[ ♪♪ ] >> WELCOME BACK TO THE CORRESPONDENTS' EDITION OF "OFF THE RECORD."

OUR LEAD STORIES: THE WITMER ADMINISTRATION VERSUS THE REPUBLICANS ON THE COVID-19 DEATH COUNT.

THE STATE ATTORNEY-GENERAL VERSUS SIXTEEN REPUBLICANS ACCUSED OF ELECTION FRAUD AND THE U OF M REGENTS.

WE HAVE ZOE CLARK, LAUREN GIBBONS, CHAD LIVENGOOD AND CRAIG MAUGER SITTING WITH US.

WE GET THE INSIDE OUT ON "OFF THE RECORD."

[ ♪♪ ] MICHIGAN PUBLIC TELEVISION STATIONS HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO THE PRODUCTION COSTS OF "OFF THE RECORD" WITH TIM SKUBICK.

>> Announcer: NOW, THIS EDITION OF "OFF THE RECORD" WITH TIM SKUBICK.

>> Tim: THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

WELCOME TO "OFF THE RECORD."

A BUSY NEWS WEEK IN OUR TOWN SO WE DECIDED TO LET THE GUESTS TAKE THE DAY OFF AND WE BRING IN OUR FOUR BRILLIANT JOURNALISTS, FOUR OF WHICH WILL SHOW UP SHORTLY.

WELCOME TO ALL OF YOU GUYS FOR COMING ON THE PROGRAM.

I APPRECIATE IT.

WE GOT THIS BATTLE OVER COVID DEATHS AND SENIOR CITIZENS IN NURSING HOMES AND STUFF THAT JUST REFUSES TO GO AWAY.

HERE'S LATEST INSTALLMENT AS THE GOVERNOR'S FOLKS TAKING ON THE REPUBLICAN FOLKS.

THE GOVERNOR'S PUBLIC HEALTH DIRECTOR REPORTS 5,675 SENIOR CITIZEN DEATHS IN LONG-TERM CARE FACILITIES.

BUT THE AUDITOR-GENERAL, DOUGLAS RINGLER, CONTENDS THE NUMBER IS REALLY 8,061.

AND THE RELEASE OF HIS THIRTEEN-PAGE LETTER HERE, EXPLAINS HOW THE AUDITOR-GENERAL GOT TO A DIFFERENT NUMBER THAN THE HEALTH DIRECTOR, ELIZABETH HERTEL.

SHE SAYS IT'S VERY SIMPLE: HE COUNTED MORE PLACES WHERE SENIOR CITIZENS LIVED AND DIED THAN THE STATE WAS COUNTING, HENCE THE NUMBERS DO NOT MATCH.

THE ADMINISTRATION ISSUED ITS RESPONSE TO THE REPORT CONCLUDING, QUOTE, "WE CONTINUE TO HAVE SERIOUS CONCERNS ABOUT BOTH THE METHODOLOGY AS WELL AS THE CONCLUSIONS THAT WERE DRAWN BY THIS REPORT."

BY THE WAY, THE AUDITOR-GENERAL SAYS NO CONCLUSIONS WERE DRAWN.

>> THIS REPORT INCLUDES DEATHS FROM FACILITIES THAT ARE NOT LONG-TERM CARE FACILITIES.

>> ARE THEY REGULATED BY THE STATE?

>> NO.

>> AND SO YOU ARE SAYING -- YOU HAD NO RESPONSIBILITY TO COUNT THOSE PEOPLE IN THOSE NON-STATE REGULATED FACILITIES?

>> THEY'RE NOT LONG-TERM CARE FACILITIES.

>> SO BY DEFINITION, HIS REPORT JUST IS COUNTING THE WRONG PEOPLE IN THE WRONG PLACE?

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

>> HOWEVER, THE REPUBLICAN CHAIR OF THE HOUSE OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE LOOKING INTO THESE DEATHS ASKED THE AUDITOR-GENERAL TO EXPAND THE SEARCH TO INCLUDE ADULT FOSTER CARE FACILITIES AND OTHER NON-REGULATED SENIOR FACILITIES IN THE STATE.

>> THE DEPARTMENT GAVE US WHAT THEY CALLED THEIR NURSING HOME DEATH COUNT, BUT IT DID NOT INCLUDE ALL THE FACILITIES SO WE ASKED THE AUDITOR-GENERAL TO DO IS SAY, HEY, LET'S ACTUALLY LOOK AT ALL THE FACILITIES THAT WERE ENCOMPASSED BY THAT ORDER, NOT JUST ONES THAT SELF-REPORTED BUT EVERY SINGLE ONE AND SEE WHAT THE ACTUAL NUMBER IS AND IT TURNS OUT IT'S 30% HIGHER THAN WHAT THE WITMER ADMINISTRATION TOLD US.

>> REPRESENTATIVE JOHNSON AND OTHER REPUBLICANS HAVE ACCUSED THE GOVERNOR OF UNDERCOUNTING THESE DEATHS BUT THE GOVERNOR'S DEFENDERS CLAIM THE AUDITOR-GENERAL NEVER USED THAT TERM, INSTEAD REFERRING TO THE DIFFERENCES AS JUST THAT, DIFFERENCES.

OF COURSE THAT'S NOT AS POLITICALLY EXPLOSIVE AS CALLING THEM AN UNDERCOUNT.

ZOE, IT SEEMS TO ME THAT ONE OF THE KEY TAKEAWAYS FROM THE WAS THIS ADMISSION BY THE AUDITOR-GENERAL THAT HE IS NOT USING THE WORDS THAT THE REPUBLICANS ARE WHICH DOES IT TAKE A LITTLE EDGE OFF OF THEIR CHARGE AIMED AT THE GOVERNOR.

>> OH, ABSOLUTELY.

WE HAD A FOUR-HOUR HEARING ON THURSDAY WHERE BASICALLY THE AUDITOR-GENERAL SAID AS MUCH AND THIS REALLY JUST COMES DOWN TO, AS YOU SAID IN YOUR SET-UP PIECE, TIM, THE NUMBERS AND HOW YOU ARE COUNTING THEM.

BUT THE AUDITOR-GENERAL SAID THE ADMINISTRATION.

THIS WAS NOT AN UNDERCOUNT.

WE HAVE TO REMEMBER HERE, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT TWO THINGS AND THAT IS THAT THESE ARE HUMANS AND IT IS AN ELECTION YEAR.

AND SO IT IS VERY HARD TO BE DISMISSIVE OF SUCH A STORY.

BUT THESE IDEAS OF SAYING THE GOVERNOR HAS BLOOD ON HER HANDS.

EVEN AFTER THIS COMMITTEE HEARING ENDED IS JUST POLITICS AND I THINK IT'S SORT OF POLITICS AT ITS WORST AT THIS POINT.

>> Tim: LAURA, DOESN'T CHAIRMAN JOHNSON HAVE A POINT?

IF YOU WANT TO LOOK AT THE NUMBER OF SENIORS WHO DIED, EXPAND THE UNIVERSE, MAYBE THE ADMINISTRATION OUGHT TO JUST SAY, OKAY, HERE'S OUR NUMBER.

HERE'S YOUR NUMBER.

WE THINK THEY'RE BOTH RIGHT.

TURN THE PAGE.

LAUREN, WE CAN'T HEAR YOU.

>> AT THIS POINT -- CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW?

>> Tim: WE'RE GOOD.

>> AT THIS POINT, IT'S BECOME SUCH A POLITICIZED ISSUE THAT IT'S PRETTY DIFFICULT FOR THE ADMINISTRATION TO BACK DOWN HERE.

IT'S, AS ZOE SAID, HAS BECOME AN EXTREMELY POLITICIZED ISSUE.

IT'S AN ELECTION YEAR.

FOR THEM TO CONCEDE AT THIS POINT WOULD BE DIFFICULT FOR THE ADMINISTRATION, AND I THINK AS THE AUDITOR-GENERAL SAID, YOU KNOW, THIS WASN'T REALLY A SLAM DUNK AGAINST THE ADMINISTRATION THAT THE REPUBLICANS WERE HOPING IT WOULD BE.

I THINK MOVING FORWARD, YOU'RE STILL GOING TO SEE THIS BE A POLITICAL LIGHTNING ROD FOR BOTH SIDES.

>> Tim: CHAD, LET'S TURN THE PAGE AND MOVE TO GENERAL MOTORS.

IT WAS REPORTED EARLIER THIS WEEK THAT GENERAL MOTORS SENT TO THE STATE CAPITAL A TEAM OF TECHNICIANS NOT TO LOOK AT THE CIVIL WAR FLAGS IN THE ROTUNDA BUT TO LOOK FOR A PLACE FOR AN ANNOUNCEMENT.

WHAT'S GOING ON?

>> ALL SIGNS POINT TO GENERAL MOTORS IS GOING TO ANNOUNCE A DEAL TO BUILD A NEW BATTERY PLANT IN DELTA TOWNSHIP NEXT TO ITS EXISTING ASSEMBLY PLANT AND THEY ARE GOING TO BUILD SOME TYPE OF AN EXPANSION ONTO ITS EXISTING ORION TOWNSHIP PLANT IN OAKLAND COUNTY.

THEY HAVE GOT APPLICATIONS IN TO BOTH AND GOT APPROVALS FROM BOTH LOCAL GOVERNMENTS IN EDEN AND OAKLAND COUNTY, AND RIGHT NOW, JUST ON PAPER, IT'S 3.8 BILLION DOLLARS OF INVESTMENT, AND THIS WILL BE SUBSIDIZED WITH SOME OF THESE NEW TAX INCENTIVES THAT THE LEGISLATURE APPROVED LAST MONTH.

YOU MIGHT RECALL THE LEGISLATURE FAST TRACKED A BILLION DOLLAR NEW INCENTIVES FUND AIMED AT LANDING BATTERY PLANTS, MICRO-CHIP PLANTS AND OTHER TYPES OF SORT OF INDUSTRIAL PRODUCTION JOBS AND SO THIS SEEMS TO BE KIND OF COMING -- WE DON'T KNOW THE EXACT NUMBER, WHAT TYPE OF -- HOW MUCH OF THAT BILLION DOLLARS GENERAL MOTORS IS GOING TO GET, BUT THIS IS KIND OF THE BIPARTISAN VICTORY LAP FOR BOTH REPUBLICANS IN THE LEGISLATURE THAT PUSHED THIS AND THE GOVERNOR WITMER, WHO HAS KIND OF MADE JOB CREATION A BIG PART OF HER RE-ELECTION MANTRA RIGHT NOW.

I WOULD SUSPECT THAT WE HAVE AN ANNOUNCEMENT AS SOON AS TUESDAY AND THEN THE GOVERNOR GIVES HER STATE OF THE STATE ADDRESS ON WEDNESDAY, AND IT MIGHT BE A PRETTY BIG VICTORY LAP IN THAT ADDRESS.

>> Tim: WE ARE TOLD THAT THE G.M.

TECHS COULD NOT FIND A TECHNICAL PLACE IN THE STATE CAPITAL WHERE THEY COULD DO THEIR BROADBANDING AND THEIR STREAMING SO THEY'RE GOING ACROSS THE STREET TO THE BOJI COMMITTEE ROOM WHICH IS IN THE BOJI BUILDING ACROSS FROM THE CAPITOL.

Mr. MAUGER, DO YOU ASSUME THE GOVERNOR WILL SHOW UP AT THIS ANNOUNCEMENT?

>> I WOULD ASSUME SO.

I MEAN, I'M EXPECTING THAT THIS WILL TURN INTO THE CRUX OF WHAT WE HEAR AT THE STATE OF THE STATE ADDRESS NEXT WEEK.

IT'S GOING TO LIKELY TURN INTO THE CRUX OF HER RE-ELECTION CAMPAIGN EFFORT.

ALL THE STUFF WE'RE TALKING ABOUT WITH NURSING HOMES AND COVID-19 IN SCHOOLS, THE GOVERNOR WANTS TO GET AWAY FROM THAT.

SHE WANT TO TALK ABOUT THIS UNIFYING MESSAGE OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT AND WORKING ACROSS THE AISLE.

AS SOMEONE THAT WORKS IN THE STATE CAPITAL OFTEN, I AGREE THERE ARE WIFI PROBLEMS THERE.

>> Tim: AMONG OTHER PROBLEMS.

ZOE, YOUR TAKE ON THIS IMPENDING ANNOUNCEMENT.

>> IT'S THE ECONOMY, STUPID.

RIGHT.

I MEAN, OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

IN FACT, JAMES CRAIG HAD BASICALLY A SPEECH THURSDAY NIGHT WHERE IT WAS ALL ABOUT EDUCATION AND THE ECONOMY AS WELL.

AND THIS IS -- YOU KNOW, THIS HAS TO DO WITH WHERE WE'RE AT TWO YEARS INTO COVID THAT FOLKS, POLITICIANS UP FOR RE-ELECTION, WANT TO TALK ABOUT, AGAIN, FIXING THE ROADS, ABOUT BUILDING NEW MANUFACTURING, BRINGING JOBS TO MICHIGAN.

THAT'S WHAT THE FOCUS IS REALLY GOING TO WANT TO BE ON FOR THIS ADMINISTRATION AND THAT'S WHERE THEY'RE PUSHING AND THE TIMING IS GOING TO WORK OUT FOR THE STATE OF THE STATE ADDRESS WEDNESDAY EVENING.

>> Tim: LAUREN, THIS IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WHAT THE GOVERNOR'S BEEN TALKING ABOUT AS SHE SAID SHE'S ALL ABOUT BIPARTISANSHIP AND THE REPUBLICANS HANDED HER ONE HERE, DID THEY NOT?

>> YEAH.

I THINK THIS IS ONE OF THE FEW THINGS THAT LEADS TO RECENTLY THE GOVERNOR CAN POINT TO AND SAY, LOOK, WE WERE ABLE TO GET THIS PASSED, AND THAT IS, YOU KNOW, NO SMALL FEAT NECESSARILY IN A TIME OF DIVIDED GOVERNMENT WHEN THE REPUBLICANS CONTROL THE LEGISLATURE AND FOR THE PAST TWO YEARS, THEY HAVE BEEN, YOU KNOW, COMING AFTER HER ADMINISTRATION'S POLICIES REGARDING COVID-19 INSTEAD OF ANY OTHER THINGS RELATED TO THE PANDEMIC.

FOR HER, THIS IS SOMETHING THAT SHE CAN POINT TO AT THE STATE OF THE STATE AND SAY, YES, THIS IS SOMETHING THAT -- THIS IS SOMETHING THAT MY ADMINISTRATION ACCOMPLISHED AND TO REPUBLICANS AS WELL CAN ALSO, YOU KNOW, USE THIS AND SAY, HEY, YOU KNOW, THIS WAS A SUCCESS FROM THE LEGISLATURE, SO I THINK BOTH PARTIES KIND OF SEE THIS AS A WIN-WIN BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, IT'S HARD TO, YOU KNOW, TURN YOUR NOSE AT NEW JOBS AND NEW INVESTMENTS.

>> Tim: THE REALLY AMAZING PART OF THIS STORY IS ALL OF US HAVE WATCHED STATE GOVERNMENT FOR YEARS IS THAT THEY DID THIS IN ALMOST RECORD TIME.

THE FORD ANNOUNCEMENT THAT THE BATTERY PLANTS WERE GOING SOUTH WOKE EVERYBODY UP IN THIS TOWN AND THEY SAID LET'S DO SOMETHING AND 79 DAYS LATER, THEY DID.

GOODNESS GRACIOUS!

>> I WAS GOING TO ADD, TIM, I MEAN -- >> Tim: GO AHEAD.

>> YOU LOOK AT THE BILL SPONSORS SENATOR KEN HORN, SAGINAW COUNTY, REPRESENTATIVE BEN FREDERICK FROM SHIAWASSEE COUNTY, THESE GENTLEMEN FROM COUNTIES THAT ARE SUPPLIER COUNTIES, THEIR MAIN MANUFACTURING BASE IS AUTOMOTIVE SUPPLIERS.

THEY ARE STARTING TO WAKE UP TO THE FACT THAT ELECTRIC VEHICLES ARE HERE.

THEY'RE COMING.

AND IT'S NOT GOING TO BE A FAD.

AND IT'S GOING TO TAKE OVER THE INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINE AND THE INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINE IS CREATED BY HUNDREDS, IF NOT THOUSANDS, OF PARTS THAT ARE MADE BY LITTLE FACTORIES ALL ACROSS THIS STATE AND SO PEOPLE ARE STARTING TO REALIZE THAT THEY HAD TO COME TO THE TABLE AND THEY HAD TO WIN ONE OF THESE BATTERY PLANTS AND -- IN ORDER TO RESERVE THE AUTOMOTIVE BASE THAT'S HERE.

>> Tim: Mr. MAUGER?

>> AND THIS ISN'T -- KEEP IN MIND, THIS ISN'T JUST ABOUT G.M.

WE KNOW FROM PUBLIC RECORDS AND FROM LAWMAKERS' PROJECTS, THEY'RE FOUR LARGE PROJECTS THAT COULD BENEFIT FROM THIS PROGRAM THAT THEY'VE CREATED.

YOU START TALKING ABOUT FOUR PROJECTS AROUND THE STATE, GEOGRAPHICALLY, YOU'RE INVOLVING, YOU KNOW, A MAJORITY OF THE LEGISLATURE JUST IN FOUR PROJECTS IF THEY'RE IN DIFFERENT AREAS OF THE STATE.

SO YOU CAN KIND OF SEE WHY YOU WOULD BE ABLE TO GET THIS THROUGH THE LEGISLATURE SO QUICKLY.

>> Tim: ALL RIGHT.

LET'S TURN THE PAGE TO THE LITTLE STORY FROM DANA NESSEL WHO SAYS 16 REPUBLICANS PONIED UP SOME DOCUMENTS THAT THEY WERE ELECTORS OF DONALD TRUMP.

ZOE, WHAT'S THIS STORY ALL ABOUT?

>> OH, BOY, WHERE TO BEGIN.

[ Chuckling ] >> Tim: REMEMBER, IT'S ONLY A HALF-HOUR SHOW.

>> THIS THING CALLED THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE.

>> Tim: HERE WE GO.

LISTEN, CALL ME WHEN YOU'RE DONE, OKAY.

[ Laughter ] >> LET'S GET A COFFEE AND LET'S GET GOING HERE.

SIXTEEN REPUBLICANS WHO WERE PLEDGED ELECTORS FOR THE REPUBLICAN COLLEGE -- THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE -- REPUBLICANS, INCLUDING THE CO-CHAIR OF THE MICHIGAN REPUBLICAN PARTY, MESHAWN MADDOCK, SIGNED ONTO WHAT THEY WERE SAYING WAS A DOCUMENT BASICALLY SAYING THAT MICHIGAN'S ELECTORS WERE GOING FOR DONALD TRUMP RATHER THAN BIDEN.

THIS WAS HAPPENING.

WHILE INSIDE OF THE CAPITOL CHAMBER, GOVERNOR WITMER WAS THERE, DANA NESSEL WAS THERE.

DEMOCRATS WERE GIVING THE ELECTORAL VOTES.

IT NOW TURNS OUT, ACTUALLY, JUST THIS WEEK, CNN OBTAINED VIDEO -- I HAVE TO GIVE IT TO CRAIG MAUGER, INSANE AMAZING WORK ON GETTING SO MANY DIFFERENT AUDIO WORK FROM MESHAWN MADDOCK, UNBEKNOWNST TO THOSE RECORDINGS BUT LOOKING LIKE THIS IS A PART OF A LARGER POSSIBLY SIX OR SEVEN-STATE CONSPIRACY PLOT BASICALLY TO SUBVERT THE WILL OF THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY AND THIS GOES BACK TO THIS SORT OF CRAZY LAWYER JOHN EASTMAN, RUDY GUILIANI AND SO DANA NESSEL CAME OUT ON THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW AND SAID, I AM LOOKING INTO THIS.

THIS MADE IT CLEAR THAT SHE SENT IT TO THE WESTERN DISTRICT OF MICHIGAN AS A FEDERAL POSSIBLY CHARGE, CONSPIRACY CHARGE, WHICH SHE'S SAYING, HEY, FORGERY OF A DOCUMENT COULD BE AN ISSUE AND THERE COULD STILL BE STATE CHARGES.

OKAY.

>> Tim: CRAIG, LET'S JUMP HERE.

SHE WALKED RIGHT UP TO THE LINE IN THAT BRIEFING BUT SHE DIDN'T SAY THIS WAS A CONSPIRACY, DID SHE?

>> NO.

SHE TOWED UP TO THE LINE.

SHE BELIEVED THAT THESE SIXTEEN ELECTORS IN MICHIGAN COMMITTED POTENTIALLY MULTIPLE CRIMES.

AND PEOPLE KEEP ASKING IF SHE BELIEVES THAT THESE PEOPLE COMMITTED CRIMES, WHY IS SHE NOT CHARGING THEM TODAY?

AND IT'S GETTING EXACTLY TO THE POINT THAT YOU'RE MAKING, TIM.

THIS IS AN EFFORT TO FIGURE OUT WHAT THESE PEOPLE KNEW AND WHO WAS ADVISING THEM TO DO THIS.

BY TURNING THIS OVER TO THE FEDS, THEY'RE BETTER POSITIONED TO ANSWER THOSE QUESTIONS.

AND IT'S LIKELY THAT THEY CAN GET MORE OUT OF THESE PEOPLE WHILE THEY'RE CONSIDERING WHETHER TO BRING CHARGES AGAINST AND WOULD BE ABLE TO IF THEY JUST CHARGED CAN THEM RIGHT AWAY.

>> Tim: WHAT'S YOUR TAKE ON THIS?

SHOULD THE REPUBLICANS BE A LITTLE CONCERNED RIGHT NOW?

>> YEAH, I THINK CRAIG IS RIGHT, ESPECIALLY TURNING IT OVER TO THE FEDERAL PROSECUTORS.

THAT'S A BIG STEP.

AND, YOU KNOW, THIS -- AS WE RECALL FROM COVERING THIS WHEN IT WAS HAPPENING, YOU KNOW, THERE WERE SIMILAR EFFORTS THROUGHOUT SEVERAL STATES.

MICHIGAN WAS NOT THE ONLY STATE CONSIDERED A BATTLEGROUND THAT SOME OF THESE ACTIVISTS WERE FOCUSING ON.

AND, YEAH, ABSOLUTELY, THIS IS SOMETHING THAT IS NOT GOING AWAY FOR ANY OF THE PEOPLE WHO WERE INVOLVED IN THESE ACTIVITIES, AND, YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT JUST ATTORNEY-GENERAL NESTLE THAT'S SERIOUS ABOUT THIS, YOU KNOW.

OFFICIALS IN OTHER STATES ARE ALSO LOOKING INTO IT AND NOW, YOU KNOW, IT'S IN THE HANDS OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

>> Tim: CHAD, COULDN'T THESE REPUBLICANS WHO ARGUE, HERE'S WHAT WE WERE DOING: WE THOUGHT THIS ELECTION IN MICHIGAN WAS IN DISPUTE.

WE WERE JUST SORT OF COVERING OURSELVES HERE BY FILING US AS ELECTORS JUST IN CASE THE ELECTION WAS TURNED AROUND AND THEN WE'VE GOT OUR PEOPLE IN PLACE AND WE CAN GO FORWARD.

COULD THEY NOT MAKE THAT ARGUMENT?

>> I MEAN, THEY COULD, TIM.

I THINK WHAT IS THE STORY THAT'S EMERGING HERE IS THAT WE WITNESSED THE INSURRECTION ATTEMPT ON TV LIVE ON JANUARY 6th, BUT THE BIGGER STORY IS WHETHER THERE WAS A CONSPIRACY THAT WENT BACK A MONTH OR MORE TO OVERTURN THE ELECTION BY CREATING THIS CHAOS OF FILING FAKE ELECTORS SAVING IT TO THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES, SENDING THE COUNTRY AND THE CONGRESS CAN INTO CHAOS AND THEN WE SAW WHAT HAPPENED ON JANUARY 6th, SO THIS EVENT IN THE MIDDLE OF DECEMBER SEEMS TO BE MORE IN LINE OF WHAT THEY'RE LOOKING LIKE, LIKE CRAIG MENTIONED, FEDERAL PROSECUTORS CAN SORT OF PIECE TOGETHER WHETHER THERE WAS A COORDINATED EFFORT BY BOTH THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN, WHICH MADDOCK, THE CO-CHAIR, IS ON ADVISING THAT THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN SAID FOR THEM TO FILE AS ELECTORS AND THE OTHER BIG QUESTION IS WHETHER THE TRUMP WHITE HOUSE ORGANIZED THIS EFFORT ON A STATE BY STATE BASIS TO OVERTURN THE ELECTION.

>> Tim: LET'S HEAD TO ANN ARBOUR.

WE HAD WORD THAT THE PRESIDENT DOWN THERE IS APPARENTLY LOOKING FOR WORK.

>> OH, MY.

IT WAS A CALM, CALM SATURDAY NIGHT.

ALL WAS CLEAR AND COLD HERE IN ANN ARBOUR WHEN WE GOT WORD THAT THE BOARD OF REGENTS HAD SIGNED ONTO A DOCUMENT SAYING THAT THE FORMER NOW PRESIDENT MARK SCHLISSEL HAD BEEN IN A RELATIONSHIP WITH A SUBORDINATE AND AT THE SAME ALMOST TIME, THEY RELEASED MORE THAN 110 PAGES OF HIS E-MAILS WITH THE SUBORDINATE'S NAME REDACTED AND IT VERY QUICKLY, I HAVE TO SAY, THE UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN, HE HAS NOT BEEN A POPULAR FIGURE AMONG STUDENTS AND MANY FACULTY AND THEN THE ADMINISTRATION AND OBVIOUSLY THE BOARD AND IT LOOKS LIKE THE BOARD WAS FINALLY ABLE TO FIND A REASON TO FINALLY GIVE HIM THE BOOT.

HE HAD ALREADY SAID HE WAS GOING TO LEAVE OFFICE EARLIER THAN ORIGINAL, AND HE HAD SORT OF GOTTEN THIS GOLDEN PARACHUTE OF A CONTRACT THAT AGAIN ALSO WAS JUST REALLY FRUSTRATING AMONGST STUDENTS AND FACULTY WHO WERE ALREADY UNHAPPY AND NOW BECAUSE THEY WERE ABLE TO PUSH HIM OUT FOR THIS RELATIONSHIP THAT ACTUALLY IS, YOU KNOW, QUOTE UNQUOTE, ILLEGAL UNDER U OF M STANDARDS, THIS LAW WAS SIGNED OR MADE POSSIBLE WHILE HE WAS PRESIDENT IS JUST SORT OF INCREDIBLE.

AND SO HE IS OUT AND THE FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN, MARY SUE COLEMAN, WHO HE WAS THE SUCCESSOR TO, IS NOW GOING TO BE INTERIM AS THEY LOOK FOR A NEW PRESIDENT.

>> Tim: IT WAS PRETTY CLEAR, Mr. MAUGER, THAT HE HAD LOST THE CONFIDENCE OF A MAJORITY OF THAT BOARD DOWN THERE AND THAT SENDS A VERY STRONG SIGNAL, LOOK IT, WHEN SOMEBODY SAYS, I'M GOING TO LEAVE A YEAR EARLIER THAN WHEN I WAS GOING TO LEAVE, IT SORT OF SENDS A SIGNAL THAT THERE'S SOMETHING GOING ON THERE, RIGHT?

>> OH, TOTALLY.

IT JUST GETS TO THIS LARGER ISSUE OF WHAT IS THE ACCOUNTABILITY OF THESE MAJOR PUBLIC UNIVERSITIES IN MICHIGAN.

RIGHT NOW, THE BOARD OF REGENTS HAS BEEN HANDLING THIS ESSENTIALLY INTERNALLY.

THEY TOOK A VOTE IN PRIVATE APPARENTLY OVER E-MAIL TO GET RID OF THE PRESIDENT AND STILL, I MEAN, THEY'VE PROVIDED SOME INFORMATION.

THEY'VE PROVIDED E-MAILS ABOUT WHAT THIS WAS ABOUT, BUT THERE ARE SO MANY MORE QUESTIONS THAT HAVE JUST COMPLETELY GONE UNANSWERED AND YOU KIND OF WONDER, IN THIS SYSTEM, AS WE HAVE IT RIGHT NOW, IS THERE A MECHANISM TO GET ANSWERS TO THESE QUESTIONS?

I MEAN, WE'RE ALL DIGGING INTO THEM AND HOPEFULLY WE FIND OUT MORE DOWN THE ROAD.

>> Tim: HOW CAN THEY -- CHAD, HOW CAN THEY GET AWAY WITH HAVING A CLOSED MEETING ON A MAJOR ISSUE LIKE THIS AND THEN COME BACK AND SAY, YOU KNOW WHAT, WE'LL RATIFY THIS IN PUBLIC IN FEBRUARY?

>> WELL, THE MICHIGAN SUPREME COURT HAS LET THEM DO CAN SO.

THEY HAVE LET UNIVERSITY BOARDS OPERATE A LITTLE DIFFERENTLY THAN THE REST OF MOST OTHER GOVERNING BOARDS WITH THEIR AUTONOMY.

THEY ROUTINELY HOLD CLOSED DOOR SESSIONS IN ORDER TO MAKE EXECUTIVE DECISIONS SUCH AS THE HIRING AND FIRING OF A PRESIDENT.

THIS HAS BEEN LITIGATED AT THE SUPREME COURT A COUPLE OF TIMES OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF DECADES.

SO, YEAH, AND THEN YOU JUST HAVE -- CRAIG TALKED ABOUT, THIS CONFIDENCE IN THIS PRESIDENT WAS ERODING FOR SOME TIME.

THERE WAS SOME QUESTION ABOUT, YOU KNOW, HIS LEADERSHIP AND THEN THERE'S JUST THIS BLATANT HYPOCRISY OF PASSING A RULE ACROSS CAMPUS THAT PROHIBITS THESE KIND OF RELATIONSHIPS WITH SUBORDINATES AND HE WAS CARRYING ONE ON FOR ALMOST TWO YEARS, AND SO, IT'S CLEAR THAT THE BOARD DECIDED IT WAS TIME TO GO.

ONE THING WE OUGHT TO KNOW, THOUGH, IS THIS SELECTIVE E-MAIL DUMP OF THE UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN BOARD, THEY DUMP THESE 108 PAGES OF E-MAILS SHOWING, YOU KNOW, MARK SCHISSEL WAS LOVE-STRUCK OVER A WOMAN THAT WORKED UNDER HIM IN THE DEVELOPMENT OFFICE BUT SOME OF US HAVE TRIED TO GET E-MAILS FOR A CERTAIN REGENT, RON WEISER, WHO HAD HIS OWN LITTLE BIT OF A SCANDALOUS E-MAILS WHERE HE ACCIDENTALLY -- ACCIDENTALLY APPARENTLY -- SENT AN E-MAIL OF A BIKINI-CLAD WOMAN TO THE ENTIRE BOARD OF REGENTS AND SEEMINGLY WAS SAVING A PHOTO OF A WOMAN WHO WORKED FOR HIM, A REALLY STRANGE, BIZARRE, THING THAT HAPPENED DURING THE EARLY DAYS OF THE PANDEMIC.

BUT IF YOU WENT TO GO TRY TO GET THOSE E-MAILS, THEY WERE SUDDENLY NOT AVAILABLE AND YOU COULDN'T FIND ANY RON WEISER'S E-MAILS.

SO THERE IS A -- THE U OF M IS NOTORIOUS FOR BEING HARD TO GET INFORMATION OUT OF WHEN IT COMES TO THE FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT, SO THE TRUSTEES JUST -- REGENTS JUST DROPPING E-MAILS THEY'VE DECIDED THEY WANT TO EMBARRASS MARK SCHISSEL FOR, THAT SEEMS TO FLY IN THE FACE OF THEIR EFFORTS TO KIND OF CONCEAL SOME THEIR OWN PAST INDISCRETIONS.

>> Tim: THERE WAS SOME MEDIA SPECULATION AFTER THIS STORY BROKE THAT PERHAPS -- WHAT DID HE DO THAT WAS WRONG, SOME HAVE RAISED, AND DOES HE HAVE ANY GROUNDS TO COME BACK AND SAY, YOU KNOW -- DOES HE WANT TO FIGHT THIS THING OUT IS WHAT I'M ASKING, LAUREN.

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> YOU KNOW, I THINK AT THIS POINT, IT SEEMS AS THOUGH IT'S PRETTY -- THE WRITING IS ON THE WALL HERE.

SO EVEN IF HE CHOOSES TO FIGHT IT, YOU KNOW, THEY HAVE PUT THESE E-MAILS OUT WITH THE INTENT OF TRYING TO PUT THE NAIL IN HIS PRESIDENTIAL COFFIN, SO I WOULD BE A LITTLE SURPRISED IF WE SAW A PUBLIC BATTLE.

YOU KNOW, WHAT WOULD HE BE FIGHTING FOR AT THIS POINT?

YOU KNOW, ALL OF THIS IS OUT THERE.

IT'S PRETTY CLEAR THAT HE HAS BEEN, YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY THE E-MAILS MAKE IT CLEAR THAT THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR SOME TIME.

AND IT'S ALSO COMING DURING A TIME WHEN THE UNIVERSITY IS -- IT'S COMING DURING A TIME WHERE THE UNIVERSITY IS UNDER SUCH CRITICISM FOR THE HANDLING OF THE ANDERSON CASE, YOU KNOW, ALL THESE SURVIVORS HAVE BEEN REALLY CRITICAL AND WITH THE UNIVERSITY UNDER SUCH SCRUTINY, I WOULD JUST BE SURPRISED IF A -- YOU KNOW, IF A FIGHT FROM HIM TO KIND OF RECLAIM WHAT, YOU KNOW -- WHAT HE'S LOST WOULD BE A SURPRISE.

>> Tim: GO AHEAD.

>> WE SHOULD KNOW, MARK SCHISSEL WAS GETTING PAID $900,000 A YEAR AND HAD THIS PRETTY SWEET DEAL WHERE HE WAS GOING TO BE ABLE TO RETIRE FROM THE PRESIDENCY AT THE END OF 2023, COLLECT THAT SALARY FOR ANOTHER YEAR, TAKE ON A SPECIAL ADVISER TO THE NEW PRESIDENT ROLE AND GET TO SLIDE INTO THE FACULTY BECAUSE HE'S -- HE REMAINS A TENURED PROFESSOR AT U OF M AND EVEN THOUGH HE GOT FIRED, HE JUST -- HE DOES GET TO GO BACK AND BE A TENURED PROFESSOR.

NOW THE FACULTY -- THIS COULD BE INTERESTING -- THE FACULTY COULD VOTE HIM OFF THE ISLAND ESSENTIALLY IN ANN ARBOUR, BUT THAT -- HIS TENURED PROFESSORSHIP JOB IS A $400,000 PLUS JOB.

THEY WERE GOING TO GIVE HIM ADDS 2 MILLION LABORATORY FOR HIS RESEARCH.

I MEAN, THE PARACHUTE HE GOT WAS PRETTY GOOD.

AND SO THAT ALL JUST WENT AWAY WITH THE EXCEPTION THAT -- OF THAT TENURE TRACK POSITION SO HE COULD FIGHT FOR THAT.

THAT COULD BE -- IF THE FACULTY DECIDES TO KICK HIM OUT, HE COULD COME BACK AND SAY HE WAS WRONGFULLY TERMINATE AND HAD THEN TRY TO FIGHT FOR BACKPAY.

WE MAY NOT HEAR THE END OF THIS.

>> Tim: FROM A POLITICAL STANDPOINT, THE BOARD IS MAKING A MOVE TO BRING IN FORMER PRESIDENT COLEMAN WHO HAS -- WILL BE ABLE TO COME REGISTER ACTIVE PROCESS AND WE DO CAN START THE BUDGET IN FEBRUARY.

COULD YOU IMAGINE HAVING THIS FORMER PRESIDENT SHOW UP IN THAT ARENA AND TRYING TO FIGHT FOR -- I THINK THEY'VE TAKEN CARE OF ONE OF THE POLITICAL PROBLEMS IN LANSING DOING THAT.

VERY QUICKLY, CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, DID WE READ A SLIGHT RAY OF HOPE THAT THE COVID NUMBERS VIS-A-VIS HOSPITALIZATIONS ARE COMING DOWN AND THAT THE END MIGHT BE IN SIGHT?

DOES ANYBODY -- ZOE, DO YOU THINK THAT'S ACCURATE OR NOT?

>> WELL, SO, I MEAN, YOU'RE CORRECT ABOUT HOSPITALIZATIONS LEVELLING OUT, BUT THE FACT IS WE ARE STILL AT OUR HIGHEST NUMBERS OF COVID CASES ON A WEEKLY AVERAGE.

AND SO IT'S LOOKING LIKE THE PEAK IS STILL GOING TO CONTINUE WHEN IT COMES TO THOSE NUMBERS.

BUT, NO, I MEAN, NEXT WEEK AND THE WEEK AFTER WE'LL BE KEEPING AN EYE ON HOSPITALIZATIONS, BECAUSE THOSE TEND TO BE ABOUT TWO WEEKS AFTER THE PEAK TO KEEP AN EYE ON WHEN FOLKS HAVE TO GO GET MORE AND SEVERE CARE.

>> Tim: THE NUMBERS ARE DOWN, BUT THE NUMBERS ARE STILL HIGH.

SO WE'RE NOT OUT OF THE WOODS.

>> OH, YEAH.

>> Tim: WE'RE ALWAYS LOOKING FOR A SILVER LINING IN THIS STORY AND THAT MIGHT BE ONE.

OKAY.

PEOPLE SAY YOU CAN NEVER FILL A HALF HOUR WITH THIS PANEL.

GUESS WHAT, WE DID, AND WE DID IT WITH GREAT PINACHE AND THANK YOU ALL FOR BEING PART OF OUR PROGRAM.

WE APPRECIATE IT MUCH.

OVER ALL OF THESE PUBLIC TV STATIONS HOPEFULLY NEXT WEEK YOU CAN WATCH THE GOVERN NOR'S STATE OF THE STATE MESSAGE AND AFTERWARDS WE'LL BE HERE TO PUT IT ALL IN PERSPECTIVE WHICH IS WHAT WE DO.

SEE YOU THEN.

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