>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

ECUADOR IN CRISIS.

AFTER AN EXTRAORDINARY 24 HOURS.

WE'LL LOOK AT HOW THE COUNTRY DESCENDED INTO OUT OF CONTROL GANG VIOLENCE, AND A STATE OF EMERGENCY.

>>> THEN, TROUBLE FOR TRUMP.

AFTER THE FORMER PRESIDENT FACED A SKEPTICAL COURT OVER HIS IMMUNITY CLAIMS.

I'M JOINED BY CONSTITUTIONAL LAW EXPERT NOAH FELDMAN.

>>> PLUS, AMID ISRAEL'S RELENTLESS WAR WITH HAMAS IN GAZA, THE IDF SAYS ITS ACTIONS ARE PROPOSITIONAL.

YUVAL ABRAHAM JOINS ME WITH HIS INVESTIGATIVE REPORTING THAT COULD INDICATE OTHERWISE.

>>> AND THE NEW FILM TELLING THE HARROWING TALE OF TWO MIGRANTS AS THEY TRY TO REACH ITALY.

THE MAN WHO INSPIRED THE FILM, AND ITS DIRECTOR.

♪♪ >>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

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>>> ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK, SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

ECUADOR HAS DECLARED IT'S FACES AN INTERNAL ARMED CONFLICT.

SECURITY FORCES HAVE BEEN ORDERED TO NEUTRALIZE SEVERAL CRIMINAL GROUPS ACCUSED OF SPREADING EXTREME VIOLENCE.

NOW, IT COMES AFTER AN EXTRAORDINARY 24 HOURS THAT SAW VIOLENCE BROADCAST LIVE ON TELEVISION AFTER MASKED GUNMEN STORMED A TV STATION, TAKING STAFF HOSTAGE.

NOW, THE COUNTRY IS IN A STATE OF EMERGENCY, WITH REPORTS OF LOOTING AND EXPLOSIONS.

THE TRIGGER APPEARS TO BE THE ESCAPE OF A MAJOR GANG LEADER FROM PRISON.

ECUADOR WAS ONCE A TOURIST-FRIENDLY, PEACEFUL ISLAND IN AN UNSTABLE REGION.

BUT THANKS TO THE DRUG TRADE, VIOLENCE HAS STEADILY BEEN RISING IN RECENT YEARS.

CORRESPONDENT PATRICK OPPMANN EXPLAINS WHAT LED TO THIS POINT.

>> Reporter: AS CAMERAS BROADCAST LIVE, ARMED GUNMEN TAKE EMPLOYEES OF A TV STATION IN ECUADOR HOSTAGE.

THE JOURNALISTS ARE THREATENED AND FORCED TO THE FLOOR AT GUNPOINT, WHILE VIEWERS WATCH.

THE LATEST SCENES OF OUT OF CONTROL GANG VIOLENCE PLAGUING THE SOUTH AMERICAN NATION.

ECUADORIANS SAY THEY ARE IN SHOCK.

>> Translator: ALL CITIZENS ARE AFRAID.

TODAY, THERE ARE ATTACKS EVERYWHERE.

>> Reporter: ON MONDAY, ECUADOR'S PRESIDENT DECLARED A STATE OF EMERGENCY, A DAY AFTER THE GOVERNMENT SAID A NOTORIOUS GANG LEADER ESCAPED FROM PRISON BEFORE HIS TRANSFER TO A MAXIMUM SECURITY FACILITY.

>> Translator: THE TIME IS OVER FOR WHEN THOSE CONVICTED OF DRUG TRAFFICKING AND MURDER TELL THE GOVERNMENT WHAT TO DO.

>> Reporter: THE GOVERNMENT IMPLEMENTED A CURFEW, AND MOBILIZED A MANHUNT OF 3,000 POLICE OFFICERS AND MEMBERS OF THE ARMED FORCES TO SEARCH FOR THE ESCAPED GANG LEADER.

THE GANG STRUCK BACK ON TUESDAY, RAIDING THE TV STATION, TAKING POLICE AND PRISON GUARDS HOSTAGE, SETTING OFF BOMBS, AND ATTACKING A UNIVERSITY.

ECUADOR HAD LONG BEEN SPARED THE EPIDEMIC OF VIOLENCE, CARRIED OUT BY DRUG CARTELS THROUGHOUT MUCH OF THE REGION.

BUT AS THE COUNTRY HAS INCREASINGLY BECOME A KEY SHIPMENT POINT FOR ILLEGAL DRUGS HEADING TO EUROPE AND THE U.S., LOCAL GANGS, PARTNERED WITH CARTELS, HAVE BATTLED EACH OTHER, AND THE GOVERNMENT, FOR CONTROL.

IN 2023, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE FERNANDO VIA VICENSIO, WAS ASSASSINATED AFTER NAMING INDIVIDUALS HE SAYS WERE INVOLVED IN THE DRUG TRADE.

THE SIX HITMEN ARRESTED FOR HIS KILLING FOR APPARENTLY MURDERED IN PRISON, AS WELL.

HIS RUNNING MATE ON TUESDAY CALLED FOR THE COUNTRY TO UNITE TO DEFEAT THE GANGS.

>> Translator: THIS IS THE MOMENT THAT ECUADOR STANDS AND LEAVES BEHIND POLITICAL TERRORISM.

>> Reporter: THE COUNTRY'S PRESIDENT ON TUESDAY DECLARED SEVERAL OF THE GANGS TERRORIST ORGANIZATIONS, IN ORDER FOR THE ARMED FORCES TO, QUOTE, NEUTRALIZE THE VIOLENCE.

POLICE AT THE TV STATION SAID THEY ARETSED 1 3 OF THE ALLEGED GUNMEN.

AS THEY DECLARE WAR, THERE'S NO SIGN OF THE GANGS BACKING DOWN.

>> PATRICK OPPMANN THERE.

LET'S GET MORE NOW, RBERTO IZURIETA KA NOVA JOINS ME NOW.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

FIRST OF ALL, DOES THE GOVERNMENT HAVE CONTROL OF THE COUNTRY RIGHT NOW?

>> WHAT HAPPENED YESTERDAY, THAT THE WHOLE COUNTRY AND THE WORLD SAW, THE KIDNAPPING OF THE EMPLOYEES AT THE NATIONAL TV, WE HAVE TO TANK THE PROFESSIONAL WORK THAT THE POLICE OFFICER DID, BECAUSE THEY HAVE CLOSE TO 200 HOSTAGES, AND OPERATION WENT EXTRAORDINARY WELL, AND NOBODY WAS HURT.

AND THE PERPETRATORS WERE DETAINED.

AGAIN, THIS ALL IN THIS NEW FRAMEWORK THAT WE HAVE THE CAPACITY TO OPERATE THAT WE NEEDED TO TREAT THIS SITUATION AND A DIFFERENT FRAMEWORK.

FOR US NOW, THOSE ARE TERRORIST CRIMINALS AND WE NEED A DIFFERENT FRAMEWORK IN ORDER TO OPERATE TO DEFEND THE INNOCENT CITIZENS.

YESTERDAY'S OPERATION WAS A GREAT SUCCESS FOR THE PROFESSIONALS IN THEIR OPERATION.

>> SO, THANKFULLY, THAT ONE OPERATION WAS A SUCCESS, WE ALL SAW THIS UNFOLD ON TELEVISION ON SOCIAL MEDIA, AND IT WAS FRIGHTENING TO WATCH, TO HEAR THE GUNSHOTS IN THE BACKGROUND.

IT IS REASSURING TO KNOW THAT THAT SITUATION HAS BEEN DIFFUSED AND THAT EVERYONE AT THE STATION, ALL THOSE HOSTAGES, HAVE BEEN RELEASED, AND THAT NOBODY WAS HARMED OR KILLED.

THAT HAVING BEEN SAID, THE COUNTRY IS IN A STATE OF EMERGENCY.

THESE TERROR -- THESE ORGANIZATIONS, THESE CRIME GROUPS, ARE NOW BEING LABELED TERRORISTS BY YOUR GOVERNMENT, YOUR PRESIDENT, SO, LET ME GO BACK TO MY INITIAL QUESTION, IS THE GOVERNMENT IN CONTROL OF THE COUNTRY RIGHT NOW?

>> THE BIGGEST THREAT AT THIS POINT IS THE PRISON.

THE PRISON SYSTEM IN ECUADOR WAS BUILT NOT FOR THIS KIND OF THREAT.

IT CAME DOWN THAT IT WAS HEAVEN FOR THE CRIMINALS TO OPERATE.

ACCORDING WITH THE SYSTEM THAT WE HAVE FOR MANY YEARS, AND IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND FOR ANYONE THAT COULD BE IN LATIN AMERICA OR ECUADOR.

YOU CANNOT HAVE -- THE AUTHORITIES CANNOT HAVE ANY GUNS IN THE PRISONS.

AND THE REALITY WAS, BECAUSE THERE WERE REHABILITATION CENTERS, YOU COULD NOT HAVE WEAPONS.

SO, YOU HAD PEOPLE THAT WERE HELPING THEM IN THEIR REHABILITATION PROCESS, AND THE REALITY, THEY WERE OPERATING AND NOW WE ARE CHANGING THAT, BECAUSE WE NEED TO CREATE A NEW JAIL SYSTEM FOR THESE KINDS OF CRIMINALS, WHERE THEY ARE NOT IN THEIR HANDS, BUT THEY WILL BE IN THE HANDS OF THE ARMED OFFICERS WHO ARE CONTROLLING THOSE PRISONS, SO THAT'S ONE OF THE BIGGEST CHANGES THAT WE HAVE TO DO, IT'S GOING TO TAKE TIME, BECAUSE YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THOUSANDS OF CRIMINALS THAT WERE OPERATING FROM THE PRISONS.

THAT'S WHY THE ONES THAT ARE -- THAT LEFT THE PRISON, IT WAS BECAUSE OF THIS DECISION.

THEY UNDERSTOOD THAT THAT WOULD NOT BE A HAVEN FOR THEM TO OPERATE THEIR CRIMINAL ACTIVITIES.

FROM THE PRISONS.

SO, ALL THOSE KIND OF THINGS WE HAVE TO CHANGE WILL TAKE TIME, BUT WE HAVE NOW, FIRST OF ALL, THE LEGAL FRAMEWORK, THE UNITY OF THE COUNTRY, THAT SUPPORTS THIS MEASURE.

THE WHOLE CONGRESS YESTERDAY IN UNANIMOUS VOTE, WILL ALLOW THE POLICE OFFICERS AND THE MEMBERS OF THE ARMY TO COME BACK TO THEIR LEVEL.

ANOTHER REGULATION THAT WE HAVE, IT WAS ORIGINALLY AN OFFICER COULD NOT SHOOT IF THERE WAS A THREAT, BUT THEY NEEDED TO WAIT FOR THE CRIMINAL TO SHOOT FIRST, BECAUSE IT WAS ONLY WHEN THEY RESPOND, AND THEN, WE START OTHERS LIKE, IT HAS TO BE PROPOSITIONAL.

>> YEAH.

I JUST -- I JUST HAVE TO SAY, IT IS ALARMING TO HEAR A GOVERNMENT REPRESENTATIVE SAY POINT-BLANK THAT THE COUNTRY'S PENITENTIARY SYSTEM HAS COMPLETELY FAILED, OBVIOUSLY THIS FALLS ON THE HEELS OF THE ESCAPE OF THE LEADER OF THE COUNTRY'S LARGEST GANG OVER THE WEEKEND.

DO YOU HAVE ANY INDICATION AS TO WHERE HE IS RIGHT NOW?

>> FOR SAFETY REASONS, I CANNOT MENTION WHERE ARE THE PLACES WHERE WE BELIEVE HE IS, BUT THE WHOLE FORCES OF THE STATE ARE AFTER HIM AND I AM CONVINCED THAT WE WILL CATCH HIM.

BECAUSE HE DOES NOT HAVE THE PROTECTION THAT HE HAS FROM THE OLD SYSTEM, WHERE THEY WERE OPERATING FROM THE PRISON SYSTEM.

THAT'S THE THING THAT NEEDS TO CHANGE.

IT WILL TAKE TIME, AND IT'S A VERY COMPLEX OPERATION, BUT WE HAVE THE FRAMEWORK NOW TO DO IT.

IT WOULD TAKE TIME, BUT WE HAVE THE COMMITMENT AND THE SUPPORT OF THE CONGRESS, THE SUPPORT OF THE PEOPLE TO DO THAT.

>> DO THE PEOPLE THERE, DO YOU, AND DOES CONGRESS, HAVE SUPPORT OF A NEWLY ELECTED 36-YEAR-OLD PRESIDENT WHO WE SHOULD REMIND OUR VIEWERS, AS WE SAW IN THAT PACKAGE DURING THE RUNUP TO THE ELECTION, ONE OF THE CANDIDATES, WHO HAD BEEN VERY CRITICAL OF THESE GANGS, WAS MURDERED.

DOES YOUR GOVERNMENT, DOES YOUR PRESIDENT, HAVE THE SUPPORT OF HIS PEOPLE, OF HIS GOVERNMENT, TO DO WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE?

>> YES, HE DOES.

AND YESTERDAY, WE SAW THE SUPPORT.

THE CONGRESS MET AND IN AN UNANIMOUS VOTE SUPPORT THE MEASURE THAT WE HAVE TAKING.

WHAT THE DECISION THAT HE'S MAKING ARE VERY BRAVE, AND IS -- THE DECISION IS TO STOP THIS SYSTEM THAT WILL NOT WORK AND WE NEED CHANGE, A VERY DIFFICULT CHANGE.

AND IT'S A VERY BRAVE DECISION, AND THE COUNTRY AND THE COURTS HAVE RESPONDED WITH SUPPORT IN THESE NEEDED CHANGES.

>> THE DRUG WAR IS LARGELY TO BLAME FOR WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO THE COUNTRY OVER THE PAST SEVERAL YEARS, ONCE A COUNTRY OF PEACE, AN ISLAND OF PEACE IN A REGION THAT WAS HIGHLY UNSTABLE, IS NOW CAUGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF IT.

WE'VE SEEN AN EXPLOSION IN THE MURDER RATE IN THE COUNTRY RIGHT NOW.

DO YOU HAVE THE RESOURCES TO ADDRESS EVERYTHING THAT YOU'VE LAID OUT IN TERMS OF YOUR PLANNING IN TACKLING THESE ISSUES?

AND IF NOT, ARE YOU TURNING TO NEIGHBORING COUNTRIES AND PERHAPS EVEN THE UNITED STATES FOR RESOURCES?

>> YESTERDAY, WE NOT ONLY RECEIVED THE SUPPORT, UNANIMOUS SUPPORT OF THE COUNTRY, THE COURT, BUT ALSO INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY.

THE PHONE CALLS AND THE MEETINGS FROM DIFFERENT INTERNATIONAL LEADERS.

WHO UNDERSTAND THAT THIS, THE CAUSES OF THIS CRISIS ARE SHARE, AND THEY ARE NOT ONLY CRIMINAL DRUG TRAFFICKERS, THEY ARE OTHER PEOPLE THAT TAKE ADVANTAGE OF VULNERABLE PEOPLE IN IMMIGRATION, THEY TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THEM, AND ANY KIND OF INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATION THAT TRY TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THOSE WHO ARE WEAKER.

SO, YES, WE HAVE RECEIVED, AND WE ARE RECEIVING, A LOT OF SUPPORT AND WE ARE WORKING JUST THIS MORNING, WE HAVE A MEETING WITH ALL THE AMBASSADORS IN ECUADOR.

YESTERDAY MORNING, FORTUNATELY, THERE WERE MANY PHONE CALLS FROM IMPORTANT -- FROM ALL OF FRIENDS, INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, TO OFFERING THE SUPPORT THAT WE NEED TO FIGHT THIS FIGHT, AND WE ARE CONVINCED THAT IT'S NOT GOING TO BE -- THE DECISION HAS BEEN MADE, AND WE WILL OVERCOME.

>> NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER IN THE U.S. TO THE PRESIDENT JAKE SULLIVAN TWEETED JUST A SHORT TIME AGO, WE STRONGLY COMMEND THE RECENT MILITANT ATTACKS IN ECUADOR.

WE'RE COMMITTED TO SUPPORTING ECUADORIANS' SECURITY AND PROSPERITY AND ENSURING THEY ARE BROUGHT TO JUSTICE.

HAVE YOU BEEN IN CONTACT WITH ANYBODY IN THE U.S. GOVERNMENT IN THE PAST 24 HOURS?

>> THE GOVERNMENT, YES.

WE HAVE RECEIVED FRANK, DIRECT SUPPORT OF THE UNITED STATES AND MANY OTHER NATIONS THAT ARE OUR FRIENDS, TO HELP US IN THIS FIGHT.

YES, WE HAVE.

AND WE ARE VERY THANKFUL FOR THAT.

>> DOES THAT INCLUDE THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES?

>> NOT EXACTLY THE PRESIDENT, BUT AMBASSADORS AND MEMBERS, DIFFERENT MEMBERS OF THE -- OF THE ADMINISTRATION WHO HAS EXPRESSED THE DECISION AND THE SUPPORT OF THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES IN THIS FIGHT.

YES.

>> ROBERTO, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TAKING THE TIME AT THIS VERY CRITICAL MOMENT IN YOUR COUNTRY TO SPEAK WITH US.

WE APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>>> WE TURN NEXT TO THE UNITED STATES, AND THE ENDLESS LEGAL WOES OF DONALD TRUMP.

IN ONE OF HIS MANY COURT HEARINGS, THE FORMER PRESIDENT APPEARED BEFORE THE D.C.

CIRCUIT COURT OF APPEALS, CLAIMING IMMUNITY FROM PROSECUTION ON CHARGES THAT HE TRIED TO OVERTURN THE 2020 ELECTION.

TRUMP'S LAWYERS ARGUED THAT PROSECUTING HIM WOULD OPEN A, QUOTE, PANDORA'S BOX OF INDICTING OTHER FORMER PRESIDENTS FOR ACTIONS THEY TOOK IN OFFICE.

THE JUDGES DIDN'T SEEM TO BE BUYING IT, THOUGH, RAISING THE POTENTIALLY EXTREME IMPLICATIONS OF PRESIDENTIAL IMMUNITY.

NOAH FELDMAN IS A CONSTITUTIONAL SCHOLAR AT HARVARD WHO TESTIFIED AT TRUMP'S FIRST IMPEACHMENT HEARING AND JOINING ME NOW FROM CAMBRIDGE, MASSACHUSETTS.

NOAH, IT'S GOOD TO SEE YOU.

SO, AS WE NOTED YESTERDAY, MOST LEGAL EXPERTS AFTER SEEING, AFTER HEARING THAT HEARING WITH THE THREE APPELLATE COURT JUDGES, THEY SEEMED VERY SKEPTICAL ABOUT THE ARGUMENTS BEING MADE BEFORE THEM BY TRUMP'S LEGAL TEAM.

DO YOU SHARE THAT SKEPTICISM?

>> YES.

THE JUDGES WERE SKEPTICAL, AND THEY WERE RIGHT TO BE SKEPTICAL, BECAUSE TRUMP'S ARGUMENT THAT HE SHOULD SOMEHOW BE IMMUNE FROM CRIMINAL PROSECUTION FOR CRIMES THAT HE COMMITTED WHILE IN OFFICE JUST ISN'T GROUNDED IN LAW OR CONSTITUTIONAL LOGIC.

AND WHEN HIS LAWYERS PUSHED THE POINT TO THE -- TO THE MOMENT WHERE THEY TOOK THE VIEW THAT IF HE SENT S.E.A.L.

TEAM SIX TO KILL HIS POLITICAL OPPONENT DURING THE TIME OF HIS PRESIDENCY, THAT HE COULD THEN AVOID CRIMINAL PROSECUTION FOR THAT, I THINK PRETTY MUCH SUNK THEM.

I MEAN, THAT SHOWS YOU THE PRE POSTER THE WASNESS OF THAT.

>> WE HAVE SOUND FROM JUDGE PAN ON THAT LINE OF QUESTIONING.

>> I ASKED YOU A YES OR NO QUESTION, COULD A PRESIDENT WHO ORDERED S.E.A.L.

TEAM SIX TO ASSASSINATE A POLITICAL RIVAL WHO WAS NOT IMPEACHED, WOULD HE BE SUBJECT TO CRIMINAL PROSECUTION?

>> IF HE WERE IMPEACHED AND CONVICTED FIRST.

>> SO, YOUR ANSWER IS -- >> IS -- >> NO.

>> MY ANSWER IS QUALIFIED YES.

THERE IS A POLITICAL PROCESS THAT WOULD HAVE TO OCCUR UNDER THE STRUCTURE OF OUR CONSTITUTION.

>> ONCE YOU CONCEDE THAT PRESIDENTS CAN BE PROSECUTED UNDER SOME CIRCUMSTANCES, YOUR SEPARATION OF POWERS ARGUMENT FALLS AWAY.

>> SHE ALSO EXPANDED THAT HYPOTHETICAL LINE OF QUESTIONING BEYOND JUST S.E.A.L.

TEAM SIX, TARGETING ONE OF HIS RIVALS, IT WAS ALSO SELLING PARDONS OR STATE SECRETS.

DID YOU FIND HER LINE OF QUESTIONING AND THAT OF THE OTHER TWO JUDGES PERSUASIVE?

>> YES, IN THE SENSE THAT THEY SHOWED THAT THE WAY THAT THE TRUMP TEAM IS ARGUING THE CASE IS A SURE-FIRE LOSER.

YOU KNOW, HAD I BEEN THE TRUMP TEAM, AND I WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN THE TRUMP TEAM, I WOULD HAVE TRIED TO OFFER SOME MORE MODERATED POSITION THAN THE ONE THAT THEY TOOK.

BUT THEY WERE JUST GOING FOR -- FOR THE WHOLE BALL OF WAX AND YOU CAN UNDERSTAND WHY.

THEY'RE TRYING TO AVOID PROSECUTION FOR VERY SERIOUS CRIMES, AND THEY'RE TRYING TO MAKE THE MOST MAXIMALIST ARGUMENT IN HOPING THAT THE SUPREME COURT WILL TAKE THE CASE AND REACH A DIFFERENT CONCLUSION THAN IT SEEMS ALL BE CERTAIN THAT THE COURT OF APPEALS WILL.

>> I'M GLAD THAT YOU BROUGHT UP THE SUPREME COURT, BECAUSE YOU HAD WRITTEN IN DECEMBER THAT YOU THOUGHT THAT THEY SHOULD HEAR THIS CASE THAT WAS BROUGHT BEFORE THEM BY JACK SMITH.

HE REALLY WANTED TO CIRCUMVENT WHAT HE VIEWED AS THE TRUMP TEAM JUST BUYING TIME, KICKING THE CAN DOWN THE ROAD AND AVOID GOING TO THE APPELLATE COURT, JUST GO STRAIGHT TO THE SUPREME COURT, THEY REJECTED THAT.

GIVEN WHAT YOU'VE SEEN TRANSPIRE YESTERDAY, GIVEN THE SKEPTICISM IN THEIR LINE OF QUESTIONING, I MEAN, THE QUESTION HAS BEEN RAISED NOW AS TO WHETHER THE SUPREME COURT SHOULD EVEN TAKE THIS UP AT THIS POINT.

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> THE FIRST POINT IS THAT I THINK IT'S PROBABLE THAT THE COURT OF APPEALS IS GOING TO DECIDE THIS CASE AND DECIDE IT FAST IN ORDER TO GET THE TRIAL UP AND RUNNING.

AND THEN TRUMP WILL ASK THE SUPREME COURT TO CONSIDER THE CASE, AND I THINK THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS FOR THE COURT NOT TO SIT ON THAT QUESTION WITHOUT ANSWERING IT IN A WAY THAT EFFECTIVELY DELAYS TRUMP'S TRIAL DEEPER AND DEEPER INTO THE POLITICAL SEASON AND POTENTIALLY EVEN UNTIL AFTER THE NATIONAL ELECTION.

THE COURT SHOULD EITHER SAY RIGHT AWAY, WE'RE NOT HEARING THIS, WHICH MEANS THAT THE D.C.

CIRCUIT'S DECISION WOULD REMAIN IN PLACE, OR, THEY SHOULD SAY, WE'RE HEARING IT, AND THEY SHOULD HEAR IT ON THE DOUBLE AND THEMSELVES DECIDE IT REALLY QUICKLY.

IN TERMS OF WHETHER THEY SHOULD ACTUALLY HEAR IT, IT REALLY DEPENDS ON WHETHER YOU THINK THE COURT HAS AN OBLIGATION TO TAKE UP EVERY QUESTION OF NATIONAL IMPORTANCE.

I THINK THIS WOULD POTENTIALLY BE OF NATIONAL IMPORTANCE, THAT WOULD BE AN ARGUMENT FOR THEM TO TAKE THE CASE.

THEY CAN JUST SAY, WE HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH WHAT THE D.C.

CIRCUIT SAID, THAT IS CORRECT, AND THEY'LL BE DEFERRING TO THAT COURT.

>> HOW SOON DO YOU THINK WE COULD HEAR A DECISION FROM THE THREE JUDGES ON THE APPELLATE COURT YESTERDAY?

>> YOU KNOW, IT SOUNDED LIKE THEY HAD THEIR DUCKS IN A ROW AND KNEW WHAT THEY WANTED TO SAY, AND THEY COULD WRITE A RELATIVELY COMPACT DECISION AND GET IT OUT IN THE NEXT WEEK OR TWO.

AND I WOULD VERY MUCH LIKE TO SEE THAT.

THAT'S VERY FAST FOR THE D.C.

CIRCUIT, BUT I REMEMBER FROM YEARS AGO, WHEN I WAS A LAW CLERK ON THAT COURT, SOMETIMES IF THERE'S REAL CONSENSUS AMONG THE JUDGES ON A CASE, ONE OF THEM CAN GO BACK TO CHAMBERS AND START WORKING ON A DRAFT RIGHT AWAY AND CIRCULATE IT RELATIVELY QUICKLY TO THE OTHER JUDGES.

SO, IT'S WITHIN THE REALM OF POSSIBILITY THEY COULD GET IT OUT IN A WEEK OR TWO.

>> IF THEY RULE ALONG WITH JUDGE CHUTKAN INITIALLY, BEFORE GOING TO SUPREME COURT, TRUMP COULD ACTUALLY SAY THAT HE WOULD LIKE FOR THE FULL APPELLATE COURT TO HEAR THIS, NO?

>> YES, HE CAN.

HE CAN DO WHAT'S CALLED FILE FOR ENBANK REVIEW, WHICH MEANS ALL OF THE JUDGES OF THE D.C.

CIRCUIT, NOT JUST THE THREE WHO HEARD THIS CASE, WOULD REHEAR THE CASE.

NOW, THE WAY THAT WORKS IS THAT HE MAKES THAT REQUEST, AND THEN THE JUDGES OF THE D.C.

CIRCUIT HAVE TO VOTE ON WHETHER THEY WILL ALL REHEAR IT.

AND THAT TAKES A MAJORITY OF THEM TO DO THAT.

THAT, TOO, COULD BE DONE RELATIVELY QUICKLY.

AND I'M SURE HE WILL DO THAT, BECAUSE THAT'S THE STANDARD DELAYING TECHNIQUE, BUT AGAIN, THE D.C.

CIRCUIT JUDGES COULD RULE VERY QUICKLY THAT THEY'RE NOT GOING TO HEAR IT, ALL OF THEM TOGETHER.

>> AS WE NOTED, TRUMP AND ONE COULD BE DUBIOUS ABOUT HIS PERSONAL VIEWS, BUT HE ARGUES THAT THIS ISN'T JUST ABOUT HIM, IT'S SETTING PRECEDENT FOR OTHER PRESIDENTS, FOR PAST PRESIDENTS, THIS BLANKET IMMUNITY WOULD REALLY AVOID PROSECUTION FOR OTHER PRESIDENTS LIKE PRESIDENT OBAMA AND PRESIDENT BUSH.

I'D LIKE TO PLAY FOR OUR VIEWERS SOUND THAT JUSTIFIED THAT ARGUMENT FROM JOHN SAUER FROM TRUMP'S LEGAL TEAM.

>> TO AUTHORIZE THE PROSECUTION OF A PRESIDENT FOR HIS OFFICIAL ACTS WOULD OPEN A PANDORA'S BOX FROM WHICH THIS NATION MAY NEVER RECOVER.

IT WOULD AUTHORIZE, FOR EXAMPLE, THE INDICTMENT OF PRESIDENT BIDEN IN THE WESTERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS AFTER HE LEAVES OFFICE FOR MISMANAGING THE BORDER, ALLEGEDLY.

>> NOW, THE PROSECUTION RESPONDED THAT, A, WE HAVEN'T SEEN A SITUATION LIKE THIS IN 200 YEARS, THAT THERE'S NEVER BEEN ALLEGATIONS THAT A SITTING PRESIDENT HAS WITH PRY VAULT INDIVIDUALS IN USING THE LEVERS OF POWER SOUGHT TO FUNDAMENTALLY SUBVERT THE DEMOCRATIC PUBLIC AND THE ELECTORAL SYSTEM, BUT MR. PIERCE SAID, FRANKLY, IF THAT KIND OF FACT PATTERN ARIDESES AGAIN, I THINK IT WOULD BE AWFULLY SCARY IF THERE WEREN'T SOME SORT OF MECHANISM TO REACH THAT CRIMINALLY.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF SAUER'S ARGUMENT, AND WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE PROSECUTION'S RESPONSE?

>> THERE'S SOMETHING PROFOUNDLY PERVERSE, THAT'S THE ONLY WORD FOR IT, IN THE TRUMP TEAM'S ARGUMENT.

NOW YOU THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN GET CHARGED CRIMINALLY FOR CONDUCT YOU DID WHILE YOU WERE PRESIDENT IS IF YOU'VE REALLY ACTUALLY COMMITTED A GENUINE CRIME, AND ALMOST ALL PRESIDENTS THROUGHOUT OUR HISTORY WOULD BE VERY CAREFUL BEFORE CHARGING ANY FORMER PRESIDENT, THEY'D MAKE SURE IT WAS REALLY A CRIME, BECAUSE PRESIDENTS DON'T WANT TO START THE PRACTICE OF BEING PROSECUTED AFTER THEY LEAVE OFFICE.

BUT HERE'S THE REALLY PERVERSE PART.

TRUMP'S LAWYER WAS MAKING A KIND OF VEILED THREAT.

HE WAS SAYING, IF DONALD TRUMP IS ELECTED, HE WILL MAKE UP SOME VERY RIDICULOUS AND DOUBTFUL CRIMINAL CHARGES AND TRY TO GO AFTER JOE BIDEN.

I MEAN, YOU HEARD HIM SAY IT.

HE SAID, MAYBE BIDEN WOULD BE PROSECUTED FOR NOW HANDLING THE BORDER CORRECTLY.

THAT'S NOT WHAT CRIME.

IT'S UP TO THE PRESIDENT AS THE HEAD OF THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH TO DECIDE HOW WE'RE GOING TO POLICE THE BORDER.

SO, THERE COULDN'T BE ANY CRIME EVEN HINTED AT THERE.

SO, WHAT YOU'VE GOT IS TRUMP'S LAWYER SAYING, OUR CLIENT IS SO CRAZY THAT IF HE BECAME PRESIDENT, HE MIGHT CHARGE SOMEONE ELSE FOR WHAT'S NOT EVEN A CRIME AT ALL, AND THEREFORE, HE SHOULDN'T BE CHARGED FOR WHAT WERE CRIMES.

AND THAT'S PRETTY OUT THERE.

>> ANOTHER ARGUMENT, DEFENSE, REALLY, THAT TRUMP'S LAWYERS WERE MAKING, THE DOUBLE JEOPARDY CLAUSE, AND SUGGESTING HE HAD BEEN TRIED BY CONGRESS, THAT HE CAN'T AGAIN BY TRIED IN A COURT.

CAN YOU JUST DEBUNK THAT FOR OUR VIEWERS ENTIRELY?

>> YES.

YES.

THAT'S FLATLY FALSE.

DOUBLE JEOPARDY IS THE RULE THAT SAYS THAT IF YOU'VE BEEN TRIED IN FRONT OF A JURY FOR A CRIME, AND YOU HAVE BEEN ACQUITTED OF THAT CRIME, NOT A HUNG JURY, BUT YOU'VE BEEN ACQUITTED OF THAT CRIME, THEN YOU CAN'T BE TRIED AGAIN FOR THAT SAME CRIME.

AND THAT'S A GOOD PRINCIPLE AND IT'S IN OUR CONSTITUTION.

AN IMPEACHMENT PROCEEDING IS NOT A CRIMINAL TRIAL.

IT DOESN'T GO IN FRONT OF A JURY.

IT GOES IN FRONT OF THE SENATE.

THE STANDARD OF PROOF IS NOT PROOF BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT.

IT'S NOT CLEAR EXACTLY WHAT THE STANDARD IS, BUT IT'S A LOWER STANDARD THAN THAT.

AND IF YOU'RE IMPEACHED, YOU DON'T SUFFER ANY CRIMINAL CONSEQUENCES.

YOU JUST LOSE OFFICE.

SO, IN ALL OF THOSE WAYS, THE IMPEACHMENT TRIAL IS NOTHING LIKE A REAL CRIMINAL TRIAL.

IT'S ACTUALLY -- IMPEACHMENT IS A POLITICAL PROCESS CREATED BY THE CONSTITUTION SO THAT THE SITTING CONGRESS CAN IMPEACH AND THE SENATE REMOVE SOMEONE WHO HAS VIOLATED THE PRINCIPLES OF THE CONSTITUTION.

AND SO, IT'S NOT A PRERECK BY SILT FOR SUBSEQUENT CRIMINAL TRIAL.

IT'S A WAY TO KICK THE PRESIDENT OUT OF OFFICE.

>> AS IF WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH TRIALS AND CASES GOING BEFORE AN APPELLATE COURT, PERHAPS EVEN THE SUPREME COURT, THE SUPREME COURT NOW WILL BE ALSO LOOKING AS TO WHETHER TRUMP CAN LEGALLY BE ON A BALLOT, IN TWO STATES NOW, WE HAVE COLORADO AND MAINE.

THEY HAVE RULED THAT HE CANNOT BE ON THE BALLOT.

HOW DO YOU SUPPOSE THE SUPREME COURT WILL RESPOND TO THIS?

AND GIVEN ITS PRECEDENT, IF IT WAS TO STAND BY WHAT ITS PREVIOUS RULINGS WERE ON THE POWERS OF THE STATE, DOES THAT APPLY TO HOW YOU ENVISION THEM RULING THIS CASE?

>> LET ME BE SUPER CLEAR.

I AM NOT A PRO-TRUMP PERSON.

I TESTIFIED AT HIS FIRST IMPEACHMENT THAT HE OUGHT TO BE IMPEACHED AND REMOVED FROM OFFICE, SO, MY OWN STANCE IS CLEAR.

BUT THAT SAID, THE SUPREME COURT HAS MANY, MANY TOOLS THAT IT COULD USE TO GET TRUMP BACK ONTO THE BALLOT IN COLORADO AND IN MAINE, BECAUSE ALTHOUGH SECTION THREE OF THE 14th AMENDMENT DOES SAY, EXPLICITLY, THAT IF YOU WERE PREVIOUSLY AN OFFICER OF THE UNITED STATES AND YOU ENGAGED IN INSURRECTION, AND THAT YOU NO LONGER CAN BE, AND YOU CANNOT RUN AGAIN TO BECOME AN OFFICER OF THE UNITED STATES, THAT PRINCIPLE HAS NEVER PREVIOUSLY BEEN APPLIED TO A PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE.

AND THE SUPREME COURT HAS NEVER BEFORE ANSWERED THE QUESTION OF WHETHER THAT LAW EVEN APPLIES, ABSENT CONGRESS TAKING SOME ACTION.

IT'S NEVER ANSWERED THE QUESTION OF WHAT AN INSURRECTION IS.

IT'S NEVER ANSWERED THE QUESTION OF WHAT THE STANDARD OF PROOF WOULD HAVE TO BE.

SO, THERE ARE LOTS OF WAYS THAT THE CURRENT SUPREME COURT COULD FIND ITS WAY TO MAKING SURE THAT THE PRESIDENT, THE FORMER PRESIDENT, RATHER, GETS BACK ONTO THE BALLOT.

AND THE TRUTH IS, IF YOU'RE ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE THAT, LIKE ME, THINKS IT WOULD BE AWFUL IF DONALD TRUMP BECAME PRESIDENT, YOU SHOULDN'T BE TOO HOPEFUL THAT THE COURTS ARE MAGICALLY GOING TO SAVE US.

I THINK WE'RE GOING TO NEED THE AMERICAN PEOPLE TO TURN OUT, ALL OF US, AND VOTE IN THE WAY THAT COMING ELECTION.

>> CONSTITUTIONAL LAW WILL BE FRONT AND CENTER.

YOU'LL BE VERY BUSY THE NEXT FEW MONTHS.

THAT, WE CAN GUARANTEE.

NOAH FELDMAN, JUST UNBELIEVABLY INCREDIBLE TIMES THAT WE'RE LIVING THROUGH RIGHT NOW.

REALLY APPRECIATE YOUR INSIGHT AND EXPERTISE, THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU, THEY SURE ARE.

>>> WELL, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE ANTONY BLINKEN IS CONTINUING HIS TOUR OF THE MIDDLE EAST.

HE SAYS HE MADE CLEAR TO ISRAEL THAT PALESTINIANS IN GAZA MUST BE ALLOWED TO RETURN TO THEIR HOMES AS SOON AS CONDITIONS ALLOW.

AND WHILE ISRAEL SAYS IT IS MOVING TO A NEW, LESS INTENSE PHASE OF THE WAR, HEAVY BOMBARDMENT OF THE ENCLAVE IS SO FAR RELENTLESS.

THE IDF SAYS IT AIMS FOR PROPORTIONALTY IN ITS MILITARY OPERATIONS.

OUR NEXT GUEST PAINTS A DIFFERENT PICTURE.

YUVAL ABRAHAM IS AN INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER IN ISRAEL, AND HE JOINS ME FROM TEL AVIV TO DISCUSS HIS REPORTING.

YUVAL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US NOW.

YOUR INVESTIGATION DISCUSSES THE IDF'S EXPANDED AUTHORIZATION FOR BOMBING NONMILITARY TARGETS AND THE, QUOTE, LOOSENING OF CONSTRAINTS IN CIVILIAN CASUALTIES.

TALK TO US ABOUT WHAT YOU FOUND IN YOUR REPORTING, AND HOW THAT LIES IN CONTRAST WITH HOW THE IDF SAYS IT IS CONDUCTING THIS WAR, IN YOUR VIEW.

>> YEAH, SO, I FOUND THREE MAIN THINGS.

THE FIRST IS THAT THE MILITARY COMPLETELY ABANDONED PREVIOUS PROTOCOLS THAT WERE IN PLACE, AIMED AT REGULATING THE KILLING OF PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS.

SO, FOR THIS OPERATION, FOR EXAMPLE, IN ASSASSINATION STRIKES AIMED AT SENIOR HAMAS COMMANDERS, SOURCES IN INTELLIGENCE HAVE TOLD ME THAT THE MILITARY IS KNOWINGLY KILLING HUNDREDS, SEVERAL HUNDRED PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS PER AS IS NATION ATTEMPT.

THE SECOND THING IS THAT THE MILITARY IS HEAVILY RELYING ON ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE TO GENERATE TARGETS FOR SUCH ASSASSINATIONS, WITH VERY LITTLE HUMAN SUPERVISION, ACCORDING TO SOURCES.

AND FINALLY, THE LAST THING IS THAT THERE IS THIS CONCEPT IN THE MILITARY CALLED POWER TARGETS, WHICH ARE TARGETS THAT ARE HIT, NOT FOR THEIR MILITARY VALUE, BUT BECAUSE IT'S A WAY TO HURT MORALE IN GAZA AND TO CAUSE CIVILIANS TO PLACE PRESSURE ON HAMAS.

AND MY INVESTIGATION, BASED ON SEVEN INTELLIGENCE SOURCES AND I AM CONTINUING TO SPEAK TO THESE INTELLIGENCE SOURCES, ALSO IN THE PAST FEW WEEKS.

>> I WANT TO ASK MORE ABOUT, WITHOUT REVEALING YOUR SOURCES, JUST THE TYPE OF SOURCES YOU HAVE, AND THE ACCESS, AND WHY THEY WOULD HAVE THE ACCESS THAT THEY DO.

WE SHOULD NOTE THAT CNN CANNOT CONFIRM YOUR INVESTIGATION AND ITS FINDINGS.

THE IDF, WE SHOULD NOTE, SAYS, IN A STATEMENT, THAT THE -- THEY ARE COMMITTED TO INTERNATIONAL LAW AND ACTS ACCORDING TO IT, AND IN DOING SO, ATTACKS MILITARY TARGETS AND DOES NOT ATTACK CIVILIANS, ALSO SEEKS TO MINIMIZE CIVILIAN CASUALTIES.

YOU SAID SOMETHING EARLIER THAT STUCK WITH ME, I'M NOT A MILITARY EXPERT, OUR VIEWERS AREN'T EITHER, BUT WE'VE BEEN WATCHING THIS WAR ALMOST 24/7 FOR THE PAST THREE MONTHS UNFOLD ON TELEVISION.

HOW IS HOW ISRAEL IS CONDUCTING THIS WAR, OBVIOUSLY A MUCH LARGER SCALE FOLLOWING A TERRIBLE, HORRIFIC TERROR ATTACK OF OCTOBER 7th, BUT IT'S IN AN ENCLAVE AGAINST A TERROR GROUP IT'S VERY FAMILIAR WITH.

HOW ARE THEY CONDUCTING THIS WAR WITH HAMAS DIFFERENTLY THAN THEY HAVE IN PAST WARS?

>> YEAH, SO, I MEAN, I JUST HAVE TO SAY, YOU KNOW, IN RESPONSE TO THE MILITARY SAYING THAT IT IS DOING EVERYTHING IN ITS POWER TO MINIMIZE CIVILIAN CASUALTIES, THAT'S JUST NOT TRUE.

AND I'M SAYING THAT IT'S NOT TRUE, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE JUST THIS WEEK, I'VE SPOKEN WITH ROUGHLY THREE ISRAELI INTELLIGENCE OFFICERS WHO WERE ACTUALLY PLANNING THESE TARGETS FOR THE PAST FEW MONTHS, AND THEY TELL ME THAT THE GENERAL ATMOSPHERE IS AN ATMOSPHERE WHERE PALESTINIAN LIFE HAS VERY, VERY LITTLE MEANING.

AND TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION, I MEAN, THE PREVIOUS PROTOCOLS THAT WERE IN PLACE, FOR EXAMPLE, IN PREVIOUS WARS, IN AN ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT AGAINST A SENIOR HAMAS COMMANDER, THEY WOULD NOT ALLOW MORE THAN FIVE CIVILIANS TO BE KILLED.

SOMETIMES SEVERAL DOZEN.

NOW, IN THIS OPERATION, IT'S SEVERAL HUNDRED PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS BEING KILLED.

AND AS A BLANKET SORT OF RULE FOR ANY ASSASSINATION STRIKE, UP TO, BETWEEN 15 TO 20 PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS.

NOW, THE USE OF ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE IS SO MASSIVE IN THIS OPERATION THAT BY THE SECOND WEEK, MOST OF THE TARGET CREATION PROCESS ACCORDING TO SOURCES, ALREADY BECAME AUTOMATED, AND SOURCES THAT WERE THERE AND THEY WERE OPERATING THESE A.I.-GENERATED TARGET MACHINES SAID THAT MOST OF THE TARGETS CREATED WERE JUNIOR HAMAS OPERATIVES THAT WERE BEING BOMBED, AGAIN, WHEN THEY ARE IN THEIR HOMES, KILLING NOT ONLY PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS, ENTIRE FAMILIES AROUND THEM.

THIS WAS NOT IN PLACE IN PREVIOUS WARS.

YEAH.

>> I'M GLAD YOU BROUGHT UP ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE AND ITS ROLE IN THIS WAR.

YOU SPECIFICALLY WRITE ABOUT A TOOL CALLED THE GOSPEL.

TELL US MORE ABOUT HOW IT'S BEING USED.

>> SURE, SO, THE GOSPEL IS JUST ONE SYSTEM OUT OF SEVERAL SYSTEMS THAT ESSENTIALLY COMPOSED THESE TARGET CREATING MACHINES.

AND WHAT THEY DO, THEY SURVEIL, THEY COLLECT INFORMATION FROM THE ENTIRE POPULATION OF GAZA, SO, 2.3 MILLION PEOPLE.

AND THEY CALCULATE THE PROBABILITY THAT A CERTAIN INDIVIDUAL IS ASSOCIATED WITH HAMAS, AND THE PROBABILITY THAT THE CERTAIN INDIVIDUAL IS ASSOCIATED WITH A PARTICULAR PHONE NUMBER, FOR EXAMPLE.

AND THEY DO SO ON A MASSIVE SCALE, GENERATING HUNDREDS OF TARGETS EVERY DAY.

NOW, SOURCES HAVE TOLD ME THAT THE MILITARY KNOWS THAT THIS -- THESE SYSTEMS ARE NOT ALWAYS ACCURATE, AND THE POLICY IS NOT A ZERO-MISTAKE POLICY.

THE MILITARY HAS COMMENTED TO MY PIECE AND SAID THAT A HUMAN IS ALWAYS IN THE LOOP WITH ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE, AND I'LL JUST GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE.

I RECENTLY MET A SOURCE THAT OPERATED THESE MACHINES, AND HE SAID HE BOMBED DOZENS OF HOMES EVERY DAY.

AND I ASKED HIM, HOW MANY OF THESE HOMES WERE CREATED BY ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE AS TARGETS FOR ASSASSINATION, AND HE SAID ALL OF THEM.

I JUST HAVE TO GREEN LIGHT IT.

AND I ASKED HIM, WELL, HOW MUCH TIME DID YOU SPEND PER TARGET LOOKING, SUPERVISING WHAT THE MACHINE CREATED?

AND THE SOURCE SAID THAT THERE WERE WEEKS THAT THERE WAS SO MUCH PRESSURE TO CREATE AS MANY TARGETS AS POSSIBLE THAT HE SPENT 20 SECONDS PER TARGET.

AND THE SUPERVISION WAS TO CHECK IF THE A.I.

GENERATED THE TARGET FOR ASSASSINATION IS A MALE OR A FEMALE.

IF IT'S A FEMALE, THEY KNOW IT'S FOR SURE A MISTAKE THE A.I.

MADE, BECAUSE WOMEN ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE GENERATED AS TARGETS.

IF IT'S A MALE, THEY WOULD AUTHORIZE IT.

BECAUSE IT'S -- ACCORDING TO THAT SOURCE, BECAUSE IT'S NOT 100%, BUT PROBABLE THAT THIS IS A HAMAS PERSON.

AND IN EACH ONE OF THESE STRIKES BEING AUTHORIZED, WE HAVE CIVILIANS BEING KILLED, AS WELL.

>> YUVAL, YOU MENTIONED EARLIER, AND AGAIN, I DON'T WANT TO JEOPARDIZE YOUR SOURCES, BUT I SAW IN A CENT INTERVIEW YOU'D GIVEN THAT THESE ARE SOURCES THAT ARE EITHER CONNECTED TO THE MILITARY OR CONNECTED TO THESE OPERATIONS, AND THAT WANT TO ENSURE THE SECURITY AND SAFETY OF ISRAEL.

THAT HAVING BEEN SAID, WHY ARE THEY CHOOSING TO SPEAK WITH YOU ABOUT THIS RIGHT NOW?

>> YEAH, IT'S A GREAT QUESTION, AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, TALKING TO THESE SOURCES, LIKE, ALL OF THEM AFTER OCTOBER 7th HAPPENED, THE SHOCK, YOU KNOW, THE ATROCITIES, THEY IMMEDIATELY, SOME OF THEM VOLUNTEERED TO GO TO THE ARMY, SOME OF THEM ARE IN RESERVES.

AND GRADUALLY, THEY WERE -- THEY WERE SHOCKED, HONESTLY, BY WHAT THEY WERE ASKED TO DO, BY HOW MANY OF -- MANY OF THEM WERE SHOCKED BY HOW MUCH IT WAS DISPROPORTIONATE.

THERE IS SUCH A BIG DISPARITY.

EVERY TIME I FINISH A CONVERSATION WITH AN INTELLIGENCE SOURCE, I CANNOT BELIEVE THE DISPARITY BETWEEN THE WAY THIS WAR IS BEING PORTRAYED IN THE MEDIA AND THE WAY IT ACTUALLY IS ON THE GROUND.

AND I THINK A LOT OF SOURCES FELT A RESPONSIBILITY TO CHANGE THAT, TO SPEAK ABOUT IT.

>> WE'LL BE COVERING IT IN GREATER DETAIL TOMORROW, OBVIOUSLY, THE ICJ PROCEEDINGS BROUGHT UP BY SOUTH AFRICA, ALLEGING THAT ISRAEL'S COMMITTED GENOCIDE, THAT'S RECEIVED A LOT OF NEGATIVE ATTENTION IN ISRAEL.

AS SAYING THERE'S NO MERITS TO IT.

WE SHOULD NOTE THE UNITED STATES ALSO ALSO SAYING THERE'S NO MERITS AND THAT IT'S BASELESS.

ISRAEL HAS SENT ITS FORMER CHIEF JUSTICE AS A NOMINATED JUDGE, TO DEFEND IN COURT PROCEEDINGS.

BUT THERE ARE THOSE THAT SAY, LISTEN, INVESTIGATIONS LIKE YOURS, COMMENTS MADE BY SOME EXTREMIST MEMBERS OF THE GOVERNMENT, AREN'T DOING ISRAEL ANY FAVORS GOING INTO THESE PROCEEDINGS.

HAMAS IS EXPLICIT IN ITS DESIRE TO KILL ISRAELIS AND JEWS, BUT WHAT ARE ISRAELIS SAYING?

AND WHAT ARE SOME OF THE SOURCES YOU'RE TALKING TO SAYING ABOUT WHAT WE'RE EXPECTED TO SEE TOMORROW?

>> SO, YOU KNOW, MY SOURCES DIDN'T MENTION TOMORROW, AND HONESTLY, I DON'T KNOW, LIKE, I THINK THE WORD GENOCIDE -- >> AS A JOURNALIST.

WELL, LET ME JUST ASK YOU, AS A JOURNALIST, I'M CURIOUS, IF YOU DON'T MIND, JUST A PERSONAL QUESTION, HOW YOU'RE FEELING ABOUT THIS?

WHAT WE'RE SEEING TOMORROW, AND JUST IN GENERAL, AS AN ISRAELI WHO IS TRYING TO MEND FENCES WITH PALESTINIANS?

>> YEAH, SO, I FEEL THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE CLAIMING THAT THEY ARE HELPING ISRAEL, EVEN BY, YOU KNOW, SUPPORTING UNCONDITIONALLY THE WAR.

AND I THINK THE REAL WAY TO HELP US IS TO HELP US, HONESTLY, FIND A POLITICAL SOLUTION.

THAT WILL ENSURE FULL EQUALITY BETWEEN ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS.

I HAVE A LOT OF PALESTINIANS THAT I HAVE JOINT PROJECTS WITH, BOTH IN GAZA AND IN THE WEST BANK.

THERE IS A DOCUMENTARY THAT'S A COLLECTIVE OF ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS, I'M ONE OF THEM, WE DIRECTED IT, IT WILL BE RELEASED NEXT MONTH, AND I THINK THAT AS LONG AS WE ARE UNEQUAL, AS LONG AS WE DO NOT END THE MILITARY OCCUPATION AND FIND THE POLITICAL SOLUTION -- >> YEAH.

>> YOU'RE NOT HELPING NOT PALESTINIANS AND NOT ISRAELIS.

AND WE NEED REAL PRESSURE TO DO SO.

>> YUVAL ABRAHAM, PLEASE COME BACK AND TALK ABOUT THIS DOCUMENTARY, I'M REALLY INTERESTED IN WATCHING IT MYSELF.

WE APPRECIATE YOUR TIME TODAY.

THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELL, NOW, 2023 SAW A RECORD NUMBER OF MIGRANTS CROSS THE ATLANTIC TO THE SPANISH CANARY ISLANDS, WITH MANY LIVES LOST AT SEA.

EUROPEAN GOVERNMENTS ARE RESPONDING WITH HARSH CRACKDOWNS, BUT RARELY DO WE HEAR FROM THE PEOPLE MAKING THE JOURNEYS.

ITALIAN FILM DIRECTOR MATTEO JAR ROAN IS HOPING TO SHARE THE STORY WITH HIS NEW FILM, WHICH FOLLOWING TWO MIGRANTS TRAVELING FROM AFRICA TO ITALY.

IT'S LARGELY INSPIRED BY THE EXPERIENCE OF MAMADOU KOUASSI.

HE JOINS HARI WITH THE FILM'S DIRECTOR TO DISCUSS THAT JOURNEY.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH, BIANNA.

MATTEO, WHY DID YOU CHOOSE TO DIRECT THIS MOVIE ABOUT MIGRATION?

>> WELL, THE IDEA -- FIRST, THANKS FOR INVITING US.

AND THE IDEA START FROM THE DESIRE TO GIVE A FINAL VISUAL FORM TO A PART OF A JOURNEY THAT WE USUALLY DON'T SEE.

WE ARE USED IN ITALY, IN EUROPE, WE ARE USED TO SEEING ONLY THE LAST PART OF THE JOURNEY, WHEN THE POET BOAT ARRIVE IN SICILY, AND THERE'S THE COUNT OF PEOPLE ALIVE AND PEOPLE DEAD.

SO, AT TIMES, WE ARE USED TO THINK THAT THEY ARE JUST NUMBER.

IN THE LAST 15 YEARS, 27,000 PEOPLE HAVE DIED ON THIS JOURNEY.

AND SO, WE DECIDE TO TRY TO PUT THE CAMERA ON THE REVERSE SHOT, TO FINALLY TELL THE STORY OF THIS ODYSSEY FROM THE POINT OF VIEW OF THEM.

TRYING TO GIVE TO THE AUDIENCE THE POSSIBILITY TO LIVE THIS JOURNEY THROUGH THE EYES OF THE REAL PROTAGONISTS OF THE SURVIVAL.

>> MAMADOU, YOU ARE A MIGRANT YOURSELF, YOU ARE ALSO A CONSULTANT ON THIS FILM.

FILM, RIGHT AT THE BEGINNING, WHERE THE TWO COUSINS ARE DECIDING TO GO, MAKE A GO OF THIS JOURNEY, AND ONE OF THE YOUNG MEN IS KIND OF TELLING HIS MOTHER THAT HE'S GOING TO DO THIS.

>> WHY ARE MIGRANTS LIKE YOURSELF SO DESPERATE TO GET OUT?

IF YOU KNOW, AND IF YOU HAVE HEARD ABOUT THESE DANGERS, ESPECIALLY IN THE DESERT, AND WHAT HAPPENS TO PEOPLE IN LIBYA, WHY GET ON THAT FIRST BUS?

>> OF COURSE.

IF SOMEBODY IS PUSHED BY A DREAM, HE HAS TO FOLLOW THE DREAM TO FOLLOW HIS HEART, SO EVEN WE ARE -- WE KNOW THAT, BECAUSE WE TOOK INFORMATION FROM OTHER PEOPLE BEFORE TRAVELING.

WE DON'T CARE, WE WANT TO FOLLOW OUR DREAM TO HAVE BETTER LIFE.

THIS IS THEIR SITUATION.

SO BEING PUSHED TO GET BETTER LIFE, WE DECIDE TO CROSS THE DESERT AT ANY COST, SO, THIS IS THE REALITY, BECAUSE IN AFRICA, WE DON'T HAVE THIS OPPORTUNITY OR SO TO HAVE THIS KIND -- TO MAKE OUR DREAM COME TRUE, SO -- THIS IS THE REASON WHY WE DECIDE AS AFRICAN PEOPLE TO GET A BETTER LIFE IN EUROPE.

>> SO, MATTEO, GIVEN THAT THERE WERE ALL THESE DIFFERENT STORIES THAT YOU COULD HAVE PICKED UP, HOW DID YOU WRITE THE SHIPT?

HOW DID YOU FOCUS ON THE JOURNEY OF TWO COUSINS?

>> IT'S THE STRUCTURE, IT'S THE STRUCTURE.

IT'S A CONTEMPORARY JOURNEY.

SO, I LISTEN, I LISTEN MANY OF THEIR STORY, AND THEN I TRIED TO PUT TWO OR THREE STORY TOGETHER IN ONE UNIQUE STORY, AND WE -- WE RECREATE THIS WORLD.

WE RECREATE THESE FAIRY TALES.

WE RECREATE THIS ADVENTURE.

TRYING, AS I SAID BEFORE, TRYING TO TELL THE STORY, TRYING TO BE HONEST, TRYING TO BE SIMPLE.

TRYING TO BE ADVADVISABLE.

THAT WAS THE WORD ON THE SET, TO BE ADVISABLE, TO GIVE TO THE AUDIENCE THE POSSIBILITY TO LIVED EXPERIENCE, BECAUSE CINEMA IS NOT INFORMATION, IT'S EXPERIENCE, EMOTIONAL EXPERIENCE.

THE FIRST STORY I HAD MANY YEARS AGO WAS THE STORY, WHEN HE WAS 15, HE DROVE THIS BOAT WITHOUT KNOWING HOW TO DRIVE A BOAT AND HE MAKE THIS HEROIC ACT OF SAVE THE LIFE OF 250 PEOPLE AND REACHING, FINALLY, ITALY.

>> AND SO I TALK WITH HIM AND I DISCOVERED THAT AFTER THIS ACT, HE WENT IN JAIL FOR SIX MONTHS.

AND UNFORTUNATELY, WE LEAVE THIS CONTRADICTION, BECAUSE THEY -- THEY ARE, AS WE SAID BEFORE, THEY ARE CONTEMPORARY HERO, AND THEY ARE TREAT LIKE -- BECAUSE SOMETIMES, IT'S EASIER TO PUT IN JAIL PEOPLE THAT DON'T HAVE VOICE AND TREAT THEM AS A -- SO, THAT IS AN UNJUSTICE, AND WE -- WE HOPE -- WE HOPE THAT THE MOVIE WILL SHOW THIS -- THIS INJUSTICE TOWARDS THE WORLD AND AND THINGS WILL CHANGE.

>> MAMADOU, I DON'T THINK THAT MOST PEOPLE WATCHING THE FILM IN THE WEST ARE AWARE OF WHAT HAPPENS IN THE COUNTRIES IN BETWEEN.

ESPECIALLY IN LIBYA.

CAN YOU TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE HUMAN TRAFFICKING AND THE GANGS THAT ARE IN BETWEEN PEOPLE GETTING FROM THEIR ORIGIN COUNTRY TO THE COAST TO GET ON ONE OF THE BOATS?

>> IT'S DIFFICULT TO EXPLAIN, BECAUSE THOSE COUNTRIES ARE -- THEIR ECONOMY IS BASED ON PETROL.

AFTER THE PETROL, THEY TRADE BLACK PEOPLE.

SO, IT BECOMES THE CYCLE ECONOMY OF THOSE PEOPLE.

THAT PEOPLE HAVE BEEN TRADED IN THESE COUNTRIES, AND THEY HAVE SOME OTHER PLACES, PRISONS, THAT AFTER SOME TIME, THE GOVERNMENT DOESN'T KNOW THEY EXIST.

AND MOST OF THE TIME, IF THEY SEE THAT PEOPLE ARE IN NUMBER, THEY CAN TAKE SOME PEOPLE AND TAKE THEM BACK TO THE SAHARA, AND LEAVE THEM THERE.

AND THOSE PEOPLE SOMETIMES, THEY DIE.

>> MATTEO, WHAT WERE SOME OF THE CHALLENGES IN MAKING THIS FILM?

YOU USED MOSTLY NONPROFESSIONAL ACTORS, A LOT OF THE EXTRAS AND THE CHARACTERS THAT ARE IN THE FILM WERE MIGRANTS THEMSELVES.

YOU WERE SHOOTING THIS -- THIS WAS NOT AN ITALIAN FILM, SO, YOU'RE SHOOTING PARTS OF THIS, MOST OF THIS IN LANGUAGES THAT YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND, SO, HOW DID YOU -- HOW DID YOU KIND OF, THE BLOCKING AND TACKLING OF MAKING A FILM LIKE THIS?

>> YEAH, WELL, IT WAS -- YEAH, BIG CHALLENGE.

OF COURSE, I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THE LANGUAGE, BUT THAT WAS THE REASON WHY I DECIDE IMMEDIATELY THAT THE ONLY WAY TO MAKE THE MOVIE WAS TOGETHER.

SO, I'VE BEEN A SORT OF INTERMEDIATE YEAH OR THE.

I PUT MY EXPERIENCE, MY WAY OF LOOK, AT THE SERVICE OF THEM, THE SERVICE OF THEIR STORY.

SO, I WAS ALWAYS WITH THEM.

FROM THE SCRIPT, ALSO ON THE SET, WITH ALL THE EXTRA IN THE MOVIE WERE REAL -- REAL SURVIVOR, REAL MIGRANT THAT ALREADY MADE THAT YOUR KNEE.

SO, THEY COULD HELP ME TO RECREATE THE AUTHENTICITY OF THIS JOURNEY, THE DETAILS, AND, YES, WE MADE THIS MOVIE ALTOGETHER, SO -- I HAD THIS INCREDIBLE PRIVILEGE TO BE WITH THEM AND TO SEE THEM ON -- ON THE SET, IN FRONT OF THE MONITOR, HOW THEY REACT, HOW THEY RECREATE THESE -- THIS JOURNEY, AND WE WANTED TO BE AUTHENTIC FOR THE RESPECT OF THE PEOPLE THAT MADE THIS JOURNEY, FOR THE RESPECT OF THE PEOPLE THAT DIED ON THIS JOURNEY.

AND ALSO, THAT'S VERY IMPORTANT, FOR SHOW TO THE AFRICAN WHAT THE JOURNEY MEANS, BECAUSE WE -- THE MOVIE WILL BE RELEASED IN 20 COUNTRY IN AFRICA.

>> MATTEO, WHAT IS THE FEELING AT THE MOMENT IN ITALY TOWARDS MIGRANTS THAT ARE MAKING THIS JOURNEY, OR TO THE MIGRANTS WHO ARE ALREADY IN THE COUNTRY?

>> WELL, I THINK IN ITALY, LIKE ALSO IN GENERAL EUROPE, ALSO IN THE REST OF THE WORLD, THE TENDENCY IS ALWAYS MORE ON CLOSE THE BORDERS, ON -- MAKE WAR, AND THE MOVIE TRY TO SHOW THAT THERE IS A LOT OF PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY YOUNG, OFTEN, THAT THEY DON'T STOP IN FRONT OF WAR, BECAUSE THEY THINK THAT THE RIGHT TO MOVE TO DISCOVER THE WORLD, TO LOOK FOR A BETTER LIFE FOR THEIR FAMILY, IS SOMETHING THAT SHOULD -- SHOULD BE FOR EVERYBODY, FOR EVERY HUMAN BEING.

SO, THEY SEE PEOPLE FROM OUR COUNTRY GOING HOLIDAY IN THEIR COUNTRY, AND IF THEY WANT TO MOVE AND COME IN OUR COUNTRY, THEY HAVE TO RISK THEIR LIFE.

>> MATTEO, RIGHT NOW, THE POLITICS OF ITALY HAVE SWUNG TO THE RIGHT.

YOU HAVE A PRIME MINISTER WHO HAS SAID, QUOTE, I WILL NOT ALLOW ITALY TO BECOME A REFUGEE CAMP FOR EUROPE.

AND WHAT SEEMS TO RESONATE WITH THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE ELECTED HER ARE SOMETIMES THE SECURITY CONCERNS THAT SHE SAYS, THAT ITALY SHOULD BEWARE OF SOME OF THE PEOPLE THAT ARE COMING ACROSS.

AND SHE HAS ALWAYS SAID THAT THERE IS AN ECONOMIC CONCERN, THAT THE PEOPLE OF THE MIDDLE EAST AND NORTH AFRICA WILL REPLACE THE WORKING PEOPLE OF ITALY.

ARE THESE FEARS JUSTIFIED?

>> WELL, I THINK WE -- THIS PROBLEM IS GLOBAL.

I THINK ALSO IN THE STATES YOU HAVE A SIMILAR PROBLEM WITH THE MEXICAN PEOPLE, AND -- AND I THINK IT'S UNIVERSAL.

MY POINT OF VIEW IS THAT WE SHOULD ALWAYS MORE TRY TO OPEN, FROM MY POINT OF VIEW, OPEN THE VISA TO GIVE THE POSSIBILITY TO THE PEOPLE TO -- TO MOVE WITHOUT RISK THEIR LIVES, YOU KNOW, TO MOVE BECAUSE WE ARE A COUNTRY, ESPECIALLY EUROPE, VERY OLD, AND 70% OF THE PEOPLE IN AFRICA ARE YOUNG.

SO, WE CAN CREATE SOMETHING TOGETHER.

WE CAN HELP EACH OTHER.

AND I THINK MAKING THIS MOVIE, IT'S AN EXAMPLE OF HOW WE CAN WORK TOGETHER AND DO SOMETHING BEAUTIFUL.

>> MAMADOU, YOU'RE WORKING NOW AS A CULTURE ALLEY YEAH SON WITH MIGRANTS WHO ARE ENTERING THE COUNTRY, AND I WONDER, WHAT ARE THEY TELLING YOU?

AND WHAT HAVE YOU EXPERIENCED SINCE YOU HAVE BEEN THERE ABOUT THIS SHIFT POLITICALLY TO THE RIGHT?

DO YOU FEEL LIKE PEOPLE ARE LESS WELCOMING OF MIGRANTS?

OR MORE SUSPICIOUS?

>> WHEN I ARRIVE IN EUROPE, WHAT I WAS EXPECTING IS NOT WHAT DID I SAY.

I SUFFER A LOT.

I SLEPT OUTSIDE.

AND THOSE PEOPLE THAT I COME IN TODAY, MOST OF THEM ARE FACING THE SAME SITUATION.

SO, SOMETIMES THOSE PEOPLE WHO COME TO EUROPE, THEY DO NOT GET THE CHANCE TO INTEGRATE THEMSELVES AND MOST OF THE PEOPLE STAY OUTSIDE.

EVEN HERE IN UNITED STATES, WE SAW SOME PEOPLE THAT ARE STAYING OUTSIDE.

SO, THIS IS A GLOBAL SITUATION THAT EVERYTHING -- THE POLICY HAS -- THERE SHOULD BE A NEW POLICY REQUIRING OUT OF THE MIGRATION, AND THIS FILM WILL HAVE BROUGHT A WAY FOR THE POLITICIAN TO THINK FOR ALL THE HUMAN BEINGS TO THINK THAT THIS IS THE TIME TO HAVE A NEW POLICY REGARDING MIGRATIONS.

TO ALLOW PEOPLE TO BE ABLE TO TRAVEL EASILY, ALL OVER THE WORLD.

WE ARE NOT SAYING THAT THEY SHOULD OPEN ALL THE BORDERS, BUT GIVING A CHANCE FOR PEOPLE TO TRAVEL, YOU CAN CONTROL THE MIGRATIONS.

GIVING CHANCE FOR PEOPLE TO TRAVEL, THIS IS A HUMAN RIGHT.

>> MATTEO, YOU ALSO HAD A PRIVATE SCREENING WITH THE POPE.

HE HAS BEEN OUTSPOKEN ABOUT MIGRATION ISSUES, ONE OF HIS FIRST TRIPS AS POPE WAS IN ITALY WHERE SO MANY MIGRANTS LAND.

WHAT WAS THAT MEETING LIKE?

>> FOR US, IT WAS INCREDIBLE MOMENT -- >> YEAH.

>> BUT IT DOESN'T SURPRISE ME, THE FACT THAT THE POPE WANTED TO SUPPORT THIS MOVIE, BECAUSE HE ALWAYS HAS BEEN FROM THE SIDE OF THIS CONTEMPORARY HERO, FROM THE SIDE OF THE MIGRANTS.

SO, HE ALWAYS TRY TO GIVE VOICE TO THEM, TO SHOW TO THE WORLD THE INJUSTICE, AND TRYING TO HOPE THAT THE WORLD COULD PUT DOWN THE WAR INSTEAD OF PUT UP.

AND SO, THE MOVIE'S ABOUT A REFLECTION ABOUT INCLUSIVITY, AND NOT SEPARATION.

AND THE POPE WANTED TO SUPPORT US FOR THIS REASON, BECAUSE HE FELT THAT WE TOLD THE STORY FROM THE POINT OF VIEW OF THEM, FROM THE POINT OF VIEW OF THIS CONTEMPORARY HERO.

>> MAMADOU, THIS MAY SEEM LIKE A STRANGE QUESTION, BUT WHAT DO YOU THINK WAS HARDER, GETTING TO EUROPE OR LIFE SINCE YOU'VE BEEN THERE?

>> I THINK BEING IN EUROPE, THE JOURNEY WAS SO MUCH HARDER, BECAUSE ME, FOR EXAMPLE, I SPENT THREE YEARS AND THOSE THREE YEARS, I SAW MANY PEOPLE DYING.

DESERT, MEDITERRANEAN SEA, PRISON, SOING WITH SO BEING -- DOING THIS JOURNEY WAS VERY CRUEL FOR ME, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, I'M NEVER GOING TO TELL YOU THAT BEING IN EUROPE IS EASY.

BECAUSE THERE ARE SOME DIFFICULTIES THAT PEOPLE FACE IN EUROPE.

IT IS IMPORTANT THAT THERE SHOULD BE A POLICY TO INTEGRATE PEOPLE THAT ARE LIVING IN EUROPE.

THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE LIVING HERE FOR YEARS, 10 YEARS, 15 YEARS, THEY ARE UNDOCUMENTED PEOPLE, THEY DON'T HAVE ANY HOUSE TO STAY, SO, THIS IS ANOTHER THING THAT PEOPLE ARE FACING.

>> MAMADOU, MATTEO, THANK YOU BOTH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> AND FINALLY, CELEBRATING LEGENDS AT THE 14th GOVERNOR'S AWARDS.

LAST NIGHT'S PRIVATE DINNER EVENT SAW SOME OF HOLLYWOOD'S GREATEST STARS RECEIVE HONORARY OSCARS, INCLUDING 97-YEAR-OLD MEL BROOKS, AND ANGELA BASSETT, THE SECOND BLACK ACTRESS TO EVER RECEIVE THE AWARD, WHO USED HER ACCEPTANCE SPEECH TO HIGHLIGHT THE IMPORTANT WORK BLACK ACTRESSES ARE DOING IN THE FILM INDUSTRY.

>> TO MY FELLOW BLACK ACTRESSES -- FILL YOUR HEARTS WITH COURAGE AND STRENGTH, BECAUSE REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU MAY THINK OR SEE OR FEEL, YOUR CONTRIBUTIONS DO MATTER.

TAKE COMFORT KNOWING THAT YOUR PERFORMANCES HAVE GIVEN HOPE, OFFERED A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE, AND FOR OTHERS, JUST PURE JOY IN A TIME OF NEED.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.

GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.