>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO. "

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

WILL THEY OR WON'T THEY?

TRUMP STILL WEIGHING MILITARY ACTION AGAINST THE IRANIAN REGIME.

MEANWHILE, STILL CUT OFF FROM THE OUTSIDE WORLD.

BUT HARROWING REPORTS OF THE REGIME'S KILLING SPREE EMERGED.

MOHAMMAD MARANDI, PROFESSOR AT TEHRAN UNIVERSITY AND LONG-TIME DEFENDER OF THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC JOINS ME.

> >> AND WHAT OF THE OPPOSITION?

REZA PAHLAVI, SON OF THE FORMER SHAH URGES IRANIANS TO KEEP ON PROTESTING.

I SPEAK TO NAZENIN ANSARI.

> >> CAN THE VENEZUELAN OPPOSITION LEADER GET BACKING?

> >> PLUS, FED CHAIR JEROME POWELL STANDS FIRM AGAINST WHAT HE CALLS POLITICALLY MOTIVATED CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION.

WHAT THIS UNPRECEDENTED MOVE MEANS FOR AMERICA'S ECONOMY AND ITS DEMOCRACY.

?

?

> >> "AMANPOUR & CO. "

IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION.

THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN CHARLES ROSENBLUM KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

HE PROMISED HELP WAS ON THE WAY, AS IRANIAN PROTESTERS FACED THE BRUTAL PRICE OF THEIR DISSENT.

THE NUMBER OF THOSE KILLED BY THE REGIME IS DIFFICULT TO VERIFY, BUT IT'S BELIEVED TO BE IN THE THOUSANDS, AND YET DONALD TRUMP IS HOLDING HIS FIRE FOR NOW.

>> WE'VE BEEN TOLD THAT THE KILLING IN IRAN IS STOPPING.

IT'S STOPPED.

IT'S STOPPING.

AND THERE IS NO PLAN FOR EXECUTIONS OR AN EXECUTION OR EXECUTIONS.

SO I'VE BEEN TOLD ON GOOD AUTHORITY.

WE'LL FIND OUT ABOUT IT.

I'M SURE IF IT HAPPENS, WE'LL ALL BE VERY UPSET.

>> FOR THEIR PART, AMERICAN ALLIES IN THE REGION, TURKEY, QATAR, SAUDI ARABIA ARE ENCOURAGING PRESIDENT TRUMP NOT TO INTERVENE MILITARILY.

MEANWHILE, HERE'S WHAT THE IRANIAN FOREIGN MINISTER TOLD FOX NEWS YESTERDAY.

>> FOR TEN DAYS IT WAS PEACEFUL, LEGAL DEMONSTRATIONS AND PROTESTS FOR ECONOMY SHORTCOMINGS.

BUT AFTER THAT TEN DAYS, FOR THREE DAYS WE HAD COMPLETELY DIFFERENT STORY, A TERRORIST OPERATION.

WHEN TERRORIST ELEMENTS LED FROM OUTSIDE, YOU KNOW, ENTERED THIS PROTESTS, THEY WANTED TO INCREASE THE NUMBER OF DEATHS.

WHY?

BECAUSE PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS SAID THAT IF THERE ARE KILLINGS, HE WOULD INTERVENE.

AND THEY WANTED TO DRAG HIM INTO THIS CONFLICT.

AND THAT IS EXACTLY AN ISRAELI PLOT.

>> SO THAT'S THE POSITION OF THE REGIME.

SO HAS THIS UPRISING BEEN CRUSHED, AND WHAT COMES NEXT?

FIRST, WE GET THE PERSPECTIVE OF A FIERCE DEFENDER, MOHAMMAD MARANDI IS A PROFESSOR AT TEHRAN UNIVERSITY.

HE'S BEEN ON THIS PROGRAM REGULARLY.

HE WAS ONCE AN ADVISER TO IRAN'S NUCLEAR NEGOTIATING TEAM AND HE JOINS US BY SELECTIVE INTERNET ACCESS AT IRAN'S PRESS TV STATION IN TEHRAN.

MR.

MARANDI, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

SO LET ME ASK YOU SOMETHING.

YOU HEARD WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID THAT HE'S HEARD THERE ARE NO MORE KILLINGS, AND THAT THERE WILL BE NO EXECUTIONS.

SO THAT IS WHAT FOREIGN MINISTER TOLD FOX NEWS YESTERDAY.

DO YOU THINK THAT HE TOLD, YOU KNOW, TRUMP AND THE ADMINISTRATION VIA FOX OR OTHERWISE THAT IN ORDER TO HEAD OFF MILITARY INTERVENTION?

>> NO, HE WAS TELLING THE TRUTH.

AND I BELIEVE YOUR FRAMING IS COMPLETELY INACCURATE.

AND IRAN IS NOT A REGIME.

YOU DO NOT CALL SAUDI ARABIA OR THE EMIRATES, WHICH ARE FAMILY STATES -- >> YOU KNOW WHAT, MR.

MARANDI, MY SHOW I WILL USE THE TERMINOLOGY.

I'M JUST TRYING TO ASK YOU SOME QUESTIONS.

I UNDERSTAND YOUR POSITION.

HAS --HAVE THE PROTESTS BEEN CRUSHED?

>> NO.

THAT'S ANOTHER FRAMING THAT YOU'RE USING.

THERE WERE NO PROTESTS THAT WERE CRUSHED.

ON THE FIRST TWO DAYS AFTER THE CURRENCY DROPPED, AND IT WAS AMERICAN MANIPULATION IN NEIGHBORING COUNTRIES THAT BROUGHT DOWN THE CURRENCY 30 TO 40%.

AND WE HAD PROTESTS ON THE STREETS.

AND I KNOW YOU KNOW THIS.

AND THERE WERE NO ARRESTS, AND NO ONE WAS HARASSED.

NOT LIKE IN THE UK, WHERE PEOPLE WHO HOLD PLACARDS AGAINST GENOCIDE ARE ARRESTED OR IN GERMANY WHERE THEY CARE KAFFIYEHS IN SYMPATHY TO THE PALESTINIANS AND THEY'RE BATTERED ON THE STREETS.

THERE ARE NO ARRESTS.

THEN AFTERWARDS, TWO OR THREE DAYS LATER, THERE WAS INFILTRATION BY RIOTERS.

AND MANY OF THEM HAVE GUNS AND KNIVES, AND THERE IS FOOTAGE OF THIS.

IF ANYONE LOOKS AT MY TWITTER FEED, IT'S FULL.

THEY ATTACKED POLICE STATION.

THEY KILLED OFFICERS IN POLICE STATIONS.

THEY MURDERED 100 POLICE OFFICERS AND A BIT OVER 300 OFFICERS OF THE LAW, INCLUDING VOLUNTEERS.

YESTERDAY WE HAD A MASS FUNERAL IN TEHRAN FOR A HUNDRED OF THEM.

BUT THE NARRATIVE IN THE WEST IS THAT THESE ARE SOMEHOW PEACEFUL PROTESTS.

THE ISRAELI REGIME PUT OUT A PERSIAN TWEET, AND YOU KNOW PERSIAN.

PUT OUT A PERSIAN TWEET OR A STATEMENT SAYING THAT OUR PEOPLE ARE ON THE GROUND.

THE MOSSAD SAID THAT.

POMPEO WHO IS HEAD OF THE CIA SAID ON THE GROUND.

FOUR DAYS AGO, AND IT'S A TWEET, THEY SAID THAT WEAPONS WERE BROUGHT IN FROM A FOREIGN GOVERNMENT.

GUESS WHO IT IS.

AND THAT'S WHY HUNDREDS OF OFFICERS IN IRAN WERE MURDERED.

THE ISRAELIS ARE SAYING THIS, BUT SOMEHOW WESTERN MEDIA IS ALL IGNORING IT BECAUSE IT'S DISRUPTING THIS FAKE NARRATIVE THAT THESE WERE JUST PEACEFUL PROTESTERS.

>> OKAY, MR.

MARANDI, YOU HAVE SAID THERE WERE AND SO DID THE FOREIGN MINISTER, MANY DAYS, I THINK TEN DAYS OF PEACEFUL PROTEST.

WE HAVE REPORTED WHAT YOU SAID.

INDEED WE HAVE.

WE ALSO HAVE FOOTAGE, AS YOU HAVE SEEN, THAT'S COME IN WHEN THERE ARE CHINKS IN THE INTERNET BLACKOUT, FOOTAGE FROM ABUDAN WHICH SHOWS IRANIAN FORCES FIRING ON PROTESTERS.

I DO HAVE TO SAY THAT CNN COULDN'T VERIFY THE EXACT DATE, BUT THE VIDEO TOOK PLACE IN THE LAST FEW DAYS OR THE LAST WEEK.

AS YOU MENTIONED, THERE HAVE BEEN FUNERALS FOR HUNDRED SECURITY FORCES AT LEAST, BUT ALSO WE'VE SEEN ACTUAL BODY BAGS OF ACTUAL PROTESTERS BEING GATHERED IN VARIOUS MORGUES AND PEOPLE COMING TO PICK THEM UP, FAMILIES OF PROTESTERS.

SO ARE YOU DENYING THAT YOUR OWN FORCES IN THEIR CRACKDOWN HAVE KILLED ANY PROTESTERS?

.

>> MY FORCES.

>> THE REPUBLIC'S FORCES.

>> WHAT YOU DOING IS NEGATING THE TRUTH.

MANY OF THOSE CORPSES WERE POLICE OFFICERS.

MANY WERE PEOPLE MURDERED BY THESE PEOPLE.

A WOMAN IN A CLINIC.

THEY BURNED DOWN A CLINIC AND A YOUNG NURSE INSIDE BURNED TO DEATH BECAUSE OF THEM.

TWO YOUNG MEN IN A MOSQUE, THEY WERE SURROUNDED, AND THEY KEPT THROWING MOLOTOV COCKTAILS INSIDE UNTIL THEY DIED.

THEY SHOT A 3-YEAR-OLD GIRL.

THEY SHOT SO MANY PEOPLE.

AND THEY WERE SHOOTING THE POLICE FROM THE CROWDS THERE IS A LOT OF FOOTAGE OF THIS.

AND YOU CAN SEE IT, BECAUSE I POSTED SOME OF THEM ONLINE AND SO HAVE MANY OTHER PEOPLE.

>> WE'VE SEEN SOME OF THAT.

>> THIS DOESN'T FIT WITH THE NARRATIVE.

>> IT'S NOT ABOUT FITTING WITH THE NARRATIVE.

I NEED TO ASK YOU WHETHER YOU AT MITT AFTER ALL THE BLOODSHED, ALL THE TESTIMONY WE'VE HAD OF PEOPLE WHO LEFT TEHRAN, ALL THE DOCTORS' TESTIMONY WHICH I'LL PLAY IN A MINUTE, DO YOU AT MITT THAT MANY PROTESTERS WERE KILLED?

>> NO, DON'T SAY "ADMIT," CHRISTIANE.

I'M TRUTHFUL AND CNN IS NOT TRUTHFUL.

>> OH DON'T SAY THAT NOW.

>> SUPPORTED THE GENOCIDE IN GAZA.

>> DON'T SAY THAT NOW.

DON'T SAY THAT NOW.

I'M GOING ASK YOU -- >> IDENTIFIED -- >> PLEASE DO NOT SAY THAT.

>> DON'T QUESTION --DON'T FRAME THE QUESTION THAT WAY.

>> OKAY.

LET ME TELL YOU THEN.

>> NO, NO.

>> DO YOU AGREE --GO AHEAD.

>> THE RIOTERS AND THE POLICE WERE SHOOTING AT EACH OTHER.

AND PEOPLE, INNOCENT PEOPLE IN THE MIDDLE WERE ALSO HIT.

AND SOME OF THOSE PEOPLE WHO WERE HIT IN THE MIDDLE AND MURDERED AND KILLED, THEY WERE KILLED IN THE CROSSFIRE, AND SOME OF THEM WERE KILLED INTENTIONALLY BY THE RIOTERS.

I SPOKE TO A PHYSICIAN WHO I KNOW WHO OPERATED ON A FEW PEOPLE.

HE SAID MOST OF THE INJURIES THAT HE DEALT WITH WERE SHOT WITH PISTOLS FROM VERY CLOSE BY.

AND HE WAS SAYING THAT THEY WERE PROBABLY FROM WITHIN THE CROWD ITSELF.

AND WHY DID THEY WANT TO DO THIS?

IT'S EXACTLY AS THE IRANIAN FOREIGN MINISTER SAID.

WHO NEEDS THIS WAR?

THE ISRAELI REGIME.

THIS WHOLE PROCESS OF THE CURRENCY MANIPULATION, AND THEN THE RIOT, AND THEN SUDDENLY YOU HAVE THIS CONSENSUS IN THE UNITED STATES AND THE WEST TO HELP THE IRANIAN PEOPLE.

IF YOU WANT TO HELP THE IRANIAN PEOPLE, END THE SANCTIONS.

STOP STRANGLING PEOPLE IN IRAN AND CUBA AND VENEZUELA AND ELSEWHERE.

IF YOU WANT TO HELP THE IRANIAN PEOPLE, DON'T HELP THE ISRAELIS BOMB THE COUNTRY AND BOMB GAZA AND BOMB IRAN.

THAT'S HOW YOU HELP THE IRANIAN PEOPLE.

>> LET ME PLAY TO YOU A DOCTOR FROM AN EMERGENCY HOSPITAL ABOUT THAT NIGHT, JANUARY 8th.

AND AS YOU HAVE SAID AND YOUR FOREIGN MINISTER SAID, BETWEEN JANUARY 8th AND 11th, THERE WAS A LOT OF VIOLENCE ON THE STREETS.

THIS IS WHAT THE DOCTOR SAYS.

>> .

>> Translator: EVERYTHING FELL APART.

AT 8:00 P. M. THE INTERNET WAS CUT.

AT 8:20, I GOT A CALL FROM THE HOSPITAL.

"DOCTOR, COME, YOU MUST COME. "

WHEN I ARRIVED, I SAW WHAT WE CALL A MASS CASUALTY OPERATION.

EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THE FOUR OPERATING ROOMS WAS FULL.

I WAS THERE FROM 10:00 OR 11:00 P. M. UNTIL THE MORNING.

I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY SURGERIES I DID.

MAYBE TEN OR 11.

>> AND AS YOU KNOW, DOCTORS AND OTHER HEALTH OFFICIALS HAVE SAID THERE WAS, YOU KNOW, REAL STRESS ON THE HEALTH SERVICES, AND EVEN STATE TELEVISION REPORTED THAT -- THEY REPORTED THAT SEVERAL THOUSAND PEOPLE ARE BEING KILLED IN THIS ENTIRE AND INJURED IN THIS ENTIRE DEMONSTRATION.

>> NO, NO.

>> IT WAS SAID AND WE REPORTED IT.

>> NO.

IRANIANS HAVE NEVER SAID THAT SEVERAL THOUSAND PEOPLE WERE KILLED.

REUTERS, THEY JUST MAKE THINGS UP.

THEY HAVE NOT ANNOUNCED THE NUMBERS YET.

THEY PROBABLY WILL SOON.

BUT AS I SAID, MOST OF THE PEOPLE KILLED WERE EITHER FROM THE POLICE OR OFFICERS OF THE LAW, VOLUNTEERS OR PEOPLE WHO WERE KILLED IN THE CROSSFIRE.

BUT, CHRISTIANE, ONE FINAL POINT THAT I WANT TO MAKE TO YOU, AND THAT IS THAT THE UNITED STATES AND THOSE IN THE WEST, THEIR NARRATIVE ON IRAN AS CLEAR AS DAY.

IT IS ANTAGONIZE THE COUNTRY AND TO CARRY OUT A POLICY THAT THE ISRAELI REGIME WANTS.

AND IF THERE IS WAR, HAVE NO DOUBT, HAVE NO DOUBT THAT OIL AND GAS SUPPLIES IN WEST ASIA WILL COME TO AN END, AND THAT WILL CHANGE THE LIVES OF PEOPLE ACROSS THE WORLD.

AND THOSE PEOPLE WHO CARRIED OUT THE WAR, AND THOSE WHO SUPPORT IT, PEOPLE IN THEIR COUNTRIES WILL GO AND SEEK AFTER THEM.

>> LET ME DRILL BACK DOWN TOE WHAT STARTED THESE PROTESTS, WHICH WAS, IN THE WORDS OF ALL YOUR LEADERSHIP, LEGITIMATE PROTESTS AGAINST ECONOMIC SHORTCOMINGS AND THE COLLAPSING CURRENCY.

NOW, YOU'VE JUST BLAMED ISRAEL AND THE UNITED STATES FOR THAT.

BUT YOUR PRESIDENT, PRESIDENT PEZESHKIAN SAID WHEN THIS ALL HAPPENED, "DON'T GO AFTER THE USA OR BLAME ANYONE.

IT IS WE WHO MUST PROPERLY MANAGE OUR PROBLEMS.

IT IS WE WHO MUST FIND A WAY TO SOLVE PROBLEMS. "

THIS IS WHAT HE SAID AT THE BEGINNING OF THE PROTESTS AND HE FIRED THE HEAD OF THE CENTRAL BANK.

THE SUPREME LEADER ALSO SAID THAT HE UNDERSTOOD AND ACCEPTED THAT THERE WERE PROBLEMS WITH THE ECONOMY.

HE THREATENED RIOTERS, BUT HE SAID.

SO WHY DO YOU SAY THE OUTSIDE WORLD CONSPIRED TO COLLAPSE THE CURRENCY WHEN YOUR OWN LEADERS ARE SAYING THAT THEY HAVE TO DO A BETTER JOB TO REACH AND MEET PEOPLE'S NEEDS?

>> NO, CHRISTIANE.

>> ABOUT WHAT DO YOU MEAN, NO, CHRISTIANE?

I'M QUOTING YOU.

I'M QUOTING YOU.

>> WELL, LISTEN TO MY ANSWER.

YOU'RE NOT THE OUTSIDE WORLD.

THE WEST IS NOT THE OUTSIDE WORLD.

THE WEST IS A MINORITY, AND THE REST OF THE WORLD IS DISGUSTED WITH THE WISCONSIN HAS DONE IN GAZA.

IT'S NOT THE OUTSIDE WORLD.

BUT WHEN IT COMES TO IRAN AND IRANIAN LEADERS SAYING THAT WE HAVE TO FIX THINGS IN THE COUNTRY, OF COURSE THEY DO.

THEY HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY.

BUT THE PRESIDENT HAS REPEATEDLY SAID THAT THE UNITED STATES IS WAGING WAR ON US.

YOU'RE TAKING ONE PART OF WHAT HE SAYS AND ERASING ANOTHER PART, OR ONE PART OF WHAT THE LEADER SAYS AND ERASING ANOTHER PART TLMPLT IS NO DOUBT THAT THE UNITED STATES AND ITS ALLIES HAVE BEEN STRANGLING THE IRANIAN PEOPLE, ORDINARY PEOPLE FOR DECADES NOW.

THERE IS NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT.

AND THE IRANIAN GOVERNMENT IS STRUGGLING TO OVERCOME.

AND THAT IS WHY IRAN IS MOVING AND JOINING BRIX, THE SHANGHAI COOPERATION ORGANIZATION AND OTHER ORGANIZATIONS BECAUSE THE WEST IS WAGING ECONOMIC WARFARE, AND THE IRANIANS ARE LOOKING FOR SOLUTIONS.

THE COUNTRY HAS MANY PROBLEMS.

BUT THIS DID NOT BEGIN WITH THE PROTESTS.

>> OKAY, ALL RIGHT.

>> IT BEGAN WITH THE CURRENCY MANIPULATION.

>> OKAY.

YOU SAY THAT YOUR PRESIDENT SAYS SOMETHING ELSE.

I'M NOTE MISQUOTING HIM.

>> THAT'S NOT TRUE.

>> LET ME ASK YOU A QUESTION, BECAUSE THIS IS ONE OF THE BIG PROBLEMS, AND THAT IS THE INTERNET BLACKOUT.

CLEARLY PEOPLE LIKE YOURSELF, THE LEADERSHIP, THEY'RE BUSY POSTING.

THEY CAN TALK WHEN THEY WANT.

FOREIGN MINISTER ARAKI DID A 30 MINUTE INTERVIEW.

WE CANNOT SEE WHAT'S GOING ON, AND THE IRANIAN PEOPLE CANNOT GET THEIR INFORMATION OUT.

SO I WONDER WHY THAT IS, AND I ALSO WONDER WHY OR WHETHER YOU THINK, BECAUSE THERE HAVE BEEN SEVERAL UPRISINGS OVER THE LAST 20, 25 YEARS.

AND EACH ONE OF THEM HAS BEEN PUT DOWN.

AND I WONDER WHETHER YOU EVER WONDER WHETHER IRANIANS, WHETHER THE REPUBLIC CAN ACTUALLY KEEP EXISTING ON THE BACK OF THESE CRACKDOWNS.

HAS IT LOST ITS LEGITIMACY?

>> NO, CHRISTIANE.

THERE IS NO CRACKDOWN.

THE IRANIAN PEOPLE ARE ACTUALLY AMONG THE MOST POLITICALLY AWARE IN THE WORLD BECAUSE THERE IS AN PERSIAN MEDIA EMPIRE IN THE WEST THAT'S ANNING TO NICING IRAN DAY AND NIGHT, 24 HOURS A DAY.

WE SHOULD KNOW VERY WELL.

BILLIONS OF DOLLARS ARE SPENT ON IT EACH YEAR.

IN IRAN ON MONDAY, YOU FORGOT TO MENTION THAT MILLIONS OF PEOPLE CAME TO THE STREETS TEHRAN AND MILLIONS OF OTHERS IN PROTESTS AGAINST THE RIOTERS, AND AGAINST THE TERRORISTS, AND IN SUPPORT OF THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF IRAN.

WHY DID UP TO 3 MILLION PEOPLE COME TO STREETS IN TEHRAN?

WHY?

IT WAS LIVE COVERAGE.

IT WAS ROLLING COVERAGE ON MULTIPLE CHANNELS.

AL JAZEERA ENGLISH WAS THERE.

RT WAS THERE.

>> WE SHOWED IT.

WE SHOWED IT.

WE DIDN'T DO HOURS OF LIVE COVERAGE, BUT WE DEFINITELY SHOWED IT.

>> IS THAT OCEAN OF PEOPLE, ARE THEY IGNORANT ABOUT WHAT GOES ON IN IRAN OR THEY KNOW THE REALITY IS DIFFERENT FROM THE NARRATIVE PRODUCED IN THE WEST.

WHY, BY THE WAY, DID THEY SHUT DOWN THE MEDIA?

VERY OBVIOUS.

BECAUSE THESE WERE NOT SPONTANEOUS RIOTS.

AS SOON AS THEY SHUT DOWN THE MEDIA WHEN THE VIOLENCE WAS VERY HIGH, IT BEGAN TO SWIFTLY DIE DOWN BECAUSE THESE PEOPLE WERE COORDINATING WITH INTELLIGENT SERVICES ABROAD.

AND WHEN THEY LOST COMMUNICATION, THE WHOLE THING WENT OUT.

AND ON SATURDAY EVENING, THERE WAS ALMOST NOTHING.

AND SINCE THEN IT'S BEEN QUIET.

BUT THERE IS ALSO SECOND REASON.

>> ALL RIGHT, OKAY, I'VE GOT TO MOVE ON NOW.

>> IT'S BECAUSE OF THE THREAT OF U. S. STRIKE, THE IRANIANS WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT THE AMERICANS AT THIS MOMENT, THE U. S. TRUMP REGIME HAS AS LITTLE INFORMATION AS POSSIBLE ABOUT IRAN'S MILITARY.

>> OKAY.

>> THOUGH THE COUNTRY IS FOR THE MOST PART OFFLINE.

>> ALL RIGHT, ALL RIGHT, MR.

MARANDI, I GET IT.

I KNOW YOUR PRESS TV.

I KNOW, I KNOW.

BUT THERE IS INTERNET.

I KNOW.

BUT FOR THOSE WHO ARE ALLOWED TO SPEAK OUT, THERE IS INTERNET.

ANY WAY, YOU'VE MADE YOUR POINT.

I APPRECIATE IT.

I'M GOING TO MOVE ON.

NOW THANKS FOR JOINING US FROM THE HAN, PROFESSOR MARANDI.

NOW THIS IS A CRITICAL MOMENT FOR IRANIANS OPPOSED TO THE JEEJ.

REZA PAHLAVI, EXILED SON OF THE FORMER SHAH, HAS SOME LEVEL OF SUPPORT INSIDE TO WIN TRUMP'S BACKING HAVE NOT YET SUCCEEDED WITH THE PRESIDENT SAYING, QUOTE, HE SEEMS VERY NICE, BUT NAY NOT HAVE THE SUPPORT TO TAKE OVER THE COUNTRY.

SO FOR MORE ON ALL THIS, LET'S BRING IN NAZENIN ANSARI.

SHE IS A JOURNALIST AND MANAGING EDITOR OF THE ANTI- REGIME NEWS OUTLET IN LONDON.

HE MAKES ONE POINT THAT IS TRUE THAT THE ISRAELIS HAVE BEEN OPENLY POSTING THEIR INVOLVEMENT, POM OWE OPENLY POSTED ON PRESS, HERE IT IS, BY THE WAY, MOSSAD IS WALKING WITH YOU AS WELL.

THIS IS CATNIP FOR A GOVERNMENT WHO WANTS TO BLAME THE OUTSIDE WORLD.

WHY IS THAT ALLOWED TO HAPPEN?

>> IF I MAY JUST START, PROFESSOR MARANDI REMINDS ME OF BAGHDAD BOB.

IF YOU REMEMBER DURING THE IRAQ 2003 WAR, HE WAS SADDAM HUSSEIN'S INFORMATION MINISTER WHO WOULD JUST DENY REALITY WHEN THE TANKS WERE ROLLING BEHIND HIM.

SO MR.

MARANDI REMINDS ME OF BEING LIKE A BAGHDAD BOB WITH INTERNET.

AND HE HAS HIS PRESS CREDENTIAL, DENY, DEFLECT, DECEIVE.

AND INDEED, HE SEEMS TO ME TO BE LIKE PROFESSOR TEHRAN TELL.

NOW WHY DID ISRAELIS AND THE OTHERS DO THAT?

>> AND TRUMP HIMSELF, TELLING PEOPLE TO PROTEST.

I'LL COME TO YOUR HELP.

>> FROM ONE SIDE, IT IS A SYMBOLIC GESTURES TO THOSE DEFENSELESS, UNARMED PROTESTERS ON THE STREET THAT THE WORLD IS WITH YOU.

YOU ARE NOT ALONE.

BUT LET'S NOT FORGET THIS IS A REGIME THAT IS AT WAR WITH DEFENSELESS PROTESTERS.

AND THEY'RE USING MILITARY-GRADE AMMUNITION, AK-7s, TANKS, EVEN CERTAIN TECHNOLOGY TO DISRUPT INTERNET.

SO IF MR.

MARANDI IS SO TELLING THE TRUTH, WHY DOESN'T HE ALLOW, YOU KNOW, AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL, YOU KNOW, ALL THE HUMAN RIGHTS DEFENDERS TO GO IN, TO GO INTO THE PRISONS, TO GO AND COUNT THE DEAD.

>> TO BE FAIR, HE IS NOT A MEMBER OF THE GOVERNMENT.

BUT I UNDERSTAND WHERE YOU'RE COMING FROM.

BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY, ABOUT THE OPPOSITION, BECAUSE REZA PAHLAVI, THE SON OF THE DEPOSED AND LATE SHAH, CLAIMS A LEADERSHIP ROLE.

>> YEAH.

>> >> AND WANTS TO PLAY A TRANSITIONAL ROLE THERE HAVE BEEN PEOPLE WAVING THE MONARCH'S FLAG.

THERE HAVE BEEN PEOPLE SAYING HIS NAME.

HE RECENTLY CLAIMED 50,000 OFFICERS OF THE REVOLUTIONARY GUARD WERE PREPARING TO DESERT.

BUT HE HAS SINCE HAD TO BACK WAY FROM THAT AND REVISE IT.

THERE HASN'T BEEN ANY NOTABLE DISSENT IN THE TOP LEVEL OF THE MILITARY, WHICH MANY PEOPLE SAY WOULD BE THE BEGINNING OF A MOVE AWAY FROM THE CURRENT ISLAMIC REPUBLIC GOVERNMENT.

WHY NOT?

WHY HASN'T HE BEEN ABLE TO GET THAT?

>> WELL, THESE NUMBERS OF MILITARY PERSONNEL MR.

MARANDI CLAIMS HAVE BEEN SHOT AND KILLED, WHO WERE THEY?

WHO WERE THEY FIGHTING WITH?

YOU KNOW, WHO WERE THEY PROTECTING WHILE THEY WERE FIGHTING.

SO THAT'S ONE QUESTION TO ANSWER.

AND SECONDLY, WHAT WE NEED TO KNOW IS THAT THERE IS A LOT OF DEFECTIONS FROM WITHIN THE REGIME IN THE PAST FEW YEARS.

AND, YOU KNOW, NOT ONLY FROM IRGC, BUT ALSO FROM WITHIN THE BETA --THE SUPREME LEADER'S OFFICE.

THE OFFICE OF THE PRESIDENCY.

ALL THE INFORMATION THAT IS COMING OUT TO US AND TO OTHER OUTLETS, AND EVEN TO THE ISRAELIS HAVE BEEN GIVEN BY PEOPLE WITHIN THE REGIME.

THAT'S WHY THE ISRAELIS COULD EASILY, YOU KNOW, ELIMINATE 20 IRGC COMMANDERS.

>> BACK IN JUNE.

>> BACK IN JUNE.

AND SO THE THING IS, IT IS VERY IMPORTANT FOR THE WEST TO STOP GIVING SYMBOLIC, AND THAT'S WHAT I HEAR FROM ACTIVISTS INSIDE IRAN.

>> YEAH.

>> THAT THEY DO NOT WANT TO HEAR SYMBOLIC STATEMENTS ANYMORE.

THEY HEARD THAT DURING MR.

OBAMA, PRESIDENT OBAMA, DURING THE 2009 PROTESTS.

THEY HEARD THAT IN 2017, 2019, AFTERWARDS FROM PRESIDENT BIDEN.

THIS TIME THEY WANT MR.

TRUMP TO PROVE THAT HE IS A MAN OF HIS WORDS.

>> OKAY.

BUT I SAID IT TO MR.

MARANDI TOO, TRUMP HAS SAID ABOUT REZA PAHLAVI, "HE SEEMS VERY NICE, BUT I DON'T KNOW HOW HE'D PLAY WITHIN HIS OWN COUNTRY.

AND WE REALLY AREN'T UP TO THAT POINT YET.

I DON'T KNOW WHETHER OR NOT HIS COUNTRY WOULD ACCEPT HIS LEADERSHIP, AND CERTAINLY IF THEY WOULD, THAT WOULD BE FINE WITH ME. "

THAT'S NOT EXACTLY A RINGING ENDORSEMENT.

AND YET THE MONARCHISTS HAVE BEEN SUPPORTED BY ELEMENTS OF THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT, AND ALSO, AS YOU KNOW, THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT.

SO IS THAT A BLACK MARK, DO YOU THINK, OR SOMETHING THAT MIGHT MAKE THEM SUSPECT INSIDE IRAN?

>> NO.

LISTEN, I THINK OBVIOUSLY WE WILL NEVER KNOW WHO IS THE --WHO WILL BE THE NEXT LEADER OR LEGITIMATE PRESIDENT OR LEADER OR WHOEVER WE WANT TO SAY UNLESS THERE IS FREE, FAIR, AND OPEN ELECTIONS INSIDE IRAN UNDER INTERNATIONAL OBSERVERS.

BUT SECONDLY, REZA PAHLAVI, THE PRINCE, THE DEMONSTRATIONS STARTED END OF DECEMBER.

>> YEAH.

>> 29th OF DECEMBER.

PEOPLE WERE ON THE STREETS.

>> YES.

>> COME JANUARY 5th, HE MADE HIS FIRST CALL.

>> YEP.

>> FOR PEOPLE TO COME OUT AND PROTEST AND KEEP THE STREETS.

AND THEN WE SAW 9 th AND 10th.

SUDDENLY, ALL OVER IRAN, MILLIONS, AND SOME ESTIMATES OVER FOUR MILLION ACROSS THE COUNTRY, NOT IN ONE PLACE.

BUT THIS TIME IN TEHRAN, IN NORTH TEHRAN, IN SOUTH TEHRAN.

WE HAD NORTHWEST OF IN MASHHAD, PEOPLE WERE CALLING HIS NAMES.

BUT WHAT HE PROPOSES, AND WHICH IS I THINK IS VERY LOGICAL IS LET US --AND THESE WANTING AN END TO THE REGIME.

AFTER THE TRANSITION, LET THERE BE REFERENDUM.

LET ALL PARTIES GET TOGETHER.

AND THIS IS WHAT WE ARE SEEING, YOU KNOW, IN HIS SUPPORT.

THE KURDS, THE BELLUCCIS, SEVEN KURDISH GROUPS SUPPORTED HIM.

>> LET ME ASK.

THIS IS VERY, VERY IMPORTANT, VERY IMPORTANT.

>> YES.

>> I'VE READ QUITE A LOT OF ANALYSIS PREPARING FOR THIS INTERVIEW.

>> YES.

>> IN FACT, CERTAIN KURDISH GROUPS OTHER GROUPS THAT ARE DISPARATE GROUPS SAY THEY AREN'T ACTUALLY BEEN REACHED OUT TO BY THE MONARCHIST OPPOSITION.

AND ADDS YOU KNOW, I KNOW IN YOUR VIEW AND MOST PEOPLE'S VIEWS, THEY'RE NOT FAIR AND FREE ELECTIONS IN IRAN EVER.

BUT GIVEN WHO IS INVOLVED, THIS LAST TIME THE MORE CONSERVATIVE HARDLINE CANDIDATE GOT SOME 13 MILLION VOTES WHILE PEZESHKIAN, CLAIMING TO BE MORE OF A REFORMER, AND CERTAINLY SECULAR, GOT 16 MILLION.

THAT MEANS IT'S A DIVIDED COUNTRY.

DOES ANY OPPOSITION GET THAT?

DO THEY UNDERSTAND THAT IT'S NOT JUST A COUNTRY THAT IS JUST URGING AND WANTING SECULARISM AND PRO WESTERNISM.

THERE IS A REAL DIVISION THERE.

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, IN THE LAST ELECTION, LOOK AT THE NUMBER OF ABSTENTIONS, THE ONES WHO ACTUALLY DID NOT GO AND VOTE, WHICH WAS IN THE 10s.

NEARLY 50% DID NOT VOTE, MAYBE EVEN MORE.

THE TOP CANDIDATES IN PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS IN PARLIAMENT RIGHT NOW, THEY PROBABLY RECEIVED ONLY 10% OF THE VOTE.

SO THAT'S ONE THING ABOUT THE ELECTIONS.

SECONDLY, ABOUT THESE - - THE KURDISH GROUPS THAT I REFERRED TO, THEY WERE THE SEVEN MAJOR KURDISH GROUPS.

AND THE PERSON THAT HAS BEEN IN TOUCH WITH THEM IS BASICALLY ALSO, YOU KNOW, FROM --THEY ARE IN OPEN COMMUNICATION.

>> OKAY.

>> I SEND YOU THE NAMES.

>> OKAY.

LET ME JUST ASK YOU A QUESTION, BECAUSE THIS HAS BEEN ANOTHER COMPLAINT.

AND WE'VE SEEN IT AFTER MAHSA AMINI'S KILLING.

THEY WERE GOING TO PUT ASIDE DIFFERENCES AND TRY TO HAVE A UNITY OPPOSITION CAMPAIGN.

IT COLLAPSED AFTER TWO MONTHS.

THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF RIVALRY.

SO ARE YOU CONVINCED THAT AT THIS TIME, WHETHER OR NOT --AT THIS TIME, THERE IS A COHERENT OPPOSITION THAT CAN ACTUALLY DO POLITICS IN A WAY THAT HAS TO HAPPEN, AND JOINT QUESTION, ARE YOU CONCERNED THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP SEEMS TO BE MOVING AWAY FROM, QUOTE, UNQUOTE, COMING TO THE RESCUE OF THE PROTESTERS?

>> NUMBER ONE IS THAT WHAT'S DIFFERENT THIS TIME IS THAT THE PROTESTERS ON THE STREET ARE ASKING FOR THE END TO THE REGIME.

EARLY 2025, THERE WAS A POLL DONE BY IPSA, WHICH IS UNDER THE CONTROL OF THE SUPREME NATIONAL - - ONE OF THESE SUPREME OFFICES.

AND OVER 92%.

>> IN IRAN.

>> IN IRAN.

STREAM CULTURAL INSTITUTION.

SUPREME NATIONAL CULTURAL INSTITUTION.

OVER 92% SAID THEY ARE UNHAPPY WITH THE SITUATION.

THAT'S NUMBER ONE.

THE DEGREE OF RESENTMENT IS SUPER.

NUMBER TWO, MASSA, 2022 WAS A STEPPING STONE TO WHAT WE SEE TODAY.

THIS IS JUST ANOTHER FORM, AS YOU KNOW.

THIS TYPE OF PROTEST, ALTHOUGH WE HAD PROTESTS FROM 2009 ON WARDS, BUT THIS TYPE OF PROTEST WHICH IS VERY SECULAR STARTED IN 2017, 2019, 2022.

AND THIS TIME THE DIFFERENCE IS THAT THE OPPOSITION IS READY, WHEREAS WITH THOSE, IT WAS NOT READY.

>> AND VERY FINALLY, WE GOT 10 SECONDS.

THEY SAID THE STREETS ARE QUIET FOR THE LAST FOUR DAYS.

DO YOU THINK THIS PHASE IS OVER?

HAS IT BEEN CRUSHED?

>> WELL, THE IRANIAN AND THE DIASPORA ARE CONTINUING THERE DEMONSTRATIONS IN ALL CAPITAL CITIES AND VARIOUS CITIES AROUND THE WORLD, IN FRONT OF U. S. EMBASSIES IN ALSO IRANIAN EMBASSIES.

>> INSIDE IRAN FOR THE MOMENT.

>> INSIDE IRAN, WE DON'T GET PICTURES.

>> NAZENIN ANSARI, THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED.

>> THANK YOU.

> >> LIKE HIS VIEWS ON IRAN SELF- PROCLAIMED OPPOSITION REZA PAHLAVI, SO IS MARIA CORINA MACHADO.

HER PARTY AT LEAST WON AN ELECTION.

NOW TRUMP IS MEETING HER FOR THE FIRST TIME AT THE WHITE HOUSE, IN SPITE OF ENDORSING MADURO'S VICE PRESIDENT TO RUN THE COUNTRY AS LONG AS SHE DID THE U. S. BIDDING.

CAN MACHADO MAKE HER CASE TO THE U. S. NOW?

LET'S ASK PHIL GUNSON WHO WORKS IN VENEZUELA FOR THE CRISIS GROUP.

AND HE JOINS ME FROM CARACAS.

SO WELCOME.

TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK IS THE MAXIMUM MACHADO CAN GET FROM HER MEETING TODAY.

>> MY SENSE IS THAT SHE REALLY NEEDS TO PIVOT FROM A POSITION WHICH UP TO NOW HAS BEEN VERY ADULATORY TO TRUMP.

SHE HAS DEDICATED HER NOBEL PEACE PRIZE TO HIM.

SHE IS GOING TO HAND IT TO HIM.

SHE NEEDS TO HAVE SOME KIND OF DISTANCING FROM THE U. S. POSITION, OTHERWISE THE OPPOSITION DOESN'T HAVE ITS OWN IDENTITY, AND IT CERTAINLY DOESN'T HAVE A SEAT AT THE TABLE.

-- >> SUDDENLY BECOME AN INDEPENDENT ACTOR.

>> THAT'S INTERESTING.

DO YOU AGREE, THOUGH, WITH THE WHITE HOUSE'S APPARENT ASSESSMENT --MAYBE THE CIA HAS WEIGHED IN BECAUSE THEY ARE OBVIOUSLY ON THE GROUND -- THAT SHE ACTUALLY DID NOT HAVE THE ABILITY TO FLIP THE MILITARY AND GET THE INSTITUTIONS BEHIND HER, OR IS THAT JUST --WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> WELL, IN FACT, WE SAID VERY SIMILAR THINGS OURSELVES IN OUR REPORTS IN RECENT MONTHS FROM CRISIS GROUP.

IT'S NOT THAT MARIA DOESN'T HAVE THE SUPPORT OF THE PEOPLE.

SHE CLEARLY DOES.

IT'S CLEAR THAT YOU SAY THE OPPOSITION WON THE ELECTION IN 2024.

THE KEY ISSUE IS NOT THE SUPPORT OF THE PEOPLE IN THIS CASE.

IT'S THE SUPPORT OF THE MERGER.

AND DESPITE THE FACT THAT THEY ASSURED US, MARIA TO THE PEOPLE THEY WERE GOING TO HAVE THE SUPPORT, OBVIOUSLY THE CIA AND THE CIVILIZATION IN GENERAL DECIDED THAT IS NOT THE CASE THERE WAS A REAL DANGER OF VIOLENT CHAOS IF THEY WENT AHEAD.

>> YOU HAVE BEEN IN THE COUNTRY.

THERE HASN'T BEEN VIOLENT RELIGION JET STREAM CHANGE.

WHAT IS THE SENSE THERE?

IS THE DIAZ ADMINISTRATION REGIME STILL CRACKING DOWN, AS THEY DID AT THE VERY BEGINNING THAT THEY DID AT THE SIGN THAT MADURO HAD BEEN AIRLIFTED OUT?

>> I THINK IT'S ABSOLUTELY CLEAR THAT MOST VENEZUELANS ARE HAPPY TO SEE THE LAST OF MADURO.

BUT THERE IS A LOT OF APPREHENSION, UNCERTAINTY ABOUT WHAT COMES NEXT.

EVERYBODY IS MUCH AWARE THAT THE MILITARY, THE SECURITY FORCES IN GENERAL WHO HAVE BEEN GUILTY OF MASSIVE HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS, WHO CAN PICK YOU UP AT A MOMENT'S NOTICE BECAUSE YOU HAVE SOMETHING ALLEGEDLY SUBVERSIVE ON YOUR PHONE, THIS IS ALL STILL GOING ON.

SO PEOPLE ARE NOT TAKING TO THE STREETS.

AND THEY'RE CERTAINLY NOT EXPRESSING ANY SUPPORT FOR THE U. S. ACTION BECAUSE THAT CAN END YOU UP IN JAIL.

>> INTERESTING.

BECAUSE APPARENTLY THE ACTING PRESIDENT ALSO SUPPORTS THE U. S. ACTION.

AND SHE'S WORKING WITH THE UNITED STATES.

HOW IS THAT GOING TO GO?

LET ME PLAY YOU THIS SOUND BITE FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP AFTER HE SPOKE TO DELCY RODRIGUEZ, THE INTERIM PRESIDENT.

>> I KNOW THAT NUMBER ONE, WE JUST HAD A GREAT CONVERSATION TODAY.

AND SHE IS A TERRIFIC PERSON.

SHE'S SOMEBODY THAT WE'VE WORKED WITH VERY WELL.

MARCO RUBIO HAS DEALT WITH HER.

I DEALT WITH HER THIS MORNING.

WE HAD A CALL, A LONG CALL.

WE DISCUSSED A LOT OF THINGS.

AND I THINK WE'RE GET ALONG VERY WELL WITH VENEZUELA.

>> IS THERE ANY COGNITIVE DISSONANCE THERE?

ON THE ONE HAND, HE SAYS THAT.

ON THE OTHER HAND, HE SAYS HE'S IN CHARGE OF VENEZUELA.

WHAT IS THE REALITY ON THE GROUND?

>> WELL, IT DOES APPEAR THAT THE U. S. IS IN CHARGE IN THE SENSE THAT THE PEOPLE IN THE GOVERNMENT HERE DON'T APPEAR TO HAVE VERY MUCH OPTION BUT TO GO ALONG WITH TRUMP'S PLAN, AND THEY'RE PUTTING A BRAVE FACE ON IT.

TO THE EXTENT DELCY RODRIGUEZ AND HER BROTHER JORGE WHO RUNS THE PARLIAMENT HERE, THEY ARE TO SOME EXTENT ECONOMIC REFORMERS.

THERE MAY NOT BE TOO MUCH PROBLEM IN TERMS OF THAT ASPECT OF THE PLAN.

BUT WHEN IT COMES TO POLITICAL TRANSITION, THAT'S A WHOLE DIFFERENT MATTER.

AND IT'S PARTICULARLY SENSITIVE FOR THE PEOPLE WITH THE GUNS --THE MILITARY, THE POLICE, THE INTELLIGENCE SERVICE, SOME WHO MIGHT END UP IN JAIL IF INDEED THERE WERE A CHANGE OF GOVERNMENT.

>> AND ON THE OTHER HAND ALSO, AGAIN, WE'VE GOT TRUMP SAYING HE'S IN CHARGE, THAT DELCY RODRIGUEZ AND HER CREW ARE DOING HIS BIDDING.

BUT THE U. S. EMBASSY IN VENEZUELA HAS ISSUED A SECURITY ALERT WARNING, DO NOT TRAVEL TO VENEZUELA.

DEPART IMMEDIATELY, THEY TELL AMERICANS.

YOU ALSO HAVE THE ISSUE OF THE OIL WHEREBY OIL EXECUTIVES WERE SUMMONED OR CALLED TO THE WHITE HOUSE, AND SOME OF THEM, NOTABLY THE EXXON CEO TOLD TRUMP THAT VENEZUELA IS UNINVESTABLE.

WHERE DO YOU SEE ALL THIS HEADED?

DO YOU THINK TRUMP'S AIM WAS THE OIL?

AND IF SO, IS IT INVESTABLE?

>> I THINK THERE ARE A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT MOTIVATIONS BEHIND THIS OPERATION.

OIL CONTROL OF VENEZUELA, AFTER ALL, IT'S A COUNTRY WITH THE LARGEST OIL RESERVES IN THE WORLD.

THAT CERTAINLY HAS PLAYED A PART.

THE ISSUE OF DRUG TRAFFICKING, THE ISSUE OF MIGRATION, AND ALSO THE ISSUE OF THE CHINESE PRESENCE.

DON'T FORGET THAT PART OF THE REASON TO CONTROL THE OIL IS PRECISELY TO STOP IT GOING TO CHINA.

SO WE'VE GOT A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT THINGS INVOLVED HERE.

IT'S A COMPLICATED THING.

IT'S A COMPLICATED UNDERTAKING TO TRY TO MANIPULATE AND NEGOTIATE YOUR WAY TO SOME KIND OF A TRANSITION IN VENEZUELA.

>> IT IS REALLY INTERESTING, YOU KNOW, TO THE IDEA OF DEALING WITH THE CURRENT GOVERNMENT, AND THEN EXACTLY, I WAS GOING TO ASK YOU, YOU'VE LIVED THERE FOR DECADES.

CHAVEZ, MADURO, NOW RODRIGUEZ.

IN THE BIG PICTURE, DO YOU THINK BECAUSE RUBIO AND TRUMP HAVE ALLUDED TO THE FACT THAT AT SOME POINT DOWN THE LINE, THERE NEEDS TO BE A DEMOCRATIC TRANSITION?

CAN YOU SEE HOW THAT WOULD WORK?

>> I THINK IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO ENVISAGE UNDER TODAY'S CIRCUMSTANCES.

WE KNOW SECRETARY OF STATE RUBIO IS VERY MUCH COMMITTED TO REGIME CHANGE.

HE WANTS TO SEE THE OPPOSITION IN POWER.

HE WANTS TO SEE A DEMOCRATIC VENEZUELA.

WHEN TRUMP SPEAKS OF TRANSITION, HE IS MUCH MORE ECONOMIC TRANSITION, THAT LEAVES IN THE HANDS OF PEOPLE THAT IN HIS VIEW WILL MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN.

HE IS MUCH MORE FOCUSED ON WHAT HE IS GOING TO DO FOR THE AMERICAN PEOPLE THAN THE VENEZUELAN PEOPLE, I THINK.

>> AND FINALLY, DO YOU THINK MACHADO HAS HAD MISSTEPS, AS HAS BEEN WRITTEN ABOUT?

>> OH, ABSOLUTELY.

AND I THINK PUTTING ALL HER EGGS IN BASKETS OF A MILITARY INTERVENTION BY THE U. S. IS ONE OF THEM.

I THINK IT'S CLEAR THAT TRUMP HAS BEEN -- HE'S HAD HIS OWN AGENDA, WHICH IS NOT NECESSARILY THE AGENDA OF THE VENEZUELAN OPPOSITION.

AS I SAID BEFORE, I THINK THE WAY TO RECOVER FROM THIS IS FOR THE OPPOSITION COLLECTIVELY TO COME TOGETHER.

IT'S DIFFERENT FACTIONS, IF YOU LIKE.

AND TO MAKE DEMANDS OF THE U. S. AS WELL AS THE DELCY RODRIGUEZ GOVERNMENT.

THEY CAN'T BE SEEN IN -- POCKET.

>> JUST QUICK YES OR NO, I WAS TALKING WITH IRAN'S THING WITH RIVALRIES AND FACTION, DO YOU THINK THERE IS ANY CHANCE THE VENEZUELAN OPPOSITION, BECAUSE THERE IS ALREADY QUITE A LOT OF THEM TALKING PAST EACH OTHER?

>> THEY WILL COME TOGETHER IF THE CIRCUMSTANCES ARE RIGHT, BUT THEY'RE VERY WEAK, OBVIOUSLY, WITHIN THE COUNTRY RIGHT, TO A LARGE DEGREE BECAUSE OF THE OPPRESSION.

THERE IS NOT MUCH SPACE TO POLITICALLY ORGANIZE.

>> PHIL GUNSON, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING WAS THAT EXPLANATION.

> >> NOW PRESIDENT TRUMP SAYS HE HAS NO PLANS TO FIRE THE FEDERAL RESERVE CHAIR POWELL.

DESPITE THE INVESTIGATION AGAINST THE $2.

5 BILLION RENOVATION OF THE CENTRAL BANK.

POWELL HIT BACK SAYING THE MOVE IS POLITICAL RETRIBUTION FOR NOT FOLLOWING TRUMP'S ORDERS TO CUT INTEREST RATES.

TRUMP DENY NICE KNOWLEDGE OF THE INQUIRY AND POWELL HAS GATHERED SUPPORT FROM CENTRAL BANKERS TOO.

CO- ANCHOR OF CNBC SQUAWK BOX ANDREW ROSS SORKIN JOINS US TO TALK ABOUT THE BANK'S RESPONSE TO THIS UNPRECEDENTED INVESTIGATION.

>> THANKS FOR JOINING US.

THERE WAS A SET THAT JOLTED ME MORE THAN MY CHICORIED COFFEE WAS RIGHT AFTER FED CHAIR JAY POWELL RELEASED A VIDEO SAYING HE WAS UNDER CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION.

AND YOU WROTE "THERE ARE CERTAIN MOMENTS THAT DESERVE EXTRA REFLECTION.

TODAY IS ONE OF THEM. "

WHY IS THIS SUCH A BIG DEAL?

>> YOU KNOW, I THINK FOR THE LAST YEAR THAT WE'VE WATCHED THIS ADMINISTRATION, WE'VE SEEN ALL SORTS OF ELEMENTS OF WHAT MIGHT BE DESCRIBED AS LAW FAIR AND QUESTIONS ABOUT THAT.

THERE HAS ALSO BEEN QUESTIONS ABOUT THE INDEPENDENCE OF THE FEDERAL RESERVE FOR THE LAST YEAR AS THE PRESIDENT HAS MADE IT CLEAR THAT JAY POWELL IS HIS ENEMY, AND SOMEBODY HE WOULD LIKE TOE FIRE AND PUSH OUT.

AND I THINK THIS WAS ONE OF THOSE MOMENTS, ESPECIALLY WITHIN THE BUSINESS WORLD, THAT WAS DIFFERENT.

IT'S BEEN ONE THING IN THE PAST.

IN HISTORY, THERE HAVE BEEN MOMENTS WHEN PRESIDENTS HAVE BEEN QUITE CRITICAL, MORE THAN CRITICAL PUBLICLY ABOUT THE FEDERAL RESERVE AND THE ACTS OF THE FEDERAL RESERVE.

BUT THIS IS DIFFERENT.

THIS IS THE VERY IDEA OF POTENTIALLY PROSECUTING ON A CRIMINAL BASIS THE HEAD OF THE FEDERAL RESERVE.

AND IT COMES AT A MOMENT WHEN THE PUBLIC AND THE MARKETS LOOK AT THAT AND SAY THAT IT APPEARS TO BE A COERCIVE ACT, WHICH IS TO SAY TO FORCE JAY POWELL TO LOWER INTEREST RATES OR TO OTHERWISE LEAVE FROM HIS TERM BEFORE HIS TERM IS OVER.

AND I'VE LONG WAITED, THINKING IS THERE A MOMENT LIKE THIS EVEN GOING TO COME.

AND BY THE WAY, WHEN A MOMENT LIKE THIS COMES, WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN NEXT.

WILL POLITICAL LEADERS, WILL BUSINESS LEADERS STAND UP AND SAY SOMETHING?

>> AND HAVE THEY?

>> IT'S BEEN INTERESTING.

THERE HAVE BEEN A NUMBER OF FOLKS BOTH IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IN THE SENATE THAT HAVE BROKEN WITH THIS PRESIDENT OVER THIS ISSUE AND DONE SO PUBLICLY.

ALL OF THE LIVING FORMER FED CHAIRS THAT HAVE BEEN IN THIS ROLE CAME OUT AND CONDEMNED THIS ACTION AND THIS INVESTIGATION AND SUPPORTED JAY POWELL.

SIMILARLY, A NUMBER OF FORMER TREASURY SECRETARIES, INCLUDING HENRY PAULSON, A REPUBLICAN, SAID THE SAME THING.

AND THEN MOST RECENTLY, WE HEARD FROM JAMIE DIMON, ONE OF THE MOST INFLUENTIAL BANK CEOs IN AMERICA PUBLICLY SUPPORT JAY POWELL AND THE INDEPENDENCE OF THE FED AS WELL.

SO I THINK YOU ARE ACTUALLY SEEING SOME VOICE TO THIS.

AND NOT JUST SOME VOICE TO THIS FROM THE INDIVIDUALS THEMSELVES, BUT EVEN THE MARKET HAS HAD A VOICE OF A SORT IN SO FAR AS WHEN THIS BECAME PUBLIC ON SUNDAY EVENING, THE MARKETS MOVED AND DID SO NEGATIVELY IN REACTION TO IT.

>> WHEN THIS HAPPENED IN 2018, WHEN TRUMP WAS SAYING I'M GOING FIRE POWELL, THE MARKETS MOVED A WHOLE LOT.

TELL ME, THOUGH, WHAT'S REALLY HAPPENING NOW IN THE MARKETS.

IT HAS GONE DOWN A BIT, MAYBE BITCOIN OR GOLD IS DOING SOMETHING.

BUT ARE THEY REALLY REACTING?

>> THING IS A COMBINATION OF THINGS.

ONE, THERE HAS BEEN A NUMBING.

THERE HAS BEEN A NUMBING EFFECT IN TERMS OF SO MANY NORMS THAT HAVE BEEN SHATTERED.

TO SOME DEGREE, I THINK THAT PEOPLE IN THE MARKET DON'T FLINCH THE WAY THEY MIGHT HAVE IN THE PAST.

THE OTHER ELEMENT IS IN PART BECAUSE WE'VE SEEN SUCH A VOCAL REACTION, I THINK THE MARKETS HAVE SETTLED THEMSELVES AND SAID, WELL, MAYBE IN FACT THERE WON'T BE A QUOTE, UNQUOTE PROSECUTION OF JAY POWELL.

THERE HAS BEEN COMMENTARY FROM SOME SENATORS, REPUBLICAN SENATORS IN WASHINGTON.

THEY MAY EVEN HOLD UP THE NEXT NOMINEE FROM TRUMP TO BE THE HEAD OF THE FED UNLESS THIS INVESTIGATION ENDS IN SOME KIND OF VERY QUICK WAY.

I DO THINK THE MARKETS ARE TAKING SOME SOLACE FROM THAT IN THE CONTEXT OF WHAT DOES THE INDEPENDENCE OF THE FED LOOK LIKE.

>> WELL, YOU SAID THAT SOME REPUBLICANS ARE PUSHING BACK AND SAYING THEY MAY HOLD UP NOMINEES.

THE REALLY BIG ONE IS THOM TILLIS.

>> YES.

>> OF NORTH CAROLINA.

A FEW OTHERS, SENATOR KENNEDY FROM MY HOME STATE OF LOUISIANA, OTHERS.

BUT THOM TILLIS WAS VERY STRONG.

LET ME READ SOME OF IT, WHICH IS IF THERE WERE ANY REMAINING DOUBT WHETHER ADVISERS WITHIN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION ARE ACTIVELY PUSHING TO END THE INDEPENDENCE OF THE FEDERAL RESERVE, THERE SHOULD NOW BE NONE.

AND HE SAID THE CREDIBILITY OF THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT IS THE ONE THAT'S IN TROUBLE AND THAT HE IS GOING TO HOLD THINGS UP.

DO YOU THINK THIS MEANS THE DAM MAY BE BREAKING THAT THIS NOTION THAT REPUBLICAN SENATORS HAVEN'T STOOD UP TO TRUMP MIGHT BE ENDING?

>> I DON'T KNOW.

THIS COULD BE A VERY IDIOSYNCRATIC MOMENT.

TILLIS IS NOT RUNNING FOR REELECTION, IN PART BECAUSE HE IS FED UP WITH WHAT HAPPENED IN WASHINGTON.

HE HAS POTENTIALLY MORE LICENSE, IF YOU WILL, THAN OTHERS TO PERHAPS SPEAK HIS MIND.

YOU KNOW, THERE HAS ALSO BEEN SOME REPORTING JUST IN THE PAST 24 HOURS FROM "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL" AND ELSEWHERE THAT THE PRESIDENT WAS PUTTING PRESSURE ON PAM BONDI AND OTHER MEMBERS OF THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE TO TRY TO EXACT THE KIND OF CASES AND BRING THE KINDS OF CASES AND DO THE WORK THAT HE HAS BEEN PUSHING FOR AND DEMONSTRATING HIS FRUSTRATION ABOUT THAT.

AND SOME PEOPLE HAVE BEEN LED TO BELIEVE THAT PERHAPS SOME OF THOSE CONVERSATIONS IN FACT LED TO THE BEGINNING OF THIS INVESTIGATION IN TERMS OF SUBPOENAS BEING SENT AND THE LIKE.

>> LET'S ADD ALL OF THAT UP.

THE PRESSURE, IS THAT WHAT HAPPENED IN THIS INVESTIGATION WITH THE U. S. ATTORNEY WHO'S CLOSE TO TRUMP?

>> I THINK WE DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER YET.

THUS FAR, THE PRESIDENT, AND I SHOULD SAY THIS AS CLEARLY AS HE HAS SAID IT, HE SAYS THAT HE DID NOT KNOW ABOUT THIS INVESTIGATION, THAT HE HAD NOT SPOKEN WITH THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE ABOUT THIS INVESTIGATION AND LEARNED OF IT LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE.

I CANNOT VERIFY THAT.

I DO NOT KNOW IF THAT IS THE CASE.

BUT I THINK IT IS CLEAR THAT WE'VE HEARD HIS PUBLIC COMMENTARY ABOUT JAY POWELL OVER THESE PAST MONTHS, AND NOT JUST THAT, WE'VE ALSO SEEN AND HEARD THE KIND OF CLOSE RELATIONSHIP AND BACK AND FORTH HE HAS HAD WITH DIFFERENT PEOPLE WHO WORK WITHIN THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE.

SO I THINK THERE ARE STILL QUESTIONS ABOUT WHAT LED TO THIS IN TRUTH, AND WHETHER THE PRESIDENT SPECIFICALLY SAID TO HIS COLLEAGUES AT THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, PLEASE GO DO THIS, OR THEY FELT PRESSURE TO DO IT TO APPEASE HIM.

THEY MAY BE ONE AND THE SAME IN THE END.

>> LET'S BE CLEAR WHAT CHAIRMAN POWELL THINKS.

WHAT HE SAID "THE THREAT OF CRIMINAL CHARGES IS A CONSEQUENCE OF THE FEDERAL RESERVE SETTING INTEREST RATES BASED ON OUR BEST ASSESSMENT OF WHAT WILL SERVE THE PUBLIC RATHER THAN FOLLOWING THE PREFERENCES OF THE PRESIDENT. "

SO HE'S PRETTY CLEAR AND DOESN'T IT MAKE SENSE THAT HE KIND OF KNOWS WHY THIS IS HAPPENING?

>> WELL, LOOK, THERE'S TWO VIEWS OF HIS DECISION TO PUBLICLY RELEASE THAT VIDEO, WHICH IS REALLY UNPRECEDENTED FOR A FEDERAL RESERVE CHAIR.

ONE IS THAT INDEED, IN FACT HE VERY MUCH BELIEVES THAT THIS IS LAW FAIR AND THAT THIS IS BEING USED AS A COERCIVE EFFORT TO PUSH HIM OUT EARLY, OR TO INFLUENCE HOW HE REACTS.

AND THERE IS ANOTHER VIEW THAT HIS DECISION TO GO PUBLIC IN SUCH A WAY IS TO SHAPE PERHAPS THE NARRATIVE.

AND OBVIOUSLY THE PRESIDENT AND THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE HAVE SUGGESTED THAT THEY BELIEVE THAT THEY ARE BRINGING THIS CASE IN GOOD FAITH, OR THIS INVESTIGATION, I SHOULD SAY, IN GOOD FAITH.

THEY HAVE SAID THAT THEY SENT TWO LETTERS OR COMMUNICATIONS TO THE FEDERAL RESERVE.

I BELIEVE THOSE COMMUNICATIONS HAPPENED IN DECEMBER ASKING FOR MORE INFORMATION AND DID NOT RECEIVE ANYTHING.

>> THIS IS JUST SOMETHING ABOUT A CONSTRUCTION OF A BUILDING.

THIS IS NOT A CRIMINAL CASE THAT SEEMS TO MAKE SENSE.

>> WELL, THAT'S THE THING.

LOOK, THERE ARE LOTS OF DIFFERENT AVENUES FOR THE AMERICAN PUBLIC AND CONGRESS AND OTHERS TO HOLD THE FEDERAL RESERVE AND OTHER INSTITUTIONS IN THE UNITED STATES ACCOUNTABLE, IF YOU WILL, FOR SPENDING.

SO IF THE ISSUE IS HOW ARE THEY SPENDING THE MONEY?

CLEARLY, IN THIS CASE, THERE IS DEMONSTRABLE EVIDENCE THAT IT IS $700 MILLION OVER BUDGET.

IF THERE IS EVIDENCE THIS IS BEING MISUSED AND LIED ABOUT, YOU DON'T HAVE TO HAVE A CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION TO FIND OUT MORE.

YOU CAN HOLD HEARINGS.

YOU COULD HAVE AUDITORS GO IN.

THERE ARE OTHER THINGS YOU CAN DO.

A CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION IS A VERY SPECIFIC THING TO DO AND CARRIES ENORMOUS CONSEQUENCES.

>> HOW DO YOU THINK THIS MIGHT AFFECT INTEREST RATES AND THE FED, WHAT IT'S GOING TO DO LATER IN THE MONTH?

>> OH, GOODNESS.

IN TRUTH, I ACTUALLY THINK THIS IS CREATING POTENTIALLY MORE INDEPENDENCE FOR THE FED, AT LEAST TEMPORARILY IN SO FAR THAT THERE COULD BE A BACKLASH.

I THINK THERE ARE MEMBERS OF THE FED, AND ALSO, BY THE WAY, OTHER CENTRAL BANKERS FROM AROUND THE WORLD THAT HAVE NOW COME OUT IN SUPPORT OF JAY POWELL AND THIS FEDERAL RESERVE.

SO THE IDEA OF TRYING TO EITHER KICK HIM OUT OR CHANGE HIS VIEW I THINK IN FACT WILL BE STRENGTHENED TO SOME DEGREE.

AND NOT ONLY WAS THERE AN EX-COMMUNICATION THAT JAY POWELL WOULD LEAVE HIS SEAT IN MAY AS THE CHAIR, BUT THERE WAS ALSO THE POSSIBILITY THAT HE WOULD RETIRE FROM THE BOARD ENTIRELY.

HE COULD STAY ON AS A GOVERNOR.

IN FACT, PERHAPS BECAUSE OF WHAT'S JUST HAPPENED, IT MAY BE MORE LIKELY THAT HE DOES STAY ON FOR SOME PERIOD OF TIME.

>> LET ME ASK YOU THE MOST BASIC QUESTION.

WHY SHOULDN'T THE PRESIDENT BE ABLE TO HELP DECIDE WHAT INTEREST RATES ARE?

WHY SHOULD THE FED BE TOTALLY INDEPENDENT?

WHY SHOULDN'T WE HAVE SOME POLITICAL CONTROL WHERE WE DECIDE TO HOLD THE PRESIDENT ACCOUNTABLE IF THERE IS INFLATION?

>> I THINK IN THE END HISTORY HAS DEMONSTRATED THAT YOU NEED TO HAVE AN INDEPENDENT FEDERAL RESERVE, IN PART BECAUSE THEY ARE SETTING INTEREST RATES AND THEY NEED TO BE ABLE TO DO SO WITHOUT FEAR OF FAVOR, WITHOUT TRYING TO GET WHOEVER IS IN OFFICE ELECTED BY LOWERING INTEREST RATES TEMPORARILY, OR RAISING INTEREST RATES TEMPORARILY.

AND EVEN MORE IMPORTANTLY THAN THAT, I WOULD ACTUALLY ARGUE IN A CRISIS, IN A PANIC MOMENT, HAVING WRITTEN ABOUT 1929 AND WRITTEN ABOUT 2008, AND EVEN WHAT THE FEDERAL RESERVE ULTIMATELY DID DURING THE PANDEMIC, OFTENTIMES THE FEDERAL RESERVE HAS TO DO THINGS THAT ARE UNIQUELY POLITICALLY UNPOPULAR AND UNPALATABLE, THE BAILOUTS IN 2008.

I KNOW THERE IS LOTS OF DEBATE ABOUT THAT.

BUT ULTIMATELY, ARGUABLY, IT HELPED KEEP THE COUNTRY FROM REALLY GETTING INTO A LONG DEPRESSION.

SIMILARLY, DURING THE PEOPLE, THERE WAS AN EFFORT TO REALLY THROW MONEY AT THE PROBLEM, WHICH COULD HAVE BEEN PUBLICLY UNPALATABLE IN THAT MOMENT, AND YET YOU NEED A FEDERAL RESERVE THAT'S WILLING TO DO THINGS WITHOUT FEAR THAT THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OR ANY OTHER POLITICIAN IS GOING TO BE TRYING TO, YOU KNOW, MOVE THE DIALS.

>> IN YOUR BOOK, "1929," YOU HAVE A TRULY --YOU HAVE A LOT OF WONDERFUL CHARACTERS, BUT ONE OF THEM IS SENATOR CARTER GLASS OF VIRGINIA, WHO HELPS CREATE THE FED.

TELL ME ABOUT THE COMPROMISES DONE THAT CREATED THE FED AND WHY THAT EITHER MAKES IT STRONGER OR MORE VULNERABLE TODAY.

>> SO ONE OF THE KEYS TO THE FEDERAL RESERVE WAS TO HAVE AN IMPORTANT AND CENTRAL OFFICE IN WASHINGTON, BUT WAS ALSO TO HAVE REGIONAL OFFICES AROUND THE COUNTRY SO THAT WALL STREET DIDN'T TAKE OVER, DIDN'T HAVE MORE POWER.

THAT WAS CRITICAL.

AND THE INDEPENDENCE PIECE WAS ALSO CRITICAL.

AND THEY WERE AWARE OF THAT, BECAUSE THEY UNDERSTOOD THAT THERE WERE GOING TO BE DECISIONS THAT AT TIMES WERE GOING TO BE POLITICALLY UNPOPULAR.

AND WHEN YOU REALLY DIG IN AND EVEN THINK ABOUT THE CRASH OF 1929 AND LOOK AT THE FACT THAT FRANKLY, THE FED DID NOT ACT PERHAPS THE WAY THEY SHOULD HAVE, ONE OF THE REASONS FOR THAT ARGUABLY, IF YOU READ SOME OF THE DIARIES AND NOTES AND MEMOS OF THE MEMBERS OF THE BOARD DURING THAT PERIOD WAS BECAUSE OF POLITICAL PRESSURE.

BECAUSE THE FEDERAL RESERVE WAS SUCH A NEW ENTITY BORN IN 1913, STILL CONSIDERED AN EXPERIMENT OF SORTS, THERE WAS A WORRY THAT IF THEY ACTUALLY RAISED INTEREST RATES TO TRY TO TAMP DOWN SPECULATION, THAT THEY COULD TIP THE ECONOMY OVER, AND THEY WOULD GET BLAMED.

NOT JUST THAT THEY GET BLAMED, BUT THAT THE ENTIRE EXPERIMENT WOULD BE ELIMINATED.

>> TELL ME ABOUT WHAT WE CAN LEARN FROM OVERSEAS.

I KNOW THAT THE TURKISH PRESIDENT HAS INTERFERED WITH HIS CENTRAL BANK.

IS THAT A WARNING SIGN FOR US?

>> THERE'S NO QUESTION THAT THERE HAVE BEEN A WHOLE NUMBER OF INSTANCES WHERE YOU'VE SEEN CERTAIN COUNTRIES, SOME OF WHICH HAVE BEEN DESCRIBED AS BANANA REPUBLICS AND OTHERS, WHERE THE, YOU KNOW, THE HEAD OF STATE EFFECTIVELY HAS TRIED TO MANAGE THE ECONOMY AND MANAGE THEIR CENTRAL BANK.

AND IN SOME OF THOSE CASES, YOU HAVE SEEN MASSIVE INFLATION SPIKES, IN PART BECAUSE THE INVESTOR CLASS SAYS THIS IS NOT AS TRUSTWORTHY A BORROWER AS WE THOUGHT GIVEN THAT THE CONTROLS ARE NOW INDEPENDENT.

>> LET ME ASK YOU SOMETHING, A SEPARATE THING, WHICH IS THE CAP ON CREDIT CARD INTEREST RATES.

HOW DOES THAT PLAY INTO THIS?

AND IS THIS CAUSING WALL STREET TO HAVE MORE AGITA?

>> THIS IS A SEPARATE BUT VERY COMPLICATED ISSUE.

IT COMES AGAINST THE BACKDROP OF THE WATCH WORD OF THE DAY IN OUR ECONOMY, WHICH IS AFFORDABILITY.

AND THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES REALLY TAKING A PAGE, FRANKLY, FROM THE DEMOCRATS.

IN FACT, PRESIDENT TRUMP ALMOST TEAMING UP TO SOME DEGREE WITH ELIZABETH WARREN IN THIS CASE TO SUGGEST THAT BANKS SHOULD CAP THEIR CREDIT CARD RATES AT 10% AS A WAY TO TRY TO MAKE THINGS MORE AFFORDABLE FOR AMERICANS SO THAT THOSE THAT ARE NOT ABLE TO PAY OFF THEIR MONTHLY BILLS ARE NOT BEING CHARGED 15, 20, IN SOME CASES AS MUCH AS 30 OR MORE PERCENT EACH MONTH.

NOW, THERE IS A BATTLE GOING ON HERE.

BECAUSE WHILE IT SOUNDS ON THE HEADLINE, OH, IT'S GOING TO BE CAPPED AT 10%, THAT SOUNDS GOOD, THERE ARE REAL QUESTIONS IN THE MARKETPLACE RIGHT NOW, AND A LOT OF WHAT THE BANKS ARE SAYING IS IT COULD REALLY ELIMINATE OR REDUCE THE AMOUNT OF CREDIT THAT'S AVAILABLE TO BORROWERS, WHICH IS TO SAY THAT THE BANKS MAY CUT OFF CERTAIN CUSTOMERS BECAUSE THEY WOULD FIND THEM TO BE QUOTE, UNQUOTE UNPROFITABLE, AND COULDN'T MAKE THE ECONOMICS OF THOSE CREDIT CARDS WORK.

>> WELL, ALL OF THIS TIES IN, IT SEEMS TO ME, TO SORT OF A MORE POPULIST DONALD TRUMP TALKING ABOUT AFFORDABILITY LIKE DEMOCRATS HAVE BEEN DOING, AND THAT EVEN COMES TO THE QUESTION OF CORPORATE BUYING OF HOUSING.

IS THIS ALL OF A PIECE OF A NEW DONALD TRUMP?

>> OH, I THINK THAT THERE IS A LINE RUNNING THROUGH ALL OF THESE THINGS.

I THINK IT'S THE PIECE ON CREDIT CARDS.

IT'S TRYING TO ELIMINATE BIG PRIVATE EQUITY COMPANIES FROM BUYING --FROM BUYING HOMES AND THEN TURNING AROUND AND TRYING TO SELL OR RENT THEM TO INDIVIDUALS TO TRY TO KEEP PRICES LOWER THERE.

EVEN AN EFFORT TO ELIMINATE OR REDUCE THE NUMBER OF STOCK BUYBACKS THAT TAKE PLACE AND DIVIDENDS IN THE COUNTRY.

SO THERE IS A MOVE AFOOT THAT ACTUALLY LOOKS A LOT --LOOKS A LOT LIKE WHAT SOME DEMOCRATS HAVE SUPPORTED FOR A VERY, VERY LONG TIME, AND IS INTERESTING IN TERMS OF THE TIMING AHEAD OF THE MIDTERMS.

>> AND IT'S ALL PART OF A POPULIST PIECE.

AND DO YOU THINK THIS WILL FINALLY CHANGE PRESIDENT TRUMP'S RELATIONSHIP WITH THE PEOPLE YOU COVER, THE PEOPLE IN THE BACKDROP OF YOU RIGHT THERE, WHICH IS BASICALLY WALL STREET, THE MARKETS, BUSINESS, AND CORPORATE AMERICA?

>> SO THAT'S WHERE I'M LESS CLEAR.

I WILL SAY, YOU KNOW, IN THIS MOMENT WHERE THE REPUBLICANS CONTROL THE WHITE HOUSE, CONGRESS, AND THE SENATE, THERE IS ALWAYS A QUESTION OF WHO IS THE GOVERNOR, IF YOU WILL, OVER THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES?

AND FROM MY ADVANTAGE POINT, ACTUALLY, THE MARKET HAS BEEN PERHAPS ONE OF THE ONLY REAL GOVERNORS OVER THE PRESIDENT.

AND I SAY THAT BECAUSE IF YOU REMEMBER LAST APRIL, QUOTE, UNQUOTE LIBERATION DAY, THE DAY THAT THE PRESIDENT ANNOUNCED HIS TARIFF PLAN, THE BOND MARKET REALLY REACTED NEGATIVELY, AND THEN HE PULLED BACK.

AGAIN IN THE FALL, WE HAD A SIMILAR SITUATION.

HE TALKED ABOUT MUCH HIGHER TARIFFS FOR CHINA.

THE MARKET REACTED AND HE PULLED BACK.

THERE ARE VERY FEW TIMES AND VERY FEW PEOPLE ON AN INDIVIDUAL LEVEL IN WASHINGTON OR ELSEWHERE THAT HAVE SEEMED TO HAVE FORCED THE HAND OF THE PRESIDENT THE WAY THE MARKETS HAVE.

>> ANDREW ROSS SORKIN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

.

> >> AND FINALLY, REMEMBERING A CIVIL RIGHTS TRAILBLAZER.

WHILE EVERYONE KNOWS ABOUT ROSA PARKS AND HER 1955 ACT OF DEFIANCE ON A BUS IN ALABAMA, NINE MONTHS EARLIER, ANOTHER AFRICAN AMERICAN WOMAN HAD REFUSED TO MOVE FROM HER SEAT.

THAT PERSON WAS CLAUDETTE COLVIN, AND SHE WAS ONLY 15 YEARS OLD, SHOWING COURAGE BEYOND HER YEARS, REBELLING AGAINST MONTGOMERY'S RACIST JIM CROW LAWS BY REFUSING TO GIVE UP HER PLACE TO A WHITE WOMAN UNTIL SHE WAS DRAGGED OFF BY POLICE.

COLVIN DIED THIS WEEK AT THE AGE OF 86, LEAVING BEHIND A LEGACY OF DEFIANCE IN THE SEAT OF DEEP-ROOTED RACIAL SEGREGATION, AND IN HER WORDS, "HISTORY HAD ME GLUED TO THAT SEAT."

AND THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.

ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.

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