>> O'Connell: I'M SUE O'CONNELL.

TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON:" >> O'CONNELL: I'M SUE O'CONNELL.

TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON:" FROM TIKTOK, TO FACIAL RECOGNITION SOFTWARE, AND WORKPLACE SAFETY TRACKERS-- ADVANCING TECHNOLOGY OFTEN GOES HAND-IN-HAND WITH PRIVACY CONCERNS.

HOW CAN WE PROTECT OUR DATA IN THE MODERN WORLD?

THEN LATER, ARE THE GLORY DAYS OF BIG TECH BEHIND US?

WITH NEW LAYOFFS BEING ANNOUNCED SEEMINGLY BY THE DAY, WE'LL GET INTO WHAT'S NEXT FOR THE INDUSTRY, THE ECONOMY, AND WHAT YOU CAN DO IF YOU'RE NEXT ON THE CHOPPING BLOCK.

♪♪ >> O'CONNELL: IT'S NO SECRET THAT OUR PHONES KNOW ALMOST EVERYTHING ABOUT US, FROM HOW MANY STEPS YOU'VE TAKEN IN A DAY, TO YOUR EXACT LOCATION AT ANY WAKING MOMENT.

AND WHILE THAT HAS ITS UPSIDES-- FROM MORE INFORMATION ABOUT OUR HEALTH, TO REMINDERS ABOUT WHERE WE PARKED OUR CAR-- THERE ARE SOME SERIOUS RISKS TO OUR PRIVACY.

AND WHEN OUR INFORMATION GETS INTO THE WRONG HANDS, THERE CAN BE SECURITY RISKS, TOO.

THAT'S SOMETHING PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN IS AIMING TO PROTECT AGAINST WITH A NEW BAN ON TIKTOK USE BY GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS USING AGENCY-ISSUED DEVICES.

THE BAN, WHICH WAS FOLDED INTO THE MAJOR FUNDING BILL HE SIGNED LAST MONTH, FOLLOWS A WAVE OF CONCERNS ABOUT THE APP, OWNED BY THE CHINESE COMPANY BYTEDANCE.

AND IT'S NOT JUST SOCIAL MEDIA THAT POSES A THREAT.

A REPORT REVEALED BY THE A.C.L.U.

JUST LAST WEEK REVEALED THAT OVER 150 MILLION MONEY TRANSFER RECORDS WERE ACCESSIBLE-- WITHOUT WARRANT-- TO MORE THAN 600 LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

JOINING ME TO DISCUSS THIS, AND A SERIES OF OTHER EMERGING PRIVACY CONCERNS, IS KADE CROCKFORD, DIRECTOR OF THE TECHNOLOGY FOR LIBERTY PROGRAM AT THE A.C.L.U.

OF MASSACHUSETTS.

P. >> O'Connell: YOU KNOW, I FEEL LIKE I'VE LIVED MY LIFE NOT WORRYING ABOUT PRIVACY STUFF, AND THIS IS HOW IT IS NOW, BU LATELY I HAVE BECOME MORE CONCERNED ABOUT THINGS.

AND TALK TO US FIRST, EXPLAIN TO US FIRST, ABOUT THIS FINDING FROM THE MASSACHUSETTS LAW ENFORCEMENT ORGANIZATIONS.

WE HAVE A LIST OF A WHOLE BUNCH OF ORGANIZATIONS, FROM THE BOSTON POLICE DEPARTMENT, BRIDGEWATER MASSACHUSETTS POLICE DEPARTMENT, THE D.E.A.

IN BOSTON, THE D.E.A.

IN NEW ENGLAND, ON AND ON AND ON HERE.

KADE, WHAT WERE THEY LOOKING AT, WHY WE THEY LOOKING AT IT, AND WHY DIDN'T THEY NEED A WARRANT?

>> I'M SORRY, I'M NOT FAMILIAR WITH WHAT YOU'RE REFERRING TO.

>> O'Connell: THE ACLU REPORT ON THE DRUG MONEY -- >> OH, THE MONEY TRANSFERS.

>> O'Connell: RIGHT.

>> YEAH.

FAR TOO OFTEN IN THE DIGITAL AGE, WE SEE THAT LAW ENFORCEMENT IS ACCESSING VERY SENSITIVE RECORDS ABOUT MANY, MANY PEOPLE WITHOUT A WARRANT, AND THAT IS SIMPLY UNACCEPTABLE.

IF THE POLICE WERE TO TRY TO GET ACCESS TO YOUR BANKING RECORDS OR YOUR CHECKBOOK THAT IS STORED IN YOUR DESK AT HOME IN A DRAWER, THEY WERE HAVE TO GET A WARRANT FROM A JUDGE BEFORE COMING YOUR HOUSE AND SEARCHING THROUGH YOUR PERSONAL BELONGINGS TO DISCOVER WHO YOU'VE BEEN WRITING CHECKS TO.

THAT SAME RULE NEEDS TO APPLY IN THE DIGITAL AGE.

THERE IS NO GOOD REASON FOR POLICE TO BE ABLE TO ACCESS IN SUCH A DRAGNET KIND OF CAPACITY WITHOUT INDIVIDUALIZED SUSPICION THAT SOMEONE IS VIOLENTLY A LAW, LET ALONE A SERIOUS LAW, BEFORE THEY CAN ACCESS SENSITIVE RECORDS LIKE OUR PAYMENT INFORMATION.

SO THIS IS A REALLY DISTURBING SET OF FINDINGS THAT THE NATIONAL ACLU UNRECOVERED, REVEALING THAT FOR QUITE SOME TIME, POLICE ALL ACROSS THE COUNTRY HAVE BEEN ABLE TO ACCESS PEOPLE'S VERY SENSITIVE RECORDS, WITHOUT THAT SUSPICION AND WITHOUT A JUDGE'S PERMISSION.

>> O'Connell: AND WE'RE SEEING ALL ACROSS THE FINANCIAL SECTOR, THE VENMO TRANSFERS -- I'VE TEASED YOUNG PEOPLE IN MY LIFE, EVERY TIME THEY SAY THEY BOUGHT COOKIES, I KNOW IT MAY NOT BE COOKIES THEY'RE BUYING.

AND OTHER PEOPLE SAY I CAN SEE MY HEALTH PROVIDERS, AND THEY'RE GOING TO SEE DISNEY ON ICE NEXT WEEK, AND MAYBE I'LL RUN INTO THEM.

>> YEAH.

>> O'Connell: ARE WE JUST IMMUNE TO THIS OR DO YOU THINK IT IS A MOMENT IN TIME WHERE WE NEED TO REALLY RATCHET UP OUR CONCERN ABOUT HOW MUCH OF OUR INFORMATION IS OUT THERE AND WHO IS LOOKING AT IT?

>> I THINK PEOPLE, PARTICULARLY IN LIGHT OF THE SUPREME COURT DECISION ON ABORTION, THE DOBBS DECISION, ARE REALIZING OVER THE PAST MONTHS IN PARTICULAR THAT THERE IS SO MUCH INFORMATION THAT WE LEAVE BEHIND US IN DIGITAL FORMATS, WITH PRIVATE COMPANIES EVERY SINGLE DAY JUST BY VIRTUAL OF DOING THE ORDINARY HUMAN BUSINESS THAT WE ALL HAVE TO DO: GOING TO SCHOOL, YOU KNOW, DOING OUR JOBS, COMMUNICATING WITH OUR CHILD CARE PROVIDERS AND OUR HEALTH CARE PROVIDERS.

YOU KNOW, LOOKING UP INFORMATION ONLINE ABOUT HOW TO SELF-MANAGE AN ABORTION.

PAYING FOR ABORTION PILLS ONLINE.

THESE ARE THE KINDS OF THINGS, I THINK, THAT EVERYONE INS INSTINCTIVELY WANTS TO REMAIN PRIVATE, BUT FOR A COUPLE OF DIFFERENT REASONS OUR LAWS HAVE NOT REALLY KEPT PACE, AND TECHNOLOGY COMPANIES HAVE NOT PRIVILEGED PRIVACY AND SECURITY OVER SHAREABILITY.

SO, FOR EXAMPLE, VENMO WAS CRITICIZED A NUMBER OF YEARS FOR NOT BY DEFAULT MAKING PEOPLE'S TRANSACTIONS PRIVATE.

SO IF YOU WANT TO, YOU CAN GO IN ON THE VENMO APP AND MAKE ALL OF YOUR TRANSACTIONS PRIVATE SO THEY CAN'T LOOK UP YOUR ACCOUNT AND SEE WHO YOU HAVE BEEN CHANGING MONEY WITH AND WHAT THAT LITTLE NOTE SAYS ABOUT THE MONEY YOU'RE EXCHANGING.

BUT A LOT OF PEOPLE DO NOT HAVE THAT SETTING TURNED ON.

SO SOME IS BY DESIGN OR DEFAULT, BUT SOME IS ON OUR LAWMAKERS.

WE NEED TO STEP UP TO THE PLATE IN MASSACHUSETTS, AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL, TO IMPOSE SOME BASIC PRIVACY AND SECURITY SAFEGUARDS SO NOT EVERYBODY HAS TO BE A PRIVACY EXPERT, RIGHT?

IT IS TOO MUCH TO ASK OF ORDINARY PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY YOUNG PEOPLE WHO ARE JUST STARTING TO GET A HANDLE ON HOW TO EVEN HAVE A BANK ACCOUNT, TO MANAGE THOSE KINDS OF THINGS.

THERE SHOULD BE SOME PROTECTIONS IN PLACE ACROSS THE BOARD SO NOT EVERYBODY HAS TO HAVE AN ADVANCED DEGREE IN PRIVACY AND SECURITY WHEN ONLINE.

>> O'Connell: AND THEY HAVE AN EXPECTATION THAT IT DOESN'T NEED TO BE PRIVATE, BUT THAT IT IS GOING TO BE PRIVATE.

I HAD THIS REVEALING, LIKE WHEN ELON MUSK BOUGHT TWITTER.

ARE THEY MINE OR HIS?

LISTEN, I WANT TO TALK QUICKLY TOO ABOUT THIS CASE IN MADISON SQUARE GARDEN, AND THE ACLU AND ACLU MASSACHUSETTS WORKING WITH FACIAL RECOGNITION, BUT THIS IS A PRIVATE COMPANY, THE MADISON SQUARE GARDEN WHO USED FACIAL RECOGNITION TO IDENTIFY A PATRON WHO WAS GOING TO A HOLIDAY SHOW WITH HER KID.

SHE WAS AN EMPLOYEE AT A LAW OFFICE.

AND HER LAW OFFICE HAD A CASE WHERE SOMEONE WAS SUING MADISON SQUARE GARDEN, AND SHE WAS NOT INVOLVED, BUT THE FACIAL FACIAL RECOGNITION, AND THEY I.D.

'd HER, AND SHE WAS DENIED ACCESS.

MAYBE THERE IS A LAW IN NEW YORK THAT ALLOWS EVERYBODY TO GO TO A PUBLIC EVENT.

THIS IS AN EXAMPLE OF HOW LAWMAKERS ARE REALLY UNABLE TO KEEP UP WITH THE TECHNOLOGY.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

THIS IS A FASCINATING CASE AND IT IS REALLY DISTURBING.

WHAT THIS CASE SHOWS IS THAT FACIAL RECOGNITION TECHNOLOGY CAN BE USED NOT ONLY BY POLICE TO INVESTIGATE CRIMES, WHICH IS SOMETHING THAT WE'RE WORKING ON HERE IN MASSACHUSETTS.

WE'RE VERY MUCH HOPEFUL THAT THE LEGISLATURE WILL FINISH THIS JOB THIS SESSION, EARLY IN THE SESSION, WE HOPE, BY IMPLEMENTING RECOMMENDATIONS THAT CAME FROM A SPECIAL LEGISLATIVE COMMISSION TO INCREASE THE PRIVACY PROTECTIONS AND DUE PRIVACY AROUND THE POLICE USE OF THE TECHNOLOGY.

THE MADISON SQUARE GARDEN CASE RAISES A WHOLE OTHER SET OF ISSUES.

WHAT HAPPENS WHEN CORPORATIONS ARE USING THIS EFFECTIVELY TO POLICE, WHO CAN ENTER THEIR SPACE.

SO I THINK IT IS PRETTY EGREGIOUS THAT SIMPLY WORKING FOR A LAW FIRM WHO IS ENGAGED IN LITIGATION AGAINST ONE OF THE MANY COMPANIES THAT IS UNDER THE UMBRELLA OF THE COMPANIES THAT OWN THE MADISON SQUARE VENUE MEANS YOU CAN'T GO TO A RESTAURANT, AND YOU CAN'T TAKE THE KIDS, LIKE IN THIS CASE, TO THE ROCKETTES.

THERE ARE OTHERS WHO WERE PREVENTED FROM SEEING SPORTS GAMES AT MADISON SQUARE GARDEN BECAUSE OF THIS.

WHAT THEY NEED IN NEW YORK TO PROHIBIT THIS IS A LAW LIKE WHAT THE STATE OF ILLINOIS HAS.

ILLINOIS HAAS HAS THE MOST ADVANCED LAW THAT PROTECTS OUR RIGHTS OVER OUR OWN BIOMETRIC DATA.

BIOMETRIC MEANS ANYTHING THAT IS UNIQUE TO EACH OF US.

SO OUR FACE PRINT IS BIOMETRIC.

AND WHAT IT DOES IN ILLINOIS, AND WHAT WE'RE HOPING TO ACCOMPLISH HERO IN MASSACHUSETTS, IT ESSENTIALLY SAYS COMPANIES LIKE MADISON SQUARE GARDEN OR LIKE WAL-MART OR WALGREENS CANNOT COLLECT YOUR BIOMETRIC DATA WITHOUT YOUR CONSENT.

SO THIS COULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED IN ILLINOIS, BECAUSE IN ILLINOIS, YOU KNOW, A VENUE WOULD BE REQUIRED TO GET THE CONSENT OF THE PEOPLE ON THAT LIST BEFORE, YOU KNOW, TURNING THEIR IMAGE INTO A BIOMETRIC DATA POINT THAT COULD THEN BE UPLOADED INTO A SYSTEM LIKE THIS.

THAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT.

BECAUSE I DON'T THINK ANYBODY WANTS TO LIVE IN A WORLD WHERE IN THE FUTURE YOU CAN CAPRICIOUSLY BE DENIED ENTRY INTO A RESTAURANT OR PUBLIC VENUE LIKE T.D.

GARDEN OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT48 A LIST.

OR, EVEN MORE FRIGHTENINGLY, MAYBE, BECAUSE YOU LOOK LIKE SOMEONE WHOSE NAME IS ON A LIST.

BECAUSE WE KNOW THESE TECHNOLOGIES DON'T ALWAYS WORK.

>> O'Connell: AS WE WRAP UP HERE, ARE YOU OPTIMISTIC OR WORRIED ABOUT 2023 WHEN IT COMES TO PRIVACY ISSUES AROUND TECHNOLOGY?

ARE WE STARTING TO WAKE UP A BIT AND TAKE ACTION OR SHOULD WE WAKE UP AND TAKE ACTION?

>> I'M REALLY OPTIMISTIC RECENTLY.

IN RECENT YEARS, MASSACHUSETTS LAWMAKERS HAVE MADE SIGNIFICANT PROGRESS ON THESE ISSUES.

THEY WRAPPED ON THEIR BUSINESS LAST YEAR ON THE POLICE USE OF FACIAL EQUITYFACIALRECOGNITION TECHNOLOGY.

THE STATE POLICE, THE NAACP, THE PUBLIC DEFENDERS OFFICE, AND I COULD GO ON AND ON.

WE THINK THERE IS COMMON SENSE, EASY POLITICAL WINS WE NEED TO PUT IN PLACE THIS SESSION.

AND THERE IS THIS PANDORA'S BOX OF CONSUMER ISSUES, AND IN THIS SESSION, WE'RE HAVE VERY PROUD TO HAVE WORKED WITH LAWMAKERS IN THE HOUSE AND THE SENATE AND A NUMBER OF COALITION PARTNERS TO SUPPORT LEGISLATION THAT WOULD CREATE OMNIVUS PROTECTIONS FOR ALL KINDS OF ONLINE BEHAVIORS WE ENGAGE IN.

AND IF YOU WANT TO HAVE ME ON THE SHOW TO TALK MORE ABOUT THIS, I'D BE HAPPY TO JOIN, BUT TO PROHIBIT COMPANIES FROM SELLING AND TRADING OUR CELL PHONE INFORMATION, WHICH, UNFORTUNATELY, IS HAPPENING ALL ACROSS THE COUNTRY, AND IT IS A TOTALLY UNREGULATED WILDWEST, AND THERE IS JEOPARDY OF PRIVACY AND EVEN PERSONAL HARM.

I'M CONFIDENT THAT LAWMAKERS TAKING THIS VERY SERIOUSLY.

>> O'Connell: WE WILL PUT YOU ON THE BOOKS FOR THE NEXT TIME UP.

I APPRECIATE YOUR TIME AND EXPERTISE THERE.

KADE CROCKFORD, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU.

NEXT UP, AFTER A DECADE OF EXPLOSIVE GROWTH, IT LOOKS LIKE THE TECH SECTOR IS SEEING A MAJOR SHIFT.

THE LAYOFFS JUST KEEP COMING, AND COMING, AT COMPANIES LIKE GOOGLE, META-- FACEBOOK'S PARENT COMPANY-- AMAZON, AND MICROSOFT, WITH TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE LOSING THEIR JOBS IN JUST THE PAST FEW WEEKS.

AND, SINCE THE START OF LAST YEAR, THE TECH INDUSTRY HAS SHED A STAGGERING 200,000 JOBS.

ALL OF THIS COMES AS TOP FINANCIAL LEADERS CONTINUE TO WARN A RECESSION MAY BE RIGHT AROUND THE CORNER.

SO, WHAT DOES THIS ALL MEAN FOR THE FUTURE OF THE TECH INDUSTRY?

AND, IF YOU'RE ONE OF THE UNLUCKY ONES NOW OUT OF WORK, WHAT CAN YOU DO TO GET BACK UP ON YOUR FEET?

TO DISCUSS, I'M JOINED NOW BY MICHELLE SINGLETARY, PERSONAL FINANCE COLUMNIST WITH THE "WASHINGTON POST," AND DAN PRIMACK, BUSINESS EDITOR AT AXIOS.

>> O'Connell: WELCOME TO BOTH OF YOU.

DAN, I WANT TO START WITH YOU.

WE TALK A LOT ABOUT LAYOFFS AND WHAT THEY MEAN IN THE GREATER ECONOMY.

AND THESE ARE BIG NUMBERS, 200,000 IS A LARGE NUMBER, BUT WE'RE NOT SEEING LAYOFFS IN OTHER PARTS AND SECTORS OF THE BUSINESS INDUSTRY, ARE WE?

OR IS THIS AND ANOMALY?

>> IT'S AN ANOMALY.

WE'RE SEEING SOME ON WALL STREET, BUT IN GENERAL IT IS AN ANOMALY.

BECAUSE THE TECH SECTOR, BEGINNING A LITTLE BEFORE THE PANDEMIC AND THEN THROUGH AND AFTER, HIRED FASTER THAN OTHER INDUSTRIES, AND HIRED MORE IN PART BECAUSE STOCK PRICES KEPT RISING TO ASTRONOMICAL LEVELS, AND REVENUE KEPT GOING TO ASTRONOMICAL LEVELS.

SO YOU'RE SEEING A PULL-BACK FROM SOMETHING THAT WAS ALREADY ABNORMAL.

AND THE LABOR MARKET IS HISTORICALLY TIGHT.

>> O'Connell: THE LAYOFFS AMONG DIFFERENT TYPES OF COMPANIES.

I KNOW WE CALL THEM TECH COMPANIES, BUT THEY ALL HAVE DIFFERENT MODELS AND THEY DRIVE IN DIFFERENT WAYS.

ARE THESE LAYOFFS IN ANTICIPATION THEY THINK THERE IS GOING TO BE A RECESSION?

OR IS THERE ADVERTISING ISSUES, SO ADVERTISING IS HOLDING BACK AND THE TECH INDUSTRY IS HOLDING BACK AS WELL?

OR DO YOU THINK THIS IS A COMPLETE ADJUSTMENT, OR "D," ALL OF THE ABOVE?

>> I THINK ALL OF THE ABOVE.

CERTAINLY THE AD MARKET HAS SLOWED DOWN IN PART BECAUSE AVERTISERS, NOT NECESSARY BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE THERE COULD BE A RECESSION, BUT THEY'RE CONCERNED THERE COULD BE.

ADVERTISING BUDGETS ARE ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS TO GET SHRUNK A LITTLE BIT.

THAT'S THE MAIN PIECE.

AND OBVIOUSLY STOCK PRICES HAVE GONE WAY DOWN.

IT IS CAUTION MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE.

YOU'RE NOT SEEING, GENERALLY, ANY OF THE TECH GIANTS -- EVEN THOUGH THE NUMBERS OF HUGE, IT IS JUST 10% OF THEIR WORKFORCE, NOT 50% OR 60%.

>> O'Connell: MICHELLE, I HAVE TALKED TO PEOPLE IN ALL SORTS OF GENERATIONS THAT HAVE BEEN, UNFORTUNATELY, IMPACTED BY THESE LAYOFFS.

FOR A LOT OF THE LAYOFFS, THESE ARE THEIR FIRST JOBS, OR THEY MOVED SOME PLACE TO WORK AT THESE COMPANIES, AND EXPECTED, AS WE ALL DO, TO BE WORKING THERE FOR A LONG TYPE.

YOUR FIRST LAYOFF, YOU NEVER FORGET.

THE FIRST TIME I WAS FIRED, I REMEMBER THAT VERY CLEARLY AS WELL.

WHAT ADVICE DO YOU HAVE FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE EXPERIENCING THIS LAYOFF EXPERIENCE RIGHT NOW?

>> I THINK THE FIRST THING IS THAT YOU SHOULD GIVE YOURSELF PERMISSION TO MOURN.

WE OFTEN GO RIGHT TO THE MONEY TIPS.

BUT IT IS, AS YOU ALREADY SAID -- IT CAN BE PRETTY DEVASTATING.

AND EVEN MORE SO WHEN YOU WORK FOR THOSE TYPE OF COMPANIES WHICH WERE SEEN AS YOU GET A JOB WITH THEM, YOU'VE MADE IT.

SO WHEN PEOPLE GET LAID OFF FROM THOSE BIG COMPANIES, MICROSOFT, GOOGLE, IT REALLY HITS YOUR SPIRIT.

BECAUSE YOU PROBABLY GOT THAT JOB THROUGH A VERY COMPETITIVE PROCESS.

SO RIGHT AWAY YOU'RE THINKING, WHAT DID I DO?

WAS IT SOMETHING ABOUT MY JOB PERFORMANCE?

AND BEFORE YOU CAN EVEN TAKE THE STEPS YOU NEED TO SECURE YOURSELF FINANCIALLY, YOU HAVE TO PREPARE FOR THAT MENTAL PART OF IT.

AND SO WHILE YOU STILL HAVE SOME ACCESS TO HEALTH CARE, TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THAT.

BECAUSE IT GETS YOU AT A LEVEL THAT WOULD MAKE IT DIFFICULT FOR YOU TO FIND ANOTHER JOB.

AND ONCE YOU DEAL WITH THAT, LOOK AT YOUR BUDGET.

WHAT CAN YOU CUT QUICKLY.

A LOT OF TIMES PEOPLE OVERESTIMATE HOW LONG IT WILL TAKE THEM TO REPLACE THAT JOB.

SO YOU DON'T CUT RIGHT AWAY, BECAUSE YOU THINK I'M GOING TO GET SOMETHING SOON, AND THAT MONEY COULD THEN BE USED TO HELP PAY FOR THE THINGS YOU ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO PAY FOR, THE ROOF OVER YOUR HEAD AND THE FOOD ON YOUR TABLE.

>> O'Connell: MICHELLE, I WANT TO STAY WITH THE EMOTIONAL PART OF IT THERE AS WELL, BECAUSE A LOT OF THESE JOBS ALSO CAME WITH A LOT OF FRILLS.

A LOT OF FREE FOOD, FREE DOUGHNUTS, A LOT OF WORK WHERE YOU WANT OR HOW YOU WANT TO WORK.

SO THERE WAS A FEELING OF BUBBLE THAT IS WRAPPED AROUND -- NOT ALL, BUT SOME TECH EMPLOYEES.

AND ALSO I SAW ON TWITTER, AS PEOPLE WERE BEING LAID OFF, THEY WERE TALIBANING TALKING ABOUT THEY JUST HAD A GREAT PERFORMANCE REVIEW, AND THEY WERE TOLD THEY WERE KEY AND THE FUTURE OF THE COMPANY, AND THEN THEY GET LAID OFF.

STAY A LITTLE BIT MORE WITH THAT.

IF THIS IS THE FIRST TIME YOU'VE BEEN THROUGH THIS, IS IT OKAY TO JUMP TO JADED?

OR DO YOU WANT TO JUST TRY AND FIND A WAY TO KEEP THAT JOY OF WHY YOU CHOSE THIS INDUSTRY IN THE FIRST PLACE?

>> I THINK IT IS BOTH.

I THINK YOU DO HAVE TO ADDRESS THIS SENSE OF FAILURE.

I SAW A TWEET FROM SOMEONE, WHO THEY GOT LAID OFF ABOUT A YEAR AGO, THEY WERE ABOUT TO CELEBRATE THEIR FIRST ANNIVERSARY AT ONE OF THE MAJOR COMPANIES.

AND THAT MUST JUST BE DEVASTATING.

SO, YOU KNOW WHAT?

FEEL WHAT YOU FEEL.

WE ALWAYS TELL PEOPLE, OH, JOY WILL COME IN THE MORNING.

AND WE KIND OF TRY TO GET PEOPLE TO GO TO THAT JOY THING RIGHT AWAY.

BUT THAT IS NOT GOOD ADVICE.

WHEN YOU HAVE -- I DON'T WANT TO POINT TO THIS BECAUSE IT SEEMS SO STRONG, BUT WHEN SOMEONE PASSES AWAY OR SOMETHING MAJOR LIKE THAT, YOU HAVE TO GIVE YOURSELF THAT SPACE TO FEEL THAT.

AND NO MATTER -- YOU COULD HAVE GOTTEN A GREAT EVALUATION, IT IS HARD FOR YOU TO GO, WHAT DID I DO?

PARTICULARLY IN A SITUATION WHERE THERE WERE SO MANY PEOPLE WHO DIDN'T GET LAID OFF.

THESE COMPANIES, I HATE WHEN THEY DO THIS, OH, IT'S ONLY 1% OR OUR WORKFORCE OR 5% OF OUR WORKFORCE.

WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT MATH, THAT'S STILL THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE.

AND THERE IS SURVIVORS' GRIEF FROM THE PEOPLE WHO DIDN'T GET LAID OFF.

I'M A BIG BELIEVER -- THERE ARE ALL KINDS OF THINGS IN MY BACKGROUND, BUT YOU NEED TO SEE SOMEONE WHO TO HELP YOU GET THROUGH THIS.

IF YOU'RE STILL GRIEVING, YOU'RE STILL ANGRY, YOU HAVEN'T PROCESSED THAT, THAT COULD IMPACT YOUR ABILITY TO GET NEW EMPLOYMENT.

>> O'Connell: AND WE SHOULD MENTION, TOO, THE TECH SECTOR AND THE MEDIA SECTOR ALSO SEEING LAYOFFS, NOT TO THE DEGREE THAT THE TECH CENTER IS, BUT BOTH OF OUR OTHER COMPANIES, WE'VE SEEN LAYOFFS AND CO-WORKERS LAID OFF OVER THE PAST COUPLE OF WEEKS AS WELL.

DAN, WHAT HAPPENS NOW?

IS IT LIKE IT IS THE PRESHUFFLING MOMENT AND THE RESETTING MOMENT.

THE TECH COMPANIES ARE NOT BABIES.

THEY'RE GETTING INTO THE ESTABLISHED AREA OF THIS SECTOR.

I'M OLD ENOUGH TO HAVE GONE THROUGH THE TECH BUBBLE THE FIRST TIME, WHEN IT BURST.

BUT IT RESET AND HERE WE ARE OFF AT THE RACES AGAIN.

TWITTER IS KILLING ME.

I'M MOURNING AND GRIEVING TWITTER EVERY DAY THAT IT IS NOT WHAT IT WAS FOR ME.

BUT I'M AWARE OF THE HUMAN COSTS TO THAT, THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO REALLY INVESTED AND BELIEVED IN PROGRAMMERS WHO WERE WRITING CODE THAT WERE SO THRILLED ON APPLICATIONS, AND THAT IS ALL GONE FOR THEM AS WELL.

CAN WE EXPECT A YEAR FROM NOW IT WILL BE LEANER, BUT THE TECH INDUSTRY WILL BE BACK ON ITS FEET?

>> YES.

YOU'VE SEEN THAT.

AND ALL COMPANIES NOW SAY THEY'RE TECH COMPANIES.

I THINK WHAT IS IMPORTANT, PARTICULARLY FOR FOLKS THAT HAVE BEEN LAID OFF, WHETHER IT BE A META OR AMAZON, WHATEVER, THE REAL OPPORTUNITIES ARE TECH JOBS AT NON-TECH COMPANIES, OR AT LEAST COMPANIES YOU WOULDN'T THINK OF AS TECH COMPANIES.

AND YOU HAVE A LOT OF COMPANIES, MANUFACTURERS, ELT ET,MANUFACTURERSETC., WHO ARE SAYING, WE COULD GET A FORMER GOOGLE ENGINEER?

THAT'S A REALLY BIG DEAL FOR THEM.

THIS IS AN EXTREMELY TIGHT LABOR MARKET.

UNLIKE SOMETIMES IN THE PAST WHERE WE HAVE SEEN MASSIVE LAYOFFS EVERYWHERE, AND YOU HAVE INCREDIBLY LONG UNEMPLOYMENT LINES AND PEOPLE CAN'T FIND A JOB.

RIGHT NOW THERE ARE JOBS FOR CODERS, BUT THEY JUST MIGHT NOT BE IN THE TRADITIONAL PLACES.

AND THIS IS ALSO USUALLY A TIME WHEN WE SEE A BIT OF A TECH START-UP BOOM.

BECAUSE ANYBODY WHO MAYBE HAS A GOOD IDEA OR HAS WANTED TO GO ON THEIR OWN, NO BETTER TIME THAN WHEN YOU'RE NOT GETTING A PAYCHECK.

>> O'Connell: MICHELLE, I WANTED TO TALK TO THE FUTURE OF WHEN YOU GET LAID OFF.

MY NIECE CAME AND LOOKED AT MY DESK AND SHE SAID, YOU DON'T HAVE ANY PERSONAL ITEMS ON YOUR DESK?

AND I SAID, NO, BECAUSE I CAN GO WHEN I HAVE TO GO.

I'M 61, I'VE WORKED FOR MANY MEDIA COMPANIES.

IF YOU'RE STARTING YOUR CAREER OR YOU'RE GIVING ADVICE TO SOMEONE STARTING THEIR CAREER, WE DAWK ABOUT THETALKABOUT THE TEAMWORK AND THE FAMILY, BUT YOU COULD JUST BE A PERCENT THAT IS LET GO.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

>> O'Connell: WHAT MINDSET CAN PEOPLE BUILD INTO THEIR JOBS IN CASE THEY'RE LET GO?

>> I DON'T THINK I NEED TO GIVE A LOT OF ADVICE TO YOUNG ADULTS BECAUSE THEY GOT IT RIGHT.

THEY ARE OKAY WITH SWITCHING JOBS AND THEY UNDERSTAND THAT LOYALTY ONLY GOES SO FAR.

A LOT OF TIME WE'RE LOYAL TO OUR COMPANY AND THEY'RE NOT SO MUCH LOYAL TO US.

EVEN AS I TALK TO MY YOUNG ADULTS -- I HAVE A DAUGHTER WHO IS WORKING IN A SITUATION AND IF SHE IS UNHAPPY, SHE GOES, I MIGHT LOOK FOR ANOTHER JOB.

MY GRANDMOTHER -- CAN YOU BELIEVE THIS?

WHEN I GOT THE JOB AT THE BALTIMORE POST, SHE WAS NOT HAPPY ABOUT THAT.

SHE WAS, LIKE, BECAUSE THE "SUN" HAS BEEN GOOD TO YOU.

AND WHO DIDN'T WANT TO WORK FOR THE "WASHINGTON POST."

AND MY GRANDMOTHER WAS YOU NEED TO BE LOYAL.

BUT NOW I THINK THIS GENERATION HAS IT ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

YOU KNOW WHAT?

DO A GOOD JOB, BRING YOUR "A" GAME, BUT MANAGE YOUR EXPECTATIONS THAT YOU ARE NOT -- THAT YOU CAN BE EXPENDABLE.

AND IF YOU'VE MANAGED THAT EXPECTATION, IT'S NOT LIKE IT IS GOING TO MAKE IT ANY EASIER BECAUSE IT WON'T, BUT AT LEAST YOU GO, YOU KNOW WHAT?

I KIND OF EXPECTED THIS.

THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS IN THE BUSINESS WORLD.

EVEN MYSELF, PEOPLE WILL SAY THINGS, YOU'VE BEEN AT THE "POST" FOR 30 YEARS, YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE A WORRY ABOUT ANYTHING.

UH-UH.

I THINK EVERY DAY ACT EVERY DAY LIKE I COULD GET FIRED.

I DON'T ACT OUT OF FEAR, BUT I MANAGE TO SAVE MONEY BECAUSE I KNOW I COULD LOSE MY JOB.

>> O'Connell: MICHELLE, IS IT STILL TRUE IF YOU GET LAID OFF TODAY, AND TO YOUR POINT, TO TAKE ACTION RIGHT AWAY, DON'T JUST WAIT.

CAN YOU CALL YOUR CREDIT COMPANIES OR LENDERS AND SAY, HEY, I GOT LAID OFF, CAN I PUT A PAUSE ON THIS?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

YOU MOST CERTAINLY CAN AND YOU SHOULD.

AND I UNDERSTAND MANY DON'T BECAUSE YOU'RE EMBARRASSED.

BUT IT SHOULD BE THE FIRST CALLS THAT YOU MAKE.

IF YOU DON'T HAVE ANOTHER JOB LINED UP, YOU CALL YOUR MORTGAGE COMPANY AND SAY I JUST GOT LAID OFF.

AND THEN YOU CAN ASK FOR FORBEARANCE, ESPECIALLY IF YOU'VE BEEN A GOOD MORTGAGE PAIR.

AND YOU CAN SAY I NEED A MONTH OR A COUPLE OF MONTHS UNTIL I FIGURE THINGS OUT.

CALL YOUR CREDIT CARD COMPANIES AND ASK THEM TO PUT YOUR PAYMENTS ON PAUSE.

AND IF YOU HAVE BEEN ROLLING THE CREDIT CARD DEBT, YOU CAN GO BACK TO THE MINIMUM PAYMENT.

AND THE MINIMUM PAYMENT ON CREDIT CARDS IS SO LOW, SO YOU COULD MANAGE THAT $20 OR $30 PAYMENT UNTIL YOU GET BACK ON YOUR FEET.

THAT'S THE OTHER THING.

MAYBE YOU WERE TRYING TO PAY AND YOU WERE AGGRESSIVE, AND YOU'RE GOING TO STOP THAT BECAUSE YOU'RE GOING TO NEED THAT CASH TO CARRY YOU THROUGH UNTIL YOU CAN GET ANOTHER JOB.

>> O'Connell: JUST TO FINISH THIS OFF AS WE LOOK AHEAD, DO YOU THINK THE LAYOFFS ARE DONE IN THIS SECTOR?

I KNOW THAT IS ALWAYS A TEMPORARY ANSWER EITHER WAY.

BUT DO YOU THINK OVER THE NEXT COUPLE OF QUARTERS THEY HAVE CLEARED OUT EVERYTHING THAT THEY EXPECT TO IN TERMS OF CUTTING COSTS, OR IS THIS SOMETHING WE SHOULD BUCKLE UP FOR FOR THE REST OF THE YEAR?

>> FOR THE FIRST HALF OF THE YEAR, WE SHOULD BUCKLE UP.

THERE ARE PLENTY OF BIG COMPANIES THAT HAVEN'T ANNOUNCED LAYOFFS AND THEY MOST CERTAINLY CAN.

>> O'Connell: OKAY, THANK YOU, MICHELLE AND DAN.

WE TOOK A DIFFERENT ROUTE -- >> THAT'S OKAY.

BECAUSE A LOT OF THINGS ARE RELATED TO YOUR MONEY.

>> O'Connell: THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING ME.

>> THANK YOU.

>> YOU'RE WELCOME.

>> O'Connell: THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT.

I'M SUE O'CONNELL.

THANKS FOR WATCHING.

GOOD NIGHT.