>> Announcer: DONNYBROOK IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE MEMBERS OF NINE NETWORK.

>> WELL, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US FOR THIS EDITION OF DONNYBROOK ON 1/21/21, WHICH HAPPENS TO BE A PALINDROME AND BEFORE THIS HOUR IS OVER, WE'RE GOING TO TALK TO AN EXPERT ON VACCINATIONS, MICHAEL KINCH OF THE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY OF ST. LOUIS CENTER FOR DRUG DISCOVERY AND OTHER AREAS.

BUT FIRST, LET'S MEET THE PANELISTS ON THIS WEEK'S PROGRAM, STARTING WITH THE NEWS DIRECTOR FOR THE BIG 550 KTRS AND COHOST OF THE JENNIFER AND WENDY SHOW, WENDY WIESE.

ALONG WITH ONE OF OUR FOUNDERS WHO WAS THERE IN THE EARLY DAYS, 1987, BILL McCLELLAN, FROM THE ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH.

ALONG WITH ANOTHER FOUNDER FROM THE RIVERFRONT TIMES, RAW STORY.COM AND THE BIG 550, MR. RAY HARTMANN.

AND FROM 590 AM, 97.1 FM NEWS TALK, THE DAVE GLOVER SHOW AND THE ST. LOUIS AMERICAN, MR. ALVIN REID.

WELL, WENDY, WE'RE GOING TO START WITH YOU BECAUSE WE CAN'T GO A SHOW WITHOUT TALKING ABOUT HEALTH AND CORONAVIRUS AND OTHER MATTERS.

IN JEFFERSON CITY, REPUBLICANS ARE FLOATING IDEAS WHERE THEY WOULD TAKE SOME OF THE HEALTH DEPARTMENT POWER FROM COUNTIES AND MOVE IT TO JEFFERSON CITY.

FOR EXAMPLE, THERE'S ONE MEASURE THAT WOULD SAY THAT COUNTIES COULD NOT CLOSE HOUSES OF WORSHIP.

THERE'S ANOTHER ONE THAT SAYS THAT DURING A PANDEMIC, A BUSINESS CANNOT BE CLOSED FOR MORE THAN 30 DAYS, AND THEN AFTER 30 DAYS, A LOCAL BOARD HAS TO TAKE A LOOK AT IT.

IF WE'RE LIVING IN NON-PANDEMIC TIMES, OTHER LEGISLATION SAYS COUNTIES CAN ONLY CLOSE BUSINESSES FOR SEVEN DAYS AND THN IT HAS TO BE APPROVED BY SOME LOCAL BOARD.

BUT THE KEY IS THAT THAT LOCAL CONTROL OF HEALTH WOULD MOVE FROM COUNTIES INTO THE STATE TO JEFFERSON CITY.

WHAT DO YOU SAY?

>> WELL, WHAT MAKES IT SO INTERESTING IS THESE REPUBLICAN LEGISLATORS ARE NOW IN DIRECT OPPOSITION TO OUR REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR BECAUSE HE'S THE ONE THAT HAS BEEN BEHIND THE DECENTRALIZED APPROACH SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THE PANDEMIC.

I CAN CERTAINLY SEE WHERE THEY ARE COMING FROM AND I DON'T SAY THAT VERY OFTEN ABOUT THE MISSOURI LEGISLATURE, BUT THERE ARE COUNTLESS BUSINESSES THAT YOU CAN'T EVEN GIVE A NUMBER BECAUSE THE NUMBER KEEPS EXPANDING BY THE HOUR, THAT HAVE GONE UNDER AND THEY DON'T FEEL AS IF THEY HAVE HAD A VOICE.

AND AS OUR TWO GUESTS SEVERAL WEEKS AGO FROM THE COUNTY EXPLAINED, YOU KNOW, THE CITY BORDERS ON A COUPLE OF THOSE BUSINESSES AND IF THE CITY DOESN'T HAVE THE SAME RESTRICTIONS AND THE COUNTY BUSINESSES ARE COMPLETELY GOING -- THEY'RE GOING TO FLOUNDER AND THEY'RE GOING TO GO UNDER.

SO I UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY'RE DOING, AND FRANKLY, FOR THE FIRST TIME IN A LONG TIME, I APPLAUD THEM.

THESE PEOPLE ARE HURTING IN A SERIOUS WAY AND THEY WANT TO HAVE THEIR VOICES HEARD SOMEWHERE BY SOMEONE.

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, PHILOSOPHICALLY IT MAKES SENSE TO HAVE THE STATE IN CHARGE OF STUFF.

JUST LIKE THERE SHOULD HAVE BEEN A FEDERAL RESPONSE TO THE WHOLE VIRUS, BUT UNFORTUNATELY, WENDY, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT JEFFERSON CITY AND THE PEOPLE IN JEFFERSON CITY DO NOT MAKE GOOD DECISIONS, ALMOST EVER.

AND ALL THEY'RE GOING TO DO IS JUST SAY WE'RE GOING TO OPEN UP THE STATE, AND IN A PANDEMIC, THAT'S NOT THE SMART THING TO DO, I'M AFRAID.

SO I'M AGAINST THE IDEA OF GIVING JEFFERSON CITY ANY POWER.

>> I'M AGREEING -- GO AHEAD, ALVIN.

>> I WAS GOING TO SAY, I'LL TAKE IT A STEP FARTHER THAN THAT.

THIS IS UNDER THE GUISE OF I FEEL SORRY FOR BUSINESSES GOING UNDER OR HAVING TROUBLES AND ALL THAT.

THIS IS FROM, WHAT, BOB PONDER AND ANDREW KOENIG, THIS IS I'M NEVER GOING TO WEAR A MASK, I GOT TO PROTECT MY FREEDOMS, I DON'T HAVE ANYTHING NEGATIVE TO SAY ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO STORMED THE CAPITOL WHICH THIS FLAG BEHIND ME FLEW OVER IN 1987.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT ANYTHING OTHER THAN JUST A WHACK-OUT VIEW OF THE WORLD RIGHT NOW.

SO BILL, YOU'RE RIGHT.

YOU KNOW, THEY HAVE THE VOTES AND OTHERS MIGHT ACTUALLY FEEL THIS WAY, BUT THIS IS DRIVEN BY PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOTHING BUT THEIR OWN SALVATION.

>> RAY HARTMANN, ISN'T THIS REALLY A QUESTION OF WHO THE STATE LAWMAKERS OR THE COUNTY HEALTH DIRECTORS SHOULD HAVE THE SAY OVER COUNTY HEALTH?

>> FIRST OF ALL, LET'S BE CLEAR ABOUT THIS.

ALL REPUBLICANS SHOULD RETIRE THE PHRASE "WE BELIEVE IN SMALLER GOVERNMENT CLOSER TO HOME," BECAUSE ON THIS, AS WITH GUNS, AS WITH KIM GARDNER, THEY FAVOR GOVERNMENT CLOSE TO HOME UNLESS THEY DISAGREE WITH THAT GOVERNMENT.

AND IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, WHILE I DO THINK THE STATE SHOULD HAVE SOME BASELINE GUIDANCE SUCH AS SIMPLE THINGS LIKE MASK POLICY AND INDOOR SPACES, THE DECISION MAKING THAT NEEDS TO BE DONE IN A COUNTY LIKE ST. LOUIS IS VERY DIFFERENT THAN IN CAPE GIRARDEAU OR ST. JOSEPH OR WHEREVER IT IS, AND THERE IS FOR ONE SIGHT FITS ALL.

I MAY NOT -- ONE SIZE FITS ALL.

I MAY NOT BE SAM PAGE'S BIGGEST SUPPORTER, BUT I THINK THE HEALTH DEPARTMENT, THE CITY HEALTH DEPARTMENT, COUNTY HEALTH DEPARTMENT ARE ALL DOING THEIR BEST WITH VERY SPECIFIC INFORMATION -- >> IT TOOK ST. LOUIS COUNTY A VERY LONG TIME TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO DO THE RIGHT THING, RAY.

>> BUT YOU THINK THESE POLITICIANS -- TO BILL'S POINT, YOU THINK THESE POLITICIANS IN JEFF CITY KNOW BETTER WHAT'S RIGHT FOR THE HEALTH OF ST. LOUIS COUNTY THAN THE COUNTY HEALTH DEPARTMENT?

NO.

>> YOU GOT TO EXPLAIN THERE TO ME, MR. HARTMANN.

LAST SUMMER, YOU WENT ON AND ON HOW GOVERNOR MIKE PARSON OUGHT TO HAVE A STATEWIDE MANDATE -- >> I JUST SAID IT AGAIN.

>> -- AND NOW YOU WANT THE COUNTIES TO HAVE THAT POWER, NOT JEFFERSON CITY.

>> HAVING A BASE LINE -- I SAID IT TONIGHT.

HAVING A BASELINE SIMPLE PUBLIC HEALTH THING THAT'S TRUE EVERYWHERE, WHICH IS A MASK MANDATE, IS VERY DIFFERENT THAN MICRO MANAGING DECISIONS ABOUT RESTAURANTS IN ANY PARTICULAR COUNTY.

WE ALL FEEL BAD FOR THE RESTAURANTS, THAT'S NOT THE POINT, BUT YOU CAN'T -- YOU'VE GOT TO LOOK AT EACH COUNTY, EACH CITY SEPARATELY AND THAT'S WHAT THEIR HEALTH DEPARTMENTS ARE TRYING TO DO.

YES -- >> LET ME ASK -- IT'S A QUESTION OF COMPETENCE.

YOU CAN'T MAKE IT AN IDEOLOGICAL THING JUST BECAUSE THE STATES SHOULD HAVE AUTHORITY TO MAKE THESE DECISIONS, BUT OUR STATE JUST DOES NOT HAVE THE BRAINPOWER TO DO IT.

I MEAN, IT'S VERY -- >> GUYS, WHATEVER -- SOME DAY DEMOCRATS WILL TAKE CONTROL OF THE CAPITOL AGAIN, THE GOVERNOR AND LEGISLATURE.

I DON'T KNOW WHEN, BUT IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN SOME DAY, 20, 30 YEARS, WHO KNOWS WHEN.

THE LAWS YOU DECIDE NOW ARE GOING TO FIT -- ARE GOING TO BE APPLIED FOR THAT GROUP TOO.

SO THEN YOU'LL BE SAYING, WELL, NO, NOW I THINK THE CITY SHOULD HAVE THE DECISION -- OR YOU'LL SAY JEFFERSON CITY SHOULD HAVE THE DECISION AND NOT FRANKLIN COUNTY OR ST. CHARLES COUNTY.

>> NO, I WON'T.

I MEAN, I THINK THAT THIS TREND THAT THE REPUBLICANS HAVE DECIDED TO IMPOSE UPON PEOPLE, THAT THEY KNOW BETTER -- AND REALLY, IT'S MOSTLY ABOUT THE CITY AND COUNTY.

THERE'S VERY FEW OTHER PLACES WHERE THE REPUBLICANS WANT TO JUMP IN AND GOVERN PEOPLE OTHER THAN LIKE WITH GUNS AND LIKE THIS ON -- IN THE CITY AND COUNTY.

AND IT REALLY NEEDS TO STOP.

AND I -- >> OKAY.

RAY, WHILE I HAVE YOUR ATTENTION T -- I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT -- HERE WOE GO.

SENATOR JOSH HAWLEY.

A COUPLE OF THINGS.

YOU HAVE INFORMATION THAT SEVERAL OF HIS COLLEAGUES WANT TO CENSURE OR EXPEL HIM.

MEANWHILE, HE HAS SAYS HE DOESN'T WANT TO FAST TRACK THE NOMINATION OF ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS, THE NOMINEE FOR THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY CABINET MEMBER.

HAWLEY SAYS I WANT TO ASK QUESTIONS ABOUT THIS GENTLEMAN.

DON'T YOU THINK AS A SENATOR, HE HAS THE RIGHT TO ASK QUESTIONS OF THE PRESIDENT'S CABINET NOMINEE?

>> HOPEFULLY I WON'T BE A SENATOR MUCH LONGER.

I RIGHT NOW, I GUESS THERE'S NO HOMELAND SECURITY SECURITY ISSUE RIGHT NOW IN THE COUNTRY WITH ALL THE DOMESTIC TERRORISM WHERE WE JUST HAD 25,000 TROOPS IN WASHINGTON, D.C., FOR THE INAUGURATION.

WHICH BY THE WAY, ROY BLUNT, SHOUTOUT TO HIM, HE DID A GREAT JOB, AS MUCH AS I THINK THAT SHOULD BE SAID AND HE'S SUCH A CONTRAST TO HAWLEY.

SEVEN DEMOCRATIC SENATORS, SHERROD BROWN AND OTHERS HAVE ASKED FOR AND WILL HAVE SOME PROCEEDING, I SUSPECT, WITH DEMOCRATS CONTROLLING THE SENATE, AS TO WHETHER HAWLEY AND CRUZ SHOULD BE CENSURED OR EXPELLED.

I THINK JOSH HAWLEY HAS A MUCH BIGGER CHANCE OF GETTING EXPELLED OR CENSURED BECAUSE NOT ONLY HE DID -- >> WELL, MAYBE -- >> BUT HE DID IT AN OF THE THE RIOT AND HE TRIED TO FUNDRAISE OFF IT WHILE HE WAS DOING IT.

I JUST FEEL -- >> I THINK WE WENT OVER THAT A COUPLE WEEK AGO, BUT THE QUESTION THIS WEEK IS THAT CABINET NOMINEE -- >> OF COURSE, HE'S -- WHAT DOES HE THINK HE'S DOING IN THE MIDDLE OF A CRISIS?

>> BUT REMEMBER, THEY STOPPED THE NOMINATION OF JOHN POWER CLOSER TO HOME, ANDY -- >> CHARLIE, THIS IS -- >> AND BECAUSE OF POLITICAL INFLUENCE, HE DIDN'T GET IT.

REMEMBER WHEN KITTY RADCLIFFE'S BROTHER JOHN RADCLIFFE WAS UP FOR A POSITION AND SENATOR RICHARD BURR SAID WE'RE NOT GOING TO GIVE HIM THE VOTE.

>> CHARLIE, THIS IS HOMELAND SECURITY IN THE MIDDLE OF A HOMELAND SECURITY CRISIS AND HE'S NOT GOING TO WIN AND HAVE A LOT OF SUPPORT ON HIS SIDE WHEN HE TRIES TO HOLD THIS UP.

>> DOUBLING DOWN ON THE FACT THAT HE'S OUT FRONT AS, YOU KNOW, THE FIGURE OF THE RESISTANCE.

>> I AGREE.

I AGREE WITH BILL 100%.

AND WHAT'S THE GENTLEMAN'S NAME AGAIN, CHARLIE?

>> ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS.

>> CASE CLOSED.

>> OH, I DON'T THINK SO.

>> OH, I DO.

>> THAT'S WHAT THE -- >> I'M GOING TO BE THE FRONT, I'M GOING TO BE THE HATER.

ALL THE HATERS ARE BACKING OFF, BUT HAWLEY IS DOUBLING DOWN ON THE HATE.

OKAY, THAT'S COOL.

>> YOU'RE ACTING AS IF THIS IS NEW BEHAVIOR.

SENATORS ALL THE TIME OPPOSE NOMINEES OR THEY -- >> NOT DURING A CRISIS.

>> NOT IF YOU JUST RAISED YOUR FIST IN FRONT OF A CROWD THAT MOMENTS LATER ASSAULTED THE CAPITOL.

THAT'S WHERE HE FORGETS THE OPTICS.

HE NEEDS TO HIT THE RESET BUTTON.

IF I WERE IN HIS CIRCLE, I WOULD PLEAD WITH HIM WITH EVERYTHING IN ME TO HIT THE RESET BUTTON, JOSH, AND JUST SIT ON YOUR HANDS FOR JUST A LITTLE WHILE AND LET THINGS COOL DOWN.

BUT THAT'S -- EVERYTHING THAT FLY COLLEAGUES ARE SAYING IS ABSOLUTELY CORRECT.

HE HAS MADE HIS DECISION.

THIS IS HIS POLITICAL FUTURE AND HE'S GOING TO GO ALL THE WAY WITH IT.

>> AND YOU JUST CAN'T GIVE HIM A LOT OF CREDIT, CHARLIE, ABOUT THE -- YOU KNOW, THAT THERE'S SOMETHING DEEPER IN IT THAN THIS.

I MEAN, WE KNOW WHO JOSH HAWLEY IS.

>> WELL, I GOT -- I UNDERSTAND YOUR CONCERN ABOUT THE SENATOR, BUT WHAT HE'S RAISING ABOUT THE NOMINEE IS THAT THE NOMINEE, ACCORDING TO THE INSPECTOR GENERAL, APPROVED A COUPLE OF VISAS FOR VIPs BECAUSE OF POLITICAL PRESSURE, AND SO HAWLEY WANTS TO ASK HIM THOSE QUESTIONS.

IT'S PART OF THE ADVISE AND CONSENT ROW OF THE SENATE WHICH I GUESS YOU GUYS DON'T BELIEVE IN ANYMORE UNLESS IT'S USED AGAINST ANDY PUSNER.

>> BUT EVERYBODY HAS THEIR REASONS AND LAST I LOOKED, HOW WAS THE FORMER PRESIDENT'S WIFE IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AND HE DIDN'T HAVE QUESTIONS ABOUT THAT, DID HE?

THIS IS JUST JOSH HAWLEY PLAYING JOSH HAWLEY GAMES AND IT'S DESTRUCTIVE TO AMERICA AND THE REASONS THAT HE'S DOING IT IS, LIKE BILL SAID, TO DOUBLE DOWN ON "I'M THE MAN FOR THE HATE-FILLED CROWD," IT'S DISGUSTING, BUT, YOU KNOW.

>> BILL McCLELLAN, CLOSER TO HOME, THERE WAS A MEASURE PASSED BY THE BOARD OF ALDERMEN, SIGNED BY THE MAYOR, THAT WAS TO INSTITUTE A PLAN TO CLOSE DOWN THE CITY'S MEDIUM SECURITY INSTITUTION KNOWN AS THE WORK LOU HOUSE.

WELL, AS IT TURNS OUT, IF WE TAKE WHATEVER PRISONERS, OR INMATES, I SHOULD SAY, AND MOVE THEM FROM THE WORKHOUSE TO THE CITY JAIL IN DOWNTOWN ST. LOUIS, THE CITY JAIL WILL BE OVERCROWDED AND INMATES WILL BE SLEEPING ON MATTRESSES ON THE FLOOR.

THERE ACCORDING TO THE CORRECTIONS DIRECTOR IN THE CITY.

THE MAYOR HAS LOOKED AT ALTERNATIVES AND CAN'T FIND ANY OTHER CORRECTIONAL FACILITIES IN THE STATE OF MISSOURI WILLING TO TAKE THESE MEN AND MAYBE WOMEN, AND SO THEY HAVE FOUND A LOCATION FOUR AND A HALF HOURS AWAY ON THE KENTUCKY-TENNESSEE BORDER.

NOW MAYOR KREWSON SAYS NO, WE CAN'T CLOSE THE WORKHOUSE NOW, EVEN THOUGH SHE SIGN THE MEASURE APPROVING THAT.

WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THIS?

IF.

>> WELL, GOOD ON MAYOR KREWSON.

GOOD ON ANYBODY WHO REALIZES THEY MADE A MISTAKE AND SAYS, YOU KNOW, I WAS WRONG.

AND I THOUGHT SHE WAS WRONG EARLY ON.

I MEAN, THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN CLOSE THE WORKHOUSE IS BY LETTING PEOPLE OUT, AND, YOU KNOW, ONCE THEY STARTED LOOKING AT WHO'S IN THE WORKHOUSE AND REALIZED THERE'S NOT A LOT OF YOUNG GUYS WHO WERE BUSTED WITH A COUPLE OF JOINTS AND THEY'RE SITTING IN THE WORKHOUSE.

THAT THESE ARE PRETTY DANGEROUS PEOPLE IN THERE, THEN YOU -- SO I THINK THAT IT'S -- YOU CAN'T CLOSE THE WORKHOUSE RIGHT NOW AND I THINK THAT THE MAYOR HAS COME TO A GOOD REALIZATION AND GOOD FOR HER FOR BEING ABLE TO CHANGE HER MIND.

A LOT OF POLITICIANS REFUSE TO DO THAT.

>> WELL, THE OTHER SIDE OF THAT COIN IS SHE COULD HAVE DONE A LITTLE MORE DUE DILIGENCE OR HER STAFF COULD HAVE TO FIND OUT IF THERE WERE ALTERNATIVES TO THE ST. LOUIS CITY JAIL IN DOWNTOWN ST. LOUIS WHEN SHE SIGNED THE MEASURE.

THE LAW SAYS, THE ORDINANCE SAYS THEY HAVE TO START PLANNING TO CLOSE THE FACILITY.

I MEAN, THAT IS DONE.

NOW IT'S GOING TO THE VOTERS, I THINK, AGAIN ON APRIL THE 6th SO THEY CAN KIND OF REVERSE THINGS.

ACTUALLY, THAT'S GOING TO BE NONBINDING.

THAT'S A RESOLUTION, CORRECT?

>> YES.

>> CHARLIE, I THINK -- FIRST OF ALL, I DON'T DISAGREE AT ALL WITH BIG ABOUT -- I DON'T THINK THERE'S AN ISSUE WITH WHAT SHE CHANGED HER MIND.

>> THAT'S TRUE.

>> I THINK SUBSTANTIVELY, THERE'S REALLY OVERWHELMING OPINION IN THE CITY THAT IT IS NO LONGER SUSTAINABLE AND WHATEVER THE SHORT-TERM PAIN IS, WHICH I'M THINKING COULD BE SIGNIFICANT, THE CITY CANNOT CONTINUE TO HAVE WHAT'S ARGUABLY THE WORST JAIL IN THE STATE OF MISSOURI, WHICH IS SAYING SOMETHING.

AND I THINK IT HAS TO CLOSE, AND SO I'M NOT SUGGESTING IT WILL -- THAT THEY'VE GOT AN IDEAL SITUATION AND I CERTAINLY DON'T BLAME LYDA KREWSON FOR CHANGING HER MIND, BUT I THINK SUBSTANTIVELY, THERE'S A GREAT SENSE OF UNITY AMONG MOST PEOPLE IN THE CITY THAT THIS THING HAS TO CLOSE.

>> WELL, I GOT TO TELL YOU SOMETHING.

MUCH OF THE EFFORT TO CLOSE IT IS LED BY COLUMNIST TONY MESSENGER AND I'VE BEEN TOLD -- >> HE'S RIGHT.

>> -- BY THE CITY THAT HE'S NEVER TOURED IT.

I DID TOUR IT A YEAR AGO IN NOVEMBER AND IF THERE WERE PROBLEMS, I DIDN'T SEE IT.

MAYBE I'M NOT THE BEST JAIL INSPECTOR, BUT I KNOW THAT BEN AND JERRY, THE ICE CREAM EXPERTS, ARE BUYING ADVERTISING, FULL-PAGE ADS IN THE POST-DISPATCH TO CLOSE IT, AND I TALKED TO CORRECTIONS OFFICIALS.

BEN HASN'T BEEN THERE, JERRY HASN'T BEEN THERE, AND I THINK PEOPLE SHOULD TOUR IT BECAUSE WHEN I WAS THERE, I GOT A TOUR WITH JUDGE JIMMIE EDWARDS, PUBLIC SAFETY DIRECTOR, AND THIS WAS PRE-COVID, YOU KNOW, AND THE INMATES WERE HUGGING HIM, HIGH-FIVE, ELBOW BUMPS.

THEY WERE AS FRIENDLY WITH HIM AS YOU COULD IMAGINE.

I THINK THAT'S BECAUSE THEY KNEW HIM WHEN HE WAS A JUDGE.

AND IF THERE WERE PROBLEMS, THEY WEREN'T YELLING ABOUT IT.

I DIDN'T SEE THE MOLD THAT WAS DESCRIBED, I DIDN'T SEE THE -- >> WELL, HEY, BELIEVE ME, CHARLIE, CHARLIE -- >> STONY NECESSARY SENG GER -- >> HE LOOKS INTO STUFF PRETTY DARN WELL AND I DON'T KNOW IF HE HAD PERSONALLY BEEN THERE OR NOT.

YOU SAY HE HASN'T, I DON'T KNOW.

>> IF HE HAS SINCE THEN, I'LL STAND CORRECTED.

>> HE LOOKS INTO THINGS PRETTY WELL.

>> I'M NOT SAYING HE'S LAZY.

FAR FROM IT.

>> LAZY?

HE WON A PULITZER PRIZE ON STUFF LIKE THIS, AND HE IS -- >> NOT ON THIS STORY, NOT ON THIS STORY.

>> I KNOW, BUT THE POINT IS HE DID NOT HAVE TO HAVE A GUIDE PRISON TOUR, WHICH IS MOST OF THE TIME WHEN THEY GIVE YOU PRISON TOURS, YOU DON'T GET TO SEE EVERYTHING -- >> COSMETIC.

>> AND SO I THINK TONY -- >> I DON'T KNOW.

>> I SUPPORT TONY ON THIS, LENS PUT IT THAT WAY.

>> WAIT A MINUTE, LET'S -- >> TAKE A TOUR, TAKE A TOUR.

>> WAIT.

LET'S TAKE TONY OUT OF IT.

YOU MEAN TO TELL ME THAT AUTHORITATIVE FIGURES CAME TO A PRISON, A JAIL, WHEREVER, AND, YOU KNOW, THEY SAID HOW IS IT AND THEY'RE ALL HIGH-FIEF HHIGH-FIVING AND WHAT NOT?

IT'S PRISON.

JIMMIE EDWARDS LEFT, TONY MESSENGER LEFT AND WHAT ARE THEY LEFT WITH?

A WHOOPING.

PLEASE, DON'T YOU WATCH PRISON MOVIES, MAN?

>> ALVIN, THIS I WANT "IN THE HEAT OF THE NIGHT."

I DON'T REALLY THINK THAT PRISONERS HAVE TO ENDURE THE SAME KINDS OF TREATMENT THAT THEY ENDURED IN THE '50s OR THE '40s -- >> WAIT A MINUTE -- >> NO, NO.

>> WAIT, HOLD IT.

AT THE WORKHOUSE, THEY WERE LIKE THE GUARDS WERE HAVING FRIDAY NIGHT FIGHTS CARRYING ON.

AND OTHER INMATES STANDING AROUND CHEERING.

AND CHARLIE, I DIDN'T GO -- >> THAT WAS TEN YEARS AGO, ALVIN.

>> THAT WAS A WHILE AGO.

>> I DIDN'T GO TO ALCATRAZ UNTIL LONG AFTER IT WAS CLOSED.

I DIDN'T HAVE TO GO TO ALCATRAZ TO KNOW THAT, OH, THIS PLACE IS HELLISH.

>> OKAY, OKAY, I DID GO TO ALCATRAZ ALSO AND IT'S ACTUALLY QUITE DAMP AND DARK AND YOU WOULDN'T WANT TO BE THERE, BUT THIS PLACE, I DIDN'T SEE THE MOLD, IT DIDN'T SMELL BAD.

IT WAS RECENTLY PAINTED.

THEY HAD A NICE BASKETBALL COURT, THEY HAD A LIBRARY, COMPUTER ROOM.

I CHECKED OUT THE RESTROOMS WHERE THEY SCRUBBED -- >> HOW MANY STARS DID YOU GIVE IT?

>> YEAH, EXACTLY.

>> BY THE WAY, IT'S NOT A PRISON.

IT'S A JAIL.

SO THERE'S A LITTLE BIT OF A DIFFERENCE.

>> WAIT, WAIT.

>> BASICALLY -- >> WE ALL HEARD STORIES ABOUT THE BAD CONDITIONS THERE, CHARLIE.

IT'S HARD TO ARGUE THAT CONDITIONS ARE GOOD, IT'S JUST WHAT ARE WE SUPPOSED TO TOO WITH SOME OF THESE PEOPLE?

>> WELL, I THINK THEY HAVE TO STAY RIGHT THERE AS OPPOSED TO GOING TO THE KENTUCKY BORDER WHERE THEY ARE LAWYER AREN'T GOING TO BE ABLE TO VISIT THEM.

>> I GOT SIDETRACKED, I GOT SIDETRACKED, BUT I AGREE WITH THAT.

SENDING THEM TO THE BORDER OF KENTUCKY AND TENNESSEE IS A BUNCH OF LAWSUITS WAITING TO HAPPEN ON THE CITY OF ST. LOUIS.

I DISAGREE WITH THAT.

YOU'RE SENDING THEM DOWN TO -- YOU KNOW, A, JUST TO STORM THE CAPITOL, BILL, THAT AIN'T GOING TO WORK OUT.

SO THAT'S A BAD IDEA.

>> OKAY, WHILE I GOT OUR, ALVIN -- >> JUST LEAVE THEM IN THE COMFORT INN WHERE THEY ARE.

>> CITIES HAVE DONE THAT.

THEY HAVE DONE THAT WITH ANKLE BRACELETS.

ALVIN REID, ALBERT WATKINS, LOCAL ATTORNEY, REPRESENTS Q-ANON SHAMAN WHO IS SOMETIMES KNOWN AS JACOB ANTHONY ANGELI, THE GUY WITH THE FACE PAINT AND BULL HORNS CAUGHT INSIDE THE U.S. CAPITOL AND HE'S NOW IN ANOTHER STATE AND WATKINS SAYS HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN PARDONED BY THE PRESIDENT BECAUSE THE PRESIDENT GOADED HIM ON TO STORM THE CAPITOL.

MEANWHILE, 21-YEAR-OLD EMILY HERNANDEZ OF SULLIVAN, MISSOURI, DID COOPERATE WITH AUTHORITIES.

SHE WENT IN FRONT OF A JUDGE THIS WEEK AND SHE'S ONE WHO ENTERED THE CAPITOL UNLAWFULLY AND ACTUALLY WAS CAUGHT ON CAMERA CARRYING A PIECE OF A SIGN FROM NANCY PELOSI'S OFFICE.

SO WHAT DO YOU THINK?

SHOULD WE HAVE MERCY ON SHAMAN AND HERNANDEZ, OR WOULD YOU THROW THE BOOK AT THEM?

>> YES, SPEAKING OF ALCATRAZ, WE SHOULD JUST REOPEN IT.

EVERYBODY SHOULD GET THE FULL -- EVERY LAST DAY THAT THEY COULD BE SENTENCED TO.

THEY SHOULD BE SENTENCED TO.

THEY SHOULD NOT BE GENTILE WITH THESE PEOPLE -- GENTLE, NOT AGAIN TILE, EXCUSE ME.

GENTLE WITH THESE PEOPLE.

THEY SHOULD GET THE FULL EXTENT OF THE LAW.

IT'S RIDICULOUS WHAT THEY -- BUT ALSO IT VIOLATED FEDERAL LAW AND SHORT OF TURNING IN THE GUY THAT, YOU KNOW, KILLED THAT CAPITOL POLICE OFFICER, EVERYBODY ELSE SHOULD GET THE FULL DEFINITION OF THE SENTENCE OF THE LAW AND THE JUDGE HAD TO ASK THE LADY FROM SULLIVAN, MISSOURI, TO SPEAK UP AND SHE SAID ILK I'M SORRY, I'M SERVICE -- I WILL, I'M SORRY, I'M NERVOUS AND THE ATTITUDE OF THE JUDGE WAS PERFECT.

SHE SAID, I BET YOU ARE.

HEY, FULL EXTENT.

NO MERCY.

YOU DID IT, PAY THE PRICE.

DON'T DO THE CRIME IF YOU CAN'T DO THE TIME.

>> I AGREE, I -- GO AHEAD, BILL.

GO AHEAD, BILL.

>> I WAS GOING TO SAY, TWO QUICK COMMENTS, ALVIN.

FIRST, THE PEOPLE WHO ARE REALLY GUILTY WERE DONALD TRUMP AND ALL HIS ENABLERS WHO WENT ALONG WITH THIS BIG LIE THEORY THAT THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN AND NOTHING IS GOING TO HAPPEN TO THOSE PEOPLE.

THE ONES IN THE MEDIA, THE ONES IN CONGRESS.

THE SECOND THING IS, THERE WERE TWO KINDS OF PEOPLE WHO WENT ON THE RALLY.

ONE GROUP WAS OUT THERE TO REALLY CAUSE DAMAGE AND, YOU KNOW, THE PROUD BOYS AND THE THREE PERCENTERS.

AND THE OTHERS, I THINK I SAW A WOMAN NAMED MONICA SOMETHING AND SAID THAT SOME OF THESE PEOPLE LOOKED LIKE THEY GOT IN THE WRONG LINE -- MISTAKENLY GOT IN THE LINE FOR INSURRECTION MOUNTAIN AT THE MAGIC KINGDOM.

AND I THINK SOME DID GO THERE BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THEY LIKED GOING TO HIS RALLIES AND IT WAS ALWAYS FUN, A DARK KIND OF FUN, AND THEY WENT TO WASHINGTON, D.C., AND THEY WEREN'T INTENDING -- I MEAN, I DON'T THINK YOU CAN THROW THE BOOK AT EVERYBODY.

THAT'S ALL I'M SAYING.

>> YEAH, I DON'T -- AND I DON'T BUY THAT WHEN THE PEACEFUL PROTESTERS MARCH ON FERGUSON AND BURNED DOWN THE CVS, AND I DON'T BUY IT HERE.

YOU KNOW YOU'VE SEEN ENOUGH TO KNOW THAT THIS KIND OF THING IS POSSIBLE, ESPECIALLY TODAY.

WE'VE SEEN IT TIME AND TIME AGAIN WHEN THE WRONG ELEMENT INFILTRATES THE RIGHT ELEMENT AND CHAOS ENSUES.

AND SO I SAY STAY AWAY FROM THE CHAOS.

THERE ARE A MILLION DIFFERENT WAYS TO EXERCISE YOUR RIGHT TO PEACEFUL PROTEST THAN POSSIBLY GETTING INVOLVED WITH SOMETHING THAT CAN BECOME DEADLY AS THERE DID.

>> I THINK THAT'SA DANGEROUS ROUTE TO GO DOWN.

>> BILL -- TO THAT POINT, THERE IS AN ANALOGY, WHICH IS FEW ONE IS SUGGESTING THAT JUST -- NO ONE IS SUGGESTING THAT JUST BECAUSE YOU ATTENDED THE RALLY AND DIDN'T GO INTO THE CAPITOL THAT YOU SHOULD SOMEHOW BE PROSECUTED FOR WHAT HAPPENED IN THE CAPITOL.

>> BUT IF YOU WENT IN.

>> THAT'S THE ANALOGY TO FERGUSON.

MY POINT IS FOR ONE IS -- NO ONE IS SAYING IF YOU JUST SHOWED UP AND LEFT AND YOU DIDN'T GO NEAR THE CAPITOL, THERE'S NO PROBLEM AND THAT'S SORT OF LIKE THE PEACEFUL PROTESTERS IN YOUR SCENARIO.

I HAD AL WATKINS ON MY SHOW AND HE WAS AS ENTERTAINING AS EVER, AND IT'S A SERIOUS MATTER, BUT I THINK THE QUESTION ISN'T ABOUT MERCY.

THE QUESTION IS IF THE PROSECUTORS THINK THEY CAN BUILD A CASE AGAINST DONALD TRUMP AND THEY THINK IT WILL BE HELPFUL TO HAVE PEOPLE THAT WILL TESTIFY THAT THEY DID WHAT THEY DID BECAUSE OF HIS WORDS TO THEM, THEN MY GUESS IS THOSE FOLKS MIGHT -- AND THAT DOESN'T MEAN THEY'RE GOING TO GET OFF SCOTT FREE, BUT THOSE FOLKS MIGHT GET A DIFFERENT DEAL THAN IF THEY DON'T COOPERATE.

I DON'T THINK THAT'S OUTRAGEOUS.

>> WHOA, WHOA.

RAY, RAY, ARE YOU REALLY ANTICIPATING A TRIAL FOR THE FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES WHERE THAT GUY COMES IN WEARING HIS BULL HORNS AND HE'S ONE OF OUR WITNESSES?

>> I DON'T THINK THAT WILL HAPPEN, THAT WOULD BE THE SCENARIO UNDER WHICH THEY GIVE HIM A DEAL.

>> I'M SORRY, I HAVE TO AGREE WITH ALVIN.

IF YOU'RE WALKING OVER BROKEN GLASS INTO THE U.S. CAPITOL AND THE POLICE ARE SENDING MACE AND TEAR GAS AND YOU'RE WALKING THROUGH THAT GOING INSIDE -- >> YOU DESERVE THE -- >> I'M SORRY, YOU DESERVE SIX TO 12 MONTHS.

>> I AGREE.

AND YOU ALSO -- >> I'M NOT ARGUING THAT.

>> I WOULD SLAP -- IF MY FACE WAS ANYWHERE NEAR WHERE THE POLICE OFFICER WAS KILLED, I'D TELL LIKE YOU'RE FACING CONSPIRACY TO COMMIT MURDER OF A POLICE OFFICER.

>> HEY, ALVIN -- >> IF YOU HAVE -- >> CHARLIE, THEY CAME CLOSE TO KILLING SENATORS AND CONGRESSMEN.

>> I KNOW IT.

>> THEY WERE BEATING ON POLICE OFFICERS AND THROWING STUFF, ABSOLUTELY THROW THE BOOK AT THOSE PEOPLE.

I'M NOT -- GHOON.

>> AND I AGREE WITH ALVIN GENERALLY.

I'M JUST SAYING SOME PEOPLE DEPENDING ON CIRCUMSTANCE MIGHT GET -- >> OKAY, ALVIN, TWO-MINUTE WARNING.

JOHN COLLINS MUHAMMAD IS A MEMBER OF THE BOARD OF ALDERMEN AND NOW HE DOES NOT WANT TO REDUCE THE SIZE OF THE BOARD FROM 28 MEMBERS TO 14, EVEN THOUGH VOTERS IN 2012 APPROVED JUST THAT.

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> GO FROM 28 TO 14, QUIT THE PITY PARTY.

IF YOU WANT TO WIN A SEAT IN THE ALDERMANIC BODY, WIN A SEAT IN THE ALDERMANIC BODY.

>> I LIKE THE IDEA OF SMALL GOVERNMENT.

I'D RATHER HAVE 28, SO PEOPLE GET TO KNOW THEIR ALDERMEN.

IT'S LIKE THE COUNTY COUNCIL.

I'M NOT EVEN SURE WHO MY COUNTY COUNCIL PERSON IS.

>> I LIKE TO FOLLOW THE FOUNDER, FELLOW FOUNDER, BECAUSE I USED TO BE OPPOSED TO THAT.

I ACTUALLY DON'T REALLY CARE WHAT THEY DO BECAUSE I DON'T PAY THAT -- I THINK EITHER WAY IS FINE, BUT I THINK THAT THE IDEA, THEY'RE ALL STILL REPRESENTING ALMOST 11,000 PEOPLE, WHICH IS MORE THAN ANY CITY COUNCIL PERSON ANYWHERE ELSE IN ST. LOUIS, I DON'T THINK THEY HAVE TO HAVE A SMALLER BOARD.

I DON'T SEE WHY -- >> CITY COUNCIL IS LIKE KIRKWOOD, WE PICK HOW MANY PEOPLE WE NEED AND FILL WHAT'S NEEDED.

ST. LOUIS HAS LESS THAN 300,000 PEOPLE AND YOU DON'T NEED 28 PEOPLE TO -- >> YOU'RE REPRESENTED BY PROBABLY -- YOUR COUNCIL PERSON PROBABLY REPRESENTS 5,000 PEOPLE.

EVEN RIGHT NOW -- >> ACTUALLY, ACTUALLY -- >> THEY REPRESENT 11,000.

>> MOST MUNICIPALITIES LIKE KIRKWOOD, WE DON'T HAVE THE WARDS, IT'S NOT BROKEN UP INTO NUMBERS LIKE IT IS IN THE CITY.

>> THAT'S WHY WE THINK LESS IS NOT MORE.

>> BY THE WAY, THE CITY IS MALFUNCTIONING, SO THUS ANYTHING YOU CAN DO TO HELP STOP THAT MALFUNCTION -- >> ALL RIGHT, HOLD THE THOUGHT.

>> GOING FROM 28 TO 14 WILL CUT DOWN THE MALFUNCTION?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

>> LET'S TAKE A BREAK HERE BECAUSE WE HAVE MICHAEL KINCH IN THE WINGS.

HE WANTS TO JOIN US, OR AT LEAST HE IS GOING TO JOIN US, PUT IT THAT WAY, AND WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT VACCINE.

THAT'S ON NEXT UP.

DON'T GO AWAY.

>> Announcer: DONNYBROOK IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE MEMBERS OF THE MEMBERS OF NINE PBS.

>>> WELL, THANKS FOR JOINING US ON NEXT UP.

THIS IS THE PROGRAM WHERE WE GRILL COMMUNITY LEADERS AND ASK THEM QUESTIONS ABOUT THE NEWS THE DAY, AND WE'RE SO FORTUNATE THIS WEEK TO BE JOIN BY MICHAEL KINCH, AN ASSOCIATE VICE CHANCELLOR AT WASH-U, ALSO A PROFESSOR OF BIOCHEMISTRY AND MOLECULAR BIOPHYSICS AT THE SCHOOL WHERE HE'S ALSO THE DIRECTOR OF THE CENTER OF REFERENCE INNOVATION IN BIOTECHNOLOGY AND DRUG DISCOVERY.

BOTH CENTERS AT WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY.

'S THE AUTHOR OF MANY BOOKS, INCLUDING A PRESCRIPTION FOR CHANGE, THE LOOMING CRISIS IN DRUG DEVELOPMENT, AND WE THOUGHT WE'D TALK ABOUT VACCINES AND OTHER ISSUES WITH YOU, DR. KINCH.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US ON NEXT UP.

>> THANKS FOR THE OPPORTUNITY.

>> I KNOW YOU KNOW AS MUCH ABOUT VACCINES AS JUST ABOUT ANYBODY, AND I'D LIKE TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE ROLLOUT FOR YOU DON'T MIND.

TO DATE, THE CDC REPORTS THAT 36 MILLION CASES -- RATHER, 36 MILLION DOSES OF THE VACCINE HAVE BEEN DISTRIBUTED THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY, BUT ONLY ABOUT 16 MILLION HAVE BEEN ADMINISTERED.

AND WE WERE HOPING TO HAVE 20 MILLION ADMINISTERED BY THE END OF DECEMBER.

WHAT DO YOU THINK IS GOING ON RIGHT NOW?

>> WELL, FRANKLY, THERE'S BEEN A LACK OF COORDINATION.

IT'S NOT THAT WE DON'T KNOW WHAT WE NEED TO DO, WHICH IS OBVIOUSLY TO GET THE VACCINE INTO THE ARMS OF PEOPLE ALL AROUND THE COUNTRY.

WE JUST HAVE BEEN VERY POOR IN DEPLOYING IT, AND SO IT REALLY COMES DOWN TO LOGISTICS AND THIS HAS BEEN AN UNCOORDINATED LOGISTICAL MESS SO FAR.

BUT IT'S NOT TOO LATE.

WE CAN STILL TURN THIS AROUND AND, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE TO KEEP IN MIND THAT WE HAVE TO GET 350 MILLION AMERICANS, WHICH MEANS 700 DOSES, ADMINISTERED AS SOON AS WE CAN, AND ONTHEN CAN WE TURN BACK TO NORMAL.

>> FIRST OF ALL, DR. KINCH, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

WE'RE IN THE SECOND DAY OF THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

HE HAS MADE NO SECRET OF THE FACT THAT IT IS NO LONGER -- THERE IS NO LONGER A POLITICAL COMPONENT.

HE'S REALLY HIT THE GROUND RUNNING.

DR. FAUCI WAS AT THE WHITE HOUSE SPEAKING WITH MEMBERS OF THE PRESS.

DO YOU LIKE WHAT YOU'RE SEEING SO FAR IN TERMS OF THE SHIFT IN DIRECTION?

>> YOU KNOW, IT'S STILL EARLY DAYS, BUT YES.

AND WHAT I MEAN BY THE "YES" IS THAT WE NEED TO REALLY FOLLOW THE MEDICINE AND THE SCIENCE AND NOT THE POLITICS.

AND THERE'S BEEN TOO MUCH POLITICS CONTAMINATING THE VACCINE AND EVERYTHING ABOUT THE CORONAVIRUS, AND SO I'M HOPEFUL THAT ACTUALLY WE CAN NOW START TALKING ABOUT WHAT IS BEST FOR PEOPLE, WHAT'S BEST FOR THEIR MEDICAL CONDITIONS, AND HOW ARE THESE DECISIONS GOING TO BE MADE BASED ON GOOD SCIENCE.

>> BILL?

>> YEAH, DOCTOR, I DON'T WANT YOU TO THINK I READ SCIENTIFIC STUFF BECAUSE I DON'T, BUT OUR PRODUCER SENT US SOMETHING YOU WROTE FOR A MAGAZINE CALLED STAT, AND ON JULY 31st, YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT THE RUSH TO GET A VACCINE OUT AND YOU SAID DISASTROUS OUTCOME IS NOT ONLY POSSIBLE, BUT IN FACT QUITE LIKELY.

AND DO YOU THINK WE AVOIDED A DISASTROUS OUTCOME AND HOW DID WE DO IT IF WE DID?

>> SO FAR YES, AND WE'VE ACTUALLY BEEN INCREDIBLY FORTUNATE AND ALL THE BAD LUCK OF 2020 MAYBE HAS TURNED AROUND IN TERMS OF THE VACCINE.

THE CONCERNS I HAD ON RUSHING A VACCINE IS THAT A VACCINE CAUSES A DURABLE, A LONG-TERM CHANGE IN YOUR IMMUNE SYSTEM, AND IF YOU DON'T CHANGE YOUR IMMUNE SYSTEM IN THE RIGHT WAY, YOU CAN ACTUALLY HAVE TOXICITY AND PROBLEMS.

THAT WAS MY FEAR BACK THEN AND IT REMAINS A FEAR THAT ALL OF US HAVE -- WILL HAVE FOREVER.

BUT THE GOOD NEWS IS THAT WE HAVE SEEN REMARKABLY LITTLE TOXICITY.

THERE'S BEEN SOME VERY WELL DETAILED EXAMPLES OF TOXICITY, BUT FOR THE MOST PART, WE'VE BEEN VERY LUCKY THERE AND BEEN EVEN LUCKIER IN TERMS OF BEING ABLE TO HAVE EFFICACY RATES, MEANING PROTECTION RATES OF 95% OR SO.

AND SO I'M HAPPY TO SAY THAT THE WORRIES THAT I EXPRESSED IN JULY AND IN APRIL ARE, THANKFUL LY UNFOUNDED SO FAR.

>> THANK YOU.

>> RAY.

>> DOCTOR, BEING AS HOW I CANNOT PRONOUNCE MOST OF THE WORDS IN YOUR TITLE, I -- A LOT OF THEM IN BILL'S TITLE ALSO.

WHAT DO YOU SAY TO -- THERE ARE PEOPLE RIGHT NOW, LOTS OF THEM IN OUR COMMUNITY AND OTHERS, THAT HAVE FEARS THEMSELVES FOR WHATEVER REASON ABOUT TAKING THE VIRUS -- THE VACCINE.

WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO SAY TO THEM AND WHAT DO YOU THINK WE CAN DO TO SORT OF GET PEOPLE OVER THOSE FEARS ABOUT THE SAFETY OF THE VACCINE?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

WELL, ONE THING IS THAT WE NEED TO RECOGNIZE THIS IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING NEW.

AND ACTUALLY, I WROTE AN ENTIRE BOOK ABOUT THIS THAT CAME OUT, I THINK IN 2017, 2018, WHICH BASICALLY DOCUMENTS THE FACT THAT EVERY SINGLE VACCINE HAS ALWAYS BEEN MET WITH SOME FORM OF AN ANTI-VACCINE MOVEMENT, AND A LOT OF TIMES THAT'S BECAUSE, FRANKLY, PEOPLE ARE AFRAID OF A VACCINE BECAUSE THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND IT.

BUT IT'S COMPLICATED BY THE FACT THAT UNLIKE A MEDICINE, WHICH IS GIVEN TO SOMEONE WHO IS KNOWN TO BE ILL, A VACCINE IS GIVEN TO SOMEONE WHO'S HEALTHY WITH THE PRESUMPTION IT'S GOING TO PREVENT A FUTURE DISEASE.

A LOT OF PEOPLE THINK I'LL NEVER GET THAT DISEASE.

THE WAY IN WHICH WE COMBAT THAT IS TO BE FULLY TRANSPARENT.

WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT THE SAFETY, WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT THE EFFICACY, BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY, WHAT WE DON'T KNOW YET ABOUT THE SAFETY OR THE EFFICACY.

AND I THINK ONLY IN BEING FULLY TRANSPARENT AND TELLING BOTH WHAT WE DO AND DO NOT KNOW ARE WE GOING TO BE ABLE TO CONVINCE PEOPLE THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO DO THIS.

THE DATA SO FAR SUGGESTS THAT IT'S FAR SAFER THAN MOST OF US PREDICTED AND FAR, FAR MORE EFFICACIOUS THAN MOST OF US PREDICTED.

>> ALVIN.

>> FOLLOWING UP ON WHAT BILL SAID ABOUT THE ARTICLE FROM JULY, I'LL BE HONEST WITH YOU.

I'M GONNA GET THE VACCINATION WHEN IT WAS TALKED ABOUT A YEAR AGO OR TEN MONTHS AGO, I WANTED TO BE FIRST IN LINE.

OBVIOUSLY I'M NOT GOING TO BE EVEN THOUGH I AM 60.

BUT, YOU KNOW, BUT YOUR ARTICLE KIND OF, YOU KNOW, FRIGHTENED ME AND IT DIDN'T CHANGE MY MIND AND I KNOW THAT WASN'T YOUR INTENT, BUT NOW WE ARE WHERE WE'RE AT NOW AND AS RAY SAID, YOU'RE STILL GETTING THE PEOPLE WHO ARE, YOU KNOW, HESITANT.

WHAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND IS LIKE, OKAY, PART OF THIS HAS GOT TO BE PUBLIC RELATIONS AND JUST WHAT YOU SAID.

I'M STILL WAITING FOR THE BILLBOARDS AND THE RADIO AND THE TELEVISION COMMERCIALS THAT, YOU KNOW, IN 1960, ONE OUT OF HOW MANY AMERICANS GOT MEASLES OR GOT MUMPS OR IN 1945, ONE OUT OF EVERY AMERICAN, YOU KNOW, GOT POLIO.

I JUST DON'T SEE THE EFFORT TO JUST BREAK IT DOWN TO, LIKE, LISTEN, GET THE VACCINE BECAUSE IN THE PAST, THIS IS WHAT USED TO BE AND THIS IS WHAT IT IS NOW.

ALSO, WHY IS THERE NOT SOMEBODY SAYING, LIKE, HEY, IF WE CAN GET THIS MANY PEOPLE VACCINATED, THAT'S HOW FAST WE CAN GET BACK TO NORMAL.

SO PUT A DATE OUT THERE OR PUT A NUMBER OUT THERE.

MAKE IT -- SIMPLIFY IT.

>> ABSOLUTELY, AND I THINK THAT'S BEEN PART OF THE PROBLEM THAT IS WE SPENT MANY MONTHS SAYING, WELL, THIS IS -- ARE AN ARGUING ABOUT WHETHER COVID-19 WAS A REAL PROBLEM OR NOT AND WHETHER -- I MEAN, STILL WE ARGUE ABOUT MASKS.

YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

WE NEED TO BE CONSISTENT ABOUT OUR MESSAGING AND WE NEED TO POINT OUT TO PEOPLE THAT IF YOU GET VACCINATED, IT WILL NOT ONLY HELP YOU, BUT YOUR NEIGHBORS AND FAMILY MEMBERS BECAUSE IT WILL PREVENT YOU FROM INFECTING THEM.

THERE ARE MANY IN OUR COMMUNITY, THOSE WHO ARE ELDERLY OR WHO HAVE CANCER OR AUTOIMMUNE DISEASES, LIKE THOSE WITH ARTHRITIS, THAT ARE POTENTIALLY GOING TO REMAIN SUSCEPTIBLE TO COVID EVEN AFTER THEY'RE VACCINATED.

WE NEED TO MAINTAIN A CONSISTENT MESSAGE SAYING DO THIS NOT JUST FOR YOURSELF, BUT YOUR COMMUNITY.

IT NEEDS TO BE EVERYBODY PARTICIPATING IN THIS AND WE NEED TO STOP ARGUING ABOUT SOME OF THE SILLY -- AGAIN, WE TALKED ABOUT POLITICS AND SOME OF THE MISCONCEPTIONS ABOUT THE VACCINE AND WE CAN ONLY DO THAT IF WE'RE MAINTAINING ACCURATE INFORMATION AND COMPLETE INFORMATION.

>> CAN I FOLLOW UP REAL QUICK?

ONE OF THE THINGS I HEARD FROM PEOPLE I KNOW IS I DON'T WANT TO GET AN AUTOIMMUNE DISEASE.

THAT'S WHY I'M LEERY OF THE VACCINE.

YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT IS?

>> THE LIKELIHOOD OF YOU'RE GETTING AN AUTOIMMUNE DISEASE FROM THE VACCINE IS VASTLY, THOUSANDS OF TIMES LESS LIKELY THAN YOU'RE GETTING A SERIES DISEASE OR DYING OF COVID-19.

>> OKAY, THANK YOU.

>> IT'S SIMPLE AS THAT.

>> DOCTOR, THE HISTORIAN KEN BURNS WAS ON PR THIS WEEK AND HE SAID IN 1947 IN NEW YORK CITY, EVERY SINGLE PERSON IN NEW YORK CITY, SIX MILLION PEOPLE, WAS VACCINATED WITHIN ONE MONTH.

SIX MILLION DOSES ADMINISTERED IN ONE MONTH IN ONE CITY.

WHY CAN'T WE DO SOMETHING LIKE THAT NOW?

WHAT'S THE PROBLEM IN 2021?

>> WELL, FRANKLY -- AND I TALK ABOUT THIS IN THE BOOK ON VACCINES AND THE ANTI-VACCINE MOVEMENT.

WE HAVE BASICALLY, WHETHER IT'S DUE TO THE INTERNET, I'M NOT SURE WHAT IT IS, BUT THERE WAS A BOOK THAT CAME OUT CALLED "THE DEATH OF EXPERTISE," AND WE AS A POPULATION HAVE BASICALLY DECIDED THAT EVERY INDIVIDUAL IS SMARTER THAN ALL THE EXPERTS AND THAT VACCINES ARE SOMETHING THAT WE SHOULD AVOID.

AND SO BACK IN 1947 WHEN THERE WAS A SMALLPOX RISK, WHICH IS WHAT YOU'RE REFERRING TO, THERE WERE MANDATES AND THE GOVERNMENT SAID AND CONVEYED VERY ACCURATELY AND CONSISTENTLY, HELP YOURSELF AND YOUR NEIGHBOR, PLEASE GET VACCINATED BECAUSE WE DON'T WANT SMALLPOX TURNED LOOSE IN NEW YORK CITY AGAIN.

PLUS, THEY MANDATED IT.

YOUR KIDS COULDN'T GO TO SCHOOL.

WHEN I WAS A CHILD, I COULDN'T GO TO SCHOOL UNLESS I HAD MY MEASLES, MUMPS AND RUBELLA AND MY DIPHTHERIA AND TETANUS.

WE HAVE, ESPECIALLY OVER THE LAST 20 OR 30 YEARS, SEEN THE RISE OF THE MOVEMENTS SAYING, WELL, MAYBE I DON'T WANT TO HAVE MY KIDS AND I OBJECT TO IT FOR RELIGIOUS REASONS AND PERSONAL REASONS AND THOSE HAVE BEEN ACCEPTED AND WE'VE ALLOWED THAT TO OCCUR, AND FRANKLY, MY IMPRESSION IS AT LEAST, THE REASON WE'VE ALLOWED THAT TO OCCUR IS PRIOR TO 2020, WE HAD FORGOTTEN ABOUT THE DAMAGE THAT INFECTIOUS DISEASES CAN CAUSE AND MAYBE ONE GOOD THING THAT MIGHT COME OUT OF COVID-19 IS A RECOGNITION THAT ALL OF THESE DISEASES ARE STILL OUT THERE AND THE ONLY WAY WE CAN PREVENT THEM IS THROUGH VACCINATION.

>> EARLIER THIS WEEK, I BELIEVE, IT COULD HAVE BEEN LATE LAST WEEK, THERE WAS THE ASSERTION ON THE PART OF THE HEAD OF MODERNA THAT THIS WAS GOING TO BE WITH US FOREVER.

THAT IT HAD -- IT WOULD BECOME ENDEMIC RATHER THAN PANDEMIC.

CAN YOU SPEAK TO WHAT THAT MEANS, DR. KINCH?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

WE BASICALLY ARE FIGHTING A MOVING ENEMY AND WHAT I MEAN BY THAT IS THAT VIRUSES REALLY LIKE TO MUTATE.

AND EVENTUALLY, WE WILL REACH A POINT WHERE THIS VIRUS WILL MUTATE TO THE POINT WHERE THE CURRENT VACCINE WILL PROBABLY NOT BE USEFUL.

AND SO WE'RE GOING TO NEED A NEXT VACCINE, A NEXT GENERATION, IF YOU WILL, VACCINE.

SIMILAR, BUT A BIT DIFFERENT FROM WHAT HAPPENS WITH INFLUENZA EVERY YEAR.

SO THE OTHER PART OF THIS IS THAT THE VIRUS CAN ALSO LIVE IN ANIMALS, NOT JUST IN PEOPLE.

SO EVEN IF WE GET RID OF THE VIRUS FROM ALL PEOPLE, IT COULD STILL COME BACK INTO THE HUMAN POPULATION FROM OUR ANIMAL COMPANIONS.

AND SO AS A CONSEQUENCE OF THAT, WE NEED TO ACCEPT THE FACT THAT JUST LIKE MEASLES, MUMPS, RUBELLA, AND ALL THE OTHER VIRUSES AND BACTERIA THAT WE'RE FAMILIAR WITH, THIS IS GOING TO BE SOMETHING THAT FUTURE GENERATIONS ARE GOING TO HAVE TO DEAL WITH.

AND A PANDEMIC WILL EVENTUALLY END.

AN ENDEMIC JUST STAYS IN THE POPULATION AND KEEPS CIRCULATING, AND WE'RE LOOKING AT AN ENDEMIC SITUATION.

AND THAT MAKES IT CRUCIAL TO BECOME VACCINATED.

SO I'M GOING -- I'LL TAKE A MINUTE AND KIND OF BORE YOU WITH SOME SCIENCE.

THE MORE VIRUS IS OUT THERE, THE MORE CHANCE THAT IT CAN MUTATE.

THE MORE CHANCE IT CAN MUTATE, THE MORE LIKELY THAT THE VACCINE WILL FAIL.

THE FLIP SIDE OF THAT IS IF WE GET EVERYONE VACCINATED AND EVERYONE WEARS MASKS FOR THE NEXT FEW MONTHS AND WE GET AHEAD OF THE VIRUS, THERE WILL BE LESS VIRUS OUT THERE AND THEREFORE LESS MUTATION AND LESS LIKELIHOOD THAT IT'S GOING TO BE ABLE TO ESCAPE THE VACCINE.

SO THE FASTER AND MORE EFFICIENTLY WE ACT, THE BETTER THE OUTCOME.

>> DOCTOR, YOU THREW ME FOR A LOOP A MINUTE AGO WHEN YOU SAID THAT THIS MIGHT, FOR ELDERLY PEOPLE AND THOSE WITH CANCER, THIS MIGHT NOT WORK.

AND AS AN OLD PERSON WHO HAS CANCER AND JUST GOT A SHOT, I'M KIND OF STARTLED.

YOU MEAN THIS SHOT MAY NOT WORK ON OLDER PEOPLE?

>> WELL, THE IMMUNE SYSTEM IN GENERAL STARTS TO DECREASE WITH AGE, AND SO THERE WILL BE PEOPLE THAT WILL RECEIVE THE SHOT AND WILL STILL BE SUSCEPTIBLE SIMPLY DUE TO THE FACT THAT THEIR IMMUNE SYSTEM IS UNDER STRESS, EITHER BECAUSE OF AGE OR PERHAPS PRIOR EXPERIENCE, AGAIN, WITH CANCER THERAPIES OR OTHER TYPES OF TREATMENT.

AND FOR THAT REASON -- AND THIS IS A TERM THAT'S BEEN REALLY MISUSED AND POLITICIZED, WE HAVE TO REACH WHAT'S CALLED HERD IMMUNITY.

THE IDEA OF HERD IMMUNITY IS IF YOU ARE -- LET'S SAY IN YOUR CASE, YOU'VE HAD THE VACCINATION, BUT YOU'RE STILL SUSCEPTIBLE, HERD IMMUNITY WILL BE KICKING IN IF YOU DON'T EVER COME INTO CONTACT WITH SOMEONE THAT HAS A VIRUS, WHICH MEANS THEY'VE BEEN VACCINATED AND PREVENTED FROM BEING ABLE TO CARRY THAT VIRUS.

THAT'S WHERE WE HAVE TO THINK ABOUT THE VACCINE AS NOT JUST SOMETHING WE'RE DOING FOR OURSELVES, BUT SOMETHING THAT IS SELFLESS.

WE'RE DOING FOR OUR NEIGHBORS, OUR FRIENDS, OUR FAMILY MEMBERS, AND IF WE CONVEY THAT KIND OF CONSISTENT MESSAGING, WHICH ALSO HAPPENS TO BE COMPLETELY ALIGNED WITH THE SCIENCE, THEN I THINK WE'LL BE IN MUCH BETTER SHAPE AND ALL OF US WILL BE PROTECTED, EVEN THOSE IN WHOM THE VACCINE MAYBE WON'T WORK AS WELL BECAUSE OF THEIR PAST HISTORY.

>> DOCTOR, THIS MAY GO TO WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT WITH MUTATIONS, BUT WE HEAR A LOT ABOUT THESE NEW STRAINS OF THE VIRUS.

THEY HAVE NAMES FOR THEM, WHETHER IT'S FROM THE U.K. OR WHEREVER IT IS.

HOW CONCERNED SHOULD WE BE ABOUT THOSE?

BECAUSE -- WELL.

>> WE NEED TO REMAIN VERY CONCERNED BECAUSE, AGAIN, THE VIRUS IS A MOVING TARGET AND THE U.K.

VARIANT AND THE SOUTH AFRICAN VARIANT AND THERE ARE NOW SOME SUGGESTIONS OF AMERICAN VARIA VARIANTS, THOSE ARE INEVITABLE.

AGAIN, THE VIRUS IS GOING TO KEEP CHANGING AND THE MORE VIRUS THAT'S OUT THERE, THE FASTER IT'S GOING TO CHANGE.

THE FLIP SIDE IS THE LESS VIRUS, I.E., PEOPLE ABLE TO FIGHT IT THROUGH VACCINATION AND WEARING MASKS, THE MORE WE CAN GET AHEAD OF IT.

>> IS IT YOUR SENSE THAT THE CURRENT VACCINE WILL COVER THE VARIANTS THAT WE KNOW ABOUT OR NOT?

>> THE DATA THAT HAS COME OUT SO FAR SUGGESTS THAT THE CURRENT VACCINES STILL WORK AGAINST THE U.K.

VARIANT AND I BELIEVE THE STUDIES ARE UNDER WAY RIGHT NOW FOR THE SOUTH AFRICAN VARIANT AND IT'S LIKELY, BASED ON THE RESIDUES, THE PARTS OF THE MOLECULE THAT HAVE CHANGED, PROBABLY THE VACCINE WILL CONTINUE TO WORK.

BUT I CAN PREDICT WITH PRETTY MUCH 100% CERTAINTY THAT PROBABLY TWO, THREE, FOUR YEARS DOWN THE ROAD, THERE WILL BE A VIRUS STRAIN THAT DOESN'T, SO WHAT WE NOW -- DOESN'T RESPOND.

SO WHAT WE NOW NEED TO BE DOING RIGHT NOW, AND THANKFULLY WE ARE, IS DEVELOPING NEW VACCINES, SECOND GENERATION VACCINES.

NOW, THAT DOESN'T MEAN WAIT TO GET YOUR SECOND GENERATION.

IT MEANS GET THE FIRST GENERATION AND THE SECOND GENERATION WILL WORK EVEN BETTER.

>> SO THE VIRUS ITSELF, YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT SITTING AROUND DOING LIKE THIS.

OKAY, THEY CAME UP WITH A VACCINE, HOW DO I AVOID THAT.

IT DOES THIS JUST NATURALLY, CORRECT?

>> RANDOM MUTATION LEADS TO BAD THINGS.

IT CAN LEAD TO GOOD THINGS OVER TIME, BUT IT USUALLY, IN THE CASE OF VIRUSES, LEADS TO BAD THINGS.

>> OKAY.

SO I GOT MY FIRST SHOT.

I DIDN'T, I REALLY WANT ONE, BUT, YOU KNOW, I GOT MY FIRST SHOT.

AT THAT POINT, DO THEY GIVE ME A SLIP OF PAPER AND TELLS ME COME BACK ON THIS DAY AT THIS TIME TO GET YOUR SECOND SHOT?

OR DO I -- I MEAN, HOW DOES THAT WORK?

>> THAT'S THE WAY THAT IT SHOULD WORK AND THAT'S THE WAY IN WHICH THE SCIENCE HAS SHOWN THAT IT CAN WORK.

AND THAT IS THAT THE MODERNA VACCINE AND THE PFIZER VACCINE, THE TWO THAT ARE APPROVED SO FAR, HAVE EITHER FOUR WEEKS OR THREE WEEKS IN BETWEEN VISITS AND BETWEEN THE FIRST SHOT AND THEN THE BOOSTER.

NOW, THIS RAISES WHAT'S GOING TO POTENTIALLY BE A PRETTY POLITICALLY MESSY THING, WHICH IS THAT THERE ARE DISCUSSIONS BOTH IN THE U.S. AND THE U.K. ABOUT SAYING, WELL, LET'S TAKE THE SECOND SHOT THAT, FOR THE MOST PART, WAS BEING PUT IN A FREEZER, SO WHEN YOU GOT YOUR FIRST SHOT, THE SECOND SHOT IS PUT IN A FREEZER TO WAIT FOR YOU TO COME BACK A FEW WEEKS LATER, AND PEOPLE ARE SAYING LET'S USE THAT SECOND SHOT AND IMMUNIZE TWICE AS MANY PEOPLE WITH THE ASSUMPTION THAT THEN THERE WILL BE SOME FUTURE SHOT THAT WILL ARISE AND THEN -- FUTURE VACCINE THAT WILL COME IN AND WE CAN GIVE YOU YOUR SECOND BOOST.

MY CONCERN WITH THAT IS, FRANKLY, WE DON'T HAVE ANY SCIENCE TO SAY THAT THIS VACCINE WILL CONTINUE TO WORK AS WELL.

WE'VE GOT REMARKABLE DATA WITH THE CURRENT SITUATION, WITH THE CURRENT WAY IN WHICH IT'S BEING USED, SO I'M HESITANT, FRANKLY, ABOUT SAYING LET'S USE ALL THE FIRST DOSES AND GET EVERYONE A FIRST DOSE AND THEN COME BACK AND DO A SECOND DOSE.

BECAUSE IF INSTEAD OF THREE OR FOUR WEEKS, IT'S THREE OR FOUR MONTHS, WE FRANKLY DON'T HAVE THE DATA TO SAY IT WILL STILL WORK AS WELL.

AND WE SHOULD NEVER FORGET THAT WE HAVE GOT AN AMAZINGLY EFFECTIVE VACCINE THAT SEEMS TO WORK 90 TO 95% OF THE TIME AND WE DON'T WANT TO SQUANDER THAT.

>> WELL, LOCALLY, ARE YOU A LITTLE CONCERNED, IT'S A LITTLE CONFUSING BECAUSE IN ST. LOUIS COUNTY, FOR EXAMPLE, YOU CAN SIGN UP TO GET VACCINE THROUGH MERCY HOSPITAL OR BJC OR ST. LOUIS COUNTY AND ITS DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH.

SHOULDN'T THERE BE ONE CENTRALIZED LOCATION WHERE EVERYONE SIGNS UP AND THEN, I DON'T KNOW, EITHER SHOWS UP AT WALGREENS, CVS, OR BUSCH STADIUM TO GET THIS AND EVERYONE KNOWS WHAT THE DRILL IS GOING TO BE?

FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND, DOCTORS WHO AREN'T AFFILIATED WITH THE BIG HOSPITALS, THEY THEMSELVES DON'T KNOW WHERE TO GET THE VACCINES.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

AND THIS IS PART OF THE PROBLEM.

IT WAS ANNOUNCED EARLIER TODAY THAT THERE BASICALLY WASN'T A NATIONAL PLAN FOR DOING THIS.

AND FRANKLY, FROM THE WORK I HAD DONE IN THE PAST WORKING WITH THE DEFENSE DEPARTMENT AND OTHER GROUPS IN PREPARATION FOR A PANDEMIC, WE KNOW HOW TO DO THIS.

WE'VE JUST CHOSEN NOT TO.

SO IT SEEMS LIKE PERHAPS AS OF THE LAST 36 HOURS, WE'VE BEGUN TO START PUTTING THIS TOGETHER, BUT YOU'RE EXACTLY RIGHT.

WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO TRACK WHO'S GOTTEN THE VACCINE AS WELL AS WHO HASN'T GOTTEN THE VACCINE BECAUSE WE DON'T WANT PEOPLE TO FALL BETWEEN THE CONTRIBUTION AND NOT EVERYWHERE -- NOT EVERYONE IS MOBILE AS PERHAPS WE ARE AND NOT ABLE TO GO TO MERCY OR WASH-U OR OTHER PLACES.

WE NEED TO SPEND A LOT OF ENERGY FIGURING OUT HOW WE GET THE LARGEST NUMBER OF PEOPLE VACCINATED AND PROTECTED AS WE CAN.

>> GOING INTO THE WINTER, THERE WAS GRAVE CONCERN THAT THERE WOULD BE THE DOUBLE THREAT OF THE FLU AND THEN, OF COURSE, THE COVID-19.

IF THERE IS GOOD NEWS, IT SEEMS AS THOUGH A LOT MORE PEOPLE TOOK ADVANTAGE OF THE FLU SHOT THIS YEAR.

HAVE YOU SEEN DATA TO SUGGEST THAT -- DID WE SKIRT A CATASTROPHE OR IS IT STILL A POSSIBILITY WHEN IT COMES TO THAT DOUBLE THREAT OF THE FLU AND COVID?

>> WELL, WE'RE IN PRIMETIME FLU SEASON RIGHT NOW.

SO IT'S TOO EARLY TO DECLARE VICTORY, BUT SO FAR, THE SOCIAL ISOLATION AND THE MASKS AND ALL ARE HAVING THE SIDE EFFECT, IF YOU WILL, OF HELPING TO PROTECT AGAINST FLU.

NOW, IT'S INTERESTING BECAUSE WE LOOK BACK SIX MONTHS AGO, WE WERE SEEING THE SAME THING IN SOUTH AMERICA WHERE, IN THE SOUTHERN HEMISPHERE, THEY TEND TO GET THE FLU IN OUR SUMMER MONTHS, THEIR WINTER MONTHS, AND WE SAW REMARKABLY LOW FLU RATES.

AND SO THAT IS ONE BRIGHT EVENT, WHICH IS THAT FLU APPEARS TO BE LESS PROBLEMATIC, BUT KEEP IN MIND THAT FLU KILLS IN A GOOD YEAR 30,000 PEOPLE, IN A BAD YEAR 60,000 PEOPLE, AND AS HORRENDOUS AS THAT IS, AND THAT IS TRULY HORRENDOUS, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT 400,000 PEOPLE THAT HAVE DIED IN THE PAST YEAR.

SADLY, IT'S ALMOST A ROUNDING ERROR WHEN YOU LOOK AT FLU AS COMPARE TO COVID-19, AND I THINK A LOT OF THAT MISPERCEPTION ABOUT HOW BAD COVID-19 IS IS BECAUSE PEOPLE HAVE SAID, OR SOME PEOPLE HAVE SAID, OH, THIS IS KIND OF A VERSION OF THE FLU, IT'S FOR WORSE.

I CAN TELL YOU IT'S TENFOLD WORSE THAN THE AVERAGE, AT LEAST.

WHEN THE REAL NUMBERS COME IN, WHEN WE REALLY HAVE A CHANCE TO GO THROUGH THE MORTALITY DATA, I BET IT'S GOING TO BE FAR MORE THAN TENFOLD.

>> DOCTOR, I THINK I CAN SPEAK FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE WHEN I SAY, WHEN I GET MY SECOND SHOTTING I'M GOING TO FEEL LIBERATED AND I'M GOING TO GET IN THE CAR AND I'M HEADED OUT TO SEE SOME FRIENDS.

I'M GOING TO GO TO ARIZONA, I MIGHT GO TO OHIO, TEXAS.

ARE YOU TELLING ME THAT SINCE IT'S OLDER PEOPLE LIKE ME WHO ARE GETTING THESE SHOTS FIST, WHEN WE GET IN THE CAR AND GOING ON ROAD TRIPS, WE'RE LOOKING AT ANOTHER POTENTIAL CATASTROPHE?

>> YES, AND I'LL TELL YOU IF YOU DO EXACTLY WHAT YOU JUST SAID, YOU'RE LOOKING AT A PERSONAL CATASTROPHE BECAUSE THE DATA SHOWS THAT IT'S PROBABLY TWO TO THREE WEEKS AFTER YOUR SECOND SHOT THAT YOU -- >> WELL, I ACTUALLY MEANT WAITING THREE WEEKS.

>> OKAY, THAT'S IMPORTANT, BECAUSE YOU'VE GOT TO GET THAT SECOND SHOT AND GIVE IT A LITTLE BIT OF TIME TO WORK.

BUT AGAIN, WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT, YOU KNOW, COVID-19 IS GOING TO BE ENDEMIC.

THERE ARE GOING TO BE PEOPLE AND PERHAPS YOU, PERHAPS OTHERS THAT, ARE STILL POTENTIALLY GOING TO BE SUSCEPTIBLE.

ONE THING THAT IS UNLIKELY, BUT IT'S NOT IMPOSSIBLE TO IMAGINE, IS THAT WE KNOW THAT IMMUNIZATIONS PROTECT PEOPLE IN THE LONG TERM, BUT LET'S SAY YOU'VE BEEN IMMUNIZED, IT'S BEEN THREE OR FOUR WEEKS, YOU'RE FEELING GOOD, YOU'RE GOING TO GO ON A TRIP AND YOU GO TO A DINER, YOU GET LUNCH, AND YOU BECOME INFECTED.

YOUR IMMUNE SYSTEM IS PROBABLY GOING TO KICK IN AND YOU'RE GOING TO BE PROTECTED AND NEVER KNOW WHAT HAPPENED, BUT WHAT WE DON'T YET KNOW IS WHETHER OR NOT THERE WILL BE A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME IN WHICH YOU CAN TRANSMIT THAT VIRUS TO SOMEONE ELSE.

YOU COULD UPDATE BEING KIND OF A TYPHOID MARY, IF YOU WILL, AND CAUSING HARM TO SOMEONE ELSE EVEN THOUGH YOU HAVE NO INTENTION OF DOING SO.

WE NEED TO, AGAIN, UNDERSTAND MORE ABOUT THIS, LET THE DATA HAPPEN.

IF EVERYONE JUST COUNTS THE THREE WEEKS AFTER THE SECOND SHOT AND RETURNS BACK TO NORMAL, WE HAVE A RISK THAT WE MIGHT BE ENDANGERING OTHERS AROUND US.

SO I THINK IT'S PROBABLY A GOOD BET TO BE A BIT MORE CONSERVATIVE ABOUT THAT.

YES, WE ALL WANT TO RETURN BACK TO NORMAL AND GO ON TRIPS AND EVERYTHING ELSE, BUT WE NEED TO RECOGNIZE THAT THE DATA ARE GOING TO DETERMINE WHAT HAPPENS.

>> DOCTOR, DID YOU SAY SOMETHING ABOUT -- THE LAST 36 HOURS, SOMETHING HAPPENED IN THE LAST 36 HOURS?

>> I WAS GOING TO SAY THE SAME THING, RAY.

[ LAUGHTER ] >> I GOT TO CHANGE THE SUBJECT BRIEFLY.

ANOTHER BOOK YOU WROTE, AND I'M JUST INTERESTED IN THIS TOPIC WHILE WE HAVE YOU, IS ABOUT DRUG PRICES.

IT SEEMS THAT THAT'S ONE AREA THAT THERE'S BIPARTISAN CONSENSUS THAT THE DRUG PRICES ARE TOO HIGH AND BIPARTISAN INACTION ON THAT SUBJECT IN THE PAST, HOWEVER MANY DECADES.

CAN YOU TALK TO US A LITTLE ABOUT THAT?

I KNOW WE'VE GOT A LIMITED AMOUNT OF TIME.

>> WE'VE BEEN -- SO SOME OF THE WORK I'VE BEEN DOING AT WASH-U HAS BEEN TRACKING WHAT HAVE BEEN THE SOURCES OF INNOVATION RESPONSIBLE FOR MEDICINE.

AND THE ONE SUBJECT I SWORE I WOULD NEVER TOUCH WAS DRUG PRICING BECAUSE IT WAS SUCH A MESS AND IT'S POLITICIZED AND EVERYTHING ELSE, AND MY WIFE, WHO ACTUALLY FULL DISCLOSURE WORKS AT PFIZER, SAID BECAUSE OF THIS FEAR, YOU NEED TO ADDRESS THIS.

AND WHEN WE WADED INTO IT, WE BASICALLY HAVE FOUND THAT IT IS A COMPLETE MESS.

DRUG PRICING, WE ALL RECOGNIZE THE PROBLEM, BUT WHEN YOU LOOK AT WHO'S RESPONSIBLE FOR IT, IT'S NOT JUST THE BIG BAD PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANY, AND BELIEVE ME, THERE ARE MANY BIG BAD PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANIES AND WE POINT THAT OUT IN THE BOOK, BUT IT'S HOW THE MEDICINES ARE DISTRIBUTED.

IT'S HOW THE MEDICINES ARE CREATED.

IT'S THE FACT THAT IT TAKES, DEPENDING UPON WHO YOU BELIEVE, SOMEWHERE BETWEEN ONE AND THREE BILLION DOLLARS TO DEVELOP EVERY NEW MEDICINE.

AND SOME OF THAT CAN EXPLAIN THE COST, BUT FRANKLY, WHAT AMAZED ME IS THAT THE COST OF RESEARCH AND DEVELOPING A NEW MEDICINE IS, AGAIN A ROUNDING ERROR AS COMPARE TO THE PRICE OF MEDICINE AND IT FUNDAMENTALLY BOILS DOWN TO THE FACT THAT THE PRICE OF MEDICINES ARE DETERMINED BY WHAT THE MARKET WILL BEAR.

MEANING HOW MUCH CAN A COMPANY CHARGE OR THE DISTRIBUTOR CHARGE UNTIL THERE'S FINALLY A POINT WHERE PEOPLE SCREAM AND YELL AND SAY I'M NOT GOING TO PAY THAT.

SADLY, WE'VE NOT REACHED THAT POINT.

THE PRICES CONTINUE TO RISE AND PEOPLE CONTINUE TO PAY, AND THIS IS BECOMING A REAL PROBLEM.

I MEAN, IT'S BEEN A REAL PROBLEM, BUT IT'S AFFECTING MORE AND MORE PEOPLE EVERY YEAR.

>> JUST 30 SECONDS TO GO, ALVIN.

>> I'M NOT HOLDING YOU TO THIS.

I UNDERSTAND.

BUT I -- MY BIRTHDAY IS SEPTEMBER THE 6th.

I'LL BE 61, OKAY?

AM I KICKING IT ON MY 61st BIRTHDAY AND WE'RE BACK TO NORMAL?

IS THAT POSSIBLE BY FOURTH OF JULY?

LET'S FOCUS ON SEPTEMBER THE 6th.

JUST WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> I DON'T THINK THERE WILL EVER BE A RETURN TO WHERE WE WERE 12 MONTHS AGO, BUT I THINK WE'LL BE AT A NEW NORMAL THAT IS MUCH BETTER THAN OUR CURRENT NORMAL.

I THINK WE'LL BE GOING BACK TO WORK.

RESTAURANTS WILL BE OPEN, BUT IT'S GOING TO BE CRUCIAL THAT WE PROTECT THOSE WHOSE IMMUNE SYSTEMS CAN'T PROTECT THEM, AND SO THAT WE GET GOOD VACCINATION, THAT WE CONTINUE PROBABLY TO WEAR MASKS EVEN UP TILL THAT TIME.

>> LARGE CROWDS?

DR. KINCH, I'M SORRY TO SAY, WE HAVE TO CUT THINGS OFF HERE.

WHY DON'T WE BRING YOU BACK WHEN YOUR NEXT BOOK COMES OUT IN APRIL.

>> HAPPY TO DO THAT.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Announcer: DONNYBROOK IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE MEMBERS OF NINE PBS.