>> Haynes: I'M CRYSTAL HAYNES.

TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON," THE AWE, PRAISE, AND SOME CRITICISM THAT'S FOLLOWED THE UNVEILING OF "THE EMBRACE," A NEW STATUE IN BOSTON COMMON, HONORING MARTIN LUTHER KING, JUNIOR AND CORRETTA SCOTT KING.

THEN, GWEN STEFANI CLAIMING SHE'S JAPANESE, AND OTHER CELEBRITIES PROFITING OFF OF OTHER PEOPLES' CULTURES.

WHERE IS THE LINE BETWEEN APPRECIATION AND APPROPRIATION, AND WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THESE PUBLIC FIGURES KEEP CROSSING IT?

>> Haynes: IT WAS THE MOMENT MANY BOSTONIANS HAD LONG BEEN WAITING FOR-- THE UNVEILING OF A STATUE FIVE YEARS IN THE MAKING, TO HONOR MARTIN LUTHER KING, JUNIOR AND CORRETTA SCOTT KING, WHO MET AND FELL IN LOVE IN BOSTON.

LET'S ENJOY THIS HISTORIC MOMENT, LET'S CELEBRATE THIS BEAUTIFUL WORK OF ART, LET'S CELEBRATE THE ENDURING IMPACT OF THE KING LEGACY, LET'S CELEBRATE THE BOSTON WE ARE BECOMING TOGETHER.

FRIDAY AFTERNOON, CITY OFFICIALS, COMMUNITY LEADERS, AND PLENTY OF OTHERS GATHERED IN BOSTON COMMON TO BE AMONG THE FIRST TO SEE "THE EMBRACE," A 38,000 POUND BRONZE STATUE OF THE KING'S ARMS EMBRACING EACH OTHER IN A HUG, BASED ON THIS PHOTO OF THE COUPLE CELEBRATING DR. KING'S 1964 NOBEL PEACE PRIZE.

THE MORE THAN $10 MILLION WORK OF ART WAS MET WITH MIXED REACTIONS.

SOME QUESTIONED WHETHER THE MONEY COULD HAVE BEEN USED IN BETTER WAYS, WHILE OTHERS CELEBRATED THE STATUE AND WHAT IT REPRESENTS, INCLUDING "BOSTON GLOBE" COLUMNIST JENEEÉ OSTERHELDT, WHO CALLED THE EMBRACE "PERHAPS [BOSTON'S] MOST BEAUTIFUL AND RADICAL WORK OF PUBLIC ART."

JENEEÉ JOINS ME NOW, AS DOES REVEREND LIZ WALKER, CO-FOUNDER AND CO-CHAIR OF EMBRACE BOSTON, THE GROUP BEHIND THE MEMORIAL AND BROADER EQUITY EFFORTS IN THE CITY.

SHE'S ALSO AN AWARD-WINNING FORMER JOURNALIST, ACTIVIST AND THE PASTOR OF ROXBURY PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING ME.

>> DELIGHTED TO BE HERE.

>> I WANT TO START JENNEE WITH YOUR INCREDIBLE COLUME ABOUT THE EMBRACE.

TELL ME ABOUT WHAT YOU WANT FOLKS TO TAKE AWAY FROM THAT PIECE OF WRITING.

BECAUSE WE JUST PULLED A QUOTE, YOU CALLED IT A RADICAL WORK.

WHY IS IT RADICAL?

>> WE HAVE VERY FEW WORKS OF PUBLIC ART THAT CELEBRATE BLACK LEADERS.

AND EVEN FEWER WORKS OF PUBLIC ART THAT CELEBRATE LOVE.

MOST OF OUR MONUMENTS IN THIS NATION ARE TRIBUTES TO WAR AND THE VICTORS OF IT ORTHOS WHO SACRIFICED IN THE VIOLENCE OF WAR.

THE NATION WAS ROOTED, IT WAS BURST BY VIOLENCE SO IT IS NO WONDER THAT SOOFF ENTHE THINGS WE PUT MONEY BEHIND TO TELL A PUBLIC NARRATIVE ARE VIOLENCE.

SO FOR SOMETHING SO TENDER AND SOFT AS THE KINGS ARMS WRAPPED AROUND EACH OTHER, HOLDING EACH OTHER, LIFTING EACH OTHER UP, IT IS BEAUTIFUL.

IT'S RADICAL, IT'S A NARRATIVE THAT IS NOT JUST, IT'S VERY OFTEN DENIED FROM BLACK PEOPLE.

US BEING ABLE TO EXPRESS LOVE THAT WAY, SO TENDER AND BEAUTIFUL AND REVOLUTIONARY, WE DON'T GET TO HAVE THAT.

WE DON'T GET TO HAVE JOY.

SO ANY TIME WE TAKE IT, MAKE IT AND CULTIVATE IT IT IS A RADICAL ACT.

AND FOR THEM TO HAVE CHOSEN THAT FORM OF EXPRESSION, IT IS POWERFUL.

I KNOW PEOPLE ARE UPSET THAT THEIR FACES AREN'T THERE, BUT I THINK IT ALLOWS FOR ALL OF US TO SEE OURSELVE IN THE EMBRACE, FOR ALL OF US TO BE HELD.

FOR US TO ASK OURSELVES, WHO ARE YOU HOLDING LATELY AND WHO ARE YOU HOLDING SPACE FOR.

ARE YOU EMBRACING YOURSELF, DO YOU LOVE YOURSELF, YOU CAN LOVE OTHERS.

THAT IS THE BEAUTY OF ABSTRACT WORK.

>> Haynes: BUT I HAVE TO SAY, IT SEEMS LIKE ALL OF THE FOLKS WHO WERE PERHAPS CONFUSED BY WHAT IT LOOKED LIKE, DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THE INTENTION BEHIND THE ART, SAY THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND IT, IT FELT LIKE SOME OF THAT WAS DROWNING OUT THE PURPOSE AND THE MESSAGE-- MESSAGE THAT THE EMBRACE AND THE EMBRACE COMMITTEE WAS TRYING TO GET ACROSS.

LIZ, DO YOU THINK THAT SOME OF THE RHETORIC THAT FOLKS WHO ARE LIKE, WE DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE.

IT LOOKS LIKE SOME OTHER THING.

DO YOU THINK THAT THAT STARTED TO DROWN OUT THE MESSAGE?

>> YOU KNOW, WHAT WE FORGET HERE IS THAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT ETERNITY.

THIS STATUE, THIS MEMORIAL IS GOING TO BE THERE WHEN I'M GONE, BABY, IT'S GOING TO BE THERE WHEN YOU'RE GONE.

THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT OF IT.

SO IT WILL TAKE TIME TO HAVE DISCUSSIONS ABOUT IT.

I LOVE THE FACT THAT THEY'RE DISCUSSING IT.

I NEVER WOULD HAVE THOUGHT OF IT LIKE SOME PEOPLE THINK ABOUT IT BUT ART IS SUPPOSED TO ENGAGE US.

IT IS NEVER GOING TO SATISFY EVERYBODY.

IT IS NEVER GOING TO BE SOMETHING THAT WE ALL SEE IN THE SAME WAY.

JENNEE'S COLUME WAS FABULOUS BUT WHAT I WANT TO ADD ABOUT HER WRITING ABOUT THIS TENDER LOVE, IS WHAT THE KINGS EMBODIED, AND THEIR WORK IS ABOUT THE POWER OF LOVE.

BECAUSE THIS LOVE THAT STARTS IN A TENDER EMBRACE IS ALSO THE LOVE THAT TRANSFORMS HEARTS.

YOU SEE.

AND WE DON'T TALK, JUST LIKE SHE WROTE, WE DON'T TALK ABOUT LOVE IN THE PUBLIC SQUARE.

WELL, NOW WE HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO TALK ABOUT IT.

AND TO TALK ABOUT ALL OF ITS POWERS, TRANSFORMATIVE POWER BECAUSE THAT WAS WHAT CAT FULT-- CATAPULTED KING INTO THIS MOVEMENT.

AND FOR ONE SHINING MOMENT, IT WORKED.

SO YOU KNOW, CAN WE DO SOMETHING ABOUT THAT?

THE THE REST OF THE CONVERSATION IS IS EXPECTED.

I AM NOT SURPRISED BY IT I WAS SURPRISED BY SOME OF THE LOW-- OF IT, BUT YOU KNOW WHAT, I'M OLD, I'M OLD SCHOOL.

SO I GUESS THAT IS HOW WE TALK NOW.

BUT I WASN'T SURPRISED THERE WAS CONTROVERSY ABOUT IT.

>> >> Haynes: BUT DID IT HAVE TO BE RADICAL IS MY OTHER QUESTION.

BECAUSE I THINK ABOUT WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT, WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT OTHER SOCIAL MOVEMENTS, SOMETIMES YOU NEED A THING THAT MAY SHOCK SOME PEOPLE OR MAY BE A LITTLE BIT CONFUSING FOR SOME PEOPLE.

AND I WONDERED IF IT HAD TO BE RADICAL.

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> I THINK NO MATTER WHAT IT BOO HAVE BEEN MET WITH SOME BACKLASH.

I THINK EVEN IF WE DID A BEAUTIFUL STATUE LIKE THE MOST IMPORTANT, LIKE ONE OF OUR OTHER MOST IMPORTANT WORKS, LIKE WE DID SOMETHING LIKE OUR PHILIP WHEATLEY PIECE, I THINK THERE STILL WOULD HAVE BEEN SOME CONVERSATION ABOUT WAS THE NOSE RIGHT OR RASS-- THERE IS ALWAYS SOME BACKLASH, ESPECIALLY WHEN ARE YOU DEALING WITH PUBLIC ART.

DID IT NEED TO BE RADICAL?

LIBERATION TO ME IS OUR MOST IMPORTANT LOVE LANGUAGE.

SO IT IS ALWAYS GOING TO BE RADICAL.

ST ALWAYS GOING TO BE RADICAL.

IT IS ALWAYS GOING TO BE PUSHING AGAINST A CERTAIN NARRATIVE OR CERTAIN LIE WE BELIEVE ABOUT WHAT IT MEANS TO BE CELEBRATED AND WHAT FREEDOM SHOULD LOOK LIKE AND FEEL LIKE.

I DO FEEL LIKE, I DON'T FEEL LIKE IT DROWNED OUT THE CELEBRATION OF THE MOMENT.

I WAS THERE ON FRIDAY.

I WAS THERE ON SUNDAY, LIKE THE JOY IN THIS CITY WAS FELT.

SO I DON'T THINK THAT THAT DROWNED AWAY.

WHAT I DO, WHAT BOTHERED ME IS I DORCHT THINK THAT THIS MONUMENT IS ERASING BLACK AND BROWN PEOPLE IN BOSTON.

AND THAT KEEPS GETTING SAID.

I THINK THE RACE, THE BLACK AND BROWN PEOPLE SUCH AS THE ICONIC REVEREND ON THIS CALL WHO HAVE BEEN WORKING FOR DECADES TO GET WORK LIKE THIS MADE, WHEN YOU SAY THINGS LIKE OH, THE EMBRACE IS RACIST OR IT REPRESENTS HOW BOSTON TREATS ITS PEOPLE OF COLOR, YOU ARE TAKING AWAY FROM THE WORK THAT ALL OF THESE BLACK AND BROWN FOLKS HAVE BEEN DOING FOR GENERATIONS.

IT'S LIKE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO DON'T LIVE IN OUR STATE OR DON'T PAY ATTENTION, DON'T KNOW WHO IS BEHIND THIS WORK.

AND THE PEOPLE BEHIND THIS WORK ARE MOSTLY BLACK PEOPLE.

AND I'M GOING TO SHUSH UP HERE AND LET THE REVEREND TALK.

IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT TO ME THAT WE TALK ABOUT ALL THE HANDS AND ALL THE LABOR THAT WAS DONE TO GET THIS MONUMENT, AND NOT JUST THIS MONUMENT, BUT EMBRACE BOSTON WHICH IS DOING A TON OF WORK, EQUITY WORK AND THE CENTER IS COMING.

THIS IS YONLD, THIS PIECE IS THE BEGINNING.

>> WELL, AND FOR FOLKS WHO MAY NOT KNOW WHAT JENNEE IS SPEAKING OF, THERE HAS BEEN SOME CRITICISM THAT JUST BECAUSE ST ARMS AND SHOULDERS, THAT IT IS A A DI MEMBERRING OF BLACK BODIES AND THEREFORE ST RACIST, THAT IS ONE OF THE THINGS ON SOCIAL MEDIA RIGHT NOW.

BUT LIZ, I DO WANT YOU TO SPEAK TO THAT.

YOU KNOW, THIS CONCEPT THAT BECAUSE IT IS JUST ARMS AND SHOULDERS, THAT IT IS RACIST.

THAT WE COULD HAVE DONE A STATUE THAT WAS MORE RECOGNIZABLE, THAT HONORED KING AND CORETTA SCOTT KING IN A DIFFERENT WAY.

WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THESE FOLKS WHO SEEM LIKE THEY, LIKE AS WE TALKED AT THE TOP OF THE SHOW, MAY DRYING TO DROWN OUT THE WORK THAT EMBRACE BOSTON HAS DONE.

>> I WOULD JUST SPEAK TO THEM WITH LOVE.

I THINK THAT EVERYBODY HAS THE RIGHT TO FEEL HOW THEY FEEL.

I KNOW THAT THAT WAS NOT PUT INTO IT.

I THOUGHT JENNEE POINTS WERE WELL MADE.

I TALKED TO HANK AND I THINK HANK HAS SAID THIS PUBLICLY.

YOU REALLY HAVE TO SEE IT, YOU HAVE TO STEP INTO IT AND I KNOW EVERYBODY IS NOT GOING TO GET THAT OPPORTUNITY.

BUT LET ME JUST TELL YOU, TO STEP INTO IT AND FEEL THE WARMTH AND FEEL THE LOVE, THE W-O-M-B LIKE LOVE STANDING UNDER THE STATUE.

AND ALSO THE THING IS, AS I SAID, THE POWER TO CHANGE THINGS.

BUT I, I THINK WE JUST HAVE TO GIVE IT TIME.

I THINK WE HAVE TO LISTEN TO PEOPLE.

BUT I THINK SOMETIMES THAT WE SPEAK OUT OF OUR W-O-M-B.

AND WE ARE D-- OUT OF OUR WOUNDS, SO WE ARE WOUNDED PEOPLE.

AND OF COURSE WE ARE GOING TO SEE WHAT OUR WOUNDS TELL US TO SEE.

AND THAT IS WHAT WE HAVE TO FEEL.

SO THE WALK AHEAD, THE STATUE IS ONLY ONE THING, AS YOU SAID.

THE WORK AHEAD IS ON ECONOMIC JUSTICE AND CULTURAL, YOU KNOW, UPLIFT.

AND THERE HAS BEEN SO MUCH THAT WE ARE GOING TO DO WITH THIS.

BUT THE FACT THAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT IT, I THINK IT'S POWERFUL.

WE WENT TO AS MANY COMMUNITIES AS WE COULD IN TALKING ABOUT THIS IN THE BEGINNING.

WE DID COMMUNITY MEETINGS.

NOW WE WENT TO 12 BAPTIST CHURCH BECAUSE THE KINGS WORK AT 12 BAPTIST CHURCH IN BOSTON.

SO THAT WAS KIND OF ONE OF THE CRITICAL POINTS WHERE WE MET AND DISCUSSED THIS.

WE OPENED IT UP TO AS MANY NEIGHBORHOODS AS WE COULD.

AND I THINK SOMETIMES PEOPLE FEEL THAT THEY WANT A PART OF THAT PROCESS OR PEOPLE FEEL THAT THE PROCESS SHOULD HAVE BP WIDER.

BUT IT WAS ALL BLACK AND BROWN PEOPLE.

PAUL ENGLISH, THE YOUNG MAN WHO KIND OF HAD THIS VISION AT THE BEGINNING IS A YOUNG WHITE MAN.

AND HIS POWER, YOU CAN'T TAKE THAT AWAY FROM HIM.

I DON'T CARE WHAT WHAT COLOR HE.

IS AND HE PUT SOME MONEY UP TO START THIS.

SO YOU HAVE GOT TO INCLUDE HIM.

AND THAT IS PART OF THE BELOVED COMMUNITY.

BUT IT'S ALL OF US WHO HAVE WORKED FOR THIS.

AND AGAIN, THESE KIND OF MEMORIALS ON THIS PARK, THE OLDEST PARK IN THE COUNTRY, THIS WILL BE THERE FOR A LONG TIME.

SO I AM LOOKING AT THE BIG PICTURE.

AND I THINK THAT THAT IS A VERY HOPEFUL PICTURE.

>> WELL, I WANT TO SPEAK ABOUT THAT.

BECAUSE A LOT OF PEOPLE THINK THAT THESE TYPES OF THINGS HAPPEN OVERNIGHT.

AND WHAT I MEAN BY THE GENERAL PUBLIC AND MAYBE FOLKS WHO AREN'T DOING THIS WORK EVERY SINGLE DAY, IN 2017, THERE WAS AN IDEA THAT WAS A CONCEPT.

AND THEN FROM THAT POINT ON, THERE WAS FUNDRAISING.

THERE WAS GETTING BUY-IN FOR THIS.

AND I THINK THE STORY THAT DOESN'T ALWAYS GET TOLD IS THAT WORK.

THE GROUND WORK OF BLACK BOSTONIANS COMING TOGETHER TO CREATE THE EMBRACE BOSTON COMMITTEE AND ALL OF THE WORK THAT GOES FORWARD WITH THIS.

SO TALK TO ME ABOUT WHAT PEOPLE NEED TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT THIS COALITION BUILDING THAT HAPPENED BEHIND THE CREATION OF THE STATUE.

>> THIS WAS ALL RELATIONAL.

AND I JUST WANT TO SAY FOR THE RECORD, THAT EFFORTS HAVE BEEN MADE OVER THE YEARS TO HAVE A MEMORIAL FOR THE KINGS, SO WE WERE NOT THE FIRST.

WE KIND OF STAND ON THE SHOULDERS OF OTHER PEOPLE, CITY COUNCILLOR CHARLES-- STARTED THIS IN 1996, I BELIEVE.

BUT A LONG TIME AGO.

SO THIS HAS BEEN AN ONGOING PROCESS.

WE WENT INTO 14 COMMUNITIES WHEN I BEGAN TO WORK ON THIS WITH PAUL ENGLISH.

WE WENT INTO DORCHESTER AND ROXBURY, SEVERAL CHURCHES.

NOW AGAIN CHURCHES.

SO YOU KNOW, I'M A PREPARER SO Y'ALL NEED TO COME TO CHURCH, OKAY.

THAT IS ALL I HAVE TO SAY.

BUT ANYWAY, I WILL GO ON FROM THERE.

WE REACHED OUT TO COMMUNITY GROUPS.

DID WE MISS SOME, I THINK WE PROBABLY DID.

BUT WE MADE, I MAID EVERY EFFORT, BECAUSE I LOVE THIS CITY.

I LOVE ROXBURY, I LOVE DORCHESTER, LOWER, UP.ER, ALL OF IT I LOVE MATTAPAN.

I HAD A CHURCH THERE IN THOSE COMMUNITIES.

SO WE REACHED OUT TO ALL THE PEOPLE, EAST BOSTON, SOUTH BOSTON, SOUTH END, THOSE WERE MEETINGS THAT I MAID.

I DID NOT MAKE THEM ALL BUT PAUL TRIED TO.

AND WE HAD, WE POSTED IN THE LINE RARE.

I MEAN IT WAS KIND OF A PUBLIC THING BECAUSE WE WANTED AS MUCH INPUT AS WE COULD GET.

AND I THINK WE DID A GOOD JOB.

I THINK WE DID A GREAT JOB AS A MATTER OF FACT.

AND SO IT HAS BEEN AN EFFORT OF LOTS AND LOTS OF PEOPLE.

THEN PARISH JEFFREYS WHO IS JUST THIS AMAZING YOUNG MAN WHO TOOK OVER JUST RECENTLY BUT MARIE ST. FLEUR WAS A PART OF THIS.

SO WE HAD A LOT OF INPUT FROM PEOPLE WHO WERE THE QUIET HEROES, YOU KNOW, BARRY GAITHER WHO HAS THE MUSEUM IN ROXBURY.

I MEAN PEOPLE WHO ARE INSTITUTIONS IN THEIR OWN RIGHT WERE A PART OF THIS AS WELL.

AND ALL, YOU KNOW, GAVE THEIR, ALL COMMITTED TO BEING, TO HAVING VOICE IN THIS, AND REPRESENTED VERY WELL.

>> Haynes: WELL, UNFORTUNATELY WE HAVE TO LEAVE THE CONVERSATION THERE, BUT CERTAINLY MORE TO TALK ABOUT AS WE MOVE FORWARD, BECAUSE AS YOU MENTIONED, REVEREND WALKER, YOU KNOW, ONCE YOU GO TO THE STATUE IT WILL BE THERE FOR A VERY LONG TIME, FOR FOLKS TO GO TO AND EXPERIENCE.

>> Haynes: JENEEÉ OSTERHELDT, REVEREND LIZ WALKER, THANKS.

SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

NEXT UP, GWEN STEFANI IS A LOT OF THINGS: POP STAR, FASHION DESIGNER, AND COACH ON N-B-C'S "THE VOICE."

ONE THING SHE ISN'T?

JAPENESE, THOUGH THAT HASN'T STOPPED THE SINGER FROM CLAIMING SHE IS, AND PROFITING FROM ITS CULTURE REPEATEDLY THROUGHOUT HER CAREER.

THERE WAS HER 2004 ALBUM "LOVE- ANGEL-MUSIC-BABY," WHICH WAS HEAVILY INSPIRED BY JAPAN'S HARAJUKU SUBCULTURE, AND THE FOUR JAPANESE AND JAPANESE-AMERICAN BACKUP DANCERS SHE HIRED TO HELP PROMOTE THE ALBUM.

THEN IN 2008, SHE LAUNCHED A FRAGRENCE LINE CALLED HARAJUKU LOVERS, SOLD IN BOTTLES MADE TO LOOK LIKE STEFANI AND HER BACKUP DANCERS.

AND JUST LAST WEEK, WHEN GIVEN A CHANCE TO REFLECT ON THOSE PROJECTS, STEFANI DOUBLED DOWN, TELLING "ALLURE" MAGAZINE THAT AFTER A TRIP SHE TOOK TO JAPAN SEVERAL YEARS BACK, SHE TOLD HERSELF: "MY GOD, I'M JAPANESE AND I DIDN'T KNOW IT."

NEITHER DID THE REST OF US, PERHAPS BECAUSE STEFANI IS REALLY OF IRISH AND ITALIAN-AMERICAN DESCENT.

IN THE WEEK SINCE, STEFANI'S CLAIMS HAVE FED INTO THE AGE-OLD CONVERSATION OF CULTURAL APPROPRIATION, SEEN ACROSS THE MUSIC AND ENTERTAINMENT INDUSTRIES.

JOINING ME NOW TO DISCUSS ARE SAM HYUN, FORMER CHAIRPERSON OF THE MASSACHUSETTS ASIAN AMERICAN COMMISSION; HE ALSO SERVED ON THE LEADERSHIP TEAM FOR HATE-IS-A-VIRUS, A NATIONAL ORGANIZATION COMBATING ANTI-ASIAN HATE; AND CANDACE McDUFFIE, SENIOR WRITER AT "THE ROOT."

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME, CRYSTAL.

>> Haynes: ALL RIGHT, SO LET'S GET INTO IT.

BECAUSE WE JUST SNAIMED SOME WHAT I WOULD CALL ALARMING EXAMPLES OF CULTURAL APPROPRIATION.

SO SAM, IT APPEARS THAT SHE'S DOUBLING DOWN ON THIS CLAIM.

AND HAS NO REGARD FOR THE HARM THAT IT IS CAUSING ASIAN AND SPECIFICALLY JAPANESE COMMUNITIES.

>> YES, YOU KNOW, I THINK FIRST I WANT TO START BY SAYING I DON'T, YOU KNOW, SPEAK FOR THE ENTIRE, YOU KNOW, ASIAN DIE AS PERRA ASIAN AMERICAN COMMUNITY.

BUT I THINK THIS IS A PROBLEM THAT WE CONTINUOUSLY SEE OVER AND OVER AGAIN IS WHEN FOLKS ARE CALLED OUT OR CALLED IN, FOR YOU KNOW, HARMFUL BEHAVIOR THAT RATHER THAN REFLECT AND LISTEN TO THE FOLKS WHO ARE SAYING THIS TO YOU, ALIGN DEFENSIVENESS AND DOUBLING DOWN.

AND SO OFTEN TIMES IT IS ADDING MORE FUEL TO THE FIRE AND KIND OF MORE PAIN ON TOP OF, WE HAVE EXPRESSED HOW WE FEEL TO YOU.

AND YET ARE YOU CONTINUOUSLY DISMISSING US AND RATHER INVALIDATING WHAT WE ARE SAYING TO YOU.

>> AND CANDACE, YOU HAVE BEEN COVERING MUSIC AND POP CULTURE FOR YEARS.

I HAVE READ A LOT OF YOUR WORK.

WHAT DID YOU THINK WHEN YOU HEARD THESE CLAIMS, WHAT SEEMED LIKE A CAVALIER, YOU KNOW, COMMENT IN A MAJOR REPORT.

>> THE FACT THAT SHE EVEN SAID THE PHRASE, YOU KNOW, I'M JAPANESE TO AN ASIAN WOMAN WHO WAS INTERVIEWING HER, DEMONSTRATED HER LACK OF SELF-AWARENESS, HER LACK OF REMORSE AND HER LACK OF ABILITY TO DO THE WORK, TO REALLY INTERGATE WHY APPROPRIATING JAPANESE AESTHETICS IS JUST WRONG.

ESPECIALLY IN 2023, NOW THAT THESE CONVERSATIONS ARE BEING HAD IN SUCH A CON SYNTHS, OPEN AND IMPORTANT LEVEL.

>> >> Haynes: I ALSO WANTED TO PULL UP ANOTHER QUOTE HERE, WHEN WHEN SPEAK TO ALLURE ABOUT HER ADD MIRICIAN AND YOUTH OF THE CULTURE, SHE SAID IF PEOPLE ARE GOING TO CRITICIZE ME FOR BEING A FAN OF SOMETHING BEAUTIFUL, AND SHARING THAT, THEN I JUST THINK THAT THAT DOESN'T FEEL RIGHT.

IT SHOULD BE OKAY TO BE INSPIRED BY THE CULTURES BECAUSE IF WE ARE NOT ALLOWED, THEN IT IS DIVIDING PEOPLE, RIGHT.

THIS IS THE QUESTION SHE POSE POS TO THE JOURNALIST.

IT SEEMS IT IS MORE THAN JUST THIS ADMIRATION, SHE IS PROFITING FROM A CULTURE AND HAS DONE SO FOR YEARS.

>> YEAH, AND YOU KNOW, I'M SURE SHE'LL POINT TO THE DONATIONS SHE HAS MADE TO CHARITABLE ORGANIZATIONS, YOU KNOW.

BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, IT DOES PALE IN COMPARISON TO PROFIT ABILITY.

AND ALSO AGAIN IT POINTS TO THE LACK OF SELF-AWARENESS OF THE IMPACT.

AS ASIAN AMERICAN, WE HAVE CONSISTENTLY BEEN DISCRIMINATED FOR SIMPLY JUST FOR WHO WE WHERE, RIGHT.

NO OTHER FACT ALONE EXCEPT FOR THE FACT THAT WE ARE ASIAN AMERICAN, WE HAVE BEING TARGETED, ATTACKED AND KILLED.

AND NOT TO MENTION WHEN YOU SEE SOMEONE LIKE GWEN STEFANI WHO IS ABLE TO GENERATE SO MUCH REVENUE AND YOU SEE FOLKS WHO ARE ASIAN AMERICAN CONTINUE TO STRUGGLE JUST TO HAVE OPPORTUNITIES T IS INCREDIBLY PAINFUL TO WATCH AND EXPERIENCE.

THAT IS THE PART THAT MAKES IT DIFFICULT.

I DON'T THINK THAT SHE INTENTIONALLY IS TRYING TO CAUSE HARM.

BUT WHEN YOU ARE NOT LISTENING AND YOU ARE CONTINUOUSLY GETTING DEFENSIVE, THAT IS THE PART WHERE FOLKS GET REALLY FRUSTRATED AND ANGRY.

>> IN A TIME OF, AND YOU MENTIONED THIS, IN 2023, IN A TIME WHERE CANCEL CULTURE IS ALIVE AND WELL, IF SEEMS AS THOUGH GWEN STEFANI HAS ESCAPED THIS TO SOME DEGREE.

AND IT HAS BEEN, I MEAN WE WERE CITING EXAMPLES FROM 2004, 2008, THIS MOST RECENT EXAMPLE.

HOW DID SHE FLY UNDER THE RADAR WHILE CONTINUING TO APPROPRIATE THE CULTURE?

>> SHE IS PROTECTED BY THE SHIELD OF WHITE WOMANHOOD.

IT WAS A WOMAN OF COLOR WHO SAID SOMETHING LIKE, THAT I BELIEVE THE REPERCUSSIONS WOULD HAVE BEEN MUCH MORE DIRE.

RIGHT, SHE WILL GET A BIT OF BACKLASH.

PEOPLE WILL TALK ABOUT IT, HAVE SEGMENTS LIKE THESE BUT THEN WILL GO BACK TO HOSTING THE VOICE AND GOING ON TOUR AND SELLING OUT SHOWS BECAUSE SHE HAS THAT SHIELD OF WHITE WHONESS TO PROTECT HER OF IGNORANCE FROM CULTURE APPROPRIATION.

THERE IS NOTHING NEW ON POP CULTURE.

GWEN STEFANI KNOWS WHAT SHE IS SAYING AND DOING, AND STILL WON'T EVER REALLY FACE ANY HARSH REAL CONSEQUENCES FOR IT.

>> Haynes: I WANT TO CITE SOME OTHER EXAMPLES BECAUSE SHE IS NOT THE ONLY PERSON DOING THIS.

WE HAVE KIM KARDASHIAN, WHO FAMOUSLY WORE CORN ROWS AND DEFENDED THAT.

WE HAVE CATIE PIRRY IN 2013, SHE WORE A GEISHA COSTUME TO THE AMA'S, I MEAN, ALL OF THESE PEOPLE ARE STILL VERY RICH, AND VERY MUCH PROFITED AGAINST AT PROCEED OPERATION HERE.

AND IT SEEMED LIKE THE CONVERSATION DIDN'T LEAD TO ANY CHANGE, THEY CONTINUE TO DO THIS.

>> I THINK TOO WHAT IS SO INFUR RATING ABOUT IT IS THAT YOU KNOW, AS MENTIONED EARLIER, ASIAN AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE DYING IN THIS COUNTRY BECAUSE OF RACISM.

YOU KNOW, WHEN THE FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP SAID YOU KNOW, COVID-19 IS THE CHINA VIRUS AND YOU SAW THE YUP TICK IN RAISE VIOLENCE AGAINST ASIAN AMERICANS.

GWEN STEFANI DIDN'T SAY ANYTHING, CATIE PERRY WAS SILENT.

AND I FEEL LIKE THE PROBLEM SU EXTRACT THEIR AESTHETIC, THEIR BEAUTY, THEIR CULTURE FOR MONEY.

AND WHEN IT COMES TO ACTUALLY STAPPING IN SOLIDARITY WITH THESE PEOPLE WHEN THEY ACTUALLY NEED T YOU DON'T SAY ANYTHING.

AND THAT IS WHAT BOTHERED ME SO MUCH ABOUT CULTURE APPROPRIATION FROM THESE ARTISTS.

>> SAM, TEACH ME ABOUT THAT.

BECAUSE IT HAS GOT TO CAUSE AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF HARM.

>> YEAH, AND I THINK PART OF THE OTHER, WHAT I WANT TO BRING UP ISES IS OFTENTIMES WE HAVE THESE CONVERSATIONS, BUT WHAT WILL ALSO HAPPEN IS SOMEONE WILL GO AND SPEAK TO SOMEBODY IN JAPAN OR ASIA AND BE LIKE DO YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THIS.

AND WILL BE LIKE I DON'T UNDERSTAND THE PROBLEM, I DON'T UNDERSTAND THE ISSUE.

BUT IT IS TAKING OUT SO MUCH CONTEXT AND NUANCE, THIS IS A TOPIC THAT CONTEXT AND NUANCE IS SO CRITICALLY IMPORTANT.

WHEN ARE YOU TALKING TO FOLKS IN JAPAN WHO ARE PART OF THE MAJORITY, AND ST A VERY HOMOGENOUS SOCIETY OVER THERE.

SO THEY HAVEN'T EXPERIENCED RACIALAL DISCRIMINATION HERE IN THE UNITED STATES.

THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY IT IS SO FRUSTRATING TO WATCH TIME AND TIME AGAIN.

YOU SEE SOMEONE LIKE GWEN STEFANI A WHITE WOMAN CONTINUOUSLY PROFIT OFF THE BACK AND CULTURE THAT IS NOT HERS.

BUT YET YOU SEE FOLKS FROM YOUR OWN COMMUNITY CONTINUOUSLY SHUT OUT, RIGHT.

WE SAW THIS WITH MICHELLE YEOH, AND EVERYTHING ALL AT ONCE IS NOW BEING CELEBRATED AND ELEVATED.

BUT IT TOOK HER 40 YEARS TO GET TO THAT POINT.

WHEN SHE'S BEEN BRILLIANT FROM THE BEGINNING.

WE HAVE SEEN THIS HAPPEN TO BLACK WOMEN CONSISTENTLY.

WE SEE THIS HAPPEN TO FOLKS OF COLOR CONSISTENTLY.

SO IT JUST ISN'T A ASIAN AMERICAN ISSUE, IT IS A MUCH BROADER CONVERSATION AND THAT WE ARE JUST NOT HAVING AT THE LEVEL THAT IT NEEDS TO BE.

BECAUSE I DO UNDERSTAND AND RECOGNIZE AND CAN APPRECIATE THE FACT THAT IT IS VERY NUANCED AND IT CAN GET DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND.

BUT THE EFFORT AT THIS POINT IN 2023 AS CANDACE MENTIONED, 2023, YOU CAN MAKE THE EFFORT TO LEARN.

>> Haynes: WELL, I MEAN I FEEL LIKE YOU CANTIC MA THE EFFORT ESPECIALLY IF YOU ARE MAKING TENS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS ON THE BACKS OF PEOPLE'S CULTURE.

HOW DIFFICULT IS IT TO HAVE THIS CONVERSATION IN THE MUSIC INDUSTRY TO YOUR THINKING, CANDACE?

>> YOU KNOW, AS SAM JUST MENTIONED, YOU SEE IT HAPPEN WITH BLACK ARTISTS ALL THE TIME.

MILEY CYRUS OR JUSTIN TIMBERLAKE, OR EVEN A KATY PERRY, AGAIN, DIP INTO BLACK CULTURE IF IT IS CONVENIENT TO THEM, A DOUG WHISTLE FOR DE PRARRITY, FOR INAPPROPRIATENESS OR BEING RAUNCHY, THEN THEY MADE THEIR POINT AND THEY LEAVE, TAKE THE MONEY AND LEAVE.

IT HAPPENS OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

AND THEN YOU HAVE UNTALENT-- TALENTED ARTISTS, NO TAL EPT, OKAY.

AND IT IS INFURIATING BECAUSE YOU DON'T EVEN WANT TO STUDY THE ART YOU ARE TRYING TO EMULATE FOR MONEY.

YOU JUST DO WHAT YOU GOT TO DO TAKE THE MONEY AND LEAVE.

SO IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN BUT IT IS SO FRUSTRATING, SO DISHEARTENING THAT IT JUST CONTINUES WITH NO REAL CHANGE.

IN THE INDUSTRY.

>> WHAT ABOUT THAT ARGUMENT, AND I THINK WE'VE ALL HEARD THIS ONE TIME OR ANOTHER IS THAT THIS IS HONORING THIS CULTURE THAT PEOPLE MAY NOT KNOW ABOUT.

WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THAT?

>> I MEAN, WHY NOT ELEVATE THE VOICES OF THE FOLKS WHO ARE ACTUALLY PART OF THE CULTURE, DOING IT, MASTERED IT, UNDERSTAND IT AND EXPERIENCE IT.

ST NOT THAT ANY FOLKS AREN'T WELCOME TO ENJOY ASIAN AMERICAN CULTURE, ASIAN CULTURE, KOREAN CULTURE, THAT IS NOT WHAT PEOPLE ARE SAYS.

THE THING IS THERE IS A WAY IN WHICH TO DO IT, THIS SAY CULTURE, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT CULTURE APPROPRIATION SO CULTURE HAS TO BE AT THE CENTER OF WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT.

AND ONE OF THE CORE TENANTS OF MANY ASIAN CULTURES IS RESPECT AND TRADITION.

AND SO THIS ISN'T JUST AN ASIAN AMERICAN CULTURAL PHENOMENON OR TENET.

IN ANYTHING THAT YOU DO, FOLKS AREN'T GOING TO BE APG REE IF YOU APPROACH IT WITH THE KIND OF RESPECT THAT IS DESERVES, QUITE FRANKLY.

AND WHEN YOU COME IN AND DO IT HOWEVER YOU WANT AND THEN AFTERWARDS WHEN FOLKS TRY TO CALL YOU OUT OP T YOU DOUBLE DOWN AND GET DEFENSIVE, THAT IS SHOWING A DIRECT SIGN OF DISRESPECT.

AND THAT IS WHERE A LOT OF FOLKS DRAW THE LINE.

I GUARANTEE MOST PEOPLE AREN'T UPSET IF YOU GENUINELY MAKE AN ATTEMPT TO INGRATIATE YOURSELF AND LEARN THE CULTURE THE RIGHT WAY, BUT IF YOU DON'T, THAT IS WHEN PEOPLE GET UPSET AND PEOPLE ARE JUSTIFIED.

>> CANDACE IN OUR LAST 30 SECONDS OR SO, HOW DO WE DO BETTER WITH THIS?

I THINK WE NEED TO CONTINUE TO HOLD THESE PEOPLE ACCOUNTABLE.

AND IT NEEDS TO HAPPEN AT A HIGHER LEVEL.

WE CAN TALK ABOUT IT.

WE TALK ABOUT IT ON SOCIAL MEDIA AND HERE AND DIFFERENT FORUMS BUT THERE NEEDS TO BE REAL TRUE ACCOUNTABILITY.

AND OFTEN THAT COMES IN THE FORM OF THEM LOSING MONEY.

TAKE AWAY THE PROFITS AND I BET YOU THEY WILL STOP.

>> Haynes: THAT CERTAINLY IS ONE WAY TO DO IT, ABSOLUTELY.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME >> Haynes: CANDACE McDUFFIE, SAM HYUN, THANKS.

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT.

WE'LL BE BACK TOMORROW WITH GBH NEWS' DEPUTY INVESTIGATIVE EDITOR JENIFER McKIM ON HER LATEST STORY: "WORKING LIKE A SLAVE: WHY HUMAN TRAFFICKING IN RESTAURANTS IS UNDERREPORTED."

THAT AND MORE, TOMORROW AT 7:00.

THANKS FOR WATCHING.

GOOD NIGHT.

Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org