REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM >>LORENE: HELLO, I AM LORENE MILLS AND WELCOME TO REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

OUR GUEST TODAY IS JAMIE, JAMES MCGRATH MORRIS, THE FAMOUS, NEW MEXICO'S BEST BIOGRAPHER AND WE ARE CELEBRATING YOUR NEW BOOK ABOUT TONY HILLERMAN.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>>JAMES: YOU ARE VERY KIND TO SAY THOSE THINGS ABOUT IT, BUT I WOULDN'T MISS BEING ON THIS SHOW.

>>LORENE: I KNOW, WELL I WOULDN'T MISS HAVING YOU, I HAVE WAITED WITH BATED BREATH FOR THIS.

SO THE NEW BOOK, TONY HILLERMAN: A LIFE , IS LIKE, FOR ME IT WAS LIKE COMING HOME.

I HAVE READ MOST OF TONY'S BOOKS AND THEY ARE LIKE SO DEEP IN ME TO FIND OUT ALL THE BACKGROUND AND ALL THESE AMAZING DETAILS.

IT WAS LIKE LEARNING FAMILY HISTORY IN A WAY, SO I AM VERY, VERY GRATEFUL.

BUT BEFORE WE LET TONY REST FOR A MINUTE.

>>JAMES: OKAY.

>>LORENE: AND I WOULD LIKE YOU, SO YOU ARE A BIOGRAPHER.

>>JAMES: CORRECT.

>>LORENE: AND A WRITER OF WHAT IS CALLED NARRATIVE NONFICTION, WHICH IS VERY, VERY POPULAR NOW.

WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO?

>>JAMES: WELL BIOGRAPHY IS DICTATED BY WRITING A STORY OF SOMEBODY'S LIFE AND THERE ARE CERTAIN CONSTRAINTS, WHICH YOU ARE FACED WITH, BUT I USE NARRATIVE NONFICTION TECHNIQUES IN WRITING A LIFE.

BASICALLY, NARRATIVE NONFICTION IS STEALING THE BEST IDEAS OF OUR NOVELISTS, WE CAN'T MAKE ANYTHING UP, BUT WE CAN USE THEIR WRITING STYLE, THEIR FORESHADOWING AND ENDING A CHAPTER LEAVING YOU HANGING.

ALL THOSE METHODS THAT WORK IN FICTION CAN BE USED IN NONFICTION.

SO I TRY AND I DON'T KNOW IF I SUCCEED IN APPLYING THOSE METHODS WHEN I AM WRITING A PERSON'S LIFE TO LOOK AT A PERSON'S LIFE AS HAVING PEAKS AND CRISES JUST AS WE DO IN A NOVEL, TRYING TO BUILD UP TO THEM, TRYING TO HAVE DENOUEMENT, ALL OF THOSE THINGS OUT OF A PERSON'S LIFE.

>>LORENE: WELL, THAT'S WHY THEY ARE SO GOOD.

>>JAMES: THANK YOU.

>>LORENE: NOW, YOU WON'T BRAG ABOUT YOUR AWARDS, BUT YOU DID GET SOMETHING CALLED THE BIO AWARD WHICH IS SOMEONE WHO HAS MADE A MAJOR CONTRIBUTION TO THE ART AND CRAFT OF BIOGRAPHY.

AND YOU WERE ALSO THE PRESIDENT OF?

>>JAMES: BIOGRAPHER'S INTERNATIONAL FOR A YEAR OR TWO.

WELL, IT IS AN ODD AWARD FOR ME BECAUSE I AM THE LEAST FAMOUS PERSON ON THE LIST.

BUT BOB CARO, STACEY SCHIFF, ALL OF THE GREAT BIOGRAPHERS THAT RECEIVED THIS AWARD.

IT IS DIFFERENT, IT IS NOT FOR A BOOK, IT IS FOR SOMETHING YOU HAVE DONE TO ADVANCE THE ART AND CRAFT OF BIOGRAPHY.

AND IN MY CASE, I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN A MENTOR AND AN ORGANIZER AND SO I HELPED CREATE THIS ORGANIZATION THAT NOW HAS MEMBERS ALL AROUND THE WORLD WHO GET TRAINING AND INSTRUCTION AND ALL KINDS OF THINGS OUT OF IT.

>>LORENE: WELL, LET'S LOOK AT SOME OF YOUR BOOKS.

>>JAMES: OKAY.

>>LORENE: BECAUSE YOU ARE QUITE PROLIFIC, AND THEY ARE ALSO DEEP, I REALLY WANT TO COMPLIMENT YOU.

TELL US ABOUT SOME OF YOUR EARLIER WORK.

>>JAMES: WELL ACTUALLY MY FIRST BIOGRAPHY IS THE ROSE MAN OF SING SING , WHICH IS A LIFE STORY OF A VERY FAMOUS NEW YORK CITY EDITOR WHO AT THE END OF HIS LIFE MURDERS HIS WIFE AND IS SENT TO SING SING WHERE HE GROWS ACRES AND ACRES OF ROSES.

THAT BOOK CAUGHT THE ATTENTION, THERE'S A EUPHEMISM IN PUBLISHING, WHEN YOU READ THAT SOMEBODY IS A CRITICAL SUCCESS, THAT ALSO MEANS THE BOOKS PROBABLY DIDN'T SELL.

BUT IT CAUGHT THE ATTENTION OF AN EDITOR AT HARPER COLLINS WHO BASICALLY COMMISSIONED ME TO WRITE A BIOGRAPHY OF JOSEPH PULITZER AND THIS BOOK IS THE ONE I BECAME KNOWN FOR.

SO, FOR INSTANCE WHEN I DID THIS BOOK ON HEMINGWAY AND DOS PASSOS, THEY STICK BY THE "AUTHOR OF PULITZER" ON THE COVER.

>>LORENE: RIGHT, RIGHT.

I LOVED THAT BOOK SO MUCH.

>>JAMES: THANK YOU.

THE JOKE, OF COURSE, IS THAT IT IS THE ONLY WAY I GOT THE WORD PULITZER AND MY NAME ON THE SAME BOOK COVER.

AND THE BOOK I MAY BE THE MOST PROUD OF IS EYE ON THE PRIZE, WHICH IS A BIOGRAPHY OF ETHEL PAYNE, A BLACK CIVIL RIGHTS REPORTER FROM THE 1950S, WHO BECAUSE OF THE ENDURING LEGACY OF SEGREGATION MOST WHITE AMERICANS KNEW VERY LITTLE ABOUT THE SIGNIFICANCE OF HER WORK.

>>LORENE: WELL, NOW WE HAVE THE TONY HILLERMAN BOOK.

NEW MEXICANS DO NOT NEED AN INTRODUCTION.

>>JAMES: NO, THEY DON'T NEED AN EDUCATION ON HIM.

>>LORENE: THE LA TIMES SAID THAT "TONY HILLERMAN REINVENTED THE MYSTERY NOVEL AS A VENUE FOR THE EXPLORATION AND CELEBRATION OF NATIVE AMERICAN HISTORY, CULTURE AND IDENTITY."

THAT IS THE LA TIMES AND BY THE WAY, YOU, I THINK, MENTIONED, I DON'T KNOW WHO SAID THIS, THAT HILLERMAN DID FOR NAVAJO COUNTRY WHAT RAYMOND CHANDLER DID FOR LA.

SO IT'S A REMARKABLE CONTRIBUTION THAT CHANGED OUR WORLD SO VERY MUCH AND IT CHANGED NEW MEXICO SO MUCH.

>>JAMES: IT DID.

>>LORENE: BY REALLY INTEGRATING AND ACKNOWLEDGING THE BLESSINGS, THE WONDERFUL QUALITIES, YOU SAID, "IF ONLY MORE CHRISTIANS WOULD BEHAVE ACCORDING TO NAVAJO PHILOSOPHY AND METAPHYSICS THEN WE WOULD HAVE A BETTER WORLD."

COULD YOU START WITH, THIS IS SOMETHING THAT IS SO INTERESTING TO ME THAT ONE EARLY INCIDENT IN TONY'S LIFE, TONY HILLERMAN'S LIFE, RIGHT AFTER THE WAR, KIND OF THE SEED THAT WAS DROPPED.

>>JAMES: IT WAS A SEED, YOU'RE RIGHT.

>>LORENE: TELL US ABOUT HIS DRIVING THE OIL TRUCK.

>>JAMES: WELL HILLERMAN HAD GROWN UP IN IMPOVERISHED CIRCUMSTANCES IN A TINY TOWN IN OKLAHOMA CALLED SACRED HEART.

AND LIKE MANY OTHER YOUNG MEN WHEN WORLD WAR II BROKE OUT, THEY EITHER ENROLLED OR WERE DRAFTED FOR SERVICE.

HE WENT TO FIGHT IN EUROPE IN THE AREA, NORTHERN FRANCE, IN ALSACE AND HE WAS WOUNDED SO SEVERELY THAT IT WAS ALMOST A FATAL WOUND BY STEPPING ON A LANDMINE.

SO IN AUGUST OF 1945, BACK IN THE STATES, STILL WITH A PRONOUNCED LIMP, AN EYE THAT DIDN'T FUNCTION QUITE COMPLETELY, OFTEN USING A CANE, HE GOT A JOB BEFORE ENROLLING AT THE UNIVERSITY OF OKLAHOMA DRIVING OIL EQUIPMENT ACROSS TO NEW MEXICO.

FIRST TIME HE HAD BEEN IN NEW MEXICO, I MEAN PROBABLY THE FIRST TIME HE HAD BEEN WEST OF ANYTHING EXCEPT FROM OKLAHOMA.

AND WHEN HE ARRIVED AT THE SPOT HE SAW NAVAJOS CROSSING THE ROAD IN REGALIA OF SOME SORT AND HE ASKED THE MAN TO WHOM HE WAS DELIVERING THIS EQUIPMENT WHAT WAS GOING ON.

AND HE SAID, "THEY ARE HOLDING AN ENEMY WAY."

AND TONY ASKED WHAT IS THAT, AN ENEMY WAY AS EXPLAINED TO HIM, IS A CEREMONY TO HELP TO KIND OF CLEANSE THE RETURNING SOLDIERS FROM ALL OF THE HORRORS THEY HAVE SEEN IN THE WAR AND THESE WERE TWO NAVAJOS WHO HAD SERVED IN THE MARINES.

AND HILLERMAN ASKED IF HE COULD GO TO THAT CEREMONY AND THE GUY SAID YOU PROBABLY COULD JUST AS LONG AS YOU ARE NOT DRUNK OR CAUSE ANY PROBLEMS.

SO THAT NIGHT HILLERMAN WENT AND WATCHED PART OF AN ENEMY WAY AND IT CONNECTED WITH HIM BECAUSE HE WAS A DAMAGED KID, I MEAN IT WASN'T JUST PHYSICAL, HE HAD WHAT WE NOW UNDERSTAND TO BE PTSD.

AND THAT CEREMONY REALLY STUCK WITH HIM AND HE REMEMBERED FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE EVERYTHING FROM THE SPARKS FROM THE FIRE TO THE SONGS AND HE WENT BACK OF COURSE TO OKLAHOMA WENT TO THE UNIVERSITY OF OKLAHOMA.

SO LATER WHEN HE CAME OUT TO NEW MEXICO AND LATER AFTER BEING A JOURNALIST AND SITTING DOWN TO WRITE THESE BOOKS, IT IS NOT COMPLETELY A SURPRISE THAT THE BACKDROP HE WOULD CHOOSE WOULD BE THE NAVAJOS.

>>LORENE: WELL HE DOES WRITE ABOUT THAT EXPERIENCE SO PROFOUNDLY AND ONE OF THE QUOTES YOU HAVE AT THE BEGINNING IS HOW ONE SMALL EVENT IN THE PAST WILL AFFECT THE FUTURE SO MUCH BECAUSE IT WAS A GATEWAY FOR HIM.

>>JAMES: IT WAS.

>>LORENE: TO THE NAVAJO REALITY, THE NAVAJO WORLD.

SO, THIS IS KIND OF EASY FOR ME TO ANSWER BUT I AM GOING TO ASK YOU WHY YOU CHOSE TONY AS A SUBJECT.

I MEAN, HOW COULD YOU NOT, YOU HAVE MANY OTHER OPTIONS.

>>JAMES: YOU'RE RIGHT.

SOMETIMES I DESCRIBE WRITING A BIOGRAPHY AND CHOOSING A SUBJECT IS MUCH LIKE DATING AND THAT SOMETHING HAS TO CONNECT, BECAUSE IF YOU ARE GOING TO SPEND THREE OR FOUR YEARS LIVING WITH SOMEBODY'S PRESENCE IN YOUR HOUSE IT IS AN ALL-CONSUMING EVENT.

IT HAS TO BE SOMEBODY THAT FASCINATES YOU AND REWARDS YOU.

NOW I HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT SOME PRETTY AWFUL PEOPLE, BUT THEY FASCINATED ME.

HILLERMAN HAS A NICE QUALITY OF BEING REALLY A GOOD SOUL, SO IT WAS ALWAYS PLEASANT TO SPEND TIME WITH HIM.

BUT THEN YOU ALSO HAVE TO MAKE A CASE FOR WHY SOMEBODY DESERVES A BIOGRAPHY.

YOU KNOW THERE ARE A LOT OF WRITERS OF DETECTIVE BOOKS WHO DON'T HAVE BIOGRAPHIES SO WHY WOULD TONY HILLERMAN DESERVE ONE OVER SOMEBODY ELSE?

AND THE REASON I OFFERED TO MY AGENT AND MY EDITOR IS THAT TONY HILLERMAN ACCOMPLISHED SOMETHING SIGNIFICANT IN WRITING HIS BOOKS.

THE FIRST IS THAT HE REALLY CHANGED FUNDAMENTALLY THE GENRE OF MYSTERIES.

MYSTERIES HAVE NEVER BEEN THE SAME SINCE HE BEGAN, IN THAT IF YOU WENT INTO A BOOKSTORES IN THE 1970S AND LOOKED AT THE SHELF, YOU WOULD PROBABLY FIND ONLY MALE WHITE PROTAGONISTS AND THEN A COLLECTION OF FEMALE PROTAGONISTS, USUALLY WOMEN, OLDER WOMEN, IN SMALL ENGLISH TOWNS SOLVING CRIMES.

THE INTRODUCTION OF NAVAJO DETECTIVES WAS REALLY STARTLING AND OPENED UP THE FLOODGATES TO THE IDEA THAT JUST LIKE OUR SOCIETY IS DIVERSE, THE DETECTIVES AND CAST OF CHARACTERS CAN BE.

BUT THE OTHER THING THAT HILLERMAN DID THAT WAS SO SIGNIFICANT AND NOT NECESSARILY OBVIOUS, IS BY USING THE NAVAJO CULTURE AND SPIRITUALITY AS THE SETTINGS FOR HIS BOOKS, HE WAS IN HIS WORDS, A "REVERSE MISSIONARY" SHARING WITH THE WORLD AT LARGE, OUTSIDE OF THE NAVAJO NATION, ALL OF THE ASPECTS OF THE NAVAJOS THAT HE THOUGHT SHOULD BE CELEBRATED AND HE TREATED THEM WITH ENORMOUS RESPECT IN PASSING ON THIS INFORMATION.

SO HE ACCOMPLISHED THESE THINGS AND I THINK HE DESERVED A BOOK TO TELL THE STORY.

>>LORENE: YOU ALSO MENTIONED THAT HE WAS A GOOD MAN AND YOU HAD SAID THAT HE NEVER STEPPED ON ANYBODY ON THE WAY UP.

>>JAMES: YEAH.

>>LORENE: AND WHEN HE WAS SUCCESSFUL HE REALLY BENT OVER BACKWARDS TO HELP STRUGGLING WRITERS AND TO HELP LIBRARIES AND TO HELP EVERYONE.

>>JAMES: WELL TONY AND HIS PARTNER, HIS WIFE, MARIE, WERE, I SAY, PARTNER BECAUSE THEY REALLY ARE TEAM PLAYERS.

IT IS AN EXTRAORDINARY COMBINATION IN THEIR MORAL COMPASS AND THEIR VIEW OF THE WORLD.

INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH, THEY WERE RAISED IN TWO SEPARATE TOWNS IN OKLAHOMA, BUT TAUGHT BY THE SAME ORDER OF NUNS, SISTERS OF MERCY.

AND SISTERS OF MERCY HAD THIS FOURTH VOW AND THE VOW WAS TO BE OF SERVICE AND BOTH HILLERMANS, MARIE AND TONY, TOOK THAT REALLY TO HEART.

AND SO EVERYTHING THEY DID IN LIFE WAS CAREFULLY MEASURED FROM THAT.

I TELL A WONDERFUL STORY TOLD BY HIS SON, TONY HILLERMAN, JR., ABOUT THEM DRIVING HOME, THIS WAS LONG BEFORE HILLERMAN HAD A LOT OF MONEY AND THEY WERE ON THE HIGHWAY AND HILLERMAN PULLED OVER BECAUSE THERE WAS A CAR BROKEN DOWN.

THE JOKE OF COURSE, IS HILLERMAN KNOWS NOTHING ABOUT CAR ENGINES BUT NONETHELESS HE WENT OVER AND HE SORT OF LOOKED AT THE ENGINE, TALKED TO THE GUY AND THEN HE REACHED INTO HIS WALLET AND GAVE HIM A WAD OF MONEY AND GOT BACK IN THE CAR.

AND TONY JR. SAID TO HIS DAD, "WHY DID YOU GIVE THAT MAN THE MONEY?"

HE SAID, "HE PROBABLY NEEDS IT MORE THAN WE DO."

AND THAT IS THE KIND OF THING THAT GUIDED HIS LIFE.

AND SO LATER WHEN HE BECAME VERY WEALTHY AND I MEAN MONEY WAS POURING IN FROM THESE BOOKS, HE REALLY ANSWERED ANY CALL FOR CHARITABLE CONTRIBUTIONS COMING FROM THE NAVAJO NATION.

THEY WERE USUALLY TIED TO RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATIONS, BUT HE ALSO DID NOT WANT THE WORLD TO KNOW.

HE THOUGHT IT WAS INAPPROPRIATE TO CELEBRATE YOUR CONTRIBUTIONS, SO BY LUCK AND SOME PAPERWORK THAT I DISCOVERED, I WAS ABLE TO DOCUMENT JUST A LITTLE BIT, THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG, BUT IT DEMONSTRATES THE KIND OF DEEP CHARITABLE WORK THAT BOTH HE AND MARIE DID.

>>LORENE: YEAH AND AGAIN TO DO IT PRIVATELY, TO DO IT REALLY TO HELP, NOT TO GET ANY CREDIT FOR IT OR NOT TO SAY, WHAT A NICE MAN, JUST TO MAKE SURE AND THERE ARE SO MANY NATIVE AMERICAN PROJECTS THAT HE SUPPORTED SO GENEROUSLY.

HE DID WRITE HIS OWN AUTOBIOGRAPHY AND I THINK ONE OF THE DIFFERENCES YOU POINTED OUT AND I WOULD LIKE YOU TO TELL ME ABOUT THIS, WAS THAT THE WAR WAS A VERY HARD EXPERIENCE FOR HIM AND HE USED WRITING HIS AUTOBIOGRAPHY HIMSELF AS A CHANCE TO EXORCISE THOSE SPIRITS.

>>JAMES: I THINK SO, A LOT OF PEOPLE WRITE MEMOIRS AS AN ATTEMPT TO, YOU KNOW, PROCESS WHAT THEY HAVE GONE THROUGH.

AND WHEN I REALIZED HOW MANY PAGES HE DEVOTED TO THE WAR, I THOUGHT IT WAS A SIGNAL TO ME MANY YEARS LATER, PAY ATTENTION TO THIS, READERS, IT REALLY WAS IMPORTANT TO ME.

HIS MEMOIR IS ALSO DIFFERENT FROM MY BOOK BECAUSE WHAT I AM DOING IS DOING RESEARCH AND FACTUAL BASED REPORTING, THE KIND OF THING TONY WOULD HAVE DONE IF HE WAS REMAINING A JOURNALIST.

BUT THIS REALLY WAS DEPENDENT ON HIS MEMORIES.

SO IT IS FILLED WITH TONS OF EMOTIONAL MEMORY THAT IS ACCURATE, BUT FACTUALLY IT IS OFTEN SOME LITTLE DISCREPANCIES THAT I HELPED FIX UP.

>>LORENE: WELL AND I THINK YOU SAID THAT THEY DIDN'T HAVE A COPY EDITOR TO CLEAN IT UP.

>>JAMES: SOMEBODY DROPPED THE BALL ON THAT.

>>LORENE: YEAH AND IT IS CALLED SELDOM DISAPPOINTED BECAUSE... >>JAMES: WELL, BECAUSE HIS DAD BROUGHT HOME A WATERMELON, A FAMOUS BLACK DIAMOND WATERMELON THAT IS FAMOUS IN OKLAHOMA, IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE VERY SWEET AND HE WAS SWEATY FROM CARRYING IT HOME AND WHEN HE ARRIVED IN THE YARD, IT SLIPPED OUT OF HIS HANDS AND BROKE INTO LITTLE PIECES.

AND HIS MOTHER SAID, "THOSE WHO EXPECT LITTLE IN LIFE ARE SELDOM DISAPPOINTED."

>>LORENE: WELL, WE ARE SPEAKING TODAY WITH JAMES MCGRATH MORRIS ABOUT HIS BEAUTIFUL BIOGRAPHY OF TONY HILLERMAN.

AND IT IS TRUE, HE WAS OF A DISPOSITION SO THAT HE WAS KIND OF EVEN KEELED, SELDOM DISAPPOINTED, AND ALWAYS WILLING TO HELP, TO DO THE RIGHT THING.

I DO WANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT HIS DAUGHTER, ANNE, ANNE HILLERMAN, HAS PICKED UP THE MANTLE AND CONTINUES TONY'S BELOVED CHARACTERS JOE LEAPHORN AND JIM CHEE AND NOW BERNADETTE MANUELITO AND SHE IS ON HER SEVENTH BOOK NOW.

PEOPLE WERE SO GLAD TO KEEP THESE CHARACTERS ALIVE.

>>JAMES: WELL WHAT SHE HAS DONE IS REALLY UNIQUE, I MEAN THERE ARE MANY WRITERS WHOSE CHILDREN BECAME WRITERS.

JOHN CHEEVER, ONE OF MY FAVORITE NOVELISTS, AND TWO OF HIS KIDS WRITE BOOKS.

BUT WHAT ANNE HAS DONE IS SHE HAS CARRIED ON THE ACTUAL FRANCHISE, THE ACTUAL CHARACTERS AND THAT IS AS FAR AS I CAN FIND REALLY A UNIQUE THING.

AND THE OTHER THING THAT IS INTERESTING IF YOU ARE A FAN OF HILLERMAN'S WRITING, IS TO SEE HOW ANNE HILLERMAN HAS DEVELOPED BERNADETTE, BERNIE.

BECAUSE BY HIS OWN ADMISSION, I AM NOT SURPRISING ANYONE, HILLERMAN HAD A HARD TIME WRITING ABOUT WOMEN IN HIS BOOKS.

HE NEVER QUITE GOT THEM FULLY EXPLAINED WHICH ANNE SAYS IS ODD CONSIDERING HE HAD FEMALE CHILDREN AND A SISTER AND A WONDERFUL WIFE.

BUT SHE HAS REALLY HELPED DEVELOP THAT CHARACTER SO THERE ARE NOW THREE CHARACTERS AS OPPOSED TO TWO POINT FIVE CHARACTERS UNDER HILLERMAN REGIME.

>>LORENE: WELL TELL ME, DID SUCCESS CATCH HIM BY SURPRISE?

>>JAMES: THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION.

I THINK THE EXTENT OF SUCCESS CAPTURED HIM BY SURPRISE.

I THINK HE FELT CONFIDENT HE COULD MAKE A LIVING DOING THESE NOVELS, BECAUSE THE FIRST ONE, THE SECOND ONE, IT BEGAN TO GROW.

BUT I THINK IT CAUGHT HIM BY SURPRISE TO BE A WORLDWIDE PHENOMENON WHERE PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, THEY FLEW HIM TO FRANCE TO MEET READERS, PEOPLE IN KOREA WERE READING HIS BOOKS.

THE EXTENT OF FAME WAS REALLY QUITE SURPRISING, IN FACT, FAMOUSLY HE TELLS A STORY, HE BEGAN TO GET SO MANY PHONE CALLS AT HOME, HE GOT SEVEN ONE SUNDAY THAT HE COULDN'T PICK UP THE PHONE TO CALL HIS KIDS.

AND THE LAST CALL WAS SOMEBODY CALLING SAYING, "I HAVE AN ISUZU TRUCK LIKE YOU DO AND I AM COMING OUT, WHERE WOULD YOU SUGGEST I GET IT SERVICED?"

SO, HE HUNG UP AND SAID, "MARIE, WE NEED AN UNLISTED PHONE NUMBER."

SO THOSE THINGS CAUGHT HIM BY SURPRISE BUT OTHERWISE HE REMAINED UNCHANGED, I MEAN THEY BOTH WOULD GO TO THEIR FAVORITE RESTAURANT IN ALBUQUERQUE WITH COUPONS AND GO TO THE EARLY SEATING WHEN THEY COULD HAVE PROBABLY HAVE OWNED A CHAIN OF RESTAURANTS.

THEY DIDN'T CHANGE IN THAT RESPECT.

>>LORENE: YEAH, YEAH AND AT THE BEGINNING, ALSO A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HIS BACKGROUND BECAUSE HE HAD BEEN A WORKING JOURNALIST AND HE ACTUALLY WORKED WITH MY LATE HUSBAND, ERNIE MILLS, THEY BOTH COVERED THE CAPITOL AND THEN HE WAS A PROFESSOR OF JOURNALISM AT UNM, HAD MANY WONDERFUL STUDENTS, INVESTED IN HIS STUDENTS.

AND THEN HE TOOK A CHANCE GOING INTO WRITING FICTION WHICH TURNED OUT REALLY WELL, AT THE BEGINNING, DIDN'T HE PRETTY MUCH ANSWER THE FAN LETTERS?

>>JAMES: HE DID.

IN FACT, IN 1979, A REPORTER WHO HAD BEEN A REPORTER IN ALBUQUERQUE, MOVED TO MISSOURI TO WORK AT A RADIO NETWORK, THE MISSOURI RADIO NETWORK, AND SENT HIM A FAN LETTER ABOUT A BOOK CALLED A FLY ON THE WALL , AND ASKED HIM IF THAT CAPITAL WAS BASED ON ONE IN JEFFERSON CITY AND TONY TYPED A THANK YOU NOTE TO THIS PERSON AND SAID, "WELL IT WASN'T, IT COULD BE A LITTLE BIT, BUT IT IS REALLY BASED IN OKLAHOMA AND DID YOU SPOT THE MISTAKE IN THE BOOK?"

AND HILLERMAN FLIPPED THE PIECE OF PAPER UPSIDE DOWN AND WROTE THE MISTAKE AT THE BOTTOM SO HE COULDN'T SEE IT RIGHT AWAY.

WELL THAT WAS ME, I WROTE THE FAN LETTER AND THAT FAN LETTER IS IN HIS ARCHIVES AND HE WAS STILL ANSWERING HIS OWN MAIL AT THAT POINT.

>>LORENE: OH AND HAD YOU SPOTTED THE MISTAKE?

>>JAMES: NO, I HAD NOT SPOTTED THE MISTAKE.

>>LORENE: TELL OUR READERS WHAT IT IS.

>>JAMES: THE MISTAKE IS THAT THE PROTAGONIST TAKES OFF HIS LEATHER SHOES WHILE WALKING THROUGH THE CAPITAL AT NIGHT WHEN THE BAD GUYS ARE CHASING HIM SO THAT YOU WOULDN'T HEAR HIM AND HE NEVER PUTS THEM BACK ON.

SO HE GOES OUT IN THE SLEET AND SNOW AND ALL THESE PLACES BAREFOOT, YOU KNOW, SOCKS, AND THAT TURNED OUT TO BE ONE OF HILLERMAN'S FAVORITE MISTAKES.

HE LATER AS I RESEARCHED THE BOOK, I DISCOVERED THAT'S ONE HE SHARED WITH A LOT OF PEOPLE.

>>LORENE: YES, YES.

ALSO, HE USED A TERM IN THIS BOOK THAT I HAD NEVER HEARD BEFORE THAT HE WAS A BIT OF A "BLURB SLUT".

>>JAMES: YEAH, WELL THAT'S HIS WORDS.

>>LORENE: THAT'S HIS WORDS.

>>JAMES: HE WAS SO WILLING TO SUPPORT OTHER WRITERS THAT HE GAVE BLURBS RIGHT AND LEFT AND YOU KNOW THE BUSINESS OF GIVING A BLURB, WHICH IS A QUOTE THAT PEOPLE PUT ON THE BACK OF THE BOOK SAYING "THIS IS BEST BOOK I HAVE EVER READ," BY SOMEBODY, YOU KNOW, SOMEBODY FAMOUS CONTRIBUTING THAT COMMENT.

IT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO STARTING WRITERS, SO HILLERMAN WAS ALWAYS WILLING TO FIND SOMETHING GOOD TO SAY ABOUT SOMEBODY'S BOOK AND SOMETIMES WITH TERRIFYING SPEED.

ONE PUBLISHER SENT A NOTE SAYING, "HAS HE REALLY READ THE BOOK, WE ONLY SENT IT TO HIM YESTERDAY."

>>LORENE: YEAH, YEAH.

SO ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE, LET'S TALK ABOUT TONY'S BOOKS BEING MADE INTO MOVIES.

BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE SO VISUAL NOW AND NOT SO MANY PEOPLE ARE READING, BUT THERE IS A HISTORY WITH PBS STARTING OUT.

>>JAMES: YES.

>>LORENE: NOW LET'S TALK ABOUT HOW IT HAS PROGRESSED.

>>JAMES: WELL ROBERT REDFORD WHEN HE WAS IN NEW MEXICO FILMING MILAGRO BEANFIELD WAR , CAME ACROSS TONY'S BOOKS AND READ THEM AND SAID, THESE ARE BOUND TO BE A MOVIE.

SO HE PUT UP THE MONEY AND AROUND 1999, 2000, 2001 AROUND THOSE YEARS.

I MAY BE OFF BY A YEAR, HE DID THREE DIFFERENT MASTERPIECE MURDERS SELF-CONTAINED EPISODES ON PBS.

THESE HAD THE SAME STARTLING EFFECT THAT 30 YEARS EARLIER TONY'S BOOK HAD HAD BECAUSE IF YOU REMEMBER WATCHING MASTERPIECE MURDERS ON PBS THEY WERE POIROT, THEY WERE AGAIN THESE, YOU KNOW, VERY ANGLO WORLD.

SO THAT WAS SHOCKING IN A GOOD WAY I MEAN, PEOPLE NOTICED.

BUT THEY WEREN'T QUITE SUCCESSFUL, IT WAS SOMETHING OFF ABOUT THEM, EVEN BY ROBERT REDFORD'S ADMISSION, THEY NEVER QUITE WERE A SUCCESS.

WELL, HE HAS HAD THE RARE CHANCE IN LIFE TO BITE AT THE SAME FRUIT TWICE BECAUSE HE AND GEORGE RR MARTIN ARE FUNDING A NEW SERIES THAT WILL BE ON AMC IN 2022 AND THEY ARE FIXING ALL THE MISTAKES THEY MADE BEFORE.

THEY ARE NOW USING NATIVE AMERICAN ACTORS AND WHAT IS REALLY SIGNIFICANT I THINK ABOUT IT, IS THE FACT THAT THE NAVAJO NATION HAS GRANTED THEM PERMISSION TO FILM ON THE NAVAJO NATION.

AND IN THIS WORLD OF CONTENTIOUS VIEWS, YOU KNOW, DID HILLERMAN DO SOMETHING THAT WAS WRONG BY APPROPRIATING THE NAVAJO CULTURE, I THINK THE NAVAJOS MAY BE OFFERING THEIR OWN ANSWER BY INVITING A FILM CREW TO COME AND DO THE SERIES ON THE NAVAJO NATION ITSELF.

>>LORENE: AND ANNE HILLERMAN HAD RUN INTO THAT, IN THAT BECAUSE OF THE PANDEMIC THE RESERVATION WAS CLOSED, THEY WERE HIT SO CRUELLY AT THE BEGINNING.

AND SHE LIKES TO GO WHEN SHE IS PLACING HER BOOKS IN THE LANDSCAPE THAT TONY MADE SO FAMOUS, SHE WANTED TO GO BUT SHE RESPECTED THE PUBLIC HEALTH ASPECT AND DIDN'T INTRUDE.

BUT I THINK THAT ONE OF THE PARTS OF OPENING UP THE WORLD'S UNDERSTANDING OF THE NAVAJO CULTURE IS THAT NOW FINALLY NATIVE AMERICANS HAVE FOUND A LARGER AUDIENCE AND A LOUDER VOICE.

I AM PARTICULARLY FOND OF A PROGRAM CALLED RESERVATION DOGS, WHICH IS WRITTEN BY NATIVE AMERICANS, STARS NATIVE AMERICANS AND ADDRESSES CONTEMPORARY NATIVE AMERICAN KIDS, LIFE AND TIMES.

SO IT IS MARVELOUS TO SEE THE BLOSSOMING OF THE ROSE.

>>JAMES: AND WE SHOULD CELEBRATE PEOPLE TELLING THEIR OWN STORIES BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN WE SHOULD COMPLETELY NEGATE THE EFFORTS OF PEOPLE FROM OTHER CULTURES TELLING STORIES OF OTHER CULTURES.

THERE ARE CERTAIN RULES I THINK YOU HAVE TO ABIDE BY, ONE IS RESPECT AND ONE IS SOME FORM OF PERMISSION IN THE SENSE THAT YOU ARE USING SOMEBODY ELSE'S, BUT I REMIND PEOPLE THAT FOR MOST NAVAJOS WHEN THE OUTSIDE WORLD CAME TO WRITE ABOUT THEM, THEY WERE WRITING ABOUT CORRUPTION, THEY WERE WRITING ABOUT RADIATION FROM THE NUCLEAR MINING, URANIUM MINING.

THEY WERE WRITING ABOUT THE COAL FIRE, THEY WERE WRITING ABOUT THE PLAGUE, THEY WERE WRITING ABOUT POVERTY.

HERE WAS A MAN WHO CAME OUT AND WROTE ABOUT THE WONDERFULNESS OF THEIR CULTURE, THE STRENGTH OF THEIR SPIRITUALITY, THE BEAUTY OF THEIR LANDSCAPE.

HE MADE LANDSCAPE A CHARACTER IN HIS BOOKS, THAT IS A VERY DIFFERENT THING AND THAT'S WHY A LOT OF NAVAJOS ENDED UP APPRECIATING WHAT HE DID.

I HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO TEACH FOR A DAY IN AN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL IN CHINLE AND ONE OF THE BOYS WAS SO PROUD TO TELL ME THAT HIS GRANDMOTHER IN HER HOGAN HAS A SHELF SAVED AND SET APART WITH ALL OF THE HILLERMAN BOOKS.

>>LORENE: YES AND MANY TEACHERS HAVE SAID, YOU KNOW IT IS HARD TO GET THESE KIDS TO READ, SO WE USE THE HILLERMAN BOOKS AS TEXTS AND IT PROVIDES JUST A REALLY GOOD TEMPLATE FOR HONORING THEIR CULTURE THAT THEY CAN SEE.

WELL, WHAT HAVE I NEGLECTED TO ASK YOU ABOUT THIS, WHAT DO YOU NEED PEOPLE TO KNOW ABOUT TONY HILLERMAN: A LIFE ?

>>JAMES: WELL I THINK THERE ARE TWO THINGS THAT PEOPLE WOULD LIKE IN THE BOOK.

IF YOU ARE A READER OF HILLERMAN'S BOOKS, YOU WILL FIND OUT HOW THE BOOKS WERE ACTUALLY PUT TOGETHER, BUT I AM VERY CAREFUL NOT TO INCLUDE SPOILERS, SO IF YOU HAVE READ THEM AND YOU WANT TO REREAD THEM THIS BOOK WON'T ROB YOU OF THAT.

AND IF YOU HAVEN'T READ THEM, I HOPE IT IS AN INVITATION TO READ THEM AND TO UNDERSTAND THEIR SIGNIFICANCE AND AGAIN, THERE WILL BE NO SPOILERS.

>>LORENE: YES AND SO WE LOOK AT YOU KNOW, THE FAMOUS WRITERS OF NEW MEXICO, OF COURSE, I AM VERY FOND OF MAX EVANS, AND SCOTT MOMADAY AND RUDY ANAYA, BUT WE DON'T HAVE TO RANK THEM, BUT I THINK HE WILL STAND HEAD AND SHOULDERS AMONG MOST WRITERS OF NEW MEXICAN HISTORY.

>>JAMES: AMONG THE TWENTIETH CENTURY, AMONG THE ONES YOU HAVE MENTIONED, HE IS PART OF THAT GROUP FOR SURE AND THEY WERE PART OF EACH OTHER'S LIVES, I MEAN THEY KNEW WHAT THEY WERE DOING IN THAT SENSE.

MAX EVANS IS VERY MUCH LIKE TONY, A WORLD WAR II VETERAN, WHO HAD SEEN SOME HORRORS AND TURNED TO ART, I MEAN HE WAS A PAINTER, AS YOU BETTER KNOW THAT ANYBODY ELSE, AND A WRITER.

HILLERMAN WAS SEARCHING FOR A FORM OF EXPRESSION TOO AND NEW MEXICO PROVIDED HIM THE VENUE FOR THAT.

IN MANY WAYS, NEW MEXICO MADE HILLERMAN.

>>LORENE: YES.

AND WHAT WAS THE MOST SURPRISING THING, FOR YOU, IN THIS COUPLE OF YEARS OF RESEARCH?

>>JAMES: THE MOST SURPRISING THING FOR ME IS ACTUALLY A LITTLE BIT OF CONJUNCTURE.

I DISCOVERED IN THE COURSE OF MY RESEARCH THE DAMAGE THE WAR HAD DONE TO HIM AND THAT HE WAS ACTUALLY DIAGNOSED LATE IN LIFE AS HAVING PTSD AND HE ADMITTED THAT TO A FRIEND OF HIS.

I HADN'T REALIZED EVEN WHEN I DISCOVERED IT HOW MUCH IT MIGHT INFLUENCE HIS WRITING.

AND I HAVE COME TO BELIEVE, AND IT IS MY ARGUMENT IN THE BOOK, THAT HILLERMAN'S DEEP ATTRACTION TO NAVAJO SPIRITUALITY HAS TO DO WITH THEIR SENSE OF DRIVE FOR HARMONY IN THE WORLD.

>>LORENE: WHAT IS THAT WORD, HOZHO?

>>JAMES: HOZHO.

YEAH.

I AM NOT SURE I'M GETTING IT QUITE RIGHT, BUT IT IS A WORD THEY USE EVERY DAY IN SEEKING THIS HARMONY.

WELL, HILLERMAN NEVER RENOUNCED HIS CATHOLICISM, HE REMAINED A DEEPLY RELIGIOUS CATHOLIC TO THE END OF HIS LIFE, BUT THIS KIND OF PURSUIT AND HIS WRITING ABOUT IT PROVIDES AN EMOTIONALITY, A CONNECTION IN THE WRITING ITSELF.

AND I THINK IT IS BECAUSE HE FOUND IN WRITING ABOUT THEM THE KIND OF PEACE THAT HE WOULD HAVE BEEN SEEKING SINCE THE END OF THE WAR IN 1945.

>>LORENE: AND AS YOU SAY, AS BEING A REVERSE MISSIONARY.

>>JAMES: YEAH.

>>LORENE: HE WANTED HIS READERS TO KNOW THAT THEY TOO, HAD THAT SEARCH FOR HARMONY AND WALKING IN BEAUTY, AND HE PROVIDED A TEMPLATE TO FIND IT.

>>JAMES: HE WAS A PROSELYTIZER.

>>LORENE: YEAH, HE WAS.

>>JAMES: I MEAN HIS BOOKS AS HE SAID HE USED THE WORD REVERSE MISSIONARY.

HE WANTED THE WORLD TO KNOW THIS AND IT IS CLEVER BECAUSE YOU THINK OF IT AS THE BACKDROP, BUT IT IS NOT THE BACKDROP LIKE AT THE SANTA FE OPERA WAY OF PAINTED THINGS, IT IS THE TEXTURE OF THE BOOK, IT IS WHAT MAKES THE BOOKS WORK.

>>LORENE: YES.

I LOVE THE BOOK AND I AM REALLY GRATEFUL TO YOU FOR WRITING IT.

>>JAMES: WELL, FOR ME IT MEANS A LOT BECAUSE I'VE SO ADMIRED TONY HILLERMAN THAT I THINK IT IS A GIFT TO HIS MEMORY AND AS AN ANGLO IMMIGRANT WHO CAME TO NEW MEXICO AS A REPORTER MUCH IN THE SAME CIRCUMSTANCES AS HILLERMAN DID, I WOULD LIKE TO THINK OF IT AS MY GIFT TO THE STATE.

>>LORENE: AND AS A BIOGRAPHER, DO YOU TAKE A LITTLE REST NOW THAT THE BABY IS BORN?

>>JAMES: YES, I AM.

>>LORENE: YOU ARE PROMOTING IT AND... >>JAMES: AT 67 I AM FINDING I DON'T HAVE AS MUCH ENERGY AS I USED TO HAVE, SO I AM WORKING ON SOME MORE SMALLER DISCREET PROJECTS RIGHT NOW AND WE WILL SEE WHAT THE WORLD BECKONS.

>>LORENE: YEAH, YEAH, BUT YOU DID VERY WELL, I AM SO GRATEFUL FOR YOU.

OUR GUEST TODAY IS JAMES MCGRATH MORRIS, BIOGRAPHER, CREATOR OF NARRATIVE NONFICTION ABOUT HIS WONDERFUL NEW BOOK TONY HILLERMAN: A LIFE .

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>>JAMES: IT WAS A PLEASURE AND AN HONOR TO BE WITH YOU.

>>LORENE: AND I AM LORENE MILLS.

I WOULD LIKE TO THANK YOU OUR AUDIENCE FOR BEING WITH US TODAY ON REPORT FROM SANTA FE .

REPORT FROM SANTA FE IS MADE POSSIBLE, IN PART, BY GRANTS FROM THE NEW MEXICO MUNICIPAL LEAGUE, A BETTER NEW MEXICO THROUGH BETTER CITIES AND FROM