"GREATER BOSTON," FRUSTRATION AND FURY FROM MANY WHO HAVE SPENT MUCH OF TODAY, STARTING AT MIDNIGHT, TRYING TO SIGN UP FOR THE LATEST PHASE OF MASSACHUSETTS' VACCINE ROLLOUT.

THE HEAD OF THE STATE AARP JOINS ME ON THE CONFUSION AND PANIC WITH WHICH SO MANY OF HIS MEMBERS ARE COMING TO HIM.

I'LL ALSO TAKE A MINUTE TO CORRECT AN ISSUE THAT CAME UP LAST NIGHT ABOUT WHEN CANCER PATIENTS CAN EXPECT TO BE VACCINATED.

THEN, LATER, WHY ONE HARVARD PUBLIC HEALTH PROFESSOR IS CALLING FOR N-95 MASKS FOR ALL OF US, AND NOW: AND THE "NEW YORK TIMES" EMILY BAZELON ON WHY SHE ARGUES DE-PLATFORMING TRUMP ON SOCIAL MEDIA SHOWED THE FIRST AMENDMENT IS BROKEN, BUT NOT IN THE WAY HIS SUPPORTERS THINK.

>>> JUST TWO DAYS AGO, ON MONDAY AFTERNOON, GOVERNOR CHARLIE BAKER STOOD BEFORE A GROUP OF REPORTERS AND THE PEOPLE OF THE COMMONWEALTH AND MADE A PRETTY BIG ANNOUNCEMENT.

>> Governor: BEGINNING ON FEBRUARY 1, ADULTS 75 AND OLDER WILL BE ELIGIBLE TO GET VACCINATED.

RESIDENTS AGED 75 AND OLDER WILL BE ABLE TO MAKE THEIR APPOINTMENTS ONLINE BEGINNING WEDNESDAY THROUGH SITES ON OUR VACCINATION MAP.

ALL THIS INFORMATION IS AVAILABLE AT www.mass.gov.covid-vaccine >> Braude: IT SOUNDED GOOD, IT SOUNDED CLEAR, AND PEOPLE WERE EXCITED, MAKING PLANS TO STAY UP UNTIL MIDNIGHT OR WAKE IN THE PRE-DAWN HOURS TO LOG ON TODAY AND SNAG AN APPOINTMENT, WHETHER FOR THEMSELVES OR THEIR OLDER PARENTS.

BUT THE COMPLAINTS THAT HAVE COME SINCE HAVE BEEN OVERWHELMING, WITH REPORTS OF PEOPLE SPENDING HOURS SEARCHING FOR A SLOT AND FINDING NOTHING AVAILABLE.

WHEN ASKED ABOUT THAT THIS AFTERNOON, HERE IS SOME OF HOW THE GOVERNOR RESPONDED.

>> Governor: IF YOU CAN'T SECURE AN APPOINTMENT RIGHT AWAY, YOU NEED TO BE PATIENT ABOUT THAT.

THIS PROCESS WILL BE FRUSTRATING, I UNDERSTAND THAT.

IT MAY TAKE SEVERAL TRIPS TO THE SITE BEFORE YOU'RE ABLE TO GET AN APPOINTMENT.

>> Braude: "FRUSTRATING" MIGHT BE AN UNDERSTATEMENT.

AND, AS A REMINDER, THIS IS THE SAME GOVERNOR WHO RESPONDED TO AN NBC-10 REPORTER'S QUESTIONS MONDAY ABOUT WHETHER THE WEBSITE COULD BE MORE STREAMLINED WITH THIS: >> Governor: HOW MUCH MORE STREAMLINED WOULD YOU LIKE IT TO BE THAN THAT?

>> Braude: THE OVER-75 CALLERS HAD SOME ANSWERS FOR THE GOVERNOR TODAY ON OUR RADIO SHOW, BUT BAKER ALSO REITERATED TODAY THAT THE FEDERAL VACCINE SUPPLY, AND HOW MUCH THEY'LL BE GETTING, IS A CONCERN.

>> REMEMBER, THERE ARE STILL, I'M GOING TO SAY, 20,000 -- THERE ARE STILL 20,000 FIRST RESPONDERS WHO ARE WORKING THEIR WAY THROUGH THIS PROCESS, AS WELL.

THIS THING IS A ROLLING ROLLOUT.

>> Braude: SOMETHING THAT PROBABLY COULD HAVE BEEN MADE CLEARER WHEN HE RAISED SO MANY HOPES THIS WEEK BY TELLING PEOPLE THEY COULD MAKE THEIR APPOINTMENT TODAY.

AND AS FOR THOSE WHO DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO THE ONLINE REGISTRATION OR DON'T KNOW HOW TO NAVIGATE IT AND ARE LOOKING FOR PERHAPS A PHONE LINE TO HELP, GOVERNOR BAKER OFFERED THIS TODAY: >> Governor: I THINK WE'RE WORKING ON WHETHER OR NOT THERE ARE OTHER WAYS THAT WE CAN HELP PEOPLE NAVIGATE THIS.

WE'D CERTAINLY URGE FAMILY MEMBERS AND FRIENDS TO HELP SUPPORT OLDER RESIDENTS, HELP THEM BOOK THEIR APPOINTMENTS THROUGH THAT WEBSITE IF YOU CAN GET THAT DONE FOR THEM.

>> Braude: I'M JOINED NOW BY THE STATE DIRECTOR OF THE AARP, MIKE FESTA, WHO SERVED AS THE STATE'S SECRETARY OF ELDER AFFAIRS UNDER DEVAL PATRICK AND AS STATE REPRESENTATIVE FROM MELROSE BEFORE THAT.

>> Braude: MIKE, IT'S GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

>> I APPRECIATE THE INVITE.

IT'S AN IMPORTANT ISSUE, GLAD TO TALK ABOUT IT.

>> Braude: YOU AND YOUR COLLEAGUE WROTE A LETTER TO THE AARP TO THE GOVERNOR, WHAT WERE YOU LOOKING FOR?

WHAT WERE YOU ASKING HIM FOR?

>> TO PUT IT SIMPLY, THE BIGGEST FRUSTRATION THAT YOU JUST ALLUDED TO IS THE ACKNOWLEDGMENT THAT THERE ARE A LOT OF FOLKS NOT ONLY HAVING A PROBLEM NAF G-8ING THENAVIGATING THE WEBSITE, BUT THERE IS A COMPLETE ABSENCE OF THE ALTERNATIVE THAT MANY PEOPLE 75 PLUS ARE USED TO, AND THAT'S GETTING ON THE PHONE AND TALKING TO A LIVE PERSON, LIKE HAS BEEN HAPPENING IN OTHER STATES.

WE HAVE A REAL PROBLEM WITH THAT.

I DO WANT TO MAKE THIS CLEAR: BEFORE YESTERDAY, WE HAD CONVERSATION LAST WEEK WITH THE ADMINISTRATION, REPRESENTATIVES IN THE EXECUTIVE OFFICE OF MELROSE AFFAIRS, TO CALL ATTENTION TO THE CHALLENGE OF RECOGNIZING WE'VE GOT TO FIND PEOPLE -- RESPECT PEOPLE, I SHOULD SAY, WHERE WE FIND THEM.

IT IS NOT FOR THE GOVERNMENT TO SUGGEST TO GO AHEAD AND DO IT ONLY THIS WAY.

AND, FRANKLY, THE COMMENT ABOUT GETTING YOUR FAMILY MEMBER TO HELP YOU OUT, THAT IS -- I'M NOT GOING TO SAY TOTALLY TONE DEAF, BUT IT MISSES THE MARK UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES.

>> Braude: I READ YOUR LETTER, BEFORE THE REGISTRATION BEGAN LAST NIGHT AT MIDNIGHT, AND YOU ASKED THAT THE AGE FOR PRIORITY VACCINATIONS BE LOWERED.

AND WHILE HE DIDN'T LOWER IT TO THE LEVEL THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, HE DID INCORPORATE THE RECOMMENDATIONS LAST WEEK OF THE C.D.C.

LOWERING IT TO 65 -- >> CORRECT.

AND THAT'S APPRECIATED.

>> Braude: I HAVE TO SAY, TO HEAR THE GOVERNOR TODAY ONLY AFTER THIS DISASTER, TO QUOTE OTHER PEOPLE IN "THE BOSTON GLOBE," HAPPENED, STARTING AT MIDNIGHT LAST NIGHT, ABOUT A PHONE ALTERNATIVE WAS STUNNING TO ME.

I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT SETTING UP THESE KINDS OF SYSTEMS.

I'M AWARE THAT THERE ARE A LOT OF OLDER PEOPLE WHO DON'T HAVE THE SKILLS, DON'T HAVE THE ACCESS, DON'T HAVE THE CONFIDENCE TO DO THIS.

HOW DID THIS FALL THROUGH THE CRACKS, IN YOUR ESTIMATION?

SOMETHING AT LEAST TO ME AND I THINK TO YOU THAT IS SO OBVIOUS?

>> I DON'T HAVE AN EXPLANATION, BUT WE WERE NOT PART OF THE VACCINATION ADVISORY COUNCIL THEY SET UP IN THE FALL.

WHAT STRIKES ME AS THE MOST FRUSTRATING ASPECT OF THE CURRENT SITUATION IS THAT COMMON SENSE TELLS YOU WHEN YOU'RE DEALING WITH THE POPULATION WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, FIRST OF ALL, NOT JUST FOR THE POINT YOU JUST MADE, BUT LET'S EXPAND THAT DISCUSSION A LITTLE BIT.

HOW MANY PEOPLE LISTENING TO YOUR SHOW TONIGHT, HOW MANY PEOPLE JUST IN THE AVERAGE POPULATION WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, HAVE EITHER NO ACCESS TO THE INTERNET BECAUSE THEY CAN'T AFFORD IT, OR BROADBAND, AND THAT SETS ASIDE THE QUESTION OF WHERE IS THE COMFORT LEVEL, WHERE YOU'RE ALREADY ANXIOUS, ALREADY WORRIED ABOUT YOUR HEALTH -- WHERE IS THAT ACCESS THAT WE'RE TRYING TO GET?

SO I HAVE TO SAY, I AM MYSTIFIED, BUT I CAN TELL YOU THIS: THERE ARE OTHER STATES, NEW HAMPSHIRE AND VERMONT COME TO MIND, WHERE THEY HAVE HUNDREDS OF LIVE ANSWERS FOR CALLERS WHO ARE SAYING, HOW CAN YOU HELP ME GET AN APPOINTMENT?

WHERE DO I GO AND HOW DO I SIGN UP?

WE NEED THAT AND WE NEED IT NOW.

AND I HAVE TO SAY, THAT'S BEEN A FOCUSED ATTENTION OF AARP CURRENTLY, AND IT IS GOING TO TAKE A WHILE, FRANKLY.

I DON'T HAVE -- RIGHT NOW THERE IS ZERO CERTAINTY THAT THAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN, QUITE FRANKLY, AND THAT CONCERNS ME.

>> Braude: MIKE, I'VE ASKED GUESTS ALMOST EVERY NIGHT, BUT YOU'RE UNIQUELY QUALIFIED TO AT LEAST HYPOTHESIZE OF THIS, NOW RUNNING AARP, I JUST LOOKED AT THE "WASHINGTON POST" A MINUTE BEFORE YOU CAME ON.

WE NOW RANK IN THE BOTTOM THIRD, MASSACHUSETTS, THE FOURTH WEALTHIEST STATE IN THE COUNTRY, IN TERMS OF PER CAPITA VACCINATIONS.

WE ARE 37 BY MY COUNT.

SO BY DEFINITION, 36 STATES ARE DOING IT BETTER, WHETHER IT IS NEW HAMPSHIRE, WHERE THERE ARE HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE ON THE OTHER END OF PHONE LINES.

WHAT HAPPENED HERE?

WHAT HAPPENED HERE?

WEST VIRGINIA -- WHAT HAPPENED HERE?

>> I DO NOT HAVE AN ANSWER TO THAT, JIM.

IT IS A DAMN GOOD QUESTION.

I AM NOT IN THAT PLACE WHERE I HAVE THAT ACCESS.

BUT HERE IS MY POINT: WE HAVE 760,000 MEMBERS OF AARP IN MASSACHUSETTS ALONE.

WE'RE READY RIGHT NOW TO COMMUNICATE IN WRITING TO THEM, WITH A POSTCARD, TO EXPLAIN IF YOU NEED A VACCINE, THIS IS HOW YOU GET IT.

BUT WE'RE NOT GOING TO SEND IT OUT UNTIL WE HAVE A PHONE NUMBER HAS AN ALTERNATIVE BECAUSE WE KNOW OUR MEMBERS.

AND I THINK GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS HAVE A HEIGHTENED DEGREE OF RESPONSIBILITY IN THIS ENVIRONMENT TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THERE ARE BARRIERS TO ACCESS TO GETTING THIS VACCINE WHICH HAVE TO BE ADDRESSED.

>> Braude: MIKE, WHAT DID YOU HEAR FROM YOUR MEMBERS TODAY AFTER THIS ROLLOUT?

AGAIN, TODAY WAS THE FIRST DAY TO REGISTER IF YOU'RE 75 OR OLDER -- WHAT DID YOU HEAR FROM THEM -- >> I DON'T MEAN TO INTERRUPT YOU.

I APOLOGIZE.

>> Braude: NO, NO, NO.

GO AHEAD.

>> WE HAVE GOTTEN HUNDREDS OF CALLS AND RESPONSES ON SOCIAL MEDIA, COMMENTS ON OUR WEBSITE, JUST EVERY FORM OF COMMUNICATION, WHICH CLUSTERS AROUND THE FOLLOWING: NUMBER ONE, I DON'T HAVE INTERNET ACCESS, WHAT DO I DO?

HOW DO I GET A VACCINE?

I'M 82 YEARS OLD.

I DON'T HAVE FAMILY THAT IS GOING TO HELP ME IN THE WAY THAT WAS SUGGESTED WHY THE GOVERNOR.

>> Braude: HEARTBREAKING.

>> THE RECURRING THING THAT WE KNOW -- HERE IS THE THING: WE STEPPED BACK AND ASKED, WHY IS THIS SO CRITICAL RIGHT NOW?

WELL, BECAUSE THE POPULATION THAT IS GETTING HIT THE HARDEST ARE THESE VERY SAME OLDER FOLKS.

SO IT IS A GENUINE SERIOUS ANXIETY THAT THESE FOLKS ARE DEALING WITH.

AND WE HAVE AN OBLIGATION, AS A GOVERNMENT, OR IN OUR CASE AS A SERVICE ORGANIZATION, TO MEET OUR MEMBERS AND MEET OUR POPULATION WHERE WE FIND THEM.

AND WHAT WE'RE SAYING RIGHT NOW, AND IT'S GOING TO TAKE, EVEN AT THIS LATE A DATE -- I'M NOT SURE -- IT HAS TO BE DONE.

I DON'T KNOW HOW AFFECTIVELY IT CAN BE DONE, BUT THERE ARE MANY WAYS, I THINK, THAT WE CAN BRING THIS TOGETHER, TRIAGE, IF YOU WILL, THE PROBLEM.

BUT THE FOCUSED ATTENTION HAS TO BE ON UNDERSTANDING THAT THE THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO NEED TO TALK TO AN INDIVIDUAL, AND THAT'S THE WAY IT HAS GOT TO BE SET UP, ONE WAY OR ANOTHER.

AND I'M NO LONGER IN THE GOVERNMENT TO SPEAK FOR THEM, NOR DO I INTEND TO, BUT I CAN TELL YOU AS AN ORGANIZATION THAT WANTS TO COMMUNICATE WITH ITS MEMBERS, WE HAVE A NUMBER OF MEDIUMS FORGIVING THAT MESSAGE.

>> Braude: MIKE, I HAVE TO INTERRUPT YOU, I ONLY HAVE 15 SECONDS LEFT.

WHAT DO YOU SAY IF A PERSON CALLS SCARED AND CONFUSED?

WHAT DID YOU SAY TO THEM TODAY?

WHEN THEY SAID WHAT DO I DO, HOW DO I GET A SHOT?

>> WE SAY, WE ARE WORKING AS HARD AS POSSIBLE TO MOVE THEM TO GET A PHONE NUMBER.

WE'RE ASKING YOU TO BE PATIENT.

WE KNOW THERE IS NOTHING ELSE, FRANKLY, THAT CAN BE DONE, ACCEPT IN THE WAYS THAT ARE BEING DISCUSSED, WHICH IS GET ON THE WEBSITE AND GET OTHERS' HELP.

IT HAS TO BE RESOLVED WITH A HOTLINE.

BECOME LINE.

>> Braude: MIKE, GOOD LUCK WITH YOUR WORK.

GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> GOOD TO SEE YOU.

THANK YOU FOR ALL YOU DO.

>> Braude: BEFORE WE MOVE ON FROM THE ISSUE OF VACCINES, I WANTED TO MAKE ONE IMPORTANT NOTE ABOUT LAST NIGHT'S SHOW.

DURING MY DISCUSSION WITH THE PRESIDENT AND C.E.O.

OF DANA FARBER, I MAY HAVE CAUSED SOME CONFUSION.

TO BE CLEAR, ACCORDING TO STATE GUIDELINES, ONLY PEOPLE AGED 75 AND OLDER WILL BE ADD TODD THE ELIGIBILITY LIST AS OF THIS MONDAY.

AND AFTER THAT, THE STATE HASN'T SAID WHEN PEOPLE AGED 65 AND OLDER WILL BE ELIGIBLE, AS WELL AS THOSE WITH TWO OR MORE CO-MORBIDITIES.

SO SOME CANCER PATIENTS MIGHT BE INCLUDED IN THOSE GROUPS.

BUT ANYBODY WHO IS YOUNGER THAN 65 WHO HAS CANCER BUT NO MORE CO-MORBIDITY IS TENTATIVELY TO BE VACCINATED SOMETIME IN MARCH.

THE GOVERNOR SAYS THEY HOPE TO HAVE MORE INFORMATION ABOUT WHEN THEY'LL BE OFFERING VACCINATIONS TO PATIENTS IN THE COMING DAYS.

>>> ALTHOUGH COVID CASE RATES ARE FALLING AT THE MOMENT HERE IN MASSACHUSETTS AND NATIONWIDE, PUBLIC HEALTH OFFICIALS ARE WARNING THOSE NUMBERS COULD GO RIGHT BACK UP AS MORE CONTAGIOUS VARIANTS OF THE VIRUS SPREAD MORE WIDELY.

SCIENTISTS HAVE SPREAD CONCERNS IF WE MIGHT NEED BOOSTERS TO PROTECT AGAINST THE DIFFERENT STRAINS.

AND MANY HAVE STARTED CALLING FOR DOUBLE MASKING, AS WE HAVE SEEN MORE AND MORE PUBLIC OFFICIALS DOING RECENTLY, INCLUDING VICE-PRESIDENT KAMALA HARRIS AS SHE GOT HER SECOND VACCINES DOSE YESTERDAY.

BUT THE QUALITY, RATHER THAN THE QUANTITY, OF WHAT YOU WEAR MIGHT MATTER MORE.

AS MY NEXT GUEST ARGUES, EVERYBODY SHOULD BE WEARING N-95 MASKS.

HE IS AN ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF THE HEALTHY BUILDINGS PROGRAM AT HARVARD SCHOOL.

JOHN, THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME ON.

>> Braude: WHY SHOULD WE ALL BE SEEING THOSE THINGS WE SEE HEALTH CARE PROFESSIONALS WEARING ON?

>> WE'RE A YEAR INTO THIS PANDEMIC, AND IN THE BEGINNING, ANYTHING WAS BETTER THAN NOTHING FOR THE GENERAL PUBLIC.

SIMPLE CLOTH MASKS, GREAT.

WE NOW HAVE ENOUGH INFORMATION, AND WE'VE SEEN THE DATA ON MASKS TO KNOW AT A MINIMUM, EVERYONE SHOULD BE WEARING A TWO OR THREE-LAYER MASK.

A BLUE SURGICAL MASK IS A THREE-LAYER MASK.

WE NEED BETTER MASKS BEYOND THAT.

SURGICAL MASKS MAY GET YOU 70% OF CAPTURE OF RESPIRATORY PARTICLES, BUT NOT N-95 PROTECTION.

THE OP-ED IS A CALL TO THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT TO SAY WE HAVE TO DO A BETTER JOB AND GET N-95s FOR HEALTH CARE, UNBELIEVABLY, THERE IS STILL A SHORTAGE IN HEALTH CARE, AND FOR ESSENTIAL WORKERS AND FOR THE REST OF US.

THAT CAN GO A LONG WAY TO SLOWING SPREAD OF THE PANDEMIC.

>> Braude: I WENT ON AMAZON BEFORE THE SHOW -- I TRY TO AVOID IT AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE -- AND I COULDN'T FIND ONE.

WHEN I TYPED IN N-95, I GOT THE KN-95, SO UNLESS JOE BIDEN BUYS INTO YOUR NOTION, UNLESS HE EMBRACES THE DEFENSE PRODUCTION ACT, THIS IS A WONDERFUL IDEA THAT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN BECAUSE THERE IS NO SUPPLY, RIGHT?

>> THIS IS WHY WE WRITE OP-EDS, RELYING ON THE GOOD SCIENCE.

THE SCIENCE SAYS WE ALL NEED BETTER MASKS.

IF ALL OF US ARE WEARING THE N-95s, OR THE KF, 94 OUT OF KOREA,S, WE GET AN OVER 99% PROTECTION.

THIS IS ABSOLUTELY A CALL.

WE SHOULD BE DOING BETTER, AND THESE SHOULD BE AVAILABLE FOR ALL OF US.

I AGREE, ONE OF THE KEY PROBLEMS HERE, FOR A CONSUMER, GOING ON AMAZON OR ANYWHERE ELSE, IT IS DIFFICULT TO KNOW WHAT TO BUY.

A KF-94, OR AN N-95 -- I CAN TALK ABOUT THEM, BUT A YEAR INTO THIS PANDEMIC, WE SHOULD BE BEYOND THAT.

WE SHOULD HAVE STANDARDS THAT SAY THIS IS AN ACCEPTABLE FOR THE PROTECTION YOU NEED.

>> Braude: GIVE US A QUICK PRIM MER.ER.

I HAVE READ MANY ARTICLES THAT SAY YOU CAN'T TRUST THE N-95s, AND OTHERS SAY THEY'RE CLOSE IN TERMS OF EFFICIENCY.

ARE YOU CONFIDENT IN WHAT YOU'RE SAYING?

>> 100% CONFIDENT.

I'LL TELL YOU WHAT I WROTE IN THE OP-ED AND IT IS MY CHEAT SHEET THAT I GIVE TO PEOPLE.

FIRST, THE CALL IS FOR MORE WIDESPREAD USE OF N-95s.

IF YOU CAN FIND THEM, GREAT.

THE SECOND IS A KF-94.

IT IS FROM CERTIFIED MANUFACTURERS IN KOREA.

IT IS 94% EFFICIENT, AS THE NAME IMPLIES.

AM M -95s YOU NEED TO BE CAREFUL BECAUSE WE HAVE SEEN COUNT COUNTERFEITS FROM CHINA.

IF YOU WANT GOOD PROTECTION RIGHT NOW AND YOU'RE NOT SURE OF WHAT TO BUY, YOU CAN RESORT TO DOUBLE MASKING IN THE INTERIM.

HERE IS WHAT I MEAN BY DOUBLE MASKING, YOU COULD WEAR A BLUE SURGICAL MASK, THEY'RE COMMONLY AVAILABLE AND CHEAP, AND THEN ON TOP OF IT, A CLOTH MASK.

HERE IS WHY THE DOUBLE MASKING MAKES SENSE.

THE POWER OF MASKS DEPENDS ON THE TWO "F"s, FILL STRATION ANDFILTRATION AND FIT.

THE CLOTH HELPS THE FIT, AND IT WILL KEEP IT FLUSH AGAINST YOUR NOSE AND THE SIDE OF YOUR FACE AND AROUND YOUR CHIN.

I ALSO THINK MASKS SHOULD BE -- WE SHOULD CHOOSE MASKS BASED ON THE CONTEXT.

IF YOU'RE GOING OUTSIDE FOR A WALK WITH A FRIEND, A SIMPLE CLOTH MASK IS FINE.

BUT IF YOU'RE AN ESSENTIAL WORK AND YOU'RE INDOORS FOR A LONG TIME, AND YOU WANT BETTER PROTECTION AND YOU CAN'T FIND A N-95 MASK, GO WITH A DOUBLE MASK, A SURGICAL MASK WITH A CLOTH MASK ON TOP FOR BETTER FIT.

>> Braude: PROFESSOR, THAT WAS A HELL OF A TUTORIAL.

I WANT YOU TO TAKE A LOOK AT A VIDEO THAT PUT ME OVER THE EDGED IN THE LAST 24 HOURS.

I WANT TO GET YOUR REALLY QUICK REACTION.

HERE IS SENATOR DR. RAND PAUL ON THE FLOOR OF THE SENATE SIGNING A BOOK YESTERDAY.

HIS FACE MAY BE TWO FEET AWAY FROM A SENATE CLERK, AND AS YOU SEE, WITH NO MASK.

IN 30 SECONDS, WHAT IS YOUR REACTION TO THAT?

>> I'LL GIVE IT TO YOU IN ONE SECOND: IT IS GROSSLY IRRESPONSIBLE.

WE KNOW THAT MASKS IS THE SINGLE MOST AFFECTIVE TOOL TO SLOW DOWN THIS PANDEMIC WHILE WE ALL WAIT FOR A VACCINE.

AND IT IS TOTALLY DISRESPECTFUL FOR THE PEOPLE HE IS AROUND.

THESE DO WORK.

IT IS BASIC AEROSOL PHYSICS AND FILTRATION.

THE MASKS CAPTURE ARISOLS FROM OUR RESPIRATORY SYSTEM.

IT IS DISRESPECTFUL.

IT IS A SIGN OF DISRESPECT TO HIS COLLEAGUES HE IS NOT DOING THE SIMPLE ACT OF WEARING A MASK.

>> Braude: THAT IS WHAT I WAS HOPING TO HEAR, JOSEPH ALLEN.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

>> GOOD TO SEE YOU.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME ON.

>> Braude: FOR MOST OF DONALD TRUMP'S TIME AS PRESIDENT, SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES LET HIM SAY WHATEVER HE WANTED, WHENEVER HE WANTED.

IT WASN'T UNTIL THE MONTHS LEADING UP TO THE ELECTION THAT TWITTER AND Facebook STARTED ADDING WARNINGS TO SOME POSTS, INCLUDING LATER TRUMP'S MANY CLAIMS OF THE STOLEN ELECTION.

BUT AFTER A MOB FUELED BY THOSE LIES STORMED THE CAPITOL, KILLING FIVE PEOPLE, Facebook SUSPENDED TRUMP'S ACCOUNT, AND TWITTER BANNED THEM PERMANENTLY, AND A DOZEN OTHER MEDIA COMPANIES FOLLOWED SUIT, CUTTING TIES WITH TRUMP AND HIS ALLIES THAT SPREAD MISINFORMATION.

AND AMAZON CUT OFF PARLER.

TRUMP'S SECRETARY OF STATE, MIKE POMPEO, CALLED THE MOVES DANGEROUS AND UNAMERICAN.

CONGRESSMAN MATT GAETZ CALLED IT TYRANNY, AND DONALD TRUMP, JR. SAID FREE SPEECH IS DEAD, ALL SAID FROM THEIR STILL ACTIVE TWITTER ACCOUNTS.

BUT IT WASN'T JUST TRUMP SUPPORTERS SOUNDING THE ALARM.

ANGELA MERKEL CALLED IT PROBLEMATIC.

AND A SENIOR COUNCIL FOR THE ACLU WARNED OF SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANY'S UNCHECKED POWER.

DE-PLATFORMING PRESIDENT TRUMP SHOWED THAT THE FIRST AMENDMENT IS BROKEN, BUT NOT IN THE WAYS TRUMP'S SUPPORTERS THINK.

EMILY BAZELON IS THE AUTHOR OF A FABULOUS BOC BOOK, "CHARGED."

EMILY, IT IS GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANKS SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

>> Braude: MANY WHO HAD CONTEMPT FOR TRUMP CHEERED WHEN HIS SOCIAL MEDIA ACCOUNTS WERE SHUT DOWN.

BUT AS YOU WRITE ABOUT, MANY OTHERS EXPRESSED CONCERN ABOUT SO MUCH POWER OVER SPEECH VESTED IN SOME PRIVATE SECTOR TECH EXECUTIVES.

DID ANY OF THEM HAVE AN ALTERNATIVE THAT WAS WORKABLE?

[LAUGHTER] >> THAT IS A HARD QUESTION TO START WITH.

I THINK THE SHORT ANSWER IS NO.

I THINK THE LONGER ANSWER IS THAT THERE ARE ALTERNATIVES TO WHAT WE CURRENTLY DO, WHICH IS TO TURN OVER ALL OF THE CONTENT MODERATION, ALL OF THE MONITORING OF SPEECH ON MAJOR SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS TO A HANDFUL OF EXECUTIVES TO RUN THOSE PLATFORMS.

BUT IT IS GOING TO TAKE A WHILE FOR THAT ALTERNATIVE TO REALLY TAKE SHAPE.

THE EUROPEANS, I WOULD ARGUE, ARE AHEAD OF US ON THIS, IN TERMS OF THINKING ABOUT HOW TO REGULATE THESE COMPANIES.

BUT TO JUST TALK ABOUT REGULATING SPEECH GETS PEOPLE REALLY NERVOUS.

SO THAT IS THE KIND OF TENSION THAT WE HAVE HERE.

>> Braude: SPEAKING OF THE EUROPEANS, THE WOMAN WHO IS HEAD OF THE EUROPEAN COMMISSION, WHO'S NAME I CAN'T THINK OF, SAID TODAY SHE INVITED JOE BIDEN TO JOIN 27 COUNTRIES THERE AGAINST THE -- SHE WROTE "THE DARKER SIDE OF THE DIGITAL WORLD."

BUT THE FIRST AMENDMENT STANDS IN THE WAY OF US ENGAGING IN SUCH COLLABORATION WITH A LOT OF OTHER COUNTRIES, DOES IT NOT?

>> AS UNDERSTOOD BY THE SUPREME COURT AS AN IMPEDIMENT.

THE SUPREME COURT HAS BECOME ABSOLUTEIST ABOUT FREE SPEECH.

THE EUROPEANS BAN HOLOCAUST DENIAL, AND WE DON'T DO THAT BECAUSE IT WOULD BE CLEARLY UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

I DO THINK THERE IS SOME POSSIBLE COMMON GROUND, WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THINGS LIKE, SHOULD THE COMPANIES ARE HELD TO THE STANDARDS THAT THEY SET FOR SPEECH MODERATION.

SHOULD WE HAVE SOME BETTER SENSE OF WHAT IS HAPPENING?

WE LITERALLY DON'T KNOW BECAUSE A LOT OF THE DATA THEY COLLECT SAN DIEGO IS IN A BLACK BOX THAT WE HAVE NO ACCESS TO.

>> Braude: AND WHEN PEOPLE LIKE JACK DORSEY FROM TWITTER AND ZUCKERBERG TESTIFY IN FRONT OF CONGRESS SAYING THEY BELIEVE THAT SOME GOVERNMENT REGULATION MIGHT BE APPROPRIATE, DO THEY MEAN IT?

OR IS THAT JUST FOR THE CONSUMPTION OF THE AUDIENCE THAT IS SITTING IN FRONT OF THEM THAT PARTICULAR DAY?

>> THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

I THINK A FEW THINGS HAVE HOPPED WITH ZUCKERBERG AND DORSEY.

THEY HAVE TAKEN A LOT OF HEAT FOR THE DECISIONS THEY HAVE MADE.

THEY GET BLAMED WHEN THINGS GO WRONG ONLINE, BUT THEY DON'T HAVE ANY WORKABLE STANDARDS FROM ANY GOVERNMENT TO USE.

SO THEY'VE TALKED ABOUT A COUPLE OF THINGS.

ONE IS SELF-REGULATION.

Facebook, FOR EXAMPLE, HAS THIS NEW OVERSIGHT BOARD.

IT IS MADE UP OF PEOPLE WHO ONES THEY'VE BEEN CHOSEN IS SUPPOSED TO BE INDEPENDENT.

AND Facebook HAS KICKED TO THEM THE QUESTION WHETHER IT SHOULD CONTINUE SUSPENDING TRUMP FROM THE PLATFORM.

AND THEN THERE IS THE QUESTION OF WHAT DORSEY HAS CALLED THE NEW LEGISLATIVE FRAMEWORK FOR INVOLVING THE GOVERNMENT IN SOME INDIRECT WAY IN HOW THESE COMPANIES OPERATE.

AND I THINK THAT Facebook AND TWITTER AND OTHER PLATFORMS COULD BE OPEN TO THOSE KINDS OF INTERVENTIONS, ESPECIALLY IF THEY HAVE TO BE, IN ORDER TO KEEP THINGS THAT THEY WANT FROM, YOU KNOW, THE KIND OF LACK OF REGULATION THEY'VE HAD SO FAR.

>> Braude: I KNOW THAT NEITHER ZUCKERBERG OR DORSEY WOULD EMBRACE THIS, BUT IS IT POSSIBLE THAT DONALD TRUMP WAS ON TO SOMETHING WITH THIS SECTION 230, WHICH ESSENTIALLY GIVES PLATFORMS IMMUNITY FROM WHAT IS POSTED.

EVEN GINA ARMONDO, I BELIEVE IN HER HEARING ON HER NOMINATION TO BE COM COM SECRETARY -- >> SECTION 230 GIVES SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS BROAD IMMUNITY FROM CIVIL SUITS FOR THE CONTENT THAT PEOPLE POST.

MOSTLY IT AFFECTS DEFAMATION KINDS OF ACTIONS.

I THINK PRESIDENT TRUMP'S CALLS TO REPEAL SECTION 230 IS MISGUIDED, AND PRESIDENT BIDEN SAID THE SAME THING.

IT WOULD PROBABLY ONLY ALLOW DEFAMATION SUITS, WHICH AREN'T DIRECTLY RESPONSIVE TO THIS BIG PROBLEM OF DISINFORMATION AND HATE SPEECH THAT WE'RE HAVING.

I THINK THAT THE BETTER IDEA, AND MAYBE THIS IS WHAT GINA WAS TALKING ABOUT, WAS TO USE THIS BIG GRANT OF IMMUNITY AS LEVERAGE TO GET THEM TO DO THINGS THAT WOULD MAKE FOR A BETTER SPEECH ENVIRONMENT ONLINE.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, IT SEEMS TO ME, AS A PERSON WHO DOESN'T SPEND TIME IN CONGRESS BUT CONSUMES THEIR BEHAVIOR, I GUESS, EVERY NIGHT ON TELEVISION, THAT THE GREATEST OBSTACLE TO THEM DOING SOMETHING IS NOT THEIR INACTION ON VIRTUALLY ANYTHING THAT MATTERS, BUT THE FACT THAT AS YOU ACKNOWLEDGE IN YOUR PIECE AND THE TIMES, DE-PLATFORMING WORKED, I GUESS WORKED IN QUOTES.

THERE WAS THE STUDY THAT CAME OUT A WEEK AGO SAYING THAT THE AMOUNT OF ONLINE MISINFORMATION ABOUT ELECTION FRAUD WAS DOWN 73% IN THE WEEK AFTER DONALD TRUMP WAS DUMPED FROM TWITTER.

ISN'T THAT THEIR ESCAPE PATCH?

THE FACT THAT THE PRIVATE SECTOR DID DO WHAT IT DID PROVIDES AN OUT FOR LEGISLATORS DOING SOMETHING THAT IS PRETTY DIFFICULT, NO?

>> I THINK IF THE DROP CONTINUED AND THE CHANGES THE PLATFORMS MADE WERE SUSTAINED, THAT WOULD BE THE CASE.

IT IS JUST THAT WE HAVE NO REASON TO THINK THAT WILL CONTINUE.

BECAUSE THE PLATFORMS HAVE THEIR ALGORITHMS SET UP TO MAKE MONEY.

IN THE PAST, THEY HAVE KIND OF PUT SOME REINS ON ABUSIVE SPEECH AND THEN TAKEN THEM BACK OFF.

WE SAW THAT HAPPEN, FOR EXAMPLE, AFTER THE NOVEMBER ELECTION.

AND NOW THE SORT OF REINS ARE BACK ON BECAUSE OF THE ASSAULT ON THE CAPITOL ON JANUARY 6th, BUT THERE IS NO REASON TO THINK THEY WILL CONTINUE WITHOUT THE GOVERNMENT TAKING SOME KIND OF STEPS.

>> Braude: SO IN 30 SECONDS, ARE YOU OPTIMISTIC THAT THE GOVERNMENT WILL FIGURE OUT HOW TO DO SOMETHING, EVEN IF IT IS NOT EVERYTHING?

>> EVENTUALLY, YES.

BUT I DON'T THINK WE'RE GOING TO SEE SOME INSTANT TRANSFORMATION.

I THINK DO THINK WE'RE GOING TO SEE THE GOVERNMENT FIGURE THIS OUT IN SOME WAY DOWN THE LINE.

>> Braude: I THINK THERE IS MUCH MORE BEYOND THAT ODD SMILE YOU JUST GAVE ME IN RESPONSE THO THAT QUESTION, BUT WE HAVE NO MORE TIME.

EMILY, YOUR PIECE WAS FABULOUS.

THANKS SO MUCH.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> Braude: THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT.

TOMORROW CONGRESSWOMAN AYANNA PRESSLEY JOINS ME.

AND STAY TUNED RIGHT NOW FOR THE THIRD INSTALLMENT OF OUR GBH SPECIAL PRESENTATION.

"THE STATE OF RACE."

JUST AHEAD DAN LOTHIAN AND HIS PANELISTS EXAMINE SOME OF THE ISSUES SURROUNDING POLICE REFORM.

TO REGISTER, VISIT WGBH.ORG/state of race.

FOR NOW, THANKS FOR WATCHING.

STAY SAFE.