>>> HELLO, EVERYONE.

WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

IRANIAN PROTESTERS RISE UP AND SECURITY FORCES CRACKDOWN.

STANFORD PROFESSOR ABBAS MILANI JOINS ME ON THE WIDESPREAD UNREST AND WHAT COMES NEXT.

THEN -- >> THIS UNPRECEDENTED ACTION SHOULD BE SCEN EEN IN THE BROADER CONTEXT.

>> FED CHAIR JEROME POWELL FIGHTS BACK AFTER THERE IS A INVESTIGATION OF HIM AND THE CENTRAL BANK.

WE LOOK AT UNPRECEDENTED ACTION MEANS.

>> BEN MARKOVITS TAKES US ON A ROAD TRIP TO REMEMBER.

>> PLUS - - >> THE PLACE IN MANY WAYS IS BUILT TO BURN, BUT THE FIRES WERE JUST --THEY WERE JUST NEXT LEVEL.

>> ONE YEAR AFTER THE L.A.

FIRES, REPORTER SHAWN HUBLER SPEAKS ABOUT ALL THAT WAS DESTROYED AND WHAT IT WILL TAKE TO REBUILD.

>>> "AMANPOUR & CO."

IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, THE STRAUSS FAMILY FOUNDATION, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN COONEY FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, MONIQUE SHOWN WAR SHAW, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

THE IRANIAN PEOPLE'S CALL FOR FREEDOM ARE BEING HEARD LOUD AND CLEAR AROUND THE WORLD, DESPITE AUTHORITIES DAY LONG ATTEMPT TO BLACK OUT ALL COMMUNICATIONS.

WHAT BEGAN AS DEMONSTRATIONS AGAINST THE DIRE STATE OF THE ECONOMY AND THE COST OF LIVING HAVE ESCALATED INTO A NATIONWIDE CHALLENGE TO THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC ITSELF.

AND NOW SECURITY FORCES ARE AGGRESSIVELY MOVING ON THE PROTESTERS, HUNDREDS KILLED IN THE PAST FEW DAYS, ACCORDING TO A U.S.-BASED RIGHTS GROUP.

ONE SAID THE VIOLENCE IS MUCH WORSE THAN YOU CAN EVEN IMAGINE.

NOW, IT IS CRISIS TIME FOR THE IRANIAN REGIME, BUT ITS FOREIGN MINISTER IS TRYING TO PROJECT A SENSE OF CALM.

TAKE A LISTEN.

>> FROM JANUARY 10 TO NOW, THE SITUATION ENTERED A NEW PHASE AND IT IS CURRENTLY UNDER CONTROL.

>> MEANWHILE, PRESIDENT TRUMP IS MULLING OVER MILITARY INTERVENTION IN IRAN.

LET'S BRING IN ABBAS MILANI, DIRECTOR OF IRANIAN STUDIES AT STANFORD AND AUTHOR OF THE "THE SHAH."

HE WAS HELD AS A POLITICAL PRISONER BY THE FORMER SHAH'S REGIME AND LEFT IRAN IN 1986.

ABBAS MILANI, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

YOU RIGHT IN A PIECE, YOU PUBLISHED JUST LAST WEEK, THAT THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC IS NOW A, QUOTE, HOLLOW SHELL FACING ITS GREATIST CRISIS SINCE 1979.

WE HAD A NUMBER OF EXPERTS SAY EXACTLY THAT.

AND LAY OUT THE DIFFERENCES IN TERMS OF WHY THIS CURRENT CRISIS IS MUCH MORE DIRE FOR THE REGIME THAN THOSE WE HAVE SEEN IN THE PAST FEW YEARS, THE MOST RECENT IN 2022.

AND THAT INCLUDES REGIONAL CHANGE, POST OCTOBER 7th CHANGE, OBVIOUSLY THE WEAKENING OF THE PROXIES, THE STRIKES ON IRAN'S NUCLEAR FACILITIES AND THE TRUMP FACTOR.

LAY OUT WHY IN YOUR VIEW THIS IS A MUCH MORE EXISTENTIAL THREAT FOR THE REGIME THAN PREVIOUS CRISES.

>> DESPOTISMS LIKE THE ISLAMIC REGIME SURVIVE ON FEAR.

AND SURVIVAL ON CREATING AN IMAGE OF THEMSELVES AS OMNIPOTENT, BOTH REGIONALLY AND DOMESTICALLY.

THAT FEAR HAS NOW DISSIPATED.

IRANIAN PEOPLE DON'T FEAR THIS BLOODY REGIME.

AND THE REGION AND THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY HAS ALSO RECOGNIZED THAT THIS IS A HOLLOWED REGIME.

ANYONE WHO HAD BEEN WATCHING THIS REGIME FOR THE PAST FEW YEARS WOULD HAVE KNOWN THAT THIS IS A HOLLOWING REGIME BECAUSE IT IS CORRUPT, BECAUSE IT IS RAPACIOUS, BECAUSE IT IS CRONYIST AND MR.

HOE KHAMENEI IS UNWILLING TO CHANGE.

HE WOULD HAVE KNOWN A YEAR AGO THAT THE GAME IS UP AND UNLESS THEY CHANGE THEY'RE SINKING.

NOW THEY'RE SINKING.

>> AND YOU ALSO ARGUE THAT THE REAL VULNERABILITY IS NOT ONLY ECONOMIC, BUT THAT OF LEGITIMACY AS WELL.

THIS IS A TOTALITARIAN REGIME THAT I HEARD ONE STATISTIC SAY HAS THE HIGHEST PER CAPITA EXECUTION RATE IN THE WORLD.

AND NOW YOU'RE SAYING THEY ARE LOSING THAT FEAR FACTOR OF LEGITIMACY, OF REPRESSION, FROM THEIR OWN POPULATION.

THIS AS MUCH OF THE COUNTRY IS IN THE DARK, BOTH ELECTRICITY, CELLULAR, INTERNET SERVICE, DESPITE SOME STARLINK AVAILABILITY, WHAT IS THE NEXT STEP?

BECAUSE WE HAVE SEEN WHERE THIS REPRESSION CAN STILL BE SUCCESSFUL AND THAT IS IN THE MASS MURDER OF THOSE THAT ARE PROTESTING ON THE STREETS.

>> I DON'T THINK REPRESSION CAN BE SUCCESSFUL.

AND, AGAIN, IF YOU LOOK AT THE PAST TEN YEARS, MR.

KHAMENEI AND HIS REGIME USED INCREASING VIOLENCE EVERY TIME THE PEOPLE OF IRAN ROSE UP TO SAY WE DO NOT WANT THESE POLICIES.

WE DO NOT WANT YOU AS A LEADER.

LOOK AT 2009, LOOK AT 2019, LOOK AT 2024, IN 2024 THEY KILLED UPWARD OF A THOUSAND MINIMUM.

THEY ARRESTED IN THEIR OWN NUMBERS 90,000.

TWO YEARS LATER, THEY HAVE THIS.

IF THEY HAVE SUPPRESSED THEIR WAY, IF THEY KILL THEIR WAY INTO SECURITY NOW, THEY WILL HAVE A BIGGER UPRISING LATER BECAUSE THE PROBLEM IS THAT THE INCOMPETENT INCOMPETENCE OF THE REGIME, THE PROBLEM IS THE INABILITY TO SOLVE IRAN'S PROBLEMS.

THEY HAVE QUIETED THE PEOPLE.

WHAT ARE THEY GOING TO DO WITH THE ECONOMY?

THE PRESIDENT OF IRAN DECLARED TWO WEEKS AGO THAT WE DON'T HAVE DOLLARS, AND WE HAVE NO WAY TO PAY OUR BASIC EXPENSES.

WHERE ARE THEY GOING TO GET THIS MONEY?

WHO IS GOING TO SUPPORT THEM?

THE EU JUST BANNED IRANIAN DIPLOMATS FROM ENTERING OFFICES OF THE EU PARLIAMENT.

I THINK EVERY GOVERNMENT IN THE WORLD MUST NOW FOLLOW SUIT.

THEY MUST TELL THIS REGIME YOU CANNOT KILL YOUR WAY OUT OF PEOPLE'S PEACEFUL DEMAND FOR CHANGE.

PEACEFUL DEMAND FOR DEMOCRACY.

AND I HAVE TO SAY THAT BREAKING THE FEAR FACTOR, WE OWE A GREAT DEAL TO IRANIAN WOMEN.

THEY FOUGHT FOR 44 YEARS INCREMENTALLY TO SHOW THE WORLD AND TO SHOW THIS MISOGYNOUS REGIME THAT THEY'RE NOT GOING TO BE SECOND CLASS CITIZENS.

THAT BROKE THE BACK OF THIS REGIME.

AND NOW THEY AND VIRTUALLY 90% OF IRANIAN SOCIETY SAYS NO TO THE STATUS QUO.

>> SO YOU HAVE THE FEARLESSNESS OF THE SOCIETY, AS YOU POINT OUT, SPECIFICALLY THE WOMEN.

AND AS I NOTED EARLIER THE TRUMP FACTOR OF IT ALL.

FOLLOWING THROUGH ON HIS THREAT TO TAKE OUT AND JOIN ISRAEL FOLLOWING THEIR 12-DAY WAR WITH IRAN AND STRIKING THEIR NUCLEAR FACILITIES, AND THEN DEPOSING THE HEAD OF VENEZUELA AS WELL, THE COUNTRY WITH IRAN HAVE LONG-STANDING RELATIONSHIPS GOING BACK MANY DECADES.

SO, WHAT ARE THE OPTIONS THAT YOU THINK WOULD BE BEST SUITED FOR THE UNITED STATES TO TAKE?

>> MY SENSE IS THE BEST OPTIONS ARE TO, AGAIN, ISOLATE THE REGIME DIPLOMATICALLY, FREEZE ALL OF THEIR ASSETS, FREEZE THE ASSETS OF THEIR OLIGARCHS, WHICH ARE SPREAD THROUGH CANADA, THE UNITED STATES, EUROPE, MALAYSIA, SINGAPORE.

FREEZE THEIR ASSETS.

CLOSE THE DIPLOMATIC OFFICES, WHICH ARE OFTEN CENTERS FOR TERRORIST ACTIVITIES, TELL THE IRANIAN REGIME THAT IT IS NO LONGER CONSIDERED VIABLE REPRESENTATIVE OF A GREAT CIVILIZATION THAT WANTS TO LEAVE PEACEFULLY.

IRAN HAS BEEN ONE OF THE CLOSEST ALLIES OF ISRAEL BEFORE THIS REGIME CAME.

THIS REGIME HAS MADE THE DESTRUCTION OF ISRAEL ITS STRATEGIC PREFERENCE.

WHY?

IRANIAN JEWS HAVE LIVED IN IRAN FOR 2500 YEARS.

IRAN HAD THE BIGGEST NUMBER OF JEWS LIVING IN IRAN IN 1979.

STILL IRAN HAS MORE JEWS LIVING IN IRAN THAN ANY MUSLIM COUNTRY.

WHY SHOULD IRAN'S INTERESTS BE THE DESTRUCTION OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL?

THIS IS THE IDIOCY THAT MR.

KHAMENEI AND HIS IDEOLOGUES HAVE FOLLOWED FOR 45 YEARS.

PUT IRAN ON A WAR PATH WITH ISRAEL FOR 45 YEARS.

THE SHAH OF IRAN DEFENDED THE RIGHT OF PALESTINIANS TO A STATE, BUT ALSO WAS A VERY CLOSE ALLY OF ISRAEL.

>> WHAT I HAVEN'T HEARD YOU MENTION IS THE MILITARY OPTION FOR THE UNITED STATES, WHICH THE PRESIDENT IS REPORTEDLY WEIGHING AS SOON AS TOMORROW.

HE IS SET TO MEET PER "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL" WITH HIS TOP MILITARY OFFICIALS TO DISCUSS SOME OF THE OPTIONS FOR THE U.S.

HERE'S WHAT HE SAID ON THIS SUBJECT OVER THE WEEKEND ON AIR FORCE ONE.

>> WE'RE LOOKING AT IT VERY SERIOUSLY.

THE MILITARY IS LOOKING AT IT.

AND WE'RE LOOKING AT SOME VERY STRONG OPTIONS.

I THINK THEY'RE TIRED OF BEING BEAT UP BY THE UNITED STATES.

IRAN WANTS TO NEGOTIATE, YES.

WE MAY MEET WITH THEM.

I MEAN, A MEETING IS BEING SET UP.

BUT WE MAY HAVE TO ACT BECAUSE OF WHAT'S HAPPENING BEFORE THE MEETING.

>> OKAY, SO IT IS TWO POINTS I WANT TO RAISE WITH YOU.

FIRST, THE PRESIDENT REALLY LAYING OUT A RED LINE LAST WEEK SAYING THAT IF THE IRANIAN REGIME TARGETS AND KILLS THOSE CIVILIAN PROTESTERS, THAT THE UNITED STATES IS LOCKED AND LOADED AND READY TO RESPOND.

IF HE DOESN'T THEN, WHAT MESSAGE DOES THAT SEND?

HAS HE BOXED HIMSELF IN AND THEN WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF POSSIBLE TALKS THAT AS WE HAVE GOTTEN MORE DETAILS INCLUDE THE FOREIGN MINISTER ACTUALLY REACHING OUT REPORTEDLY TO STEVE WITKOFF, THE PRESIDENT'S ENVOY?

>> AGAIN, IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO PREDICT WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP WILL DO.

I THINK THE IDEA OF NEGOTIATING WITH THIS REGIME AT THIS TIME IS FOLLY.

I KNOW ONE THING ABOUT PRESIDENT TRUMP, I THINK HE IS VERY WORRIED ABOUT HIS PLACE IN HISTORY.

IF HE WANTS TO GO DOWN IN HISTORY AS SOMEONE WHO MADE ABRAHAM ACCORDS POSSIBLE, YOU CANNOT THEN MAKE PEACE WITH THE REGIME THAT HAS BEEN THE MOST SERIOUS ENEMY OF THE ABRAHAM ACCORD.

NO COUNTRY IN THE MIDDLE EAST HAS WORKED MORE AGAINST THE ABRAHAM ACCORD THAN THE MULLAHS IN IRAN.

THE IDEA WHEN THE MULLAHS ARE ON THE ROPES, YOU ARE GOING TO NEGOTIATE WITH THEM AND GIVE THEM A LIFELINE TO ME SEEMS CONTRARY TO EVERYTHING MR.

TRUMP SAID IN THE PAST, AND I AM FOR NEGOTIATION, I'VE ALWAYS BEEN FOR NEGOTIATION, BUT RIGHT NOW THE NEGOTIATION SHOULD BE ABOUT HOW TO EASE THIS REGIME OUT OF POWER.

REMEMBER, THIS REGIME CAME TO POWER WITH THE HELP OF THE UNITED STATES DURING JIMMY CARTER'S TIME.

THE UNITED STATES HELPED THIS REGIME BY ESSENTIALLY TELLING THE MILITARY NOT TO INTERVENE UNDER SHAH'S BEHALF.

NOW, THIS REGIME WANTS TO USE THE UNITED STATES AGAIN TO STAY IN POWER.

THE SAME MISTAKE OF THE PAST, I THINK, I HOPE, SHOULDN'T BE MADE NOW.

>> YOU WROTE THAT WESTERN GOVERNMENTS WERE MISREAD AS AYATOLLAH KHAMENEI AS A STABILIZING FORCE IN THE LATE '70s.

I INTERVIEWED AN AUTHOR OF A PIECE THAT RECEIVED A LOT OF COVERAGE OVER THE WEEKEND AS WELL, AND WHAT HE TOLD ME IS THAT HE THINKS THAT FOLLOWING, OF COURSE, THE SUPREME LEADER, HIS REMOVAL OR HIS --HOWEVER THAT ENDS, FOLLOWING HIS LEADERSHIP, HE THINKS THERE IS ROOM FOR A DEAL WITH THE REVOLUTIONARY GUARD.

AND SOME SORT OF CIVILIAN SECULAR LEADERS TO REMOVE THE CLERICAL LEADERSHIP IN EXCHANGE FOR AT LEAST A TEMPORARY STABILIZING LEADERSHIP FROM THESE FORCES.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT IDEA?

>> I THINK THAT'S A POSSIBLE IDEA.

BUT I THINK IF THEY WANT PEACE, THEY CANNOT HAVE ANY SEMBLANCE OF THE CURRENT REGIME.

AND I THINK IF THAT COALITION IS FORMED IN IRAN, THEY CANNOT IGNORE THE IRANIAN DIASPORA.

THE IRANIAN DIASPORA IS ABSOLUTELY INDISPENSABLE FOR SAVING IRAN OUT OF THIS MORASS.

AND UNLESS THEY ARE INCLUDED IN THIS GRAND COALITION, AND POLITICAL SCIENCE THEY CALL IT A PATH TO TRANSITION, I HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT PATH TO TRANSITION FOR IRAN FOR 40 YEARS AND I SAID THAT IS AN IDEAL WAY TO MOVE FORWARD.

BUT NOW WITH VERY INCREASELY ORGANIZED DIASPORA, WITH THE POWER THAT THE CROWN PRINCE HAS, THE POLITICAL CAPITAL ACCRUED TO HIS NAME AND HIS FAMILY'S NAME, INCLUSIVE PATH, AN INCLUSIVE PATH THAT INCLUDES EVERYONE WHO WANTS DEMOCRATIC, SECULAR IRAN IS, I THINK, VERY MUCH IN THE REALM OF POSSIBILITIES.

>> IN THE FINAL FEW SECONDS HERE, HOW CRITICAL IS IT FOR THE U.S., FOR WESTERN COMPANIES AND COUNTRIES, ANY SORT OF TECHNOLOGICAL WHEREWITHAL TO LIFT THIS INFORMATION BLANKET ON THE COUNTRY AND EXPOSE THROUGH THE INTERNET, THROUGH ACCESS WHAT IS GOING ON ON THE STREETS?

>> I THINK IT IS ABSOLUTELY INDISPENSABLE.

I HOPE THEY DO IT.

I HOPE STARLINK IS AVAILABLE.

I HOPE OTHER TECHNOLOGIES THAT I KNOW ARE AVAILABLE IS MADE AVAILABLE BY SILICON VALLEY TO HELP IRAN FROM THIS NEW PRISON THAT THE IRANIAN REGIME HAS CREATED AROUND THIS.

IT IS A WAR CRIME.

IT IS A WAR CRIME TO DENY PEOPLE ACCESS TO TELEPHONE.

DOMESTIC LINES OF TELEPHONE ARE SHUT DOWN.

AND AT THIS MOMENT, THE SHAMELESS FOREIGN MINISTER OF IRAN TAKES EUROPEAN AMBASSADORS AND TELLS THEM ALL IS QUIET ON THE IRANIAN FRONT.

IT ISN'T.

>> THE DEATH TOLL CONTINUES TO RISE.

ABBAS MILANI, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME AND FOR YOUR THOUGHTS ON THIS.

WE APPRECIATE IT.

>> MY PLEASURE.

>> WELL, ALARM BELLS ARE RINGING ON WALL STREET AND IN WASHINGTON AFTER FEDERAL PROSECUTORS OPENED UP A CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION OF FED CHAIR JEROME POWELL AND THE CENTRAL BANK.

AFTER THE NEWS BROKE, POWELL LOOKED AT THE CAMERA AND TOLD THE WORLD THAT TRUMP IS THREATENING HIM FOR NOT DOING WHAT THE PRESIDENT WANTED ON INTEREST RATES.

>> THE THREAT OF CRIMINAL CHARGES IS A CONSEQUENCE OF THE FEDERAL RESERVE SETTING INTEREST RATES BASED ON OUR BEST ASSESSMENT OF WHAT WILL SERVE THE PUBLIC.

RATHER THAN FOLLOWING THE PREFERENCES OF THE PRESIDENT.

THIS IS ABOUT WHETHER THE FED WILL BE ABLE TO CONTINUE TO SET INTEREST RATES BASED ON EVIDENCE AND ECONOMIC CONDITIONS OR WHETHER INSTEAD MONETARY POLICY WILL BE DIRECTED BY POLITICAL PRESSURE OR INTIMIDATION.

>> THE INDEPENDENCE OF THE FEDERAL RESERVE IS A BEDROCK PRINCIPLE OF U.S.

ECONOMIC POLICY.

AND THE DOJ'S ACTIONS APPEAR TO BE THE LATEST IN A STRING OF MOVES AGAINST THE PRESIDENT'S PERCEIVED ENEMIES.

HERE TO DISCUSS IS FORMER CONGRESSIONAL BUDGET OFFICE DIRECTOR DOUGLAS HOLTZ- EAKIN.

IT IS GOOD TO SEE YOU.

AS I SAID TO MY LAST GUEST, I THINK WE OVEREXHAUSTED THE TERM UNPRECEDENTED, BUT IT IS APT IN THIS CASE.

A CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION OF A SITTING FED CHAIR, I GUESS MAYBE THE WRITING COULD HAVE BEEN ON THE WALL, AND IT IS STILL A STUNNING HEADLINE TO READ.

FROM AN ECONOMIC AND INSTITUTIONAL STANDPOINT, BECAUSE I KNOW THERE ARE A LOT OF LEGAL EXPERTS AND, BY THE WAY, WE SHOULD NOTE THAT JAY POWELL ALSO IS A TRAINED LAWYER, THERE APPEARS TO BE NO LEGAL STANDING FOR THIS CASE.

BUT JUST THE HEADLINE ITSELF AND THE ECONOMIC DAMAGE THAT SOMETHING LIKE THIS COULD DO FOR THE GOLD STANDARD OF THE UNITED STATES AROUND THE WORLD, WHAT IS THAT?

HOW ALARMING IS THAT TO YOU?

>> IT IS TREMENDOUSLY ALARMING.

YOU KNOW, THE FED'S INDEPENDENCE IS AS YOU MENTIONED A BEDROCK PRINCIPLE OF U.S.

ECONOMIC POLICY.

IT IS ONE OF THE THINGS ON WHICH THE STRONG DOLLAR JUST SERVED AS A RESERVE CURRENCY IS BUILT.

AND INVESTORS, LACK OF CONFIDENCE IN THE STABILITY OF THE DOLLAR WOULD LEAD THEM TO SHY AWAY FROM TREASURIES.

THAT'S BAD FOR U.S.

INTEREST RATES.

THAT'S BAD FOR THE PACE OF GLOBAL TRADE, BAD FOR THE GLOBAL ECONOMY.

SO, THIS ISN'T A MINOR SKIRMISH OF A POLITICAL NATURE OFF ON THE SIDE, THIS IS AT THE CENTERPIECE OF GLOBAL FINANCIAL MARKETS AND CENTRAL TO THE OPERATION OF THINGS AS THEY ARE NOW CONFIGURED.

>> LET ME PICK UP ON THAT THE LAST LINE THAT WE HEARD FROM POWELL IN THE VIDEO WHERE HE SAYS THIS IS ABOUT WHETHER THE FED WILL BE ABLE TO CONTINUE TO SET INTEREST RATES BASED ON EVIDENCE AND ECONOMIC CONDITIONS OR WHETHER INSTEAD MONETARY POLICY WILL BE DIRECTED BY POLITICAL PRESSURE OR INTIMIDATION.

EXPLAIN WHAT HAPPENS TO A COUNTRY, TO AN ECONOMY WHEN THE LATTER HAPPENS.

BECAUSE THAT'S SOMETHING THAT WE HAVE ACTUALLY SEEN PLAY OUT IN REAL LIFE.

IT IS NOT A HYPOTHETICAL.

>> WE HAVE SEEN THIS IN ARGENTINA.

WITH THE TAKEOVER OF THE CENTRAL BANK, THE ISSUING OF MONEY FOR POLITICAL PURPOSES AND TIMING, WE HAVE SEEN IT IN TURKEY WHERE ERDOGAN HAS HALVED THE CENTRAL BANK, THERE IS TREMENDOUS AMOUNTS OF INFLATION, PARDON ME, ENORMOUS AMOUNTS OF POOR ECONOMIC PERFORMANCE AND NOT A HYPOTHETICAL FOR THE UNITED STATES.

IT WASN'T THAT LONG AGO, THE 1970s, THAT PRESIDENT RICHARD NIXON COWED ARTHUR BURNS AND BURNS OPERATED MONETARY POLICY FOR THE PURPOSES OF NIXON'S RE-ELECTION.

WE SAW SUSTAINED HIGH INFLATION, SUSTAINED HIGH UNEMPLOYMENT IN THE '70s AND MOST OF THE EFFORTS OF THE FEDERAL RESERVE SINCE HAVE BEEN TO AVOID THAT KIND OF A SITUATION.

>> LET'S REMIND OUR VIEWERS HOW THIS PARTICULAR HEADLINE AND NARRATIVE CAME ABOUT AND THAT WAS WHEN THE PRESIDENT REALLY AS HE HAS BEEN EXPRESSING HIS FRUSTRATION WITH JAY POWELL FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS NOW HONED IN ON THE COST OF RENOVATING THE FEDERAL RESERVE BUILDING ITSELF.

THERE IS VIDEO FROM I BELIEVE OVER THE SUMMER WHERE THE TWO MEN IN HARD HATS WERE TOURING THE FACILITY, AND THE PRESIDENT TOOK OUT A SHEET OF PAPER WHERE HE TALKED ABOUT HOW THE EXPENSES AND PROJECTED COSTS HAVE JUST INCREASED SIGNIFICANTLY.

YOU SEE POWELL THEN CONFRONT HIM SAYING THOSE NUMBERS ARE JUST WRONG.

FIRST OF ALL, FEDERAL PROJECTS INCLUDING THE PRESIDENT'S AND YOU'RE LOOKING AT THE RENOVATION OF THE WHITE HOUSE RIGHT NOW, THE BALLROOM, THEY ROUTINELY GO OVER BUDGET.

BUT JUST THAT THIS ALONE IS WHAT JAY POWELL DESCRIBES AS A PRETEXT FOR THIS ALL, WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF IT?

>> LOOK, IF COST OVERRUNS WERE A CRIMINAL OFFENSE, MOST OF WASHINGTON, D.C.

WOULD BE IN JAIL.

THAT'S THE BLUNT REALITY OF IT.

AND THIS IS NOT THAT.

WHAT THE PRESIDENT DID WAS, YOU KNOW, PUT ON A SHOW TO TRY TO INTIMIDATE POWELL, HE USED THE WRONG NUMBERS, GAVE THE COST OF RENOVATING THREE BUILDINGS, NOT TWO, CERTAINLY IF YOU'RE GOING TO RENOVATE TWO HISTORIC BUILDINGS THAT ARE ADJACENT TO THE WASHINGTON MALL, AND ARE BUILT ON TOP OF SOME HIGHLY QUESTIONABLE ASBESTOS FOUNDATIONS, IT IS GOING TO COST A LOT OF MONEY.

WE KNOW THAT.

THESE ARE HISTORIC BUILDINGS.

NO ONE BELIEVES THERE IS ANY SUBSTANCE.

THE QUESTION WAS, COULD THEY FIND A WAY TO GET POWELL TO DO THEIR BIDDING?

THEY HAVE NOT FOUND A WAY.

THEY HAVE NOW DECIDED TO TRY TO REMOVE HIM ONE WAY OR ANOTHER.

THEY HAVE COME TO THE CONCLUSION THE PRESIDENT CAN'T FIRE THE CHAIRMAN OF THE FEDERAL RESERVE.

SO THEY STOPPED THAT, CALLS FOR THAT.

AND THEY'RE TRYING TO GET THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE TO REMOVE HIM ON THEIR BEHALF.

SO, NONE OF THAT IS HONORABLE AND NONE OF IT IS SOMETHING THAT SHOULD EVER HAPPEN.

THERE ARE TWO REAL GREAT FALLOUTS OF THIS, NUMBER ONE IS THE IMPACT ON THE FEDERAL RESERVE'S POLICIES, THE PERCEPTION OF THE GLOBAL CAPITAL MARKETS AND GLOBAL AND U.S.

ECONOMIC PERFORMANCE.

THE SECOND IS THE FUTURE OF THE FED.

WHICH HAS BEEN DAMAGED ALREADY BY THE PRESIDENT'S ACTIONS.

AND THIS WILL DAMAGE IT FURTHER.

>> YEAH, I BELIEVE JANET YELLEN THIS MORNING RESPONDED BY SAYING WE'RE SORT OF ON THE PRECIPICE OF BANANA REPUBLIC TERRITORY HERE.

DO YOU AGREE?

>> YES.

THIS IS -- THIS IS WHAT YOU SEE WHEN THE RULE OF LAW IS SIMPLY DISCARDED AND YOU USE THE RULE OF THE AUTHORITARIAN.

THAT'S WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO DO HERE.

HE'S TRYING TO INTIMIDATE JEROME POWELL INTO GOING AWAY.

AND THERE IS SOME FIREWALLS HERE I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT FOR LISTENERS TO KNOW ABOUT.

ONE FIREWALL IS GLOBAL CAPITAL MARKETS.

IT IS NOT IN THE PRESIDENT'S INTEREST TO HAVE LONG-TERM INTEREST RATES IN THE UNITED STATES.

IF MARKETS REACT POORLY, HE HAS A PROBLEM.

THE U.S.

SENATE HAS TO CONFIRM ANYONE HE MIGHT CHOOSE TO REPLACE POWELL.

HE COULD LOSE THE VOTES IN THE SENATE TO GET THAT DONE AND THEN IT IS AN EMPIRIC VICTORY.

THE THIRD AND MOST IMPORTANT ONE IS POWELL HIMSELF.

POWELL CAN STAY AT THE FEDERAL RESERVE THROUGH 2028.

>> ON THE BOARD.

>> HE'S ON THE BOARD.

>> YEAH.

HIS TENURE AS FED CHAIR ENDS IN MAY.

AND HE HAD BEEN EXPECTED TO JUST LEAVE THE FED IN TOTAL.

BUT THIS MAY ACTUALLY KEEP HIM ON THE BOARD LONGER FOR THIS VERY REASON TO SEE ANY SORT OF ATTEMPT TO MAINTAIN THE FED'S INDEPENDENCE.

CAN I ASK YOU QUICKLY ON A SEPARATE NOTE, TO WEIGH IN ON THE PRESIDENT REPUBLICAN FLOATING A ONE-YEAR 10% CAP ON CREDIT CARD INTEREST PAYMENTS AND HOUSING BY BOOSTING LARGE INVESTORS FROM BUYING FROM --FROM BOOTING LARGE INVESTORS FROM BUYING SINGLE FAMILY HOMES WHILE ALSO TALKING ABOUT BUYING $200 BILLION IN MORTGAGE BONDS TO LOWER COSTS.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT POLICY?

>> ALL THREE OF THOSE LOOKED LIKE THE PANICKED MOVES OF A PRESIDENT WHOSE PARTY IS UP FOR RE- ELECTION AND IS IN TROUBLE.

NONE OF THOSE BY THEMSELVES MAKE ANY SENSE WHATSOEVER.

SOME ARE INCREDIBLY COUNTERPRODUCTIVE.

THE 10% INTEREST RATE CAP WILL SIMPLY ELIMINATE ACCESS TO CREDIT CARDS FOR THE LOW INCOME RISKIER BORROWERS HE'S TRYING TO HELP.

SO, THESE ARE COUNTERPRODUCTIVE, SORT OF PUBLICITY-SEEKING EFFORTS THAT ALLOW A POLITICIAN TO SAY, I'M ON YOUR SIDE, BUT WHEN PUSH COMES TO SHOVE, DON'T MAKE THINGS BETTER.

>> YEAH.

I BELIEVE ON YOUR BLOG YOU DESCRIBED IT AS BAD POLICY WITH SUPERFICIAL POLITICAL APPEAL.

DOUGLAS HOLTZ-EAKIN, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

GOOD TO SEE YOU.

COME BACK.

>> TAKE CARE.

>>> ALL RIGHT, WELL, NEXT TO AN ACCLAIMED NOVEL THAT EXPLORES THEMES OF AGING, PRIVILEGE, PARENTHOOD AND MORE.

"THE REST OF OUR LIVES" WAS SHORT LISTED FOR THE BOOKER PRIZE AND IT TELLS THE STORY OF TOM, A LAW PROFESSOR WHO DROPS HIS DAUGHTER OFF AT COLLEGE AND JUST KEEPS DRIVING WEST.

HE VISITS FAMILY AND OLD FLAMES AND STEWS ON THE PAST WHILE TRYING TO IGNORE HIS INCREASINGLY ALARMING HEALTH ISSUES.

BRITISH AMERICAN BEN MARKOVITS IS THE AUTHOR OF THE BOOK AND JOINS THE PROGRAM FROM NONE OTHER THAN NASHVILLE BOOK SHOP OWNED BY AWARD WINNING WRITER ANN PATCHETT.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

CONGRATULATIONS ON THE BOOK.

I READ IT, I BELIEVE IN A DAY AND A HALF.

MY STEPDAUGHTER, WE ALL READ IT ON VACATION AND IT IS A PAGE TURNER.

CAN'T PUT IT DOWN.

SO, BRAVO TO YOU ON WRITING A GREAT BOOK.

AS I LAID OUT, IT IS A STORY OF A MIDDLE AGED DAD OF TWO, CURRENTLY SUSPENDED COLLEGE PROFESSOR, AN UNHAPPY RELATIONSHIP, WHICH HE SAYS DATES BACK TO AN AFFAIR THAT HIS WIFE HAD, QUOTE, WHEN OUR SON WAS 12 YEARS OLD, MY WIFE HAD AN AFFAIR WITH A GUY CALLED ZACH, WE LEARNED A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT ZACH AND HOW MEDIOCRE HE WAS AND NONETHELESS HAD AN AFFAIR WITH TOM'S WIFE, AND THEN YOU DECIDE TO SET A DEAL, OR TOM DECIDES TO SET A DEAL FOR HIMSELF, WHICH HE FOLLOWS, WHICH HE DISCUSSES IN THE FOLLOWING PASSAGE WHICH I BELIEVE YOU'RE GOING TO READ FOR US.

>> YES, SHOULD I READ THAT NOW?

>> YES, PLEASE.

>> ALL RIGHT.

YOU FALL IN LOVE WITH SOMEBODY WHEN YOU'RE 26.

AND YOU SEE THEM IN ALL KINDS OF DIFFERENT LIGHTS AND ACCORDING TO THEIR POTENTIAL.

BUT AFTER YEARS AND YEARS OF MARRIAGE AND SHARED PARENTING AND ALL THE OTHER SHARED DECISIONS YOU HAVE TO MAKE JUST TO GET THROUGH THE DAYS, YOU ACCUMULATE A LOT OF DATA ABOUT THAT PERSON THAT AFTER A WHILE JUST SEEMS MORE OR LESS ACCURATE.

IF YOU CONTINUE TO HAVE ILLUSIONS, THAT'S YOUR FAULT.

SO IF YOU STAY MARRIED, IT IS BECAUSE YOU'VE ACCEPTED THAT THIS IS WHAT THEY'RE LIKE, AND WHAT YOUR LIFE WITH THEM IS LIKE, AND YOU STOP EXPECTING THEM TO DO OR GIVE YOU THINGS YOU KNOW PERFECTLY WELL THEY'RE UNLIKELY TO DO OR GIVE YOU.

IT IS LIKE BEING A KNICKS FAN.

BUT I ALSO MADE A DEAL WITH MYSELF.

WHEN MERRIAM GOES TO COLLEGE, YOU CAN LEAVE TOO.

>> MERRIAM IS TOM'S DAUGHTER.

TELL US ABOUT THE PREMISE OF THE BOOK AND WHAT DREW YOU TO WRITE THIS STORY.

>> I WAS INTERESTED IN A STORY OF A GUY WHO ISN'T THE ONE WHO HAS DONE ANYTHING WRONG.

AND I WANTED TO EXPLORE HOW THAT WOULD PLAY OUT IN THEIR MARRIAGE AND MAYBE GET HIM TO CONFRONT THE POSSIBILITY THAT HIS SENSE THAT HE HASN'T DONE ANYTHING WRONG IS PART OF THE PROBLEM.

>> HE'S ALSO A BIT OF A PASSIVE MAN AS WELL, HE HASN'T DONE ANYTHING WRONG, HE WASN'T THE ONE WHO STARTED THE AFFAIR.

AND YOU SENSE THE FRUSTRATION IN HIS WIFE AND THOSE AROUND HIM BY NOT BEING MORE EMOTIONAL, BY NOT BEING AND EXPRESSING MORE OF HIS OPINIONS AND OBJECTIONS.

WHY DESCRIBE HIM THAT WAY?

>> IT SEEMED AN INTERESTING KIND OF MALE PROBLEM TO DEAL WITH, THE ONE WHO DOESN'T GET ANGRY ENOUGH, DOESN'T INTERVENE ENOUGH, AND I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS HE COMES TO REALIZE IS THAT YOU HAVE TO BE WILLING TO GET ANGRY, EVEN IF IT PUTS YOU IN THE WRONG, JUST TO DEAL WITH THE PROBLEMS THAT OTHERWISE GET SWEPT UNDER THE CARPET.

>> AND/OR IN THE PASSENGER SEAT OF A CAR, IN THIS SENSE, BECAUSE SO MUCH OF THIS BOOK TAKES PLACE AS TOM IS ON A ROAD TRIP AFTER DROPPING HIS DAUGHTER OFF AS WE NOTED IN COLLEGE AND NOT RETURNING HOME, I BELIEVE TO NEW JERSEY, RIGHT, BUT INSTEAD HEADING OUT WEST.

TELL US ABOUT THIS, YOU KNOW, FOR A READER, IT DID FEEL ALMOST LIKE A CONFESSIONAL OR AS IF WE WERE EITHER A PASSENGER IN THE CAR ALONGSIDE TOM.

WAS THAT YOUR INTENT?

>> YEAH.

YES.

I ALWAYS WANT TO MAKE THE PROSE SOUND LIKE THE THING YOU CAN SAY AS OPPOSED TO WRITE.

IF YOU WERE TO GET INTO A PERSONALITY LIKE TOM'S TO HAVE HIS CONVERSATION WITH YOU WAS PROBABLY THE BEST WAY TO DO IT.

ONE THING I REALIZED AS I WAS WRITING THE BOOK IS SOMETHING THAT I DO MYSELF, I DON'T KNOW IF YOU DO IT, BUT WHEN YOU HAVE AN ARGUMENT WITH SOMEBODY, EVEN WHEN YOU'RE NOT IN THE PRESENCE, YOU OFTEN KEEP UP THE CONVERSATION, AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HAPPENS TO HIM IS HE DRIVES WEST, THE FURTHER AWAY HE GETS FROM HIS WIFE, THE MORE HE KEEPS TALKING TO HER IN HIS HEAD AND TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT WENT WRONG IN THEIR MARRIAGE AND MAYBE EVEN WHAT HE CAN DO TO FIX IT.

SO THAT EVEN THOUGH THE PREMISE OF THE BOOK IS THAT IT IS A KIND OF RUNNING AWAY FROM YOUR WIFE STORY, IT IS ALSO, I HOPE, A LOVE STORY, I HOPE THAT COMES ACROSS Y THE END.

>> YES, OF COURSE.

EVEN AMONG OUR PRODUCERS THERE WERE DIFFERING VIEWS ON AMY, HIS WIFE AND WHETHER WE WERE MORE SYMPATHETIC TO HER OR NOT.

I WAS MORE THE LATTER, I HAVE TO SAY.

I WAS NOT SYMPATHETIC TO AMY.

I WAS MORE OF A FAN OF TOM'S.

AND I APPRECIATED THAT HE STARTED TO OPEN UP AND TO GIVE PAUSE TO PERHAPS HIS PAST BEHAVIOR, AT LEAST BY NOT EXPRESSING IT ENOUGH, AS HE'S DRIVING LITERALLY AWAY FURTHER AND FURTHER FROM HIS LIFE BACK HOME.

IT IS ALSO A BIT OF A STORY ABOUT POLITICAL CORRECTNESS.

YOU TOUCH ON IT.

THIS IS A MIDDLE AGED WHITE MAN WHO IS CURRENTLY SUSPENDED FROM HIS JOB AS A LAW PROFESSOR AFTER ADVISING ON A CASE AGAINST AN NBA PLAYER --AN NBA TEAM OWNER WHO ALLEGEDLY MADE RACIST ALLEGATIONS.

WHERE DID THAT --WHERE DID THAT POINT COME FROM?

IT WASN'T NECESSARY.

>> THE NBA THING?

>> NO, NOT THE NBA.

I KNOW YOU WERE A BASKETBALL PLAYER TOO.

BUT JUST SORT OF WHITE MIDDLE AGED MAN, WHO I KNOW TOM'S DAUGHTER MARY CHANTS ANGRY WHITE MALE, THAT COMES UP TOO, BUT IT SEEMS AS IT IS TOLD FROM A PERSPECTIVE WE DON'T HEAR MUCH ABOUT AND THAT'S A MIDDLE AGED WHITE MALE.

>> I GUESS I FIGURED IF YOU TAKE A GUY LIKE THAT AND SEND HIM OFF ACROSS THE COUNTRY, WHAT IS HE GOING TO TALK ABOUT TO HIS OLD COLLEGE BUDDIES AND EX-GIRLFRIENDS AS HE VISITS WITH THEM?

AND IT OCCURRED TO ME PROBABLY HE WOULD WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE WAY THE CULTURE LEFT HIM BEHIND.

I DON'T THINK THE CULTURE HAS LEFT HIM BEHIND OR HE'S JUSTIFIED IN THOSE THOUGHTS, BUT HE GETS IN AN ARGUMENT EARLY ON IN THE BOOK WITH HIS SON WHO BASICALLY TELLS HIM MORE OR LESS, LOOK, I DON'T WANT TO HEAR ABOUT YOUR SEX PROBLEMS, DAD, WHICH IS TOTALLY FAIR.

I DON'T WANT TO HEAR YOUR POLITICAL OPINIONS, BECAUSE I THINK, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE A BIT OF A DINOSAUR AND I ALSO DON'T WANT TO HEAR YOUR PRIVILEGED COMPLAINTS ABOUT LIFE.

AND ALL THESE ARGUMENTS SEEM TOTALLY REASONABLE TO ME FROM THE POINT OF VIEW OF THE SON, BUT TOM SAYS TO HIM, IN RESPONSE, YOU KNOW, WHEN HIS SON SAYS WHY ARE YOU TELLING ME THIS STUFF, AND TOM SAYS, LOOK, I'M NOT YET READY TO LEAD A TOTALLY SECRET LIFE AND I THINK THE DANGER OF HIS POSITION IS THAT INCREASINGLY HE'S SOMEBODY WHO IS GOING TO FEEL THAT NOBODY REALLY WANTS TO HEAR FROM ME AND THAT FORCES HIM TO LEAD A SECRET LIFE.

AND I WANTED TO SHOW THAT THAT'S, YOU KNOW, THERE IS SOMETHING RIGHT IN HIM TO RESIST THAT, EVEN IF IT RISKS HIM GETTING INTO TROUBLE.

>> THAT WAS, I THOUGHT, REALLY SORT OF A POWERFUL AND PAINFUL REVELATION THAT YOU EXPOSED FROM TOM AND HIS RELATIONSHIPS, EVEN WITH HIS CLOSEST NEAREST AND DEAREST, HIS CHILDREN, HIS WIFE, HE NEVER FELT CLOSE ENOUGH TO GO THAT DEEP.

AND WHEN HE ATTEMPTED, YOU KNOW, HE WAS TOLD, YOU KNOW TORK, TO HIS FACE, I DON'T WANT TO BE TALKING ABOUT THIS.

YOU MENTIONED HIS TOM.

WHERE I GOT FRUSTRATED WITH TOM IS NOT TAKING HIS HEALTH SERIOUSLY ENOUGH.

AND THAT'S WHERE HIS SON, KUDOS TO HIM FOR FOCUSING ON TO SAY YOU NEED TO GO TO THE DOCTOR, SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH YOU.

AS YOU STARTED WRITING THE BOOK, YOU STARTED EXPERIENCING SOME OF THE SAME SYMPTOMS AS WELL.

BREATHLESSNESS, PUFFY FACE, BROKEN VEINS, TOM JUST DISMISSES IT AS, YOU KNOW, COVID, LONG COVID.

CAN YOU TALK ABOUT THE SIMILARITIES BETWEEN WHAT YOU WERE GOING THROUGH ULTIMATELY DIAGNOSED WITH CANCER AND WHAT TOM'S EXPERIENCING?

>> YEAH, I MEAN, I GAVE HIM THE SYMPTOMS EARLY ON IN THE WRITING PROCESS.

I THOUGHT IT WAS PART OF THE GENERAL PICTURE OF A GUY WHO FEELS LIKE THINGS ARE BREAKING DOWN IN HIS LIFE AND HE CAN'T QUITE UNDERSTAND WHY.

AND THEN AS I KEPT WRITING, I GOT SICKER AND SICKER TOO.

AND BY THE END OF THE FIRST DRAFT I WAS GOING THROUGH CHEMO.

AND I WANT TO SAY IN TOM'S DEFENSE, IT TURNS OUT WHAT WE HAD WAS A HARD THING TO DIAGNOSE.

TOM KEPT SAYING, I WENT TO THE DOCTOR, HE THOUGHT IT WAS LONG COVID.

THE TRUTH IS I WENT TO THE DOCTOR AND THEY THOUGHT IT WAS LONG COVID.

AND I WANTED TO WRITE ALSO AS I WAS GETTING SICK, I HAD THIS SENSE OF A PHYSICAL ALARM BELL RINGING, SOMETHING TELLING ME THAT THERE IS SOMETHING GOING WRONG IN YOUR LIFE AND YOU HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT.

AND I THINK I DEALT WITH IT A LITTLE BIT MORE PROMPTLY THAN TOM, BUT THAT ALARM BELL SEEMS LIKE AN INTERESTING THING TO WRITE ABOUT, EVEN IF IT LED ME SOMEWHERE I DIDN'T WANT TO GO.

>> YEAH.

YOU ALSO --AS YOU MENTIONED THAT THIS IS SORT OF A LOVE STORY TOO, BETWEEN TOM AND AMY, I DON'T WANT TO GIVE UP AND GIVE OUT TOO MUCH OF THE BOOK, BUT WE ARE LEFT SORT OF, YOU KNOW, WONDERING WHERE THINGS END WITH TOM.

BOTH HEALTH-WISE AND IN HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH AMY.

I --THAT WAS INTENTIONAL ON YOUR PART.

ARE YOU MORE OF AN OPTIMIST?

ARE YOU -- EVEN MY FAMILY MEMBERS AND I WERE DISCUSSING WHAT DO YOU THINK HAPPENED.

WOULD YOU LIKE READERS TO WALK AWAY MORE ON AN OPTIMISTIC NOTE?

>> YEAH, I HOPE SO.

I MEAN, ALSO I WANTED TO LEAVE IT HANGING BECAUSE I THOUGHT IF I MADE IT TOO CONCLUSIVE ONE WAY OR THE OTHER, IT WOULD SEEM SENTIMENTAL AND MORE DEPRESSING.

THE CHANCE OF THINGS TURNING OUT OKAY MIGHT IN THE END BE MORE OPTIMISTIC THAN THE CERTAINTY.

>> AGAIN, SIMILARITIES BETWEEN YOU AND TOM PLAYING BASKETBALL IS ONE OF THEM.

AND I BELIEVE WE HAVE SOME VIDEO OF YOU WHEN YOU PLAYED SEMI-PRO IN GERMANY.

>> YEAH.

>> THIS WAS YOUR SUBMISSION VIDEO OF YOU PLAYING BASKETBALL.

WHEN YOU'RE NOT IN A CAR, WHEN TOM --WHEN YOU'RE NOT IN THE CAR WITH TOM IN THIS BOOK, YOU'RE WITH HIM AS HE'S ON A BASKETBALL COURT SOMEWHERE.

BRIEFLY, CAN YOU TELL US WHAT YOU'RE WORKING ON NEXT, BEN?

I WANT TO WRITE A NOVEL ABOUT THE OTHER STAGE OF LIFE, THE BEGINNING, WHEN YOU START FALLING IN LOVE WITH PEOPLE AND IT IS TOLD FROM THE WOMAN'S POINT OF VIEW, IT IS A KIND OF LOVE STORY SET AMONG THE ACADEMIC CLASSES.

>> WE CAN'T WAIT TO READ THAT.

AGAIN, IN OUR MORNING MEETING, THIS MORNING, ONE OF OUR PRODUCERS SAID I WOULD HAVE LOVED TO HAVE HEARD THIS STORY FROM AMY'S PERSPECTIVE.

MAYBE WE'LL GET A CHANCE TO DO JUST THAT OR SOMETHING SIMILAR.

BEN MARKOVITS, CONGRATULATIONS ON THE BOOK.

IT IS A GREAT READ.

I HOPE YOU'LL PICK ONE UP, A COPY UP.

APPRECIATE THE TIME.

>>> NOW, IT HAS BEEN A YEAR SINCE A SERIES OF DEADLY FIRES TORE THROUGH SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA, WHICH LEFT NEARLY 80 SQUARE MILES BURNED, FORCED TENS OF THOUSANDS TO FLEE THEIR HOMES, AND CLAIMED THE LIVES OF AT LEAST 31 PEOPLE.

MANY GATHERED AT AN EMOTIONAL VIGIL LAST WEEK, MOURNING THOSE THAT HAD DIED AND THE NEIGHBORHOODS THAT HAD BEEN LOST.

MORE THAN SEVEN IN TEN OF ALTADENA RESIDENTS ARE STILL DISPLACED AS REBUILDING DESTROYED HOMES HAS PROVEN TO BE CHALLENGING.

SHAWN HUBLER IS THE LOS ANGELES BUREAU CHIEF FOR "THE NEW YORK TIMES" AND SHE JOINS HARI SREENIVASAN TO TAKE STOCK OF THE PROGRESS SO FAR.

>> THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

UNFORTUNATELY IT HAS BECOME STANDARD NOW FOR PEOPLE TO HEAR ABOUT ESSENTIALLY FIRE SEASON IN CALIFORNIA.

AND EVERY YEAR YOU'LL SEE SOME HEADLINES AND SO FORTH.

HERE WE ARE, A YEAR AFTER SOME OF THE BIGGEST FIRES, BUT HELP OUR AUDIENCE PUT IN PERSPECTIVE WHAT HAPPENED LAST YEAR WITH THE EATON FIRE AND THE PALISADES FIRE, HOW SIGNIFICANT WERE THEY?

>> IN A LOT OF WAYS IT WAS KIND OF A PERFECT STORM WHAT HAPPENED LAST YEAR.

IT WAS WILDFIRE IS NOT UNUSUAL IN CALIFORNIA.

IT HAPPENS.

THE PLACE IN MANY WAYS IS BUILT TO BURN.

BUT THE FIRES WERE JUST --THEY WERE NEXT LEVEL, REALLY.

THEY WERE --IT WAS AS IF THE ENTIRETY OF LOS ANGELES WAS ON FIRE ALL AT ONCE.

SCARCELY RAINED FOR ABOUT SIX MONTHS BEFORE THE FIRES BROKE OUT.

SO IT WAS VERY DRY LAST YEAR.

ON TOP OF THAT THERE HAD BEEN SEVERAL YEARS OF RAIN, PARTICULARLY WET YEARS, SO THERE WAS A LOT OF VEGETATION.

ON TOP OF THAT, THE SANTA ANA WINDS WHICH ARE FAMOUS HERE, HAD BEEN SUPER CHARGED BY AN UPPER ATMOSPHERE ATMOSPHERIC CONDITION THAT MADE THEM REALLY --HAD TURNED THEM INTO EXTREME --REALLY EXTREME WINDS AND ON TOP OF THAT, LOS ANGELES JUST GENERALLY IS A PLACE WHERE THERE IS A HOUSING SHORTAGE, THERE ARE A LOT OF HOUSES AND NEIGHBORS IN COMMUNITIES THAT HAVE BUILT UP IN AREAS THAT ARE FIRE PRONE.

THE --THERE WERE A T OF HOMES AND HUMAN FUEL IN THESE AREAS THAT WERE NEAR WILDLANDS.

AND SO THE PALISADES ARE ON THE COAST NEAR SANTA MONICA MOUNTAINS, THE EATON FIRE TOOK PLACE IN AN AREA WHERE THERE ARE COMMUNITIES IN THE FOOTHILLS OF THE SAN GABRIEL MOUNTAINS.

IT WAS PEAK FIRE CONDITIONS.

>> THE NUMBERS IN YOUR STORY ARE STAGGERING.

THIS IS -- THESE FIRES TRAGICALLY KILLED 31 PEOPLE.

THEY DESTROYED 13,000 HOMES, 16,000 BUILDINGS.

AS SOMEONE WHO HAS SEEN AND COVERED DISASTERS IN CALIFORNIA, EARTHQUAKES, WILDFIRES, HAVE YOU SEEN ANYTHING LIKE THIS?

>> I'VE SEEN A LOT OF DISASTER IN CALIFORNIA, IT IS UNFORTUNATE BUT TRUE.

AND THESE WERE, AS I SAID, THESE WERE NEXT LEVEL.

THIS --LOS ANGELES BURNS, BUT NOT THIS MUCH OF IT AT ONCE.

THERE WERE 12 FIRES SCATTERED IN -- THAT THIS FIRESTORM ACROSS THE -- ACROSS THE REGION.

THE FIREFIGHTERS HERE WERE STRETCHED AT ONE POINT ACROSS FIVE FIRES AT ONE TIME AND NOT JUST REGULAR FIRES.

THESE ARE, YOU KNOW, BIG, BIG WILDFIRES.

AND THE BURN SCARS ARE --COVER A TOTAL AREA OF ABOUT 80 SQUARE MILES.

IT IS AN AREA ABOUT THREE TIMES FOR REFERENCE ABOUT THREE TIMES THE SIZE OF MANHATTAN.

SO, NO, I HAVEN'T SEEN ANYTHING IN LOS ANGELES QUITE LIKE THIS, THIS WAS AN HISTORIC FIRE.

THE EATON AND PALISADES FIRES ARE AMONG THE MOST DESTRUCTIVE FIRES IN STATE HISTORY AT THIS POINT.

>> NOW, IN YOUR PIECE, YOU AND YOUR TEAM WROTE ONE YEAR AFTER THE L.A.

FIRES, HOPE, BLAME AND DEBT WAS THE TITLE OF IT, YOU WRITE MORE THAN 70% OF RESIDENTS WHO WERE DISPLACED REMAIN SO, WHILE FOUR OUT OF TEN FIRE SURVIVORS HAVE TAKEN ON DEBT AND ALMOST HALF HAVE WIPED OUT MUCH OF THEIR SAVINGS ACCORDING TO THE MOST RECENT SURVEY BY THE DEPARTMENT OF ANGELS NONPROFIT ADVOCACY FOR SURVIVORS OF WILDFIRES.

PUT THOSE NUMBERS AND THOSE PEOPLE IN PERSPECTIVE HERE WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT BLOCK AFTER BLOCK AND HOUSE AFTER HOUSE COMPLETELY GONE.

YOU ALSO ARE POINTING OUT IN THIS STORY SOME SIGNIFICANT INEQUITIES, ONE NEIGHBOR HAS THE ABILITY TO REBUILD AND THE OTHER DOES NOT.

>> I MEAN, IF YOU CAN IMAGINE IN LOS ANGELES IN PARTICULAR, HOUSES ARE NOT JUST --THEY'RE NOT JUST SHELTER, THEY'RE REPOSITORIES OF PEOPLE'S LIFE SAVINGS.

AND SO, FOR A LOT OF FOLKS, THEIR RETIREMENT WAS TIED UP IN THESE HOUSES, YOU KNOW.

THEIR --SOME OF THEM INHERITED THE, YOU KNOW, PROPERTY THAT --AND SO ON, SO IT IS AN EXTREME LOSS FOR ALMOST ANYONE.

AND EVEN INCLUDING PEOPLE OF MEANS FOR THAT MATTER.

IT TAKES --IT TAKES A LONG, LONG TIME TO REBUILD AFTER A DISASTER OFTEN AND A LOT OF FOLKS HAD ISSUES WITH INSURANCE, WITH UNDERINSURANCE, WITH, YOU KNOW, HOUSES THAT WERE UNINHABITABLE BECAUSE OF TOXIC SMOKE CONTAMINATION.

AND, YOU KNOW, THERE HAS BEEN AN ISSUE WITH FEDERAL DISASTER ASSISTANCE NOT COMING IN.

A LOT OF REASONS WHY REBUILDING HAS TAKEN AN ESPECIALLY LONG TIME.

BUT, AND HONESTLY, I HAVE TO SAY, WE WERE LOOKING FOR SIGNS THAT THE PALISADES, WHICH IS RICHER, WOULD BE REBUILDING MORE QUICKLY THAN, SAY, ALTADENA, WHICH IS MORE MIDDLE CLASS, MIDDLE INCOME.

BUT AT THE MOMENT, BOTH OF THEM --BOTH OF THEM LOOK A LOT ALIKE, ONLY A HANDFUL OF HOUSES ON EITHER PLACE HAVE BEEN REBUILT TO THE POINT WHERE PEOPLE CAN MOVE BACK INTO THEM.

WE ANTICIPATE THAT THAT WILL CHANGE IN THE COMING YEAR, THOUGH.

IT IS LIKELY THAT FOR A LOT OF FOLKS WHOSE INSURANCE COVERS LIVING EXPENSES, THINGS LIKE THAT, THAT INSURANCE COVERAGE IS GOING TO RUN OUT AND THOSE FOLKS ARE GOING TO HAVE TO DECIDE, YOU KNOW WHETHER TO CUT THEIR LOSSES OR WHETHER TO PAY --CONTINUE TO PAY OUT OF POCKET AND WORSEN THEIR DEBT.

SO IT IS A REAL -- >> YOU TALKED TO SOME PEOPLE THAT ARE LITERALLY WATCHING THEIR NEIGHBOR'S HOME GET REBUILT BUT BECAUSE OF PAPERWORK REQUIREMENTS, THEY'RE NOT SEEING A DIME AND THEY'RE ACTUALLY HEMORRHAGING THEIR LIFE SAVINGS.

>> MY COLLEAGUE JILL COWAN INTERVIEWED ONE FAMILY, THEIR HOME WAS DAMAGED BY WIND AND ASBESTOS CONTAMINATION, THAT'S A BIG PROBLEM ACROSS THE BASIN.

AND THEY CAN'T MOVE IN WITHOUT EXTENSIVE REMEDIATION, THEIR INSURANCE COMPANY HASN'T PAID THEIR LIVING EXPENSES BECAUSE OF DISPUTES OVER THE DOCUMENTATION.

AND WHILE THEY HAGGLE, THIS FAMILY IS PAYING ABOUT $3,000 A MONTH, ABOUT AVERAGE FOR A TWO-BEDROOM APARTMENT IN LOS ANGELES.

THEY'RE LIVING WITH THEIR SON, THEIR DOG, THE WOMAN'S GRANDMOTHER, OR MOTHER, RATHER, THE HUSBAND'S EMPLOYER HAS LOST A CLIENT, BECAUSE OF THE FIRE, HE'S WORKING TWO HOURS AWAY AND THEY MAXED OUT THEIR SAVINGS, THEY MAXED OUT THEIR CREDIT CARDS, Y'RE LOOKING AT $30,000 IN BACK MORTGAGE THAT THEY HAVE TO PAY WHEN THEIR FORBEARANCE ENDS.

THIS KIND OF A STORY IS NOT UNCOMMON.

AS AWFUL AS IT SOUNDS, IT ISN'T JUST THIS ONE FAMILY.

WE HEARD STORY AFTER STORY LIKE THIS ABOUT PEOPLE WHO ARE REALLY AT THE END OF THEIR ROPE.

>> WE TALKED ABOUT THE HUMAN COST, THE FIRES ARE APPARENTLY RESPONSIBLE FOR $131 BILLION IN PROPERTY AND CAPITAL LOSSES, STATE OFFICIAL ASKED THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT FOR $40 BILLION BUT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HASN'T KICKED THAT BACK, ONLY ABOUT $6 BILLION.

WHAT HAS THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION'S REASONING FOR WITHHOLDING ANY OTHER FUNDS?

>> WELL, INITIALLY THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION SEEMED WILLING TO HELP AND PROMISED TO HELP.

AND EARLY ON THE FIRES BROKE OUT BEFORE THE PRESIDENT TOOK OFFICE, AND SO INITIALLY THERE WAS MONEY TO REBUILD, ABOUT $6 BILLION KIND OF FLOWED TO THE STATE FOR REBUILDING.

BUT, YOU KNOW, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS TAKEN A KIND OF DIFFERENT APPROACH TO EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT AND DISASTER AID.

AND IN THE PAST, COMMUNITIES THAT HAVE BEEN HIT BY DISASTERS AND STATES HAVE RELIED ON THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT FOR THESE KIND OF REALLY BIG TICKET COSTS THAT --TO COVER THINGS LIKE INFRASTRUCTURE AND SCHOOL REBUILDING AND ROADS AND, YOU KNOW, AND LONG-TERM ASSISTANCE.

AND NOT JUST IN CALIFORNIA, BUT IN OTHER DISASTER AREAS AS WELL.

THE ADMINISTRATION HAS BEEN KIND OF SEEKING TO SHIFT THOSE COSTS LESS TOWARD THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND MORE TOWARD THE STATES, MORE TOWARD THE COMMUNITIES THEMSELVES AND SO THE AID HAS BEEN SLOWER TO FLOW IN A LOT OF PLACES.

THE REASONING ISN'T ENTIRELY CLEAR, BUT, YOU KNOW, WHAT HAS TRANSLATED INTO IN CALIFORNIA IS A YEAR LONG LAG FOR THIS MONEY, AND IT HAS BECOME A REAL POINT OF CONTENTION.

THERE IS A SENSE THAT KIND OF A GROWING SENSE THAT THE DETERIORATED RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN GOVERNOR GAVIN NEWSOM, WHO IS A DEMOCRAT -- A LEADER IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY AND THE PRESIDENT HAS, YOU KNOW, HAS PLAYED INTO IT, THAT THAT RELATIONSHIP ISN'T, YOU KNOW WHAT IT WAS DURING THE FIRST TERM, AND BUT JUST GENERALLY SPEAKING THERE IS A DIFFERENT POLICY TOWARD DISASTER AID FROM THIS ADMINISTRATION.

IN ANY CASE, THE MONEY HAS BEEN REALLY SLOW TO FLOW.

>> SO WAS THAT ANY DIFFERENT AT THE END OF THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION VERSUS HOW THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS RESPONDING TO THE STATE'S REQUEST?

>> OH, YEAH, THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION WAS VERY QUICK TO SIGN EMERGENCY ORDERS AND DECLARATIONS AND TO HELP FINANCIALLY.

>> YOU KNOW, IN THAT YEAR NOW, WE HAVE SEEN ALSO A RECHARACTERIZATION OF THE PEOPLE WHO RIGHT AT THE FIRES, THE L.A.

FIRE DEPARTMENT, AUTHORITIES, THEY WERE HAILED AS HEROES AS GETTING SOME OF THE STUFF DONE AND NOW WE HAVE LEGAL PROCEEDINGS AGAINST ALMOST EVERY PART OF THE CHAIN OF EXACTLY WHO IS RESPONSIBLE.

WAS THERE A RESERVOIR THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN FILLED MORE, OR SHOULD THE FIRE DEPARTMENT HAVE STAGED PEOPLE IN PLACES EARLIER, WHAT DID THEY KNOW, WHEN DID THEY KNOW IT.

>> YEAH, THERE IS A LOT OF BLAME.

ONE OF THE -- ONE OF THE ISSUES THAT HAS COME OUT OF THIS FIRE IS THE EXTENT TO WHICH HUMAN ERROR, YOU KNOW, MAY HAVE FACTORED INTO MAKING IT WORSE THAN IT OTHERWISE WOULD HAVE BEEN.

ONE THING ABOUT WILDFIRE IS THAT YOU HAVE TO PUT THEM OUT EARLY, OTHERWISE WHEN THEY CATCH ON, THEY'RE VERY, VERY DIFFICULT, ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO PUT OUT.

AND THERE IS JUST BEEN A LOT OF BLAME TO GO AROUND.

THE PALISADES FIRE, FOR EXAMPLE, HAS AN INVESTIGATION HAS FOUND THAT IT WAS A REKINDLE, THAT IT WAS --THAT IT WAS CAUSED BECAUSE OF SMOLDERING EMBERS FROM A FIRE THE WEEK BEFORE.

THAT THE FIRE DEPARTMENT THOUGHT IT HAD PUT OUT, BUT HADN'T.

IT HAD BURNED UNDERGROUND IN THE WILDLAND AND THEN WHEN THE WIND STARTED TO STIR, IT HAD REKINDLED AND BURNED INTO THE CITY.

THAT'S AN ISSUE.

THERE ARE ISSUES AROUND WHETHER ENOUGH ENGINES THAT WERE PREDEPLOYED IN THE AREA, WHETHER SHIFT OF ABOUT A THOUSAND FIREFIGHTERS COULD HAVE BEEN HELD OVER, AND WASN'T.

THERE WAS A RESERVOIR THAT WAS OFFLINE FOR REPAIRS THAT WAS OWNED BY THE CITY, WHY DID THAT HAPPEN?

THE MAYOR WAS OUT OF THE COUNTRY ON A DIPLOMATIC TRIP AT THE TIME THE FIRE BROKE OUT.

SHE HURRIED BACK, BUT PEOPLE IN THE PALISADES DIDN'T REALLY SUPPORT HER TO BEGIN WITH AND THEY REALLY HAD FORGIVEN HER SINCE.

THE --IN ALTADENA, THE EVACUATIONS WERE LATE IN PARTS OF TOWN AND ALL BUT ONE OF THE PEOPLE WHO DIED THERE DIED IN A -- IN THAT AREA WHERE THE BLACK COMMUNITY HAD BUILT UP THIS NEIGHBORHOOD AND SAO THERE IS A LOT OF ANGER THERE.

THERE ARE SERIOUS QUESTIONS ABOUT THAT.

PLUS, THERE HAVE BEEN QUESTIONS FOR THE INSURANCE COMMISSIONER THERE, COMPLAINTS THAT THE STATE HAS NOT HELD THE LINE ON INSURERS.

AND THERE ARE COMPLAINTS ALSO AS I SAID EARLIER ABOUT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, AND THE FEDERAL MONEY NOT ARRIVING YET.

SO THERE IS A LOT OF BLAME, A LOT OF ANGER.

>> ARE THERE SYSTEMS THAT HAVE NOW BEEN HELD ACCOUNTABLE, THAT HAVE BEEN MADE BETTER?

THERE WAS A RECENT REPORT THAT SAID THAT WHILE THE FRONT LINE RESPONDERS ACTED DECISIVELY AND HEROICAL LY IN THE FACE OF EXTRAORDINARY CONDITIONS, THERE NEEDED TO BE IMPROVED PUBLIC COMMUNICATION.

L. A. FIRE DEPARTMENT SAID --THEY'RE SAYING THIS ISN'T ALL JUST OUR FAULT, THEY REFLECT LEADERSHIP DECISIONS, LEGACY SYSTEMS AND CONSTRAINT.

IN THE WAKE OF SOMETHING LIKE THIS, HAVE THE CHANGES BEEN MADE, WHERE IF SOMETHING LIKE THIS WERE TO HAPPEN AGAIN, THAT WE WOULD RESPOND BETTER, FASTER, SAVE MORE LIVES?

>> YEAH.

THAT KIND OF CHANGE IS VERY DIFFICULT.

IT SOUNDS EASY.

BUT IT IS NOT.

THERE IS A HOUSING CRUNCH IN LOS ANGELES.

ONE BIG LESSON FROM THE FIRES WOULD NATURALLY BE DON'T BUILD NEAR THE WILDLAND.

BUT THESE COMMUNITIES ARE, YOU KNOW, DECADES, HUNDREDS, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE OLD COMMUNITIES.

THEY HAVE BEEN THERE FOR A LONG TIME.

THERE IS --ARE WE GOING TO TAKE AWAY AS I SAID THE LIFE SAVINGS OF THESE THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE AND NOT ALLOW HOUSES NEAR THE --NEAR HIGH FIRE ZONES.

A LOT OF LOS ANGELES COUNTY IS IN A HIGH FIRE ZONE.

THAT'S AN ISSUE.

EVEN SMALLER THINGS LIKE BUILDING A FIRE BREAK AROUND YOUR HOUSE.

THERE IS A PUSH ON THE STATE LEVEL TO MAKE PEOPLE BUILD -- NOT HAVE LANDSCAPING WITHIN FIVE FEET OF THEIR HOUSE HERE.

EVEN THAT HAS GOTTEN A LOT OF PUSHBACK.

PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO GIVE UP THEIR SHADE TREES AND ENGLISH GARDENS.

IN SINGLE FAMILY HOMES, THAT'S THE DREAM, IT IS SACROSANCT AND PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO GIVE IT UP IN A LOT OF WAYS.

THAT'S AN ISSUE.

IT IS EASIER SAID THAN DONE.

AS FOR THE LEADERSHIP, THIS IS AN ELECTION YEAR.

THE MAYOR IS UP FOR RE-ELECTION.

SHE'S GOT TWO CHALLENGERS AT LEAST WHO LOST HOMES IN THE PALISADES FIRE.

THERE ARE INVESTIGATIONS, HALF A DOZEN INVESTIGATIONS INTO THESE FIRES AND WHO DID WHAT, WHEN, WHO KNEW WHAT WHEN, WHO MIGHT HAVE DROPPED THE BALL OR MADE AN ERROR.

AND THERE IS ALSO A GROWING APPRECIATION I THINK, THOUGH, THAT THESE KINDS OF DISASTERS ARE -- HAVE GOTTEN WORSE.

THE SWINGS IN CLIMATE HAVE GOTTEN WORSE.

SO, THERE IS SOMETHING WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO FACE MORE OFTEN.

>> YEAH.

I WAS SAYING, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT HURRICANE FORCE WINDS, ON THE CALIFORNIA COASTLINE, WHILE THERE ARE FIRES RAGING, HOW MUCH OF THIS JUST COULD HAVE BEEN A FLUKE INCIDENT, THAT YES OUR CLIMATE IS CHANGING AND OUR FIRES ARE GETTING WORSE, BUT THERE MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN A WAY TO PREDICT OR PREPARE FOR SOMETHING SO MASSIVE AT THE SAME TIME?

>> THERE IS A STRONG ARGUMENT TO SAY THAT IT COULD HAVE BEEN PREDICTED.

THE WEATHER SERVICE WAS PREDICTING WEEKS IN ADVANCE THAT WIND WAS ABOUT TO KICK UP.

AND THERE IS A STRONG UNDERSTANDING OF RED FLAG CONDITIONS HERE.

AT LOS ANGELES, IF IT UNDERSTANDS ANYTHING HERE, PEOPLE HERE UNDERSTAND FIRE.

THEY KNOW FIRE WEATHER.

IT IS A FAIR POINT THAT THE LEADERSHIP HERE SHOULD HAVE SEEN IT COMING.

AND SOME LEADERS, YOU KNOW, DID SEE IT COMING AND THE PREPARATION VARIED ACROSS THE BOARD THAT WAY.

THERE IS -- AS FOR IT BEING A FLUKE, I DON'T KNOW THAT IT IS GOING TO BE THAT.

THE CLIMATE SCIENTISTS THAT WE HAVE SPOKEN TO TELL US THAT, YOU KNOW, THE --THAT THE DRYS ARE DRYER AND THE WETS ARE WETTER HERE AND THE CONDITIONS THAT KIND OF CONSPIRED TO CREATE, YOU THEY, TO NURTURE THIS DISASTER ARE LIKELY TO HAPPEN AGAIN.

SO, THE QUESTION, THOUGH, IS HOW ADEPT ARE WE GOING TO BECOME AT FIGHTING THESE FIRES AND WHAT KIND OF RESOURCES ARE WE GOING TO PUT INTO IT AND HOW MUCH ARE WE WILLING TO SACRIFICE.

>> YOU GOT THE OLYMPICS COMING IN A COUPLE OF YEARS.

AND I'M WONDERING WHETHER L. A. WILL HAVE RECOVERED BY THEN.

IS IT ON PACE NOW TO GET BETTER IN A YEAR?

>> WE'LL SEE.

A LOT OF LOS ANGELES AS I SAID IS NOT IN THE BURN SCAR, THAT'S THE GOOD NEWS.

IT IS A MATTER OF FIRST AND FOREMOST MONEY AND SUPPORT, BUT IT IS ALSO JUST A PROBLEM OF MORALE TOO.

THE FIRES WERE A GUT PUNCH TO LOS ANGELES.

AND NOT JUST IN THE BURN SCARS, THERE WAS A POLL THAT WAS DONE, UCLA DID A POLL, IN THE SPRING, AND IT JUST SHOWED HOW WIDESPREAD -- HOW WIDESPREAD THE IMPACT OF THE FIRES, HOW WILD WE FELT THEY WERE ACROSS SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA.

SO MANY PEOPLE KNEW SOMEONE WHO HAD LOST A HOME OR WERE, YOU KNOW, EMPLOYED SOMEONE WHO HAD BEEN DISPLACED BY THE FIRE OR HAD LOST BUSINESS BECAUSE OF IT.

AND SO IT WAS A -- IT HAS BEEN A PRETTY WIDELY FELT THING.

IN THAT RESPECT IT WAS COMPARABLE TO THE NORTH RIDGE EARTHQUAKE AND OTHER WIDESPREAD DISASTERS LIKE THAT.

>> THE LOS ANGELES BUREAU CHIEF FOR "THE NEW YORK TIMES," SHAWN HUBLER, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>> AND FINALLY FOR US, MOVIE AWARD SEASON IS IN FULL SWING WITH MANY FILM AND TV HEAVY HITTER TAKING HOME GOLDEN GLOBE TROPHIES LAST NIGHT INCLUDING PAUL THOMAS ANDERSON'S "ONE BATTLE AFTER ANOTHER" WHICH BAGGED FOUR.

"HAM NET" AND THE SERIES "ADOLESCENCE" WHICH SAW OWEN COOPER BECOME THE YOUNGEST EVER WINNER OF THE SUPPORTING ACTOR AWARD.

HISTORY WAS ALSO MADE BY THE SECRET AGENTS STAR WAGNER MORAM, THE FIRST BRAZILIAN TO WIN BEST MALE ACTOR, EXPRESSING ING GRATITUDE, HERE IS A CLIP FROM HIS SPEECH.

>> THANK YOU TO MY TEAM, THANK YOU FOR FRIENDSHIP.

BROTHER, YOU ARE A GENIUS AND YOU ARE MY BROTHER AND I THANK YOU FOR THIS.

AND FOR MANY MORE OTHER THINGS.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

"THE SECRET AGENT" IS A FILM ABOUT MEMORY, OF COURSE THE R THE LACK OF MEMORY AND GENERATIONAL TRAUMA.

I THINK THAT IF TRAUMA CAN BE PASSED ALONG GENERATIONS, VALUES CAN TOO.

SO THIS IS --TO THE ONES THAT ARE STICKING WITH THEIR VALUES IN DIFFICULT MOMENTS.

>> A LOVELY MESSAGE OF STRENGTH AND RESILIENCE.

AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING "AMANPOUR & CO."

ON PBS.

JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.