♪ ♪ ♪ To welcome back, our OTR guest this week is state senator her her, Jr. who has some problems with the Curtis Hertel who has problems with the Republicans.

The post debate over the governor's state of the state and a communication gap between she and the republican leaders.

On the OTR panel we have Kyle, Lauren Gibbons and Rick Pluta, sitting with us as we get the inside out, off the record.

>> Production of off the record is made possible in fart by the following.

>> Business leaders for Michigan has a strategic plan to make Michigan a top ten state in the nation for jobs, personal income and a healthy economy.

Learn more at Michigan's road to top10.com.

>> And now this edition of off the record with Tim.

>> Thank you very much, welcome back to our Zoom edition of off the record, a really busy week, we had state of the state and news conferences after that, but first let's say hello to our panel this morning, illustrious group of Lauren Gibbons where the fish in the tank, how many fish do you have in there, Lauren?

>> Right now probably like five or six in there.

>> Do they consume one another or not?

>> Not usually.

>> Okay.

Enough of that.

And say hello to Rick Pluta.

Nice to have the three of you on board.

>> Later Curtis Hertel will join us but right now a communication gap as if the governor and republican leaders in the legislature don't have enough problems over COVID we can now add this, how are they talking to one another or not?

>> At the end of her state of the state message last night the governor spoke directly to the two republican legislative leaders.

>> Now, to the legislative leaders tuning in, our job now is to fix the damned road ahead together.

>> And today, those two republican legislative leaders spoke back to her.

>> I was glad to hear the governor say she wanted to work in a bipartisan manner.

That's what the people of this state are hungry for.

They are tired of political bickering.

So I look forward to her new state of cooperation.

>> The governor counters she is not the one who has been bickering.

>> I have taken a lot of heat.

I have taken a lot of ugliness my way, I don't return fire because I know this, at the end of the day, we have to do what we can to find some Exxon ground.

>> But the republican leaders have some advice for the governor.

>> The senate republican leader says the governor needs to start talking to him.

Since March13 of last year, I have been invited to one conversation with the governor but invited to many presentations.

The point being this, you can't govern, you can't acknowledge input from others by doing one way, one-sided presentations.

It requires a conversation.

>> The governor counters she is already doing that.

>> You know, whether it is principal to principal or at the staff level, we have got ongoing conversations happening.

>> The Republicans argue, for example, if they had been consulted beforehand they could have helped the governor with the bouncy rollout of the COVID vaccine program, but, quote there was not one conversation.

>> But I guarantee you when we talk about different solutions it almost always results in approving the best one.

And even at the end disagree on the final solution but at least people had a chance to have input.

And that is not happening and that is not what people of Michigan signed up for when they elected this governor.

>> So it is pretty clear this trio does to the agree on the quality of their dialogue.

And it is equally as clear that they don't clean it up it will be tough to pass anything.

>> So Kyle, how serious is this communication thing or is this just a half a day for I are?

>> No, this isn't a half a day for I are, Tim, this has been going on for well over a year now, I would say a year and a half, the relationship between the legislative leaders and the governor really haven't improved since the fallout over the damned roads and the governor's 45-cent gallon gas tax increase.

You know, I think, you know, when these -- specifically Mike Shirkey and Governor Whitmer, they started off very well, they worked together well in getting to no fault auto insurance proposal pass but something happened during the discussion on a gasoline tax.

I think the governor felt like she went above and beyond in letting Mike Shirkey get a win with that reformed auto no fault.

I mean, she didn't get a unanimous support on the democratic side, her supporters in signing that and I think she felt like Mike Shirkey didn't go far enough or use willing to bargain enough.

He took kind of a I will give you 15 cents and that's as far as I am going, end of story done and she thought it was going to be more of a negotiation, she would be able to get something higher and it just has gone downhill from here, Tim.

This relationship has gone from distrust to just simply not talking at all.

They worked through the staff during the lame duck period.

Something does have to change here.

It is hard to imagine that they are going to be able to go through another two years by simply not talking to each other.

>> >> Yeah, and to echo Kyle's sentiment this is is going to be an ongoing issue.

And I think one of the, you know, storylines that we should, we need to beology here is how this impacts the supplemental spending for COVID-19 as well as the next state budget conversation.

Now, since the pandemic began, one area that seems to be easier to reach bipartisan consensus on was the money, and there was a budget that passed and with relatively little public fanfare.

We had a bipartisan supplemental go through at the end of the year that had a little bit more pushback, but it does appear that this cycle that federal funding, the plan that governor put forward, you know, there is at least several Republicans in the caucus that want to some how tie the federal spending to new actions by the administration, so that is obviously not going to go over well with the administration, so it remains to be seen how this continues can to impact the spending portion of this, but if it does, that is money that is going to schools, vaccines, very important piece of legislation.

So I think that is something we all need to be watching for.

>> There was a culture set after the auto insurance negotiation where Republicans came to conclude they could just wait Governor Whitmer out, and even though speaker Wentworth wasn't in charge then, he was in the legislature and that sort of became the de facto republican position in the legislature, then along came the COVID-19 crisis and the governor assumed a lot of unilateral authority to deal with that to the chagrin and frustration of Republicans and they have been trying to sort of push her off that point ever since.

And I think with some success they have had some court victories, but at the same time, the governor has been able to pivot from the authority of her executive authority to the authority of the Department of Health & Human Services and will have the director later on to -- I am sorry, the director's the husband later on to talk at least a little bit about the legislative side of that dispute.

And so now there is just been this kind of, you know, immovable object, unmovable force, you know, trying to push the other down, and we will see how this plays out in terms of COVID response, especially as, you know, these executive orders are, you know, set to expire.

The interesting thing here, when I talk to the governor the other day, she was quite candid about this senate relationship, quote, the relationship needs a lot of work, which is an understatement and now we have just an ugly ping-pong game going on back and forth.

On just literally hours before the governor delivered a bipartisan state of the state address, what did the senate Republicans do?

They stiffed her by blocking 13 appointments to boards and commissions and as Mr.Shirkey explained yesterday, it was not to make a score 0 up point but to make the point that we quantity this conversation.

And who is going to -- who is going to blink first here, Kyle?

Or what needs to be done?

Do we need some adult to come in the room with these three to tell them how to work together?

>> Honestly, Tim, I think they need to have a new subject to work on together, because I don't know if it is going to to be the COVID response.

The governor has gotten this far doing COVID 19 response by herself, and I don't know if she -- and I don't mean to be rude on this but I don't know if she feels like the legislative leaders are going to add valuable input in her decision-making process.

I mean she has been consulting with doctors and other governors and people of that authority and I am hot quite sure that she values the legislative opinion on this, because I don't know if she -- if she really believes that they have anything to add.

So I think that what they need is a new subject to work on.

Last term it was criminal justice reform, I don't know if there is anything more they can work on than that front but there needs to be something else they can work on together, maybe it is economic development or something like that, but this subject, we are just way too far down the road and the governor has got her own set time frame in how she is doing this in her own kind of kitchen cabinet.

I don't know if they can work together on this particular issue, frankly.

>> Lauren, but based on what those two leaders said yesterday, doesn't she have to bring them in, Kyle, with your statement notwithstanding and at least, if you will, give them lip service to let them have some input?

>> I think that big area that they have recognized is spending.

They have to have a role in that spending process and that seems to be the direction they are going.

In addition I have heard, you know, several folks mention, using the tools in their toolbox and I think they are looking at the tools in their toolbox and they are looking at these senate appointments and they are looking at appropriations and so, you know, we will see how they wield that as the conversations move forward and I do think that they are going continue trying both through public pressure campaigns for areas of the COVID-19 response that they see are eliciting a public reaction.

I think two of those areas are restaurants and high school sports seems to be the ones they are focused on right now.

So I think that moving forward they will probably, you know, try to edge their way in or try to public policy through pressuring the administration,.

>> Let's pick up on the high school sports thing, Rick, this has really turned into, shall Shah we say a sticky wicket for the governor.

>> It has, although even the governor has signaled that there could be some relaxing of the restrictions on that.

Getting back to Lauren's point that, you know, what Republicans did when they rejected those appointments is said that the appointments aren't just going to be bargaining about the appointments.

The appointments are going to be -- are going to become a universal card to be played on whatever it is that the senate Republicans want to negotiate on, which is an expansion of how that authority is traditionally used.

They want horse trading on a number of issues and high school sports would be one of them and the governor, if she is going to play that game, which she will not want to, has to be very careful.

I think that she tacitly acknowledged this, that she doesn't give away the authority that she has and that her health department has to deal with a crisis that is always changing in its parameters.

>> Well the governor made it clear in the news conference earlier this week she was not going to barter the public health issue at the hands and at the throne of the Republicans in the senate who he is basically said were reckless with this, and one of the gentlemen sitting on the that is floor watching this unfold was the gentleman we are welcoming in right now, senator Curtis Hertel, Jr., and senator, welcome to the program and it is nice to have you back, there you are.

How are you doing, sir?

>> Good, my friend, how are you?

>> Yes.

Give me a word, as you heard all of that unfold on the senate floor, what were you thinking?

>> Well, this is beyond what historically any role the senate has ever played when it dime appointments.

The idea that we rejected people without even having a hearing, without seeing any of their qualifications, I would point out someone like Susanna Selleck who has a record of actually prosecuting cases of violence against children, who is a perfect choice to be the ombudsman for the state, and I don't think anyone could argue that not having an ombudsman would make us safer, and the idea that they would reject a qualified person out of hand because of some political fight with the governor I think is unconscionable.

>> Well, would you concede that they have the right to block nominations if they don't want to pass them in order to extend her a message?

>> One, I don't think it is a proportional response but two what I would say is, just because you have the right to do something doesn't make it the correct thing to do.

You know, since Michigan's history has never been how those processes have worked and so, no, I don't think it is a proper role at all.

>> Kyle?

>> Senator, you have been in politics your entire life, how would you describe the partisanship that we are seeing right now at the Capitol?

>> I think unfortunately the partisanship that is in Washington, D.C. has trickled down to the capital, and, you know, at this point everything from mass to free and fair election have become political talking points and I think that is frankly sad.

>> is it as worse as you have ever seen it?

>> I don't know, there have been tough times before, Kyle.

>> Yeah.

>> You know, everyone talks about my dad and -- when they were in shared power and how it was a wonderful time and it was, but it was not a kumbaya moment at the beginning of that process.

At one point -- at one point my dad talked about, you know, 20 pieces of silver and referring to somebody as Judas on the floor of the house.

They tried to steal each other's members.

At one point Paul was on the phone and hung it up and he was so angry that one of his kids asked if Democrats were people.

I mean there have been tough times before.

I goal like good people can find a way out of tough times, but certainly right now is beyond what I have seen recently.

>> Lauren.

>> Senator, at this point after this week's actions how worried are you that this partisanship is going to infiltrate conversations about getting that value money to, you know, pay for vaccines and schools and various other issues?

>> Well, I think that is one of the most disappointing parts of this week.

You know, trying to hold hostage money for the vaccine rollout, trying to hold hostage money to invest in our schools that we know need to recover, I just don't understand how those things can be reasonable responses.

And, you know, what they have asked is that the economy is open for those things to two out.

What I would say is that not discounting the pain that certain businesses have been in throughout this process, because they certainly have, but as of Monday, the only things that I know that are shut down are water parks and gentlemen's clubs.

So at the end of the day, I mean are we going to withhold money from vaccines and withhold money for our kids because water parks, which I don't think are operating right now and gentlemen's clubs are shut down?

I think at some point we have to be, you know, reasonable and find a way.

And that's I think hardest part of all of this is, you know, form -- while I understand people's frustration with some of the orders, 50 states have all kind of limitations on different areas of the economy in order to keep people safe.

This is not only a Michigan thing.

Certainly we have gone farther in certain cases but the answer can't be that we have no restrictions and nothing is ever opened up, so what I ask my republican colleagues is tell us what you are for.

It is really easy to say what you against and what I have seen is, you know, they are against the mask mandate and against any restrictions on restaurants.

They are against any orders that would protect the public health at all, and so at some point, you know, if they were willing to actually put out a real plan and what that would look like then I think it would be a serious conversation but they haven't.

And so what we have seen over and over again is a basically an attempt to use this for political reasons, but never to put out a plan of their known that regard.

>> Rick.

>> Well, even though it is not my job to represent the republican position that what Republicans have said is, therefore, is a more regional maybe county by county approach to dealing with this crisis, what they are for is reopening more aspects of the economy and giving people more options to make their own decisions on that.

So just with that position represented I was there during shared power and it did get heated and difficult and the resolutions to controversies were typically something along the lines of giving both sides, Republicans and Democrats a win, that they could go back to their constituencies and claim, so in this situation, what is a win-win where, you know, Republicans and democrats, the Whitmer administration and the legislative -- legislators, republican majorities can go back and say, here is what we bargained in our favor.

>> Well, I think we have done that.

I think we did that with no fault reform.

I think you have to -- again, when you talk about the economy needs to be open is their answer, as of Monday the only things that are still shut down in the economy, again, are water parks and gentlemen's clubs.

I don't think there is anything beyond that.

There are certainly restrictions on other places and I guess we can debate what those restrictions should be but the answer can't be none.

So I actually don't have a problem with a regional approach.

I don't think it should be managed on a county by county level but I do think that -- because the virus doesn't know about political boundaries of the state but I do think that it is reasonable to look at certain areas of the state and say that, you know, Washington county Quijas a new variant should be different than up north, for example, but like the resolution we passed this week on school sports said that all of those -- all that has to be open regardless of whether the variant is, I can't imagine that Washington county should be treated the same as -- so I think that there can be reasonable discussions there.

I agree that -- I agree with that, but, you know, I think part of the problem is that they have never acknowledged when the governor has actually negotiated and come to the table.

So for example, those the number one priority for the senate Republicans last term was no fault reform, they got it in the first three months of the session year, and negotiated a bipartisan package.

Since then, I don't -- I have not seen the same give back, so if they want to receive the benefits of negotiating we have to be willing to negotiate as well.

>> Senator, let's talk strategy in the state senate.

The Republicans currently have 20 votes.

Have you guys, you and Mr.an neck in the caucus thought about picking off a couple of Republicans and add them to your votes and you could pass this stuff that you want?

>> Listen, there are very good people in the senate republican caucus and yes talk to them on a regular basis.

I don't think any of them are switching parties tomorrow.

>> I am not asking them to switch parties.

You are asking them to vote on your plan.

>> Well, the road doesn't work like that, as you know.

The actual body is controlled by the majority party and they would have to change their votes on procedural issues in order for that--you know, we will keep having conversations but I don't see anybody who is pushing to make that change.

>> All right.

So you are not -- there is no strategy, hidden strategy at some point to pop, say we have two republican votes and now we can do what we want?

You are ruling that out; is that correct, sir?

>> I didn't say there is no -- there is certainly no hidden strategy, no.

I mean, listen I talk to my colleagues all the time and I wish they would come over to my side on several issues but I don't see a massive switch in who they are.

>> Okay.

Kyle, go ahead.

>> All right.

So senator last week your wife was appointed the next Department of Health & Human Services director.

Is it fair to say now they are the, the Hertels are the power couple in town?

>> I am incredibly proud of my wife?

Se one of the smartest people I know.

They she is one I don't have the most dedicated public servants I know and incredibly proud of what she has done for state government and what she will do to lead us out of this pandemic.

I think she was the perfect choice.

>> Some might say this is a conflict having her being the Health & Human Services director, arguably the most powerful didn't in all of state government and you being in the state senate.

>> Yeah.

I mean, I don't know how the world is going to void that, we keep our lives separate and at the dinner table we have more important things to talk about.

You know, we have four kids, so we have always kept our work separate.

I have removed myself from the subcommittee that funds other Department of Health & Human Services.

I think that was the appropriate thing to do, but short of that, you know, I am not going to resign from the senate and I would never stand in my wife's way of her career, so I am not sure there are a whole lot of options there, Kyle.

>> Lauren.

>> Senator, so you mentioned that there have been a lot of partisan battles in the legislature before, and what do you think it would take to maybe push through this current partisan rut here?

Is there anything on your mind that you think could potentially break it, like a policy issue or anything that can be done at this point?

>> Well, I would hope it would be the recovery of the state.

I mean, you look at Michigan, we have actually economically weathered COVID more than any other state in the country.

Consumer confidence is higher in Michigan than almost anywhere and I believe that it has a lot to do with people's trust in the governor to manage the virus and to save lives.

But how we are going get out of this I think is the most important thing, so to me, you know, we should be able to all agree on investing in vaccine rollout.

We should all be able to agree that investing in our kids' schools, we should all be able to agree to help small businesses that have been hurt through this process.

We should be able to agree to help other employees.

Those are things that we should be able to work on.

>> Senator I have to jump in.

Are you -- ready for a little over time?

>> Yes.

Absolutely.

Okay.

Good.

Let's go to close credits and then come back to WKAR.org for more of our conversation with senator Curtis Hertel, Jr. see you then.

>> This is made possible in part by the following.

Business leaders for Michigan has a strategic plan to make Michigan a top10 state in the nation for jobs, personal income and healthy economy.

Learn more at Michigan's road to top ten.com.

>> For more off the record, visit WKAR.org.

Michigan public television stations have contributed to the production costs of off the record with Tim Skubic.