>>> HELLO AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & CO.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP .

THE INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE IMPOSES PROVISIONAL MEASURES ON ISRAEL OVER ITS WAR IN GAZA.

WE DISCUSS WHAT THIS RULING MEANS WITH THE REPORTER AT THE HAGUE AND WITH DAVID SHEPPARD WHO SERVED AS AMERICA'S FIRST AMBASSADOR AT LARGE FOR WAR CRIMES ISSUES.

>>> AS THE BLOODSHED CONTINUES, WHAT NEW EFFORTS ARE BEING MADE TO PROTECT PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS AND FREE IS REALLY HOSTAGES.

REPORTER JOINS US.

>>> ALSO -- >> I WAS SO ANXIOUS TO PLEASE, SO I WOULD NOT BE SENT TO THE GAS CHAMBER.

SMOKE AHEAD OF HOLOCAUST MEMORIAL DAY, WHO SURVIVED HIS HORRORS AND HER DAUGHTER, MARIANNE, ABOUT THE IMPACT OF INTERGENERATIONAL TRAUMA.

FINALLY ♪ >>> PULLING CARMEN INTO 21st CENTURY AMERICAN.

KERRY TALKS TO CHRIS JOHN ABOUT BRINGING THE MASTERPIECE BACK TO THE MET.

>>> AMANPOUR & CO IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WERE, THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LAYLA AND MICKEY STRAUSS, MARK J. BLECHNER, THE THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION, SETON J. MELVIN, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> I'M IN A NEW YORK CITY FILLING IN FOR CHRISTIANE .

>>> THE INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE RULING ON AN INTERIM BASIS AFTER SOUTH AFRICA BROUGHT A CASE AGAINST ISRAEL AT THE END OF LAST YEAR.

IT'S IMPORTANT TO NOTE THE COURT HAS NOT YET RULED ON WHETHER ISRAEL HAS COMMITTED GENOCIDE, THAT IS A DECISION WHICH COULD TAKE YEARS TO REACH, BUT TAKE A LISTEN TO SOME OF WHAT THE COURT HAD TO SAY.

>> ISRAEL MUST, IN ACCORDANCE WITH ITS OBLIGATIONS UNDER THE GENOCIDE CONVENTION, IN RELATION TO PALESTINIANS IN GAZA , TAKE ALL MEASURES WITHIN ITS POWER TO PREVENT THE COMMISSION OF ALL ACTS WITHIN THE SCOPE OF ARTICLE TWO OF THE CONVENTION IN PARTICULAR.

KILLING GROUPS OF MEMBERS OF THE GROUP, CAUSING SERIOUS BODILY OR MENTAL HARM TO MEMBERS OF THE GROUP.

>> THE ICA DID NOT CALL FOR AN IMMEDIATE CEASE-FIRE AND BOTH THE SOUTH AFRICAN PRESIDENT AND ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU ARE HAILING THE INTERIM RESULTS AS A VICTORY.

LET'S GET STRAIGHT TO THE DETAILS WITH MELISSA BELL WHO JOINS US FROM OUTSIDE THE COURT IN THE HAGUE, MELISSA, THE ISRAELIS WOULD HAVE LIKED FOR THIS CASE HAVE BEEN DISMISSED.

I GUESS THEY ARE TAKING A SIGH OF RELIEF AND NOT HEARING A CEASE-FIRE RULING FROM THIS COURT RIGHT NOW, BUT YOU ARE THERE AT THE HAGUE, TELL US WHAT YOU ARE HEARING AND WHAT YOU SAW IN TERMS OF THE REACTION.

>> Reporter: OUTSIDE THIS COURT IT WAS FASCINATING TO WATCH THE PRO-PALESTINIAN SUPPORTERS WHO GATHERED FURTHER DOWN THE STREET, PRO-ISRAEL SUPPORTERS AS WELL.

THEY READ OUT THE RULINGS, SERIES OF SIX MEASURES ANNOUNCING PART OF ITS RULING TODAY, CHEERS CAME UP FROM THE PRO-PALESTINIAN CROWD.

AS SHE SAID HERSELF, THE JUDGE, THIS CREATES LEGAL OBLIGATIONS FOR ISRAEL WHEN IT COMES TO ITS ACTIONS IN GAZA.

THAT IS OF COURSE SIGNIFICANT AND YOU ARE RIGHT TO POINT OUT THE CEASE-FIRE THAT SOUTH AFRICA HAD BEEN CALLING FOR WAS NOT PART OF THOSE MEASURES ORDERED BY THE COURT TODAY, AND YET, AS WE HEARD THE SOUTH AFRICAN FOREIGN MINISTER EXPLAINED AFTER THE RULING, ESSENTIALLY WHAT IT DID RULE WHAT AMOUNTED TO ISRAEL HAVING TO SUSPEND ITS HOSTILITIES TO ABIDE BY.

FOR INSTANCE, AVOIDING PREVENTING ANY FURTHER KILLING OF PALESTINIANS, THERE IN A BODILY SENSE OR MENTAL HARM , MEASURES ALSO AIMED AT GETTING AID INTO GAZA.

ONE OF THE MOST INTERESTING THINGS ABOUT THE DECISION TODAY WAS THAT UNANIMITY WITH WHICH SO MANY OF THE MEASURES OF THE COURT DECIDED ON WAS REACH IN FACT, THIS IS COURT MADE OUT OF 15 INTERNATIONAL JUDGES PLUS SOUTH AFRICA AND ISRAEL.

THE ISRAELI JUDGE ACTUALLY VOTED IN FAVOR OF TWO OF THE SIX RESOLUTIONS.

IT WAS A FAIRLY UNANIMOUS DECISION THEY ARRIVED AT AND ONE THAT WENT MUCH FURTHER THAN MANY PEOPLE HAD EXPECTED IT WOULD.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

I WANT TO GET MORE ON THIS FROM DAVID SCHIPPERS, FORMER U.S.

AMBASSADOR FOR WAR CRIMES ISSUES.

DAVID, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

WANTED TO GET YOUR REACTION TO THIS PRELIMINARY THAT THE RULING WE HEARD TODAY OBVIOUSLY ON THE ISSUE OF GENOCIDE THAT WILL TAKE YEARS TO DECIDE, BUT FROM WHAT WE HEARD TODAY FROM THE ICJ, ANY SURPRISES FROM YOU?

>> Reporter: NO SURPRISES AT ALL .

I THINK THE MOST INTERESTING ASPECT OF THE RULING IS ACTUALLY IN THE INDIVIDUAL DECLARATIONS BY CERTAIN JUDGES WHERE THEY DO EMPHASIZE POINTS THAT ARE NOT REALLY HIGHLIGHTED IN THE JUDGMENT ITSELF.

ONE OF THEM IS THE EXTREMELY HIGH BAR THAT IS SET FOR PROVING GENOCIDAL INTENT.

THE GERMAN JUDGE SAID, I DO NOT THINK SOUTH AFRICA HAS MET THE TEST OF PLAUSIBILITY ON GENOCIDAL INTENT BY ISRAEL, BUT I DO JOIN THE MAJORITY BECAUSE OF MY BELIEF THAT THESE INSIGHTFUL STATEMENTS OR ALLEGEDLY INSIGHTFUL STATEMENTS BY ISRAELI OFFICIALS DO NEED TO BE BROUGHT UNDER CONTROL AND THEY DO POSE A SERIOUS RISK THAT COULD BE ASSOCIATED WITH INTENT TO THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE.

AT THE SAME TIME, HE CAUTIONED, WE ARE IN A SITUATION OF WAR AND THAT DOESN'T .2 A CEASE- FIRE RULING, BUT RATHER A PAIRING OF THE ACTS OF GENOCIDE KILLING, ET CETERA, WITH THE GENOCIDAL ATTENDS.

THAT IS EXTREMELY DIFFICULT TO PROVE IN FRONT OF THE WORLD COURT AND PRIOR CASES HAVE DEMONSTRATED HOW DIFFICULT THAT HAS BEEN TO PROVE AND FRANKLY THERE ARE SEVERAL CASES WHERE IT WAS NEVER PROVED, THAT PAIRING OF GENOCIDAL ATTEMPT WITH THE DESTRUCTIVENESS IN KILLING OF WARFARE.

>> ISRAEL ASKED FROM THE BEGINNING FOR THIS CASE TO BE DISMISSED.

THAT IS NOT HOW THIS COURT RULED.

WAS AT THE RIGHT DECISION?

>> Reporter: I THINK IT WAS THE RIGHT DECISION THAT THERE BE NO CEASE-FIRE CALLED FOR BY THE COURT BECAUSE THIS IS A WARTIME SITUATION.

IT IS VERY DIFFERENT FROM EXAMPLE OF THE UKRAINE RUSSIA CASE BEFORE THE COURT WHERE RUSSIA WAS AN OUTRIGHT AGGRESSOR.

THERE WAS NO SELF-DEFENSE INVOLVED FOR THE COURT TO SAY, THAT SHOULD SEIZE.

THAT MILITARY CONDUCT SHOULD CEASE COMPLETELY.

WHERE AS IN THIS CASE, THERE IS A CLAIM OF SELF-DEFENSE BY ISRAEL, WHICH THE COURT ACKNOWLEDGES IF ONLY INDIRECTLY , THAT THERE IS A BASIS FOR COMBAT AND DURING COMBAT, IT IS INTERNATIONAL HUMANITARIAN LAW AND THE LAW OF WAR, WHICH CONTROLS.

YOU CAN SOMETIMES ATTACH GENOCIDE TO THAT, BUT YOU HAVE TO PROVE THAT GENOCIDAL ATTEMPT IN ORDER TO ASSOCIATE THE KILLING AND DESTRUCTION WITH THE WAR ITSELF AND WITH GENOCIDE.

SO, I THINK THAT WAS THE CORRECT FINDING BY THE COURT, NOT TO GO TO THE EXTENT OF CALLING FOR A CEASE-FIRE.

>> OVERALL, THIS DECISION HAS BEEN HAILED AS A VICTORY BY SOUTH AFRICA.

YET, HERE IS WHAT THE FOREIGN MINISTER SAID ABOUT THE DECISION TO STOP SHORT OF CALLING FOR A CEASE-FIRE.

>> I BELIEVE THAT IN EXERCISING THE ORDER, THERE WOULD HAVE TO BE A CEASE-FIRE.

WITHOUT IT, THE ORDER DOESN'T ACTUALLY WORK.

I WOULD HAVE WANTED A CEASE-FIRE.

>> WITHOUT THAT, THE COURT HAS ORDERED ISRAEL TO DO MORE TO PREVENT THE KILLING AND HARM OF PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS IN GAZA AND ACTUALLY TO REPORT BACK ON THAT ORDER, ON THAT MEASURE WITHIN A MONTHS TIME.

HOW DO YOU EXPECT ISRAEL TO RESPOND, BECAUSE ON THE ONE HAND THEY HAVE CONSTANTLY DENIED THESE ALLEGATIONS OF GENOCIDE, BUT AT THE SAME TIME THEY HAVE BEEN SAYING AS RICHLY AS TODAY THAT THEY DO ABIDE BY INTERNATIONAL LAW.

>> I WOULD EXPECT IN A MONTHS TIME ISRAEL TO IN FACT DELIVER THAT REPORT AND DEMONSTRATE THAT ALL OF THAT MILITARY ACTIVITIES IT IS TAKING IN GAZA IS IN COMPLIANCE WITH INTERNATIONAL HUMANITARIAN LAW AND IS NOT BEING PROSECUTED WITH ANY GENOCIDAL INTENT.

THEY ARE GOING TO HAVE TO DEMONSTRATE THAT MORE THAN SIMPLE STATEMENTS.

THEY HAVE TO PUT IN WRITING IN A CONVINCING WAY THEIR POSITION SO THAT SO MUCH OF THE WORLD IS PERSUADED TO THEIR POINT OF VIEW.

I WOULD SAY, OF THE COMMENTS I HAVE SEEN UTTERED TODAY, TRY MINISTER NETANYAHU'S COMMENT WAS REASONABLE, BUT HIS DEFENSE MINISTER AND NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER IMMEDIATELY CAME OUT WITH STATEMENTS SAYING THAT THE COURT IS ANTI-SOMATIC AND THAT THIS -- NO ONE WANTS TO LISTEN TO THESE JUDGES IN THEIR LEATHER CHAIRS.

THOSE ARE EXTREMELY UNFORTUNATE AND UNNECESSARY STATEMENTS FOR ISRAELI OFFICIALS TO BE MAKING.

RATHER, THEY ARE THERE BEFORE THE COURT AND SHOULD BE VERY RESPECTFUL OF THE COURT AND ALSO NOT IMMEDIATELY JUMP TO SOME ASSUMPTION THAT THE JUDGES ARE ACTING WITH ANTI-SOMATIC SENTIMENT.

>> ESPECIALLY SINCE THEY CHOSE TO PARTICIPATE AND TAKE THIS CASE VERY SERIOUSLY, IT'S A SLIGHT GOAL TO HAVE OFFICIALS WITHIN THE GOVERNMENT NOT TO TAKE THIS COURT SERIOUSLY AND DO SO PUBLICLY THE OFFICE OF THE PRIME MINISTER ORDERED MINISTERS NOT TO COMMENT ON THE RULING AND AS YOU NOTED, THE NATIONAL SECURITY ADMINISTER WROTE ON TWITTER, HAIG SCHOEMAKER.

IS THIS SOMETHING THAT THE COURT TAKES A LOOK AT ?

OBVIOUSLY, IT'S NOT THE MOST PROFESSIONAL THING FOR THEM TO BE DOING OR HELP THEIR CASE, BUT WHAT IMPACT DOES THIS HAVE ON THE COURT AS THEY CONTINUE THE INVESTIGATION?

>> Reporter: STRENGTHENS SOUTH AFRICA'S CLAIM THAT THERE IS A BASIS FOR INCITEMENT TO GENOCIDE WITHIN THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT THROUGH THESE STATEMENTS.

AND THE APPLICATION OF DECEMBER 29th, THEY LISTED 50 STATEMENTS BY ISRAELI OFFICIALS THAT CAN CALL INTO QUESTION, WHAT IS THE INTENT HERE?

ISRAEL NEEDS TO BE EXTREMELY CAREFUL TO REJECT ALL OF THOSE STATEMENTS AS THE COURT HAS REQUESTED THEM ESSENTIALLY TO DO, AND TO PREVENT THIS REPORT THAT COMES OUT AND 30 DAYS THAT THERE HAVE BEEN NO FURTHER EXPRESSIONS THAT COULD BE POSSIBLY INFERRED AS INCITEMENT TO GENOCIDE, RATHER THE GOVERNMENT IS TRYING TO DEMONSTRATE THAT IT IS IN A WAR , IT IS CONDUCTING OPERATIONS IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE LAW OF WAR AND INTERNATIONAL HUMANITARIAN LAW AND THERE IS NO GENOCIDAL INTENT WHATSOEVER.

THAT'S WITH THE GOVERNMENT OF ISRAEL SHOULD BE DOING.

>> ISRAEL AND THE IDF HAVE BEEN SAYING THAT THEY ARE ENTERING A NEW PHASE OF THE WAR, NOT NECESSARILY WINDING DOWN OF LOWER INTENSITY IN GAZA, AND AS WE KNOW, BOTH PRIVATELY AND PUBLICLY, THERE HAS BEEN PRESSURE FROM ISRAEL'S ALLIES, MOST NOTABLY THE UNITED STATES, TO PROTECT CIVILIANS AND BRING MORE TO BRING IT TO AN AND.

PUBLICLY, THE U.S.

IN RESPONSE TO THIS CASE CALLED IT MERITLESS , BUT BEHIND CLOSED DOORS, AS YOU KNOW, AND OFFICIALS YOU STILL SPEAK WITH, HOW DO YOU EXPECT THE U.S. TO RESPOND?

>> Reporter: WE MAY HEAR THAT RESPONSE IMMINENTLY HERE IN WASHINGTON.

EITHER FROM THE STATE DEPARTMENT OR WHITE HOUSE, BUT I WOULD CAUTION THE U.S. GOVERNMENT NOT TO REPEAT THOSE REMARKS THAT IT MADE WITH THE CASE APPLIED, RATHER THAT THIS RULING HAS NOW COME OUT, THAT FRANKLY ISRAEL HAS WON ON CERTAIN POINTS, SOUTH AFRICA HAS ONE ON CERTAIN POINTS AND THESE ARE REASONABLE PROVISIONAL MEASURES THAT THE COURT HAS RULED ON AND ALSO JUST TO NOTE THAT SEVERAL OF THE JUDGES IN THEIR DECLARATIONS ARE CAUTIONING DEEPLY HOW FAR THE COURTS SHOULD GO.

THIS SHOULD BE A VERY NARROW RULING UNDER THE GENOCIDE CONVENTION AND THAT SO FAR A LOT HAS NOT BEEN APPROVED BY SOUTH AFRICA WITH RESPECT TO THESE CHARGES.

THE COURT IS ACTING VERY RESPONSIBLY, RATHER CONSERVATIVELY AND ALSO STRESSING, WHICH IS THE REALITY , THIS IS A WAR AND OUTSIDE OF THE GENEVA CONVENTION, THE PARTIES INCLUDING HAMAS NEED TO RECOGNIZE THAT INTERNATIONAL HUMANITARIAN LAW MUST BE COMPLIED WITH.

I WOULD HOPE THAT THE U.S. GOVERNMENT DOES NOT FALL INTO THE TRAP OF JUST REPEATING WHAT WAS SAID BEFORE BY SENIOR OFFICIALS.

>> BECAUSE OF YOUR EXPERTISE, YOU ARE THE FIRST U.S.

AMBASSADOR AT LARGE FOR WAR CRIMES ISSUES THESE CASES ARE QUITE RARE BUT WHEN THEY HAVE BEEN BROUGHT IN THE PAST, THE ULTIMATE ISSUE OF GENOCIDE WILL BE DECIDED FOR YEARS, THE IDEA OF PROVISIONAL MEASURES IS AN INTERIM DECISION WEEKS AFTER WE HEARD THE CASE LAID OUT BY THE PROSECUTOR, PROSECUTION AND DEFENSE.

IS THAT COMMON?

>> Reporter: OH, YES, EXTREMELY COMMON.

IN FACT, IT'S NORMAL TO HAVE PROVISIONAL MEASURES WHETHER IT BE THE GENOCIDE CASES FROM BOSNIA AND CROATIA AGAINST SERBIA OR THE GENOCIDE CASE BY THAT GAMBIA AGAINST MYANMAR FOR THE ROUTE OF THE ROHINGYA ONTO BANGLADESH TERRITORY.

UNDER A GENOCIDE CHARGE.

THESE HAVE PROVISIONAL MEASURES.

THERE'S ABSOLUTELY NOTHING UNUSUAL ABOUT THIS.

THIS IS THE NORMAL PROCEDURE AND I THINK IN THIS CASE, THIS CAME OUT PRETTY FAIRLY FOR BOTH PARTIES.

IN OTHER WORDS, EVERYONE GOT SOMETHING HERE AND NOW THE POINT IS JUST PROCEED AND MAKE SURE THAT HUMANITARIAN ISSUES ARE RESOLVED AND THE COMBAT AGAINST HAMAS IS RESOLVED IN A WAY THAT ENDS THE WAR.

BY THE WAY, I SHOULD POINT OUT THE UGANDAN JUDGE DISSENTED ON THE ENTIRE ONE AND THE REASON SHE DID SO IS, SHE SAID, THIS IS NOT A LEGAL DISPUTE.

THIS IS A POLITICAL DISPUTE, AND THE PARTIES MUST SIT DOWN AND NEGOTIATE.

WHICH WOULD BE A COMMON U.S.

POSITION TO TAKE, TOO.

BUT THE POINT IS, SHE RECOGNIZED THERE IS SOMETHING TO REALLY TALK ABOUT AND RESOLVE HERE AND THE PARTIES NEED TO GET DOWN TO THAT BUSINESS.

>> I NOTICED THAT AS WELL, AS WELL AS THE ICJ SAYING PARTIES ARE BOUND BY INTERNATIONAL LAW AND THUS CALLING FOR THE IMMEDIATE RELEASE OF ALL REMAINING HOSTAGES.

DAVID, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> AS THE HAGUE MAKES ITS PRELIMINARY JUDGMENT AND THE WORK CONTINUES, HOSTAGE FAMILIES URGED THE WORLD NOT TO FORGET ABOUT THEIR LOVED ONES.

IN THE COMING DAYS, INTELLIGENCE CHIEFS FROM THE CIA, MOSSAD AND EGYPT WILL MEET WITH CARTER'S PRIME MINISTER TO TRY TO SECURE THE RELEASE OF ISRAEL IS KIDNAPPED BY HAMAS ON OCTOBER 7th.

EFFORTS TO MEDIATE HAVE NOT BEEN POPULAR.

PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU LABELED COTTER AS PROBLEMATIC AND IS.

HE JOINS US TO DISCUSS FROM CHEVY CHASE MARYLAND.

IS -- IT IS GOOD TO SEE YOU.

I WANT TO PICK UP ON THE ICJ RULING BUT JUST TO STICK WITH THIS ISSUE OF THE HOSTAGES BECAUSE IT IS SO IMPORTANT AND IT IS WORTH NOTING THAT THIS IS AN ISSUE THAT THE FAMILIES WOULD LIKE TO SEE FRONT AND CENTER EVERY SINGLE DAY AS THIS CONFLICT CONTINUES, HOW MUCH CLOSER FROM YOUR REPORTING ARE YOU HEARING THAT A DEAL COULD BE ?

>> Reporter: HI, I THINK WE ARE CLOSER, BUT IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THE DEAL IS IMMINENT OR GOING TO HAPPEN IN THE NEXT WEEK OR SO.

THERE ARE STILL A LOT OF HURDLES THAT WE NEED TO PASS.

JUST A FEW MINUTES AGO PRESIDENT BIDEN SPOKE TO HIM YOUR OF QATAR ABOUT THIS ISSUE AHEAD OF THE SUMMIT THAT WILL TAKE PLACE ON SUNDAY IN EUROPE BETWEEN THE CIA HEAD OF MOSSAD AND THE QATARI PRIME MINISTER TO BASICALLY TRY AND SEE HOW ON ALL THE STICKING POINTS, MAYBE THERE COULD BE SOME CREATIVE SOLUTIONS THAT CAN TAKE US FROM THE DEADLOCK WE ARE IN NOW AND GET INTO A MORE OF A NEGOTIATION THAT COULD LEAD TO A -- BECAUSE THAT IS NOT THE CASE AT THE MOMENT.

>> HOW MUCH OF AN IMPACT IF AT ALL DO THESE ALLEGED COMETS FROM PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU THAT WERE LEAKED REALLY CRITICIZING CUTTER PLAY IN ALL OF THESE?

I INTERVIEWED BARACK YESTERDAY AND HE SAID THAT WAS MISTAKE FOR NETANYAHU IF IN FACT IT WAS HIM ON THAT RECORDING.

SIGNIFICANT IN YOUR VIEW OR NOT?

>> Reporter: FIRST, THE RECORDING WAS ON NETANYAHU .

HE DID NOT DENY IT.

IT WASN'T SOME DEEP FAKE, SOME ROBOCALL, IT WAS NETANYAHU SPEAKING TO FAMILIES OF HOSTAGES AND CRITICIZING CARTER.

THERE ARE EVEN A LOT OF PEOPLE IN ISRAEL THAT SUSPECT THAT NETANYAHU IS THE ONE WHO LEAKED IT .

THE PRIME MINISTER'S OFFICE IS DENYING THIS.

OBVIOUSLY, THIS DOES NOT HELP BECAUSE UNTIL NOW THEY NEVER ATTACKED NETANYAHU SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THE WAR AND EVEN IF THERE WERE TENSIONS, THEY WERE UNDER THE TABLE AND DID NOT COME OUT INTO THE OPEN.

THIS DAY LIKE RIGHT NOW DOES NOT HELP.

ON THE OTHER HAND YOU SEE THIS MEETING IN EUROPE IS GOING TO TAKE PLACE ON SUNDAY REGARDLESS OF ALL OF THAT.

ANOTHER INTERESTING THING, THE PRIME MINISTER OF QATAR, THE DAY AFTER HIS MEETING IS COMING HERE TO WASHINGTON AND IT WILL BE VERY INTERESTING TO SEE WHAT IS THE READOUT HE'S GOING TO GIVE MEMBERS OF CONGRESS?

>> SPEAKING OF WASHINGTON, HE PUBLISHED A PIECE ABOUT THIS WAR AND THESE TWO COUNTRIES AND THE GROWING TENSION BETWEEN PRESIDENT BIDEN AND PRIME MINISTER YOU NETANYAHU WHAT BIDEN TELLING HIM THAT HE DOES NOT WANT THIS WAR FOR ANOTHER YEAR.

FOR OBVIOUS REASONS, ON A HUMANITARIAN STANDPOINT YOU WANT THIS WAR TO COME TO AN END, BUT POLITICALLY THERE ARE HUGE RAMIFICATIONS FOR THE PRESIDENT.

WHAT MORE ARE YOU HEARING ABOUT THE GROWING TENSION BETWEEN THESE TWO?

>> I THINK AS YOU SAID, THERE ARE TWO ISSUES, FIRST ON SUBSTANCE, BIDEN WANTS TO SEE AN END TO THE CIVILIAN CASUALTIES IN GAZA, TO THE HOSTAGE ISSUE IN GAZA, BUT THERE IS BIGGER THING HERE RIGHT NOW.

WE CAN'T SHY AWAY FROM THIS.

WHEN BIDEN TOLD NETANYAHU LAST FRIDAY THAT HE'S NOT IN IT FOR A YEAR OF WAR IN GAZA, IT IS CLEAR WHAT HE WAS POINTING OUT BECAUSE THE WAR STARTED IN OCTOBER OF 2023 AND THE ELECTIONS ARE IN NOVEMBER OF 2024.

IT'S CLEAR WHAT HE WAS HINTING AT AND SENIOR BIDEN OFFICIALS AND AIDES TOLD ME SEVERAL TIMES IN THE LAST FEW DAYS THAT THEY SEE EVERY DAY THE AMOUNT OF POLITICAL DAMAGE THEY GET AMONG YOUNG VOTERS IN AMERICA AND THEY SAY THEY JUST WANT THIS WAR TO STOP DOMINATING THE NEWS BECAUSE EVERY DAY THIS IS FRONT AND CENTER ON TV, IN THE U.S. AND NEWSPAPERS AND ONLINE.

THIS IS CAUSING THEM HUGE POLITICAL DAMAGE.

>> AND THAT RAISES THE QUESTION OF JUST HOW MUCH LONGER NETANYAHU HAS IN TERMS OF A POLITICAL CAREER.

WE KNOW HOW UNPOPULAR HE IS AT HOME AND HIS APPROVAL RATINGS, IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO CALL FOR A NEW ELECTION AND A LOT OF THINGS HAVE TO COME INTO PLACE FOR THAT TO HAPPEN, HAVING SAID THAT, I WANT TO PLAY THIS SOUND FOR MY INTERVIEW WITH EHUD WHO HAS CALLED FOR ELECTIONS AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

>> I CALL UPON THE GENERALS FORMER HEADS OF THE IDF WHICH HAVE JOINED RIGHTLY SO TO STAND UP AND TELL NETANYAHU , WE DEMAND TO SET AN ELECTION DATE AT MOST, EARLY JUNE AND WE ARE CALLING UPON OTHER LEADERS OF THE OPPOSITION WHO WILL STAND UP.

>> IS CALLING IT AN EXISTENTIAL THREAT THE LONGER THAT NETANYAHU STATED OFFER YOU THIS OFFICE.

WITH THE LIKELIHOOD IT WILL TAKE EFFECT?

>> I THINK THE TWO GENERALS, I THINK THEY SEE THINGS LIKE BARACK DOES EVEN THOUGH THEY DON'T SAID PUBLICLY AND THEY ARE LOOKING FOR AN OFFRAMP FROM THIS COALITION BECAUSE THEY NOW HAVE AROUND 40 SEATS IN ALL THE POLLS AND THEY DON'T WANT TO LEAVE THE COALITION IN THE WAY THAT WILL BASICALLY MAKE A LOT OF PEOPLE STOP SUPPORTING THEM AND MAYBE EVEN GOING BACK TO SUPPORT NETANYAHU.

ARE LOOKING FOR THE RIGHT TIME, AND FOR THEM, THE RIGHT TIME IS AFTER THERE IS SOME SORT OF DEAL ON THE RELEASE OF HOSTAGES.

ONCE THIS HAPPENS, THEY CAN SAY, THIS IS WHY WE WENT TO THE GOVERNMENT.

WE MANAGED TO GET ONE DEAL ON THE HOSTAGES, SECONDED ON THE HOSTAGES, AND NOW WE CAN LEAD THE COALITION AND CALL FOR AN ELECTION.

A LOT OF PEOPLE -- BIG PARTS OF THE RESIGNEDLY PUBLIC SUPPORT BOTH OF THEM DON'T GO TO THE STREETS BECAUSE THEY SAY THEY ARE STILL IN THE GOVERNMENT.

ONCE THEY LEAVE THE GOVERNMENT, THIS WILL BE A SORT OF CALLSIGN AND TRIGGER FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE TO SAY, OKAY, NOW WE ARE GOING BACK TO THE STREETS AND CALLING FOR AN ELECTION AND NETANYAHU'S RESIGNATION.

>> SINEX QUESTION WHAT IS NETANYAHU PRIORITIZING ?

THERE WOULD BE CAUSE FOR AN ELECTION OR KEEPING THIS GOING FOR AS LONG AS POSSIBLE?

>> IF YOU LOOK AT ALL THE POLLS IN ISRAEL THE LAST TWO WEEKS, PUBLIC IS VERY CLEAR ON THAT QUESTION.

MORE THAN 50% AND EVERY VOTE THINK NETANYAHU IS FIRST AND FOREMOST CONCERNED ABOUT HIS POLITICAL SURVIVAL AND NOT ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE.

>> THAT IS DISCONCERTING.

THANK YOU, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>>> NOW AS THE WORLD SEEKS TO UNDERSTAND THE DEFINITION OF GENOCIDE AND HOW TO PREVENT IT WHILE ALSO REFLECTING ON ISRAEL'S HISTORY, WE LOOK AHEAD TO INTERNATIONAL HOLOCAUST REMEMBERED TODAY THE SATURDAY AND ITS MESSAGE IS PERHAPS MORE IMPORTANT THAN EVER WITH ACTS OF ANTI-SEMITISM RISING GLOBALLY.

IS EAGER WAS JUST 16 YEARS OLD WHEN SHE WAS SENT TO AUSCHWITZ CONCENTRATION CAMP BUT WHAT SHE SAW REMAINED A SECRET FOR MANY YEARS.

INTERNATIONALLY RENOWNED PSYCHOLOGIST, SHE DEVOTES HER LIFE TO HELPING PEOPLE HEAL FROM THEIR TRAUMA.

IS ENTERED DAUGHTER MARION JOINT WALTER ISAACSON TO DISCUSS THE POWER OF FORGIVENESS, HER BEST SELLING BOOK THE CHOICE AND WHY TELLING HER STORY SET HER FREE.

THIS INTERVIEW AS PART OF EXPLORING HATE THEM OUR ONGOING SERIES ON ANTI-SEMITISM, RACISM AND EXTREMISM.

>> THANK YOU.

WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

WE ARE DELIGHTED TO BE HERE.

>> SATURDAY IS HOLOCAUST REMEMBRANCE DAY.

A LOT OF PEOPLE NOW, ESPECIALLY YOUNGER PEOPLE THINK OF THE HOLOCAUST AS WAY BACK IN HISTORY .

DIDN'T REMEMBER ANYTHING ABOUT IT, BUT DR. EDIE, AS YOU CALL YOURSELF, YOU WERE THERE.

I WANT YOU TO TELL US ABOUT THE STORY SO WE NEVER FORGET EUROPE TELLS ABOUT AUSCHWITZ AND MAYBE START WITH THAT CATTLE CAR GOING TO AUSCHWITZ.

>> THE CATTLE CAR WAS VERY CROWDED AND MY MOTHER WAS SITTING ON A BENCH, MY FATHER WAS SITTING ON THE FLOOR WITH THE GIRLS.

I BEGGED MY FATHER TO SHAVE SO HE WOULD LOOK YOUNGER, BUT HE DIDN'T LISTEN TO ME.

WHEN WE ARRIVED, I WAS MET WITH A SIGN.

MY FATHER WAS VERY ENCOURAGING THAT WE ARE JUST GOING TO WORK A LITTLE WHILE AND THEN WE GO HOME.

AND OF COURSE, THAT DID NOT HAPPEN.

BUT MY MOM TOLD ME, AND I LIKE TO QUOTE HER TODAY THAT, EVERYTHING CAN BE TAKEN AWAY FROM A HUMAN BEING EXCEPT WHAT THEY PUT IN THEIR MIND, AND THAT REALLY KEPT ME GOING.

THIS IS TEMPORARY AND I'M GOING TO MAKE IT NO MATTER WHAT.

SO, I DID A LOT OF CRYING AND I THINK THAT WAS USEFUL FOR ME TO LOOK AT LIFE FROM INSIDE OUT.

>> ON THE VERY FIRST DAY YOU WERE AT THE DEATH CAMP OF AUSCHWITZ, YOUR PARENTS ARE KILLED.

THERE IS SOMETHING VERY POIGNANT THAT HAPPENED, WHICH IS THEY COME TO YOU AND YOU ARE WITH YOUR SISTER AND THEY POINT TO YOUR MOTHER AND SAY, IS THAT YOUR MOTHER OR YOUR SISTER?

TELL ME WHAT HAPPENED THEN.

>> YOU WERE IN LINE AND YOU AND YOUR SISTER WERE TOGETHER WITH YOUR MOTHER IN BETWEEN YOU.

AND YOU SAW THIS MAN IN THE WHITE SUIT.

>> YES, THE MAN IN THE WHITE SUIT WAS DR. MANGA AND HE POINTED, YOU EITHER GO TO THE LEFT OR YOU GO TO THE RIGHT.

UNFORTUNATELY, IT WAS MY MOTHER AND SO POINTED TO THE LEFT AND MY SISTER AND I TO THE RIGHT AND I FOLLOWED MY MOM AND HE GRABBED ME, I WILL NEVER FORGET THOSE EYES, HE SAID YOU WILL SEE YOUR MOTHER REALLY SOON.

SHE IS JUST GOING TO TAKE A SHOWER.

>> AND THEY WERE DOING THAT BECAUSE THEY WERE KILLING THE OLDER PEOPLE, AND BY HAVING REFERRED TO THE WOMAN AS YOUR MOTHER, THEY REALIZED SHE WAS OLDER.

DID THAT MAKE YOU FEEL GUILT OVER THE YEARS OR SURVIVOR'S REMORSE?

>> TREMENDOUS GUILT.

BUT OF COURSE YOU CANNOT CHANGE THE PAST.

IT DID HAPPEN AND I REMEMBER MY SISTER, I ASKED WHEN WILL I SEE MY MOTHER?

THE GUARD SAID, SHE IS BURNING THERE, POINTING AT THE CHIMNEY.

AND SO, THAT'S HOW I ENTERED AUSCHWITZ AND IT WAS THE MIDDLE OF MAY, 1944.

>> IN YOUR BEAUTIFUL BOOK, THE CHOICE, YOU TALK ABOUT DANCING FOR DR. JOSEPH MINGHELLA.

TELL ME ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS WHEN HE COMES IN AND WHEN YOU SEE HIM.

TELL ME THE STORY ABOUT DANCING FOR DR. JOSEPH MINGHELLA.

>> HE WELCOMED US VERY WARMLY AND WANTED TO KNOW WHO IS TALENTED, BECAUSE HE WOULD LIKE TO BE ENTERTAINED.

AND SO FRIENDS THAT I KNEW, BECAUSE I DANCE FOR THE COMMUNITY WHERE I LIVE.

THEY PUT ME IN FRONT OF HIM AND VERY FRIENDLY HE SAID, DANCE FOR ME, DANCE FOR ME.

I BEGAN TO SAY TO MYSELF, YOU BETTER BE GOOD.

I DID A SPLIT RIGHT AWAY.

I DID A VERY GOOD ONE.

I CAN THROW MY FEET IN THE FRONT AND FROM THE BACK AS WELL.

I WISH I COULD HAVE A PICTURE FOR YOU, MAYBE SOMEWHERE THEY WERE FILMING.

>> YOU DANCED TO TCHAIKOVSKY AND THAT HE GAVE YOU BITS OF BREAD.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT.

>> I WAS FRIGHTENED TO DEATH.

I WAS SO ANXIOUS TO PLEASE, SO I WOULD NOT BE SENT TO THE GAS CHAMBER.

IT WAS A VERY CHALLENGING AND DIFFICULT UNPREPARED EVENT.

>> WHAT DID YOU DO IN THE CAMP?

YOU AND YOUR SISTER, TO KEEP YOURSELF ALIVE, TO KEEP GOING?

>> WE HAD TO UNDRESS THE PEOPLE WHO WERE LYING DEAD.

WE ALWAYS TOOK CARE OF THE TEETH OF EVERYONE.

IT WAS VERY SCARY BECAUSE WE DIDN'T KNOW WAS GOING TO HAPPEN IN THE NEXT MINUTE.

WE DID NOT KNOW WHERE WE WERE GOING TO END UP, BUT STAYING ALIVE WAS THE GOAL.

WE HAVE A LOT OF HUMOR, SARCASM THAT WE USED.

CYNICISM AND ALL THAT, JUST TO BE SURE THAT THIS IS TEMPORARY AND WE ARE GOING TO MAKE IT.

HOPE WAS NEVER GIVEN UP.

AND TODAY I HAVE THREE CHILDREN, FIVE GRANDCHILDREN, AND SEVERAL GREAT GRANDSONS, AND THAT IS MY REVENGE TO HITLER.

>> IN MAY OF 1945, THE ALLIES COME IN TO LIBERATE THE PEOPLE OF THE CAMP I THINK IT WAS AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN SOLDIER WHO HELPED SAVE YOU AND YOU WERE UNDERNEATH A PILE OF CORPSES.

>> I FELT SOMEONE'S HAND AND I LOOKED UP AND I SAW TEARS IN HIS EYES.

YES, I LOOKED UP AND IT WAS A MAN OF COLOR.

I WISH I COULD SEE HIM NOW.

HE MUST BE IN HIS LATE 90s FOR SURE.

>> YOU DISCOVERED ON YOUR OWN ABOUT YOUR MOTHER'S HISTORY IN THE DEATH CAMPS.

TELL ME HOW YOU DISCOVERED IT, WHAT YOU FELT, AND THEN WHAT YOU SAID TO HER.

>> WHEN I WAS ABOUT 12, AT THAT POINT I WAS READING GROWN-UP BOOKS.

I STARTED TO LOOK BEHIND SOME OF THE BOOKS IN ONE OF THE BOOKCASES AND I FOUND THIS BIG BOOK AND I TOOK IT OUT AND IT HAD THE MOST DISGUSTING HORRIBLE PICTURES I HAD EVER SEEN.

THEY WERE SO FRIGHTENING.

I DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT MY MOTHER BEING IN AUSCHWITZ, BUT I KNEW MY MOTHER HAD A DEEP SADNESS IN HER, AND THERE WAS SOMETHING IN HER EYES THAT WAS ALWAYS A LITTLE SAD.

SHE WAS THE WARMEST.

ALL MY FRIENDS LOVED HER.

SHE WAS A WARM WONDERFUL MOTHER BUT I COULD JUST SEE THAT.

WHEN I SAW THESE PICTURES, IT WAS HORRIFIC.

I WENT STRAIGHT TO MY FATHER AND SAID, DADDY, WHAT IS THIS BOOK AND WAS MOM THERE?

AND HE SAT ME DOWN AND HE SAID, THIS WAS AUSCHWITZ AND YES YOUR MOTHER WAS THERE.

AND I OF COURSE WAS AMAZED, IN A WAY NOT AS SURPRISED AS YOU MIGHT THINK, BUT ALSO SHOCKED.

AND THEN MY MOTHER FOUND OUT THAT MY FATHER HAD TOLD ME AND SHE WAS FURIOUS.

>> WAIT, WHY WERE YOU FURIOUS, DR. EDIE?

>> BECAUSE I KEPT IT A SECRET BECAUSE I WANTED TO ASSIMILATE AND I DIDN'T WANT ANYBODY TO LABEL ME A CERTAIN WAY OR FEEL SORRY FOR ME THAT I WAS IN AUSCHWITZ.

PRETENDING AN IMAGE OF ME THAT WASN'T MY TRUE SELF.

>> FOR MANY YEARS AFTER YOU COME TO THE UNITED STATES, YOU DIDN'T TALK TO CHILDREN ABOUT IT.

YOU KEPT IT A SECRET AND YOU BECAME A PSYCHOLOGIST AND WERE HELPING VIETNAM VETERANS DEAL WITH POSTTRAUMATIC STRESS.

TELL ME HOW YOU THEN DECIDED TO DEAL WITH YOUR OWN PTSD.

>> BECAUSE I WAS HONEST WITH MYSELF THAT I CREATED A PERSON, A HISTORY THAT WAS NOT THE TRUTH , AND I BEGAN TO USE MY PAST, ACTUALLY, TO LET PEOPLE KNOW SO THAT THEY CAN REMEMBER AND REVISIT A PLACE WHERE THEY HAVE BEEN AND RELIVE AND REVISE YOUR LIFE.

>> YOU HAD TO GO BACK TO AUSCHWITZ.

YOU WENT AS AN ADULT, BACK TO AUSCHWITZ.

IS THAT WHY?

>> YES.

TO ME, IT WAS IMPORTANT TO GO TO A PLACE AND TOUCH THAT PLACE THAT I WAS SURE THAT THIS WAS TEMPORARY.

TODAY I DO RECOMMEND DEFINITELY TO EVERYONE TO REVISIT WHERE YOU HAVE BEEN, RELIVE THAT EXPERIENCE, BUT DON'T SET UP HOUSE THERE.

>> MARIANNE, YOU BECAME A PSYCHOLOGIST , GOT HER DOCTORATE AND THEN YOUR MOTHER ALSO DID THAT AFTERWARD.

TELL ME HOW YOU PROCESSED AND WATCHED HER CHANGE AFTER THE VISIT TO AUSCHWITZ.

>> SHE WENT BACK TO THE AREA WHERE SHE HAD BEEN LIVING AND SHE SAW A MAN IN A UNIFORM AND SHE STARTED TO PANIC.

THE OLD FEAR CAME BACK AND SHE STARTED TO GET VERY PANICKY AND THEN SHE SUDDENLY REMEMBERED THAT SHE HAD A PURSE AND IN THE PURSE WAS AN AMERICAN PASSPORT.

SHE COULD LEAVE AUSCHWITZ.

THIS MAN WORKED THERE AND HE COULDN'T.

MY FATHER, WHO WAS WITH HER WHEN SHE WALKED OUT SAID THAT SHE HOPPED, SKIPPED, JUMPED, DID CARTWHEELS AND WHAT HAPPENED AFTERWARDS IS THAT HER FACE CHANGE.

HER EYES DIDN'T HAVE THAT FEAR IN THEM ANYMORE AND IT WAS A PROFOUND, REALLY.

AND THEN HER ABILITY TO HELP PEOPLE, SHE GOT HER PHD IN HER 50s.

ANYBODY WHO IS WATCHING THIS, WHATEVER DREAM YOU HAVE, LOOK AT MY MOTHER.

WHAT SHE HAS ACCOMPLISHED.

YOU CAN AND SHE DID AND SHE HAS.

SO, I'M SO PROUD OF HER.

SHE HAS HAD A PHENOMENAL CHANGE BECAUSE SHE LET HERSELF ACCEPTED.

>> DR. EDIE, WHY DID YOU WANT TO WRITE A BOOK SO BADLY?

>> I WAS READY AND RELYING ON THE STORY BEING TOLD HOW GOOD PEOPLE DO SUCH TERRIBLE, VERY BAD THINGS.

I THINK THAT WAS MY DUTY TO MY PARENTS SO THEY DID NOT DIE IN VAIN.

>> WHAT YOU CALL THEM GOOD PEOPLE?

>> BECAUSE I DON'T THINK WE ARE BORN WITH SIN.

I THINK WE ARE BORN AND WE LEARN , WE LEARN TO HATE.

>> HOW DID YOUR LESSONS, OF SURVIVING AUSCHWITZ, SURVIVING THE DEATH OF YOUR MOTHER, SURVIVING ALL THIS, GIVE YOU LESSONS THAT WE CAN LEARN TODAY?

>> IT'S YOUR ATTITUDE.

IT'S THE KEYWORD.

THE WAY YOU LOOK AT EVERYTHING AS AN OPPORTUNITY AND AUSCHWITZ WAS A CLASSROOM AND AN OPPORTUNITY FOR AN OPPORTUNITY, FOR ME TO DEVELOP THE SKILLS THAT I CAN NOW USE TO GUIDE OTHER PEOPLE ALONG THE IDEA OF GUIDE.

I LIKE BEING A THERAPIST.

IT'S A FEELING THAT HELPS YOU TO RECOGNIZE THAT NO MATTER WHAT, YOU ARE NOT A VICTIM.

THAT IS NOT YOUR IDENTITY.

>> MARIANNE, HOW HAS YOUR MOTHER'S STORY IMPACTED YOUR FAMILY?

AND WHY IS IT IMPORTANT TO THEM AFTER SO MANY YEARS?

>> MY GOODNESS, YOU ARE MAKING ME TEARY ASKING THE QUESTION.

FOR ME, I THINK MY MOTHER BEING SO HONEST ABOUT HERSELF AND HER OWN HISTORY AND TALKING TO THE CHILDREN ABOUT IT AND THE FACT THAT SHE WAS ABLE TO WRITE THESE BOOKS AND TELL AND ALL THE GREAT GRANDCHILDREN CAN ASK HER WHATEVER THEY WANT AS WELL AS OUR CHILDREN, TOO.

I THINK IT HAS MADE THE BIGGEST DIFFERENCE IN THEIR LIVES AND THEIR UNDERSTANDING OF THE WAY THE WORLD CAN BE SUCH A HORRIBLE PLACE TO PEOPLE IT ALSO SUCH A LOVING PLACE, BECAUSE SHE IS SO LOVING.

SO, SHE HAS HAD THIS OPENNESS WITH THEM ALWAYS.

I THINK IT IS CRITICAL TO HOW THEY SEE THE WORLD, AND FOR ALL OF THE PEOPLE WATCHING THIS, I KNOW MANY OF YOU HAVE PARENTS OR MAYBE YOU ARE PARENTS, WHO WON'T TELL YOUR CHILDREN YOUR STORY.

PLEASE, DO IT.

THE DIFFERENCE IT HAS MADE IN OUR FAMILY IS GREAT.

>> DR. EDITH EAGER, DR. MARIANNE , THANK YOU BOTH SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>> WHAT AN INCREDIBLE INTERVIEW AND AMAZING WOMAN.

JUST HER STRENGTH AND ALL OF THESE YEARS LATER TO CARRY SO MUCH LOVE IN HER HEART AND SAY THAT STAYING ALIVE WAS THE GOAL.

HER DAUGHTER IS RIGHT, IT'S SO IMPORTANT TO TELL THESE STORIES .

80 YEARS AFTER THE HOLOCAUST AND WORLD WAR II, THERE ARE ONLY ABOUT 245,000 SURVIVORS LEFT.

WE SHOULD NEVER FORGET THEIR STORIES.

>>> FINALLY, A FRESH TAKE ON A FAMILIAR TALE.

CLASSIC OPERA CARMEN IS GETTING A BOLD MAKEOVER AT THE METROPOLITAN OPERA.

DIRECTOR CARRIE IS SEEKING TO MODERNIZE THE FIERY LOVE AFFAIR GONE WRONG, FOCUSING ON IMPORTANT ISSUES FROM DOMESTIC ABUSE TO BREAKING SOCIETAL NORMS .

HERE IS A CLIP.

[ SINGING IN GLOBAL LANGUAGE ] >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

CARMEN IS WELL KNOWN.

ANYBODY WHO LOVES OPERA LOVE FOR ITS TRADITION, OR THE OPERAS AND THE TUNES.

YOU HAVE COMPLETELY MOVED IT BASICALLY FROM 19th CENTURY SPAIN TO MODERN-DAY AMERICA.

HE MOVED THE SETTING, CIGARETTE FACTORY TO AN ARMS FACTORY.

WHY?

>> THE PIECE IS LOVED PARTLY BECAUSE OF THE ART OF THE MUSIC AND SCALE OF THE STORY, EMOTIONAL LANDSCAPE AND OF COURSE PEOPLE HAVE QUITE A TRADITIONAL AND EMOTIONAL PICTURE IN THEIR MIND OF CARMEN , BUT ONE OF THE THINGS I LOVE TO DO IN MY WORK IS TRY AND MAKE PIECES FROM ANOTHER TIME FEEL AS IF THEY WERE WRITTEN NOW AND CONNECT WITH THE CONTEMPORARY AUDIENCE AND WITH THE DESIGN TEAM WE WERE LOOKING FOR WAYS TO DRAW AN AUDIENCE AND A DIFFERENT WAY AND ASK THEM TO RESPOND TO THE MATERIAL IN THE SLIGHTLY FRESH WAY.

>> FOR THOSE WHO NEVER HEARD OF CARMEN, WHAT IS IT ABOUT THE STORY THAT IS SO COMPELLING?

HER AND DON JOSE AND THE WHOLE FEMALE AND THE -- ALL OF THAT KIND OF STUFF >> IT'S A PURGATIVE -- TALKATIVE SEXUAL DARK STORY ABOUT A MISGUIDED RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN A MAN AND WOMAN WHO WANT TO BE TOGETHER BUT CAN'T FIND A GOOD CONNECTION.

SHE THEN LEAVES THEM AND HAS AN AFFAIR WITH SOMEBODY ELSE.

AND DESTROYED BY THIS JEALOUSY, HE ENDS KILLING CARMEN AT THE END OF THE OPERA.

THERE IS A SORT OF MYTHIC QUALITY TO THE PIECE AND IT IS CONNECTED TO THIS MUSIC, WHICH IS SO FAMOUS AND SO POWERFUL AND SO THE COMBINATION OF THOSE TWO THINGS HAS BEEN VERY COMPELLING FOR AUDIENCES.

>> I WANT TO PLAY A CLIP FROM ONE OF THE BEST-KNOWN TUNES AND THEN WE WILL TALK ABOUT IT.

>> [ SINGING IN GLOBAL LANGUAGE ] ♪ >> IT'S VERY ROUSING AND FAMILIAR, PARTICULARLY THAT ONE, BUT IT IS ALSO ATTRACTING, AS YOU SAID, THE REGULAR STORY LINE OF WOMAN, MAN, WOMAN GETS KILLED, WOMAN DIES.

THIS HAPPENS A LOT THROUGH LITERATURE OF THE AGES, OPERA AND ALL THE REST.

WHAT IS YOUR TAKE ON THAT?

>> I THINK THE CENTRAL IDEA OF A MAN KILLING A WOMAN ON SOME LEVEL BECAUSE SHE DESERVES IT OR TO PUNISH HER OR HISTORICALLY WE WOULD USE GRANDMA PASSION, WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT THIS IS, IT'S REALLY DEEP IN THE DNA OF STORYTELLING CULTURE.

>> YOU MEAN BECAUSE SHE DESERVES IT ON ANY LEVEL.

>> THAT THE MYTHIC IDEA THAT BECAUSE SHE DEVIATES FROM THE NORM, SHE IS PROVOCATIVE AND RAISIN.

IN THE TIME IT WAS COMPLETELY SHOCKING.

>> SHE IS A LIBERATED WOMAN.

>> SHE'S LIBERATED AND DOES WHAT SHE WANTS.

SHE'S OBSESSED WITH FREEDOM.

IN THE PIECE, THAT PROVOKES THE MEN AROUND HER AND ULTIMATELY LEADS HIM TO DESTROY HER.

I THINK THAT IS A COMPLEX AND PROBLEMATIC CENTRAL IDEA.

ONE OF THE THINGS I WAS INTERESTED AT LOOKING AT IN THE PRODUCTION IS, WHY DO WE KEEP TELLING THE STORY AND HOW DOES THAT ACTION BECOME BIGGER THAN JUST ONE MAN AND ONE WOMAN?

HOW DO WE LOOK AT THAT AS A PART OF OF BROADER OF AUDIENCE.

>> THIS DEBUTED ON NEW YEAR'S EVE AND IS WHERE THE RUSSIAN SOPRANO 27-YEAR-OLD SOPRANO AUCH MED, SHE'S GOT A REALLY ROBUST VOICE.

IT'S AMAZING.

HOW DID YOU CAST HER, RECRUIT HER?

WHAT MADE HER PERFECT FOR THIS ROLE?

>> SHE'S A RISING STAR PICK PEOPLE FEEL SHE IS THE REAL DEAL.

SHE'S AN EXTRAORDINARY SINGER, BUT APART FROM THAT, SHE'S ALSO THIS INCREDIBLE ACTRESS.

IS VERY VISCERAL AND TAKES BIGGER RISKS THAN MANY PEOPLE EVER WILL.

SHE STANDS ON TOP OF A GAS STATION.

SHE THROWS HERSELF AROUND THE SPACE AND SOMEWHERE IN HER IS A VERY DEEP CONNECTION TO THE CHARACTER OF CARMEN.

SHE'S REALLY BUT A LOT OF HERSELF TO THE ROLE.

>> AS YOU KNOW, RUSSIAN GRATIS WERE SHUNNED AND CANCELED AFTER THE ILLEGAL INVASION OF UKRAINE.

IS THAT GONE NOW?

ARE RUSSIANS WELCOME?

WOULD YOU CHOOSE HER CONTROVERSIAL?

>> SHE TALKS ABOUT THE DESTRUCTION OF HER COMMUNITY AND HOW MUCH HER VILLAGE ON THE BORDER ARE REALLY SUFFERING.

HOW MANY YOUNG MEN THEY LOST IN THE WAR.

IT'S QUITE COMPLEX.

SHE WAS CAST BY THE MET BUT I FEEL VERY SUPPORTIVE OF HER AND HER JOURNEY.

SHE HAS BEEN LIVING IN LONDON FOR THE LAST 10 YEARS AND FEELS THAT IS HER HOME.

I FEEL LIKE IT HAS BEEN A VERY POWERFUL THING FOR HER TO BRING HER HISTORY BACK STORY, TRAUMA AND SUFFERING FROM HER CHILDHOOD INTO THIS INCREDIBLE ROLE.

>> THERE ARE CERTAIN AFICIONADOS WHO REJECT ANY MODERNIZATION OF BELOVED CLASSICS.

HAVE YOU HAD THAT?

HAS THERE BEEN THAT BACKLASH?

YOU DO IT BECAUSE YOU WANT TO MAKE THESE CLASSICS ACCESSIBLE TO PEOPLE WHO MAY NOT READ CARMEN OR LISTEN TO THE ORIGINAL.

>> I THINK OPERA NEEDS TO MOVE FORWARD AND FIND NEW AUDIENCES.

THERE ARE MANY BEAUTIFUL, IMPECCABLE PERIOD PRODUCTIONS.

I THINK YOUNGER AUDIENCES AND DIFFERENT AUDIENCES ARE LOOKING FOR OTHER WAYS OF ACCESSING THIS MATERIAL, AND OF COURSE IT RUFFLES FEATHERS AND NOT EVERYBODY LOVES THIS TAKE, BUT I THINK IF THE FORM WANTS TO CONTINUE BEING RELEVANT, IT NEEDS TO SEEK OUT THOSE NEW CONVERSATIONS.

>> I SPOKE TO RENEE FLEMING, SHE STARRED IN THE HOURS AND SHE SAID THAT OLDER OPERAS OFTEN REFLECT THE TIMES THEY WERE MADE IN AND YOUR PRODUCTION IN THIS CASE EXPOSES THEMES LIKE MALE UNEMPLOYMENT, GENDERED HARASSMENT, VIOLENCE TOWARDS WOMEN AS YOU DISCUSS.

LET'S PLAY WHAT RENEE FLEMING TOLD ME ABOUT THIS.

>> HISTORICALLY, WOMEN WERE PROPERTY.

THEY WERE MARGINALIZED.

THEY WERE THE SUBJECTS OF STORIES BUT NOT NECESSARILY ACTIVE PARTICIPANTS WITH AGENCY.

UNLESS THEY WERE CRAZY OR WERE SORCERESSES.

THOSE ARE REALLY GOOD ROLES.

BUT, A LOT OF MAD SCENES HAVE ENDED OPERAS IN HISTORY.

TO DO SOMETHING THAT IS RELEVANT THAT TELLS A COMPLEX HISTORY OF WOMEN, A TRUE MORE REALISTIC PICTURE AND A RELEVANT PICTURE OF WOMEN'S LIVES IS SOMETHING I REALLY TRY TO CREATE IN THE REPERTOIRE IN THE MUSIC I CHOOSE.

>> WE TALKED A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT BUT EXPAND.

>> I THINK WHAT'S REALLY INTERESTING AS A FEMALE DIRECTOR IS TRYING TO APPROACH WORK THAT COMES FROM ANOTHER TIME BUT SEE IT THROUGH A FEMALE LENS OR FEMINIST LENS IN THIS CASE.

OF COURSE, WE UNDERSTAND WOMEN AS PROPERTY AND IN THIS CASE CARMEN IS NOT.

SHE'S TRYING TO BREAK OUT OF THAT STRUCTURE.

THAT'S WHERE SHE GETS INTO DIFFICULTY.

AND, I THINK A LOT OF THE THEMES IN THE PIECE ARE RELEVANT NOW.

IT'S ABOUT PEOPLE WHO ARE DISPOSSESSED ON THE FRINGES.

IT'S ABOUT A WOMAN WHO DOESN'T HAVE ECONOMIC POWER SO SHE USES HER SEXUALITY TO TRY AND FIND HER WAY AND HAVE AGENCY.

OF COURSE, THAT STILL HAPPENS ALL OVER THE WORLD.

SO MANY OF THE THEMES OF THE PIECE ARE COMPLETELY CURRENT AND THAT'S WHAT IS EXCITING.

>> I THINK IT WAS A QUOTE BY YOU, THE IDEA THAT FEMINISM IS SUCH A DIFFICULT WORD, SUCH A DIFFICULT THOUGHT.

I THINK YOU SAID IT'S NOT ABOUT WOMEN SUDDENLY BEING IN CONTROL, IT'S ABOUT LEARNING TO SHARE AND EQUALIZE CONTROL AND POWER.

>> I THINK THE IDEA THAT FEMINISM IS IN SOME WAY A COMBAT OR AIMS TO DIMINISH MASCULINITY IS THE THING WE NEED TO REJECT, BECAUSE THE PRINCIPLE OF FEMINISM AS WE WANT WOMEN TO BE TREATED FAIRLY, EQUALLY, SAFELY, BE PAID AS THE SAME AS MEN FOR WHAT THEY DO, DO NOT BE HARASSED OR KILLED BY THEIR INTIMATE PARTNERS.

WE ARE STILL FAR FROM THE REALITY.

FOR ME IT IS INTERESTING WITHIN CULTURE TO TRY TO PROVOKE THAT CONVERSATION, AND DO NOT TRY TO BELITTLE OR DIMINISH MASCULINITY OR MEANT IN ANY WAY BUT TO SAY, HOW CAN WE LOOK AT THE STORES WE ARE TELLING, MYTHS WE TELL AND UNDERSTAND HOW THOSE IMPACT OUR CULTURE.

THEY ARE VERY DEEP AND HOW WE SEE THE WORLD AND HOW WE INTERACT WITH EACH OTHER.

>> IS THIS, FOR YOU, THE LANE YOU HAVE CHILDREN BECAUSE YOU CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE OR BECAUSE YOU REALLY WANT THROUGH ART TO REALLY MAKE PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THIS ISSUE OF POLITICS BUT IS EQUALITY, REALLY.

>> ULTIMATELY I MAKE IT BECAUSE I LOVE THE PRACTICE OF IT AND THE WORK IS BEING INSIDE IT AND IT'S COMPLETELY ALL-CONSUMING.

OF COURSE, EVERY DIRECTOR BRINGS THEMSELVES TO THE PROJECT.

EVERYTHING YOU SEE ON STAGE IS THROUGH THE LENS OF YOUR EXPERIENCE AND IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO CHANGE THAT.

MAYBE IT'S LESS OF A KIND OF POLITICAL MISSION, BUT IT FEELS THAT I TRY TO BE MY FULL SELF.

>> ONE OF THE ART FORMS THAT'S THE LEAST ACCESSIBLE TO EVERYBODY BECAUSE IT'S SO EXPENSIVE AND IT'S A BIT OF A NICHE.

DO YOU THINK IT IS POSSIBLE TO INCREASE THE ACCESSIBILITY AND MAKE IT MORE OF AN EVERY DAY KIND OF EXPERIENCE LIKE FILM IS OR TELEVISION?

>> I THINK THE FACT THAT MORE PRODUCTIONS ARE BEING FILMED AND BEING INTO CINEMAS IS INCREDIBLE BECAUSE PEOPLE WOULD NEVER DREAM TO GOING TO THE MET IN NEW YORK BUT THEY CAN WATCH ALL OF THESE REALLY HIGH QUALITY PRODUCTIONS WITH INCREDIBLE SETS AND WONDERFUL FINGERS.

THAT HESITANTLY BIG -- BEEN A BIG THING.

>> TOLD ME, AND OPERA IN THE UNITED STATES AT THE MET , YOUR ACTUAL DAILY JOB OF BEING THE DIRECTOR AND CREATOR OF THIS ENDS ON THE OPENING NIGHT.

SO, HOW MANY PEOPLE KNOW THAT?

YOU ARE SITTING HERE AND IT'S STILL GOING ON THERE.

>> IT'S NOT ONE NIGHT.

I THINK PEOPLE IMAGINE DIRECTOR SET IN A CUPBOARD SOMEWHERE OR WATCHING EVERY SINGLE NIGHT.

OF COURSE, WHEN YOU'RE IN THE SAME COUNTRY OF THE PRODUCTION, YOU GO BACK AND WATCH AND HELP IT GROW WITH THE ACTORS AND SINGERS.

BUT, IT'S IMPORTANT FOR THE PERFORMERS TO HAVE SOME FREEDOM AND ON THE STRUCTURE YOU HAVE MADE TOGETHER AND MAKE THEIR OWN INVESTIGATIONS WITHIN THE PIECE.

THERE IS ALWAYS A TEAM OF DIRECTORS AND EVERY VENUE SUPPORTING THEM.

>> THEY HAVE AN EYE OUT.

>> OF COURSE WE HAVE A RUNNING JOKE THAT IF I TURN UP --.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM.

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