>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON": THE NEW U.S. ATTORNEY FOR MASSACHUSETTS, RACHAEL ROLLINS, JOINS ME FOR HER FIRST ONE-ON-ONE INTERVIEW IN THE NEW ROLE, ON HER FOCUS AHEAD, SOME OF THE ISSUES SHE'S INHERITED, INCLUDING THE DEATH PENALTY CASE AGAINST MARATHON BOMBER DZHOKHAR TSARNAEV, AND THE SECURITY CONCERNS SURROUNDING HER HIGH-PROFILE, HISTORIC APPOINTMENT AS THE FIRST BLACK WOMAN TO HOLD THE JOB.

THEN, LATER, EPIDEMIOLOGIST MICHAEL MINA ON EVERYTHING YOU NEED TO KNOW ABOUT RAPID TESTS.

HE BELIEVES THE ROAD OUT OF THE PANDEMIC IS PAVED WITH THOSE AT-HOME ANTIGEN TESTS MOST CAN'T FIND BUT THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN SAYS HE IS SOON TO MAKE AVAILABLE TO ALL.

♪♪ >> Braude: AFTER A LONG AND CONTENTIOUS CONFIRMATION PROCESS, RACHAEL ROLLINS IS FINALLY, OFFICIALLY THE U.S. ATTORNEY FOR MASSACHUSETTS.

THE FIRST BLACK WOMAN EVER IN THE ROLE.

SHE WAS SWORN IN MONDAY IN A PRIVATE CEREMONY AT BOSTON'S MOAKLEY COURTHOUSE, AND U.S. ATTORNEY RACHAEL ROLLINS JOINS ME NOW.

>> Braude: CONGRATULATIONS, GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> ALWAYS A PLEASURE, JIM.

>> Braude: WHEN I SAW IN DECEMBER, YOU SAID YOUR SWEARING IN WOULD BE SOME TIME IN JANUARY, BUT YOU KNEW EXACTLY WHEN IT WAS GOING TO BE.

YOU WANTED IT ON YOUR FATHER'S BIRTHDAY.

WHAT WAS THAT LIKE?

>> THE BEST GIFT I HAVE EVER GIVEN HIM, FOR SURE, AND HE TURNED 74 ON JANUARY 10th, AND IT WAS JUST REALLY POWERFUL TO TURN THE CORNER ON THE FIFTH FLOOR OF THE MOAKLEY COURTHOUSE AND SEE HIM AND WALK TO HIM AND GIVE HIM A BIG HUG.

IT WAS EMOTIONAL FOR BOTH OF US, BUT A LOT OF WHAT I DO, I'M JUST REALLY HAPPY HE IS PROUD OF ME.

>> Braude: I KNOW YOU SPOKE TO THE GOVERNOR, WHO HAD THE POWER TO, TO PICK YOUR REPLACEMENT.

WAS HE YOUR TOP RECOMMEND RECOMMENDATION TO GOVERNOR BAKER?

>> I WAS ABLE TO GIVE THREE.

I WON'T RANK THEM.

BUT I WILL LET YOU KNOW I HAD THE PLEASURE OF SPEAKING TO MR. HAYDEN, AND I AM HOPEFUL HE IS GOING TO DO A TREMENDOUS JOB.

I KNOW HE HAS WORKED IN THAT OFFICE.

I KNOW HE IS A CONSUMMATE PROFESSIONAL, AND I LOOK FORWARD TO WORKING CLOSELY WITH HIM AS THE U.S. ATTORNEY, AS I WILL BE WORKING WITH ALL 11 DIRECT ATTORNEYS IN THE COMMONWEALTH.

>> Braude: WAS HE ON YOUR LIST OF THREE, BUT YOU THE WOULDN'T RANK THEM, IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING?

>> AFTER SPEAKING WITH HIM, HE WAS ONE OF THE NAMES THAT THE GOVERNOR AND I DISCUSSED.

I DIDN'T FORMALLY GIVE A LIST TO THE GOVERNOR, BUT I HAD A VERY POSITIVE CONVERSATION WITH MR. HAYDEN.

I HADN'T MET HIM PRIOR TO THAT, BUT I WAS IMPRESSED WHEN I SPOKE TO HIM.

>> Braude: DID HE SPEAK TO A COMMITMENT TO CONTINUE YOUR VIEW THAT CAUSED YOU TO WIN A LANDSLIDE ELECTION, YOU'RE VIEW OF WHAT CRIMINAL JUSTICE SHOULD LOOK LIKE IN SUFFOLK COUNTY?

>> I ENCOURAGE YOU TO HAVE HIM ON YOUR SHOW AND TALK TO HIM ABOUT WHAT HE WOULD LIKE HIS ADMINISTRATION TO BE, BUT I HAVE BEEN CLEAR, JIM, THAT THE PEOPLE OF SUFFOLK COUNTY VOTED FOR FOUR YEARS OF WHAT WE PROPOSED.

AND IT'S MY HOPE THAT, UM, IF MR. A HAYDEN CHOOSES TO RUN AND GETS THE VOTE OF THE PEOPLE OF SUFFOLK COUNTY AND CHOOSES TO MAKE CHANGES -- >> Braude: I WAS JUST TOLD IN MY EAR HE WILL BE HERE ON WEDNESDAY.

IF I WAS WRITING A STORY ON YOUR LEGACY, MOST PEOPLE WOULD THINK IT WOULD BE ABOUT THE 15 MINOR OFFENSES YOU WOULD NOT PROSECUTE, AND I WOULD ARGUE IT IS YOUR REVIEW OF THOSE WHO ENDED UP IN JAIL, SPENDING THEIR LIFE IN JAIL, RELEASED ON WRONGLY CONVICTION.

WILL THAT BE PART OF YOUR NEW OFFICE AS WELL?

>> WE ARE LOOKING AT ALL OF THE WAYS WE CAN IMPROVE AN ALREADY EXCEPTIONAL OFFICE AT THE U.S. ATTORNEY'S OFFICE.

WE WILL NEVER BE AFRAID TO LOOK BACK TO SEE IF THE OFFICE GOT IT RIGHT.

WE HAVE EXAMPLES FROM JUDGE WOLF, WHO FROM THE BENCH HAS HELD NOT ONLY THIS OFFICE AND OTHERS ACCOUNTABLE TO MAKE SURE WE'RE DOING IT RIGHT, BUT I HOPE MY LEGACY IS THE INTEGRITY REVIEW BUREAU.

I HOPE MY LEGACY HAS PUSHED THE PROJECTS FOR UNSOLVED SUFFOLK HOMICIDES WHERE WE HAVE NOW INDICTED THREE INDIVIDUALS FOR MURDERS, DATING BACK 20, 30, AND 40 YEARS, THAT LIKELY WOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN LOOKED AT WITHOUT PUTTING RESOURCES INTO THOSE TYPES OF MATTERS.

REMEMBER, JIM, WE DON'T GET TO CREATE CRIMES STRATEGY BUREAU, INTEGRITY BUREAU, AND PUSH, UNLESS WE DIVERT A LOT OF OUR ATTENTION AWAY FROM THE NON-VIOLENT, NON-SERIOUS CRIMES.

>> Braude: YOU'VE BEEN ASKED A THOUSAND TIMES, WHAT IS IT GOING TO BE LIKE BEING THE BOSS.

YOU HAVE THE ASSISTANT ATTORNEY, THE ATTORNEY GENERAL, AND THE PRESIDENT BIDEN'S.

YOU AND MARION RYAN JOINED ME NOT TOO LONG WHEN YOU FILED A LAWSUIT AGAINST I.C.E.

FOR THEIR PRESENCE IN A COURTROOM.

LET'S ASSUME THE SAME LAWSUIT IN THE FUTURE IS FILED BY YOUR SUCCESSER, YOU WOULD HAVE TO DEFEND I.C.E.

ARE YOU COMFORTABLE WITH THAT?

>> I AM.

WHAT I COULD DO, AS WHEN I WAS AN ASSISTANT UNITED STATES ATTORNEY, AND CERTAINLY AS THE UNITED STATES ATTORNEY, WE'RE GOING TO LOOK AT EVERY SINGLE CASE AND LOOK AT THE FACTS.

ALTHOUGH AS D.A., MY BOSS WAS THE VOTERS OF SUFFOLK COUNTY, AND I HAVE DEPUTY ATTORNEY, AND THE ATTORNEY GENERAL, MERRICK GARLAND, AND, OF COURSE, PRESIDENT BIDEN -- THAT'S A PRETTY GREAT ROSTER TO BE ABLE TO REACH UP TO AND GET ADVICE AND COUNSEL FROM SO WE CAN SEE WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE REST OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

WE KNOW UNDER THIS ADMINISTRATION -- AND I AM PROUD AS D.A.

TO HAVE STOOD WITH D.A.

RYAN -- AS A RESULT OF THAT LAWSUIT, THIS NEW ADMINISTRATION HAS IMPLEMENTED MANY OF THE CHANGES THAT WE WERE ADVOCATING FOR WHEN WE FILED THAT PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION.

YES, I SAT SHOULDER TO SHOULDER WITH ANDY LELLING, ME AS THE D.A., AND HIM THE U.S. ATTORNEY, FOR THAT PRELIMINARY INJUNCTION.

AND NOW I WOULD BE SITTING NEXT TO SOMEBODY ELSE, BUT IN A DIFFERENT ROLE, IF THAT HAPPENS.

>> Braude: LET ME GIVE YOU ONE MORE EXAMPLE WHERE I DON'T THINK YOU WOULD SEEK THE GUIDANCE OF YOUR BOSSES, BUT IT WOULD BE A DIRECTIVE GIVEN TO YOU.

AN APPELLATE COURT OVERTURNED THE DEATH SENTENCE FOR DZHOKHAR TSARNAEV, THE MARATHON BOMBER.

IF IT WAS SENT BACK FOR ANOTHER HEARING, I'M ASSUMING BEFORE THE SUPREME COURT, THEY WOULD WANT YOU TO PRESS FOR THE DEATH PENALTY AGAIN FOR TSARNAEV.

ARE YOU COMFORTABLE DOING THAT AS WELL?

>> I WOULDN'T HAVE TAKEN THIS JOB, JIM, IF I WAS NOT COMFORTABLE WITH ALL OF THE INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT AND HARD DECISIONS THAT HAVE TO BE MADE.

BUT I HAVE BEEN TOLD -- AND I'VE HAD THE PRIVILEGE OF SPEAKING WITH SIX PRIOR U.S.

ATTORNEYS TO ME -- AND JUDGE HARRINGTON I WANT TO SCHEDULE TIME, SO IT WILL BE SEVEN.

THERE IS A LOT OF THOUGHT THAT GOES INTO THOSE DECISIONS, AND WE WILL BE REACHING OUT TO MAIN JUSTICE TO GET INPUT, BUT I AM COMFORTABLE MAKING THAT DECISION.

I WON'T TELL YOU WHAT THAT IS GOING TO BE BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE RULING ULTIMATELY OR WHAT THE GUIDANCE IS GOING TO BE FOR ME, BUT I WILL MAKE THAT DECISION AND IT WILL BE THOUGHTFUL AND DELIBERATE.

>> Braude: CAN WE MOVE FROM A COUPLE OF HYPOTHETICALS TO MATTERS THAT ARE STILL PENDING.

WHEN YOU WERE HERE IN DECEMBER, WE TALKED ABOUT THE HOLYOKE SOLDIERS' HOME, AND YOU EXPRESSED DISAPPOINTMENT THAT THE JUDGE DISMISSED CHARGES AGAINST THE TWO LEADERS OF THAT HOME THAT LED TO 70 SOME DEATHS OF VETERANS.

IT WAS A PROCEEDING INITIATED BY THE ATTORNEY.

ATTORNEY GENERAL.

I ASKED YOU IF YOU INTENDED TO CONTINUE A PENDING INVESTIGATION, THAT YOU'RE OFFICE, IN CONJUNCTION WITH THE CIVIL RIGHTS DIVISION OF THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE WAS IN THE MIDST OF, AND YOU SAID YOU WOULD CHECK AND IF IT WAS STILL PENDING, THAT YOU WOULD.

HAVE YOU CHECKED?

IS IT STILL PENDING?

WILL YOU?

>> SO WE -- I'M ON DAY FOUR OF MY JOB -- >> Braude: I KNOW THAT.

>> BUT WE ARE GETTING BRIEFED ON ALL OF THE IMPORTANT CASES.

AND THIS OFFICE HANDLES A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF IMPORTANT CASES ALL OVER THE COMMONWEALTH.

AND THIS IS ONE OF THEM.

JIM, I SAID TO YOU BEFORE, I'M THE DAUGHTER OF A NAVY CORPSMAN.

I LOOK AT THESE VETERANS AS PEOPLE WHO HAVE RISKED THEIR LIVES SO PEOPLE LIKE ME HAVE THE ABILITY TO VOICE MY OPINION, AND IT IS DEPLORABLE WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM AND HOW THEIR LIVES ENDED.

I WANT TO COMMEND THE ATTORNEY GENERAL OF OUR COMMONWEALTH, MAURA HEALEY, FOR STEPPING UP AND BRINGING THOSE CHARGES.

AND I WAS DISAPPOINTED THAT THEY WERE DISMISSED.

BUT WITHOUT DISCLOSING ANYTHING ELSE, I CAN SAY THAT REMAINS A VERY STRONG PASSION IN ME, TO MAKE SURE THAT WHEN VULNERABLE INDIVIDUALS, PARTICULARLY THOSE THAT HAVE GIVEN SO MUCH TO THIS COUNTRY, ARE WRONGED, THAT WE DO NOT SIT SILENTLY AND ALLOW THAT TO HAPPEN.

THAT WE STAND UP AS THE GOVERNMENT AND SAY THAT IT IS UNACCEPTABLE, AND WHOEVER DID IT WILL BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE TO THE FULL EXTENT OF THE LAW.

>> Braude: SO THERE STILL COULD BE FEDERAL CHARGES AGAINST THOSE MEN COMING OUT OF THE U.S. ATTORNEY'S OFFICE, YOU'RE OFFICE?

>> I WILL TELL YOU IF THAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN, YOU WILL HEAR THAT FIRST FROM ME.

BUT AS OF RIGHT NOW I CAN'T DISCUSS IT OR DISCLOSE IT.

>> Braude: ONE OF THE INCREDIBLY TROUBLING THINGS FROM OUR LAST DISCUSSION, AND I'M ASSUMING EVERYBODY WHO WATCHED IT FELT THE SAME WAY OR READ ABOUT IT AFTERWARDS, ARE THE THREATS THAT YOU RECEIVED.

I ASKED FU THEREI ASKED YOU IF THERE WAS ANY TRICKLE DOWN, AND YOU SAID YOU GOT DEATH THREATS.

AND YOU TOLD CNN THAT YOU GOT A PHONE CALL THAT SAID HIDE YOUR KIDS.

AND THERE ARE THREE, AND I ASSUME THAT MEANT A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT TO YOU.

HAS THAT SUBSIDED, OR IS THERE STILL MORE OF THIS CRAP?

>> I WANT TO FIRST SAY I GOT A LOT OF REALLY AMAZING MESSAGES, TOO, A REALLY POSITIVE OUTPOURING OF SUPPORT FROM NOT ONLY PEOPLE WHO VOTE FORD FOR ME BUT FROM PEOPLE AROUND THE COUNTRY, AND MY LAW ENFORCEMENT MEMBERS.

WE JUST HAD THE ONE-YEAR ANNIVERSARY OF THE INSURRECTION OF THE CAPITOL, AND ALTHOUGH I'M NOT GOING TO SPEAK TO THE DETAILS OF MY SECURITY, WHAT I CAN PROMISE YOU, JIM, IS I DID NOT FEEL SAFE, AND IF I FELT MY THREE CHILDREN WERE NOT SAFE, I WOULD NOT BE SPEAKING TO YOU TODAY AS THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY OF MASSACHUSETTS.

I HAVE FULL FAITH IN THE BOSTON POLICE DEPARTMENT AND OTHERS WHO ARE LOOKING AT SOCIAL MEDIA AND OTHER WAYS THAT PEOPLE MIGHT BE REACHING OUT TO ME AND POSING THREATS.

>> Braude: DID THE U.S.

MARSHALS OFFICE EXPLAIN WHY THEY DENIED YOUR REQUEST FOR SECURITY?

>> WE HAVE HAD MANY CONVERSATIONS.

WHAT I CAN TELL YOU IS I HAVE A VERY STRONG WORKING RELATIONSHIP, IN THESE FOUR DAYS, WITH THE U.S.

MARSHAL SERVICE.

I AM NOT FEARFUL FOR MY SAFETY.

>> Braude: U.S. ATTORNEY, YOU PRAISED ANDREW LELLING THE LAST TIME YOU WERE HERE, AND I KNOW YOU WORKED WITH HIM.

LET'S ASSUME WE'RE TALKING, WHICH WE WILL, AFTER A COUPLE OF YEARS ON THE JOB, HOW WILL THE PEOPLE OF MASSACHUSETTS KNOW THAT THERE IS A DIFFERENT U.S. ATTORNEY IN THAT CHAIR?

BY THE WAY, THAT QUESTION IS NOT MEANT TO DISPARAGE ANYONE AT ALL, BUT YOU ARE A DIFFERENT PERSON WITH A DIFFERENT VIEW OF THE LAW.

HOW WILL THEY KNOW THAT THERE -- I WAS GOING TO SAY THERE WAS A NEW SHERIFF IN TOWN -- A NEW U.S. ATTORNEY IN TOWN?

>> MY HOME IS WE'RE GOING TO BE A LITTLE MORE ACTIVE IN THE COMMUNITY, ONLY BECAUSE I COME FROM THAT, JIM.

AS A FORMER ELECTED OFFICIAL, AS SOMEONE WHO HAD TO KNOCK ON EVERY DOOR IN ORDER TO GET THE JOB, 180,000 VOTES, AND I'M VERY PROUD OF THAT.

WE EARNED EVERY VOTE AS SUFFOLK COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY.

BUT I WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW THE EXCEPTIONAL WORK THAT THE U.S. ATTORNEY'S OFFICE DOES.

THERE ARE DEFENSES.

WE HAVE AN ENTIRE CIVIL UNIT THAT HAS DONE TREMENDOUS WORK REGARDING CIVIL RIGHTS, LOOKING AT THE POLICE DEPARTMENT OR THE MASS DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTIONS.

WE CAN LOOK AT SCHOOL SYSTEMS, HOUSING, AND VOTING.

I WANT TO BE EDUCATING PEOPLE ABOUT THE EXCEPTIONAL WORK THAT THIS OFFICE DOES.

AND I HOPE THERE ARE MORE OPPORTUNITIES NOW FOR ME TO DO THAT THAN MAYBE IN PREVIOUS ADMINISTRATIONS.

>> Braude: CONGRATULATIONS.

GOOD LUCK, AND I LOOK FORWARD TO TALKING TO YOU MUCH IN YOUR NEW ROLE.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME, U.S. ATTORNEY.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

>> Braude: IT APPEARS WE MAY BE NEARING THE END OF THE WORST OF THE LATEST COVID SURGE IN THIS REGION.

VIRUS LEVELS IN WASTEWATER IN AND AROUND BOSTON HAVE STARTED DROPPING, WHICH SOME ARGUE IS AN EVEN BETTER INDICATOR THAN STATE TESTING DATA.

BUT AS ALWAYS WITH THIS PANDEMIC, IT'S NOT OVER UNTIL IT'S OVER.

EXPERTS ARE WARNING THAT HOSPITALS ARE STILL GOING TO BE STRETCHED THIN FOR WEEKS TO COME AND THAT WE STILL NEED TO BE VIGILANT IN PROTECTING OURSELVES, AND OTHERS, FROM COVID SPREAD.

THAT'S WHY JOE BIDEN ANNOUNCED ANOTHER INITIATIVE TODAY, PART OF WHAT HE'S CALLING A "WHOLE-OF-GOVERNMENT SURGE RESPONSE" TO THE PANDEMIC.

>> WE'RE MAKING HIGH-QUALITY MASKS AVAILABLE TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE FOR FREE.

>> Braude: BUT AS WITH THE WHOLE TESTING THING, HE HASN'T SAID EXACTLY HOW YET, WITH DETAILS TO COME NEXT WEEK.

HE ALSO ANNOUNCED ANOTHER 500 MILLION FREE AT-HOME TESTS ARE COMING, ON TOP OF THE 500 MILLION HE ALREADY ANNOUNCED, WITH THE WEBSITE FOR ALL OF THAT ALSO SET TO ROLL OUT NEXT WEEK.

AND RAPID TESTS -- THOSE AT-HOME KITS YOU WISHED YOU HAD MORE OF -- ARE WHAT MY NEXT GUEST HAS BEEN TRUMPETING ALMOST SINCE THE START OF THE PANDEMIC, LONG BEFORE WE EVEN HAD A VACCINE.

DR. MICHAEL MINA IS A FORMER ASSISTANT PROFESSOR OF EPIDEMIOLOGY AT HARVARD'S SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH, NOW THE CHIEF SCIENCE OFFICER AT E-MED, WHICH PROVIDES A RANGE OF AT-HOME DIAGNOSTIC TESTING.

>> Braude: DOCTOR, IT IS GOOD TO SEE YOU.

THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

>> Doctor: GREAT TO BE HERE.

THANK YOU.

>> Braude: SO FOR THE TERMINALLY CONFUSED, AND I AM AMONG THEM, THE MANTRA WE HAVE BEEN SPOUTING UNTIL RECENTLY WAS WAS ANTIGEN TESTS WERE NOT RELIABLE AS P.C.R.

TESTS, THUS P.C.R.

TESTS ARE OF THE TESTS OF CHOICE.

WE ARE WRONG.

WHY?

>> Doctor: THE P.C.R.

TEST IS A VERY GOOD TEST IF YOU'RE A PHYSICIAN TRYING TO GET EVERY SHRED OF EVIDENCE ABOUT WHETHER YOUR PATIENT WAS CURRENTLY INFECTED OR RECENTLY INFECTED WITH THE VIRUS, THE CORONAVIRUS.

BUT THE VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE, THE PEOPLE WHO ARE GOING TO GET TESTED, OUR QUESTION IS NOT: HAVE I BEEN INFECTED IN THE PAST?

THE QUESTION IS MORE STRAIGHTFORWARD: AM I INFECTIOUS NOW?

AM I OKAY TO COME OUT OF ISOLATION?

FOR THAT QUESTION, THE ANTIGEN TEST IS A MUCH MORE RELIABLE AND ACCURATE TEST TO GIVE THU GIVE YOU THAT ANSWER.

THE ANTIGEN TEST WILL ONLY TURN POSITIVE WHEN YOU ARE CURRENTLY INFECTIOUS AND A POTENTIAL RISK TO THE PEOPLE AROUND YOU.

>> Braude: BUT WHEN PEOPLE RESPOND TO WHAT YOU SAID BY SAYING SOMETHING LIKE, WELL, THE P.C.R.

TEST IS MORE SENSITIVE, THAT'S WHY YOU RESPOND BY SAYING, I THINK, IN FACT IT IS TOO SENSITIVE FOR OUR EVERYDAY PURPOSES?

>> Doctor: THAT'S RIGHT.

IT IS TOO SENSITIVE.

I LIKE TO GIVE AN ANALOGY OF A DETECTIVE VERSUS A SECURITY GUARD.

THEY'RE BOTH HERE TO HELP STOP CRIME.

BUT A DETECTIVE CAN GO BACK TO A CRIME SCENE WEEKS OR MONTHS OR YEARS, EVEN, AND PICK UP LITTLE SHREDS OF D.N.A.

AND FIGURE OUT WHO WAS AT THAT CRIME SCENE.

THAT IS VERY DIFFERENT THAN THE KIND OF PERSON WE NEED TO STOP THE CRIME FROM HAPPENING IN THE PROCESS OF IT OCCURRING.

AND THAT'S WHERE YOU REALLY NEED A SECURITY GUARD OR SECURITY CAMERA, WHICH IS VERY DIFFERENT THAN A FORENSIC DETECTIVE WHO MIGHT JUST HAPPEN TO SHOW UP AT THE TIME THE CRIME IS HAPPENING, BUT MORE OFTEN WILL SHOW UP AFTERWARDS.

SO THE TWO TESTS ARE USED FOR VERY DIFFERENT PURPOSES.

IN THE CASE OF A RAPID TEST, IT IS ABOUT FINDING OUT, AM I INFECTIOUS?

DO I NEED TO ICE ISOLATE?

AND IT IS A RAPID ANTIGEN TEST.

IT GIVES YOU RESULTS TO ACT AND STOP YOURSELF FROM TRANSMITTING ANY FURTHER.

>> Braude: WHEN I FIRST STARTED READING YOUR STUFF A FEW WEEKS AGO, AND WE HAD YOU ON THE RADIO, YOU CONVINCED ME.

AND THEN I READ A STORY ABOUT THE FACT OF A SMALL TEST, AND THE CONCLUSION WAS THE RAPID TEST DIDN'T DETECT OMICRON IN THE FIRST FEW DAYS OF THE INFECTION.

THE POINT OF THE BEING YOU COULD BE TRANSMITTING AND NOT EVEN KNOW YOU ARE.

ISN'T THAT A PROBLEM?

>> Doctor: THIS IS WHERE THERE IS MASSIVE CONFUSION AROUND THAT STUDY.

WHAT THE STUDY WAS ACTUALLY COMPARING WAS THE USE OF SALIVA AS A SPECIMEN VERSUS A NASAL SWAB.

WHEN YOU USE SALIVA, WE KNOW THE SALIVA CAN TURN POSITIVE A DAY OR TWO BEFORE THE VIRUS GETS TO MIGRATE UP INTO THE NOSE.

IT WAS REALLY MORE ABOUT PREPARING THE SPECIMEN TYPE, WHERE THE COLLECTION OF THE SPECIMEN WAS COME FRUSTRATING IN THE BODY.

BUT WHAT WE KNOW FROM BOTH THAT STUDY AND STUDIES THAT HAVE COME BEFORE AND AFTER IT, THAT THE RAPID ANTIGEN TESTS ARE STILL PERFORMING EXACTLY AS WE ANTICIPATE THEY WILL PERFORM TO DETECT OMICRON, IN THE SAME WAY IT WAS DETECTING DELTA OR ANY OF THE OTHER VARIANTS.

WHAT HAS CHANGED IS OMICRON IS OBVIOUSLY MUCH MORE TRANSMISSIBLE, AND SO THERE IS A PERIOD OF TIME ON THE RAMP UP WHEN NO TEST WILL FIND YOU AS POSITIVE IN THE NOSE, BUT YOU MIGHT ALREADY BE SPREADING IT BECAUSE THE VIRUS IS IN YOUR THROAT.

SO IT IS A MUCH MORE DIFFICULT PROBLEM THAT BOTH THE ANTIGEN TEST NOR THE P.C.R.

ARE ABLE TO SOLVE UNLESS WE START COLLECTING THE SPECIMEN FROM FURTHER DOWN OR IN THE SALIVA.

>> Braude: LET ME STATE IS THE OBVIOUS, FOR THOSE WHO ARE OBSESSED, AS WE SHOULD BE, ABOUT LOCKDOWNS THAT ARE KILLING WORKERS, NOT LITERALLY, THE RAPID TEST IS THE ANTIDOTE FOR BOTH OF THOSE PROBLEMS, ACCORDING TO YOU, CORRECT?

>> Doctor: YES.

BECAUSE THE REASON IS (A) WE WANT TO STOP TRANSMISSION, AND THE RAPID TEST IS A VERY GOOD TOOL TO DO THAT.

AS LONG AS WE'RE STILL, AS A SOCIETY, CHOOSING TO STOP OUTBREAKS BY LOCKING THINGS DOWN AND KEEPING PEOPLE AT HOME, SO OUR REAL GOAL IS TO STOP TRANSMISSION.

THE RAPID TEST CAN HELP YOU IDENTIFY IT IN THE WAY YOU'RE USING, STOPPING IT FROM SPREADING IT.

AND THE OTHER IMPORTANT PIECE IS REMOVING YOURSELF FROM ISOLATION IS ABSOLUTELY CRUCIAL TO DO IN A SAFE WAY.

THE C.D.C.

HAS ANYONE LEAVING ISOLATION AT FIVE DAYS, BUT WHAT WE KNOW IS THAT MANY, MANY PEOPLE ARE STILL POSITIVE AND INFECTIOUS, SOME THE THEIR PEAK, AT FIVE DAYS, AT THE VERY TIME THEY'RE LEAVING ISOLATION.

>> Braude: YOU THINK THEY NEED TO HAVE A NEGATIVE TEST, UNLIKE WHAT THE RECOMMENDATIONS FROM THE C.D.C.

ARE?

>> Doctor: THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT.

THE C.D.C.

KIND OF HAD ITS HANDS TIED BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH TESTS TO RECOMMEND THAT AS A NATION.

BUT THE REALITY IS IF YOU CAN GET THE TEST, WE SHOULD REALLY BE TRYING TO FOCUS THE SMALL AMOUNT OF TESTS WE DO HAVE ACCESS TO TO THE VERY HIGH UTILITY EFFORTS WHERE I THINK TESTS OUT OF ISOLATION IS ONE OF THE BEST APPROACHES AND BEST AND MOST AFFECTIVE WAYS TO USE THE TESTS CURRENTLY.

>> Braude: EVEN IF WE GET -- WELL, LET'S TALK ABOUT THE EMBRACE OF LATE OF YOUR MESSAGE.

HERE IS GOVERNOR BAKER, FOR EXAMPLE, I THINK IT WAS THIS TUESDAY, TESTING IN FRONT OF THE LEGISLATURE.

>> I WOULD ACTUALLY ARGUE THAT RAPID TESTS ARE A BETTER WAY OF MENTIONING WHEN SOMEONE IS OVER COVID THAN A P.C.R.

TEST.

WE HAVE LOTS OF ANECDOTAL INFORMATION THAT EMPLOYERS ARE REQUIRING P.C.R.

TESTS TO GO BACK TO WORK.

THEY SHOULDN'T BE.

THEY SHOULD BE REQUIRING RAPID TESTS.

>> Braude: AND THE PRESIDENT SEEMS TO BE THERE, TOO, WITH THE 500 MILLION TESTS COME, HOPEFULLY IN JANUARY, AND THEN AFTER THAT, ANOTHER 500 MILLION.

FAR BETTER THAN HIS ABSURD PLAN TO HAVE PEOPLE BUY A TEST AND THEN GIVE IT TO THEIR INSURANCE COMPANY.

WITH THE HISTORY OF WEBSITES, LIKE OBAMACARE, FOR EXAMPLE, ARE YOU CONFIDENT THIS VEHICLE WILL BE ADEQUATE TO DISTRIBUTE A BILLION TESTS TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE?

AND, BY THE WAY, A BILLION IS NOT EVEN ENOUGH, IS IT?

>> Doctor: I'M NOT A LOGISTICS PERSON, SO IN TERMS OF KNOWING HOW MUCH THE WEBSITE CAN HANDLED -- WHAT I WOULD SAY IS IT IS CERTAINLY A DIRECTION IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.

WE HAVE NOW LEADERSHIP AROUND TESTING, TOM MINGGELSON IS A PROFESSOR AT JOHN HOPKINS, AND I FEEL ENCOURAGED HAVING SOMEBODY LIKE HIM NOW TAKING THE HELM, IF IT IS NOT WORKING OUT, I HOPE THEY WILL SHIFT AND TRY SOMETHING ELSE THAT WILL GET THE TEST OUT TO PEOPLE.

OHIO IS A TERRIFIC EXTREME OF A DIFFERENT APPROACH.

OHIO, AND ACTUALLY THE COMPANY I'M NOW AT, E-MED, PARTNERED EARLY ON TO MAKE TESTS AVAILABLE FOR FREE TO PEOPLE.

PEOPLE COULD JUST GO TO THE LIBRARY AND PICK UP A TEST.

THERE WAS NO SHIFTING IT TO INDIVIDUAL HOMES, BUT MAKING IT VERY, VERY ACCESSIBLE BY PUTTING IT IN A LOT OF DIFFERENT PLACES.

>> Braude: I KNOW HISTORY IS NOT TYPICALLY HELPFUL.

LET'S SPEND A MINUTE.

RENA BOSH WAS ON THE RADIO WITH US, AN M.I.T.ER M.I.

M.I.T.-ER HAD A TEST, AND SHE SAID YOU COULD BUY A RAPID TEST READILY AVAILABLE IN GERMANY FOR, LIKE, 50 CENTS.

WHY WERE WE SO BACKWARDS OR SO SLOW IN REGULATORY AGENCIES PUTTING A STAMP OF APPROVAL ON THESE THINGS?

>> Doctor: WELL, WE HAVE -- ON THE ONE HAND OUR F.D.A.

HAS BEEN CONSIDERED A GOLD STANDARD FOR SAFETY.

SO THEY'RE UNCOMPROMISING IN THAT REGARD.

ON THE OTHER HAND, WE'RE NOT EXACTLY THE MOST INNOVATIVE IN HOW WE THINK ABOUT THINGS IN THIS COUNTRY.

FOR EXAMPLE, IN THE REGULATORY LANDSCAPE, WE ONLY HAVE A PATHWAY THAT IS FOCUSED ON MEDICAL DIAGNOSTICS FOR A PHYSICIAN TO BE USING FOR THEIR PATIENT TO BE ABLE TO SAY HAVE YOU BEEN INFECTED IN THE PAST COUPLE OF WEEKS?

REGARDLESS OF TIME, REGARDLESS OF IT BEING TOO SENSITIVE AND TURNING UP POSITIVE WHEN YOU ARE NO LONGER INFECTIOUS, OUR REGULATORY LANDSCAPE DOESN'T HAVE THE FAMILIARITY FOR AUTHORIZING A TEST FOR A DIFFERENT TYPE OF MEDICAL OR PUBLIC HEALTH USE, UNFORTUNATELY.

>> Braude: THIS -- EVEN THOUGH I'M TOTALLY BOUGHT INTO WHAT YOU'RE PITCHING, THE RAPID TEST, AND THE LEADERS ARE, TOO, FORTUNATELY, BUT IT IS JUST ONE THING, NOT A CURE-ALL.

THE FIRST USE, AS YOU PROBABLY KNOW, IS NOT SO SIMPLE, WITH THE MICROSCOPIC DIRECTIONS.

AND THEN IF THEY TEST POSITIVE, HOW DO THEY GET ACCESS TO THE ANTIVIRAL PILLS.

SO THERE IS A WHOLE SPECTRUM OF THINGS THAT NEED TO BE DONE, NOT JUST MAKING THESE AVAILABLE AND AFFORDABLE.

>> Doctor: THAT'S RIGHT.

TO BE HONEST, THAT IS ONE OF THE MAJOR REASONS I LEFT HARVARD, TO SOLVE THIS PROBLEM.

WHEN SOMEBODY WANTS TO USE A TEST AND AREN'T SURE HOW TO DO IT, A PROMPTER POPS UP ON THEIR COMPUTER AND PROMPTS.

AND WE'RE CREATING A SITE SO SOMEBODY CAN HAVE THESE TESTS, AN ELDERLY PERSON HAS IT IN THEIR HOME, AND THEY CAN TAKE THE TEST, AND IF THEY'RE POSITIVE, THEY CAN GET A TREATMENT IDEALLY DELIVERED STRAIGHT TO THEIR DOOR.

THAT'S WHAT WE'RE WORKING ON NOW.

BECAUSE TO YOUR POINT, GETTING PEOPLE HELP TO ACCESS THESE LIFE-SAVING TREATMENTS IS A MAJOR OBSTACLE.

DURING IT IN A TIMEFRAME THAT THE TREATMENT IS STILL GOING TO BENEFIT THEM IS MASSIVE.

I'M TRYING TO CREATE A TASK FORCE WITH E-MED TO SOLVE THAT PARTICULAR ISSUE.

>> Braude: WE ONLY HAVE A COUPLE OF MINUTES LEFT.

867,000 PEOPLE DEAD IN THIS COUNTRY.

IF WE HAD AN ADEQUATE NUMBER OF RAPID TESTS IN APRIL, MAY, JUNE OF 2020, HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WOULDN'T BE ON THAT LIST, WOULD THAT BE?

>> Doctor: I BELIEVE VERY FIRMLY THEY WOULD NOT.

THE DATA FROM THE U.K.

SUPPORTS THAT.

>> Braude: DR. MINA, THANK YOU FOR YOUR WORK.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

HOPE TO SEE YOU SOON.

>> Braude: THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT.

TOMORROW, TUNE IN FOR "TALKING POLITICS."

AFTER MAYOR WU'S DEADLINE TO CLEAR THE TENT ENCAMPMENT AT MASS AND CASS, ADAM REILLY AND HIS PANEL WILL DIVE INTO WHETHER SHE'S KEPT HER PROMISES TO THE PEOPLE WHO USED TO LIVE THERE.

PLUS, BAKER, AGAIN DEFENDING HIS PANDEMIC RESPONSE AS OMICRON SURGES, AND COULD THE DECADES-LONG BAN ON RENT CONTROL IN THE STATE SOON BE OVERTURNED?

THAT'S TOMORROW AT 7:00, ON "TALKING POLITICS."

I'LL BE BACK NEXT WEEK.

THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND PLEASE STAY SAFE.

Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org ♪♪