>> Neisloss: I'M LIZ NEISLOSS.

TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON:" WE'LL DIG INTO THE LATEST INVESTIGATIVE REPORT FROM GBH NEWS' SERIES "TRAFFICKING, INC." ON FORCED LABOR IN MASSACHUSETTS RESTAURANTS.

PLUS, BOSTON SCHOOLS SUPERINTENDENT MARY SKIPPER IS PROMISING TO OVERHAUL THE SYSTEM'S SPECIAL EDUCATION PROGRAMS AND ROOT OUT RACISM, BUT SOME PARENTS SAY THEY'VE HEARD THESE PROMISES BEFORE.

♪♪ >> NEISLOSS: WHEN WE HEAR ABOUT HUMAN TRAFFICKING AND SLAVERY, THE IMAGE OF PHYSICAL CAPTIVITY MAY COME TO MIND-- BUT THERE ARE OTHER FORMS OF FORCED LABOR, HARDER TO IDENTIFY, AND EVEN MORE PREVALENT.

THAT INCLUDES IN THE RESTAURANT INDUSTRY, AS THE GBH NEWS' CENTER FOR INVESTIGATIVE REPORTING'S SERIES "TRAFFICKING, INC." LAYS OUT.

AND CASES HAVE LONG GONE UNDERREPORTED.

ACROSS THE COUNTRY, AND HERE IN MASSACHUSETTS, RESTAURANTS TOP THE LIST OF INDUSTRIES WITH WAGE AND HOUR VIOLATIONS, WHICH, ACCORDING TO THE REPORT, CAN BE SYMPTOMS OF MORE SEVERE EXPLOITATION.

AWARD-WINNING INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER AND DEPUTY INVESTIGATIVE EDITOR JENIFER MCKIM SPOKE TO WORKERS, WHO DESCRIBED LOW WAGES, LONG HOURS, AND AN ENVIRONMENT THAT MADE THEM TOO AFRAID TO SPEAK UP OUT OF FEAR OF COMPROMISING THEIR IMMIGRATION STATUS OR LOSING THEIR JOBS.

THAT INCLUDES BILLY, WHO ASKED GBH TO ONLY USE HIS NICKNAME.

>> UNO PERMANECE COMO ESCONDIDO, COMO PRISIONERO EN ESTE PAIÍS Y YO YA ME CANSEÉ DE SER UN PRISIONERO.

>> (/ TRANSLATED/ ): WE REMAIN HIDDEN, LIKE PRISONERS, IN THIS COUNTRY, AND I AM TIRED OF BEING A PRISONER.

>> NEISLOSS: JENIFER MCKIM, WHOSE VOICE YOU JUST HEARD WITH BILLY'S TRANSLATION, JOINS ME NOW, ALONG WITH AMY FARRELL, PROFESSOR AT NORTHEASTERN'S SCHOOL OF CRIMINOLOGY AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE, AND CO-DIRECTOR OF THE VIOLENCE AND JUSTICE RESEARCH LAB.

>> Neisloss: THANK YOU BOTH FOR JOINING US.

JEN, CAN WE START WITH YOU.

EXPLAIN WHAT WAS BILLY'S STORY.

>> SO BILLY CAME TO THE UNITED STATES FROM EL SALVADOR, UNDOCUMENTED, ABOUT 15 YEARS AGO, STARTED WORKING IN A RESTAURANT IN WHAT THEY CALL THE BACK OF THE HOUSE, WORKING AS A DISHWASHER, EARNING $6, WORKING 85 HOURS A WEEK.

NO OVERTIME, NO BREAKS, NO DAYS OFF, NO SICK DAYS.

HE SAID HE WORKED AND HE WORKED AND WORKED LIKE A SLAVE.

AND HE WAS TOO AFRAID TO TELL PEOPLE OR TO ASK FOR ANYTHING BECAUSE HE DIDN'T HAVE WORK AUTHORIZATION.

SO HE KEPT THIS JOB BECAUSE HE FELT LIKE IT WAS THE ONLY THING HE COULD DO FOR YEARS AND YEARS, UNTIL HE FINALLY REALIZED THAT HE COULD BREAK OUT OF IT.

>> Neisloss: SO A LOT OF THE PROBLEMS IN THE RESTAURANT INDUSTRY FOCUS ON WAGE VIOLATIONS.

SO LET'S LOOK AT SOME STATISTICS THAT WE HAVE.

THE U.S. DEPARTMENT OF LABOR STATISTICS ON LOW WAGE AND HIGH VIOLATION CASES IN THE U.S.

IN 2022, THERE WERE ALMOST 4,000 CASES, AND BACK WAGES WERE OWED MORE THAN $27 MILLION.

AND MORE THAN 22,000 EMPLOYEES WERE IMPACTED.

AMY, CAN YOU TELL US, IS THIS ONLY A PIECE OF THE ABUSE STORY?

>> RIGHT.

SO ISSUES AROUND WAGE THEFT OR WAGE VIOLATIONS ARE PART OF A PUZZLE THAT WE SEE WITH WORKERS THAT EXPERIENCE NUMEROUS VIOLATIONS AT THEIR WORK SITE.

WORK ON A CONTINUUM, FROM MAYBE LOWER LEVEL, CIVIL VIOLATIONS OF THE FAIR LABOR STANDARD ACT, TO MORE SEVERE VIOLATIONS OF A CIVIL NATURE, MOVING INTO MORE EGREGIOUS VIOLATIONS THAT WOULD BE CLASSIFIED AS CRIMINAL LABOR VIOLATIONS.

THOSE ARE VIOLATIONS WHERE THE THINGS THAT JENIFER DESCRIBES IN THIS PIECE, LOW WAGES, THREATS ON HOUSING, DEPORTATION, UNLAWFUL USE OF THE AUTHORITIES OF THE LAW, KEEP A PERSON COERCED, FORCED, OR DEFRAUD TODD DEFRAUDED TO STAY IN A JOB.

PEOPLE ARE UNABLE TO LEAVE BAD JOBS BECAUSE OF FORCED COERCION.

>> Neisloss: SO THE RESTAURANT INDUSTRY SEEMS TO BE VERY FERTILE GROUND THESE KIND OF ABUSE.

WHY IS THAT?

>> THERE ARE LOTS OF INDUSTRIES.

AND THE THEORIES GO INTO NUMEROUS INDUSTRIES, WHERE THERE ARE LOWER LEVELS OF REGULATION, WHERE WE TEND NOT TO BE ASKING QUESTIONS THAT WE SHOULD BE ASKING QUESTIONS AS CONSUMERS, AND RESTAURANTS ARE ONE OF THOSE.

WHERE WE HAVE WORK PLACES THAT OFTENTIMES HAVE HIGH TURNOVER.

WHERE YOU HAVE PEOPLE WHO ARE HIDDEN FROM PUBLIC VIEW, THAT WORK IN THE BACK OF THE HOUSE.

WHERE PEOPLE WHO WORK MAY NOT SPEAK ENGLISH.

AND WHERE THERE IS AN ASSUMPTION THAT A FAMILY-OWNED RESTAURANT IS A HAPPY PLACE HAPPY PLACE THAT EVERYONE WORKS, AND YOU ENJOY YOUR MEAL, AND YOU FEEL THE FEE YOU PAY IS A FAIR WAGE FOR WORKERS.

BUT WE HAVE NO IDEA.

WHERE INDIVIDUALS MAY BE TAKING JOBS WHEN THEY MAY NOT BE ABLE TO LEAVE THOSE JOBS.

AND THEY MAY SUFFERING FROM CIVIL LABOR ABUSES OR LABOR TRAFFICKING.

>> Neisloss: A LOT OF VICTIMS ARE CONFUSED ABOUT THIS SORT OF CRIME.

THEY KNOW THEY'RE NOT GETTING THE RIGHT WAGES, THEY'RE WORKING LONG HOURS, BUT THEY'RE UNCERTAIN ABOUT THE TRAFFICKING PIECE OF IT.

CAN YOU EXPLAIN THAT CONFUSION?

>> I HAVE TO SAY EVERYBODY IS, LAW ENFORCEMENT, GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS -- THIS IS SOMETHING THAT IS REALLY STARTING TO BE DISCUSSED.

AND AIM AMY FARRELL IS AT THE FOREFRONT OF THIS DISCUSSION.

BUT PEOPLE HAVE FOR A LONG, LONG TIME DIDN'T REALLY REALIZE THEY WERE CONFUSED WITH WAGE AND HOUR DISPUTES, AND NOT CONSIDERED TRAFFICKING.

SEX TRAFFICKING, WHICH IS ALSO A HUGE PROBLEM IN THE UNITED STATES, IS NOW BETTER UNDERSTOOD.

SOME SAY 20 YEARS AHEAD OF WHAT WE UNDERSTAND ABOUT LABOR TRAFFICKING.

>> Neisloss: AND BETTER PROSECUTED, I'VE HEARD?

>> RIGHT.

>> THERE IS LIKE THE VAST MAJORITY OF CRIMINAL PROSECUTIONS ARE RELATED TO SEX TRAFFICKING, NOT LABOR TRAFFICKING.

IN FACT, AS PART OF OUR INVESTIGATION, AND THE RESTAURANT PART IS DAY THREE OF OUR SERIES, WE FOUND THERE WAS A LAW PASSED IN 2011 TO CREATE MORE PROSECUTIONS OF HUMAN TRAFFICKING, AND SO FAR THERE HAS NOT YET BEEN ONE CONVICTION IN THE LABOR TRAFFICING ARENA.

>> Neisloss: WHY IS THAT?

>> THERE ARE A LOT OF REASONS.

WE HAVE MISCONCEPTIONS ABOUT TRAFFICKING.

IT WAS FAIRLY EASY TO GET LAW ENFORCEMENT TO LOOK AT SEX TRAFFICKING.

IT WAS SOMETHING THAT LAW ENFORCEMENT WAS ALREADY DOING.

WE HAD A HISTORY OF UNDERSTANDING THERE COULD BE VIOLENCE WITHIN COMMERCIAL SEX INDUSTRIES.

SO LAW ENFORCEMENT GRAVITATED TO DOING SOMETHING THAT FIT THE PROFILE THAT LAW ENFORCEMENT TRADITIONALLY HAD NORMALLY DONE.

AND SEX TRAFFICKING HAD MORE SYMPATHY, SO THEY FOLLOWED THE PUBLIC DEMAND FOR THEM TO LOOK AT COMMERCIAL SEX INDUSTRY.

LABOR TRAFFICING TRAFFICKING AND LABOR VIOLATIONS IS NOT SOMETHING THAT THE POLICE USUALLY LOOK AT.

IT IS NOT SOMETHING THAT IS A CRIMINAL VIOLATION.

WHEN THE PUBLIC THINKS ABOUT TRAFFICKING, THEY THINK OF SEX TRAFFICKING AND NOT LABOR TRAFFICKING.

>> Neisloss: WHERE ON THE ENFORCEMENT SIDE DOES THIS NEED TO BE PICKED UP?

THERE IS THIS CONFUSION BOTH ON THE VICTIMS' SIDE AND THE LAW ENFORCEMENT SIDE ABOUT WHETHER IT IS A WAGE ISSUE, WHETHER IT IS A TRAFFICKING ISSUE.

WHERE IN THE CHANGE SHOULD THIS BE PICKED UP AS TRAFFICKING?

>> I THINK IT SHOULD BE PICKED UP IN ALL PLACES AS TRAFFICKING.

THERE IS BETTER EDUCATION NEEDED BY THE GENERAL PUBLIC ABOUT THE FACT THAT THINGS THAT HAPPEN TO INDIVIDUALS IN WORK PLACES MAY, IN FACT, BE VIOLATIONS.

THERE MAY BE PEOPLE HARMED.

WE HAVE THIS IDEA OF WORK AS SOMETHING YOU NEED TO STRUGGLE THROUGH, AND AS PART OF THE WORKER IMMIGRATION, YOU NEEDED TO HAVE TERRIBLE JOBS AND YOU NEED TO EARN YOUR PLACE.

AND FOR INDIVIDUALS WHO MAY BE INAPPROPRIATELY HOUSED, WE HAVE VERY LITTLE SYMPATHY FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE TO DO THIS WORK.

>> Neisloss: DO YOU HEAR THIS FROM VICTIMS, THAT THIS IS PART OF THE STRUGGLE -- >> BILLY, FOR EXAMPLE, WAS I GOT THIS JOB.

I JUST CAME HERE.

I OWED $18,000 I PAID TO COME TO THE UNITED STATES.

ALL I WAS TRYING TO DO WAS SURVIVE.

SO HE DIDN'T REALLY REALIZE.

AND THEN HE MET SOME FOLKS, THE WORKERS' CENTERS' ADVOCATE.

WHO TOLD THEM EVEN IF YOU DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT PAPERS, THEY CAN'T TREAT YOU LIKE THAT.

SO HE LEFT THAT FIRST JOB, AND ENDED UP WITH ANOTHER BAD JOB, ALSO, BECAUSE WHAT OTHER OPPORTUNITIES ARE THERE?

SO IT WAS DEFINITELY A STRUGGLE.

>> Neisloss: YOU MENTIONED A PIECE OF THIS THAT I'M CURIOUS ABOUT, THE AMOUNT OF MONEY THAT A LOT OF TRAFFICKED PEOPLE HAVE TO PAY.

IF THEY RECEIVE HELP, WHAT HAPPENS TO THE FAMILY THEY MAY LEAVE BEHIND?

>> EVEN IN CASES OF NATIONAL VICTIMS, AND THERE CAN BE U.S. CITIZENS VICTIMS AND OTHER VICTIMS.

THEY ARE INCREDIBLY UNDERRECOGNIZED.

FOR FOREIGN NATIONALS THAT MAY COME TO THE UNITED STATES OWING A SET, EVEN IF THEY RECEIVE A TV SET, EVEN IF THEY RECEIVE ASSISTANCE, THAT SMUGGLING DEBTS -- >> Neisloss: THE TVs ARETVsARE SPECIAL VISAS.

>> IT ALLOWS THEM TO STAY IN THE UNITED STATES, AND ASSUMING ALL GOES WELL, THEY CAN APPLY FOR A GREEN CARD.

THAT DOESN'TARY RAISE THE DOESN'T ERASE THE DEBT.

THERE STILL MAY BE A SITUATION WHERE THOSE INDIVIDUALS ARE THREATENED.

LOTS OF INDIVIDUALS WHO RECEIVE "T" RES VISAS MAY END UP VULNERABLE BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO CONTINUE TO PAY OFF THIS DEBT.

>> Neisloss: TELL US ABOUT THE SLICE THAT MOST PEOPLE DON'T KNOW ABOUT, TRAFFICKING IN THIS COUNTRY.

MOST PEOPLE THINK IT IS COMING FROM ANOTHER COUNTRY, THEY'RE SMUGGLED IN.

WHAT IS GOING ON IN THE COUNTRY?

>> WHEN WE THINK OF LABOR TRAFFICKING, WE THINK ABOUT WHO WERE BROUGHT HERE, WHO OWE A DEBT, WHO MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE A VISA.

FOR U.S.

VISAS, THERE ARE INDIVIDUALS THAT MAY HAVE A CRIMINAL HISTORY, AND AN EMPLOYER CAN HOLD THAT OVER THEM TO KEEP THEM COERCED INTO EMPLOYMENT.

THEY MAY BE INSECURELY HOUSED, SO THE EMPLOYER HAS HOUSING SIDE TO THE EMPLOYMENT.

AND IF THEY QUIT LIKE JOB, THEY LOSE THEIR HOUSING.

AND THERE MAY BE INDIVIDUALS WHERE THEY HAVE DRUG AND ALCOHOL DEPENDENCY, AND THAT IS USED AGAINST THEM, EITHER TO MAKE THAT KNOWN OR TO KEEP THEM IN SITUATIONS.

WHETHER WE'RE TALKING ABOUT AGRICULTURAL,-RESISTANTS, CONSTRUCTION, DOMESTIC SERVITUDE, WE SEE U.S. CITIZENS INVOLVED IN A WIDE RANGE OF SITUATIONS WHERE THEY'RE VULNERABLE.

>> WHAT AMY SAYS ABOUT CHILDREN -- I HOPE THIS IS AN ONGOING SERIES.

AND ONE IS THE AREA OF TRAFFICKING WITH CHILDREN, WHICH WE DON'T UNDERSTAND WITH LABOR TRAFFICKING, AND WE'RE MUCH MORE KNOWLEDGEABLE RELATED TO SEX TRAFFICKING.

THERE ARE YOUNG PEOPLE PERHAPS INVOLVED WITH GANGS, BEING FORCED TO SELL DRUGS.

AND PEOPLE ARE BEGINNING TO REALIZE WE NEED TO CHANGE THIS LANGUAGE.

THEY ARE ALSO VICTIMS, TOO.

>> Neisloss: SO THIS IS GOING TO TAKE A LOT MORE MONEY, OF COURSE.

A LOT MORE WILL ON THE PART OF GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS.

WHAT DO YOU THINK IS NEEDED TO REALLY DIG INTO THE PROBLEM?

>> YOU KNOW, AND I THINK AT THE END OF THE DAY, WE'VE APPROACHED THIS FROM SORT OF THE CRIMINAL PROSECUTION, HUMAN TRAFFICKING ANGLE, BUT I SEE THERE IS A POSSIBILITY IN THE WORKERS' RIGHTS ANGLES.

WE HAVE LARGER CONVERSATIONS ABOUT WHY RESTAURANTS CAN'T REOPEN BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE STAFF, BECAUSE PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO COME BACK AND WORK WHERE THERE IS SEXUAL ABUSE OR EXPLOITATION.

WE HAVE THIS LARGER CONVERSATION ABOUT TREATING PEOPLE FAIRLY IN WORK PLACES, AND HAVING MONITORING AND ACCOUNTABILITY IN WORK PLACES.

OFTENTIMES LABOR TRAFFICKING VICTIMS DON'T WANT THEIR PERPETRATORS PRODUCE HELP HELPPERPETRATORSPROSECUTED, BUT THEY DON'T WANT IT TO HAPPEN ANYMORE.

I DON'T KNOW THAT THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SEMI- SYSTEM IS ALWAYS THE RIGHT AVENUE.

IF WE CAN TIE IT INTO MORE CONVERSATIONS ABOUT HOW WE TREAT PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY WHO ARE WORKING, WE MAY HAVE MORE SUCCESS.

>> Neisloss: WE SHOULD SAY, JEN, THAT THE RESTAURANT ASSOCIATION SAYS IT IS UNFAIR TO LINK WAGE AND HOUR VIOLATIONS TO TRAFFICKING.

WHAT DID YOU HEAR FROM THEM?

>> I HAD AN E-MAIL CONVERSATION WITH THE HEAD OF THE HEAD OF THE MASSACHUSETTS RESTAURANT ASSOCIATION WHO DID SAY IT IS UNFAIR TO LINK THEM, THAT THESE ARE OFTEN VIOLATIONS THAT ARE PAPERWORK AND ISSUES THAT ARE NOT SO LARGE.

AND, AMS, IT IS ALSO, IT IS A HUGE MINORITY COMPARED TO ALL OF THE RESTAURANTS WE ALL LOVE TO EAT AT.

AND WE SPOKE TO ADVOCATES WHO SAY I CAN HARDLY GO BACK TO EAT BECAUSE I WORRY ABOUT WHO IS IN THE BACK SHOP.

>> Neisloss: WE HAVE 30 SECONDS LEFT.

AMY, IF YOU'RE A DINER, AND YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT'S GOING ON IN THE BACK OF THE HOUSE, ARE THERE THINGS DINERS CAN DO TO UNDERSTAND WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE RESTAURANT THEY'RE GOING TO?

>> WAGE AND HOUR VIOLATION DATA, H2A OR H2B INFORMATION IS PUBLICLY AVAILABLE.

YOU CAN BE THINKING ABOUT THE FACT THERE ARE CASES IN THE STATE WHERE WE HAVE WAGE AND HOUR CLAIMS AGAINST THE RESTAURANTS, AND MAYBE WE DON'T PATRONIZE THOSE RESTAURANTS.

I THINK THERE IS ALSO THE IDEA OF GETTING TO KNOW THE PEOPLE IN RESTAURANTS, SAYING HELLO, BEING POLITE, AND TREATING OTHER PEOPLE LIKE HUMAN BEINGS THAT WORK IN ALL PLACES OF THE RESTAURANT, NOT JUST YOUR WAIT STAFF.

AND BEING VIGILANT ABOUT THE FACT THAT PEOPLE MAY NOT BE IN A POSITION WHERE THEY CAN ALWAYS ASK FOR HELP.

>> Neisloss: THANK YOU.

NEXT UP, IT'S NO SECRET THE BOSTON PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM HAS BEEN STRUGGLING.

IT NARROWLY AVOIDED A STATE TAKEOVER LAST YEAR, AFTER THE DEPARTMENT OF ELEMENTARY AND SECONDARY EDUCATION FOUND IT FAILED TO MEET A SLEW OF GOALS SET AFTER THE LAST STATE PROBE INTO THE SYSTEM.

AMONG THEM, THE DEPARTMENT CITED "A LACK OF URGENCY IN IMPROVING SPECIAL EDUCATION SERVICES."

BUT NOW, SUPERINTENDENT MARY SKIPPER, WHO TOOK THE HELM OF B.P.S.

LAST YEAR, IS PROMISING TO MAKE SOME SWEEPING CHANGES.

ONE OF HER MAIN FOCUSES?

THE DISTRICT'S LONG HISTORY OF FUNNELING BLACK AND BROWN STUDENTS INTO SPECIAL EDUCATION CLASSES AT MUCH HIGHER RATES THAN THEIR WHITE PEERS.

SUPERINTENDENT SKIPPER RECENTLY TOLD GBH, "THERE'S NO WAY I'M GOING TO COME IN AND BE AN EFFECTIVE SUPERINTENDENT AND NOT DEAL WITH THIS STRAIGHT UP.

SO THAT'S WHAT I'M GOING TO DO."

JOINING ME TO DISCUSS ARE RUBY REYES, DIRECTOR OF THE BOSTON EDUCATION JUSTICE ALLIANCE, AND MICHAEL KREZMIEN, A PROFESSOR OF SPECIAL EDUCATION AT UMASS AMHERST, AND THE DIRECTOR FOR THE SCHOOL'S CENTER FOR YOUTH ENGAGEMENT.

>> Neisloss: RUBY, YOU'VE HEARD PROMISES BEFORE OF HELP FOR THE SPECIAL EDUCATION SYSTEM.

CAN YOU BOIL DOWN FOR US WHAT THE ESSENTIAL PROBLEM IS THAT NEEDS TO BE FIXED, FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE?

>> WELL, I THINK MOST RECENTLY, THE COUNCIL OF GREAT CITY SCHOOLS DID ANOTHER REPORT ON THE THINGS THAT SHOULD BE FIXED.

SPECIFICALLY, IT ALMOST MIRRORED WHAT WAS WRITTEN IN 2009, IN THE 2009 REPORT.

SO I THINK IT'S JUST A MATTER OF, YOU KNOW, WE'RE ALL KIND OF WAITING FOR THE PROOF IN THE PUDDING.

AS OF RIGHT NOW, THERE IS NO PUDDING.

THERE IS NO RECIPE.

THERE ISN'T EVEN A FLAVOR CHOSEN.

AND SO I THINK FOR US, FOR MYSELF, FOR MANY OF OUR MEMBERS, FOR FAMILIES THAT HAVE BEEN IN THIS PROCESS AND HEARD THESE PROMISES BEFORE, WE'RE REALLY FRUSTRATED AND WE'RE REALLY AT A VERY -- JUST A REALLY URGENT STATE OF NEEDING SOME WORK TO BE DONE.

>> Neisloss: SO LET'S LOOK AT SOME OF THE NUMBERS THAT GIVE PEOPLE A LITTLE BIT OF THE CONTEXT FOR THIS.

WHEN YOU COMPARE BOSTON AND MASSACHUSETTS TO THE REST OF THE COUNTRY, BOSTON'S SUBSTANTIALLY SEPARATE RATE, THAT'S PLACING STUDENTS IN A SUBSTANTIALLY SEPARATE SETTING -- AND THIS IS FROM A NOVEMBER '22 REPORT BY A NON-PROFIT HIRED BY THE BOSTON PUBLIC SCHOOLS, AND BOSTON HAS 29% RATE, MASSACHUSETTS 14%, AND THE U.S. OVER ALL, 13%.

SO, MICHAEL, HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THESE NUMBERS?

DOES THIS SEEM STRIKING TO YOU?

AND YOU MIGHT REALLY WANT TO EXPLAIN TO PEOPLE WHAT SUBSTANTIALLY SEPARATE MEANS FOR STUDENTS.

>> SURE.

YEAH.

IT DOES SEEM STRIKING.

SUBSTANTIALLY SEPARATE IS AN EDUCATIONAL SETTING THAT HAS BEEN REMOVED FROM THE ACCESS TO THE TYPICAL EDUCATIONAL SETTING.

OFTEN THESE ARE SEGREGATED CLASSROOMS WHERE STUDENTS SPEND THEIR DAY IN AN ISOLATED CLASSROOM, RECEIVING INSTRUCTION FROM SPECIAL EDUCATORS, OR SPECIAL SCHOOLS WITH SPECIALIZED PROGRAMS WITHIN THEM.

I WOULD SAY, TO ME, THE BIGGEST UNDERLYING KIND OF CAUSE OF HIGH RATES OF KIDS AND THESE SETTINGS IS FAILURE OF THE EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM TO AFFECTIVELY MANAGE AND EDUCATE THE KIDS.

SO THAT THE CLASSROOM SETTINGS ARE STRUGGLING, TEACHERS ARE STRUGGLING, AND INSTEAD OF REVIVING THE EDUCATION, REVISING THE CURRICULUM, MEETING THE NEEDS OF THOSE STUDENTS, THE EASIER OPTION IS TO HAVE THEM SENT TO ANOTHER SETTING WHERE THEY'LL SAY THIS IS A MORE SPECIALIZED ENVIRONMENT THAT THEY CAN GET BETTER SERVICES AND SUPPORT.

>> Neisloss: MICHAEL, WHAT IS IT THEY LOSE BY BEING CARVED OUT OF THE REGULAR CLASSROOM?

>> I THINK IT IS A WIDE SWAY OF THINGS THAT GET LOST.

FIRST, I THINK ACCESS TO THAT GENERAL EDUCATION CURRICULUM, FROM CONTENT INSTRUCTORS.

SO ANY PERSON WHO IS TRAINED TO BE A MATH TEACHER TEACHING YOU MATH.

I THINK IT IS ALSO A REMOVAL FROM THE SOCIAL STRUCTURES OF SCHOOL.

THEY DON'T GET ACCESS TO THE SAME TYPES OF SPECIAL PROGRAMS THAT KIDS MIGHT GET.

THEY MIGHT NOT HAVE ART CLASS OR MUSIC CLASS.

AND I THINK IT'S BROAD AND SWEEPING.

I THINK THE STUDENTS WHO ARE IN THE SEGREGATED SETTINGS HAVE A VASTLY DIFFERENT EXPERIENCE.

AND, TO BE HONEST, IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO REINTEGRATE THEM WITHOUT A PRAN FORPLAN FOR HOW THEY'RE GOING TO MEET THESE NEEDS.

>> Neisloss: A PARTICULAR ASPECT OF BOSTON'S PUBLIC SPECIAL EDUCATION PROGRAM IMPACTS BLACK AND LATINO MALES.

SO LET'S LOOK AT SOME OF THE STATISTICS THAT WE HAVE.

BLACK MALES GOING INTO SPECIAL EDUCATION, 24% COMPARED TO THEIR REPRESENTATION IN THE OVERALL POPULATION OF 14%.

LATINOS, 29%, COMPARED TO THEIR REPRESENTATION OF 21%.

AND WHITE STUDENTS, 8% IN SPECIAL ED, AND VERY CLOSE MATCH, 7% IN THE SCHOOL SYSTEM OVER ALL.

RUBY, WHAT DOES THIS SAY TO YOU?

>> UM, IT SAYS TO ME THAT BOSTON CONTINUES TO HAVE A LEGACY OF INSTITUTIONAL RACISM, THAT IT HAS HISTORICALLY HAD AND HISTORICALLY HAS CONTINUED THROUGH POLICIES, THROUGH PLACEMENT OF STUDENTS, THROUGH -- I MEAN, JUST THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE SYSTEM.

I THINK THE CULTURE OF THE LEADERSHIP AND CENTRAL OFFICE MAKES IT CRITICAL FOR FAMILIES TO HAVE ACCESS TO THE RESOURCES THAT THEY NEED.

AND MANY TIMES YOU SEE BLACK AND LATINO FAMILIES BEING DENIED SERVICES OR TOLD, YOU KNOW, THAT THEY CAN'T HAVE CERTAIN THINGS.

AND I THINK THAT'S PART OF WHAT MAKES IT DIFFICULT FOR FAMILIES TO HAVE ACCESS TO THE RESOURCES THAT THEY NEED FOR THEIR CHILDREN TO BE PLACED IN THE RIGHT SETTINGS.

>> Neisloss: SO, MICHAEL, CAN YOU EXPLAIN MONEY IS A PART OF THIS?

YOU KNOW, STUDENTS -- FAMILIES WITH MONEY CAN ACTUALLY MOVE TO PLACES WHERE THERE IS GREAT SPECIAL EDUCATION.

I'VE HEARD STORIES ABOUT LAWYERS WHO ARE HIRED BY FAMILIES TO MAKE SURE THAT THESE INDIVIDUAL EDUCATIONAL PROGRAMS, THESE SORT OF TAILORED PROGRAMS TO HELP THEIR STUDENTS, ARE DONE THE RIGHT WAY.

HOW DOES MONEY PLAY INTO ALL OF THIS?

>> YEAH.

I THINK MONEY AND KIND OF SORT OF KNOWLEDGE THAT CAN BE OBTAINED THROUGH SOME OF THE TYPES OF, YOU KNOW, ELEMENTS YOU JUST TALKED ABOUT, HAVING AN ADVOCATE WHO CAN HELP YOU, BEING ABLE TO HIRE AN ATTORNEY WHO CAN WALK YOU THROUGH THE SYSTEM.

SPECIAL EDUCATION IS A VERY COMPLEX SYSTEM.

AS RUBY POINTS OUT, IT'S VERY DIFFICULT FOR PARENTS TO UNDERSTAND WHAT IS HAPPENING.

THERE IS NOT A LOT OF RESOURCES FOR PARENTS TO HELP THEM UNDERSTAND WHAT IS THE BEST DECISION?

WHAT ARE THE OPTIONS AVAILABLE TO US?

SO YOU CAN IMAGINE SOMEBODY WHO DOES HAVE MONEY AND HAS THE CAPACITY TO HIRE SPECIAL EDUCATION ADVOCACY ATTORNEY CAN GET THE SERVICES THEY NEED THROUGH THAT EXPERTISE.

WHILE OTHERS WITHOUT THOSE RESOURCES ARE LEFT TO SORT OF TAKE WHAT THE DISTRICT IS PROVIDING.

IN AN I.E.P.

PROCESS, IT IS OFTEN SCHOOL AND DISTRICT-DOMINATED, WITH RELATIVELY LITTLE VOICE FROM PARENTS.

>> Neisloss: SO YOU TALK ABOUT THE COMPLEXITY OF SPECIAL EDUCATION, MICHAEL.

PART OF THE ASSESSMENT PROCESS TO THE SPECIAL EDUCATION PROGRAM, IT IS SOMEWHAT SUBJECTIVE, REALLY.

IT RELIES ON THE TEACHER.

IT CAN BE IMPACTED BY BIAS.

CAN YOU EXPLAIN HOW IT IS THAT IT BECOMES A SUBJECT SUBJECTIVE PROCESS?

>> YEAH.

I BELIEVE, ESPECIALLY WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE PROBLEMS THAT ARE BEING FACED IN A DISTRICT LIKE BOSTON, I THINK THERE IS A RANGE OF ISSUES GOING ON.

I WOULD SAY TO START WITH, TO PIGGYBACK A LITTLE OFF OF RUBY'S POINT, I THINK THE EDUCATION BEING PROVIDED TO KIDS OF COLOR IN THEIR SCHOOLS IS NOT GETTING THEM UP TO THE LEVEL THAT THEY NEED TO BE.

AND SO THESE GAPS IN SKILLS ARE MISINTERPRETED AS A DISABLED, AS OPPOSED TO WE HAVE FAILED TO DO OUR JOB IN PROVIDING AFFECTIVE INSTRUCTION.

I THINK FROM THAT POINT - ON, YOU KNOW, WE DON'T HAVE A SYSTEM THAT SAYS HERE IS THE ONLY WAY TO IDENTIFY A KID WITH A DISABILITY.

IT IS A LAW THAT IS PRETTY BROAD.

THE INDIVIDUALS WITH DISABILITIES EDUCATION ACT, AND IT DOESN'T GIVE YOU A, LIKE, HERE IS THE POINT BY POINT STEPS THAT EVERYBODY FOLLOWS.

INSTEAD, THERE IS A LOT OF SUBJECTSUBJECTIVETY.

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE LAWS WHERE WE CAN MEASURE WHAT IS CURRENTLY AVAILABLE TO US.

>> Neisloss: RUBY, THERE ARE A LOT OF STUDENTS FOR WHOM ENGLISH IS A SECOND LANGUAGE.

HOW DOES THAT PLAY INTO THE PROBLEM?

>> WELL, I THINK SOMETIMES WHEN A CHILD, BECAUSE THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO OFFER NATIVE LANGUAGE LITERACY, AND THEY DON'T NECESSARILY DO THAT AS THE BEGINNING PLACE, I THINK THAT'S WHERE STUDENTS ARE MISPLACED.

SO THEY CAN BE PUT INTO SPECIAL ED, NOT REALIZING THAT IT IS JUST A MATTER OF THEM NEEDING TO HAVE ENGLISH LANGUAGE LITERACY ACCESS.

AND SO YOU SEE THIS RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN NECESSITY AND RESOURCES AND HOW IMPORTANT IT IS FOR FAMILIES TO KNOW AND BE ABLE TO HAVE ACCESS TO THAT INFORMATION.

IT'S HARD ENOUGH -- WE HAD ONE MOTHER, FOR EXAMPLE, WHOSE CHILD NEEDED DOOR-TO-DOOR BUS SERVICE BECAUSE OF A MEDICAL CONDITION, AND SHE HAD TO OBTAIN A LAWYER TO WRITE A LETTER TO GET THAT SIMPLE THING.

AND SO IT'S A DIFFICULT PROCESS.

I THINK IF YOU HAVE FAMILIES WHOSE FIRST LANGUAGE IS NOT ENGLISH, AND WHO AREN'T MAYBE AS ATTUNED TO THE COMPLEXITIES AND UNDERSTANDING THE COMPLEXITIES OF ACCESSING THOSE RESOURCES IN CENTRAL OFFICE AND NAVIGATING THOSE SPACES, IT CAN BE TWO AND THREE TIMES AS HARD.

>> Neisloss: WE LOOKED AT THE NUMBERS THAT SHOW THE DISPROPORTIONATE NUMBERS OF BLACK STUDENTS, LATINO STUDENTS, MALE STUDENTS.

ARE THERE SOLUTIONS, RUBY, THAT CAN BE FOUND TO FOCUS ON THESE MALE STUDENTS, TO BETTER IDENTIFY WHAT IS POSSIBLY A SUPPORT THAT COULD BE DONE IN A CLASSROOM, VERSUS REMOVING THEM FROM A CLASSROOM.

WOULD HAVING MORE TEACHERS OF COLOR, MORE MALE TEACHERS OF COLOR, BE A HELP?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I THINK THE GARITY ORDER CALLS FOR -- WHICH HAS NEVER BEEN MET BY THE CITY OF BOSTON, CALLS FOR 25% OF BLACK TEACHERS.

I THINK THERE IS NOT JUST A MATTER OF HIRING BLACK TEACHERS, BUT REALLY RETAINING THEM, MAKING SURE THEY HAVE THE SUPPORTS THAT THEY NEED.

I WOULD ALSO SAY THAT WE REALLY PUSHED HARD FOR FUNDS TO BE PUT INTO HIRE MORE READING SPECIALISTS.

A LOT OF TIMES BLACK STUDENTS AND LATINO STUDENTS WILL HAVE, YOU KNOW, READING NEEDS.

>> Neisloss: OKAY.

>> AND THOSE AREN'T NECESSARILY BEING ASSESSED.

>> Neisloss: THANK YOU, RUBY, UNFORTUNATELY WE HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE.

RUBY, AND MICHAEL, THANK YOU BOTH VERY MUCH.

>> THANK YOU, AND HAVE A GREAT DAY.

>> Neisloss: THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT.

WE'LL BE BACK TOMORROW WITH SENATOR ELIZABETH WARREN, ON HOW SHE WILL DEAL WITH G.O.P.

THREATS ON THE DEBT LIMIT, STUDENT LOAN FORGIVENESS, CRYPTO REGULATION, AND HER FUTURE POLITICAL PLANS.

THAT AND MORE, TOMORROW AT 7:00.

THANKS FOR WATCHING.

GOOD NIGHT.

Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org