♪♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> NOTHING REPLACES THE PRESENCE OF YOUR MOTHER.

>> NOBLE LAUREATE NARGES MOHAMMADI JAILED AND STILL FIGHTING FOR WOMEN'S RIGHTS IN IRAN, AT GREAT COST TO HERSELF AND HER FAMILY.

I SPEAK WITH HER DAUGHTER, KIANA.

>>> THEN.

>> YOU DON'T ESCAPE TRAUMA BY IGNORING IT, YOU ESCAPE TRAUMA BY CONFRONTING IT.

>> "ORIGIN", A MOVIE LIKE NO OTHER, DIRECTOR AVA DuVERNAY TAKES A DEEP DIVE INTO THE ORIGINS OF RACISM, AMERICA'S ORIGINAL SIN.

AND VETERAN COLUMNIST THOMAS FRIEDMAN TELLS WALTER ISAACSON WHY BENJAMIN NETANYAHU'S POLITICS COULD HURT ISRAEL AND JOE BIDEN'S PRESIDENCY.

♪♪ >>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR, THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS, MARK J. BLECHNER, THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION, SETON J. MELVIN, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON, 61 WOMEN IN IRAN'S NOTORIOUS EVIN PRISON, PROTESTING A WAVE OF EXECUTIONS LINKED TO NATIONWIDE DEMONSTRATIONS THAT ERUPTED AFTER THE DEATH IN CUSTODY OF MAHSA AMINI IN 2022.

JUST THIS WEEK, IRANIAN AUTHORITIES HANGED A 23-YEAR-OLD MAN WHO REPORTEDLY HAD A MENTAL HEALTH CONDITION.

MOHAMMADI WON THE NOBLE PRIZE FOR HER WORK FIGHTING THE OPPRESSION OF WOMEN.

SHE SPENT MOST OF THE PAST TWO DECADES IN JAIL.

THE COURT JUST ADDED ANOTHER 15 MONTHS TO HER SENTENCE, FOR QUOTE, SPREADING PROPAGANDA WHILE IN PRISON.

THAT'S ACCORDING TO HER FAMILY.

AND YET STILL SHE WON'T BE SILENCED.

TODAY CNN IS PUBLISHING A NEW LETTER FROM MOHAMMADI CALLING ON U.N.

MEMBER STATES TO DECLARE GENDER APARTHEID A CRIME.

IN A MOMENT I'LL SPEAK TO HER TEENAGE DAUGHTER KIANA, FIRST, CORRESPONDENT JOMANA KARADSHEH IS COVERING.

YOU HAVE BEEN COVERING NARGES MOHAMMADI, YOU GOT ONE OF THE FIRST EXCHANGES WITH HER IN PRISON.

PEOPLE ARE GOING TO THINK IT'S, YOU KNOW, EXPLAIN TO PEOPLE HOW SHE'S JUST GETTING MORE AND MORE PUNISHMENT AND YET THEY KEEP AT IT, AND NOW SHE'S ON A HUNGER STRIKE.

>> IT'S TRULY REMARKABLE WHAT YOU SEE HAPPENING TODAY.

THE ANNOUNCEMENT OF THE HUNGER STRIKE.

YOU'VE ALSO GOT THIS LETTER SHE'S SENDING TO THE U.N. SECRETARY GENERAL, AN OP-ED TO CNN.

IT IS EXACTLY FOR THESE SORTS OF ACTS THAT SHE IS GETTING PUNISHED TIME AND TIME AGAIN.

SHE HAS A TOTAL SENTENCE NOW OF MORE THAN 12 YEARS, AND JUST IN THE PAST FEW YEARS, WHILE BEHIND BARS SHE HAS BEEN CONVICTED AND SENTENCED THREE MORE TIMES FOR ACTS LIKE THIS ACCUSED OF PROPAGANDA AGAINST THE STATE.

THIS IS A WOMAN WHO IS DETERMINED THAT NOT EVEN THE DARKEST CELLS OF EVIN HAVE SILENCED HER, AND IT IS, YOU KNOW, COMING AT A HUGE COST FOR HER AND HER FAMILY.

SHE HAS BEEN BANNED FROM EVEN HEARING HER CHILDREN'S VOICE FOR THE LAST TWO YEARS ALMOST.

>> I KNOW, THEY CAN'T TALK TO HER ON THE PHONE.

WE'LL HEAR MORE OF THAT WHEN I TALK TO KIANA, HER DAUGHTER, 17-YEAR-OLD, AND THEY'RE EXILED IN FRANCE.

IT'S A REALLY DESPERATE SITUATION.

A LOT OF THIS AND THE EXTRA PUNISHMENT AND THE EXTRA ATTENTION TO PEOPLE LIKE NARGES WHO WON THE LATEST NOBEL, 2023, IS BECAUSE OF THE HUGE SUPPORT FOR THE WOMAN LIFE FREEDOM PROTESTS AND ALL THAT THAT SPILLED ON TO THE STREETS AFTER MAHSA AMINI'S DEATH.

WHERE IS THAT?

WHERE IS THE MOMENTUM?

WHERE IS, YOU KNOW, THIS PROTEST MOVEMENT RIGHT NOW BECAUSE THE AUTHORITIES HAVE PRETTY MUCH SQUELCHED IT.

>> AS YOU KNOW WELL, THOSE WERE UNPRECEDENTED PROTESTS IN 2022, SPREAD LIKE WILDFIRE ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND THE REGIME USED EVERY IT'S GOT TO SUPPRESS THE PROTESTS, VIOLENCE, ACCORDING TO THE UNITED NATIONS, MORE THAN 500 PROTESTERS KILLED IN THAT BRUTAL CRACKDOWN AND WHAT WE SAW HAPPEN, CHRISTIANE, AS YOU KNOW, THE REGIME ACCUSED BY HUMAN RIGHTS ORGANIZATIONS OF USING THE JUDICIAL SYSTEM, USING WHAT WAS DESCRIBED AS THE SHAM AND SHOW TRIALS AND THE DEATH PENALTY AS A TOOL TO SUPPRESS THE PROTESTS AND TO CRUSH THEM, AND THAT ULTIMATELY SEEMED TO HAVE WORKED.

SO WHAT YOU HAVE RIGHT NOW IS THIS PROTEST MOVEMENT.

IT'S NOT PROTESTS ON THE STREETS.

YOU HAVE THE EVERY DAY ACTS OF DEFIANCE THAT ARE STILL GOING ON, WHETHER IT IS THE WOMEN BEHIND BARS IN PRISON AS WE'RE SEEING, IN EVIN PRISON OR WOMEN OUT ON THE STREETS STILL REFUSE TO GO WEAR THE MANDATORY HI JAB AND FACING PUNISHMENT.

WHEN YOU SPEAK TO PEOPLE, ACTIVISTS IN THE COUNTRY, THEY SAY THAT IT'S NOT A MATTER OF IF, IT IS WHEN PROTESTS WILL ERUPT AGAIN IN THE COUNTRY.

>> IN THE MEANTIME, MENTIONING EXECUTIONS RELATED, SO THIS 23-YEAR-OLD WHO APPARENTLY HAS SOME MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES, HAS BEEN EXECUTED.

WHY, WHAT REASON DID THE AUTHORITIES GIVE FOR THAT?

>> I MEAN, IT WAS VERY SURPRISING.

A COUPLE OF NIGHTS AGO, THE NEWS STARTED SPREADING WHEN HIS LAWYER ANNOUNCED THAT HE HAD RECEIVED NOTIFICATION THAT THE 23-YEAR-OLD WHO WAS ACCUSED OF RUNNING OVER AND KILLING A POLICE OFFICER DURING THE PROTESTS, AND THE LAWYER ANNOUNCED THAT HE WAS ABOUT TO GET EXECUTED.

IT WAS QUITE SURPRISING BECAUSE THEY WERE UNDER THE IMPRESSION THAT THE APPEALS PROCESS HADN'T BEEN EXHAUSTED YET, THAT THERE WAS STILL MORE TO GO, BUT THEN THE REGIME CARRIED OUT THIS EXECUTION.

AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL, CHRISTIANE HAD RAISED SERIOUS ISSUES WITH HIS TRIAL, WITH HIS SITUATION, OF COURSE HAVING MENTAL DISABILITIES.

INTERNATIONAL LAW PROHIBITS THE USE OF THE DEATH PENALTY AGAINST PEOPLE WITH MENTAL DISABILITIES BUT ALSO THE FACT THAT HE WAS ONE OF THE MANY PROTESTERS WHO WERE ROUNDED UP AFTER THESE PROTESTS AND THEY WERE PUT ON WHAT WAS DESCRIBED AS THESE SHOW TRIALS, UNFAIR TRIALS WHERE YOU HAD PROTESTERS CONVICTED USING WHAT RIGHTS GROUPS SAY WERE CONFESSIONS THAT WERE EXTRACTED UNDER TORTURE.

AND MOHAMMED GOBATLU, THE LATEST TO HAVE BEEN EXECUTED OVER THE PAST YEAR OR SO.

WE HAVE SEEN EIGHT PROTESTERS WHO HAVE BEEN EXECUTED.

THE FEAR IS THERE ARE MANY MORE.

WHAT WE'RE SEEING NOW IS THIS REVIVAL, THIS CALL TO STOP EXECUTIONS IN IRAN WHERE YOU HAVE SO MANY HIGH PROFILE FIGURES INCLUDING NARGES MOHAMMADI AND OTHERS.

>> IT'S DRAMATIC AND HER DAUGHTER WHO I SAID WE'RE GOING TO HEAR FROM IN A MOMENT HAS ALSO SENT A STATEMENT TO US.

AND SHE'S PUBLISHED IT.

THE IRANIAN PEOPLE ARE AGAINST EXECUTIONS AND AFTER THE ANNOUNCEMENT OF THE HUNGER STRIKE BY IMPRISONED WOMEN, A POWERFUL DOMESTIC AND INTERNATIONAL MOVEMENT HAS EMERGED IN SUPPORT OF THEM.

I HOPE NO GIRL LIKE THE ONE IN MY MOTHER'S ARMS BECOMES AN ORPHAN DUE TO HER FATHER'S EXECUTION AND NO ONE IS IN PRISON FOR OPPOSING EXECUTIONS AND THERE WILL BE NO AUTHORITARIAN REGIME IN THE WORLD.

IT'S A BIG TASK FOR A 17-YEAR-OLD, AND SHE IS ABOUT TO COME OUT AND, YOU KNOW, SHE TALKED TO YOU BRIEFLY AT THE OSLO AND WE'LL TALK ABOUT THAT.

BUT SHE'S ABOUT TO, YOU KNOW, TALK ABOUT, AGAIN, HER MOTHER'S LOBBYING AGAINST WHAT THEY CALL GENDER APARTHEID AND GENERALLY, YOU KNOW, FOR WOMEN'S RIGHTS.

I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU, YOU WENT TO OSLO, WHAT WAS IT LIKE, WHAT WAS THE ATMOSPHERE?

OBVIOUSLY NARGES WASN'T THERE, BUT YOU TALKED TO HER DAUGHTER.

HER AND THE TWIN BROTHER HAD TO ACCEPT, YOU KNOW, ON BEHALF OF THEIR MOM.

AND IT'S HARD TO BE THE DAUGHTER OF TWO ACTIVISTS.

>> WHAT THIS FAMILY HAS GONE THROUGH, CHRISTIANE, IT'S VERY HARD TO PUT IT INTO WORDS.

WE MET THEM FIRST LAST SUMMER BEFORE NARGES MOHAMMADI WAS AWARDED THE NOBEL PEACE PRIZE LIVING IN SELF-EXILE IN PARIS.

THEIR FATHER, ALSO A POLITICAL PRISONER, HE SPENT A TOTAL OF 14 YEARS.

>> PRISON ACTIVIST.

HE'S NOT IN PRISON RIGHT NOW.

>> HE WAS IN PRISON FOR 14 YEARS.

HE'S HAD TO BECOME FATHER AND MOTHER FOR HIS CHILDREN.

THE CHILDREN ARE NO LONGER ABLE TO SPEAK FARSI.

NOW THEY SPEAK FRENCH.

THAT HAS BECOME THEIR LANGUAGE, AND ALSO, YOU KNOW, YOU SPEAK TO THEM, AND YOU FEEL THAT THERE'S THIS -- IT'S MIXED EMOTIONS, RIGHT, THEY WANT TO FEEL PROUD, THEY WANT TO SUPPORT THEIR MOM, BUT THEY MISS HER, AND THEY WANT HER TO BE THERE WITH THEM.

AND IT'S JUST VERY VERY HARD WHAT THIS FAMILY IS GOING THROUGH, BUT QUITE RESILIENT, I MEAN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT CHILDREN THE LAST TIME THEY SAW THEIR MOTHER.

THEY WERE NOT YET NINE.

I REMEMBER SPEAKING WITH ALI, KIANA'S TWIN BROTHER.

THE LAST TIME THEY SAW HER, SHE MADE THEM BREAKFAST, SHE SENT THEM TO SCHOOL.

WHEN THEY CAME BACK, SHE WAS GONE.

THEY HAVEN'T SEEN HER SINCE.

>> IT'S THE PERSONAL COST OF THE HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVISM.

WE ARE GOING TO BE HEARING FROM KIANA, A CONVERSATION WITH NARGES MOHAMMADI'S DAUGHTER.

SHE JOINED ME FROM PARIS AFTER HER MOTHER ANNOUNCED SHE WOULD BE GOING ON A HUNGER STRIKE.

>> KIANA RAHMANI, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

I WANT TO START BY ASKING YOU ABOUT YOUR MOTHER AND WHEN YOU LAST SAW HER, WHEN YOU LAST TALKED TO HER.

>> Translator: AND HELLO TO YOU.

I'M VERY HAPPY TO MEET YOU.

THE LAST TIME I SAW MY MOTHER WAS WHEN I WAS 9 YEARS OLD, WHICH WAS IN 2015.

THAT WAS THE LAST TIME I SAW HER.

SO IT HAS BEEN ABOUT EIGHT YEARS THAT I HAVE NOT PHYSICALLY BEEN IN HER PRESENCE.

AND IT'S BEEN TWO YEARS SINCE I LAST HEARD ANYTHING FROM HER.

PHONE CALLS HAVE BEEN ABSOLUTELY BLOCKED OFFICIALLY FOR QUITE A WHILE.

>> SO, KIANA, LAST MONTH IN DECEMBER, THE IRANIAN AUTHORITIES ADDED MORE MONTHS TO HER SENTENCE.

APPARENTLY 15 MORE MONTHS.

WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS?

IS IT BECAUSE OF THE NOBEL PRIZE?

>> Translator: YES, THEY KEEP ON ADDING THESE EXTRA MONTHS OF SENTENCE AS YOU SAY.

MY MOTHER HAS BEEN SENTENCED TO THESE FURTHER 15 MONTHS AFTER SHE RECEIVED THE NOBEL PEACE PRIZE BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT NOW SEES HER AS EVEN MORE OF A THREAT.

THEY ARE FINDING NEW WAYS TO SILENCE HER AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE AND TO ISOLATE HER FROM ALL CONTACT WITH THE OUTSIDE WORLD.

>> CLEARLY SHE'S BEING PUNISHED SINCE WINNING THE NOBEL PRIZE, SOMETHING THAT'S NORMALLY A GREAT HONOR FOR A COUNTRY, BUT SHE'S CLEARLY BEING PUNISHED FOR HAVING NOT JUST WON THE NOBEL PRIZE, BUT IN OSLO, YOU AND YOUR TWIN BROTHER ACCEPTED ON HER BEHALF, AND YOU READ A LETTER THAT SHE HAD MANAGED TO GET OUT OF PRISON.

HERE'S A BIT.

THIS IS YOUR MOTHER.

I WRITE THIS MESSAGE FROM BEHIND THE HIGH, COLD WALLS OF A PRISON.

THE IRANIAN PEOPLE WITH PERSEVERANCE WILL OVERCOME REPRESSION AND AUTHORITARIANISM.

HAVE NO DOUBT, THAT IS CERTAIN.

DO YOU SHARE HER CERTAINTY?

AND WHAT DID YOU FEEL WHEN SHE WON THAT NOBEL PRIZE?

>> Translator: I THINK THAT IT SHOULD NOT REALLY HAVE BEEN ME OR MY BROTHER OR MY FAMILY, ANY OF US TO GO TO OSLO TO RECEIVE THIS PRIZE.

IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN MY MOTHER BECAUSE IT WAS HER WHO WON THE NOBEL PEACE PRIZE.

IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN HANDED TO HER.

IT WAS FOR HER TO ATTEND ALL OF THESE EVENTS.

BUT THEY DID NOT ALLOW HER TO.

SO WE WENT ON HER BEHALF.

OBVIOUSLY I WAS VERY PROUD TO READ THE LETTER THAT SHE WROTE, AND TO HAVE RECEIVED THE PRIZE IN HER PLACE, BUT I'M ALSO VERY SAD BECAUSE IT REALLY SHOULD HAVE BEEN HER THERE AND NOT ME.

AND PERSONALLY, I'M CERTAIN THAT ONE DAY WE WILL HAVE FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY IN IRAN.

PERHAPS NOT NOW, MAYBE NOT IN A MONTH OR A YEAR, BUT EVENTUALLY WE WILL SUCCEED.

BUT IN ORDER TO GET THERE, FIRSTLY, WE HAVE TO RESPECT WOMEN'S RIGHT ASKS THIS IS WHAT MY MOTHER IS FIGHTING FOR BECAUSE IRAN MUST RESPECT WOMEN'S RIGHTS.

WHAT MY MOTHER WANTS WHAT SHE'S ASKING FOR WHEN WOMEN ARE TREATED BADLY IN OUR COUNTRY, IN IRAN, IT SHOULD BE CRIMINALIZED.

WE NEED TO GIVE WOMEN MORE FREEDOM AND MORE RIGHTS IN IRAN BUT ALSO THE MIDDLE EAST AS A WHOLE.

THIS WOULD ALREADY BE A GOOD START, TO RESPECT THE RIGHTS OF WOMEN AND CRIMINALIZE THE GOVERNMENT'S ACTIONS.

>> SO YOUR MOTHER, INSTEAD OF BEING QUIET HAS DECIDED TO WRITE AGAIN, AND SHE HAS WRITTEN A LETTER TO THE UNITED NATIONS TO THE SECRETARY GENERAL TO SAY IT IS TIME TO DECLARE GENDER APARTHEID A CRIME.

SHE'S TALKING SPECIFICALLY ABOUT IRAN.

SHE'S TALKING ABOUT AFGHANISTAN.

SHE SAYS THE IRANIAN REGIME SYSTEMATICALLY AND PURPOSEFULLY HAVE ADVANCED THE SUB YOU GAS STATION -- SUBJUGATION OF WOMEN AND GIRLS AND ALL OTHERS THROUGH THE USE OF INSTRUMENTS AND POWER OF THE STATE.

THE CONTROL OF WOMEN IS BEING USED AS A TOOL TO EXPAND TYRANNY AND OPPRESSION THROUGHOUT SOCIETY, EXPLOITING RELIGION AS A COVER FOR DESPOTISM AND POWER.

JUST AS THE WORLD CONDEMNS SOUTH AFRICAN APARTHEID, IT'S TIME TO CONDEMN GENDER APARTHEID.

SHE'S STILL BEING BRAVE AND SHE'S STILL SPEAKING OUT.

HOW DO YOU THINK THE IRANIAN REGIME IS GOING TO REACT?

>> Translator: THEY ALWAYS REACT IN THE SAME WAY, AND AS LONG AS THEIR ACTS ARE MET WITH NO CONSEQUENCE, AS LONG AS WE DON'T CRIMINALIZE THESE ACTIONS, THEY WILL CONTINUE TO DO WHAT THEY WANT WITHOUT BEING PUNISHED BY THE LAW.

AND SO OBVIOUSLY, THE MOMENT MY MOTHER WRITES A LETTER, THEY JUST ADD MORE TIME TO HER SENTENCE.

THEY TRY AND PUT PRESSURE ON HER TO SILENCE HER.

THAT IS WHY MY MOTHER WROTE TO THE UNITED NATIONS SO THAT GENDER APARTHEID CAN BE CLASSIFIED AS A CRIME, AND THEN WE CAN FINALLY, WE WOMEN CAN LIVE FREELY IN IRAN.

>> KIANA, I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT YOUR PERSONAL FEELINGS.

YOU'RE OBVIOUSLY VERY PROUD OF YOUR MOTHER, BUT YOU'RE A TEENAGER, AND I'VE HEARD YOU SAY I WISH SHE HAD BEEN AROUND FOR BIRTHDAYS, FOR HOLIDAYS, TO HELP ME THROUGH MY TEENAGE YEARS.

YOU'VE ALSO QUESTIONED YOUR PARENTS' DECISION TO HAVE CHILDREN WHEN ACTIVISM REMAINS THEIR PRIORITY AT ALL COSTS.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT.

>> Translator: TO BE THE CHILDREN OF TWO ACTIVISTS IS QUITE COMPLEX.

WE DID NOT HAVE A FOLLOW CHILDHOOD BUT I DO WANT TO SAY ALL OUR FAMILY, WHETHER MY MOTHER'S SIDE OF THE FAMILY OR MY FATHER'S, THEY MADE SURE WE HAD SOME KIND OF NORMALITY AND A HAPPY CHILDHOOD, AND THEY SUCCEEDED, AS I ONLY HAVE GOOD MEMORIES OF MY CHILDHOOD.

BUT GROWING UP IN A FAMILY LIKE OURS WAS ABOUT LEARNING TO STAND UP FOR CAUSES LIKE DEMOCRACY AND WOMEN'S RIGHTS, THAT THEY WERE IMPORTANT AND WORTH SACRIFICING ONE'S LIFE FOR.

OBVIOUSLY WITH THE LITTLE DAY-TO-DAY THINGS, I WOULD HAVE REALLY LIKED MY MOTHER TO BE HERE, TO SHOW ME HOW TO PUT ON MAKEUP, TEENAGER THINGS LIKE THAT.

SO IT IS HARD TO LIVE WITHOUT HER BECAUSE NOTHING REPLACES THE PRESENCE OF YOUR MOTHER.

BUT I'M STILL VERY PROUD OF HER, AND I'M VERY HAPPY THAT SHE CHOSE TO FIGHT FOR WOMEN'S RIGHTS IN IRAN.

AND THAT SHE HAS DEDICATED HER LIFE TO THIS.

IT IS AN HONOR TO BE HER DAUGHTER BECAUSE I ADMIRE HER A LOT.

I FIND IT VERY MOVING TO FIGHT FOR THIS CAUSE.

AND THAT IT IS WORTH FIGHTING FOR.

>> KIANA, DO YOU THINK YOU AND YOUR BROTHER WILL SEE YOUR MOTHER AGAIN?

>> Translator: RIGHT NOW WE ARE TRYING TO LAUNCH A CAMPAIGN TO FREE NARGES, MEANING WE WANT NARGES MOHAMMADI TO BE RELEASED SO SHE IS FREE.

PERSONALLY, I HOPE SHE IS RELEASED, AND I DO THINK IT WILL HAPPEN.

I HAVE TO TRY AND BELIEVE IT WITH ALL MY HEART.

TO SEE HER ONE DAY PHYSICALLY IN FRONT OF ME, SOMETIMES I DO GET PESSIMISTIC ABOUT THAT.

IT FEELS IMPOSSIBLE AT TIMES, BUT I HAVE TO HOPE, SO I HOPE TO SEE MY MOTHER AT LEAST ONCE AGAIN IN MY LIFE.

I CAN'T KNOW THIS, BUT I DO HAVE BE RELEASED.

AND I THINK IF WE ALL WORK TOGETHER THERE IS A CHANCE THAT SHE WILL ONE DAY BE FREE.

>> KIANA RAHMANI, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR BEING WITH US, AND WE WISH YOU GOOD LUCK.

>> Translator: THANK YOU SO MUCH.

THAT IS VERY KIND.

>>> AND DURING MY LAST INTERVIEW WITH IRANIAN FOREIGN MINISTER, I ASKED HIM ABOUT WOMEN'S RIGHTS.

HERE'S WHAT HE TOLD ME ABOUT A YEAR AGO.

>> Translator: THERE ARE STANDARDS AND RULES AND REGULATIONS IN EVERY COUNTRY.

AND THE WOMEN HAVE AN IMPORTANT ROLE IN IRAN, AND THEY GAINED THAT ROLE AFTER THE VICTORY OF THE ISLAMIC REVOLUTION IN IRAN.

TODAY THE OUTSIDE NETWORKS, THEY ARE TURNING THE ISSUE OF HIJAB AND HEAD SCARVES INTO A POLITICAL CRISIS.

WOMEN IRAN WITHIN RULES AND REGULATIONS ENJOY FREEDOMS.

>>> NOW TO THE WORLD OF FILM WHERE CONTROVERSY OVER APPARENT SNUBS TO GRETA GER BIG AND MARGOT ROBBIE.

OUR NEXT GUEST IS THE AWARD WINNING FILM MAKER, AVA DuVERNAY, AND SHE WENT OUTSIDE THE BIG STUDIO SYSTEM TO MAKE HER LATEST FILM "ORIGIN", AN ADAPTATION OF ISABEL WILKERSON'S BOOK CASTE, THE ORIGINS OF OUR DISCONTENT, IT'S A FILM ABOUT A BIG IDEA THAT CASTE, NOT JUST RACE IS THE REASON FOR AMERICA'S HIERARCHY AND SHE LINKS THAT TO NAZI GERMANY AND THE ENGLISH CASTE SYSTEM.

HERE'S A CLIP OF THE TRAILER.

>> I WANT TO BE IN THE STORY, REALLY INSIDE THE STORY.

TO BUILD A THESIS THAT SHOWS HOW ALL OF THIS IS LINKED.

>> I GOT TO BE HONEST WITH YOU, BEYOND.

I DON'T SEE IT.

>> YOU GO AND WRITE YOUR STORIES.

FOLKS NEED TO KNOW ABOUT THIS.

>> YOU'RE TRYING TO MAKE SENSE OF RACE, BUT YOUR THESIS IS FLAWED.

>> AVA DuVERNAY JOINS ME FROM LOS ANGELES.

AVA DuVERNAY, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> SO THIS IS AN AMAZING FILM FROM AN AMAZING BUT WHEN DID YOU FIRST PICK UP THE BOOK AND KNOW THAT THIS WAS PHENOMENAL AND THAT YOU WANTED TO TURN IT INTO A FILM.

>> I HAD HEARD ANT THE BOOK A COUPLE OF MONTHS BEFORE IT CAME OUT.

IT HIT IN THE SUMMER OF 2020, A COUPLE OF MONTHS AFTER THE MURDER OF GEORGE FLOYD AND SO READING IT DURING THAT TIME, I THINK I HAD A VERY HEIGHTENED RESPONSE TO IT.

I WAS VERY SENSITIVE TO THE THESIS THAT IT SET OUT TO SHARE, AND IMMEDIATELY THOUGHT THAT THIS WAS INFORMATION AND A LOT OF EMOTION IN THE BOOK THAT I WANTED TO PUT IN AN ACCESSIBLE FORM OF FILM.

>> SO I FOUND IT INTERESTING, AND I'M NOT SURE WHETHER THE BOOK DID THIS, BUT I FOUND IT REALLY INTERESTING THAT YOU STARTED YOUR FILM WITH THE MURDER OF TRAYVON MARTIN, THE KILLING OF TRAYVON MARTIN.

HE WAS THE YOUNG TEENAGER WHO WAS KILLED IN A SO-CALLED STAND YOUR GROUND SITUATION IN FLORIDA.

I'M GOING TO PLAY A CLIP OF, YOU KNOW, THE ACTRESS PLAYING ISABEL AROUND THIS ISSUE, AND THEN WE'LL TALK ABOUT IT.

>> I DON'T WRITE QUESTIONS.

I WRITE ANSWERS.

>> QUESTIONS LIKE WHAT?

>> LIKE WHY DOES A LATINO MAN DEPUTIZE HIMSELF TO STALK A BLACK BOY TO PROTECT AN ALL WHITE COMMUNITY?

WHAT IS THAT?

>> THE RACIST BIAS I WANT YOU TO EXPLORE.

>> WE CALL EVERYTHING RACISM.

WHAT DOES IT EVEN MEAN ANYMORE, IT'S THE DEFAULT.

>> SO I GUESS THAT'S THE KERNEL, ISN'T IT, WE CALL EVERYTHING RACISM, WHAT DO YOU MEAN, IT'S THE DEFAULT.

DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT, DO YOU AGREE WITH HER THESIS THAT NOT EVERYTHING CAN BE ATTRIBUTED ONLY TO RACISM.

>> I MEAN, I THINK THE THING THAT WAS FASCINATING TO ME ABOUT THE BOOK WAS THAT THIS IDEA THAT IT'S NOT EITHER OR, IT'S NOT RACISM OR CASTE, THEY ARE ONE IN THE SAME.

CASTE UNDER GIRDS, RACISM, SEXISM, ANTIPHOBIA, THE NOTION OF HUMAN HIERARCHY POWER AND STATUS IS ACTIVATED BY THE SENSE OF PUTTING ONE PERSON OVER ANOTHER FOR A SET OF RANDOM TRAITS.

THAT WAS A CATALYZING IDEA FOR ME.

WAS A REVELATORY NOTION THAT I REALLY WANTED TO EXPLORE AS A CURIOUS PERSON WHO'S INTERESTED IN HISTORY AND THE WORLD AROUND ME.

AND REALLY WHAT WE INVITE PEOPLE TO DO WHEN THEY WATCH THE PICTURE.

THERE ARE ELEMENTS OF IT THAT REALLY ALLOWED ME TO ORGANIZE MY THOUGHTS ABOUT MYSELF AND MY PLACE IN THE WORLD AND A NEW WAY.

>> AND TRAYVON'S KILLING AND PARTICULARLY THAT ANALYSIS, WHY DOES A LATINO MAN KILL A BLACK BOY TO PROTECT A WHITE COMMUNITY.

THAT HAS EVERYTHING LAYER POSSIBLE ON TOP OF IT.

IS THAT WHY YOU STARTED THE FILM LIKE THAT?

>> I BEGAN THE FILM WITH THE MOMENTS BEFORE TRAYVON MARTIN'S KILLING WHERE YOU ARE ABLE TO SEE WHO HE IS BEFORE HE IS IN A CONTEXT AND AN ASSAULT AND A STALKING BY HIS KILLER SO THAT WE CAN HUMANIZE HIM AND WE KNOW KNOW WHO HE WAS BEFORE THAT MOMENT.

I STARTED THE FILM THAT WAY BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT ISABEL WILKERSON TOLD ME STARTED HER JOURNEY TOWARDS REALLY THINKING ABOUT THE IDEA OF CASTE IN A CONTEMPORARY CONTEXT.

IN TELLING HER STORY, HER JOURNEY AS AN ARTIST AND AUTHOR, I WANTED TO BEGIN AT THE BEGINNING.

>> AND THEN SHE HAS THIS HUGE IDEA, CASTE IS A HUGE IDEA THAT SHE DEVELOPS THROUGHOUT HER INVESTIGATIONS THROUGHOUT THIS BOOK.

IT TAKES HER TO INDIA, GERMANY, AND OBVIOUSLY AROUND THE UNITED STATES.

CAN YOU TRY FOR US TO, I MEAN, IT'S A BIG, BIG, BIG IDEA, BIG CONNECTIONS, WHAT WAS SHE SAYING, AND WHAT ARE YOU SAYING ABOUT THOSE THREE IN THIS FILM "ORIGIN" AND HER BOOK "CASTE."

>> THE BEAUTIFUL ACTRESS ANDREA TAYLOR PLAYS ISABEL WILKERSON AS SHE'S ON THE GLOBE TROTTING, THE CONNECTIVE TISSUES ACROSS THE CULTURES, COMMUNITIES, SOCIETIES OF OPPRESSED PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD AND ACROSS TIME.

I THINK THAT'S A PROVOCATIVE IDEA, AND AN IDEA THAT ALLOWS FOLKS WHO ARE INTERESTED IN ISSUES OF JUSTICE AND DIGNITY AND CIVILITY TO HAVE A DIFFERENT LANGUAGE TO BE ABLE TO KIND OF REACH AFLUENCY IN TALKING ABOUT THESE ISSUES AND THESE CHALLENGES, NOT IN PIECES BUT AS A UNIFIED FEELING, A UNIFIED STRUGGLE.

AND THAT IS WHAT PROPELLED ME.

THE EXPLORATION OF THAT.

THE EXPLORATION OF THAT CONNECTION, AND SO I WOULD NOT EVER SPEAK FOR ISABEL WILKERSON, SHE'S A PULITZER PRIZE WINNING AUTHOR AND A BIG BRAIN.

I'M A FILM MAKER.

BUT THE FILM ARE ALL OF MY AH-HA MOMENTS FROM READING THE BOOK, YOU KNOW, THINGS LIKE THE NAZI REGIME, YOU KNOW, SETTING MANY OF ITS PROTOCOLS BASED ON AMERICAN RACE LAWS, NOT HAVING EVER BEEN TAUGHT THAT AS AN AMERICAN IN THE AMERICAN SCHOOL SYSTEM.

MANY MOMENTS ABOUT THE DULLETT COMMUNITY IN INDIA THAT I HAD NO CONTEXT FOR, NO KNOWLEDGE OF.

THE FILM IS FOR THE CURIOUS, AND CERTAINLY IN THE UNITED STATES, WE HAVE A LOT TO BE CURIOUS ABOUT AND DON'T KNOW HARDLY ENOUGH ABOUT THIS STUFF.

>> MY BIG AH-HA MOMENT, ONE OF MANY IN TALKING TO ISABEL ABOUT HER BOOK AND WATCHING YOUR FILM AND IN OTHER REPORTS ON THAT IS THAT, HOW THE NAZI GOT SO MUCH OF THEIR IDEA FROM THE AMERICAN JIM CROW.

CAN YOU EXPLAIN BECAUSE YOU PORTRAY IT AS, YOU KNOW, SHE'S IN BERLIN, SHE GOES TO THE LIBRARY, AND SHE SEES A PICTURE OF A GROUP OF NAZIS DISCUSSING SOMETHING, AND SHE INVESTIGATES.

TELL US THAT BECAUSE IT REALLY IS INTERESTING.

>> IT'S PORTRAYED IN THE FILM, AND I THINK VERY MUCH IN THE WAY THAT I INTERPRETED ISABEL TELLING ME.

SHE WAS ON A RESEARCH TRIP IN BERLIN AND SHE WAS IN LIBRARIES AND SHE WAS, YOU KNOW, TRYING TO, YOU KNOW, REALLY LOOK AT THE WORK OF PEOPLE WHO HAD STUDIED CASTE BEFORE.

SHE DIDN'T COME UP WITH THIS IDEA.

OBVIOUSLY THIS IS A WELL RESEARCHED AND WELL PUBLISHED STUDIES OF THIS PHENOMENON AND THE WAY IT WORKS IN THE WORLD ACROSS TIME, BUT THERE WAS A PARTICULAR MOMENT IN HER STUDIES WHERE SHE WAS ABLE TO READ TRANSCRIPTS FROM A MEETING WHERE NAZI LAWYERS TALKED ABOUT HAVING GONE TO THE UNITED STATES AND THEY WERE REPORTING ON WHAT THEY FOUND.

I WAS ABLE TO READ THOSE TRANSCRIPTS AS WELL, AND IT'S SHOCKING THE WAY THAT AT ONE POINT IN THE MEETING THEY SAY, THIS IS TOO HARSH.

WE'LL NEVER BE ABLE TO GET AWAY WITH THIS LIKE THE AMERICANS HAVE BUT WE CAN DO THIS AND THIS, AND THEY CHERRY PICK.

IT'S ALL FROM A BLUEPRINT OF AMERICANS AND JIM CROW LAWS AND THE WAYS PEOPLE WERE KEPT APART, PARTICULARLY AROUND THE ISSUE OF INDOGMY.

IT'S FASCINATING INFORMATION I DID NOT KNOW.

>> FEW PEOPLE KNEW IT.

YOU ALSO DO SOMETHING IN THE FILM, YOU KNOW, SOME PEOPLE OBVIOUSLY HAVE PUSHED BACK AGAINST WILKERSON'S THEORY ON THIS.

AND YOU DEPICT SOME OF THE ARGUMENT, SOME OF THIS ARGUMENT BECAUSE IT'S SO SENSITIVE.

HERE'S A CLIP OF THAT.

>> I UNDERSTAND YOU'RE TRYING TO MAKE SENSE OF AMERICAN RACISM.

IT IS NOBLE.

BUT YOUR THESIS LINKING CASTE IN GERMANY WITH THE UNITED STATES IS FLAWED.

>> MAYBE IT'S NOT EXACTLY THE SAME, BUT YOUR THESIS HAS STRUCTURAL SIMILARITIES, CERTAINLY GIVES CONTEXT FOR A FRAMEWORK.

>> RIGHT, BUT A FRAME WORK IS NOT A BOOK, MY FRIENDS.

SHE IS TRYING TO CONNECT THE UNITED STATES TO GERMANY, BUT IT DOESN'T FIT.

>> IT'S SO INTERESTING THAT, YOU KNOW, SOME HAVE SAID, YEAH, SUBJUGATION IS NOT EXTERMINATION.

WHERE DO YOU COME DOWN YOURSELF ON THAT?

THE PARALLEL?

>> YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I LOVED ABOUT THE PROCESS OF BEING ABLE TO MAKE A FILM ABOUT HER WRITING THE BOOK IS THAT I WAS ABLE TO INCLUDE, YOU KNOW, SOME OF THE DIFFERENT CONTRASTING IDEAS ABOUT WHAT SHE'D WRITTEN, AND DIFFERENT NOTIONS OF, YOU KNOW, HOW PEOPLE SEE CASTE, AND IT'S A SENSITIVE TOPIC.

I MEAN, FOLKS ARE VERY MUCH, I FOUND, CLING TO THEIR OWN OPPRESSIONS, AND THERE IS SOMETHING THAT ONE MAY CALL AN OPPRESSION OLYMPICS THAT HAPPENS IN TERMS OF, YOU KNOW, MINE IS WORSE THAN YOURS OR MINE WAS LIKE THIS AND YOURS IS DIFFERENT.

I THINK THE FILM REALLY INVITES US TO THINK ABOUT THE WAYS IN WHICH THERE ARE CONNECTIONS, AND THE WAYS THAT WE CAN SEE EACH OTHER, YOU KNOW, SEE THROUGH THAT -- THOSE DIVISIONS AND GET TO A PLACE OF HUMAN DIGNITY AND COMMONALITY.

SO THAT SCENE IS ONE WHERE, YOU KNOW, IS THE START OF AN ARC, A BEGINNING, MIDDLE AND END IN THE NARRATIVE JOURNEY OF THE CHARACTER, AND HOPEFULLY FOLKS WILL WATCH THE FILM AND SEE WHERE IT GOES.

>> HOW DIFFICULT WAS IT FOR YOU TO MAKE THE FILM.

YOU TRIED TO TAKE IT TO A STUDIO.

THEY DIDN'T WANT TO MAKE IT ON YOUR TIME LINE.

YOU WERE QUITE EAGER TO MAKE IT QUICKER, AND THEN YOU GOT A WHOLE DIFFERENT REVENUE STREAM.

>> YEAH, YOU KNOW, WE COULD HAVE STILL BEEN PITCHING THIS MOVIE, YOU KNOW, IMAGINE THE PITCH MEETING AT THE STUDIOS, HI, I'M AVA DuVERNAY, I WANT TO MAKE A FILM ABOUT CASTE, THAT'S NOT GOING TO GET THEM HANDING OVER THEIR WALLETS AND CHECKBOOKS, AND SO, YOU KNOW, BUT FOR ME, THIS FILM WAS ABOUT A SUPERHERO.

THIS IS A WOMAN WHO BATTLED GREAT PERSONAL CHALLENGES AND TRAGEDY, AND THIS BOOK, HER CREATIVE EXPRESSION, HER PROCESS, HER PRACTICE OF RESEARCH, OF INTELLECTUAL PURSUIT ACTUALLY PULLED HER THROUGH DEEP GRIEF, DEEP SORROW AND GAVE US A BOOK THAT I'M NOT ASKING PEOPLE OR EXPECTING PEOPLE TO AGREE WITH, BUT YOU HOPE THAT PEOPLE WILL ENGAGE WITH AND I THINK THAT THIS IS A TIME, WHEN IS THERE EVER NOT A TIME WHEN WE ARE BEST SERVED BY COMING OUCH OUR CORNERS AND ACTUALLY ENGAGING WITH ONE ANOTHER AS OPPOSED TO THROWING ROCKS FROM AFAR.

THAT'S WHAT THE BOOK GAVE ME WAS A SET OF ORGANIZING PRINCIPLES TO THINK ABOUT MY IDENTITY, BY PLACE IN THE WORLD, IN A LARGER CONTEXT AND IN CONTEXT TO OTHER PEOPLE'S STRUGGLES, BUT I THINK THAT'S A WORTHWHILE ENDEAVOR.

>> I DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU CALL YOURSELF A HISTORIAN, BUT YOU ARE A HISTORIAN, YOUR FILMS HAVE BEEN ABOUT VERY CRUCIAL PARTS OF AMERICAN HISTORY, THE BLACK EXPERIENCE, YOU KNOW, THE OPPRESSION, THE SLAVERY AND ALL OF THAT, SELMA, WHEN THEY SEE US.

ALL OF THOSE ARE SO DRAMATIC.

YOU SAID IT YOURSELF, I THINK, HOW ON EARTH CAN I CREATE THIS IDEA THAT ISABEL WILKERSON INTO A FILM.

HOW COULD I ADAPT SUCH A HUGE THEORY INTO A FILM.

WAS IT DIFFICULT TO MAKE IT INTO A FILM, LIKE A FILM, FILM LIKE WE KNOW.

WHY DIDN'T YOU MAKE IT INTO A DOCUMENTARY LIKE 13, FOR INSTANCE?

>> I DON'T MAKE FILMS ABOUT, FOR ME, THE FILMS THAT I MAKE THAT FEATURE PARTS OF AFRICAN-AMERICAN HISTORY OR HIGHLIGHT THAT ARE ABOUT THE SURVIVAL AND THE JOY AND THE TRIUMPH OF A PEOPLE WHO HAVE OVERCOME SO MUCH.

SO THAT'S THE CORE OF WHAT I MAKE AND WHAT I AM FEELING AS I'M MAKING IT.

AND, YOU KNOW, I THINK YOU COULD PROBABLY ASK CHRISTOPHER NOLAN, WHY HE DIDN'T DO "OPPENHEIMER" AS A DOCUMENTARY, AND "KILLERS OF THE FLOWERS OF MOON" A DOCUMENTARY.

IT'S AN ARTISTIC CHOICE.

I WANTED TO EVOKE EMPATHY AS OPPOSED TO JUST CONVEY INFORMATION.

I USE DOCUMENTARY TO CONVEY INFORMATION.

I USE THE NARRATIVE FIRM TO STIR EMPATHY AND THAT WAS THE GOAL IN THIS ONE.

>> AND YOUR GOAL WAS TO GET IT OUT BEFORE THIS ELECTION, AND I ALSO READ THAT YOU ARE TRYING TO ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO GIVE MOVIE VOUCHERS TO YOUNG PEOPLE SO THEY ALSO, YOU KNOW, HAVE EMPATHY AND INFORMATION AND THEY GO WATCH "ORIGIN".

WHAT IS IT ABOUT THE TIMING OF IT NOW THAT WAS IMPORTANT TO YOU BEFORE THIS ELECTION?

WHY?

>> I THINK, YOU KNOW, THE ELECTION THAT WE ARE IN THE MIDST OF AN ELECTION YEAR IN THE UNITED STATES IS ONE WHERE WE NEED PEOPLE TO KIND OF SHAKE OFF ANY FATIGUE OR APATHY THAT WE'RE FEELING ABOUT WHERE WE ARE AS A COUNTRY, AND REALLY LEAN IN, ENGAGE, AND HAVE CRITICAL CONVERSATIONS ABOUT WHERE WE'RE GOING.

AND HOPEFULLY THIS WILL CONTRIBUTE TO THAT CONVERSATION.

>> SO HAS ISABEL SEEN THE FILM?

SHE MUST HAVE.

WHAT DOES SHE THINK OF IT?

>> YOU KNOW, SHE'S A VERY PRIVATE LADY, AND I PROMISED NOT TO SPEAK FOR HER.

BUT OBVIOUSLY WE HAVE HER PERMISSION TO PROCEED.

SO THE FILM IS OUT IN THE WORLD, IT OPENS ON FRIDAY ON 600 SCREENS HERE IN THE UNITED STATES AS AN INDEPENDENT FILM.

WE'RE VERY VERY PROUD OF IT.

>> AND I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU BECAUSE YOU DID IT, I MEAN, ON A BUDGET, RIGHT?

I THINK I READ $38 MILLION YOU RAISED.

THAT'S NOT A HUGE AMOUNT.

AND YOU WENT TO THREE DIFFERENT CONTINENTS?

>> YES, WE MADE IT INDEPENDENTLY.

WE'RE INDEPENDENT FILM MAKERS, WE'RE SCRAPPY, AND, YEAH, SOME PEOPLE HEAR $38 MILLION, AND SAY, WOW, THAT'S A LOT OF MONEY.

WHEN YOU PUT IT IN CONTRAST TO THE, YOU KNOW, THE FILMS THAT YOU HAVE HEARD ABOUT OVER THE PAST YEAR, "BARBIE" OR "OPPENHEIMER," IT'S ABOUT A THIRD THE SIZE OF THOSE.

WE'RE PROUD OF WHAT WE WERE ABLE TO DO ON A STHU STRING, IT SPEAKS TO THE TESTAMENT OF GRIT AND PASSION.

37 DAYS ON THREE CONTINENTS IS HOW WE MADE THIS PICTURE, OUT OF MY SMALL BLACK WOMAN-LED PRODUCTION COMPANY, SO ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE.

>> YEAH, IT CERTAINLY IS.

SO YOU MENTIONED THE OSCARS AND YOU MENTIONED SPECIFICALLY "BARBIE" AND THE OTHERS.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU MAKE OF THE CURRENT BREW HA HA OVER GRETA GERWIG, A FELLOW FEMALE DIRECTOR WHO HAD THE MOST BOX OFFICE SUCCESS, I THINK, THIS YEAR WITH "BARBIE", AND SHE DID NOT GET AN OSCAR NOMINATION.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF ALL OF THAT?

>> SHE DID GET AN OSCAR NOMINATION.

SHE'S NOMINATED IN THE SCREEN PLAY CATEGORY AND MARGOT ROBBIE IS NOMINATED AS A PRODUCER.

THE FILM HAS EIGHT OSCAR NOMINATIONS, SO I THINK EVERYONE'S GOING TO BE OKAY.

>> OKAY.

I'M GOING TO TAKE THAT AS YOUR ANSWER.

>> YES.

>> SHE JUST DIDN'T GET THE DIRECTOR NOMINATION.

JUST FINALLY, YOU HAVE ISABEL SAYING IN THE MOVIE, YOU DON'T ESCAPE TRAUMA BY IGNORING IT, YOU ESCAPE TRAUMA BY CONFRONTING IT, I MEAN, THAT COULD BE YOUR RES ON, AS A FILM MAKER.

>> YES, I BELIEVE THAT IS MY CONTRIBUTION TO THE FILM AS A SCREEN WRITER.

THAT'S WHAT I TRULY BELIEVE, AND AS WE SHOW ISSUES OF HISTORICAL CHALLENGE, OPPRESSION, ADVERSITY, WE HAVE TO SHOW THOSE THINGS IN ORDER TO UNDERSTAND THE TRIUMPH AND TO FEEL THE SURVIVAL, AND IF YOU ARE SHOWING SURVIVAL, YOU HAVE TO SHOW WHAT'S BEEN OVERCOME, AND YOU HAVE TO WALK THROUGH THAT TRAUMA TO GET TO THE OTHER SIDE, AND I THINK THAT IS WHAT I'M HOPING TO SHARE IN THIS AMONG MANY OTHER THINGS.

>> THANK YOU FOR LEADING US ON THAT WALK.

AVA DuVERNAY, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>>> AND YOU CAN WATCH "ORIGIN" IN CINEMAS ACROSS THE UNITED STATES, NOW AND OVER HERE ACROSS THE POND IN THE SPRING.

>>> NEXT, TO THE WAR IN GAZA, THE INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE IS EXPECTED TO DELIVER TOMORROW'S INTERIM RULING IN SOUTH AFRICA'S CASE, ACCUSING ISRAEL OF GENOCIDE.

IN A REBUTTAL, ISRAEL RELEASED 30 CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS WHICH IT SAYS SHOW EFFORTS TO MINIMIZE CIVILIAN DEATH.

MEANTIME, 2 OF 51 DEMOCRATIC SENATORS SUPPORT A MEASURE ENDORSING THE TWO-STATE SOLUTION ADDS PART OF A NATIONAL SECURITY PACKAGE THAT INCLUDES MILITARY AID TO ISRAEL.

WALTER ISAACSON SPOKE WITH "NEW YORK TIMES" COLUMNIST TOM FRIEDMAN ABOUT THE LATEST AND WHAT HE CALLS THE ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER'S FAILURE OF LEADERSHIP.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE, AND TOM FRIEDMAN, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> WALTER, GREAT TO BE WITH YOU.

>> YOU KNOW, ABOUT 40 YEARS AGO YOU WROTE FROM BEIRUT TO JERUSALEM, EVER SINCE THEN YOU HAVE BEEN GOING BACK TO THE MIDDLE EAST AFTER THE OCTOBER 7th ATTACK.

YOU WENT TO ISRAEL, YOU'VE BEEN TO SAUDI ARABIA AND THE UAE AND YOU'RE SAYING SOMETHING THAT MAKES MY HEAD SNAP A BIT, AND I WANT YOU TO EXPLAIN IT, WHICH IS NETANYAHU, BENJAMIN NETANYAHU IS THE WORST LEADER IN ISRAEL'S HISTORY, AND THEN YOU SAY NOT ONLY THAT, HE'S THE WORST LEADER IN JEWISH HISTORY.

EXPLAIN THAT TO ME.

WHY SO STRONG?

>> WELL, HE'S BEEN PRIME MINISTER, PRESIDED OVER THE WORST LOSS OF LIFE FOR JEWS SINCE THE HOLOCAUST, LET'S START THERE.

AND A LOT OF WHAT HAPPENED HERE IS A PRODUCT OF HIS ACTIONS IN SEVERAL WAYS, ONE IS THE WHOLE SECURITY STRUCTURE ON THE BORDER.

HE HAS BEEN PRIME MINISTER ALL THESE YEARS SO HE'S PARTLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT.

IT WAS A COMPLETE FAILURE.

SECONDLY, HIS STRATEGY WAS ACTUALLY TO DIVIDE THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY ON THE WEST BANK THAT HAS SUPPORTED THE OSLO PEACE PROCESS, AND THE HAMAS MILITIA IN GAZA.

AND TO DO THAT DELIBERATELY SO THAT PALESTINIANS WOULD NEVER BE UNITED TO BE ABLE TO BE A PARTNER IN ANY KIND OF PEACE PROCESS.

THAT WAS A DELIBERATE POLICY WHICH INCLUDED GETTING A BILLION DOLLARS TRANSFERRED FROM QATAR TO HAMAS, MONEY IT SIPHONED OFF EVENTUALLY TO BUILD THIS INCREDIBLE UNDERGROUND NETWORK AND MILITARY MACHINE.

AND MOST OF ALL, YOU KNOW, WE ARE AT A MOMENT, WALTER, WHERE IT'S JUST SO CLEAR THAT ISRAEL RIGHT NOW, IF IT HAD A LEADERSHIP READY TO ENGAGE -- AND IT WOULD HAVE TO BE A LONG-TERM PROCESS ON A TWO-STATE SOLUTION, IT WOULD ACTUALLY SOLVE THREE REALLY IMPORTANT PROBLEMS FOR ISRAEL.

ONE, ALTHOUGH ISRAEL WAS ATTACKED BY HAMAS VICIOUSLY TO START THIS WAR, IT SOMEHOW LOST THE GLOBAL NARRATIVE BECAUSE OF ITS RETALIATION AND THE MASSIVE LOSS OF LIFE OF PALESTINIANS.

SECONDLY, ISRAEL HAS NO PLAN FOR EXITING GAZA FOR THE MORNING AFTER.

WE'RE HAVING A PALESTINIAN PARTNER TO RULE GAZA SO ISRAEL DOESN'T HAVE TO DO IT FOREVER, AND LASTLY, ISRAEL FACES A REGIONAL ONSLAUGHT RIGHT NOW FROM IRAN AND ITS PROXIES, HAMAS, HEZBOLLAH, THE HOUTHIS, SHARED MILITIAS IN IRAQ.

THAT REGIONAL THREAT TO ISRAEL REQUIRES A REGIONAL ALLIANCE TO COUNTER, AND IT'S VERY HARD TO GET THE REGIONAL ALLIANCE WITHOUT THE CEMENT OF SOME KIND OF ISRAELI PALESTINIAN PEACE PROCESS.

FOR ALL OF THOSE REASONS, NETANYAHU HAS A LOT TO ANSWER FOR TODAY AND FOR JEWISH HISTORY.

>> WE TALK ABOUT THE PHRASE FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA AS IF IT'S MAYBE SAYING WE SHOULD GET RID OF NOT ONLY THE STATE OF ISRAEL BUT JEWS FROM THE REGION, AND I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE FIND THAT HORRIFYING, AND YET I'VE JUST HEARD NETANYAHU, AND HE'S BEEN ON THE SOCIAL MEDIA POSTING, X, SAYING THINGS THAT SEEM SLIGHTLY SIMILAR TO ME.

I THINK HE POSTED, I WILL NOT COMPROMISE ON FULL ISRAELI SECURITY OVER ALL OF THE TERRITORY WEST OF JORDAN, AND THIS IS CONTRARY TO A PALESTINIAN STATE.

IS THAT A MISTAKE AND IS THAT GOING TO TURN THE WORLD AGAINST ISRAEL AFTER THIS?

>> YOU KNOW, I DON'T THINK ANY ONE STATEMENT CAN DO IT, WALTER, BUT BASICALLY, YOU KNOW, WHAT'S DIFFERENT ABOUT THIS ISRAELI PALESTINIAN CONFLICT FROM PREVIOUS ONES, I WOULD ARGUE, IS THAT IT'S BEING DRIVEN BY THE WORST OF THE WORST ON BOTH SIDES.

IT'S ACTUALLY BEING DRIVEN BY THE FAR RIGHT.

WHO BIBI IS A CAPTIVE OF.

HE NEEDS THEM TO STAY IN POWER.

SO HE LOOKS LIKE HE'S DRIVING THE CAR, BUT HE'S ACTUALLY NOT.

HIS FAR RIGHT PARTNERS ARE DIRECTING HIM WHERE TO TURN RIGHT, WHERE TO TURN LEFT.

WHERE NOT TO TURN LEFT AND THE PALESTINIANS ARE BEING LED NOT BY ABUMAZAN, THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY THAT EMBRACED THE OSLO PEACE PROCESS BY HAMAS, WHICH IS DEDICATED TO ELIMINATING THE JEWISH STATE.

WHAT THE FAR RIGHT IN ISRAEL AND HAMAS HAVE IN COMMON IS SOMETHING TO WHICH YOU JUST ALLUDED, THEY BOTH WANT IT ALL FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA.

>> IN AN INTERVIEW WITH CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR ON MONDAY, YOUR OLD FRIEND, FORMER PRIME MINISTER OF THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY, SALAM FAYED SAID, AND I WANT TO QUOTE IT FOR YOU, THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY AS CURRENTLY CONSTITUTED CANNOT REALLY CONTINUE TO GOVERN AND CERTAINLY CANNOT ASSUME THE RESPONSIBILITY OF TAKING CARE OF THE NEEDS OF THE PEOPLE IN GAZA IN ADDITION TO THE WEST BANK.

WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THAT?

>> YEAH, YOU KNOW, THEY HAVE AN 87-YEAR-OLD LEADER IN MAHMOUD ABBAS.

WHO PRESIDES OVER A CORRUPT AND INEFFECTIVE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY.

ANYONE WHO HAS WORKED THE STORY FOR A LONG TIME KNOWS THE KIND OF TALENT YOU ACTUALLY HAVE IN THE PALESTINIAN COMMUNITY.

YOU SEE IT IN THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY.

YOU IT AMONG ACADEMICS, AND ARTISTS, THERE IS REAL TALENT THERE, LIKE IN AMERICA AND A LOT OF OTHER COUNTRIES.

UNFORTUNATELY THEY'RE NOT RUNNING THE SHOW, YOU NEED A MUCH MORE SERIOUS, CREDIBLE NEW GENERATIONS OF PALESTINIANS ON THEIR SIDE, AND WHAT PEOPLE LIKE FAYED HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT IS THE PLO, THE UMBRELLA ORGANIZATION FOR THE PALESTINIANS, SORT OF OWNING LEGITIMATE UMBRELLA ORGANIZATION, APPOINT A TECHNOCRATIC GOVERNMENT, THE BEST OF PALESTINIANS THAT WOULD ACTUALLY RUN THE WEST BANK AND GAZA, YOU KNOW, IN PARTNERSHIP OBVIOUSLY WITH ISRAEL TO SOME DEGREE.

FOR THE NEXT COUPLE OF YEARS.

AND THEN ONCE THE SITUATION IS TRULY STABILIZED, THEN YOU HAVE ELECTIONS WITHIN THE PALESTINIAN COMMUNITY FOR TRULY LEGITIMATE GOVERNMENT THAT COULD ACTUALLY NEGOTIATE A LEGITIMATE PEACE DEAL WITH THE ISRAELIS.

SO SOME VARIATION OF THAT IS WHAT WE NEED, WHETHER WE CAN GET THERE, I DON'T KNOW.

>> YOU SAY WE HAVE TO HAVE A BROADER PLAN FOR THE MORNING AFTER.

ISRAELI DOESN'T HAVE THAT.

WHAT WOULD BE YOUR PLAN AND WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN IS DOING IN TERMS OF SORT OF A DUEL TRACK TO TRY TO GET A PLAN FOR THE MORNING AFTER THIS?

>> WHAT BIDEN IS TRYING TO DO, WALTER, IS ACTUALLY PRESENT NETANYAHU WITH A CHOICE, BUT A VERY PUBLIC CHOICE, AND THAT IS YOU CAN DO NOTHING AND GO DOWN THE TRACK YOU'RE GOING TO NOWHERE ON.

OR IF YOU'RE READY TO ENGAGE WITH THE PALESTINIANS ON A PLAN, IT WOULD HAVE TO BE A LONG-TERM PLAN, BUT WHERE THERE ARE TWO STATES FOR TWO PEOPLE AT THE END OF IT, WE CAN ACTUALLY DELIVER FOR YOU, IN PARTNERSHIP WITH SAUDI ARABIA, NORMALIZATION WITH SAUDI ARABIA, AND AN OPENING REALLY TO THE REST OF THE MUSLIM WORLD, WHICH WOULD BE HUGE FOR ISRAEL.

SO WHAT BIDEN IS TRYING TO DO IS ACTUALLY, I HAVE A LOT OF ISRAELI FRIENDS CALLING ME UP SAYING, WOULD YOU TELL JOE BIDEN TO GET RID OF NETANYAHU, I SAY, GUYS, IT DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY, EXCEPT IN THE MOVIES.

WHAT BIDEN IS TRYING TO DO IS PRESENT A CHOICE THAT ALL ISRAELIS WILL SEE.

HERE'S A REAL OPPORTUNITY FOR THE FUTURE TO BURY THE PAST, AND HERE'S A WAY FOR THE PAST TO BURY THE FUTURE, YOU CHOOSE.

MY ONE CONCERN.

I'M A BIG JOE BIDEN FAN.

ONE THING I'VE LEARNED, WALTER, IN 45 PLUS YEARS OF COVERING THIS REGION, WHAT PEOPLE TELL YOU IN ENGLISH IN PRIVATE IS IRRELEVANT.

ALL THAT MATTERS IS WHAT THEY WILL DEFEND IN PUBLIC IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGE, CALLED HEBREW AND ARABIC.

I GET A LITTLE FRIGHTENED WHEN I HEAR BIDEN SAYING, I KNOW BIBI IS SAYING THIS IN PUBLIC, BUT HE TOLD ME SOMETHING ELSE.

IF I HAD A DIME FOR EVERY TIME HE TOLD AN AMERICAN DIPLOMAT OR SECRETARY OF STATE THAT, I COULD RETIRE A LONG TIME AGO.

WE HAVE TO BE VERY CAREFUL.

WHAT PEOPLE TELL YOU IN PRIVATE IN ENGLISH IS IRRELEVANT.

ALL THAT MATTERS IS WHAT THEY WILL DEFEND IN PUBLIC IN HEBREW AND ARABIC, THAT'S ALL I LISTEN FOR.

>> YOU SAY THAT NETANYAHU WILL BE PRESENTED WITH A CHOICE BY THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

CAN AND SHOULD PRESIDENT BIDEN PUT PRESSURE ON HIM, AND I GO BACK.

YOU WROTE ABOUT IT, TO HENRY KISSINGER IN THE 1973 YOM KIPPUR WAR.

VERY SUDDENLY, I THINK THE U.S.

WITHHELD SOME RESUPPLY FOR THE ISRAELI MILITARY IN ORDER TO PUT PRESSURE ON ISRAEL.

SHOULD BIDEN DO THAT?

>> DO I HONESTLY BELIEVE, I'M NOT TRYING TO FORGE YOUR QUESTION.

I THINK IF BIDEN COULD ENGINEER THAT CHOICE, THE PRESSURE YOU WOULD GET IS THE MOST MEANINGFUL PRESSURE OF ALL, FROM THE BOTTOM UP INSIDE THE ISRAELI SYSTEM.

I CAN'T TELL YOU EXACTLY WHERE IT WOULD COME OUT.

I THINK IF HE WERE ABLE TO PRESENT THAT CHOICE, THE MOST IMPORTANT PRESSURE HAS TO BE FROM ISRAELIS AND I THINK IT WOULD BENEFIT.

THAT'S WHAT I'M THINKING ABOUT RIGHT NOW.

>> NETANYAHU, IS HE MOTIVATED BY GOING DOWN IN HISTORY AND GETTING SOLVED FOR THE STATE OF ISRAELI OR IS HE MAINLY MOTIVATED BY SAVING HIS SKIN AND HIS OWN POLITICS.

>> IF THERE'S ANYTHING WE KNOW ABOUT NETANYAHU, HIS NUMBER ONE PRIORITY IS NETANYAHU.

EVEN IN THE MIDDLE OF THIS WAR, I THINK WHERE WE ARE NOW, THIS WAR STARTED ON OCTOBER 7th.

HIS GOVERNMENT STILL CANNOT TELL YOU WHAT THEIR PLAN IS FOR THE MORNING AFTER.

HE CAN'T EVEN HOLD A CABINET MEETING TO DISCUSS THAT WITH HIS CABINET AND SENIOR MILITARY AND SECURITY PEOPLE BECAUSE HIS FAR RIGHT SIMPLY REFUSES TO HAVE ANY PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY OR PALESTINIAN STATE COMPONENT AS PART OF THAT DISCUSSION.

CAN YOU IMAGINE BEING IN A WAR AND YOUR ARMY IS EXPOSED, YOUR PEOPLE ARE EXPOSED AND YOU CAN'T EVEN HOLD A KABLT MEETING.

NOW, INSTEAD OF SAYING THAT FAR RIGHT, TOO BAD, BRING DOWN THE GOVERNMENT.

OKAY.

IF THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO DO.

I DON'T BELIEVE YOU'LL DO THAT.

IF YOU WANT TO BRING DOWN THE GOVERNMENT, THAT'S A HILL I'LL DIE ON.

NETANYAHU SAID THERE WILL BE NO CABINET MEETING.

HE'LL TELL BIDEN SOMETHING, IF YOU SCRATCH YOUR EAR WITH YOUR LEFT HAND, WE'LL FIGURE IT ALL OUT, AND SO THIS IS JUST AN IMPOSSIBLE SITUATION FOR ISRAEL TO NAVIGATE ITS WAY OUT OF WHEN YOU HAVE A PRIME MINISTER WHO'S FIRST PRIORITY IS HIS POLITICAL SURVIVAL.

>> BUT IF NETANYAHU KEEPS DOING THAT, SHOULD THE U.S. CONTINUE TO HAVE SUPPORT AND SEND MUNITIONS.

>> IT'S CONTEXT RELATED AND I'M ALSO WEARY OF MAKING A GENERAL STATEMENT THAT WE SHOULD BE WITHDRAWING MILITARY SUPPORT BECAUSE WHO KNOWS WHAT'S GOING ON ON THE GROUND.

I THINK THE MUCH MORE EFFECTIVE THING IS JOE BIDEN TO GIVE A SPEECH DIRECTLY TO THE ISRAELI PEOPLE ABOUT JUST WHAT THEIR PRIME MINISTER IS DOING, AND JUST WHAT THE IMPLICATIONS WILL BE FOR ISRAEL'S RELATION WITH ITS CLOSEST FRIEND, SOME DAYS ITS ONLY FRIEND IN THE WORLD.

>> AFTER THE OCTOBER 7th ATTACKS, AFTER THE RETALIATION, YOU WENT TO ISRAEL AND YOU SAID, I HAVE NEVER BEEN TO THIS ISRAEL BEFORE.

WHAT DID YOU MEAN BY THAT?

>> I MEANT TWO THINGS.

IT WAS AN ISRAEL THAT TRULY LOST CONFIDENCE IN ITS ARMY AND INTELLIGENCE SERVICES.

THIS WAS NOT A SURPRISE ATTACK BY ANOTHER STATE.

LIKE EGYPT AND SYRIA.

THIS WAS A SURPRISE ATTACK BY A MILITIA IN GAZA THAT LIVES LITERALLY RIGHT UNDER ISRAEL'S NOSE THAT DID JUST ENORMOUS DAMAGE.

ON THE ONE HAND, THERE WAS A REAL PROFOUND LOSS OF CONFIDENCE.

AND THE OTHER, BECAUSE OF THE ATTACKS IN HEZBOLLAH AND LEBANON, IN PARALLEL WITH THE HAMAS ATTACKS FROM GAZA, BASICALLY HAD SHRUNK ISRAEL.

SOME 80,000 ISRAELIS HAD TO MOVE OFF THE NORTHERN BORDER.

SOME 40, 50,000, I DON'T KNOW THE NUMBER OF ISRAELIS NOW HAVE TO MOVE OFF ITS WESTERN BORDER, AND ISRAEL THAT WE HAD ALL KNOWN HAD ACTUALLY SHRUNK ALMOST DOWN TO THE SIZE OF ITS 1947 PARTITION MAP, IF YOU THOUGHT ABOUT IT.

ESPECIALLY IF YOU HAD PARTS OF THE WEST BANK THAT HAD BECOME NO GO ZONES.

SO THIS HAS BEEN EXTREMELY DISORIENTED FOR ISRAEL AND THE TRAUMA OF THE HOSTAGE TAKING HAS BEEN REALLY PROFOUND.

I'M SO FOCUSED ON GETTING THE HOSTAGES BACK FOR ISRAEL.

I DON'T THINK ISRAEL WILL BE ABLE TO THINK STRAIGHT, I'M NOT SAYING THIS IN A LIGHT WAY, UNTIL IT GETS THE HOSTAGES THEN.

ONLY THEN, GOD WILLING THEY GET THEIR HOSTAGES BACK, ONLY THEN CAN THEY HAVE A RATIONAL DISCUSSION ABOUT THEIR FUTURE AND FUTURE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE PALESTINIANS.

>> ONE METRIC IN A SITUATION LIKE THIS IS ARE YOU CREATING MORE TERRORISTS THAN YOU'RE KILLING?

DO YOU THINK THE RESPONSE BY ISRAEL IS PROPORTIONATE OR DO YOU THINK IT IS ACTUALLY GOING TO CAUSE ISRAEL HARM?

>> YEAH, I VERY MUCH WORRY THAT THE AMOUNTS OF CIVILIAN CASUALTIES IN GAZA THAT THE LONG RUN IMPLICATIONS OF THAT, IT WILL BE VERY SERIOUS AND TROUBLING AND PROBLEMATIC FOR ISRAEL.

THAT SAID.

WE HAVE TO REMEMBER ONE THIN WALTER.

WE CAN ASK THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT ANY QUESTION WE WANT ANY DAY.

YOU'LL GET AN ANSWER FROM THE MILITARY SPOKESPERSON OR THE PRIME MINISTER SPOKESPERSON.

YOU MAY NOT LIKE THE ANSWER.

MAY NOT BE FULL OR COMPLETE.

MAY NOT BE STRAIGHT, BUT YOU'LL GET AN ANSWER.

NO ONE HAS ASKED ONE QUESTION TO SINWAR, HE HASN'T HAD TO ANSWER ONE QUESTION, WHY DID YOUR MEN, THEY ACTUALLY RAPED PEOPLE.

WE HAVE INDEPENDENT REPORTS OF THIS.

THEY SHOT PARENTS IN FRONT OF THEIR KIDS, SHOT KIDS IN FRONT OF THEIR PARENTS.

THEY ABDUCTED INFANTS AND GRANDPARENTS.

WAS THAT ON YOUR ORDERS?

WHAT WAS THAT ABOUT?

AND SO I'M DEEPLY DISTURBED BY THE AMOUNT OF CIVILIAN CASUALTIES IN THIS WAR.

I REPEAT, IT WILL BE, I THINK, A REAL STAIN ON ISRAEL IN THE LONG RUN.

BUT LET'S REMEMBER THAT HAMAS BASICALLY BUILT ITS MILITARY INFRASTRUCTURE UNDERNEATH AND ALONGSIDE CIVILIANS.

LAUNCHED THIS WAR KNOWING WHAT THE ISRAELI RESPONSE WOULD BE.

AND THAT THEY BEAR ENORMOUS CULPABILITY IN THIS AS WELL.

AND SO I THINK WE HAVE TO ASK, WHAT'S GOING TO BE THE REACTION FOR HAMAS IN THE LONG RUN FROM THAT AS WELL.

>> A FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP NOW SEEMS AFTER NEW HAMPSHIRE TO BE PRETTY CLEARLY ON THE WAY TO THE REPUBLICAN NOMINATION.

DURING HIS ADMINISTRATION, THERE WAS THE ABRAHAM ACCORDS, WHICH STARTED THE APPROACH WITH THE SAUDIS, AND PERHAPS A ROAD TO A TWO-STATE SOLUTION.

DO YOU SEE ANY MERIT INTO WHERE HE WAS GOING AND HOW DO YOU THINK HE WOULD HANDLE THIS?

>> WELL, LET'S ASK OURSELVES, WALTER, WHAT'S THE BIGGEST PROBLEM WE HAVE TODAY?

THE BIGGEST PROBLEM WE HAVE TODAY IS WE'RE ACTUALLY IN A PROXY WAR WITH IRAN.

AND IRAN HAS ENORMOUS LEVERAGE ON US BECAUSE WE HAVE TWO AIRCRAFT CARRIERS IN THE REGION.

IRAN HAS FOUR WHAT I CALL LAND CRAFT CARRIERS, HOUTHIS IN LEBANON, AND SHEE YA MILITIAS IN IRAQ.

LIKE AIRCRAFT CARRIERS THEY ARE PLATFORMS THROUGH WHICH IRAN PROJECTS POWER WITH IMPLAUSIBLE DENIALABILITY THAT IT'S ACTUALLY INVOLVED.

IT'S IN A VERY STRONG POSITION, BUT THE REASON IT'S IN SUCH A STRONG POSITION IS BECAUSE IRAN IS NOW JUST WEEKS AWAY, A FEW TURNS OF THE SCREWDRIVER AWAY FROM A NUCLEAR WEAPON.

NOW, HOW DID IT GET THERE?

IT GOT THERE BECAUSE DONALD TRUMP TORE UP BARACK OBAMA'S NUCLEAR DEAL WITH IRAN, WHICH WAS WORKING, WHICH KEPT IRAN A YEAR AWAY FROM A BOMB.

AND TRUMP DID THAT WITHOUT, TALK ABOUT NO PLAN FOR THE MORNING AFTER, WITH NO DIPLOMATIC PLAN TO GET A BETTER DEAL OR ANY MILITARY PLAN TO DEAL WITH IRAN IF IT THEN WENT AHEAD AND DID JUST WHAT IT DID, WHICH WAS CONTINUE TO ENRICH AT A MUCH HIGHER LEVEL AND BRING ITSELF TO THE THRESHOLD OF A BOMB.

THAT IS DONALD TRUMP AND BIBI NETANYAHU, THEY DID THIS TOGETHER.

THAT IS THEIR DOING.

IT PUT ISRAEL AND AMERICA IN A MUCH MORE DIFFICULT POSITION, PUT IRAN IN A MUCH STRONGER POSITION.

FOR DONALD TRUMP TO SAY NONE OF THIS WOULD BE HAPPENING IF I WERE IN CHARGE, HE'S RIGHT, WE'D BE IN SO MUCH BETTER POSITION TODAY IF HE HAD NOT BEEN IN CHARGE.

>> TOM FRIEDMAN, THANKS FOR JOINING US YOU BET, WALTER, THANK YOU.

>>> SUCH AN IMPORTANT CONVERSATION, AND FINALLY LOOTED TREASURES RETURNING HOME AFTER 150 YEARS, THE CROWN JEWELS OF GHANA ARE GOING BACK TO THAT WEST AFRICAN COUNTRY AT LEAST FOR NOW.

THE PRICELESS COLLECTION OF GOLD IS SILVER WAS RAIDED BY COLONIAL BRITISH SOLDIERS IN THE 19th CENTURY.

NOW TWO LEADING MUSEUMS HERE IN THE UK ARE LOANING THE 32 ARTIFACTS AS PART OF A THREE-YEAR AGREEMENT.

THINK CROWNS, SWORDS AND BADGES, ALL WITH HUGE CULTURAL SIGNIFICANCE AND ALTHOUGH UK INSTITUTIONS ARE BANNED BY LAW FROM PERMANENTLY GIVING BACK CONTESTED ITEMS, GHANA'S CHIEF NEGOTIATOR TOLD THE BBC HE HOPED FOR A NEW SENSE OF CULTURAL COOPERATION AFTER GENERATIONS OF ANGER.

THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT, IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING ON THE SHOW EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWS LETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANKS FOR WATCHING AND GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.