♪♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

FROM GAZA TO UKRAINE AND BEYOND, WE TAKE A HARD LOOK AT THE SUFFERING OF CIVILIANS TRAPPED IN WAR ZONES.

WITH MARTIN GRIFFITHS, U.N. HUMANITARIAN CHIEF.

>>> THEN, TAIWAN VOTERS HAVE SPOKEN, BUT WHAT EFFECT WILL THE RESULT HAVE ON CHINA?

JOURNALIST EMILY WOO JOINS US FROM TAIPEI.

>>> ALSO, MEET SANDRA HULLER, THE ACTRESS WHO STARS IN TWO OF THE AWARD SEASON'S BUZZIEST CONTENDERS, "THE ZONE OF INTEREST" AND "ANATOMY OF A FALL."

>>> PLUS AS IOWA CAUCUSERS GATHER, WE SPEAK WITH A NATIONAL REPORTER.

♪♪ >> Announcer: "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUSS, MARK J. BLESHNER, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

HOUTHIS FIRED A BALLISTIC MISSILE AT A U.S.

VESSEL OFF THE COAST OF YEMEN TODAY, SHOWING THAT THEY'RE STILL FIGHTING, EVEN AFTER U.S.-LED AIR STRIKES, ADDING TO FEARS THE ISRAEL-HAMAS WAR COULD EXPAND.

AFTER 100 DAYS OF THIS WAR, THE TOLL ON CIVILIANS KEEPS GETTING WORSE.

THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION WARNS GAZA COULD BE ON THE BRINK OF FAMINE.

WITH THE ENTIRE POPULATION, MORE THAN TWO MILLION PEOPLE, SUFFERING FROM AN ACUTE SHORTAGE OF FOOD, WATER, AND MEDICAL ASSISTANCE.

THE UNITED NATIONS IS DESPERATELY TRYING TO PLUG THE AID GAP HERE AND IN OTHER WAR ZONES.

MARTIN GRIFFITHS, UNDERSECRETARY GENERAL FOR HUMANITARIAN AFFAIRS, TWEETED ABOUT UKRAINE TODAY, SAYING, "REMEMBER UKRAINE.

WE DO.

PEOPLE CONTINUE TO FACE DEATH AND DISPLACEMENT AS HOMES, HOSPITALS, AND SCHOOLS ARE DESTROYED."

WE SPOKE ABOUT THE ALARMING RISE OF WAR AROUND THE WORLD AMID THE FAILURE OF DIPLOMACY WHEN HE JOINED ME FROM U.N. HQ IN GENEVA.

MARTIN GRIFFITHS, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

LOOK, WE'RE GOING TO OBVIOUSLY TALK ABOUT THE IMPORTANT MATTER OF UKRAINE, BUT FIRST TO THE BREAKING NEWS.

YET MORE MILITARY ACTION IN THE RED SEA AND STRIKES ALSO BY THE U.S. AND THE UK ON THE HOUTHIS IN YEMEN.

YOU USED TO BE THE SPECIAL ENVOY FOR RELIEF THERE, AND YOU WERE VERY INSTRUMENTAL IN BROKERING SOME KIND OF CESSATION OF HOSTILITIES.

WHAT IS YOUR BIGGEST CONCERN ABOUT THE CURRENT STATE OF PLAY.

>> LOOK, YEMEN, CHRISTIANE, AS YOU KNOW, BECAUSE WE'VE TALKED ABOUT THIS BEFORE, WAS ONE OF THOSE FEW, PERHAPS THE ONLY PLACE IN THE WORLD WHERE WE ALL HAD SOME HOPES OF REAL PEACE AFTER SIX OR SEVEN YEARS OF TERRIBLE WAR.

AND THAT IS BEING SNATCHED AWAY FROM US BY THESE CIRCUMSTANCES, AND I'M NOT BLAMING ONE SIDE OR THE OTHER.

I CAN UNDERSTAND WHY THOSE STRIKES HAPPENED AND SO FORTH.

I CAN UNDERSTAND, ALTHOUGH NOT AGREE WITH THE HOUTHIS' REACTION TO IT.

BUT IT'S ONE MORE TERRIBLE CONSEQUENCE -- I MEAN, IT'S A REALLY SERIOUS CONSEQUENCE OF THE WAR IN GAZA, ISN'T IT?

THAT WE SHOULD LOSE SIGHT OF ONE CONFLICT WHERE PEOPLE IN YEMEN HAD A REAL CHANCE OF CHANGING THEIR LIVES AND BEING ABLE TO GO TO WORK SAFELY EVERY MORNING.

LET'S STILL HOPE THAT CAN BE BROUGHT BACK, BUT THAT WOULD BE MY MAIN FOCUS.

>> AND JUST LET'S NOT FORGET THAT YEMEN, BEFORE THIS GAZA SITUATION, WAS ONE OF THE WORST, POOREST PLACES IN THE WORLD, AND EVEN NOW, THE VAST MAJORITY, THE VAST MAJORITY, 90% OF THE POPULATION OF YEMEN RELIES ON FOOD AID THAT ARRIVES VIA SEA.

WE'VE STATED THAT.

BUT WHAT I WANT TO ASK YOU, GIVEN, YOU KNOW, HOW THE GAZA THING IS HAPPENING, THE BOMBARDMENT OF YEMEN DURING THE WAR, THE BOMBARDMENT OF THE HOUTHIS BY THE SAUDI COALITION AIDED BY THE UNITED STATES, ET CETERA, WAS DESIGNED TO CRUSH AN IRAN-BASED PROXY.

IT DIDN'T DO THAT, DID IT?

ARE THERE CAUTIONARY LESSONS TO BE TOLD FROM THAT SIX-YEAR WAR?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, I'M NOT A MILITARY MAN, BUT I DO THINK, QUITE STRONGLY, THAT USING SORT OF HIGH-TECH MILITARY METHODS OR EVEN THE GROUND FORCE ASSAULT METHODS WE'RE SEEING IN GAZA TO ROOT OUT A TERRORIST GROUP WELL ENTRENCHED BOTH IN SINAI AND YEMEN AND IN SOUTHERN GAZA NOW, TWO TERRORIST GROUPS.

I DON'T THINK THE HOUTHIS HAVE BEEN FORMALLY DESIGNATED, BUT TWO EXTREMIST GROUPS.

WE HAVEN'T SEEN EITHER OF THOSE WORK VERY EASILY, AND WHAT WE HAVE SEEN IN BOTH CASES IS, OF COURSE, THAT AWFUL EUPHEMISTICALLY CALLED COLLATERAL DAMAGE, AND IT'S PARTICULARLY BAD IN GAZA BECAUSE OF THE HIGH PROPORTION OF CHILDREN, OF COURSE, WHO HAVE SUFFERED AS A RESULT OF THAT.

SO, NO, I THINK THE HOPE THAT WE HAD AND THAT YOU AND I DISCUSSED BEFORE, THAT THE ISRAELI IDF APPROACH IN SOUTHERN GAZA WAS GOING TO BE MORE SURGICAL, MORE PRECISE, MORE TARGETED ON SPECIFIC TARGETS OF HAMAS AND WHO CAN BLAME THEM FOR THAT, WE HAVEN'T SEEN IT.

WE HAVEN'T SEEN IT HAPPEN.

>> AND IN THE MEANTIME -- >> I THINK IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO MAKE THAT WORK.

>> AND IN THE MEANTIME, WHAT WE ARE HEARING -- SO, I WANT YOU TO TELL ME, IN YOUR POSITION AS RELIEF CHIEF, THERE ARE A NUMBER OF U.N. AID AGENCIES, WFP AND OTHERS, WHICH APPARENTLY, YOU KNOW, SOME 30 U.N. OFFICIALS HAVE CRUNCHED NUMBERS, HAVE LOOKED AT WHAT'S GOING ON AND ARE BASICALLY SAYING THAT GAZA EXHIBITS REALLY EITHER FAMINE OR IMMEDIATE PRE-FAMINE CONDITIONS RIGHT NOW AND THAT THE MAJORITY OF THE POPULATION IS AT RISK, AND FURTHERMORE, THEY SAY THEY HAVEN'T SEEN ANYTHING LIKE THIS -- THIS IS THE U.N. -- IN THE LAST 20 YEARS ANYWHERE AROUND THE WORLD.

>> IT'S BEEN AN EXTRAORDINARY AND WHOLLY UNWELCOME ASPECT OF THE GAZAN WAR, CHRISTIANE, AS YOU SAY, THAT IT HAS BROUGHT FAMINE SO -- WITH SUCH INCREDIBLE SPEED TO THE FRONT OF OUR -- OF THE LINES.

THERE ARE, WHAT IS IT, JUST UNDER 400,000 PEOPLE IN THAT SECTION THAT IS TECHNICALLY CHARACTERIZED AS BEING AT RISK OF FAMINE.

THE MOST EXTREME CATEGORY OF FOOD INSECURITY.

AND AS YOU SAY, MANY U.N.

AGENCIES NOW, TODAY AND YESTERDAY, ARE SAYING, OF THAT 400,000, A GREAT MAJORITY OF THEM ARE ACTUALLY IN FAMINE, NOT JUST AT RISK OF FAMINE BUT IN FAMINE.

IF YOU TAKE THAT ALONGSIDE AND PUT IT ALONGSIDE THE DIFFICULTIES THAT WE'RE HAVING GETTING AID UP TO THE 300,000 PEOPLE STILL LIVING IN THE NORTH OF GAZA, WHO HAVE, OF COURSE, NOT HAD ANY HUMANITARIAN AID FOR SOME TIME, YOU REALLY, REALLY WORRY ABOUT THE PLIGHT OF THE FUTURE OF GAZANS AND YOU WORRY HUGELY ABOUT THE GENERATIONAL HATRED THAT IS GOING TO BE CREATED BY THESE FACTS.

AND THEREFORE, WE WORRY FOR THE SECURITY OF ISRAEL.

AS MUCH AS THE SECURITY OF GAZA.

>> ON THE HUMANITARIAN ISSUE, ISRAEL SAYS THAT THEY HAVE A NUMBER OF CROSSINGS OPEN, WHETHER FROM ISRAEL ITSELF OR FROM EGYPT, AND THAT, ACTUALLY, THEY PUT THE ONUS ON YOU AND THE HUMANITARIAN COMMUNITY.

THEY SAY, IF YOU CAN'T GET IT THERE FAST ENOUGH, THAT'S NOT ON THEM.

>> YES, I'VE HEARD THIS.

AND I DON'T FIND IT A FAIR JUDGMENT.

IT IS TRUE.

THERE ARE TWO ENTRY POINTS INTO GAZA.

ONE THROUGH THE RAFA CROSSING, THE OTHER THROUGH THE POINT THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT HAS BEEN GOOD ENOUGH TO OPEN UP TO TRAFFIC, AND THERE ARE GOOD PLANS TO INCREASE TRAFFIC THROUGH THERE.

BUT HERE'S THE POINT.

YOU CAN MAYBE GET TRUCKS IN, BUT IF YOU CAN NOT RELY ON DECONFLICTION OF ACCESS ROUTES TO PEOPLE IN NEED, IF YOU CAN NOT RELY ON HOSPITALS AT LEAST NOT BEING ATTACKED NEARBY, IF YOU CAN NOT RELY ON PEOPLE HAVING TO MOVE FROM ONE PLACE OF INSECURITY TO ANOTHER PLACE OF INSECURITY, THOSE ARE THE ISSUES THAT MAKE HUMANITARIAN AID DELIVERY -- IT'S NOT A MATTER OF THE NUMBER OF TRUCKS THAT CAN GET IN.

IT'S THE ACCESS INSIDE GAZA THAT INCLUDE THE ELEMENTS OF CONSTRAINT, AND THAT IS WHERE WE CONSISTENTLY AND MY SECRETARY GENERAL HAS CONSISTENTLY SAID, IT'S FINE AND WELL TO COUNT THE TRUCKS GOING IN, BUT THE STORY ONLY STARTS WITH THAT.

IT DOESN'T END THERE.

>> WELL, JUST TO BE CLEAR, BEFORE OCTOBER 7, 500 TRUCKS A DAY WERE GOING IN.

NOW, A MAXIMUM OF 127, AND U.S.

SENATOR CHRIS VAN HOLLEN TOLD ME HE PUTS IT ON THE AUTHORITIES.

HE SAID THE CHECKING MECHANISM IS SO DIFFICULT, AND THEY'RE CONSTANTLY HAVING TO BE SENT BACK.

>> WELL, THERE'S ALSO QUITE AN EXTENSIVE USE OF THE DUAL USE CATEGORY BY THOSE WHO ARE CHECKING THE TRUCKS.

AND WE HAVE HAD QUITE A LOT OF MEDICAL AND HEALTH EQUIPMENT, AND THEREFORE THE TRUCK IS SENT BACK AND NOT ALLOWED IN.

FINALLY, ON THIS, AND REFERRING TO YOUR 500 TRUCKS A DAY, WHAT WE ALL REMEMBER CLEARLY IS THAT 80% OF GAZAN SUSTENANCE PRIOR TO OCTOBER 7 WAS PRIVATE SECTOR.

AND WE HAVE ARGUED THROUGHOUT, PLEASE LET PRIVATE SECTOR OPERATE.

>> AND LET'S NOT FORGET THE WORDS OF THE DEFENSE MINISTER, WHICH WAS TO PUT A COMPLETE SIEGE ON FOOD, FUEL, YOU KNOW, WATER, AND THE REST OF IT, MEDICINE INTO GAZA RIGHT AFTER OCTOBER 7th.

I WANT TO SWITCH NOW BECAUSE IT'S ALSO A FALLOUT, TO UKRAINE.

IT SEEMS OBVIOUSLY UKRAINE HAS FALLEN OFF THE MAP.

AS I INTRODUCED YOU WITH YOUR TWEET, SAYING, HAS ANYBODY FORGOTTEN UKRAINE?

WE HAVEN'T.

WHAT ARE YOU DESPERATE FOR NOW?

WHAT ARE YOU TWEETING AND ASKING FOR NOW FOR UKRAINE?

>> WELL, WE'RE ASKING FOR JUST OVER $3 BILLION FOR HUMANITARIAN AID OPERATION FOR THIS YEAR, WHICH IS, BY THE WAY, ABOUT 6 OR $700 MILLION LESS THAN FOR LAST YEAR, SO WE TRIED TO PUSH IT DOWN TO SOMETHING MORE AFFORDABLE.

WE'RE VERY WORRIED AS TO WHETHER WE'RE GOING TO GET IT, BECAUSE THE COMPETITION FOR FUNDING ACROSS THE WORLD, BECAUSE OF GAZA AND SUDAN AND ELSEWHERE, IS VERY FIERCE.

THE WORRY, I THINK, THAT WE HAVE ABOUT UKRAINE IS THAT THE ABSENCE OF HUMANITARIAN AID FUNDING HAS BECOME AN ATTACK ON THE FABRIC OF SOCIETY OF UKRAINE ITSELF.

IT IS HUMANITARIAN AID WHICH IS LARGELY KEEPING COMMUNITIES ALIVE AND NOT JUST THROUGH FOOD OR MEDICINE BUT THROUGH PLACES OF WORK, PLACES OF COMMUNITY, SCHOOLS AND SO FORTH.

UKRAINE'S EXTRAORDINARILY RESILIENT SOCIETY IS UNDER GRAVE THREAT, AND OUR EMPHASIS TODAY IN THE LAUNCH OF THIS NEW APPEAL IS, FIRST OF ALL, PLEASE, FOR GOD'S SAKE, REMEMBER UKRAINE, AND WHILE WE'RE DOING IT, REMEMBER SUDAN AS WELL.

LET'S COME BACK TO THAT.

BUT REMEMBER THAT IN UKRAINE, WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS TO MAINTAIN COMMUNITIES AND THEIR COMMUNITY RESILIENCE.

THAT'S WHAT'S NEEDED.

>> JUST TO MENTION, ACCORDING TO THE U.N., 40% OF UKRAINIANS TODAY REQUIRE HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE THIS YEAR.

SO, YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT COMMUNITIES.

I WANT TO READ YOU SOMETHING, BECAUSE SO MANY PEOPLE WHO HAVE STAYED BEHIND, ESPECIALLY NEAR THE FRONT LINES, ARE THE ELDERLY.

YOU KNOW, THEY AREN'T ABLE OR WILLING TO MOVE.

IN "THE NEW YORK TIMES," HERE'S A QUOTE FROM THERE.

"UKRAINE'S ELDERLY ARE OFTEN THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO REMAIN ALONG THE COUNTRY'S HUNDREDS OF MILES OF FRONT LINE.

SOME WAITED THEIR ENTIRE LIVES TO ENJOY THEIR TWILIGHT YEARS, ONLY TO HAVE BEEN LEFT IN A PURGATORY OF LONELINESS."

I MIGHT ADD, AND INSECURITY AND DANGER.

WHAT ARE YOU HEARING, AND CAN YOU REACH THOSE COMMUNITIES?

>> DO YOU KNOW, ALONG WITH THIS AWFUL THEME THAT, AGAIN, YOU AND I HAVE DISCUSSED, WHICH IS THAT LEADERS TEND TO REACH FOR THE GUN AS THE FIRST OPTION TO RESOLVE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THEMSELVES, AND WE SEE IT IN SUDAN AND UKRAINE AND ELSEWHERE AND GAZA AND ELSEWHERE, ALONG WITH THAT, THE VIABILITY AND THE RESILIENCE OF COMMON HUMANITY IS EXTRAORDINARY.

THE WAY IN WHICH PEOPLE CLUTCH ON TO THEIR HOMES AND THEIR ASSETS AND THE COMMUNITIES THAT SURROUND THEM IS A UNIVERSAL TRUTH.

DID YOU KNOW THAT LAST YEAR -- I'M SURE YOU DID, OF COURSE, CHRISTIANE, LAST YEAR IN BRITAIN, THE PEOPLE OF THAT COUNTRY GAVE $12.7 BILLION TO CHARITY.

MUCH, MUCH MORE THAN THE GOVERNMENT AID PROGRAM.

I MEAN, HUMANITY HAS NOT BEEN LACKING.

HEROISM IS AS MUCH A FEATURE OF THE WAR IN GAZA AND UKRAINE AS IS THE CRUELTY THAT HAS GONE ALONG WITH THOSE WHO HAVE REACHED FOR THE GUN.

>> LET'S -- >> AND IT IS THAT HUMANITY WHICH DEFINES US, AND WHICH WE MUST RECOVER.

>> AND IT'S A REALLY GOOD NOTE TO END ON.

THANK YOU SO MUCH, MARTIN GRIFFITHS.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE, AGAIN.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR INVITING ME ON THE PROGRAM.

>>> NOW, IN THIS, THE BIGGEST ELECTION YEAR IN HISTORY, THE RESULTS ARE IN FOR THE FIRST MAJOR CONTEST.

TAIWAN'S VICE PRESIDENT, LAI CHING-TE IS THE NEW PRESIDENT-ELECT.

BEIJING MADE CLEAR ITS OPPOSITION TO LAI, WHO EMPHASIZES THE ISLAND'S DEMOCRATIC RIGHT TO DECIDE ITS OWN FUTURE, BUT THAT DIDN'T STOP 40% OF VOTERS FROM CHOOSING LAI AND HIS RULING DEMOCRATIC PROGRESSIVE PARTY >> Translator: THE REPUBLIC OF CHINA AND TAIWAN WILL CONTINUE TO WALK SIDE-BY-SIDE WITH DECIMAL DEMOCRACIES FROM AROUND THE WORLD.

>> BEIJING RESPONDED BY ASSERTING THAT TAIWAN REMAINS PART OF CHINA.

>> Translator: TAIWAN HAS NEVER BEEN A COUNTRY, NOT IN THE PAST AND CERTAINLY NOT IN THE FUTURE.

TAIWAN INDEPENDENCE HAS NEVER BEEN POSSIBLE.

IT HAS NOT BEEN POSSIBLE IN THE PAST, AND IT WILL NEVER BE POSSIBLE IN THE FUTURE.

ANYONE ON THE ISLAND OF TAIWAN WHO WANTS TO PURSUE TAIWAN TERRITORY WILL BE SEVERELY PUNISHED BY HISTORY AND LAW.

>> EMILY WOO IS A JOURNALIST AND PODCAST PRODUCER AND COFOUNDER OF GHOST ISLAND MEDIA.

SHE'S JOINING ME FROM TAIPEI FOR SOME ANALYSIS.

EMILY, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

WE PLAYED, YOU KNOW, THE TWO SOUND BYTES THERE.

I THOUGHT LAI WAS ACTUALLY QUITE MEASURED AND THE CHINESE FOREIGN MINISTER WAS QUITE CLEAR.

WHAT DO YOU THINK -- HOW DO YOU INTERPRET THE RESULTS, THAT THAT NUMBER OF PEOPLE VOTED, HE WON, BUT THEY DID NOT -- THE PARTY DID NOT KEEP ITS MAJORITY IN THE PARLIAMENT.

>> FIRST OF ALL, THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

IT'S A GREAT HONOR TO SPEAK TO YOU HERE TODAY.

IT'S BEEN A BIG, BIG WEEKEND HERE IN TAIPEI.

THERE WAS A LOT OF NERVOUSNESS GOING UP TO THE ELECTION, WONDERING WHAT WOULD HAPPEN.

EVERY TIME WE HAVE AN ELECTION, OF COURSE, CHINA SPEAKS OUT.

CHINA WILL ASSERT ITS AGGRESSION AGAIN, AND IF YOU LOOK AT THE RESULT, 40%, I THINK WHAT IT SAYS ABOUT TAIWAN AT THIS MOMENT IS THAT TAIWAN HAS VOTED FOR THE -- TO BE IN THE PRESIDENCY FOR THE THIRD TIME.

THIS IS UNPRECEDENTED.

PEOPLE ARE -- WOULD LIKE TO CONTINUE THE DIRECTION OF THE COUNTRY AS IT HAS BEEN IN THE PAST EIGHT YEARS.

HOWEVER, THE DDP HAS COME UNDER CRITICISM FOR SOME DOMESTIC POLICIES AND DOMESTIC ISSUES, AND PEOPLE ARE LOOKING TO BALANCE OUT WHAT HAPPENS DOMESTICALLY, AND SO I THINK THE OTHER PERCENTAGE SIGNALS THAT PART OF THE SOCIETY, THEY'RE LOOKING FOR AN ALTERNATIVE, AND THIS TIME AROUND, WHAT'S REALLY SPECIAL IS THAT EVEN THOUGH THERE'S ALWAYS BEEN A THIRD FORCE, A THIRD PARTY THAT'S AT PLAY IN TAIWAN, FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME, A THIRD CANDIDATE THAT'S THERE FROM A VERY NEW PARTY RECEIVED 26%, AND THAT'S GOING TO BE VERY IMPORTANT LATER ON.

THAT SENT THE SIGNAL THAT VOTERS WOULD LIKE TO SEE MORE DOMESTICALLY, OF COURSE.

>> AND IN TERMS OF RELATIONS WITH CHINA, YOU HEARD HOW LAI REFERRED TO IT.

REPUBLIC OF TAIWAN CHINA.

THAT'S WHAT HE SAID.

SO, VERY CLEAR THAT HE'S NOT, YOU KNOW, SPEAKING ABOUT, AT LEAST VERBALLY, ANY OTHER ENTITY.

SO, IS HE ALSO GIVING A SIGNAL, AND DO YOU BELIEVE THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HIM AND HIS POLICIES OR HIS TONE OR HIS METHOD, THAN THE PERSON HE'S REPLACING?

THE FORMER -- YOU KNOW, THE PRESIDENT WHO'S BEEN IN POWER FOR THE LAST TWO ROUNDS.

>> SO, LAI HAS SAID THAT HE WILL CONTINUE THE FOREIGN POLICY OR WILL CONTINUE FOR TAIWAN AS IT HAS BEEN FOR THE LAST EIGHT YEARS.

HE IS PRO-STATUS QUO, AS MOST OF THE POPULATION HERE.

SO, YEAH.

>> AND WHAT ABOUT -- WHAT DOES TAIWAN THINK ABOUT INTERNATIONAL SUPPORT?

WE KNOW THAT TWO SENIOR BIPARTISAN, YOU KNOW, TEAM OF AMERICAN OFFICIALS HAVE BEEN DISPATCHED THERE, AS THEY OFTEN ARE BEFORE AN ELECTION TO MEET WITH THE INCOMING AND OUTGOING PRESIDENTS.

WE KNOW THAT THE PACIFIC ISLAND NATION OF NAURU HAS SAID THAT IT IS SEVERING DIPLOMATIC TIES WITH TAIWAN AND NOW TAIWAN IS LEFT WITH ONLY 12 NATIONS THAT STILL HOLD DIPLOMATIC TIES.

SO, WHAT ARE YOU FEELING FROM THE OUTSIDE, GIVEN THE CONSTANT REMINDERS BY BEIJING THAT, DON'T MESS WITH US?

>> IT IS QUITE TOUGH.

HONESTLY, IT'S QUITE TOUGH TO BE A PART OF A COUNTRY THAT YOU HAVE A GIANT NEXT DOOR THAT'S CONSTANTLY USING WHAT IT CAN, INTERNATIONAL INFLUENCE, TO KEEP YOUR INTERNATIONAL -- TO KEEP OUR INTERNATIONAL INFLUENCE LIMITED.

IT IS VERY, VERY FRUSTRATING.

AND I THINK EVERY TIME WE LOSE AN ALLY, WE'RE BUMMED OUT.

OF COURSE WE'RE BUMMED OUT.

BUT I THINK THE PEOPLE HERE -- THERE'S NO -- I THINK WE SHIFTED AWAY FROM FINGER-POINTING AND TO STAND FOR UNITY AND SAY THIS IS WHY WE NEED -- TAIWAN NEEDS TO HAVE MORE VOICES INTERNATIONALLY.

AND THIS IS WHERE UNOFFICIAL PARTNERSHIPS COME IN.

AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT, FROM GOVERNMENT TO PRIVATE TO THE CIVIC SOCIETY LEVEL, EVERYBODY'S WORKING REALLY HARD TO TRY TO GET TAIWAN'S VOICE OUT IN THE WORLD, BECAUSE OF THE OTHER BIG VOICE, WHICH IS CHINA, WHICH HAS BEEN VERY LOUD ABOUT ITS NARRATIVE ABOUT WHAT TAIWAN IS.

>> YOU HEARD WHAT FOREIGN MINISTER WANG YI SAID.

IF ANYBODY TRIES TO CONSIDER TAIWAN INDEPENDENT OR SAY IT OR WORK FOR IT, THEY WILL BE PUNISHED, HE SAID, BY HISTORY AND BY THE LAW.

HOW DO YOU ALL INTERPRET THAT, GIVEN EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED, FOR INSTANCE, IN HONG KONG?

DIFFERENT SYSTEM, BUT NONETHELESS, HONG KONG, SINCE 2020, HAS BEEN A VERY DIFFERENT PLACE.

>> WHENEVER WE HEAR THAT FROM CHINA, AGAIN, IT IS VERY FRUSTRATING.

THEY ARE WRITING OUT OUR RIGHT TO BE A COUNTRY AT THE MOMENT.

TAIWAN, AS IT EXISTS TODAY, IT IS AN INDEPENDENT NATION.

WE HAVE OUR OWN PRESIDENT.

WE HAVE OUR OWN CURRENCY, MILITARY, CONSTITUTION, SO IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO HEAR THAT OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

BUT I THINK, OVER TIME, OVER THE LAST TEN YEARS, I THINK THE STATUS OF TAIWAN, THE REALITY OF TAIWAN HAS BEEN ONE KNOWN INTERNATIONALLY.

I THINK THERE'S A LOT MORE EMPATHY AND UNDERSTANDING ON WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE NOW VERSUS, I THINK, THE LAST DECADE WHERE CHINA WAS THE ONLY STORY THAT PEOPLE UNDERSTOOD, AND SO THEIR NARRATIVE WAS THE ONLY ONE THAT WAS -- THAT WAS HEARD, AND -- BUT THE REALITY, ALWAYS LIVING HERE, HAS BEEN ALWAYS DIFFERENT.

YOU'RE STRUGGLING TO EXIST INTERNATIONALLY.

SO, WHENEVER WE HEAR THAT, WE, YOU KNOW, AS TAIWANESE, WE HAVE TO CONTINUOUSLY PUSH BACK AND ALSO LET THE WORLD KNOW THAT THAT'S THE OTHER REALITY.

ON NATIONAL SECURITY LAW, REALLY UNFORTUNATE WHAT HAPPENED IN HONG KONG.

OVER IN TAIWAN, THERE IS NO CENSORSHIP.

THERE IS COMPLETE FREEDOM OF SPEECH, FREE PRESS, SO NATIONAL SECURITY LAW COMES INTO PLAY FOR, I THINK, FOR RIGHTS WORKERS, FOR PEOPLE IN GOVERNMENT DEMOCRACY.

YEAH.

IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT -- >> OKAY, FINAL QUESTION.

WHO IS LAI?

HE STARTED OFF PROFESSIONALLY AS A DOCTOR, AND IN THE MID '90s, WENT INTO POLITICS.

IN OUR LAST, YOU KNOW, 40 SECONDS, GIVE US A BRIEF PROFILE.

>> YEAH.

HE'S SOMEBODY WHO, HE GREW UP IN A MINING TOWN IN TAIPEI, LOST HIS FATHER DURING HIS CHILDHOOD, AND HE GREW UP TO BE REALLY -- A REALLY HARDWORKING PERSON, AND HE BECAME A DOCTOR, AND THEN HE ENTERED POLITICS.

HE WAS A MAYOR IN A CITY, WHICH IS REALLY IMPORTANT BECAUSE IT IS A MAJOR DPP BASE.

AND HE'S BEEN OUR VICE PRESIDENT FOR THE PAST FOUR YEARS.

NOW, HE'S ALSO PARTNERED UP WITH VICE PRESIDENT-ELECT WHO WAS MOST RECENTLY OUR TOP ENVOY TO THE U.S. >> ALL RIGHT.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

EMILY WOO, THANKS FOR JOINING US FROM TAIPEI.

>>> IN HOLLYWOOD, IT IS, OF COURSE, AWARDS SEASON.

AT LAST NIGHT'S CRITIC'S CHOICE AWARDS, "OPPENHEIMER" NOTCHED UP A BIG WIN.

THE BEST FOREIGN FILM WENT TO THE FRENCH COURTROOM THRILLER, "ANATOMY OF A FALL."

THAT FILM IS ONE OF TWO LEADING CONTENDERS STARRING MY NEXT GUEST, SANDRA HULLER.

THE OTHER ONE, THE CHILLING HOLOCAUST DRAMA CALLED "THE ZONE OF INTEREST" IS BRITAIN'S ENTRY FOR BEST INTERNATIONAL FEATURE FILM AT THIS YEAR'S OSCARS.

WHAT AN EXTRAORDINARY YEAR IT HAS BEEN FOR SANDRA HULLER, WHO'S JOINING ME NOW FROM LEIPZIG IN GERMANY.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, SANDRA.

YOUR ROLES HAVE JUST BEEN STANDOUT, AND WE KNOW THAT YOU WON THE BEST ACTRESS AT CANNES, AND THE FILM WON THE BEST FILM, THE PALME D'OR.

BUT YOU HAVE SAID -- YOU'RE GERMAN -- THAT YOU NEVER WANTED TO PLAY A FASCIST OR A NAZI AS SO MANY HOLLYWOOD DIRECTORS OR PRODUCERS OR WRITERS OFTEN OFFER TO GERMANS.

TELL ME WHY NOT AND WHY YOU DID IN THIS FILM?

>> I THINK IT HAD TO DO -- WELL, FIRST OF ALL, THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

IT'S REALLY AN HONOR.

I THINK IT HAD TO DO WITH -- IT'S CONNECTED TO JONATHAN GLAZER, THAT'S THE FIRST THING, AND I THINK HIS ARTISTIC CHOICES THAT HE MADE IN THE BEGINNING, THAT HE TOLD US ABOUT, CHRIS AND ME, IN THE FIRST MEETING, THE WAY THAT HE WOULD PLACE THE CAMERAS, THAT HE WOULD SHOOT THE FILM IN THE ORIGINAL -- ALMOST THE ORIGINAL PLACE, THAT THEY WOULD REBUILD THE HOUSE OF THE HESS ES, THAT THEY WOULD PLANT THE GARDEN SO IT DIDN'T SEEM TO THIS PERIOD OF TIME, AND THAT INTERESTED ME VERY MUCH.

AND ALSO, HE WAS VERY CLEAR ABOUT THAT HE HAD THE SAME FEELINGS THAT I HAD.

SO, WE KIND OF -- THAT KIND OF MATCHED.

>> SO, LET'S JUST EXPLAIN.

JONATHAN GLAZER IS THE DIRECTOR.

HE'S BRITISH.

AND THIS FILM IS EXTRAORDINARY, BECAUSE IT CHILLS YOU WITH THE HORRORS OF THE HOLOCAUST WHILE NEVER SHOWING INSIDE THE CAMP.

AND WE CONSTANTLY WATCH YOU, MRS. HESS, AND YOUR HUSBAND, MR. RUDOLPH HESS, THE CAMP COMMANDANT, LIVING AN ASPIRATIONAL MIDDLE CLASS LIFE WHILE THE HORROR WAS GOING ON ACROSS THE WALL.

SO, TELL US A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT -- I'VE NEVER SEEN THIS HORROR PORTRAYED IN THIS WAY.

>> I THINK WHAT JONATHAN WANTED TO ACHIEVE WAS A CERTAIN SORT OF DISCOMFORT IN THE AUDIENCE, BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES WHEN YOU SEE THINGS AND YOU CAN -- I DON'T KNOW -- THERE WAS -- WE TALKED A LOT ABOUT THE EXPLOITATION OF THE TOPIC, IF YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN.

AND THE -- WHAT IT WOULD MEAN TO SHOW THE SUFFERING OF THE VICTIMS AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN, WHICH WOULD MEAN THAT OTHER PEOPLE WOULD HAVE TO EMBODY THAT AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN, AND IT WOULD RETRAUMATIZE AGAIN AND AGAIN, YOU KNOW?

SO, IT WAS A CONSTANT -- THINGS WERE REPRODUCED ALL THE TIME, AND HE WAS INTERESTED IN OUR CONNECTION TO THE PERPETRATORS, WHAT CONNECTS US TO THEM, WHAT IS THERE NOT SO MUCH DIFFERENCE, MAYBE, BECAUSE WHAT WOULD WE DO TO HAVE A LITTLE COMFORT IN OUR LIVES, TO HAVE OUR LITTLE GARDEN AND TO SEND OUR CHILDREN TO SCHOOL AND NOT BE BOTHERED BY ANYTHING THAT GOES ON BEHIND THE WALL.

SO, HE CHOSE THIS PERSPECTIVE TO, YEAH, TO SHOW THAT IT IS -- YEAH.

THEY ARE CONNECTED TO US.

>> AND IT IS POSSIBLE TO BE THERE AND TURN AWAY.

AND SINCE YOU MENTIONED THE WALL AND THE GARDEN, WHICH ABUTS AUSCHWITZ, I WANT TO PLAY A LITTLE CLIP, WHICH IS YOU WITH YOUR MOTHER IN THE FILM, TALKING ABOUT, ESSENTIALLY, WHAT A LOVELY PLACE YOU HAVE.

>> I WONDER IF YOU AGREE THAT JUST THAT SCENE, AND INCLUDING THE FACT THAT, YOU KNOW, THE DIRECTOR USED SOUND, SOUND OF WHAT I THINK ARE THE FURNACES, SOUND OF PEOPLE'S CRIES, AND NOT THE VIDEO, AS YOU SAY, IT'S EVEN MORE CHILLING, MAYBE, THAN ACTUALLY SEEING WHAT WE'VE SEEN IN HISTORICAL FOOTAGE AND, AS YOU SAY, OTHER FILMS THAT MAY HAVE EXPLOITED THE HOLOCAUST.

>> I THINK THAT THE -- I THINK THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE, NOT ALL OF THEM, AS WE CAN SEE TODAY, ARE FAMILIAR WITH THESE PICTURES, SO THE NOISES, I THINK, SORT OF TRIGGER A MEMORY THAT EVERYBODY HAS, AND ALSO, IT KIND OF REACHES DEEP INTO THE SUBCONSCIOUS.

THAT'S WHAT JOHNNY BERN KIND OF CREATED WITH HIS SOUND WORK, WHICH IS INCREDIBLE.

I THINK THE RESEARCH HE DID TO FIND THESE NOISES AND RECREATE THEM AND THE ACCURACY THAT IS IN HIS WORK IS JUST ASTONISHING.

SO, YES, I THINK IT GOES BEYOND THE INTELLECT AND ANYTHING THAT WE CAN -- >> AND YOU SAID THAT I THINK MAYBE THE DIRECTOR OR YOU -- YOU DID IT.

THEY ASKED YOU ALL AS GERMAN ACTORS TO EXAMINE YOUR FAMILIES, YOUR CONNECTIONS, TO KNOW, YOU KNOW, MORE ABOUT YOUR OWN HISTORY.

IS THAT CORRECT?

>> NOW, I THINK SOME OF US DID THAT.

I DID THAT, BECAUSE I REALIZED THAT I NEVER DID IT BEFORE.

THAT IS SOMETHING THAT GERMANS SOMETIMES DON'T DO.

AND UNFORTUNATELY, SOME OF MY ANCESTORS DON'T LIVE ANYMORE, AND THEY WEREN'T ABLE, REALLY NOT ABLE, LIKE, I FELT LIKE PHYSICALLY NOT ABLE TO SPEAK ABOUT WHAT THEY SAW AND WHAT THEY'VE EXPERIENCED.

SO, THERE ARE SOME GAPS, BUT EVERYBODY THAT I ASKED, OF COURSE, GAVE ME THEIR HONEST OPINION AND THEIR HONEST MEMORY.

>> CAN I ASK YOU -- LET'S SWITCH, BECAUSE IT IS ABSOLUTELY EXTRAORDINARY THAT YOU ARE IN THESE TWO PHENOMENAL FILMS BECAUSE "ANATOMY OF A FALL" IS THE OTHER FILM YOU ARE IN THAT, AS I SAID, WON AT CANNES, AND IN FACT, "THE ZONE OF INTEREST" CAME IN KIND OF SECOND AT CANNES.

SO, IT'S VERY, VERY -- I MEAN, YOU'RE THERE.

YOU'RE HERE, THERE, AND ABSOLUTELY EVERYWHERE.

AND THE LANGUAGES, THERE ARE SO MANY LANGUAGES.

THERE'S GERMAN, FRENCH, AND ENGLISH, AND YOU HAVE TO SPEAK THEM ALL.

I MEAN, KIND OF A STRANGE QUESTION OR I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S STRANGE, BUT I DON'T KNOW WHETHER THERE'S AN ANSWER.

WAS IT DIFFICULT TO PLAY THESE TWO DIFFERENT ROLES, OR WERE THERE SIMILARITIES IN THE CHARACTERS?

>> YOU KNOW, IN THE END, THEY'RE ALL HUMAN, SO THERE MUST BE SOMETHING THAT CONNECTS THEM.

BUT I DIDN'T FEEL THAT WAY.

AND THERE WAS A GAP BETWEEN THEM, A VERY LONG GAP, WHERE I MADE ANOTHER FILM, SO THERE WERE THREE FILMS IN A ROW THAT, OF COURSE, I HAD TO CONNECT THEM SOMEHOW TO MAKE SENSE OF ALL THE MOVEMENT, YOU KNOW, BETWEEN THE CHARACTERS.

NO, BUT I -- THE QUESTION COMES UP VERY OFTEN BECAUSE THERE ARE TWO MOTHERS, AND IF I FELT A CERTAIN KIND OF SENSE OF MOTHERHOOD, AND I CAN CLEARLY SAY, NO.

NOW, "ANATOMY OF A FALL" IS DESCRIBED, YOU KNOW, IN THE BLURB AS A FRENCH COURTROOM THRILLER, WHICH IT IS, A LOT OF IT.

BUT IT IS ALSO THE STORY OF A WIFE AND THEIR HUSBAND AND THEIR ONE CHILD AND YOU TWO, AS A COUPLE, ARE WRITERS.

YOU, THE WIFE, WHO'S ALSO CALLED SANDRA, LIKE YOU ARE, IS A BETTER WRITER, AND MORE REWARDED AND CLEARLY THAT CAUSES SOME PROBLEMS WITH THE HUSBAND.

HERE IS -- HERE IS A LITTLE CLIP OF YOU TWO.

>> I'M NOT THE ONE WHO PUT YOU WHERE YOU ARE.

I'VE NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.

YOU'RE NOT SACRIFICING YOURSELF AS YOU SAY.

YOU CHOOSE TO SIT ON THE SIDELINES BECAUSE YOU'RE AFRAID, BECAUSE YOUR PRIDE MAKES YOUR HEAD EXPLODE BEFORE IT CAN EVEN COME UP WITH A GEM OF AN IDEA, AND YOU WAKE UP AND YOU'RE 40, AND YOU NEED SOMEONE TO BLAME, AND YOU'RE THE ONE TO BLAME.

>> SO, THAT'S BEEN WRITTEN A LOT ABOUT THAT SCENE.

I WONDER HOW YOU PERCEIVE IT.

IT'S QUITE RARE THAT WIVES GO THERE, YOU KNOW, AND ACTUALLY PUT THE KIND OF WHINING HUSBAND ON THE SPOT.

>> YES.

AND I HAVE TO TELL YOU THAT FELT REALLY LIBERATING TO DO THAT.

I WAS VERY HAPPY TO DO THAT.

AND AT THE SAME TIME, OF COURSE, VERY PAINFUL, BECAUSE THESE TWO REALLY LOVE EACH OTHER, I'M SURE ABOUT THAT.

AND I'M ALSO NOT SURE IF SHE'S A BETTER WRITER.

I THINK MAYBE SHE HAS ANOTHER FORM OF DISCIPLINE OR ANOTHER ROUTINE OR SOMETHING THAT I THINK HE CAN WRITE.

THAT'S WHAT SHE SAYS TOO.

IT'S JUST THAT HE MADE -- HE MADE A DIFFERENT DECISION, AND NOW HE'S SUFFERING FROM IT, AND HE'S NOT ABLE TO CHANGE IT BACK.

YEAH.

>> AND THEN, I MEAN, THIS IS THE -- THE WHOLE STORY IS THAT HE THEN -- HE FALLS OUT A WINDOW, AND IT'S SEEN BY THE SON, WHO IS PARTIALLY SIGHTED, IF I'M NOT MISTAKEN, AND THAT, IN ITSELF, CREATES A HUGE DRAMA.

WHO DID IT?

DID YOU DO IT?

YOU'RE OBVIOUSLY ACCUSED OF DOING IT.

YOU'RE TAKEN TO COURT.

AND THE SON, WHICH I FIND SO DIFFICULT TO WATCH, IS IMPLICATED.

HE HAS TO BE A WITNESS IN COURT.

TALK TO ME ABOUT THAT.

>> WELL, I THINK I HAVE TO CORRECT THIS A BIT.

THE SON DOESN'T SEE THE FATHER FALL OUT.

HE FINDS HIM IN FRONT OF THE HOUSE, AND HE CAN NOT SEE VERY CLEARLY, SO HE FINDS HIM WITH THE HELP OF THE DOG, SO NOBODY REALLY KNOWS WHAT HAPPENS, AND IN COURT, WE SEE ALL SORTS OF VARIATIONS OF WHAT COULD HAVE HAPPENED, WHICH IS VERY SMART.

HE SHOWS ALL THE VERSIONS OF THE STORY WITH THE HELP OF PAINTINGS OR WITH EXPERIMENTS AND WITH A LOT OF EXPERTS THAT TALK ABOUT IT, AND OF COURSE, THE SON CHOOSES TO BE THERE.

HE WOULDN'T NEED TO BE THERE, BUT HE WANTS TO KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON BECAUSE HE HAS THE SAME QUESTIONS, LIKE THE AUDIENCE.

I THINK JUSTINE WANTED TO TELL THE STORY ABOUT THE SON IN THE FIRST PLACE AND WHAT IT WOULD FEEL LIKE IF WE WOULD, LIKE, FIND OUT ABOUT THE STORY OF OUR PARENTS TOO LATE OR NOT IN THE MOMENT.

LIKE, YOU KNOW, WHAT I REALLY ENJOYED IN THE SCRIPT, ALSO, IS THAT NORMALLY, WHEN A COUPLE IS FIGHTING, YOU SEE THE CHILD SOMEWHERE, THE STAIRS, WATCHING THEM AND BEING AFRAID.

SHE DOESN'T DO THAT.

SHE LETS THE CHILD LEARN ABOUT HIS PARENTS IN THE COURTROOM, WHICH IS SOMEWHAT CRUEL, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, IT FELT SO MUCH ABOUT GROWING UP AND ABOUT WHAT RESPONSIBILITY IS AND THE QUESTION OF TRUTH AND HOW WE CREATE IT AND ESPECIALLY IN A COURTROOM.

>> YEAH, IT'S SO, SO DRAMATIC.

I WAS JUST MESMERIZED BY ALL OF YOUR PERFORMANCES, BUT HIM -- HE WAS JUST EXTRAORDINARY.

AND JUSTINE IS, OF COURSE, THE DIRECTOR.

YOU -- I THINK YOU'VE SPENT A LOT OF YOUR TIME IF NOT MOST OF YOUR TIME, IN THEATER, AND I JUST WONDERED WHAT YOU MAKE OF THIS ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF SUCCESS AND ATTENTION AND AWARDS BUZZ, NOT FOR ONE, BUT FOR TWO FILMS IN ONE YEAR OF SUCH INCREDIBLE QUALITY AND DRAMA.

>> YOU KNOW, THERE IS THE INSIDE WORLD, AND THEN THERE'S THE OUTSIDE WORLD, AND SOMETIMES THEY MATCH, AND SOMETIMES THEY GET A BIT, YOU KNOW, THEY DON'T MATCH, REALLY.

SO, I TRY TO ENJOY THIS THE BEST THAT I CAN.

IT IS A LOT OF WORK.

I HAVE TO ADMIT.

IT IS GREAT TO HAVE SUCH -- I GET A LOT OF LOVE AND RESPECT FROM PEOPLE.

THAT'S REALLY, REALLY WONDERFUL.

AND AT THE SAME TIME, YOU KNOW, WHEN WE ARE NOT CAREFUL, THE OUTSIDE WORLD BECOMES A BIT MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE INSIDE WORLD, AND THIS IS WHAT WE DON'T WANT.

SO, I JUST TRY TO BE CAREFUL WITH ALL OF THIS.

IT IS A PERIOD OF MY LIFE, AND IT WILL CHANGE AGAIN SOON, BUT WE DON'T KNOW.

>> ARE YOU GOING TO DO MORE FILMS?

ARE YOU GOING TO DO MORE THEATER?

WHAT'S YOUR NEXT PROJECT?

>> I REALLY TRIED TO KEEP THE BALANCE, BECAUSE I REALLY NEED THE THEATER.

I REALLY NEED IT TO GROW.

AND SOMETIMES IT WORKS TO KEEP THE BALANCE, AND SOMETIMES IT DOESN'T.

BUT THE NEXT -- THE THING THAT I DO IS TWO AUSTRIAN FILMS THIS YEAR.

I SHOOT IN SPRING, SUMMER, AND AUTUMN.

SO, BASICALLY -- >> EAGERLY ANTICIPATED.

SANDRA HULLER, THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED.

>>> NOW, AN IMPORTANT BELLWETHER FOR THE U.S. PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION, MARTIN LUTHER KING DAY IS ALSO IOWA CAUCUS DAY FOR GOP PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES.

DESPITE FACING MANY CRIMINAL CHARGES, FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP ENTERED AS THE FRONT RUNNER WITH GOVERNOR RON DeSANTIS AND FORMER GOVERNOR NIKKI HALEY COMPETING TO BE A STRONG ALTERNATIVE.

POLITICAL REPORTER JOINS HARI NOW TO SPEAK ABOUT WHAT'S AT STAKE.

>> CHRISTIANE, THANKS.

HOST OF THE RUN-UP AT THE "NEW YORK TIMES," THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US TODAY.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> SO, TONIGHT, FOLKS IN IOWA DO SOMETHING THAT THE REST OF THE COUNTRY REALLY DOESN'T DO.

THAT IS CAUCUS FOR OUR, LET'S SAY, OVERSEAS AUDIENCE OR EVEN THE AUDIENCE AT HOME, EXPLAIN JUST THE CAUCUS BEFORE WE HAVE THIS CHAT.

>> YEAH.

I MEAN, UNLIKE A KIND OF NORMAL PRIMARY, WHICH POLLS WOULD OPEN AT A TYPICAL TIME, AND PEOPLE WOULD VOTE THROUGHOUT THE DAY, A CAUCUS IS A KIND OF COMMUNITY EVENT.

IOWA REPUBLICANS WILL GO TO A LOCAL GYM, A POST OFFICE, SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

THEY'LL HEAR KIND OF PITCHES FROM CANDIDATES BROADLY, AND THEN KIND OF MAKE A MORE PUBLIC DECISION ABOUT WHO THEY VOTE FOR.

MOST IMPORTANTLY, IT MEANS THAT THERE WON'T BE A KIND OF ROLLING THROUGH THE DAY TYPE OF VOTES.

ALL GATHER AT 7:00 P.M., MOSTLY, AND THEN MAKE A DECISION IN THOSE GROUPS, AND THEN WE GET RESULTS REPORTED BACK.

IT COULD AFFECT US THIS EVENING IN TERMS OF TIMING, WHEN WE GET RESULTS AND HOW MUCH WE END UP KNOWING.

>> I UNDERSTAND THE STRUCTURAL ADVANTAGE OF BEING FIRST IN THE NATION FOR THE STATE, BUT I WONDER IS IT A GOOD PREDICTOR OF WHAT HAPPENS IN THAT ELECTION?

DOES THE PERSON WHO WINS IOWA BECOME PRESIDENT?

>> THE SHORT ANSWER IS, NO, PARTICULARLY ON THE REPUBLICAN SIDE.

IN 2016, TED CRUZ WON THE IOWA CAUCUSES.

IN 2012, RICK SANTORUM WON.

IN 2008, MIKE HUCKABEE WON THE CAUCUSES.

NONE OF THOSE PEOPLE ENDED UP BECOMING THE REPUBLICAN NOMINEE.

WHAT IOWA HAS TYPICALLY DONE AS THE FIRST STATE IS REALLY LIMIT THE CHOICES FOR PRESIDENT AND DELIVER KIND OF SMALLER MENU OF CANDIDATES TO THE REST OF THE STATE.

AND SO, YOU THINK BACK TO KIND OF 2016 AS THE LATE RECENT EXAMPLE, IT WASN'T PREDICTIVE IN TERMS OF TED CRUZ GOING ON TO WIN THE NOMINATION, BUT IT DID KIND OF SHOW THE DIFFERENT LANES THAT WERE EMERGING ON THE REPUBLICAN ELECTORATE, SO, YOU KNOW, EVANGELICALS RALLYING AROUND CRUZ, AND I THINK THEY HAVE BEEN THE PREDICTIVE GROUP IN IOWA, BUT YOU HAD DONALD TRUMP KIND OF ORIGINALLY SHOW THAT HE HAD MORE STRENGTH THAN MAYBE FOLKS EXPECTED.

THIS TIME, IT'S GOING TO BE A LITTLE DIFFERENT, BECAUSE THE FIELD IS ALREADY DOWN TO TWO OR THREE SERIOUS CANDIDATES.

I THINK THAT THAT -- THAT KIND OF ROLE OF IOWA WILL BE UP IN QUESTION HERE, BUT I THINK IT'S REALLY ABOUT WHETHER DONALD TRUMP'S DOMINANCE AND LEAD OVER THE OTHER TWO CANDIDATES FEELS MATCHED IN TODAY'S RESULTS AS WE'VE SEEN THROUGHOUT POLLING.

IN THE WAY THAT IOWA TYPICALLY WAS NOT PREDICTIVE AND EVEN MORE SO THAN THAT, WAS JUST ABOUT KIND OF SHOWING WHERE THE EVANGELICAL SLICE OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IS, THERE'S A CHANCE TODAY THAT WE SEE THAT THE REAL GRASSROOTS BASE OF IOWA REPUBLICANS ARE WITH DONALD TRUMP, AND IF THAT'S TRUE, THAT ALMOST CERTAINLY MAKES HIM EVEN CLEARLY MORE BETTER POSITIONED TO BE THE REPUBLICAN NOMINEE.

SO, IN SOME WAYS, BECAUSE THE FIELD HAS ALREADY SHRUNK, BECAUSE THIS HAS BEEN SUCH A WEIRD PRIMARY IN GENERAL, IOWA MIGHT END UP BECOMING MORE PREDICTIVE THAN IT'S TYPICALLY BEEN BECAUSE THIS RACE HAS BECOME SO NATIONALIZED.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, I THINK WE COULD BE IN A SITUATION WHERE, YOU KNOW, DeSANTIS, THE OTHERS HAVE GONE ALL IN ON KIND OF THE TYPICAL IOWA CAMPAIGNING, GOING TO ALL THE DIFFERENT COUNTIES, THINGS LIKE THAT, BUT IT HAS BECOME TO TIED TO DONALD TRUMP'S IDENTITY THAT IF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HERE BACKS HIM IN A BIG WAY TODAY, I THINK IT'S GOING TO FEEL A LOT LESS LIKE THAT SMALL MENU THEY TYPICALLY DO AND THE START OF THAT CORONATION OF TRUMP THAT MANY EXPECT.

>> ON YOUR PODCAST, THERE WAS AN INTERESTING PIECE OF SOUND, I REMEMBER, AND I WANT TO GET THIS RIGHT.

THIS WAS A VOTER IN IOWA TOLD ONE OF YOUR COLLEAGUES THAT GOVERNOR RON DeSANTIS IS THE COVER BAND TRYING TO REPLACE TRUMP.

WE DON'T NEED THE COVER BAND YET.

WE STILL HAVE TRUMP.

WHAT DOES THAT -- WHAT DOES THAT ILLUSTRATE ABOUT, MAYBE, WHY DeSANTIS DIDN'T CATCH ON?

>> I THOUGHT THAT WAS A GREAT QUOTE.

REALLY INSIGHTFUL ONE.

WE WERE AT THE LINCOLN DINNER, THIS IOWA DINNER THAT HAPPENS LAST YEAR, THAT WAS AROUND -- RIGHT AROUND THE TIME THAT RON DeSANTIS WAS TRYING HIS FIRST RESET.

HIS FIRST KIND OF ADMISSION THAT THINGS WEREN'T GOING WELL AND TRYING TO RESTRUCTURE HIS CAMPAIGN TO BOOST HIS NUMBERS IN IOWA, BUT THE PROBLEM WE WERE HEARING FROM VOTERS WAS WAY MORE FUNDAMENTAL.

IT WASN'T THAT, YOU KNOW -- WASN'T SOMETHING THAT COULD BE SOLVED OR STRATEGY OR MESSAGE.

IT WAS THAT THEY DIDN'T NECESSARILY THINK THIS PERSON WAS THE FIGHTER FOR THEIR VALUES WHEN THEY HAD THE KIND OF "REAL DEAL" IN DONALD TRUMP.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, DeSANTIS HAS TRIED TO PITCH HIMSELF AS TRUMP WITHOUT A BAGGAGE, TRUMP WITHOUT THE RHETORIC, TRUMP WITHOUT THE KIND OF GRUFF PARTS THAT I THINK SOMETIMES IN MEDIA WE SAY, HOW CAN THESE VOTERS LIKE SOMEONE LIKE THIS?

FOR A LOT OF REPUBLICANS, THAT'S THE EXACT REASON THEY LIKE HIM.

THEY LIKE THAT HE KIND OF INTIMIDATES THE SYSTEM, THAT HE AGITATES MEDIA, THREATENS POLITICAL OPPONENTS.

THOSE ARE NOT SIDE DISHES TO THE TRUMP APPEAL, BUT KIND OF THE MAIN COURSE, SO AS RON DeSANTIS WAS TRYING TO SMOOTH OUT SOME OF THOSE EDGES OR PITCH HIMSELF AS A MORE INTELLECTUALIZED VERSION OF THAT, A LOT OF VOTERS ARE SAYING, THAT'S NOT WHAT WE WANTED.

WHEN I HEAR THE COVER BAND QUOTE, THAT'S WHAT I THINK ABOUT.

THIS ASSUMPTION THAT DONALD TRUMP NEEDED TO MODERATE EITHER IN TONE OR MESSAGE, AND THAT THAT'S WHAT RON DeSANTIS SHOWED.

THAT WAS A BAD ONE, BECAUSE FOR A LOT OF THE REPUBLICAN BASE, THE AUTHENTIC VERSION OF DONALD TRUMP, NO MATTER HOW DISTASTEFUL, NO MATTER HOW CONTROVERSIAL, THAT'S THE ONE THEY WANT.

>> THE OTHER LEADING CANDIDATE IN THIS IS NIKKI HALEY.

SHE SERVED AS THE FORMER U.S.

AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N.

UNDER TRUMP.

GOVERNOR HALEY HAS BEEN GAINING SOME MOMENTUM AND TRACTION IN THE POLLING THAT WE SEE OUT THERE.

WHAT DO YOU HEAR FROM HER SUPPORTERS OF WHY THAT IS?

>> THE WHY OF WHY NIKKI HALEY HAS BEEN THE OTHER CANDIDATE TO REALLY MOVE UPWARD IN THE LAST SIX MONTHS REALLY COMES DOWN TO HER DOING THE TRADITIONAL CAMPAIGNING, FRANKLY, BETTER THAN RON DeSANTIS, KIND OF OUTDEBATING, PITCHES TO DONORS.

I THINK THIS IS A CANDIDATE THAT HAS A MORE CLEAR-EYED MESSAGE.

SHE MAKE THE ARGUMENT THAT YOU DON'T NEED AN ECHO TO DONALD TRUMP.

YOU NEED SOMEONE DIFFERENT.

I THINK THAT RESONATES FOR PEOPLE, THAT RON DeSANTIS IS KIND OF LOST HIMSELF IN THE SHADOW OF DONALD TRUMP, AND SHE'S REALLY EMEMBERS OF THE JURY -- EMERGED AS A REAL ALTERNATIVE KIND OF FIGURE.

THERE'S ONLY YEA AMOUNT OF VOTERS WHO ARE INTERESTED IN A LESS CONSERVATIVE NOMINEE.

HALEY IS TRYING TO PITCH HERSELF AS SOMEONE WHO HAS BOTH ESTABLISHMENT CREDENTIALS AND HAS ONE FOOT IN A GRASSROOTS MOVEMENT OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, BUT I REMEMBER WHEN I WAS AT CPAC LAST YEAR, AND WHEN NIKKI HALEY CAME ON THE STAGE, THEY BOOED HER, KIND OF RELENTLESSLY.

THE MAGA BASE OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY FINDS HER TO BE A FIGURE THAT IS WAY CUT OUT, THAT IS WAY DISTANT FROM WHERE THEY WANT THE PARTY TO BE.

DONALD TRUMP REALLY REMADE THE IMAGE OF REPUBLICANS IN 2016 AND REALLY PULLED THEM AWAY FROM THAT KIND OF BUSH-ERA, PRO-BUSINESS, PRO-BUSINESS RHETORIC, WHERE A LOT OF OTHERS WOULD SAY, TIED TO WARS AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

AND THEY ASSOCIATE NIKKI HALEY MORE WITH THAT PRE-2016 VERSION OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, RATHER THAN THE DONALD TRUMP KIND OF MAGA VERSION.

SO, IT'S GOING TO BE HARD FOR HER TO KIND OF COALESCE ENOUGH PEOPLE TO REALLY OVERTAKE DONALD TRUMP, BUT I DO THINK, PARTICULARLY IN STATES LIKE NEW HAMPSHIRE, PLACES THAT HAVE A LOT OF INDEPENDENTS, THAT HAVE A LOT MORE MODERATES AND PEOPLE OPPOSED TO DONALD TRUMP, SHE HAS SAW HERSELF EMERGE AS THEIR PREFERRED OPTION.

BUT REMEMBER, SOUTH CAROLINA IS COMING UP, THE STATE WHERE SHE USED TO BE THE GOVERNOR, AND EVERY PIECE OF POLLING OR EVERY PIECE OF ANECDOTAL DATA TELLS US THAT DONALD TRUMP'S LEAD OVER HER IN SOUTH CAROLINA IS BIGGER THAN IOWA OR NEW HAMPSHIRE.

SHE WOULD NOT ONLY NEED TO DO WELL IN NEW HAMPSHIRE, BUT REALLY MAKE SURE SHE CAN FIND A WAY TO GAIN TRACTION IN HER HOME STATE, BECAUSE I THINK IF DONALD TRUMP WERE TO WIN THERE, THAT WOULD BE THE CLEAR SIGNAL THAT THIS RACE WASN'T MUCH OF A RACE AT ALL.

>> I WANT TO TALK ABOUT SOME OF YOUR REPORTING BOTH ON THE PODCAST AS WELL AS IN PRINT ABOUT BLACK VOTERS AND THE SUPPORT IN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, AND WHAT I FOUND INTERESTING WAS HERE IS A POPULATION, A DEMOGRAPHIC THAT'S BEEN SO DEMOCRATIC IN THE PAST, AND -- OR I SHOULD SAY, SOMETIMES MAYBE THEY HAVE BEEN TAKEN FOR GRANTED, BUT WHAT IS THE ROLE OF BLACK SUPPORT IN AMERICA FOR PRESIDENT BIDEN AND HOW IN THIS LAST CYCLE DID THAT SUPPORT DECREASE?

>> YEAH.

I THINK THIS IS A STRUCTURAL PROBLEM THAT'S BEEN CHALLENGING DEMOCRATS FOR A WHILE.

AFTER 2012 WHEN YOU SAW THE PEAK, YOU'VE SEEN A TRAILOFF, AND THAT'S BEEN BECAUSE OF CANDIDATES AND INTEREST IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

IT'S MORE OF A COMBINATION OF SEVERAL THINGS.

IT'S A DIFFERENT RISING GENERATION OF BLACK VOTERS WHO FEEL A DIFFERENT RELATIONSHIP TO THE PARTY, WHO ARE FURTHER BACK FROM THAT CIVIL RIGHTS ERA, WHO ARE MORE KIND OF TIED TO -- WHO ARE MORE LIKELY TO CALL THE SYSTEM BROKEN OR BE DISAPPOINTED WITH HOW THE OBAMA ERA TURNED OUT, WHO 2016 WAS A MORE FORMATIVE EXPERIENCE FOR THEM, AND THEY DON'T SEE THE KIND OF SYSTEM OR THE PARTIES IN THE SAME WAY AS OTHER GENERATIONS DO.

SO, WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT BIDEN'S BLACK VOTER PROBLEM, YOU HAVE TO DO IT IN MULTIPLE WAYS.

IT'S ALSO A GENERATIONAL PROBLEM, ALSO A PROBLEM AMONG BLACK WORKING CLASS FOLKS THAN COLLEGE-EDUCATED PEOPLE, SO THERE'S DIFFERENT SLICES OF THAT ELECTORATE THAT ARE SPLINTERING OFF, BUT REMEMBER, IT WAS ALWAYS UNIQUE THAT SO MANY BLACK VOTERS HAD DEMOCRATS IN THOSE NUMBERS ORIGINALLY, SO WHAT YOU'RE SEEING IS A HISTORIC, UNIQUE KIND OF BACKING OF THE PARTY MAYBE START TO SPLINTER AS THE ELECTORATE CHANGES AND DIVERSIFIES IN DIFFERENT WAYS.

I ALSO THINK IMPORTANT DISTINCTION IS YOU'RE HAVING BLACK IMMIGRANT AMERICANS WHO ARE PART OF THAT POPULATION, WHO HAVE DIFFERENT VIEWS AND ARE LESS ROOTED IN THE KIND OF HISTORIC RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN AFRICAN AMERICANS AND THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

THAT'S BEEN WHAT OUR REPORTING HAS SHOWN.

THE NUANCE IN BLACK AMERICANS, THE FACT THAT IT'S NOT MONOLITHIC, IS POSING THE ISSUE.

OLDER BLACK VOTERS, PARTICULARLY FOLKS IN THE SOUTH, REALLY MADE HIM THE NOMINEE, AND HE KNEW THAT.

AND HE WENT TO THEM AND SAY CONSISTENTLY THAT HE WAS GOING TO BE A PRESIDENT THAT FOLLOWED THROUGH ON THOSE PROMISES.

I JUST THINK THAT THAT'S A REALLY HIGH BAR, AND FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE, THEY'RE SICK OF THAT SAME CYCLE, THE POLITICIANS COMING TO THE CHURCH BEFORE THE ELECTION TO TELL THEM THAT THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ELECTION AND THEY NEED BLACK VOTERS TO SEE AND SUPPORT THAT.

THERE IS A LITTLE BIT OF A TEACH HIM A LESSON ATTITUDE, PARTICULARLY AMONG YOUNGER BLACK VOTERS, AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT OUR POLLING SHOWS US, AND THAT'S WHAT OUR REPORTING SHOWS US.

>> YOU KNOW, YOU MENTIONED THAT TRUMP'S ABILITY TO APPEAL TO SOME BLACK MALE VOTERS ISN'T JUST ABOUT TRUMP BUT ALSO ABOUT MASCULINITY ITSELF AND THE WAY GENDER AND SEXUAL ASSAULT ARE CHANGING THE POLITICAL LANDSCAPE.

>> IT'S ONE OF THOSE NUANCES AND INTERSECTIONS THAT YOU HAVE TO PULL OUT IF YOU'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT THIS ISSUE.

PARTICULARLY WHEN WE TALK TO -- WHEN WE HEAR -- PARTICULARLY AS POLLING SHOWS THAT BLACK MEN ARE SHOWING MORE INTEREST IN REPUBLICANS AND SPECIFICALLY DONALD TRUMP, WHEN WE TALK TO THOSE PEOPLE, WE HEAR ABOUT HOW CHANGING GENDER ROLES, HOW CHANGING LANGUAGE AROUND SEXISM, CHANGING LANGUAGE AROUND GENERATE AND SEXUALITY THAT CAME IN THE LAST THREE TO FOUR YEARS, POST ME TOO MOVEMENT AND EMBRACE OF LGBTQ COMMUNITIES HAS, FOR SOME REASON, YOU KNOW, CAUSED A BACKLASH AMONG SOME POCKETS OF STRAIGHT BLACK MEN.

AND SO, I DON'T THINK THAT'S UNIQUE TO BLACK MEN, BUT I THINK YOU INCREASINGLY HAVE A POPULATION OF MORE TRADITIONALLY VALUES AND PARTICULARLY MASCULINITY PLAYING AN INTERESTING ROLE THAT'S CAUSING PEOPLE TO BE MORE INTERESTED MANY OTHER CANDIDATES, BECAUSE WE SHOULD REMIND OURSELVES, THESE AREN'T JUST ABOUT ONE IDENTITY.

DONALD TRUMP ISN'T MAKING APPEALS BASED OFF RACE.

IT'S ALSO APPEALS THAT ARE BASED IN GENDER AND IDENTITY POLITICS WORKS IN A LOT OF DIFFERENT WAYS.

AND SO THAT'S WHAT I AM GETTING AT IS THAT WHEN YOU -- WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THE ISSUE OF BLACK MEN, IT SHOULD NOT JUST COME AS A SURPRISE JUST BECAUSE THIS GROUP AND IN DEMOGRAPHIC HAS TRADITIONALLY BACKED DEMOCRATS AND WE SHOULD ONLY VIEW IT THROUGH THE LENS OF RACE.

THESE ARE ALSO PEOPLE WHO ARE SEEING THE SAME KIND OF CULTURAL SHIFTS IN OUR COUNTRY AND ARE REACTING TO THEM IN DIFFERENT WAYS.

>> YOU KNOW, BEFORE I LET YOU GO HERE, PRESIDENT BIDEN KICKED OFF HIS CAMPAIGN WITH THE MESSAGE THAT THIS ELECTION AFFECTS THE FUTURE OF DEMOCRACY.

AS YOU TALK TO PEOPLE, WHAT IS THE ISSUE THAT HITS HOME WITH THEM?

DOES SOMETHING AS, WELL, IN SOME WAYS ABSTRACT AS DEMOCRACY, DOES THAT URGENCY RING THROUGH TO VOTERS?

>> I WOULD SAY IT'S EXPRESSED IN DIFFERENT WAYS.

YOU DON'T REALLY HEAR TOO MANY VOTERS SAY I'M PRIORITIZING PROTECTING THE PROJECT OF AMERICAN DEMOCRACY, BUT YOU HAVE PEOPLE WHO ARE WORRIED ABOUT REPUBLICAN EXTREMISM AND ARE PRIORITIZING TRYING TO STOP WHAT THEY THINK IS A DIFFERENT VERSION OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

THAT LANGUAGE THAT YOU HEAR FROM PRESIDENT BIDEN IS OFTEN REFLECTED FROM VOTERS, AND I THINK THE MIDTERMS GIVE US A GOOD EXAMPLE THAT YOU CAN BUILD A COALITION OF PEOPLE WHO ARE MORE INDEPENDENT, MAYBE HAVE VOTED FOR REPUBLICANS IN THE PAST, AND MOTIVATES SOME DEMOCRATS ON THE IDEA OF STOPPING REPUBLICAN EXTREMISM, BECAUSE I THINK THAT INCLUDES A DEMOCRACY ARGUMENT, AND FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE, INCLUDES ABORTION RIGHTS ARGUMENT TOO.

WHAT I THINK IS DIFFERENT IN PRESIDENTIAL CYCLES AND PARTICULARLY IN THIS ONE IS YOU HAVE THE -- I MEAN, IN THIS ONE, YOU MAY VERY WELL HAVE TWO INCUMBENT CANDIDATES, WHICH MAKES IT MORE OF A CHOICE ELECTION THAN A REFERENDUM ON ANY ONE OR THE OTHER.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, BIDEN IS KIND OF TRYING TO MAKE THIS ABOUT REPUBLICANS AND SPECIFICALLY ABOUT TRUMP, AND SAYING, THIS IS A ELECTION TO REJECT THEM AND THE OTHER SIDE, WHERE I THINK WHAT I HEAR FROM A LOT OF PEOPLE IS THEY FEEL THE CHOICE ABOUT BIDEN AND PARTICULARLY AGE AND THE KIND OF SENSE OF DISAPPOINTMENT, THINGS LIKE THAT, AGAINST THAT CHOICE OF THE REPUBLICAN SIDE.

AND SO, I DON'T THINK THE DEMOCRATS CAN JUST SAY, THE OTHER SIDE IS BAD.

PARTICULARLY AFTER BEING IN OFFICE FOR FOUR YEARS.

I THINK THEY HAVE TO MAKE A SEPARATE TYPE OF CASE ABOUT WHAT THEY'RE GOING TO DO AND ACTUALLY RESPOND TO KIND OF VOTER CONCERNS ON THAT FRONT BECAUSE WHEN YOU SEE WHY BIDEN'S POLL NUMBERS ARE SO SHAKY AGAINST HYPOTHETICAL MATCHUP WITH TRUMP, IT'S NOT BECAUSE DONALD TRUMP HAS MASSIVELY INCREASED HIS VOTE SHARE.

IT IS BECAUSE OF A HUGE DROPOFF IN PEOPLE WHO ARE LIKING BIDEN.

THAT COULD BE GOOD NEWS IN TERMS OF PEOPLE THEY CAN -- ARE MOST LIKELY TO BE ABLE TO WIN BACK BETWEEN NOW AND NOVEMBER.

BUT IT ALSO MAKES REALLY CLEAR THAT THERE ARE FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEMS THAT A LOT OF DEMOCRATS HAVE WITH THIS PRESIDENT AS A CANDIDATE, EVEN IF THEY'RE FINE WITH HIM AS A PRESIDENT.

AND SO, THAT IS THE QUESTION I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO PUT TO THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY OVER THE LAST YEAR IS, YOU KNOW, WHAT IS THE ARGUMENT FOR THE NEXT FOUR YEARS, NOT JUST THE LAST FOUR YEARS WERE GOOD, BECAUSE FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE, THAT AGE CONCERN IS SUCH A DEEP ONE THAT IT MAKES IT HARDER TO LOOK MORE FORWARD WITH THIS CURRENT ADMINISTRATION.

I THINK, LIKE, THAT'S THE REAL QUESTION HERE IS, LIKE, WHAT IS BIDEN'S RELATIONSHIP WITH HIS OWN BASE AND OWN PARTY GOING TO LOOK LIKE, BECAUSE WE KNOW IN PRESIDENTIAL YEARS, IT'S NOT JUST ENOUGH TO PERSUADE PEOPLE, TO PERSUADE INDEPENDENTS OR SWING VOTERS.

YOU NEED TO MOTIVATE AND PERSUADE AT THE SAME TIME.

>> HOST OF THE RUN-UP AT THE "NEW YORK TIMES," ASTEAD HERNDON JOINING US FROM IOWA TONIGHT.

THANKS SO MUCH.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> WE'LL HAVE MORE ON THE RESULTS ON TOMORROW'S SHOW.

>>> FINALLY TONIGHT, THOUGH, GIVEN WHAT'S GOING ON IN HER COUNTRY, IT WAS AN ESPECIALLY SWEET VICTORY FOR THE UKRAINIAN TENNIS PLAYER WHO BEAT WIMBLEDON CHAMPION MARKETA IN THE FIRST ROUND OF THE AUSTRALIAN OPEN.

WE HEARD EARLIER IN THE SHOW ABOUT UKRAINE'S ELDERLY WHO HAVE STAYED BEHIND, AND DIANA SAYS HER OWN GRANDMOTHER'S HOUSE WAS HIT BY A ROCKET DURING THE ONGOING RUSSIA WAR, WHICH MADE IT DIFFICULT FOR HER TO PLAY.

>> WE JUST NEED TO REMEMBER ABOUT IT AND GIVE AS MUCH SUPPORT AS POSSIBLE TO UKRAINE.

BUT I'M PROUD TO BE UKRAINIAN, AND THANK YOU, EVERYBODY, FOR YOUR SUPPORT >> THAT'S IT FOR NOW.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING, AND GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.