank you for having me.

- Now, you are part of one of the great American comics, Love and Rockets.

You and your brothers started this series in the 1980s.

And throughout the years, you've been doing the stories of just some really dynamic characters.

So I'm just wondering, how do you sustain these characters that started off as sort of like a sci-fi to something where they became these realistic women who have grown and aged just the same way you and I have?

- It all started that I was throwing my whole life into the comic book, the first issue.

And so what did I grow up with as a kid?

Science fiction, comics, monster movies.

And then when I got older, I got into punk rock and stuff.

So I just threw everything in there.

And I really didn't have a game plan.

And I didn't really know what I was doing.

And I kind of just threw everything in there.

But as the issues went by, as they started to build, I started to get an idea of what I liked and what I didn't care about.

And the dinosaurs and the rockets started to please me less.

And I liked the characters.

I really liked doing the characters.

So I started to want to do the characters living in their Southern California town, like mine.

And I wanted to tell stories about that more than the whole rockets thing after a while.

So that stuff just dropped out.

And the characters kept going.

And the characters started to write themselves.

And they took off from there.

And they started telling me what to do.

- What I love about your work is that, yes, you can see all of these different things.

And certainly, in the earlier books, you can see it's kind of like I'm going to put it all into the soup.

But once you start to refine that recipe, the stories become poignant.

They become something where it's not quite a soap opera, but there is that soap element.

And you're able to do it with this beautiful artwork.

So not only are you a brilliant artist, you're a brilliant writer.

As you are sort of putting together this comic that becomes, I guess, this ongoing story, how are you sort of seeing your progression going from the punk rock scene, let's say, where we see Hopi in a band, or something where we have, let's say, Penny Century, who's marrying Herve, who's got the horns.

So you've got this crazy visual style.

So how do you sort of refine that from something that, on the surface, looks almost like an Archie comic, but really has a lot more depth going on?

- I just-- I think of it in real life first, first, or like a movie.

I picture it like a movie.

I don't picture it like lines on paper.

The lines on paper only do the job of getting the image out there.

But I'm picturing them moving.

And that's how I learned to write, was like, how am I going to get these 20 lines to seem like they're alive kind of thing?

And it started to kind of be a fun task of like, oh, boy, how am I going to do this?

How am I going to pull this off?

And I don't picture them like a comic book.

I picture them like a film.

And then I put it down like that.

And so I've learned a lot of tricks to make it feel like it's alive kind of thing.

Because with a comic panel, you only have so much movement going on.

And I don't know.

And so that's how I've been doing it this whole time.

I don't even think about it while I'm doing the work anymore.

- Looking at your work, it's amazing how dense a page can be.

I mean, we look at a contemporary comic, and if there's four panels on the page, it seems like, wow, the artist is really working.

And yet on a lot of your work, it's anywhere from nine, sometimes 12 panels.

On a day when maybe you're feeling a little lazy, it's only six.

But there's all this life going on.

So when you are sitting down and putting the story together, how long is it taking you to do a single page?

- It takes the whole issue to do a single page.

Basically, I'm doing all the pages at once.

I jump around.

And so the page isn't finished till the comic's finished, I guess you'd say.

Part of me is looking at a page and going, is there enough on that?

Maybe I should add some detail.

Maybe I should do this.

Maybe I should do that.

If I have two people talking, sometimes I need smaller panels because I try to make them talk in real time, which is also a trick to doing that.

So the panels come with what's most important in the action.

If I do six panels, it's because I need more room for the reader to see where they are and what's going on and things like that.

And then sometimes you've got just talking heads, so you can make the panel smaller because you really-- the setting and the background don't mean much.

You just can have the two heads going back and forth.

I mean, maybe someone's lighting a cigarette or they're scoffing or something, but you can do that in a small panel.

Over the years, I've relied on the words telling me where to go, the comic balloons or bubbles, as they call them.

People say, how did you know how to construct this one panel of three people doing something?

And I say, well, I just follow the balloons.

Who's talking first?

Who's talking second?

Who's talking third?

And I kind of line them up.

And when I'm at the next panel, I have to keep-- sometimes I have to keep them in the same spot.

So I have to figure out, ooh, so this person's not talking anymore, so I have to show just his back or something because I'm turning the camera around the room.

And so it's kind of fun.

It's kind of hard sometimes.

But just I think it all starts with the words more than the art.

And that's when I realized I'm more of a storyteller than an artist.

Because all my life, I was like the kid who could draw in school or whatever.

So I thought, well, I'm the artist guy.

I'm not the novel writer guy or anything like that.

And then one day, I just said, oh, I guess I'm not an artist first.

I'm more a storyteller than that.

And I kind of thought that was kind of cool because it just made me seem like I was taken more seriously, I guess.

- Now, you say that you don't finish a page until the book is done because you're kind of dancing around.

So are you planning out the issue?

Are you planning out an arc?

Or is this something where some artist will-- I'm starting on page 1, and I don't know what I'm going to get by page 10.

Or is this something, again, where you're kind of seeing, this is the story I want to tell.

This is kind of how I'm going to do it.

And you just start putting those pieces together.

Or are you kind of writing out that script first and kind of knowing that you're going to jump around that way?

It depends on what's important in the story.

Like, OK, I have a very important ending in this one.

All this other stuff is secondary.

But I got to get from point A to point B. And so I'm constantly like, OK, I'm going to need a lot of story for this one.

And then sometimes that's why it gets more cramped, the storytelling.

And then sometimes it's like, well, you mean, oh, boy, I get to do fluff for the first five pages before it gets serious.

Sometimes it's that.

And then sometimes I'm so sick of my writing that while I'm doing the comic, I go, ah, forget it.

Let's make her go to the store and just buy a Coke or something.

You know, just has nothing to do with anything.

But it kind of still leads toward that important part.

So yeah, it all depends on the action, what's going on, what I'm leading to, who's going to die, who's going to break up with their partner.

And getting there is sometimes the hard part.

That's the easy part.

The other, let's say, the breakup between two people is the easy part, because I already have that figured out, what's going on there.

But before that, I go, how is this going to work as the way humans work, you know, getting from here to here?

And I don't know.

I'm sorry.

It's basically, you know, I have one thing to tell in this story.

The rest of it revolves around it.

And I can build character that way.

I have room to make characters show themselves, you know, show their personalities and things like that, as long as it doesn't change that important ending or, you know, whatever.

And sometimes it does change it, though, because I'm having more fun with the journey, you know.

And I go, well, the ending isn't that important anymore.

OK, what do I like about that ending?

What can I save for that ending?

OK, well, maybe they're not going to break up after all.

Maybe they're going to go to the movies, you know, or something.

And so it's kind of like whoever gives me an idea first, meaning the characters, they get to tell the story, because they're the ones who have a story for me.

I've had to do this for deadlines, because, you know, our comic doesn't come out that fast.

But I do want it to come out regularly.

And sometimes I just say, OK, who's got a story for me?

And it's usually, like, my main character, Maggie, because she writes herself.

She writes herself better than anybody.

And so that's why there are so many Maggie stories.

And I didn't plan that, but it's something that she was first in line waiting to tell her story.

And so that makes me not sit around for two years trying to figure out some kind of plot or something.

And it's just all worked out, because I treat it very organically.

And it's like, well, this works.

And it still feels like I meant it, you know, like I had it planned.

I kind of have this quirky talent, or I can make mistakes work, you know?

And that saved me plenty of times.

- Well, it's almost like jazz in a way, because you're kind of just listening to what the other players are doing and reacting, rather than waiting for the conductor to tell you, you know, we have to play this particular note.

And I just want to talk about your characters a little bit, because you've got great characters that have unique personalities.

They're almost like actors, and you are just merely directing them, because that's how unique they are.

So as you are working with the different actors in your scenes, they all have their own unique body language, their own unique way of doing.

So is this-- again, this is that organic thing where the character just shows you that they want to sit a certain way at the restaurant.

They want to put their foot up.

They want to hold the cigarette up high, as one character at an art gallery complains about.

Or is this something where, you know, it's just, again, you know that these are the characters, and they just kind of speak through you?

- I guess all of it.

Yeah.

I know that if I put certain characters in a situation, they're going to change the narrative because of the dynamic and their personality.

Sometimes I have to change a character.

I go, well, this character cannot be in this scene, because if they're in this scene, it's going to go on for five more pages.

I only need this to go for one or two pages.

And but this character is just going to swallow it up and take it somewhere else.

And that's fine, but sometimes I don't have the space for that, or sometimes it's not going to lead to a satisfying ending for me, you know?

So yeah.

And then sometimes I feel bad, like, oh, I didn't get to have her dancing around, or lighting a cigarette, or having a drink, or something.

Oh, I didn't have space for that.

Oh, well, I'll get it next time.

That's the good thing about these characters recurring all the time.

If I don't get to show off their best side, I can the next time.

- Your comic is filled with quiet moments.

It's filled with loud moments.

So when you are having two people talk at a dinner table versus having two people talk at a punk rock concert at a bar versus pro wrestling, women's pro wrestling, which features a lot into your work, how do you sort of jump around from those quiet moments to those really loud moments, and those loud moments of different varieties?

Because in comics, at least American comics, we think of Batman fighting the Joker.

That's that loud moment.

But your loud moments are more human.

So how are you kind of balancing that all out?

- It's the character telling me what to do.

I could tell this one character that I'm using has been going through a tough time, and they're starting to boil.

And I go, OK, so if I put them in a certain situation, they're going to explode and destroy the whole scene.

That works for some characters.

I don't know if this is answering the question.

But-- and it's kind of like we were talking about how I know these characters so well, I go, OK, I'm going to put these two in a room together.

Let's see what happens.

And then sometimes I go, oh, no, no.

This explosion with the characters, I had that recently.

So maybe I should hold this scene off or rewrite it a different way.

And then that's when I go, OK, I'm sorry.

You're cut out of this scene.

I need someone more stable.

And it's cool.

It works for me.

And it all seems so like everything was on purpose.

But sometimes it's just like, well, I just thought that character is going to ruin it.

So she's out, or he's out, or let that other one in.

I leave it up to them to tell me what to do, because I know them so well.

I know some characters more than others, other characters.

So then there are certain characters I can work with that, well, this person can lose their cool, because they're the-- or they don't have to lose their cool.

It's just some of the characters can go both ways.

But some are just doomed to destroy things, which that kind of character is fun to write.

But it doesn't always work for a particular story.

- Now, I do want to talk a little bit about your art, because it is, like I said, it's one of the most beautiful art styles in all of comics.

And I was thinking about this earlier this afternoon.

We think of the Jack Kirby's.

We think of the Neil Adams.

We think of those folks being on the Mount Rushmore of great American comic artists.

And I think you would certainly belong there.

And I'm looking at your art style and the fact that you came around at a time when comics were getting more accepted in the mainstream.

And I think you were in the documentary Comic Book Confidential.

And it's taking on this whole patina of respectability.

But at the core of this, you are a gifted cartoonist.

So I'm wondering, is this something that you are self-taught?

Is this something where you attended the finest art schools?

Or is this just something that, through repetition, you've just gotten to this level where you're just that good?

- I'm mostly self-taught, partly because I grew up with four brothers and a sister who all drew.

So there was that kind of thing going on.

Like, oldest brother drew best, then the next brother.

And I had to find my-- being a middle child, I had to find my place.

And for some reason, I don't know how, I just kept drawing.

I just kept doing it.

A lot of my siblings backed out of drawing.

And I remember being like 15, 16 years old.

And I remember looking at my art, just drawing superheroes or whatever, and going, wow, I've reached the point where I can draw exactly anything I want to.

And the key word is want, because no, I don't want to draw the Manhattan skyline.

No, I don't want to draw a tractor.

You know, it's like that.

But if I had to, I can.

I have the ability.

And that was when I was kind of comfortable with myself in drawing.

But then when I got older and I started going to junior college and I took art classes, I learned a lot from them.

They rounded the corners for me.

And it was a good experience for me.

I didn't know it at the time.

I just thought, well, I'm taking art classes again, because I don't want to take math or English.

And it just-- the art came through.

And I kind of just busted wide open.

But I don't know why.

It was just something that I liked doing.

And I had no explanation.

And people kept telling me, wow, you're a good artist.

And I was like, OK, well, thanks.

Now let me get back to work.

Yeah, it just came about.

And it was all generic.

And I mean, not generic, organic.

And it's just something.

And it's something I never thought about for a long time, because it would waste my time.

And I thought, no, I'm just going to trust my instincts.

And I'm just going to do it.

And I'm going to keep doing it.

And every time I came to a challenge, I would say, well, I can draw that.

I can do that.

I know how to do this.

The hard part was I hate research.

I hate researching.

Boy, do I hate researching.

So I fake a lot.

If you look at all the cars in my comics, 99% of them don't exist.

But I want to make you believe it does.

I mean, even if everything's wrong, the buildings are wrong, there's no such thing as a building that looks like that or something.

But I just want to convince the reader that they know where they are.

That's the more important part than getting a Toyota Corolla correctly, drawing it.

It's more like, OK, you see them.

They have a car, and they're outside.

The weather helps a lot.

And being from Southern California, a lot of it is just sky.

And warm most of the time.

And I kind of just took advantage of that and said, well, as long as I can create the illusion that the reader knows where they are, hopefully that'll help the storytelling.

And it's gotten me through a lot of binds.

- One of the great things is that you don't need to know that it's that Toyota Corolla.

You just need to see it's a car.

And it could look generic.

And I think that's what works, because we're focusing on the story and not on all the details in the background.

It's not like watching a TV show that's set in the 1950s, and suddenly there's a Toyota Prius in it.

We're not going to get pulled out as long as everything is consistent.

I do want to say, and I'm going to fanboy out a moment, yours is one of those comics that from the moment I saw it, I was hooked.

I had a friend, Alan, who took me to see Comic Book Confidential.

And it's just been a real treat getting to speak to you this half an hour.

And I thank you so much for your time.

- Oh, well, thank you.

Thank you for having me.

Thanks for making me look good.

- I'd like to thank everyone at home for watching Comic Culture.

We will see you again soon.

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