>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON," BIG NEWS CHANGES WERE ANNOUNCED TODAY TO THE FEDERAL VACCINE ROLLOUT, AIMED AT MAKING IT EASIER FOR MANY PEOPLE TO GET COVID PROTECTION FASTER.

BUT IS IT ENOUGH?

BIDEN COVID ADVISOR DR. ATUL GAWANDE JOINS ME WITH WHAT HE BELIEVES IS AN EVEN BETTER PLAN.

THEN, LATER, BUSINESSES AND ORGANIZATIONS HAVE BEEN CUTTING TIES WITH TOP TRUMP ALLIES IN CONGRESS FASTER THAN WE CAN LIST THEM.

WILL THESE BE THE MOVES THAT MAKE THE DIFFERENCE?

>>> WE'RE RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE POST-HOLIDAY CORONAVIRUS SURGE WE WERE WARNED ABOUT, ACCORDING TO PUBLIC HEALTH EXPERTS.

AND AS BAD AS IT IS, IT'S ONLY GOING TO GET EVEN WORSE, WITH PEOPLE MAKING RECKLESS DECISIONS, LIKE THESE SUPER-SPREADER-SIZED CROWDS THAT TURNED OUT IN TUSCALOOSA LAST NIGHT, AFTER ALABAMA WON THE NATIONAL FOOTBALL CHAMPIONSHIP.

THEN THERE ARE THE THREE DEMOCRATS WHO HAVE TESTED POSITIVE FOR COVID AFTER BEING LOCKED IN A SECURE ROOM IN THE CAPITOL ALONGSIDE REPUBLICANS WHO REFUSED TO WEAR MASKS LAST WEEK.

NO LESSONS LEARNED THERE, EITHER.

AGAIN, MORE THAN THAN 3,000 PEOPLE IN THE U.S. HAVE DIED OF COVID EACH DAY, ON AVERAGE, OVER THE PAST WEEK, AND MORE THAN 200,000 A DAY HAVE TESTED POSITIVE, ALL THE WHILE VACCINE DISTRIBUTION EFFORTS CONTINUE TO LAG BEHIND EXPECTATIONS.

THAT'S WHY HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES SECRETARY ALEX AZAR SAYS HE ANNOUNCED A SET OF SWEEPING CHANGES TO THE ROLLOUT TODAY, INCLUDING A PLAN PROPOSED BY THE INCOMING BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

>> WE ARE RELEASING THE ENTIRE SUPPLY WE HAVE FOR ORDER BY THE STATES, RATHER THAN HOLDING SECOND DOSES IN PHYSICAL RESERVE.

>> Braude: THE ADMINISTRATION IS ALSO NOW RECOMMENDING -- THEY CAN'T REQUIRE -- THAT STATES OFFER VACCINES TO EVERYONE OVER THE AGE OF 65, AND THOSE WITH UNDERLYING CONDITIONS.

AND THEY'RE PUSHING FOR VACCINES TO BE AVAILABLE IN MORE LOCATIONS, SUCH AS PHARMACIES, COMMUNITY HEALTH CENTERS, AND MASS VACCINATION SITES.

HERE IN MASSACHUSETTS, GOVERNOR CHARLIE BAKER ANNOUNCED TODAY THAT GILLETTE STADIUM WILL SERVE AS A MASS VACCINATION SITE FOR FIRST RESPONDERS STARTING NEXT WEEK, AND THEN WILL LATER OFFER VACCINES TO OTHER GROUPS, FOR AS MANY AS 5,000 PEOPLE A DAY.

AND NOT A MOMENT TOO SOON, NOW THAT THE STATE HAS BEEN MOVED TO SEVERE OUTBREAK STATUS BY THE NATIONAL PANDEMIC TRACKER "COVID ACT NOW."

BUT AS WELCOME AS THE CHANGES ARE TO MANY, SOME ARGUE THE VACCINE DISTRIBUTION PROCESS SHOULD BE FAR SIMPLER.

AMONG THEM IS DR. ATUL GAWANDE, ONE OF THE PRESIDENT-ELECT BIDEN'S COVID-19 ADVISORS.

HE'S ALSO A SURGEON AT BRIGHAM AND WOMEN'S HOSPITAL, A PROFESSOR OF MEDICINE AND PUBLIC HEALTH AT HARVARD, AND THE FOUNDER OF ARIADNE LABS, WHICH WORKS TO DEVELOP INNOVATIONS IN HEALTH SYSTEMS.

>> Braude: DOCTOR, IT IS GOOD TO SEE YOU.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING ME.

>> Doctor: I'M GLAD TO BE HERE.

>> Braude: YOU WROTE A PIECE ABOUT SELF-ATTESTATION, OR A VACCINE HONOR CORRODE.

CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHAT YOU'RE PROPOSING?

>> Doctor: YES.

THE CORE NOTION IS YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE BIG ELIGIBILITY REQUIREMENTS.

YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE TO PROVE YOUR AGE, SHOW ME YOUR BIRTH CERTIFCATE, PROVE WHERE YOU WORK, NORTEL TO GET THE VACCINE.

WE WANT TO MAKE IT AS SIMPLE AS POSSIBLE FOR THE OFFICIALS TO ADMINISTER SO THEY DON'T HAVE TO CREATE ELABORATE PROCESSES.

THERE ARE SOME STATES THAT IMPOSE PENALTIES IF YOU GET THE WRONG PERSON WHO IS AHEAD OF OTHERS.

IF WE'RE REALLY CLEAR ABOUT WHO WE'RE PRIORITIZING, YES, THERE WILL BE THE OCCASIONAL PEOPLE WHO JUMP THE LINE, BUT I BELIEVE WE CAN HOLD PEOPLE TO SAYING, LOOK, WE NEED TO FOLLOW THE HONOR SYSTEM.

WE NEED TO MAKE THIS SIMPLER.

AND WE NEED AS MANY OF YOU WAITING YOUR TURN.

WE NEED THE PEOPLE MOST AT RISK TO GET THE VACCINES FIRST.

>> Braude: BUT IN THIS HORRIBLY IMMORAL AND UNETHICAL TIME, WHY DO YOU PRESUME THAT MOST PEOPLE, THE VAST MAJORITY, WILL ACT ETHICALLY AND MORALLY, DOCTOR?

>> Doctor: I DON'T THINK TIMES HAVE CHANGED SO MUCH THAT PEOPLE WON'T DO THAT.

AND IN THE PAST, WHEN WE'VE HAD LARGE VACCINATION COMPAIGNS AND THEY'VE NEEDED TO HAVE PEOPLE ATTEST TO WHETHER IT IS THE SIDE EFFECTS THEY MAY FACE OR THE MEDICAL HISTORY THEY HAVE, PEOPLE HAVE BEEN ABLE TO DO THAT.

AND, YOU KNOW, THEY STUCK BY IT.

I THINK THE OTHER PART, THOUGH, IS WHAT IT WOULD TAKE TO IMPLEMENT THE SYSTEMS AND THE PENALTIES AND EVERYTHING ELSE TO GUIDE THAT PROCESS IS OVERWHELMING IN A MEMO WHERE THEMOMENTWHERE THE MOST CRITICAL THICKTHING IS TO GET SHOTS IN ARMS.

IF WE'RE ENDING UP LEAVING SHOTS ON THE SHELVES BECAUSE THE SYSTEMS AREN'T THERE, THAT'S CRAZY.

IT IS A CLEAR PRIORITY: GET THE SHOTS OUT THERE.

>> Braude: CAN I GIVE VOICE TO MY CYNICISM ONE MORE TIME, AND THEN WE CAN MOVE ON.

I DON'T KNOW IF YOU SAW THIS NEONATAL I.C.U.

NURSE, JENNIFER, WHO WAS ON CNN A COUPLE OF DAYS AGO.

SHE WAS TALKING ABOUT LINE-JUMPING AT MASS GENERAL BRIGHAM.

HERE IS WHAT THIS NURSE HAD TO SAY ON CNN.

>> WHENEVER IT ROLLED OUT, IT DIDN'T QUITE GO AS PLANNED.

IT WAS DEFINITELY A SLAP IN THE FACE.

REALLY, IT WAS A FREE A FREE-FOR-ALL, AND ANYONE COULD SIGN UP.

IT WAS PUT OUT ON A WEDNESDAY AT 3:00, AND YOU HAD TO LOG ON AT THAT EXACT MOMENT.

IF YOU WEREN'T ON AT THAT EXACT MOMENT, YOU WEREN'T GETTING THE VACCINE.

>> Braude: AND DR. PAUL VITENVITENGER, WHO RAN THE TASK ADVISORY BOARD, HE ACKNOWLEDGED THAT THE HONOR SYSTEM THEY PUT IN PLACE THERE CREATED WHAT HE CALLED A SENSE OF COMPETITION.

YOU DON'T SEEM TO BE WORRIED ABOUT THAT.

>> Doctor: WELL, WHAT I'M WORRIED ABOUT IS, LOOK, WHEN WE HAVE SYSTEMS THAT PEOPLE HAVE HAD NO CHANCE TO HAVE PLANNING -- I MEAN, MOST PLACES GOT NOTIFIED ABOUT NEEDING TO BE RESPONSIBLE TO HAVE PLANNING AND HAVE THIS SET UP JUST A WEEK OR SO BEFORE CHRISTMAS.

THEY BARELY HAD ANY TIME TO GET IT GOING.

SO YOU SEE THINGS, LIKE IN ORANGE COUNTY, FLORIDA, WHERE THEY SAY FIRST COME, FIRST SERVE.

THAT LEADS TO A FREE-FOR-ALL, THAT LEADS TO PEOPLE FEELING ILL-TREATED.

I UNDERSTAND WHERE THOSE WHO ARE SETTING UP SYSTEMS ARE JUST TRYING TO GET THEM OFF THE GROUND AND WORKING.

ALREADY THIS WEEK WE SAW THE SYSTEM GO FROM 60,000 PEOPLE BEING IMMUNIZED A DAY TO 600,000 PEOPLE GETTING IMMUNIZED AS OF YESTERDAY IN A SINGLE DAY.

I SEE THIS AS A SYSTEM ON THE LEARNING CURVE, AND I WORRY ABOUT MAKING IT MORE COMPLICATED FOR THE SAKE OF THESE KINDS OF SITUATIONS, RATHER THAN A SIMPLER SYSTEM, MORE PREDICTABLE, AND THEN PEOPLE WILL UNDERSTAND, HERE IS WHAT I DO; WE NEED TO SET UP SCHEDULES.

WE NEED TO GET PEOPLE IN THE SCHEDULES AND GET IT GOING.

I'M INVOLVED VERY CLOSELY IN THE GILLETTE STANDUP, FOR EXAMPLE.

THE PARTNERSHIP I PUT TOGETHER TO PROVIDE LOGISTICS AND OPERATION.

A LOT OF IT IS ABOUT MAKING IT CLEAR AND PREDICTABLE.

HERE IS HOW YOU COME.

HERE IS HOW YOU GET SCHEDULED.

HERE IS WHERE YOU GO.

AND MAKE IT STRAIGHTFORWARD.

THAT IS GOING TO BE JOB ONE, OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

>> Braude: I MENTIONED WHAT SECRETARY AZAR PROPOSED THIS MORNING, INCLUDING ADOPTING WHAT PRESIDENT-ELECT BIDEN HAS TALKED ABOUT, WHICH IS RELEASING EVERY DOSE, HOLDING NOTHING BACK FOR THE SECOND DOSE, BELIEVING THAT THE MANUFACTURING WILL GEAR UP ENOUGH FOR THE SECOND DOSE, AND IT WILL BE AVAILABLE IN TIMELY FASHION.

BUT ARE THESE ANSWERS TO THE PROBLEM AS TO WHY WE HAVE THREE TIMES AS MANY DOSES DISTRIBUTED AS HAVE BEEN SHOT INTO PEOPLE'S ARMS?

IS THE PROBLEM THAT WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH WILLING RECIPIENTS?

OR IS IT SOMETHING ELSE, DOCTOR?

>> Doctor: CLEARLY IT IS NOT WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH WILLING RECIPIENTS.

PEOPLE ARE CLAMORING TO HAVE THE SHOTS.

WE HAVE A COUPLE OF THINGS: NUMBER ONE, A CHRONIC SITUATION OF OVERPROMISING AND UNDERDELIVERING.

WE'VE HAD ALL BREAKTHROUGH AND NO FOLLOW THROUGH.

SO NOW WHERE THERE SHOULD HAVE BEEN FOUR, FIVE MONTHS OF PLANNING WITH THE STATES, WITH THE PHARMACIES, WITH COUNTY OFFICIALS, TO HELP THEM PREPARE, THEY DID NOT GET RESOURCES.

THEY DIDN'T HAVE AN UNDERSTANDING OF HOW MUCH STAFFING THERE WOULD BE.

EVEN NOW, AS PLACES OPEN UP CAPACITY, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN'T PREDICT -- THERE IS NO INFORMATION ABOUT HOW MANY DOSES ARE GOING TO BE AVAILABLE IN THREE DAYS, IN FIVE DAYS.

YOU WANT TO SCHEDULE THE SECOND DOSE IN THREE WEEKS.

CAN YOU OPEN UP AND COUNT ON THOSE DOSES BEING THERE?

PART OF GOING TO A NEW ADMINISTRATION IS JUST PROVIDING MUCH MORE TRANSPARENCY, A LOT MORE STRATEGY AND PLANNING.

IT WILL TAKE TIME FOR THE NEXT ADMINISTRATION TO GEAR UP FOR THAT.

BUT THESE ARE THINGS WE KNOW HOW TO DO.

MAKE IT HAPPEN IN A HANDFUL OF DAYS, AND WE'RE GOING TO HAVE THE CHAOS, AND IT WILL IMPROVE, BUT IT WILL TAKE TIME.

>> Braude: YOU MENTIONED WE'RE NOW 600,000 DOSES ADMINISTERED A DAY, AND EVERYBODY WATCHING HAS HEARD PRESIDENT-ELECT BIDEN TALK ABOUT 100 MILLION SHOTS IN 100 DAYS, BUT DOING THE MATH, 100 MILLION SHOTS IS 50 MILLION PEOPLE WITH THE REQUIRED TWO DOSES.

IF HERD IMMUNITY, ACCORDING TO THE FAUCIS OF THE WORLD, AND I'M ASSUMING YOU, TOO, IT SUGGESTS THAT 100 MILLION IN A 100 DAY-RATE, WE COULD TAKE A YEAR AND A QUARTER OR A YEAR NAF TO GET --AND A HALF TO GET TO THAT POINT.

AM I RIGHT OR AM I WRONG?

OR DO YOU THINK PRESIDENT BIDEN WILL BE ABLE TO GEAR IT UP EVEN MORE?

>> Doctor: I THINK WE CAN GET PAST A MILLION VACCINATIONS A DAY IN DUE COURSE.

THAT WE CAN GET THERE IN THE NEXT FEW WEEKS, ESPECIALLY AFTER THE NEW ADMINISTRATION.

IT WILL HAVE TO CLEARLY GO NORTH FROM THERE.

A MILLION WILL NEED TO BECOME TWO MILLION AND THAT WILL NEED TO BECOME THREE MILLION.

IF THE MANUFACTURERS CAN KEEP UP WITH MANUFACTURING AND PROVIDING THE DISTRIBUTION, I THINK IT WILL BE FEASIBLE TO GET THE SHOTS IN ARMS TO SEE THE COUNTRY VACCINATED WELL BEFORE THE END OF THE YEAR.

YOU KNOW, THERE HAD BEEN A LOT OF TALK THAT THINGS WOULD ENABLE THE GENERAL PUBLIC TO BE VACCINATED BY THE END OF THE SPRING.

AND I THINK WE'RE SEEING NOW HOW GAR GARGANUAN THE TASK IS.

ARE THERE GOING TO BE MULTIPLE HURDLES ALONG THE WAY?

YES.

AND THE OTHER THING TO UNPACK IS: WHERE IS HERD IMMUNITY?

IT IS SOMEWHERE BETWEEN 70% AND 90% WITH THE CURRENT STRAINS THAT HAVE BEEN AROUND IN THE UNITED STATES.

THE NEW STRAIN IS MUCH MORE CONTAGIOUS.

AND IF IT'S MUCH MORE CONTAGIOUS, YOU'VE GOT TO PUSH THOSE NUMBERS EVEN HIGHER.

THE CRITICAL THING WILL BE JUST GETTING AS MANY SHOTS INTO ARMS WITH AS MANY AMERICANS AS POSSIBLE OVER THE COURSE OF THE NEXT SEVERAL MONTHS.

>> Braude: YOU SAID A COUPLE OF MINUTES AGO THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF WILLING RECIPIENTS, AND I DON'T DOUBT THAT AT ALL, WITH ONE CAVEAT: I HAVE BEEN APPALLED BY THE RESPONSE OF SOME FRONTLINE HEALTH CARE PROVIDERS, WHETHER IN ASSISTED LIVING FACILITIES OR FRONTLINE PEOPLE IN HOSPITALS THAT DO JOBS LIKE YOU AND YOUR COLLEAGUES DO.

IS THERE ANY REASON WHY VACCINES SHOULD NOT BE MANDATORY, AT LEAST FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE PROVIDING FRONTLINE HEALTH CARE TO SICK PEOPLE?

>> I WILL SAY ONE THING ABOUT THE HEFT TANS SEE.

THE HESITANCY.

YOU HAVE TO SEPARATE PEOPLE WHO HAVE ANXIETY AND CONCERNS ABOUT IS IT GOING TO BE SAFE?

IT IS UNDER EMERGENCY-USE AUTHORIZATION.

IT IS NOT FULLY APPROVED.

IT IS STILL TECHNICALLY EXPERIMENTAL.

IT IS UNDERSTANDING THAT PEOPLE HAVE CONCERNS.

IT IS MUCH SMALLER THE PEOPLE WHO ARE ANTI-VACCINES, WHO ARE GOING ON THE ATTACK AGAINST US.

I THINK THAT HESITANCY IS SOMETHING TO LISTEN TO AND LET THEM WORK THEIR WAY THROUGH IT.

WHAT WE'VE SEEN IS INTEREST AND WILLINGNESS TO GET VACCINATED HAD SKYROCKETED.

ONCE PEOPLE SEE THEY HAVE NEIGHBORS AND COLLEAGUES AND HEALTH CARE WORKERS GETTING VACCINATED AND THAT THEY'RE DOING OKAY, AND, IN FACT, THEY'RE STARTING TO GET A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF FREEDOM AND NORMALCY THAT COMES OUT OF THIS.

>> Braude: CAN WE SPEND THE LAST 90 SECONDS, IF WE CAN, DOCTOR, ON ANOTHER TOPIC.

FOR THREE YEARS YOU WERE THE -- YOU RAN AND THEN YOU WERE CHAIR OF THE BOARD OF HAVEN, WHICH WAS THIS JOINT VENTURE FROM SOME OF THE BIG BOYS, AMAZON, J.P. MORGAN, WITH THIS GOAL TO ULTIMATELY DEAL WITH THE COST AND QUALITY ISSUES.

IT SHUT DOWN A WEEK OR SO AGO.

DID THAT EXPERIENCE GIVE YOU ANYMORE INSIGHT ON TO WHAT WOULD WORK ON THE REFORM FRONT, DOCTOR?

>> Doctor: I THINK THERE ARE A COUPLE OF THINGS.

ONE IS THAT IT IS CLEAR THAT THERE ARE SOME PROBLEMS THAT CAN BE SOLVED IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR AND BY EMPLOYERS THEMSELVES.

THERE ARE OTHER PROBLEMS THAT CLEARLY NEED THE PUBLIC SECTOR.

ONE BIG ONE IS THAT WHEN YOU HAVE EMPLOYEES, AND YOU TIE THEIR HEALTH CARE TO WHERE THEY WORK, MANY EMPLOYERS ONLY HAVE THOSE PEOPLE FOR TWO OR THREE OR FOUR YEARS.

INVESTING IN WHAT THEY NEED FOR THE COURSE OF THEIR ENTIRE LIFE, WE CAN USE GEOMICS, AND THOSE REQUIRE INVESTMENTS FOR LONG IN THE FUTURE.

ALL OF THIS IS AN INDICATION THAT WE ARE PAYING FOR THE MISTAKE OF TYING PEOPLE'S HEALTH CARE TO WHERE THEY WORK.

THAT SYSTEM IS BREAKING EVEN MORE UNDER COVID.

AND SO WE ARE GOING TO NEED THE CONTINUITY THAT A PUBLIC SYSTEM, AT LEAST A PUBLIC OPTION, CAN PROVIDE.

>> Braude: DOCTOR, I REALLY APPRECIATE YOUR TIME AND YOUR WORK.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SPENDING IT WITH ME.

>> Doctor: THANK YOU.

>> Braude: AFTER DAYS OF CLAIMS FROM VARIOUS LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIALS THAT THEY HAD NO INTELLIGENCE INDICATING ANY OF THE PRO-TRUMP PROTESTORS HAD PLANNED VIOLENCE, THE "WASHINGTON POST" IS REPORTING THAT THE F.B.I.

ISSUED A WARNING THE DAY BEFORE THE RIOTS, ABOUT AN ONLINE THREAD TELLING MARCHERS, QUOTE, "BE READY TO FIGHT.

CONGRESS NEEDS TO HEAR GLASS BREAKING, DOORS BEING KICKED IN.

GET VIOLENT.

STOP CALLING THIS A MARCH OR A RALLY OR A PROTEST.

GO THERE READY FOR WAR."

D.O.J.

OFFICIALS ANNOUNCED TODAY THEY EXPECT HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE WILL BE CHARGED AS A RESULT FROM CRIMES RANGING FROM SIMPLE TRESPASS TO FELONY MURDER AND POSSIBLY TREASON AND SEDITION.

AND CHUCK SCHUMER HAS CALLED FOR ANYONE AT THE CAPITOL ON WEDNESDAY SHOULD BE ADDED TO THE NO-FLY LIST.

AND THERE ARE PLANS FOR AN UPRISING IF THE PRESIDENT IS REMOVED BEFORE JANUARY 20th, AND STILL THE HOUSE IS EXPECTED TO PASS A RESOLUTION LATER TONIGHT, URGING VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE TO INVOKE THE 25th AMENDMENT AND REMOVE DONALD TRUMP FROM OFFICE IN THE NEXT 24 HOURS.

AND IF -- OR MORE LIKELY WHEN HE DOES NOT, THE HOUSE WILL MOVE FORWARD ON IMPEACHMENT CHARGES OF INCITEMENT OF INSURRECTION.

>> President Trump: AS PEOPLE THOUGHT THAT WHAT I SAID WAS TOTALLY APPROPRIATE, THEY ANALYZED MY SPEECH AND MY WORDS AND MY FINAL PARAGRAPH, MY FINAL SENTENCE, AND EVERYBODY TO THE "T" THOUGHT IT WAS TOTALLY APPROPRIATE.

>> Braude: I CAN ASSURE YOU THEY DID NOT, AND AS FOR THE PUSH TO GET HIM OUT OF OFFICE -- >> President Trump: THIS IMPEACHMENT IS CAUSING TREMENDOUS ANGER, AND YOU'RE DOING IT, AND IT IS REALLY A TERRIBLE THING THAT THEY'RE DOING.

FOR NANCY PELOSI AND CHUCK SCHUMER TO CONTINUE ON THIS PATH, I THINK IT IS CAUSING TREMENDOUS DANGER TO OUR COUNTRY AND IT IS CAUSING TREMENDOUS ANGER.

I WANT NO VIOLENCE.

>> Braude: IF THAT IS THE CASE, I SUGGEST HE TALK MORE TO HIS SUPPORTERS AND A LITTLE LESS TO PELOSI AND SCHUMER.

HOW MANY REPUBLICANS WILL JOIN DEMOCRATS IN THEIR EFFORTS TO REMOVE TRUMP?

WE'VE HAD SOME TOUGH TALK, BUT ALREADY SOME ARE BACKING OFF, LIKE SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM, JUST FIVE DAYS AFTER HE PASSIONATELY DECLARED ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

HE TWEETED YESTERDAY A SECOND IMPEACHMENT WILL DO MORE HARM THAN GOOD.

AND THEN TODAY HE FLEW TO TEXAS, ALONG WITH TRUMP, ON AIR FORCE ONE.

IT IS NICE THAT THE RECOVER TIME AFTER CATCHING A CASE OF THE MORALS IS SUCH A QUICK ONE.

BUT FOR THE OTHERS WHO ARE APPARENTLY IMMUNE, THEY'RE STARTING TO SEE CONSEQUENCES OF A DIFFERENT TIME.

SIMON & SCHUSTER PLANS TO CANCEL AN UPCOMING BOOK FROM SENATOR JOSH HAWLEY.

MANY MAJOR BUSINESSES HAVE EITHER PAUSED OR PERMANENTLY HALTED DONATIONS TO ALL 147 REPUBLICANS IN CONGRESS WHO OBJECTED TO CERTIFYING THE RESULTS AFTER WEDNESDAY'S ATTACK, INCLUDING AMAZON, MORGAN STANLEY, AT&T, STATE STREET, BLUE CROSS, BLUE SHIELD.

AND HALLMARK, GET THIS, IS TAKING THINGS A STEP FURTHER, ASKING HAWLEY AND ANOTHER SENATOR TO RETURN THEIR PREVIOUS DONATIONS.

AND AT HARVARD UNIVERSITY, MORE THAN 1,000 STUDENTS, STAFF, AND ILLUME ALUMNI WROTE A LETTER.

TODAY THE DEAN NOUNS STEFANIK WAS REMOVED FROM HER POSITION AFTER DECLINING TO STEP ASIDE.

AMONG THOSE WHO PUBLICLY PUSHED FOR THE MOVE WAS GOVERNMENT PROFESSOR THERE, RYAN ENOS, WHO SENT A LETTER TO LARRY BACOW, CALLING FOR MINIMUM STANDARDS FOR THOSE ASSOCIATED WITH HARVARD.

RYAN JOINS ME NOW, ALONG WITH SHIRLEY YOUNG.

THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Braude: RYAN, STEFANIK IS GONE.

YOU HAVE GONE OUT OF YOUR WAY TO SAY YOU SUPPORT DIVERSITY OF OPINION AT PLACES LIKE HARVARD.

SO WHERE SHOULD HARVARD DRAW THE LINE?

IS IT JUST THOSE WHO SUPPORT THE SUBVERSION OF DEMOCRACY?

OR ARE THERE OTHER ACTS THAT PEOPLE COMMIT OR THINGS THEY SAY THAT WOULD CAUSE THEM NOT TO BELONG IN A PLACE LIKE HARVARD?

>> IT IS A GREAT QUESTION, AND DRAWING THAT LINE IS ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS FOR US TO FIGURE OUT.

I THINK IT IS CLEAR FROM THE BEGINNING, ESPECIALLY AT A TIME LIKE THIS, THAT THERE IS A LINE THAT WE ALL AGREE ON.

THAT LINE WILL INCLUDE BEING ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF VIOLENCE, NOT COMMITTING VIOLENCE, AND BEING ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF THINGS LIKE SUBVERTING DEMOCRACY.

I THINK WHAT HARVARD DOES HAVE IS HAS A LOT OF REALLY SMART PEOPLE WHO CAN FIGURE OUT WHERE THAT LINE SHOULD BE DRAWN.

ATWE WON'T PUNISH PEOPLE FOR THEIR SPEECH.

THAT'S NOT THE ISSUE.

THE ISSUE WOULD BE SOMETHING LIKE SUBVERTING DEMOCRACY OR ENCOURAGING VIOLENCE.

>> Braude: SPEAKING OF VIOLENCE, IF I CAN JUST RUN ONE BY YOU: WHAT IF A MEMBER OF CONGRESS SUPPORTED THE POLICY OF SEPARATING A PARENT FROM THEIR KID AT THE BORDER AFTER THEY ENTERED THIS COUNTRY, A DIFFERENT KIND OF VIOLENCE, DIFFERENT BUT NO LESS EVIL AND PAINFUL.

SHOULD THEY HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO SERVE IN SOME CAPACITY AT A PLACE LIKE HARVARD?

>> THE THINGS LIKE THAT ARE A VERY GOOD QUESTION, OF COURSE.

I THINK WE HAVE TO MAKE A SEPARATION BETWEEN POLICY AND THE ENCOURAGEMENT OF VIOLENCE AND OVERTHROWING THE GOVERNMENT.

UNFORTUNATELY, GOVERNMENTS HAVE ALL KINDS OF VIOLENCE THAT THEY PROMOTE AND ENGAGE IN.

THERE IS WAR.

THERE IS THE DEATH PENALTY.

THERE ARE ALL KINDS OF THINGS.

AND WE CAN SAY THE GOVERNMENT HAS ALL DIFFERENT POLICIES, BUT THAT IS DIFFERENT FROM THE VIOLENCE AND OVERTHROWING THE GOVERNMENT.

>> Braude: SHIRLEY, YOU HAVE WRITTEN IN THE GLOBE ABOUT CORPORATE AMERICA GETTING RELIGION, VISIT AN EPIPHANY IN THE SUBVERSION OF THIS SEM DE.

DEMOCRACY.

DO YOU HAVE ANY SENSE WHAT THE MOTIVATION IS?

IS IT BOTTOM LINE OR IS IT ALL OF A SUDDEN AN EXPLOSION OF PRINCIPLE?

WHAT IS THE MOTIVATOR?

>> I THINK IT IS A LITTLE BIT OF BOTH.

I MEAN, I'VE NEVER SEEN SUCH A FLOOD OF REACTION FROM CORPORATE AMERICA SO SWIFTLY.

IT HAS NOT EVEN BEEN A WEEK SINCE THE INSURRECTION, AND IN THE DAYS FOLLOWING, YOU HAVE ALL OF THESE MAJOR COMPANIES SAYING WE'RE GOING TO PAUSE POLITICAL DONATIONS TO BOTH PARTIES.

OR IN SOME CASES, WE'RE GOING TO PAUSE DONATIONS TO THE 147 REPUBLICANS WHO OPPOSED THE ELECTION OUTCOME.

THEY MAY SEEM LIKE THEY'RE DISPLAYING SOME MORAL OUTRAGE, BUT THEY FEEL PRESSURE FROM INVESTORS AND COSTUMERS TO DO SOMETHING AND STAND UP FOR DEMOCRACY.

A LOT DREW THE LINE AT, LIKE RYAN SAID, SUBVERTING DEMOCRACY.

WE CAN HAVE A DIFFERENT OPINION ON POLITICS, BUT WE NEED TO STAND UP AND PROTECT OUR DEMOCRACY.

>> Braude: WHEN YOU SAY A DIFFERENCE OF OPINION, IT SEEMS TO ME, UNTIL NOW, FOR MOST OF THEM, NOT ALL OF THEM, AS LONG AS THE TAX BREAKS AND THE DEREGULATION WAS FLOWING, MASOGONY WAS OKAY, RACISM WAS OKAY, AND I UNDERSTAND THIS IS QUALITATIVELY DIFFERENT, BUT PEOPLE AT THE RECEIVING END OF THOSE THINGS PROBABLY FEEL JUST AS STRONGLY AS THOSE BUSINESSES AND PEOPLE LIKE RYAN FEEL ABOUT THIS ANTI-DEMOCRATIC MOVE, NO?

>> I MEAN, WHEN WE LOOK BACK AT WHAT CORPORATE AMERICANS AND REPUBLICAN ALLIES -- THEY SHOULD HAVE STOOD UP TO TRUMP.

THEY SHOULD HAVE STOOD UP TO MIGRANT CHILDREN IN CAGES.

ONE COULD ARGUE BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T BEFORE, IT LED TO THIS EMBOLDENED ACT LAST WEEK.

SO I THINK THERE ARE A LOT OF HISTORY LESSONS TO BE LEARNED HERE.

A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE SAYING IT IS GREAT THAT CORPORATE AMERICA IS STANDING UP NOW.

IS IT TOO LATE?

AND WHAT MORE CAN CORPORATE AMERICA DO TO PREVENT THIS FROM HAPPENING ALL OVER AGAIN?

NOT JUST INSURRECTION, BUT OTHER COMPANIES ARE LOOKING AT SHOULD WE BE PROCESSING THE CREDIT CARDS FOR WHITE SUPREMACIST GROUPS?

WHAT ELSE CAN WE DO TO -- >> Braude: I CAN DECIDE THAT ONE.

THE ANSWER IS NO.

IF THEY WANT SOME ADVICE, I'LL GIVE THEM ADVICE ON THAT ONE.

RYAN, I MENTIONED YOU WROTE TO LARRY BACOW, HARVARD'S PRESIDENT, AND HAVE YOU HEARD BACK?

>> I HAVE.

HE WROTE ME BACK.

>> Braude: WHAT IS THE BOTTOM LINE?

>> HE IS VERY CONCERNED ABOUT THIS.

THERE HAS ALREADY BEEN ACTION FROM THE DEANS OF HARVARD.

THAT STAFF STEFANIK IS OUT.

>> Braude: BUT I'M SURE YOU WORRY, THIS IS SORT OF FUELING THE FLAMES OF THE RIGHT THAT HAS BEEN SAYING FOR AGES THAT THERE IS CENSORSHIP ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES, AND IT IS GENERALLY DIRECTED AT CONSERVATIVE POINTS OF VIEW.

DO YOU NOT WORRY, EVEN IF YOU'RE CONFIDENT, IN THE CASE OF STEFANIK -- DO YOU NOT WORRY ABOUT FUELING THOSE FLAMES?

>> I WAS VERY CLEAR ABOUT THIS WHEN I WROTE TO LARRY BACOW, AND I SAID I THINK UNIVERSITIES, INCLUDING HARVARD, NEED MORE CONSERVATIVE VOICES, BECAUSE IT IS A PROBLEM.

BUT WE CAN ALL AGREE THAT CONSERVATIVES SHOULD INCLUDE VIOLENCE AND OVERTHROWING THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT.

AND WE NEED TO SEPARATE THOSE TWO THINGS.

>> Braude: SHIRLEY, ONE LAST THING ABOUT THIS CORPORATE ACTION.

ARE ANY OF THESE PEOPLE WORRIED ABOUT SHAREHOLDER LAWSUITS.

ONE OF THOSE 147, KEVIN McCARTHY, IS LIKELY TO BE THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE IN THE 2022 MID-TERM ELECTIONS.

I CAN IMAGINE A SHAREHOLDER SAYING YOU'RE PREFUSSELL TO GIVEYOU'RE -- REFUSAL TO GIVE MONEY TO THE SINGLE MOST POWERFUL REPUBLICAN -- HAVE ANY OF THEM VOICED CONCERNS OR THEY JUST PLOWING AHEAD HERE?

>> THERE ARE A LOT OF COMPANIES SITTING ON THE FENCE RIGHT NOW.

THEY HAVE NOT MADE FINAL DECISIONS ABOUT POLITICAL CONTRIBUTIONS.

I'M SURE THAT IS GOING INTO THE CALULAS, WHETHER IT IS LONGER THAN THE FIRST QUARTER.

SOME COMPANIES HAVE DECIDED TO GO FOR TWO YEARS, OR EVEN SIX YEARS, AND THAT WILL MAKE A VERY POWERFUL STATEMENT IF THEY DO THAT BECAUSE IT WILL BE VERY HARD TO FEND OFF THE CHALLENGER.

>> Braude: WE ONLY HAVE A MINUTE LEFT.

RYAN, STARTING WITH YOU, DO YOU SEE THIS AS THE DUNK OF A NEW DAY?

OR DO YOU WORRY IT IS A SHORT-TERM RESPONSE TO A HORRIBLE CRISIS?

>> I WOULD LIKE TO THINK IT IS THE DUNK DAWNING OF A NEW DAY.

IT MAY BRING IT BACK TO REALITY AT SOME POINT, BUT I HOPE CORPORATE RESPONSIBILITY IS GOING TO KICK IN, BECAUSE IT CERTAINLY NEEDS TO FOR ALL OF THE REASONS WE TALKED ABOUT.

>> Braude: SHIRLEY, 15 SECONDS?

>> IT IS TOO EARLY TO TELL.

CORPORATE AMERICA HAS TAKEN A STAND ON CLIMATE CHANGE, ON BOARD DIVERSITY.

THEY HAVE DONE A LOT TO FIGHT RACISM.

LET'S HOPE THIS IS THE BEGINNING OF A NEW ERA.

>> Braude: SHIRLEY AND RYAN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

I APPRECIATE TALKING TO BOTH YOU.

>>> I ALSO TALKED LAST NIGHT ABOUT HOW TROUBLING I THOUGHT IT WAS THAT BILL BELICHICK DID NOT SEE FIT TO TURN DOWN THE MEDAL OF FREEDOM FROM TRUMP.

AND SHORTLY AFTER THE SHOW, HE THOUGHTFULLY ANNOUNCED HE WAS TURNING IT DOWN.

FINALLY TONIGHT, A LITTLE OF WHAT YOU'VE BEEN SENDING IN.

ANITA STUMBLED ON THIS HOLIDAY DECLARATION IN THE WOODS.

SHE SAID THE IRIDESCENT ORNAMENT CAUSED THE BEHOLDER TO PREFLECT.

GEORGE TOLD US HIS WIFE WALKED AROUND BOND MEADOW PARK, AND PICKS UP LEFT MASKS, AND SANITIZING THEM AND PUTS THEM OUT THERE FOR REUSE ON A MASK TREE.

AND WE RECENTLY RECEIVED FEEDBACK ABOUT MY BACKGROUND ON THE SHOW.

ANDREA WROTE IN: WHERE ARE YOUR BOOKS.

EVERY OTHER PBS SITS OR STANDS IN FRONT OF THEIR BOOKS.

JUDY WOODRUFF HAS A BIOGRAPHY OF GRANT OVER HER RIGHT SHOULDER.

EITHER YOU GO INTO THE STUDIO, OR THE STUDIO COMES TO YOU, PLEASE, JUST A BOOK ON YOUR TABLE, OR NEAR YOU.

I KNOW YOU READ.

DOES THIS COUNT?

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT.

TOMORROW'S IMPEACHMENT LOOMS.

THANKS FOR WATCHING.

PLEASE STAY SAFE.

Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org