>> O'Connell: I'M SUE O'CONNELL.

TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON:" ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL, AND IN THE A.G.'s OFFICE, MAURA HEALEY MANAGED TO KEEP HER PRIVATE LIFE TO HERSELF.

BUT WITH HER NEW JOB AS GOVERNOR COMES A LOT MORE SCRUTINY.

THEN, ANOTHER CASE SOLVED BY D.N.A.

IN GENEALOGY DATABASES, THIS TIME, THE MURDER OF FOUR IDAHO UNIVERSITY STUDENTS.

IT'S A BOON FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT, BUT IS IT GOOD FOR THE REST OF US?

WE'LL DISCUSS.

♪ ♪ ♪ >> O'Connell: AS WE KNOW MAURA HEALEY'S INAUGURATION MADE BOTH STATE AND U.S. HISTORY LAST WEEK, AS THE FIRST WOMAN ELECTED GOVERNOR OF MASSACHUSETTS, AND ONE OF TWO OUT LESBIAN GOVERNORS ELECTED NATIONWIDE IN NOVEMBER.

AND, HEALEY MADE HISTORY AT HER PREVIOUS POST, TOO, AS THE COUNTRY'S FIRST OUT GAY ATTORNEY GENERAL.

BUT DESPITE HER LONG-TIME PUBLIC PROFILE, HEALEY HAS KEPT MUCH OF HER PERSONAL LIFE PRIVATE-- THAT IS, UNTIL THIS WEEK.

HEALEY AND HER PARTNER OF TWO YEARS, HER FORMER DEPUTY IN THE A.G.'s OFFICE, JOANNA LYDGATE, GAVE AN INTERVIEW TO "BOSTON GLOBE" COLUMNIST YVONNE ABRAHAM THAT CAME OUT MONDAY.

IN IT, HEALEY EXPLAINED HER REASONS FOR MAINTAINING HER PRIVACY: SAYING: "HOLDING ON TO MY PERSONAL RELATIONSHIPS AND CLOSE-KNIT CIRCLE PROBABLY HELPED ME GET THROUGH THE LAST EIGHT YEARS."

BUT NOW THAT SHE'S IN THE CORNER OFFICE ON BEACON HILL, HOW MUCH OF HER PRIVATE LIFE DOES SHE OWE TO THE PUBLIC?

I'M JOINED NOW BY ARLINE ISAACSON, CO-CHAIR, MASSACHUSETTS GAY & LESBIAN POLITICAL CAUCUS, ALONG WITH DEMOCRATIC ACTIVIST AND WRITER, MARY BRESLAUER.

WELCOME TO BOTH OF YOU.

ARLINE, WE'LL JUST GO TO IT.

IT'S A HISTORIC MOMENT FOR EVERYONE BUT THE HOME OF MARRIAGE EQUALITY HERE IN MASSACHUSETTS.

>> YOU'RE SO RIGHT, SUZE.

HOW HISTORIC AND MOVING THIS ALL HAS BEEN TO HAVE AN OUT AND PROUD LESBIAN WHO IS ARTICULATE AND CARING AND THOUGHTFUL AND COMPASSIONATE WHO WILL MAKE A FANTASTIC GOVERNOR BUT VERY IMPORTANTLY WHO IS SUPPORTED OVERWHELMINGLY IN HER ELECTION BUT OVERWHELMINGLY BY STRAIGHT MEN AND WOMEN.

AND THAT IS INCREDIBLE AND HISTORIC AND WONDERFUL.

GO AHEAD.

>> O'Connell: I WAS GOING TO SAY MARY, I SPENT A LOT OF TIME OVER THE PAST WEEK, SPEAKING TO OTHERS IN THE BUSINESS ABOUT THE STORY IN THE GLOBE ABOUT MAURA HEALEY'S RELATIONSHIP AND EXPLAINING IT'S NOT AS SALACIOUS AS IT WOULD THINK, BEING WHO WE ARE, BEING A LITTLE BABY LESBIAN YOU DIDN'T KNOW YOU WERE A BABY LESBIAN UNTIL LATER.

CAN YOU JUST TALK ABOUT FOR OUR AUDIENCE WHAT WE DIDN'T HAVE THE AVENUES TO WHEN WE WERE BORN PRIOR TO MAYBE 2003?

>> WELL, I MEAN I THINK YOU JUST REALLY HAVE TO GO TO OUR SORT OF YOUNG ADULTHOOD.

I MEAN IT WAS 1990, AND WFNX HAD ONE IN TEN, THE FIRST LBT RADIO LGBT SHOW.

TO THIS DAY, SOMEBODY STOPS ME AND SAYS, ARE YOU MARY BRESLAUER, I CAN'T TELL YOU HOW IMPORTANT IT WAS TO ME TO HAVE THAT RADIO OUTLET, THERE WAS NO INTERNET, LIBRARIES DID NOT CARRY OUR BOOKS.

THIS WAS A SHOW THAT WAS ON FROM 10 TO MIDNIGHT AND PEOPLE COULD GO HOME AND PUT THEIR TRAN TRANSISTOR RADIO ON AND TALKING ABOUT LGBT LIVES THAT THEY HAD NO INDICATION THAT WAS OUT THERE.

YOU LOOK AT THE POLLING IN THE MID 1990s 68% OF THE COUNTRY WAS OPPOSED TO MARRIAGE EQUALITY.

TODAY, 70% OF THE COUNTRY IS FOR MARRIAGE EQUALITY.

YOU KNOW, THE AIDS EPIDEMIC AS TRAGIC AND HORRIFIC AS THAT WAS COMPELLED MANY OF US TO COME OUT.

YOU KNOW, MANY PEOPLE WHO WERE IN THE CLOSET CAME OUT.

YOU GO TO DON'T ASK, DON'T TELL THAT HORRENDOUS AND DISGRACED POLICY THAT CLINTON PUT INTO PLACE AND YOU HAD THE COVERS OF "TIME" MAGAZINE AND NEWS WEEK WITH PATRIOTIC LGBT AMERICANS SERVING THEIR COUNTRY.

AND IT BECAME VERY DIFFICULT TO IGNORE US.

THAT WAS I THINK SORT OF THE SORT OF MODERN AGE 20th CENTURY SORT OF LEADUP TO THE MARRIAGE EQUALITY FRONT.

BUT THE NUMBERS HAVE FLIPPED IN THE LAST 25 YEARS.

AND IT HAS A LOT TO DO WITH, YOU KNOW, WHY WE HAVE MAURA HEALEY AS OUR GOVERNOR TODAY.

>> O'Connell: EILEEN, WE'RE NOW AT A POINT WHEREBY WE'VE SAID DON'T SAY GAY BUSINESS HAPPENING IN FLORIDA, BUSINESSES FOR TRANS INDIVIDUALS IN THE UNITED STATES.

I'M READING STORY AFTER STORY OF TRANS FOLKS SAYING I'M CONSIDERING LEAVING THE UNITED STATES BECAUSE I DON'T FEEL SAFE HERE.

FROM THE OTHER PLACE, AN ATTEMPT TO KIDNAP THE GOVERNOR OF A STATE, I'VE BEEN SAYING I CAN UNDERSTAND WHY ALMOST ANY ELECTED OFFICIAL WOULD WANT TO KEEP THEIR PRIVATE LIFE PRIVATE.

AND TALKING ABOUT THE WAYS THAT MAYBE IT'S TIME FOR US TO HAVE A GOVERNOR'S MANSION HERE IN MASSACHUSETTS AS WELL.

YOU KNOW, CHARLIE BAKER AND HIS SYSTEM HAVE GONE THROUGH A NUMBER OF PROTESTS ON THEIR FRONT LAWN WHICH I'M NOT SURE REALLY MOVED THE BALL FORWARD ON ANY OF THE ISSUES THAT FOLKS WERE PROTESTING.

>> YOU'RE RIGHT, WE'RE IN A VERY SO MANY VIEM UGLY FALSE THINGS SAID ABOUT US.

30, 40, EVEN 20 YEARS AGO.

ACCUSATIONS AND CONDEMNATIONS THAT WERE NOWHERE NEAR ANYTHING HAVING TO DO WITH THE REALITY OF OUR LIST LIVES.

WE MADE IT THROUGH THOSE FOR THE MOST PART, CERTAINLY IN MASSACHUSETTS, ENOUGH TO GET TO A POINT AS MARY RIGHTLY POINTS OUT WHERE AN OUT LESBIAN CAN BE ELECTED GOVERNOR.

IT'S ENORMOUS, IT'S ABSOLUTELY HUGE.

THE PENDULUM SWINGS BACK THE WAY YOU JUST DESCRIBED BUT SITTING THERE WATCHING THE INAUGURATION LAST WEEK WAS SO MOVING, I BECAME TEARY WATCHING IT, AND I'M A PRETTY HARDENED OLD BATTLE AX.

I DIDN'T THINK ANYTHING COULD GET TO ME ANYMORE.

IT WAS PROFOUND AND BAD, THINGS ARE BAD, IN THE COUNTRY, WE HAD NAZIS HERE GOING AFTER OUR COMMUNITY THAT WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO FIGHT AGAINST BUT WE'VE MADE IT A LONG WAY.

>> O'Connell: MARY, YOU WRITE IN THE INAUGURATION IN THE VINEYARD GA GAZETTE, ONE OF THE FEW WOMEN IN THE OFFICES OF THE HAWMS OF POWER AND UNTIL RECENTLY MASSACHUSETTS DIDN'T HAVE A GREAT SCORECARD WHEN IT COMES TO STATEWIDE LEADERSHIP FOR WOMEN.

IT SEEMS TO ME WE'VE LEAPFROGGED AHEAD.

BUT TALK ABOUT THE INAUGURATION MEANT TO YOU AND THE FEELINGS THAT HAVE BROUGHT UP, SINCE LET'S TALK ABOUT FEEMTION MARY, HOW DID YOU FEEL?

>> WHY NOT, WHY NOT?

LOOK, YOU KNOW WHAT I WROTE ABOUT WAS THE INAUGURAL PARTY.

AND TO SEE THE FLOOR OF THE BOSTON GARDEN, THAT PARQUETED FLOOR WITH THE 17 CHAMPIONSHIP BANNERS HANGING FROM THE SKY, FILLED WITH WOMEN AND GIRLS, AND LGBT PEOPLE, WAVING, YOU KNOW, RAINBOW LIGHT STICKS, AND BRANDY CARLYLE BEING THE LEAD ENTERTAINMENT, BRANDY AND HER WIFE WHO CAME TO MASSACHUSETTS IN 2012 TO MARRY HERE, I MEAN, TO ME, IT'S JUST SO ENCAPSULATED SO MUCH OF WHAT THE THREE OF US HAVE LIVED THROUGH.

WITH THE BATTLE SCARS TO SHOW IT, RIGHT?

AND, YOU KNOW, YES, YOU KNOW, A SEA CHANGE.

I MEAN, YOU KNOW, ARLINE REMEMBERS IT WAS ONE OF THE UGLIEST MOMENTS IN STATE GOVERNMENT, THE BABBITS AND WHERE DUCACUS TOOK TWO BOYS AWAY FROM LOVING FATHERS, WHO ADOPTED FOUR BOYS WHO ARE NOW ADULTS, CLEARLY IT HAD NOTHING DO ABOUT THE CALIBER OF THEIR PARENTHOOD AND EVERYBODY WENT BACK IN THE CLOSET BACK THEN.

AND I HAPPEN TO BE IN STATE GOVERNMENT, I DECIDED NOT TO RESIGN BECAUSE I REALIZED IF I RESIGNED THERE WAS NOBODY WHO WAS GOING TO BE OUT IN STATE GOVERNMENT.

THINK ABOUT THAT.

THAT'S 19, I'M TAKING A GUESS HERE, 84, 85, 86, MID 80s, YEAH, AND LOOK AT WHERE WE ARE TODAY.

SO YEAH, SO VERY DIFFERENT TIME.

JUST THE CIVIL RIGHTS BILL, HOW DIFFICULT THAT WAS TO GET THROUGH ARLINE.

THE AIDS POLICIES, ALL OF IT WAS ABOUT -- SO YES.

LOOK, WE LIVE IN A COUNTRY WHERE, AND PARTICULARLY NOW WHERE ARE THESE HUGE DIVISIONS BUT I SORT OF FEEL THERE'S MORE LIGHT THERE.

THERE'S JUST MORE LIGHT THERE.

AND THERE'S MORE SUPPORT THERE, THAN I THINK THE FAR RIGHT MAGNET EXTREMEISTS WOULD HAVE YOU BELIEVE.

AND AS ARLINE POINTED OUT WE SAW THOSE IN THE OVERWHELMING NUMBERS FOR MAURA HEALEY AND I WILL SAY FOR ANDREA CAMPBELL WHO WILL BE OUR FIRST BLACK ATTORNEY GENERAL.

SO YOU KNOW, HONESTLY, MASSACHUSETTS HAS ALWAYS BEEN A GREAT PLACE TO BE.

AND YOU FEEL IT SORT OF EVEN MORE PROFOUNDLY AFTER WHAT'S TRANSPIRED IN THE LAST WEEK AT LEAST FOR ME.

AT LEAST FOR ME.

>> O'Connell: YOU KNOW, ARLINE, I OFTEN JOKE WHEN WE KNOW WE'LL BE EQUITY WHEN WE JUST HAVE TO BE MEDIOCRE.

I WAS HOSTED ONE AND TEN WHATEVER DECADE IT WAS AGO, A TEENAGE ARE CALLED IN AND SAID, SOMETIME BEING GAY WON'T BE THE MOST STRIKING PART OF YOU.

I WAS STRUCK BY THE FACT THAT, pWE'VE GOT GOVERNOR HEALEY AND OPENLY GAY GOVERNORS AND OFFICIALS AND WE'VE GOT GEORGE SANTOS WHO WE THINK WAS OPENLY GAY, WE DON'T KNOW FOR SURE, WE DON'T KNOW IF THAT WAS HIS NAME, BUT I'VE BEEN STRUCK BY THE COVERAGE THAT HIM BEING GAY IS AGAIN THE LEAST INTERESTING PART OF THE STORY AND ACTUALLY DOESN'T REALLY FALL INTO THE COVERAGE OF IT.

SO THERE IS A MOMENT TO TAKE AND SAY, WELL THAT'S PROGRESS TOO, NO?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I MEAN FIRSTLY IF GEORGE SANTOS IS GAY, WE'RE GOING TO REJECT HIS CERTIFICATION AND TAKE IT BACK.

>> TAKE THE CARD BACK ARLINE.

>> YOU'RE RIGHT, IT'S POLICE OF A BIG DEAL THAN IT ONCE WAS.

IN AN HISTORIC CONTEXT IT IS A BIG FRIGGING DEAL.

WHEN I SAW THAT HEADLINE THAT STORY I WAS SIMULTANEOUSLY THRILLED FOR HER ALTHOUGH AS THE FRIEND SAID, THE WOMAN IS SO HOT IT PROBABLY BROKE THE HEARTS OF MANY LESBIANS IN THE STATE.

YOU DO WANT AN INTENSE POLITICAL ENVIRONMENT, A SAFE HAVEN WHERE YOU CAN LOVE AND BE LOVED AND BE PROTECTED IN FAMILY.

I WAS THRILLED FOR HER AND CANDIDLY WHAT A COUPLE, TWO SMART, BRIGHT, ATTRACTIVE WOMEN WHO HAVE DEDICATED SO MANY MUCH OF THEIR PROFESSIONAL LIVES TO PUBLIC SERVICE.

THAT IS A GREAT DEAL IN MY OPINION.

>> O'Connell: THANK YOU, YAIRLT ISAACSON, MARY BRESAUER, THANKS.

NEXT UP, YOU'VE LIKELY HEARD OF THE GRUESOME MURDERS AT THE UNIVERSITY OF IDAHO, WHERE FOUR STUDENTS WERE STABBED TO DEATH WHILE THEY WERE SLEEPING IN THEIR OFF-CAMPUS HOUSE IN NOVEMBER.

THEY WERE ETHAN CHAPIN, XANA KERNODLE, MADISON MOGEN AND KAYLEE GONCALVES, ALL EITHER 20 OR 21 YEARS OLD.

YOU MAY HAVE ALSO HEARD THAT A 28-YEAR-OLD BRYAN KOHBERGER A Ph.D CRIMINOLOGY STUDENT AT A NEARBY UNIVERSITY, WAS ARRESTED FOR THE SLAYINGS LATE LAST MONTH, AND CHARGED WITH FOUR COUNTS OF FIRST DEGREE MURDER LAST WEEK.

BUT YOU MAY NOT KNOW HOW INVESTIGATORS ZEROED IN ON KOHBERGER.

POLICE CITED A CAR REGISTERED TO THE SUSPECT, WHICH WAS CAUGHT ON SURVEILLANCE TAPE NEAR THE SCENE OF THE CRIME.

AND, THERE WERE PLENTY OF DETAILS ABOUT THE CRIME SCENE.

BUT ACCORDING TO A REPORT FROM SLATE, THE MAIN TOOL THAT LED POLICE TO KOHBERGER WAS "SOMETHING THAT IS NEVER MENTIONED IN THE 18-PAGE AFFIDAVIT: FORENSIC GENEALOGY."

I'M JOINED BY THE AUTHOR OF THAT REPORT, TECH WRITER HEATHER TAL MURPHY, AND ANTONIO REGALADO, SENIOR EDITOR FOR "BIOMEDICINE, M.I.T.

TECHNOLOGY REVIEW."

WELCOME TO BOTH OF YOU.

HEATHER I GAVE A LITTLE BIT OF A RECAP BUT BEFORE WE GET TO THE DNA AND THE GENEALOGY, CAN YOU JUST EXPLAIN HOW THE POLICE ZEROED IN ON THIS SUSPECT?

BECAUSE THERE WERE A LOT OF REPORTS FOR A WHILE, A LOT OF ARMCHAIR FOLKS SAYING POLICE AREN'T DOING ANYTHING BUT APPARENTLY THEY WERE INVESTIGATE.

>> YES, SO ON NOVEMBER 13th WAS THIS TRAGIC DAY AROUND 4 A.M. SOMEBODY A MAN WEARING A MASK COVERING MOST OF HIS FACE HAD ENTERED THIS HOUSE WHERE THESE STUDENTS AT THE UNIVERSITY OF IDAHO LIVED.

AND BY THE TIME THE POLICE ARRIVED THEY FOUND FOUR OF THEM DEAD, TWO WHO WERE DAITING, TWO WHO WERE BEST FRIENDS.

AND ON HIS WAY OUT HE WALKED BY THIS VERY STUNNED ROOMMATE AND SEEMINGLY LEFT.

SO ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS THAT EVERYONE STARTED HEARING ABOUT IN THIS CASE PARTLY BECAUSE THE MOSCOW POLICE DEPARTMENT PUT OUT LOTS OF PLEAS ON THEIR FACEBOOK PAGE WAS TO PLEASE GIVE THEM ANY TIPS ABOUT A WHITE HYUNDAI ELANTRA.

SO VERY QUICKLY THEY HAD FOUND SOME SURVEILLANCE FOOTAGE WHICH FOUND A WHITE HYUNDAI ELANTRA, THEY COULDN'T SEE THE LICENSE PLATE, THEY WEREN'T CERTAIN OF A YEAR, RAGE OF YEARS FROM 2011 TO 2016 THAT THEY WANTED THIS WHITE HYUNDAI.

SOMETHING WE HAVE TO KEEP IN MIND IS WHITE HYUNDAI ELANTRAS ARE SOME OF THE TOP SELLING CARS IN AMERICA, WHITE IS ONE OF THE MOST POPULAR COLORS FOR A CAR.

THEY ACKNOWLEDGED ON THEIR FACEBOOK PAGE THAT THEY HAD THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF WHITE HYUNDAI ELANTRAS.

SO WE KNEW THIS KIND OF PECULIAR FACT, THEY DIDN'T HAVE A SUSPECT, DIDN'T SEEM TO BE ADVANCING YET VERY QUICKLY WE LEARNED FROM THE AFFIDAVIT IN TWO DIFFERENT WAYS THEY HAD ACTUALLY IDENTIFIED THE PARTICULAR WHITE ELANTRA THAT WOULD COME INTO WAY LATER, TWO WAS JUST SEARCHING WHITE HYUNDAIS THAT WERE SENDING OUT POLICE OFFICERS LOOKING FOR WHITE HYUNDAI ELANTRAS, A POLICE OFFICER ACTUALLY STOOD IN FROND OF HIS APARTMENT BUILDING IN FRONT OF HIS CAR AND WROTE IT DOWN.

BUT IT WOULD BE A LONG TIME BEFORE THEY WOULD END UP WITH A SUSPECT.

THE QUESTION WAS WHY, WHAT HAPPENED IN THAT PERIOD WHEN THEY ACTUALLY BRYAN KOHBERGER, END UP UP AND WAS (INAUDIBLE).

>> YOU'RE BREAKING UP ON US.

JUST FOR A LITTLE BIT THERE.

SO I'M GOING TO JUMP TO ANTONIO.

TO KEEP THE CHALLENGES HERE IN THIS CASE, IS THAT YOU KNOW WE HAVE ALSO KIND OF VOLUNTARILY SPIT INTO VIALS AND SENT OUR DNA OFF TO THESE GENEALOGY BANKS.

AND NOW, POLICE ARE ABLE TO ACCESS THEM, TO LOOK FOR CONNECTIONS BETWEEN DNA THAT THEY HAVE.

WAS THIS ANYTHING THAT PEOPLE THOUGHT ABOUT IN ADVANCE OF THESE GENEALOGY WEBSITES?

>> WELL, IT'S IMPORTANT TO KNOW WHY THE GENEALOGY WEBSITES AROSE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

THE FIRST TIME THEY WERE USED TO CATCH A KILLER WAS IN 2018 AND IT WAS THE GOLDEN STATE KILLER.

BUT EVEN BEFORE THEN GENETIC JEANOLOGISTS HAD DEEFFECTED TECHNIQUES, GOING FROM DNA TO THEIR RELATIVES BECAUSE THEY WERE WORKING WITH THE CHILDREN WHO -- PEOPLE WHO HAD BEEN BORN FROM SPERM DONORS OR ADOPTED.

>> A LOT OF ADOPTEES.

>> SORRY, MY COMMENT JUST ARRIVED HERE, LOST MY TRAIN OF THOUGHT.

DONOR CONCEIVED INDIVIDUALS, ADOPTEES AND EVEN FOUND LINKS, LIKE THE PROVERBIAL CHILD LEFT ON THE DOOR OF THE HOSPITAL.

THOSE PEOPLE WANTED TO FIND OUT WHO THEIR BIRTH PARENTS WERE AND THIS WHOLE SYSTEM OF GENETIC JEAN YOOLG WAS BEING HELD TO HELP THEM.

INTERESTINGLY, THERE WAS A PRIVACY ISSUE TOO, MAYBE THE PARENTS DIDN'T WANT TO BE FOUND OUT BUT BECAUSE OF THIS COMMUNITY OF GENETIC GENEOLOGISTS.

>> O'Connell: SOME OF THESE SITES WERE SOMEWHAT OPEN SOURCE WHERE RULES WERE LAX, SOME THINGS COULD HAPPEN SOME COULDN'T.

THOSE RULES HAVE CHANGED BUT THEY'RE ALSO CHANGING STILL.

WHAT WAS DIFFERENT BETWEEN THE WAY POLICE USED THIS DATABASE AND THESE RULES IN INVESTIGATING THIS CRIME?

>> THAT'S AN EXCELLENT QUESTION.

SO THE 2018 GOLDEN STATE KILLER CASE THAT GOT A LOT OF ATTENTION WAS REALLY THE FIRST REALLY HIGH PROFILE MURDER CASE THAT THIS WAS USED FOR AND SHORTLY AFTER THAT POLICE DEPARTMENTS ACROSS THE ENTIRE COUNTRY STARTED USING THIS, STARTED WORKING WITH GENETIC GENEALOGISTS.

BUTTER MOST OF THOSE CASES WERE REALLY OLD CASES.

THE FIRST CASES THAT THEY FIRST STARTED WORK BEING WITH WERE CASES THAT HAD GONE COLD MANY DECADES AGO IN THOSE CASES.

THOUGH IT'S BEEN A HANDFUL OF CASES TO WHICH IT'S BEEN USED IN A MORE ACTIVE CASE OR MORE ACTIVE INVESTIGATION WHAT'S DIFFERENT ABOUT THIS CASE IS PRIMARILY THAT FORENSIC GENEALOGY CAME IN SO SOON AFTER THE CRIME ACTUALLY OCCURRED, JUST A FEW WEEKS AFTER.

WHEREAS WHAT WE'VE MOSTLY SEEN IS IT'S BEEN USED DECADES AFTER.

AND IT'S NOT THE ONLY TIME THAT IT'S USED ON AN ACTIVE INVESTIGATION BUT IT'S DEFINITELY THE MOST HIGH PROFILE MURDER INVESTIGATION THAT'S BEEN APPLIED TOWARDS SO SOON AFTER.

I DID WANT TO CLARIFY ONE THING WE WERE TALKING ABOUT WHICH DATABASES COULD BE USED, THIS ISN'T WITH 23 AND ME AND ANCESTRY.COM, IT'S WITH JED MATCH WHICH HAVE POLICIES THAT HAVE PEOPLE OPT IN OR DEFAULT OPT IN WHERE THEY WOULD PERMIT THEIR DNA PROFILES TO BE USED THIS WAY.

>> O'Connell: THANK YOU FOR CLARIFYING THAT WAY.

BUT, BIOLOGICAL FAMILY MEMBERS FOR ONE REASON OR ANOTHER, I DON'T THINK ANY OF THEM EXPECTED TO GET A PHONE CALL FROM THE POLICE ASKING IF THEY KNEW A SECOND OR THIRD COUSIN THAT THEY ARE MATCHING VIA DNA WHO MAY HAVE BEEN DRIVING A CERTAIN CAR IN A CERTAIN STATE.

HOW ARE THESE COMPANIES AND HOW ARE USERS REACTING TO THE CONCERNS THAT YOU KNOW WE ALL WANT TO HELP SOLVE CRIME BUT NOT ALL OF US WANT TO BE, YOU KNOW, PULLED INTO A CRIME INVESTIGATION?

>> RIGHT, RIGHT.

WELL, YOU KNOW, I DON'T THINK THE POLICE ARE CALLING THE PEOPLE IN THE DATABASE.

THEY USE A MATCH AS HEATHER RECOUNTS IN HER STORY, THEY USE A MATCH THEY CAN FIND A THIRD COUSIN WHO THEY THINK IS A THIRD COUSIN OR SECOND COUSIN, THEY GO TO OTHER RECORDS, AND THEY BUILD A HUMAN FAMILY TREE AND THEY GO INTO THAT FAMILY TREE AND THEY FIND THE PEOPLE WHO ARE LIKELY TO BE POSSIBLY THE SUSPECTS.

CERTAINLY AROUND THE TIME OF THE ORIGINAL CASE, THE GOLDEN STATE KILLER CASE THERE WAS A BIG DEBATE BECAUSE THE POLICE HAD USED THIS DATABASE WITHOUT INFORMING ALL THE PEOPLE WHO HAD CONTRIBUTED THEIR DNA, RIGHT?

IT WAS A SURPRISE.

THERE WAS A BIG DEBATE AND THEY SORTED IT, THEY SORTED IT OUT.

NOW YOU CAN CHOOSE TO HAVE YOUR DNA OPEN SO THE POLICE CAN SEARCH IT AND THEY RECOMMEND THAT, OR YOU CAN CHOOSE TO OPT OUT.

AND THERE'S ALSO A LIMITATION IN THIS PARTICULAR DATABASE, GD TO MATCH OR JED MATCH WHICH IS IT'S ONLY TO BE UNIVERSITY FOR VIOLENT CRIMES NOT BREAKING AND ENTERING.

BUT THE FACT IS, YOU KNOW, IN 2023, WHETHER IT IS FACIAL RECOGNITION OR DNA, YOU KNOW, THE ABILITY TO REMAIN ANONYMOUS IN SOCIETY IS KIND OF GOING AWAY.

>> O'Connell: AND HEATHER, IT IS DEFINITELY THAT THE HORSE IS ALREADY OUT OF THE BARN ON MANY OF THESE LEVELS.

BUT THE OTHER THING THAT CONCERNS ME OR I GUESS IT MAY EVEN BE THE MAIN THING THAT CONCERNS ME IS THE LEVEL OF TRAINING THAT POLICE DEPARTMENTS ARE GETTING WHEN USING FACE RECOGNITION SOFTWARE, WHEN USING, FREN SIS PROFILING AND OF COURSE -- FORENSIC PROFILING AND OF COURSE THE BIAS WE ALREADY KNOW EXISTS AND DEFINITELY THE FACIAL RECOGNITION.

WHAT DO YOU KNOW IF ANYTHING ABOUT LAW ENFORCEMENT AND WHAT KIND OF TRAINING THEY'RE DEMANDING IN ORDER TO USE THIS OR WAS THIS JUST AN ANOMALY THAT SOMEONE FIGURED OUT HOW TO DO THIS, IN THIS CASE, AND RAN WITH IT?

>> SO IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, WHAT HAPPENED IS, BECAUSE IT'S A VERY HIGH PROFILE CASE THEY ENDED UP BRING IN THE FBI'S FORENSIC GENEALOGY TEAM AND THEY HAVE 100 PEOPLE NOW FOCUSED ON FORENSIC GENEALOGY.

YOU ASKED A QUESTION, THERE IS A LOT OF DISCUSSION ABOUT THIS.

A LOT OF THESE LOWER PROFILE CASES WHETHER THEY'RE OLD CASES OR MORE RECENT CASES SOMETIMES THE AGENCIES THE POLICE DEPARTMENTS ARE TRAINING UP PEOPLE ON FORENSIC GENEALOGY THEMSELVES.

SOMETIMES THEY'RE WORKING WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE PROFESSIONAL FORENSIC GENEALOGISTS.

SOME PEOPLE DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING.

THERE IS A MOVEMENT RIGHT NOW TO TRY THE FIGURE OUT A CERTIFICATION PROCESS OR SOME LEVEL OF STANDARDIZATION.

BECAUSE OVERALL THERE IS NOT REGULATED IN ANY PARTICULARLY CLEAR WAY.

AND SO THAT IS A GOOD QUESTION.

I THINK SOME PEOPLE SAY ULTIMATELY, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO MAKE AN ARREST, JUST BASED ON WHAT THEY CALL THIS GENETIC GENEALOGY LEAD.

YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO WAIT UNTIL YOU'VE FOCUSED ON WHO IT COULD BE, THEY'VE GATHERED THE DNA OF THAT PERSON AND SEE IF IT CONFIRMS THEIR HYPOTHESES.

BUT WHERE THEY BEGAN TO FOCUS ON THE WRONG PERSON OR USE RELATIVES OF THOSE PEOPLE IN THE GENEALOGY DATABASES IN WAYS THAT WERE REALLY WRONG.

FOR THAT RENAL, WHY THERE IS SO MUCH DISCUSSION ABOUT WHAT IS IN THOSE COURT DOCUMENTS.

SO IN THE AFFIDAVIT IT DOES NOT MENTION FORENSIC GENEALOGY, IT DOES NOT MENTION GENETIC GENEALOGY.

WIN OF THE REASONS PEOPLE WANT THAT MENTIONED SOMEWHERE WHETHER IT'S IN THAT DOCUMENT OR IN A DIFFERENT CAPACITY IS IF WE HAVE NO IDEA WHEN IT'S USED IT IS VERY DIFFICULT FOR ANYONE TO ASK THESE QUESTIONS.

IF IT JUST HAPPENS BEHIND THE SCENE THEN WHO IS GOING TO ASK THESE QUESTIONS?

THAT IS ONE OF THE PRIMARY REASONS THERE IS CONCERN AND DISCUSSION RIGHT NOW ABOUT THE LOCATION AND THE DOCUMENTS.

>> O'Connell: ANTONIO IT SEEMS LIKE EVERY WEEK I FEEL LIKE TECHNOLOGY HAS ADVANCED 100 YEARS AND LAWMAKERS AND SOCIETY ARE KIND OF STUCK IN NOT CATCHING UP WITH IT, WHENEVER I HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO TALK TO COLLEGE CLASSES AND I TELL THEM THAT THERE ARE THINGS THEY SHOULD BE CONCERNED ABOUT RIGHT NOW BECAUSE WHEN THEY VISIT A COLLEGE CLASS WHEN THEY'RE 60 AND PEOPLE ASK WHY DIDN'T YOU DO MORE ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE, THEY MAY ASK, WHY DIDN'T YOU DO MORE ABOUT ROBOT POLICE DOGS?

WHAT SHOULD WE BE DOING AT HOME TO PAY ATTENTION TO, AGAIN WE WANT TO SOLVE CRIMES BUT TO PROTECT SOCIETY, SO WE DON'T MOVE SO FAST WITHOUT THE PROPER GUARDRAILS?

>> RIGHT.

LISTEN TO BE ABLE TO IF IN FACT THE TECHNOLOGY WAS USED TO CATCH THE GUILTY PARTY IN THIS TERRIBLE SET OF MURDERS, THERE IS REALLY NOT THAT MUCH TO COMPLAIN ABOUT OR EVEN THAT MUCH TO WORRY ABOUT, IT IS GOOD USE OF TNL.

I DID RESEMBLE A LIST OF WHAT CAN BE -- ASSEMBLE SOMETHING, A LIST OF WHAT CAN BE, FROM THE SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY THEY BELIEVE THAT DNA IS GOING TO BE ABLE TO PREDICT PRETTY ACCURATELY WHAT YOU LOOK LIKE.

SOMETHING THAT LOOKS LIKE A PICTURE OF YOU.

HEATHER ALREADY MENTIONED HOW FAST IT IS, IT IS REALTIME, HOW FAST CAN YOU GO FROM DNA THAT YOU FIND ON A TABLE OR A KNIFE TO THE SUSPECT.

AND OF COURSE, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE ARE ALSO, POLICE, INVESTIGATORS ARE ABLE TO WORK WITH LIKE SMALLER AND SMALLER AMOUNTS OF DNA SO YOU CAN EVEN IMAGINE A SITUATION WHERE MAYBE YOU'RE AT A POLITICAL MEETING AND THE POLICE COME AFTERWARDS AND THEY SWAB THE ROOM AND THEY CAN FIGURE OUT EVERYBODY WHO WAS AT THIS MEETING, RIGHT COME THAT IS, SO THAT IS WHY I DON'T SEE A PRIVACY ISSUE ABOUT FINDING KILLERS.

I ALSO HAVEN'T SUBMITTED MY DNA TO 23 AND ME OR ANCESTRY.COM, I DON'T KNOW WHAT WILL COME NEXT.

>> O'Connell: HEATHER TAL MURPHY, ANTONIO REGALADO, THANKS.

KEEPING US IN LEAD ON THIS IMPORTANT TOPIC.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

BYE.

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT, BUT COME BACK TOMORROW FOR "TALKING POLITICS."

SOME BOSTON CITY COUNCILORS WANT TO BRING POLICE BACK TO THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS, BUT WOULD THAT CAUSE MORE PROBLEMS THAN IT SOLVES?

PLUS, L MAURA HEALEY HAS HER FIRST SIT-DOWN AS GOVERNOR WITH THE SENATE PRESIDENT AND HOUSE SPEAKER.

THAT AND MORE, TOMORROW AT 7:00.

THANKS FOR WATCHING.

GOOD NIGHT.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org