>>> THE POWER OF LOVE AND COMMUNITY AS WE HAVE JUST BEEN TALKING ABOUT IN THE FACE OF TRAGEDY, CAN NEVER BE UNDERESTIMATED.

OUR NEXT GUEST, IS EXPLORING THIS HOPE AND AMENITY IN HIS NOVEL.

JAMES McBRIDE, ONE OF PRESIDENT OBAMA AND OPRAH'S RECOMMENDED AUTHORS.

HE HAS NOT RELEASED THE HEAVEN AND EARTH GROCERY STORE.

HE JOINS WALTER ISAACSON, TO DISCUSS HOW ONE LOVE TRIUMPHS OVER EVIL.

>> THANK YOU.

WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> YOU HAVE SAID IN THE PAST, THAT THERE IS A LOT OF PRESSURE ON THE FIRST SENTENCE OF THE NOVEL.

LET ME READ YOU THE BEAUTIFUL ROLLING ACTION OF YOUR NOVEL.

THERE WAS AN OLD DUDE WHO LIVED ON THE SITE OF THE OLD SYNAGOGUE.

THIS WAS ON CHICKEN HILL, IN THE TOWN OF POTTSTOWN, PENNSYLVANIA.

THEY FOUND THE SKELETON AT THE BOTTOM OF THE OLD WELL OFF OF THE STREET.

THE OLD HOUSE WAS THE FIRST PLACE THEY WENT TO.

TELL US ABOUT THE SENTENCE.

WHY DID YOU USE IT TO SET UP THIS COMPLEX, BUT BEAUTIFUL NOVEL?

>> THE SENTENCE REALLY CAME AT LUCY'S I WROTE THE BEGINNING OF THE BOOK.

IT WAS ESSENTIALLY DONE.

I'M ALWAYS BIG ON THESE FIRST SENTENCES.

WHEN THEY WROTE TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD, WHEN HE WAS 12, MY BROTHER, JIM, BROKE HIS ARM.

EDGAR ALLAN POE, TELLTALE DEATH OF THAT GREAT AGONY.

THE FIRST SENTENCE IS VERY IMPACTFUL.

THE READER HAS TO DECIDE THAT THEY ARE IN THE LIBRARY.

THEY HAD TO DECIDE WHETHER THE STORY IS GOING TO BE ENOUGH TO DRAW THEM IN.

THE BOOK BEGINS AND PUSHES INTO A GREAT DEAL OF JEWISH LIFE DURING THAT PERIOD.

MANY PEOPLE DON'T PAY ATTENTION TO IT.

I WANTED TO DRAW ATTENTION TO THAT AS WELL.

IT JUST SEEMED LIKE A GOOD PLACE TO START.

YOU HAVE THE CONFLICT THAT BEGAN RIGHT THERE.

>> IT WAS A CONFLICT THAT INVOLVED MANY STRANDS OF COMMUNITY.

THIS INCLUDED THE BLACKS AND THE , ALL GOING THROUGH THAT.

YOU HAD A BLACK FATHER.

YOU HAD A WHITE MOTHER, YOU FOUND OUT WHEN YOU WERE A TEENAGER, WAS ORTHODOX JEWISH, AND CONVERTED TO CHRISTIANITY.

>> A LOT.

I WAS INTERESTED IN JEWS, IN EARLIEST 20th CENTURY AMERICA.

I WENT TO SUFFOLK, VIRGINIA.

I RESEARCHED THE TOWN WHERE MY MOTHER GREW UP.

MY MOTHER'S FAMILY, THEY WERE ORTHODOX JEWISH.

THEY HAD A GROCERY STORE IN THE JEWISH SECTION OF TOWN.

I RECALL INTERVIEWING A LOT OF THE RESIDENTS FROM THAT TOWN.

I REMEMBERED HER FAMILY, MY PARENTS, AND HER GRANDMOTHER IN PARTICULAR.

I WAS STRUCK BY THE BUSINESS OF HOW MUCH ANTI-SEMITISM EXISTED IN THE SOUTH DURING THAT TIME.

I WAS A YOUNG MAN AT THE TIME.

I DID NOT BELIEVE IT.

I FOUND IT TO BE INCREDIBLE.

I COULDN'T SEE WHAT IT WAS.

AS I HAVE GROWN OLDER, I COME TO UNDERSTAND HOW DIFFICULT THE JOURNEY WAS.

I COME TO UNDERSTAND THAT ANTI- SEMITISM, IT NEVER REALLY WENT AWAY.

>> WE HAD A GREAT CHARACTER IN THE BOOK, JONAH.

I ASSUME IT IS PRETTY MUCH BASED ON YOUR GRANDMOTHER?

>> PRETTY MUCH.

SHE INSPIRED THAT.

MY GRANDMOTHER, LIVED IN THE SOUTH.

THE HUSBAND THAT SHE HAD DID NOT REALLY LOVE HER.

SHE DID NOT HAVE A LOT OF LOVE IN HER LIFE.

>> SHE SPOKE YIDDISH?

>> OH YES, SHE SPOKE YIDDISH.

MY GRANDMOTHER, WHO I NEVER MET, LIVED A VERY DIFFICULT LIFE.

SHE WAS BORN IN POLAND.

SHE CAME HERE AS A YOUNG MOTHER WITH MY MOTHER, AND MY UNCLE.

>> IN THE BOOK, IT WAS SOMEWHAT THAT WAY, RIGHT?

>> SHE WAS HAPPY.

SHE HAD A HUSBAND WHO LOVED HER.

SHE WAS ABLE TO ACCEPT ELEMENTS OF AMERICAN LIFE THAT MY GRANDMOTHER EVER GET TO EXPERIENCE.

HAD NOT AN OUNCE OF BITTERNESS OR SHAME.

I THINK THAT WAS HER SENTENCE.

YOU SAY SOMETHING LIKE THEY WERE AMERICAN.

EXPLAIN WHAT YOU MEANT BY THAT.

>> I DON'T WANT TO INSULT PEOPLE WHO ARE JEWISH.

MY GRANDMOTHER, [ INAUDIBLE ].

I'M JUST TALKING ABOUT MY CHARACTERS.

NOT JEWISH PEOPLE ACROSS THE WORLD.

IN THIS CASE, BEING AN AMERICAN, WAS NOT A GREENHORN.

MY MOTHER USED TO TALK ABOUT THE FACT THAT SHE WAS CONSIDERED GREENHORN.

SHE WAS NEW TO AMERICA.

SHE HAD NOT BEEN HERE.

SOME OF THE JEWS IN MY MOTHER'S LIFE WHO HAD BEEN HERE, HAD NOT AGREED UPON THEM.

THEY HAD SEPARATED SOME OF THE OLD WORLD WAYS.

THEY HAD ACCEPTED SOME OF THE NEW WORLD WAYS.

AT MOST, SHE HAD NOT ADOPTED THEM.

>> THERE IS A CHARACTER IN THE BOOK.

I THINK THAT MEANS MESSENGER FROM GOD.

YOU HAVE THEM SAY TO THEM IN THE BOOK, WE ARE INTEGRATED INTO A BURNING HOUSE.

WHAT YOU MEAN ABOUT THE BURNING HOUSE?

>> I AM CALLING HIM MALACHI.

HE DID NOT LIKE AMERICA.

HE WAS A VERY ORTHODOX JEWISH PERSON.

HE COULD NOT ACCEPT THE WAYS OF AMERICA.

HE FELT LIKE JEWISH PEOPLE FROM THE NEW COUNTRY, COMING TO AMERICA, ADOPTING AMERICAN WAYS, LEAVING BEHIND THE YIDDISH LANGUAGE, AND SO FORTH, MATERIALISM AND GREED, WOULD ONLY LEAD TO SUFFERING.

HE LEAVES.

THAT IS WHO I MET.

HE HAPPENS TO HER THAT WHEN HE WAS LOOKING AT A GROUP OF BLACK WORKERS.

THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT IT.

IT WAS THE INTEGRATION, AND AMERICAN SOCIETY.

>> YOU SAY THAT IN THE BOOKS.

YOU HAVE THIS NEW BOOK.

IT SHOWS THE COMPLEXITY OF BLACK AND JEWISH RELATIONS.

OVER THE PAST FEW CENTURIES, HAS BEEN COMPLEX.

YOU MAKE IT SEEM LIKE IT CAN WORK WHEN YOU THROW TOGETHER.

EXPLAIN THAT.

>> WHEN LOUIS ARMSTRONG DIED, HIS MUSIC WENT AROUND THE WORLD.

REMEMBER LEADING THE LOUIS ARMSTRONG STORY.

HE NEVER FORGOT THE KINDNESS OF THIS JEWISH FAMILY THAT HE WORKED FOR WHEN HE WAS A KID IN NEW ORLEANS.

THAT STAYED WITH HIM.

IN MY OPINION, THE KINDS THAT THEY SHOWED HIM, THEY CAME OUT IN THE MUSIC THAT WENT AROUND THE WORLD.

IT IS REALLY SIMPLE.

IF YOU DECIDE THAT THAT IS WHAT YOU WANT TO PAY ATTENTION TO, I REMEMBER WHO I WORKED FOR.

THEY WERE COOL.

I HAD TO MAKE IT.

MY MUSIC IS ABOUT WHATEVER.

HE UNDERSTOOD WHAT WAS IMPORTANT.

TO THE END OF HIS LIFE, HE WAS ACCESSIBLE TO ALL PEOPLE.

>> WHAT WAS INTERESTING, IS THAT THEY GREW UP IN THE SAME NEIGHBORHOOD.

WE ARE ALL IN THE SAME NEIGHBORHOOD.

ARE THEY GOING TO MAKE IT MORE DIFFICULT?

>> THE ANSWER TO THAT, IS THAT IT HAS NOT BEEN MORE DIFFICULT.

WHEN INTEGRATION WAS HAPPENING IN SCHOOLS, AND YOU START SEPARATING THE RICH FROM THE POOR, NO MATTER WHAT COLOR THEY ARE, THE COMMUNITY THAT YOU ARE CREATING, IS A COMMUNITY WHERE CREATIVITY IS DEAD.

PEOPLE ARE DIFFERENT, COMING TOGETHER.

THEY REALIZE THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THEM, ARE THE DIESEL FUEL, OR THE ELECTRICITY, THAT POWERS THE MOTOR.

IF YOU ARE SMART ENOUGH, RAISING RIGHT, YOUR RESPECT IS DIFFERENCES, AND CELEBRATING THEIR OWN AS YOU FEEL LIKE IT.

THIS IS GREAT, ABOUT OUR CREATION FROM THESE IMPULSES.

IT COMES FROM COMMUNITY.

IT IS REALLY ABOUT A COMMUNITY.

WHEN YOU ARE REALLY TRYING TO WORRY ABOUT, IF MY NEIGHBOR MAKES A MISTAKE WITH ME, ONE OF US IS BIG ENOUGH TO SAY THAT WE MADE A MISTAKE.

WE GO.

IF YOU ARE IN HER WORLD, THE COMMUNITY DOESN'T EXIST.

IT IS A DIFFERENT SITUATION.

THIS IS NOT THE PLACE THAT WE NEED TO FUNCTION CORRECTLY.

THE NEIGHBORHOODS ARE NO LONGER LIKE THE ONES OF CHICKEN [ BLEEP ].

PEOPLE ARE THROWN TOGETHER.

>> THERE IS A LOT MORE INTEGRATION THAN PEOPLE REALLY PAY ATTENTION TO.

IN SOME WAYS, WE ARE NOT REALLY PAYING ATTENTION TO THE YOUNG PEOPLE.

SOME OF IT IS OUR FAULT, AND NOT THE FAULT OF THE INTERNET.

IT DOES HAPPEN.

HEAVEN AND EARTH GROCERY STORE TAKES PLACE IN THE 30s AND 40s.

THE STORY IS ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED IN THE 30s AND 40s.

WE ARE NOT HEARING THOSE STORIES.

WE HEAR THEM OCCASIONALLY WHEN SOMEONE COMES UP WITH A BOOK, OR A FIRST-PERSON NARRATIVE ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED.

MY MOTHER'S WORDS ABOUT WHAT HER LIFE WAS IN THIS SMALL, JEWISH TOWN, HAS THOSE STORIES HAPPENING.

WE JUST WANT DOCUMENTING THEM.

>> TO WHAT EXTENT DO YOU DO HISTORICAL RESEARCH?

I KNOW YOU LOOK AT THE STORY ABOUT YOUR MOTHER.

DO YOU TRY TO BE A RESEARCHER WHEN YOU WRITE A NOVEL?

>> OH YES.

MY BACKGROUND WAS AS A JOURNALIST.

MOST OF HEAVEN AND EARTH GROCERY STORE DID NOT TAKE LONG.

IT TOOK MAYBE 15 YEARS TO RESEARCH.

I STARTED RESEARCHING THIS BOOK IN 2008.

I ALWAYS WANTED TO WRITE A BOOK ABOUT THE CAMP FOR DISABLED CHILDREN BUT I WORKED AT.

IT DID NOT WORK OUT.

INSTEAD, IT BECAME THIS BOOK.

I SPENT YEARS WORSE FOR WEAR, RESEARCHING IT.

A LOT OF LIBRARIES AND HISTORICAL SOCIETIES, HAVE DIFFERENT INTERVIEWS.

THEY HAVE THE REAL MEAT OF THE STORY.

YOU ONLY USE 10%, WHEN YOU COME UP WITH THAT MOST OF THE TIME.

>> YOU ARE TRYING TO SAY THAT DURING YOUR COLLEGE SUMMERS, HE WORKED AT THE VARIETY CLUB CAMP FOR HANDICAPPED CHILDREN?

FIRST OF ALL, THERE IS A DEAF CHILD IN THE BOOK.

TELL ME ABOUT HIM.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT CAMP.

THAT SEEMS IMPORTANT TO THIS NOVEL.

>> THEY REALLY CAME FROM THE VARIETY CLUB EXPERIENCE.

A DODO IS A DEAF CHILD THAT COMPLETELY LOSES HEARING AS A RESULT OF AN ACCIDENT.

HE DOESN'T WANT TO GO TO SCHOOL ANYMORE BECAUSE HE CAN'T BLACK CHILD IN THE 1930s.

THIS IS IN PENNSYLVANIA.

HIS UNCLE AND AUNT WHO WERE TAKING CARE OF HIM, TAKE HIM TO HER, AND ASKED THEM TO HIDE HIM FROM THE STATE, BECAUSE THEY WERE TRYING TO PUT HIM IN A MENTAL INSTITUTION.

THAT IS WHERE THE CONFLICT PUSHES THE BOOK, AND THE NARRATIVE ALONG.

IN REAL LIFE, WHEN I WAS WORKING AT THE CAMP FOR HANDICAP OF DISABLED CHILDREN, OR SO-CALLED DISABLED CHILDREN, I MET MANY KIDS LIKE HIM.

IN ALL WALKS OF LIFE, AND ALL WALKS OF DISABLED LIFE, WHEELCHAIRS, CRUTCHES, CEREBRAL PALSY, EVERYTHING.

IT WAS RUN BY A MAN THAT WAS INSPIRATIONAL.

HE WAS AN INSPIRATIONAL DIRECTOR OF THE CAMP.

I ENDED UP WRITING ABOUT THIS TOWN.

>> WHY CAN HE WRITE A BOOK ABOUT CAMP?

WHAT WAS SO HARD?

>> EVERY CHAPTER THAT I WROTE, SOUNDED LIKE A CAMP BOOK.

A LOT OF KIDS GET UP.

THAT'S REALLY WHAT IT WAS.

IT WAS NOT REALLY LIKE THAT.

IT WAS REALLY ABOUT EQUALITY.

THAT IS WHAT WE HAVE.

THEY WERE THE CHILDREN AND THE TEACHERS.

IT WAS A DIFFERENT TRUCE.

THAT IS REALLY WHAT HAPPENED.

WE ARE ALL OVERWORKED, AND UNDERPAID HIS CHILDREN, THEY HAD NO BARRIERS.

THE CHILDREN WERE WHITE, BLACK, JEWISH, CATHOLIC, LATIN, THEY HAD NO BARRIERS.

I COULD NOT WRITE A BOOK ABOUT IT.

IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE TO SHOW HOW LOVE WORKS AMONGST THIS CHILDREN BASED CAMP.

>> EXPLAINED THAT.

>> THEY NEED TO MAKE THE WORLD BETTER.

THIS IS WHAT YOU MUST DO.

THEY HAVE NEVER SAID THOSE WORDS TO ME.

THEY HAVE JUST LIVED IT.

>> THIS IS A CONCEPT.

IT ALMOST SEEMS TO BE THE MISSION OF YOUR NOVEL.

THIS INCLUDES YOUR LATEST NOVEL.

IS THAT TRUE?

>> THAT WAS GOD'S PURPOSE FOR THE BOOK.

I WANT PEOPLE TO LOVE EACH OTHER.

I DO WANT TO SAY WE SHOULD LOVE EACH OTHER.

YOU GET OUT THE WAY OF THE STORY.

YOU LET THE PEOPLE IN THE CHARACTERS HEAL THE WORLD.

YOU LET THEM SHOW WHAT IS POSSIBLE.

WHEN YOU SHOW YOU WHAT IS POSSIBLE, YOU ARE NOT TELLING THEM TO DO IT.

THEY ARE SHOWING THEMSELVES I MISS THEM TALK.

I MISS HEARING THEM GET AWAY WITH THEIR FRIEND.

I MISS THOSE PEOPLE.

PEOPLE I LIKE, EVEN IF I WOULDN'T AGREE WITH WHAT THEY SAID ALL THE TIME, THAT IS IT.

>> ARE YOU WORRIED ABOUT THIS BOOK ENDING?

YOU ARE WORRIED THAT YOURS CAN BE HORRIBLE SUNDAY?

>> LET THEM BE IN THE BOOK.

IF THEY BEEN IT, MORE PEOPLE COME TO IT.

YOU CAN STOP REAL FREEDOM.

THEY CAN SAY ALL THEY WANT.

AT SOME POINT, THE HATE ENGINE RUNS OUT OF DIESEL FUEL.

I AM NOT SCARED OF ANY OF THAT.

THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE.

THE TRUTH IS, IT TAKES A LOT OF ENGINE TO RUN THE HATE MACHINE THAT IS PUSHING AGAINST BOOKS.

ALL YOU NEED IS ONE LIBRARY AND TO PULL THE BOOK OUT, AND SLIP IT TO SOMEONE.

YOU CAN BELIEVE ME, THEY ARE SLIPPING BOOKS AROUND.

IF YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT HEROES, THOSE ARE THE REAL HEROES.

I'M NOT WORRIED ABOUT IT.

I DON'T LIKE IT.

IF THIS IS WHAT IT IS, THEN LET IT WAGE.

IN THE LONG RUN, THESE BOOKS WILL FIND A PLACE.

YOU AND I ARE TALKING ABOUT IT.

EVEN THOUGH LOTS OF PEOPLE ARE AFRAID TO TALK ABOUT IT, WE KNOW WHAT THE BATTLE IS.

IF YOU HAVE A CANCER, BUT THEY COME OUT.

WE NEED THESE BOOKS.

THESE BOOKS NEED TO BE IN PLACE.

WE WILL FIND A WAY TO PUT THEM WHERE THEY BELONG.

IF I AM ON THE BOOKLIST, GOOD.

IT IS ONLY GOING TO MAKE MORE PEOPLE COME TO IT.

I WANT TO BE ON THE SIDE.

PUT MY NAME IN ALL CAPITALIZATION LETTERS.

IT IS TIME TO START BEING NOT MEEK ABOUT THIS.

>> I APPRECIATE YOU.