>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON," DR. LORNA BREEN RAN AN EMERGENCY ROOM, GOT COVID-19, AND IN APRIL DIED BY SUICIDE.

HER BROTHER-IN-LAW, AND A DOCTOR WORKING TO ADDRESS MENTAL HEALTH CONCERNS ON FRONTLINE MEDICAL WORKERS, JOINS US.

LATER ON, A PRIMER, OF SORTS, ON IMPEACHMENT 2.0.

CAN THE SENATE BAN TRUMP FROM EVER RUNNING AGAIN?

AND SPEAKING OF, DIRECTOR MICHAEL KIRK ON HIS LATEST FRONTLINE DOCUMENTARY: "TRUMP'S AMERICAN CARNAGE."

>>> AS MASSACHUSETTS CONTINUES TO FALL IN THE RANKINGS WHEN IT COMES TO THE PERCENT OF THE POPULATION WHO HAVE GOTTEN THEIR FIRST COVID-19 VACCINE -- NOW IN 33rd PLACE BY THE "WASHINGTON POST'S" COUNT -- GOVERNOR CHARLIE BAKER MADE SEVERAL ANNOUNCEMENTS TODAY.

FIRST, PEOPLE 75 AND OLDER IN THE STATE WILL BE ELIGIBLE TO GET THEIR VACCINE STARTING A WEEK FROM TODAY, FEBRUARY 1.

AND HE MOVED UP THE NEXT GROUP TO BE ELIGIBLE AFTER THAT, RESIDENTS 65 AND OVER, AS WELL AS PEOPLE WITH TWO OR MORE CO-MORBIDITIES, MEANING CHRONIC HEALTH ISSUES THAT PUT THEM AT HIGHER RISK OF GETTING SERIOUSLY SICK IF THEY GET COVID-19.

BAKER ALSO SAID 165 VACCINATION SITES WILL BE OPEN AROUND THE STATE BY MID-FEBRUARY, AND STARTING THIS WEDNESDAY, ANYONE WHO'S ELIGIBLE FOR A VACCINE CAN GO ONLINE TO mass.gov/covid-19-vaccine TO FIND A VACCINATION SITE AND REGISTER FOR AN APPOINTMENT.

THE WEBSITE ALSO LISTS GROUPS IN ORDER OF ELIGIBILITY, SO YOU CAN SEE WHERE YOU MIGHT FALL IN LINE.

AND WHILE THE NEW SYSTEM CERTAINLY SOUNDS LIKE IT WILL BE OF MORE HELP THAN THE PREVIOUS ONE, WHERE FEW SEEMED TO KNOW WHERE TO GO AT ALL, IT STILL FALLS SHORT OF THE KIND OF THE PRE-REGISTRATION SYSTEM OFFERED BY SEVERAL OTHER STATES, LIKE NEW MEXICO, OKLAHOMA, INDIANA, AND WEST VIRGINIA, IN WHICH YOU CAN ENTER YOUR INFORMATION IN ADVANCE, AND THEN IT LET'S YOU KNOW WHEN YOU'RE ELIGIBLE AND SETS UP AN APPOINTMENT -- STILL SEEMS LIKE THE WAY TO GO TO ME.

I SHOULD NOTE, BY THE WAY, THAT ON THE SHOW LAST WEEK, THE ISSUE OF A CENTRAL DATA BASE FOR PEOPLE TO VOLUNTEER TO ADMINISTER VACCINES CAME UP, AND WE'D SAID AT THE TIME THERE WASN'T ONE.

BUT, IN FACT, THERE IS, AND YOU CAN FIND IT AT maresponds.org.

SO IF YOU'RE ABLE AND WILLING, PLEASE CHECK IT IT OUT.

SO FAR THE STATE HAS USED LESS THAN HALF OF THE 859,000 DOSES IT'S BEEN GIVEN SO FAR, MORE THAN 63,000 OF WHICH HAVE BEEN SECOND DOSES, BUT GOVERNOR BAKER SAID TODAY HE'S STILL CONCERNED THAT DEMAND COULD OUTPACE SUPPLY IN THE WEEKS AHEAD.

>> THOSE RESULTS WILL DEPEND ON SEVERAL VARIABLES, INCLUDING DOSES, INCLUDING THE AVAILABILITY OF DOSES FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

IF WE CONTINUE TO GET THE SAME NUMBER OF DOSES WE'RE GETTING NOW, WE MAY END UP WITH SOME EMPTY SITE SEATS AND EMPTY APPOINTMENTS AT SOME OF OUR SITES.

>> Braude: AND THAT FEAR IS NOT EXACTLY UNFOUNDED.

AS THE HEAD OF THE C.D.C.

TOLD FOX NEWS YESTERDAY, SHE STILL DOESN'T KNOW EXACTLY HOW MUCH VACCINE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAS RIGHT NOW.

>> THE FACT THAT WE DON'T KNOW TODAY, FIVE DAYS INTO THIS ADMINISTRATION AND WEEKS INTO PLANNING, HOW MUCH VACCINE WE HAVE, JUST GIVES YOU A SENSE OF THE CHALLENGES WE'VE BEEN LEFT WITH.

>> Braude: A CHALLENGE WE NEED TO MEET FAST, WITH THE U.S.

PASSING 25 MILLION CONFIRMED CASES OVER THE WEEKEND, AND NEARING 420,000 DEAD.

IT'S A STAGGERING NUMBER -- ALREADY 10,000 MORE THAN ALL AMERICAN SOLDIERS KILLED IN WORLD WAR II -- WITH A TOLL THAT REACHES FAR BEYOND TO THE MILLIONS OF LOVED ONES LEFT BEHIND AND THE HEALTH CARE WORKERS WATCHING PATIENT AFTER PATIENT DIE, OFTEN ALONE.

IN SOME CASES, THE PATIENTS ARE FRIENDS AND COLLEAGUES, AND, UNSURPRISINGLY, IT'S HAVING A PROFOUND EFFECT.

AND A NEW POLL OF THE HEALTH CARE WORKERS, WHO ALREADY FACED HIGH LEVELS OF EXHAUSTION AND POST-TRAUMATIC STRESS DISORDER, MORE THAN HALF WHO HAVE CARED FOR COVID-19 PATIENTS SAY THEIR MENTAL HEALTH HAS DETERIORATED SINCE THE PANDEMIC BEGAN, WITH 22% SAYING IT'S GOTTEN MUCH WORSE.

AND IT CAN AFFECT EVEN THE STRONGEST OF PEOPLE, LIKE DR. LORNA BREEN, A HARD-WORKING, HIGH ACHIEVER, WITH NO HISTORY OF MENTAL ILLNESS.

AFTER GRADUATING MEDICAL SCHOOL IN VIRGINIA, AND SERVING AS CHIEF RESIDENT AT LONG ISLAND JEWISH MEDICAL CENTER, IN 2004 SHE JOINED THE EMERGENCY DEPARTMENTS AT COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY MEDICAL CENTER AND THE NEW YORK PRESBYTERIAN ALLEN HOSPITAL, KNOWN AS THE ALLEN, WHICH SERVED A LOW-INCOME COMMUNITY IN NORTHERN MANHATTAN.

IN 2011 SHE WAS PROMOTED TO MEDICAL DIRECTOR OF THE EMERGENCY DEPARTMENT AT THE ALLEN, WHICH, LIKE MANY OTHER HOSPITALS, WAS OVERRUN WHEN THE PANDEMIC HIT -- SHORT ON PERSONAL PROTECTIVE EQUIPMENT FOR WORKERS, BEDS AND VENTILATORS FOR PATIENTS, AS SHE TRIED TO MANAGE IT ALL.

DR. BREEN BEGAN TO SHOW SYMPTOMS OF COVID-19.

SHE QUARANTINED AND RESTED FOR WEEKS BUT RETURNED TO WORK IN EARLY APRIL, CONCERNED ABOUT STAFF AND SHORTAGES.

HER FRIENDS AND CO-WORKERS TOLD THE "NEW YORK TIMES" THAT SHE TOLD THEM SHE WAS "BAFFLED," "OVERWHELMED," "TOTALLY LOST," AND "DROWNING," IN THE DAYS AFTER HER RETURN.

ON APRIL 9, SHE CALLED HER SISTER AND TOLD HER, "I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO.

I CAN'T GET OUT OF THE CHAIR."

BUT 17 DAYS LATER, LORNA BREEN DIED BY SUICIDE.

I'M JOINED NOW BY THAT SISTER'S HUSBAND, COREY FEIST, ALONG WITH DR. BETH LOWN, AN ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR AT HARVARD MEDICAL SCHOOL AND THE CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER OF THE SCHWARTZ CENTER FOR COMPASSIONATE HEALTH CARE, WHICH IS HOSTING COREY AND HIS WIFE, AMONG OTHERS, FOR A PANEL TOMORROW ON WHEN HEALTH CARE HEROS NEED HELP.

I SHOULD MENTION THAT DR. BETH LOWN WAS ONCE MY PHYSICIAN, AS WELL.

>> Braude: DR. LOWN, IT IS A PLEASURE TO HAVE YOU HERE.

I REALLY APPRECIATE YOUR TIME.

THANK YOU.

>> THANKS FOR INVITING, INVITING US, JIM.

>> Braude: COREY, YOUR SISTER-IN-LAW NEVER ASKED FOR HELP?

>> NEVER ASKED FOR HELP.

QUITE THE CONTRARY, ALWAYS OFFERING HELP.

WHEN SHE CAME BACK FROM COID, SHE WANTED TO MAKE SURE HER COLLEAGUES GOT THE P.P.E.

PACKETS THAT THEY HAD DELIVERED TO HER BED IN MANHATTAN.

>> Braude: AND SHE FINALLY DID GET HELP, OBVIOUSLY, IN THE COUPLE OF WEEKS, IN BETWEEN THAT PHONE CALL TO HER YOUNGER SISTER, YOUR WIFE, UNTIL SHE TOOK HER LIFE ON THE 26th OF APRIL, BUT OBVIOUSLY IT WAS TOO LATE?

>> IT WAS TOO LATE.

WHAT IS SO CRITICALLY UNFORTUNATE ABOUT THIS IS THE STIGMA FOR MENTAL HEALTH AND THE ABILITY TO ASK JUST FOR HELP.

AND THAT'S SO -- WE'VE GOT TO CHANGE THAT DYNAMIC IMMEDIATELY.

>> Braude: I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THAT.

DR. LOWN, YOU KNOW WHAT IS AMAZING TO ME, IT IS NOT AS IF THIS JUST CAME INTO BEING, THIS INCREDIBLE LEVEL OF STRESS AND DEPRESSION WITH COVID-19.

DR. BREEN HERSELF WROTE A PIECE ON CLINICIAN BURNOUT IN THE AMERICAN JOURNAL OF AMERICAN MEDICINE IN NOVEMBER OF 2019, BUT IT SEEMED TO ME AS A PATIENT, RATHER THAN A PROVIDER OR A HEALTH CARE EXECUTIVE, AS COREY IS, THE CULTURE DOESN'T SEEM TO ALLOW TO ADMIT THAT YOU'RE STRUGGLING, NEED HELP.

YOU JUST HAVE TO PLOW AHEAD AND KEEP AT IT FOR ENDLESS HOURS.

IS THAT A FAIR SUMMARY?

>> Doctor: THAT'S ABSOLUTELY A FAIR SUMMARY.

I USED TO SAY THAT, YOU KNOW, SOME OF OUR MOST DEARLY HELD VALUES THAT MAKE US GREAT AS CLINICIANS, OUR SENSE OF AT TRUERUISM, OUR COMPLETE DEVOTION -- MOST HEALTH CARE PROFESSIONALS HAVE A CALLING, BUT IT SERVES AS A DOUBLE-EDGED SWORD BECAUSE IT MAKES IT HARD FOR US TO ASK FOR HELP AND REACH OUT AND CARE FOR OWRGSES.

OURSELVES.

>> Braude: THIS IS FOR YOU, DR. LOWN, IN MANY STATE LICENSURE BOARDS FOR MEDICINE, IF YOU ACKNOWLEDGE, WHICH YOU APPARENTLY ARE ACQUIRED TO, YOUR WHOLE MENTAL HEALTH HISTORY GOING ALL THE WAY BACK, NOT JUST YOUR CURRENT STATE OF AFFAIRS, THAT CAN KNOCK YOU OUT OF THE PRACTICE.

YOUR CANDOR CAN KNOCK YOU OUT OF THE PRACTICE.

AM I RIGHT ABOUT THAT?

>> Doctor: THAT IS ABSOLUTELY TRUE.

THERE WAS A STUDY THAT WAS DONE RECENTLY, AND ABOUT 94% OF THE STATE HAVE QUESTIONS ON THEIR APPLICATIONS FOR RELICENSURE, THAT REQUIRES YOU TO DISCLOSE IF YOU'VE EVER HAD A MENTAL PSYCHIATRIC OR PSYCHOLOGICAL OR MAJOR HEALTH CONDITION.

AND THAT HAS TO BE ADDRESSED.

THAT IS SOMETHING THAT COREY'S FOUNDATION IS WORKING ON.

>> Braude: I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THAT LEGISLATION IN A MINUTE.

COREY, BEFORE WE GET TO IT, THERE WERE SO MANY PAINFUL THINGS IN THAT "NEW YORK TIMES" STORY.

WHEN YOU'RE SISTER-IN-LAW, DR. BREEN, TOLD YOUR WIFE THAT SHE WAS STRUGGLING, AND THEN WENT ON TO SAY THAT SHE WAS SO EMBARRASSED, HEARING A PERSON IN HEALTH CARE, WHEN WE'RE ALL TELLING PEOPLE WITH MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES IN THE SOCIETY AT LARGE, TO USE YOUR WORD BEFORE, THERE SHOULDN'T BE A STIGMA.

YOU BREAK YOUR ARM, YOU TALK ABOUT IT.

YOU HAVE MENTAL HEALTH CONCERNS, YOU TALK ABOUT THAT, TOO.

IF YOU'RE A HIGH-ACHIEVING DOCTOR, LIKE DR. BREEN, HEARING HERIOUS HER USE THOSE WORDS, I'M SO EMBARRASSED, IS PAINFUL TO HEAR.

WHAT WAS IT LIKE FOR YOU AND YOUR WIFE?

>> IT WAS HORRIBLE.

THE FIRST THING SHE STARTED TO FEAR WAS THE FEAR THAT HER COLLEAGUES PERCEIVED HER AS NOT BEING ABLE TO KEEP UP WITH THE PATIENT DEMAND.

IN THE MIDDLE OF A PANDEMIC, ALBEIT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE BIGGEST SPIKE IN THE PANDEMIC IN NEW YORK.

IT IS PURELY NONSENSICAL THAT THIS SHOULD BE ANYTHING TO BE CONCERNED ABOUT.

WE ARE BOTH ATTORNEYS BY TRAINING, AND IT IS NOTHING A LAWYER WOULD BE CONCERNED ABOUT.

SO IT WAS NONSENSICAL.

CULTURALLY, I THINK WE HAVE A HUGE PROBLEM THAT WE NEED TO ADDRESS HERE.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, DR. LOWN, THE THING THAT IS AMAZING TO ME -- AND AGAIN, WE'LL GET TO THE LEGISLATION, CALLED THE DR. LORNA BREEN HEALTH PROTECTION ACT PENDING BEFORE CONGRESS, IN JUST A SECOND -- I KNOW WE WANT CONGRESS TO DO SOMETHING HERE, BUT IT SEEMS TO ME THAT LEADERS IN THE HEALTH CARE COMMUNITY COULD FIX THIS NOW.

I'VE BEEN HEARING, SINCE I WAS A KID, ABOUT DOCTORS AND NURSES AND OTHER HEALTH CARE WORKERS -- I'VE HEARD IT FROM YOU, ACTUALLY, YEARS GONE BY, WORKING 18 HOURS A DAY.

SO IT ISN'T LIKE CAPTAIN RENONE INCAS IN CASABLANCA THAT IS SURPRISED THERE IS STRESS IN THE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM.

WHY HAVEN'T THAT ADDRESSED IT RATHER THAN WAITING FOR CONGRESS TO DO SOMETHING?

>> Doctor: IT IS SO COMPLEX, JIM.

THI BURNED-OUT EPIDEMIC WE'VE BEEN IN THE MIDST OF FOR DECADES -- SOME OF IT IS OVERWORKED, BUT IT IS COMPLICATED.

WE'VE BEEN INCREASINGLY REGULATED, AND THERE ARE SO MANY ADMINISTRATIVE DUTIES, DOCUMENTATION, PRODUCTIVITY EXPECTATION REQUIREMENTS, ALL OF THOSE THINGS, WEARING GOWNS IS THE SOUL AND THE HEART OF CLINICIANS WHO ARE JUST TRYING TO SEE THEIR PATIENTS AND GIVE THEM THE BEST POSSIBLE CARE THEY CAN.

SO THIS IS A CONSTANT PROBLEM.

>> Braude: AND ADD INTO THAT VIRTUALLY EVERY DOCTOR OR NURSE OR HEALTH CARE WORKER WHO HAS BEEN ON THE SHOW SINCE FEBRUARY OF LAST YEAR SAID IT WAS LIKE A WAR ZONE IN THEIR HOSPITALS.

COREY, GIVE US A SUMMARY OF THIS LEGISLATION -- BY THE WAY, IT IS BIPARTISAN LEGISLATION.

TELL US THE GIFT OF WHAT GIST OF WHAT IT WOULD DO?

>> YOU JUST SAID IT.

THE KEY HERE IS THAT THIS IS NOT CONTROVERSIAL LEGISLATION.

WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT HOW DIVIDED THE COUNTRY IS RIGHT NOW, HERE IS SOMETHING WE CAN ALL AGREE ON, WHICH IS: WE HAVE TO SUPPORT THE MENTAL HEALTH OF OUR HEALTH CARE WORKERS.

SO THIS LEGISLATION ACTUALLY IS ABOUT TO BE REINTRODUCED BY SENATOR TIM KAINE, SO ALL LEGISLATION GOES AWAY, IF YOU WILL, ON JANUARY 1st OR DECEMBER 31st.

PART OF THE PROBLEM AS YOU WERE ALLUDING TO IN THE HEALTH CARE INDUSTRY IS WHERE THESE CULTURAL NORMS START.

THEY START MANY CASES IN THE EDUCATIONAL TRAINING.

SO ONE OF THE KEY PROVISIONS HERE TO MAKE A LONG-TERM CHANGE IS TO PROVIDE GRANTS FOR TRAINING ON HOW TO DO THIS IN MEDICAL SCHOOLS, NURSING SCHOOLS, HEALTH CARE PROFESSIONAL SCHOOLS, SO IT TAKES CARE OF THE LEARNING COMPONENT.

IT ALSO GOES INTO HEALTH CARE SYSTEMS RIGHT NOW AND DEMONSTRATES THE BEST PRACTICES THAT HELP THEIR INSTITUTIONS DECIDE WHAT THEY CAN AND SHOULD BE USING.

IT ESTABLISHES A NATIONWIDE ADVOCACY AND AWARENESS ISSUES.

I'VE BEEN IN HEALTH CARE FOR OVER 20 YEARS, AND I WILL TELL YOU, WORKING WITH EXECUTIVES ACROSS THE INDUSTRY, THEY'RE JUST SIMPLY NOT AWARE THAT THEY SIT AT THE NEXUS OF A LOT pOF THESE PROBLEMS YOU'VE GOT MANY LAYERS HERE.

NOT JUST THE FEDERAL LAYER, THE STATE LAYER, BUT ALSO THE LOCAL LAYER.

AND EVERYONE HAS TO PLAY A PART IN SOLVING AND ADDRESSING THIS ISSUE RIGHT NOW.

>> Braude: BY THE WAY, WE CALLED SENATOR TIM KAINE'S OFFICE, AND HE SAID HIS HOPE WAS THIS LEGISLATION WOULD BE ATTACHED TO THE NEXT RELIEF BILL, WHICH HOPEFULLY WILL BE COMING SOON.

COREY FEIST, GOOD LUCK WITH YOUR WORK AND FOUNDATION, AND DR. LOWN, ALWAYS A PLEASURE TO SEE YOU.

>> Doctor: THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING US.

TAKE CARE.

>> Braude: THANK YOU.

FOR MORE INFORMATION ON DR. BREEN, THE MENTAL HEALTH CRISIS FACING MEDICAL WORKS, WHAT YOU CAN DO TO HELP, VISIT Dr.LornaBreen.org.

>>> NEXT UP, 100 SENATORS WILL BE SWORN IN AS JURORS IN THE SECOND IMPEACHMENT TRIAL FOR DONALD TRUMP.

THE ARGUMENTS THEMSELVES WON'T TAKE PLACE FOR ANOTHER TWO WEEKS, BUT THERE ARE STILL A LOT OF QUESTIONS ABOUT EXACTLY HOW THIS ALL WORKS WITH A PRESIDENT THAT IS NO LONGER IN OFFICE AND JUST WHAT KIND OF POWER THE SENATE HAS OVER TRUMP'S FUTURE.

JOINING ME IS JEANNIE SUK GERSEN, A HARVARD LAW SCHOOL PROFESSOR AND A CONTRIBUTING WRITER AT "THE NEW YORKER" MAGAZINE.

THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> Braude: I THINK EVEN FOR OUR VIEWERS WHO FAILED CIVICS, MOST OF AMERICA KNOWS THAT IT TAKES A TWO-THIRDS VOTE IN THE SENATE TO CONVICT IN AN IMPEACHMENT TRIAL.

BUT AS YOU KNOW, A BUNCH OF REPUBLICANS, SENATORS AND MEMBERS OF THE HOUSE, HAVE SAID THERE SHOULDN'T BE A TRIAL TO BEGIN WITH.

HE HAS LEFT OFFICE, THE CONSTITUTION DOESN'T PERMIT FOR ONCE A TRIAL ONCE THE OFFICE-HOLDER HAS LEFT.

DO THEY HAVE ANYTHING TO THEIR ARGUMENT?

>> THEY DO HAVE SOMETHING TO THEIR ARGUMENT.

I DON'T THINK THE WEIGHT OF THE AUTHORITY THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, THE PROFESSIONAL SCHOLARS AND HOW THEY EXAMINED THIS, WOULD BE ON THEIR SIDE, BUT THERE IS AN ARGUMENT, WHICH IS NOT A FRIVOLOUS ARGUMENT, THAT THE PRESIDENT SHOULD BE REMOVED BY THE SENATE BY TWO-THIRDS WHILE HE IS STILL IN OFFICE.

BUT WHEN HE LEAVES OFFICE, THAT IS NOT SOMETHING THAT THE CONSTITUTION CONTEMPLATES THAT THE SENATE CAN DO.

BECAUSE THE WHOLE IMPEACHMENT PROCESS IS ABOUT REMOVAL AS OPPOSED TO DOING SOMETHING OTHER THAN REMOVAL.

>> Braude: BUT IT MAY NOT HAVE BEEN TESTED IN THE COURT, BUT AM I NOT RIGHT -- OBVIOUSLY, THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A PRESIDENT WHO HAS HAD AN IMPEACHMENT TRIAL AFTER HE HAS LEFT.

THERE HAVE BEEN OTHER FEDERAL OFFICE HOLDERS WHO HAVE HAD IMPEACHMENT TRIALS AFTER THEIR TERM OF OFFICE IS OVER.

IS THAT NOT A DISPOSITIVE BECAUSE THEY HAVEN'T BEEN LITIGATED?

>> IF YOU WANT TO TREAT HISTORY AS PRECEDENT, THAT IT HAS HAPPENED BEFORE, THEN YOU'RE RIGHT.

IN THE 19th CENTURY, THAT WAS A CASE, NOT A PRESIDENT, BUT A DIFFERENT OFFICER, A FEDERAL OFFICIAL, WAS CONVICTED AT TRIAL AFTER HE WAS NO LONGER IN OFFICE.

SO WE KNOW THAT THAT HAS HAPPENED BEFORE.

BUT EVEN AT THE TIME, THERE WAS FIERCE CONSTITUTIONAL DEBATE AMONG THE DIFFERENT PARTIES.

SO THAT MAY HAPPEN AGAIN, AND THAT IS ABOUT TO HAPPEN WITH DONALD TRUMP'S TRIAL IN THE SENATE.

>> Braude: I KNOW THE RULES OF A TRADITIONAL COURTROOM, WE'VE ALL LEARNED, DON'T APPLY HERE.

BUT ARE THINGS LIKE WE'VE LEARNED IN THE LAST COUPLE OF DAYS, DONALD TRUMP'S ATTEMPT TO REMOVE THE ACTING ATTORNEY-GENERAL AND HAVE HIM REPLACED BY SOMEBODY ELSE WHO WOULD PRESS HIS CAUSE, OR THE FACT THAT AT LEAST FIVE PEOPLE WHO ARE FACING FEDERAL CHARGES FOR THE RIOTING HAVE SAID THEY DID IT BECAUSE PRESIDENT TRUMP TOLD THEM TO DO IT, THAT IS ADMISSIBLE TESTIMONY, PARTICULARLY IN AN IMPEACHMENT TRIAL, AM I NOT RIGHT?

>> I THINK THAT COULD COME BEFORE THE SENATE.

BECAUSE IT GOES TO HOW THE PEOPLE ENGAGED IN THE RIOT HEARD WHAT THE PRESIDENT SAID, WHAT THEY HEARD.

BUT, OF COURSE, THE MAIN THING THAT IS OF IMPORTANCE IN THE TRIAL IS ALSO WHAT DONALD TRUMP INTENDED.

IT'S BOTH SIDES.

IT IS REALLY NOT JUST HOW THIS WAS HEARD, BUT HOW IT WAS INTENDED.

>> Braude: DO YOU FIND -- I KNOW, AGAIN, THE RULES OF THE COURTROOM DON'T APPLY.

DO YOU FIND IT WEIRD THAT VIRTUALLY EVERY SINGLE JUROR WERE WITNESSED TO THE UNDERLYING ACT IN WHICH THEY WERE INTENDED TO JUDGE?

DOES THAT NOT SEEM WEIRD TO SOMEBODY WHO DOES WHAT YOU DO FOR A LIVING?

>> IT IS CERTAINLY UNUSUAL THAT A PRESIDENT OR ANY OFFICIAL WOULD ENGAGE IN AN IMPEACHABLE ACT IN PLAIN VIEW IN FRONT OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

>> Braude: THEY'RE ALSO CONSIDERING BARRING THE PRESIDENT FROM RUNNING FOR FEDERAL OFFICE IN THE FUTURE UNDER THE 14th AMENDMENT.

I HAVE READ PROBABLY HALF THE MATERIAL I'VE SEEN SAYS HE MUST BE CONVICTED IN THE IMPEACHMENT TRIAL BEFORE THE SENATE TAKES A MAJORITY VOTE ON BARRING HIM FROM OFFICE.

AND THE OTHER HALF OF WHAT I'VE SAID IT IS NOT REQUIRED THAT HE BEEN CONVICTED BEFORE REACHING THAT 14th AMENDMENT ISSUE.

WHO IS RIGHT?

>> I THINK IT IS VERY CLEAR THAT HE MUST BE CONVICTED IN AN IMPEACHMENT TRIAL IN ORDER TO BE BARRED FROM OFFICE.

HOWEVER, THE OTHERS THAT YOU MAY BE TALKING ABOUT MAY BE REFERRING TO ANOTHER WAY OF BARRING DONALD TRUMP FROM HOLDING OFFICE IN THE FUTURE, WHICH IS NOT THE IMPEACHMENT TRIAL.

>> Braude: WHAT IS THAT?

>> THROUGH THE 14th AMENDMENT, SECTION 3, WHICH IS A DIFFERENT PROCESS, A DIFFERENT PROVISION OF THE CONSTITUTION, THAT DOESN'T COME INTO PLAY IN THE IMPEACHMENT TRIAL THAT WE'RE ABOUT TO SEE.

BUT IF, SAY, THERE IS AN ACQUITTAL, AND THEREFORE NO BARRING DONALD TRUMP FROM OFFICE AFTERWARDS, THEN THE CONGRESS CAN START THINKING ABOUT THE 14th AMENDMENT, SECTION 3, WHICH BASICALLY SAYS IF YOU HAVE ENGAGED IN AN INSURRECTION, A REBELLION, THEN YOU CAN NO LONGER HOLD FEDERAL OFFICE OR STATE OFFICE, ANY PUBLIC OFFICE.

>> Braude: BEFORE YOU LEAVE, YOU WROTE A PIECE ON JULY 9th IN "THE NEW YORKER," SEVERAL DAYS AFTER THIS SO-CALLED INSURRECTION, OBVIOUSLY WHILE PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS STILL IN OFFICE, ARGUING FOR IMPEACHMENT, HER ARGUMENT BEING HE'S GOT TO GO BECAUSE HE HAS 11 DAYS TO DO DAMAGE.

THOSE AREN'T YOUR WORDS, THOSE ARE MINE.

HE IS GONE.

DO YOU STILL BELIEVE THAT CONVICTIONS THE RIGHT THING FOR THE SENATE TO DO?

>> I DO BELIEVE THAT IF -- AND HERE ARE SOME IFs -- IF HE ENGAGED IN HIS ACTIONS WITH THE INTENT THAT HIS SUPPORTERS AND FOLLOWERS GO AND VIOLENTLY ATTACK THE CAPITOL IN ORDER TO END THE CERTIFICATION OF THE ELECTION, THAT PROCESS -- IF THAT IS THE CASE, IF THAT WAS HIS INTENT, URGING HIS SUPPORTERS TO FIGHT HARDER, THEN, YES, HE SHOULD BE CONVICTED OF THE CHARGE, WHICH IS INCITEMENT TO COMMIT VIOLENCE AGAINST THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

>> Braude: JEANNIE SUK GERSEN, THANKS, AS ALWAYS, FOR YOUR TIME.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Braude: WHEN TRUMP FIRST TOOK THE OATH OF OFFICE IN 2017, HE MADE A PROMISE TO THE NATION.

>> President Trump: THIS AMERICAN CARNAGE STOPS RIGHT HERE AND STOPS RIGHT NOW.

>> Braude: AND JUST UNDER FOUR YEARS LATER, AMERICAN CARNAGE IS EXACTLY WHAT WE SAW ON THE SAME STEPS WHERE THE PRESIDENT STOOD.

THE CULMINATION OF YEARS OF TRUMP'S STOKING DIVISION, EXCUSING SUPREME SUPREMACISTS, NEO-NAZIS, AND GETTING A PASS FROM MUCH OF THE NATION ALL THE WAY.

>> THIS IS DONALD TRUMP'S AMERICA.

WE WERE WARNED OVER AND OVER AND OVER ABOUT IT, AND WE IGNORED ALL OF THAT.

SO HERE WE ARE.

>> Braude: FRONTLINE PLAYED ITS FILM, APTLY CALLED "TRUMP'S AMERICAN CARNAGE," AND TRACES THE PATH FROM THE INAUGURAL SPEECH TO JANUARY 6th.

MICHAEL KIRK JOINS ME NOW.

>> THANK YOU, JIM.

I WISH WE WEREN'T WATCHING THE FILM WE ARE GOING TO WATCH TOMORROW NIGHT.

IT WAS AN UNBELIEVABLE SAGA THAT IT WAS OUR PRIVILEGE, BUT ALSO OUR RESPONSIBILITY TO SHOW.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, WHEN I'M WATCHING THIS, YOU TAKE US FROM THE INAUGURATION, AS I SAID -- ACTUALLY, YOU TAKE US A LITTLE BIT BEFORE.

THE MESSAGE TO ME QUITE CLEARLY, AND NOT JUST CHARLOTTESVILLE, IS THAT WE ALL SHOULD HAVE SEEN JANUARY 6th COMING.

IT WAS A NATURAL CULMINATION THAT TRUMP AND HIS SUPPORTERS WERE BUILDING TO, NO?

>> THE THING THAT HE DID FROM THE VERY BEGINNING, JIM, WAS HE FOUND THAT BASE, FROM ALEX JONES AND OTHER CONSPIRACY THEORISTS THAT WERE OUT THERE, THAT HE BROUGHT TO THE ELECTION, WHICH IS PARTLY WHY HE WON, AND IT IS THE BASE THAT HE FED IN ALL OF HIS ACTIONS, WHETHER I WAS THE TRAVEL BAN OR ALL OF THE OTHER THINGS THAT YOU SEE IN THE FILM.

AND, YES, IT WAS HAPPENING RIGHT BEFORE OUR EYES.

AND, MOST IMPORTANTLY, RIGHT BEFORE THE EYES OF THE REPUBLICAN ESTABLISHMENT, WHICH EITHER DIDN'T SEE IT OR DIDN'T WANT TO SEE IT.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, YOU ALSO REMINDED ME, WE NOW KNOW THAT THE RUBIOS AND THE CRUZES AND THE GRAHAMS ARE ALL ON THE TRUMP TRAIN.

YOU TAKE US BACK TO RIGHT AFTER DONALD TRUMP IN THE PRIMARY WAS SAVAGING ALL THREE OF THESE GUYS -- I LITERALLY HAD TO LAUGH, EVEN THOUGH IT'S NOT FUNNY -- ARE SAVAGING TRUMP.

YOU SAY THE MASOCHISM, AS A HUMAN STUDY -- WE ALL KNOW IN THE CRUZ SITUATION, NOT ONLY DID HE SAY THAT HIS WIFE WAS HORRIBLE LOOKING, BUT THAT HIS FATHER WAS INVOLVED IN THE ASSASSINATION OF J.F.K., AND YET HE IS BACK AND ON THE TRAIN.

>> PARTLY BECAUSE OF THE OUTRAGEOUSNESS, IT WAS HUMOROUS IN THE VERY BEGINNING.

YOU SEE THEM LAUGHING AS HE IS DESTROYING THEM AND CRUSHING THEM IN DEBATES AND EVERYTHING IN THE CAMPAIGN.

I THINK THEY MAKE A CALCULATION -- IN THE FILM WE PICK A CERTAIN TIME AND PLACE WHERE IT ACTUALLY HAPPENS -- THEY MAKE A CALCULATION THAT IF THEY'RE GOING TO SURVIVE IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY THAT HE HAS SEIZED, JUST LITERALLY TAKEN OVER, THAT THEY WANT TO STAY IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AND THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO GO ALONG.

AND THEY MORE THAN JUST GO ALONG, AND THEY HAVE, IN THE MOST RECENT WEEKS, HAVE JOINED IN THE LEADERSHIP.

>> Braude: KEEP IN MIND -- ACTUALLY FOR A BRIEF MINUTE, LINDSEY GRAHAM SAID COUNT ME OUT, BUT IT LASTED ABOUT A MINUTE AND A HALF ON JANUARY 6th.

TO TALK ABOUT THE STARK DIVIDE, WHAT DID IT FOR ME IN YOUR FILM WAS REHEARING THE WORDS OF THE LEAD IMPEACHMENT REPRESENTATIVE, THE CHAIR OF THE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE.

HERE IS ADAM SCHIFF IN HIS CLOSING ARGUMENT TO THE SENATE?

>> WHAT ARE THE ODDS IF LEFT IN OFFICE HE WILL CONTINUE TRYING TO CHEAT?

I WILL TELL YOU, 100%.

IF YOU HAVE FOUND HIM GUILTY, AND YOU DO NOT REMOVE HIM FROM OFFICE, HE WILL CONTINUE TRYING TO CHEAT IN THE ELECTION UNTIL HE SUCCEEDS.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, NOT ONLY -- IT'S ALMOST AS IF -- AND IT COMES HOME EVEN MORE POWERFULLY IN YOUR FILM -- IT'S AS IF REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS ARE IN PARALLEL UNIVERSES, AND NEVER THE TWAIN SHALL MEET THROUGH THESE FOUR YEARS, NO?

>> IT IS REMARKABLE, ACTUALLY, TO WATCH IT HAPPEN.

IN THE VERY END -- YOU WATCH IN THE FILM THE ARK OF MIKE PENCE, THE ARK OF MITCH McCONNELL, AND FINALLY, FINALLY, ON JANUARY 6th, THAT VERY DAY,ç THEY BOTH BREAK WITH TRUMP, AND TRUMP IMMEDIATELY ISSUES A TEXT MESSAGE, A TWEET, THAT BASICALLY SAYS GET MIKE PENCE.

THE THING THEY WORRIED THE MOST ABOUT HAPPENING THEN HAPPENS TO THEM AT THE HANDS OF PEOPLE RUSHING INTO THE CAPITOL BUILDING.

IT IS LIKE HE DELIVERED ON THE BIGGEST THREAT OF THEM ALL.

IT IS ALMOST, IN A FUNNY WAY, TO WATCH ADAM SCHIFF, FOR ME, IS LIKE THIS FILM IS A PRIMER FOR WHAT IS COMING TO US ON FEBRUARY 8th, WHEN WE WATCH PEOPLE SIT IN CONGRESS AND WE WONDER WHERE ARE THOSE REPUBLICANS GOING TO BE NOW, IF THEY GET THE EVIDENCE THAT WE'RE PRESENTING TOMORROW NIGHT?

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, IT'S FUNNY.

YOU TAKE A LOOK AHEAD TO FEBRUARY 8th.

I WATCH YOUR FILM AND I TAKE A LOOK TO THE FUTURE WELL-BEYOND THAT.

YOU ALMOST COULD HAVE PLAYED "DON'T STOP BELIEVING" FROM THE SOPRANOS.

WILL THIS MOVEMENT, TO USE DONALD TRUMP'S WORDS, WILL THIS EXTREMISM SURVIVE THE TRUMP PRESIDENCY?

IT SEEMS TO ME WHILE TRUMP WAS THE RING LEADER, IT HAS TAKEN ON A LIFE OF ITS OWN THROUGH THESE YEARS.

>> OBVIOUSLY WHAT HE DID WAS HE NURTURED, HE CREATED -- HE DISCOVERED, CREATED, NURTURED AND FED AND THEN DELIVERED A GROUP OF PEOPLE INTO THE AMERICAN POLITICAL BLOODSTREAM THAT HADN'T REALLY BEEN THERE IN QUITE THE SAME WAY BEFORE.

AND THEY WENT MUCH FURTHER THAN ANYBODY HAS EVER GONE IN HISTORY.

WILL THEY CONTINUE TO DO THAT?

WILL THE POLICE -- THE THINGS THAT WE'RE LOOKING AT THE MIDDLE EAST AS PART OF THE POST-9/11 MOMENTS, WILL THOSE SATELLITES BE CREAKDCRANKED IN ANOTHER DIRECTION, AND WILL THEY BE LOOKING FOR DOMESTIC TERRORISTS.

WHAT CIVIL LIBERTIES THERE BE ADVOCATED IN THE PROCESS.

THAT'S NOT JUST IN THE DISTANT FUTURE, THAT'S IN OUR MEDIUM FUTURE, JIM.

>> Braude: ANOTHER INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT FILM.

GRRGSES,CONGRATULATIONS, MICHAEL.

YOU CAN WATCH IT TOMORROW NIGHT AT 10:00 HERE AT GBH 2.

THAT'S IT FOR US TONIGHT.

STAY TUNED FOR A SERIES OF SPECIAL PRESENTATIONS THIS WEEK IN CONJUNCTION WITH "THE BOSTON GLOBE."

THE STATE OF RACE, FIRST UP, HOST DAN LOTHIAN AND HIS PANELISTS EXPLORE THE INEQUITIES MADE FAR WORSE IN BLACK COMMUNITIES.

AND THE STATE OF RACE WILL HOST AN ONLINE FORUM.

FOR NOW, THANKS FOR WATCHING.

PLEASE STAY SAFE.