>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON" THE MAN WHO TAUGHT TWO SUPREME COURT JUSTICES, THE ATTORNEY GENERAL AND A PRESIDENT, LAURENCE TRIBE JOINS ME ON THE FUTURE OF THE SUPREME COURT AND JOE BIDEN'S ROLL IN SHAPING IT NOW THAT JUSTICE STEPHEN BRIAR OFFICIALLY ANNOUNCED HIS RETIREMENT, AND ONCE HAILED AS HEROES, NURSES ARE STRETCHED THIN, BURNED OUT AND LEAVING THE PROFESSION IN DROVES.

THE PROBLEM ACCORDING TO SEVERAL WHO SPOKE TO "THE NEW YORK TIMES," HOSPITAL GREED.

I'M JOINED BY A MASSACHUSETTS NURSE WHO HELPED LEAD THE CHARGE DURING THE LONGEST NURSES STRIKE IN STATE HISTORY.

SUPREME COURT JUSTICE STEF EBB BRIAR'S RETIREMENT PLAN-- BREYER'S RETIREMENT PLAN WAS MADE OFFICIAL AS HE INFORMED JOE BIDEN WE STEP DOWN IN THE SUMMER.

>> I'M HERE TODAY TO EXPRESS A NATION'S GRATITUDE TO JUSTICE STEPHEN BREYER FOR HIS REMARKABLE CAREER IN PUBLIC SERVICE.

AND HIS CLEAR-EYED COMMITMENT TO MAKING OUR COUNTRY'S LAWS WORK FOR ITS PEOPLE.

I WILL SELECT A NOMINEE WORTHY OF JUSTICE BREYER'S LEGACY OF JUSTICE AND DECENCY.

>> Braude: AS FOR WHO THAT PERSON WILL BE THE PRESIDENT HAS A CLEAR LIST.

>> THE PERSON I WILL NOMINATE WILL BE SOMEONE WITH EXTRAORDINARY QUALIFICATIONS, CHARACTER, EXPERIENCE AND INTEGRITY.

AND THAT PERSON WILL BE THE FIRST BLACK WOMAN EVER NOMINATED TO THE UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT.

>> Braude: IF THE PRESIDENT SUCCEEDS ON THAT LAST POINT IT WOULD FULFILL A MAJOR CAMPAIGN PROMISE BUT WITH A COURT THAT MOVED DRAMICALLY TO THE RIGHT DURING TRUMP'S PRESIDENCY, THERE IS A LOT ON THE LINE FOR BIDEN TO GET HIS NOMINEE CONFIRMED.

AND AS WE ALL KNOW WHEN IT COMES TO THIS PARTICULAR SENATE NOTHING IS A GIVEN.

I'M JOINED BY HARVARD LAW PROFESSOR LAURENCE TRIBE WHOSE STUDENTS INCLUDED BARACK OBAMA, JOHN ROBERTS, JUSTICE ELANA KAGAN AND U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL MERRICK GARLAND AND WHO IS ARGUED BEFORE THE SUPREME COURT 35 TIMES.

LARRY TRIBE, IT'S GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> GOOD TO SEE YOU, JIM.

>> Braude: SO YOU ARE A FRIEND OF BREYERS YET YOU HAVE BEEN CALLING FOR HIM TO RETIRE FOR QUITE AWHILE.

IS THAT SOLELY A STRATEGIC CALL MINING THAT HE SHOULD LEAVE OFFICE SO DEMOCRATS STILL CONTROL THE SENATE HE WHEN A CONFIRMATION COMES UP OR IS THERE MORE?

>> NO, THAT'S ALL AM I MEAN HE'S STILL VERY EFFECTIVE, VERY SMART, VERY GOOD AT DEALING WITH HIS COLLEAGUES, TREMENDOUS JUSTICE BUT IT WAS TIME AWHILE AGO FOR HIM TO MAKE ROOM FOR SOMEONE YOUNGER WHO WOULD FILL HIS PLACE.

AND THERE ARE ALWAYS RISKS SOME.

DEMOCRATS IN THE SENATE ARE NOT EXACTLY SPRING CHICKENS.

AND WE KNOW THAT MCCONNELL WILL PULL OUT ALL THE STOPS, DO WHATEVER HE CAN, THE CLOSER IT GETS TO-- IT WOULDN'T SHOCK ME TO PULL OUT SOME NEW RULE SAYING OH, WE'RE IN A YEAR WHERE THERE ARE GOING TO BE MID TERMSK IT'S TOO LATE TO CONFIRM SOMEONE, IT'S NONSENSE BUT THAT'S HIS SPECIALTY.

AND SO I THOUGHT THAT ACTUALLY LAST OCTOBER JUST BEFORE HE TURNED 83, ACTUALLY OCTOBER HE WOULD HAVE TURNED 83 BACK IN AUGUST.

BUT LAST JUNE WHEN THE LAST TERM ENDED JUST BEFORE HE TURNED 83 WOULD HAVE BEEN A GOOD TIME FOR STEVE BREYER TO LEAVE THE COURT.

I'M GLAD HE IS DOING IT NOW.

HE HAS AN IMPORTANT LEGACY AND IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT THAT IT NOT BE RUINED BY SOMEONE WHO IS VERY FAR TO HIS RIGHT.

AND THE COURT IS REALLY LURCHING TO THE RIGHT IN AN UNPRECEDENTED WAY WITH UNPRECEDENTED SPEED AND WITH DEVASTATING RESULTS FOR PEOPLE AROUND THE COUNTRY, ESPECIALLY WOMEN BUT REALLY FOR EVERYONE.

>> Braude: WHAT IS HIS IMPORTANT LEGACY.

>> I SUPPOSE I WOULD SAY PRACTICING MATTISM.

A LACK OF IDEALOGICAL RIGIDITY, COMMITMENT TO CERTAIN CORE VALUE OF EQUAL PROTEK WITHOUT REGARD TO RACE OR GENDER OR SEXUAL IDENTITY.

AND I THINK ULTIMATELY DECENCY MUCH HE ARE SL A JUSTICE FOR ALL SEASONS, I HAVE WRITTEN VERY FAVORABLE THINGS ABOUT MANY OF HIS DECISIONS, SOME OF THEM DISSENTS.

AND I THINK HE HAS A VERY IMPORTANT LEGACY.

AND I AM LOOKING FORWARD TO THE HISTORIC APPOINTMENT OF THE OBVIOUSLY VERY WELL QUALIFIED AFRICAN-AMERICAN WOMAN, BLACK WOMAN TO THE COURT FOR THE FIRS TIME.

IT'S WELL PASSED DUE.

>> Braude: IT'S AMAZING YOU HAVE TO PRAISE SOMEONE FOR BEING A DECENT SOUL, IT'S REALLY A FUNCTION OF THE TIMES.

SPEAKING OF A BLACK WOMAN, YOU TWEETED IN AUGUST OF 2020 IN LIGHT OF CANDIDATE BIDEN'S PLEDGE.

BY THE WAY THIS IS BEFORE RUTH BADER GINSBURG DIED.

BOTH JUDGE KETANJI BROWN JACKSON, JUSTICE LEONDRA KRUGGER WOULD BE BE SUPERB SCOTUS JUSTICE, BRILLIANT, HUMANEE, WISE, DAZING WILY KRE DENNINGED AND SAVVY IN THE WORLD, BUT ARE BLACK WOMEN IS THE HAPPY PLUS FACTOR.

MI ASSUMING THAT FOR STRATEGIC REASONS AGAIN BROWN JACKSON IS THE CALL FOR BY VIRTUE OF THE FACT THAT SHE WAS JUST CONFIRMED, NOT ONLY JUST CONFIRMED BUT CONFIRMED WITH ALL 50 DEMOCRATIC VOTES INCLUDING JOE MANCHIN, AND THREE REPUBLICAN VOTES, IS THAT NOT A PRETTY SOUND PREDICTION?

>> WELL, IT'S ONE OF THREE VERY SOUND PREKIKS, I THINK LEONDRA KRUGGER HAS A LOT, BUT ALSO JANE MICHELLE CHILDS, SHE IS GOING TO HAVE A HEARING REALLY QUITE SOON, SHE IS A DISTRICT COURT JUDGE IN SOT CAROLINA.

SHE IS THE ONE WHO JIM CLYBURN HAS FAVORED FOR QUITE AWHILE.

SHE IS ALSO VERY BRILLIANT.

SHE'S YOUNG.

SHE'S DYNAMIC.

AND SHE WILL HAVE A HEARING ON HER NOMINATION TO THE D.C.

CIRCUIT.

SO IN A WAY SHE WILL HAVE HAD A KIND OF INTERVIEW IN PUBLIC IN A MAN THARY WILL MAKE IT POSSIBLE FOR THE PRESIDENT TO SEE WHETHER SHE OUGHT TO BE ON HIS VERY SHORT LIST.

SHE CERTAINLY IS ON A SHORT LIST OF SIX OR SEVEN RIGHT NOW.

>> Braude: DO YOU BUY, JIM CLYBURN WAS ON THE SAME ANDERSON COOPER SHOW YOU WERE ON LAST NIGHT.

AND CLYBURN SAID THAT HE WAS SURE THAT SHE WOULD HAVE THE SUPPORT OF THE TWO REPUBLICAN SENATORS SCOTT AND GRAHAM FROM SOUTH CAROLINA.

IS THAT A HOPE OR A REALITY, DO YOU THINK?

>> WELL, I THINK WHEN JIM CLYBURN TALKS, I LISTEN.

>> Braude: OKAY.

>> HE KNOWS HIS POLITICS.

I THINK HE COULD DELIVER THOSE TWO SENATORS.

AND I THINK THERE'S NOTHING ABOUT MICHELLE CHILDS THAT WOULD MAKE HER A PROBLEM FOR THEM.

UNLESS THERE IS SOME RACIST ELEMENT.

AND I WOULD CERTAINLY HOPE NOT.

>> AGAIN REFERENCING LAST NIGHT, THERE WAS A CLIP ON COOPER'S SHOW OF YOU TESTIFYING AGAINST ROBERT WORK IN 1987,-- BORK THE LEGENDARY BORK HEARINGS AND OBVIOUSLY A BRUISING BATTLE AM CLUCK TODD FROM MEET THE PRESS WAS ON OUR RADIO SHOW TODAY AND HE SUGGESTED SOMETHING I TOTALLY AGREE WITH, THAT THIS WILL NOT BE A BRUISING BATTLE BECAUSE IT IS NOT IN THE INTEREST OF THE REPUBLICANS.

ONE, IT IT DOES NOT CHANGE THE 6-3 CONSERVATIVE DYNAMIC.

AND TWO A BRUISING BATTLE WOULD DISTRACT FROM WHAT HAS BEEN A VERY SUCCESSFUL FEW MONTHS FROM THEM FOCUSING ON WHAT THEY CONSIDER TO BE BIDEN'S LIABILITIES WITH THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

DO YOU BUY THAT ANALYSIS OR DO YOU THINK THIS IS JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER WAR THAT HAS BEEN FOUGHT OVER SUPREME COURT JUSTICES OF LATE?

>> I THINK I BUY THE ANALYSIS.

I THINK THE REPUBLICANS HAVE EVERYTHING TO LOSE AND VERY LITTLE TO GAIN BY PUTTIN THE SPOTLIGHT ON THIS NOMINATION.

IT IT WILL BE HISTORIC.

IT IT WILL ENERGIZE THE DEMOCRATIC BASE.

THEY HAVE NOTHING REALLY NEGATIVE TO SAY ABOUT ANY OF THESE NOMINEES.

AND EVEN THOUGH MCCONNELL I THINK WOULD IF HE COULD KEEP THIS SEAT VACANT UNTIL THE NEXT PRESIDENCY, AND THAT COULD SWITCH TO REPUBLICAN HANDS, OBVIOUSLY, I JUST DON'T THINK HE'S GOING TO SEE THE OPPORTUNITY.

AND THEREFORE HE'S NOT GOING TO TAKE THE CHANCE.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT MCCONNELL FOR A SECOND.

EVEN IF HE WANTED TO TAKE THE CHANCE, IN THIS CONGRESS, THE ONE LIEU JANUARY OF NEXT YEAR, IN THIS CONGRESS, HE CAN DELAY THE NOMINATION BUT IF THE DEMOCRATS STICK TOGETHER HE CAN'T UNDUE, HE CAN'T STOP A NOMINATION, CORRECT?

>> I THINK THAT'S CORRECT.

AND SO DELAY WHICH IS THE NAME OF THE GAME IS, WOULD BE THE ONLY CARD HE WOULD HAVE TO PLAY.

AND THAT DOESN'T.

>> GO AHEAD, I'M SORRY.

>> THAT DOESN'T DO HIM ENOUGH GOOD.

THERE ARE CONTEXT IN WHICH RUNNING OUT THE CLOCK IS THE WAY TO WINNINGS I'M NOT SURE THAT THAT WOULD BE A STRATEGY THIS TIME.

>> SPEAKING ABOUT RUNNING OUT THE CLOCK THOUGH, GETTING BACK TO THE SCENARIO YOU DESCRIBED A MINUTE AGO, SHOULD THE REPUBLICANS TAKE CONTROL OF THE SENATE AND IN THE MID-TERM ELECTIONS, COME JANUARY OF NEXT YEAR, I DON'T FIND IT PREPOS TRUS AT ALL TO THINK THAT IF THERE WAS AN OPENING LET'S SAY IN FEBRUARY OF NEXT YEAR, WITH 23 MONTHS TO GO UNTIL AN ELECTION OR 22, THAT MCCONNELL WOULD FAIL TO EVEN HOLD A HEARING ON A BIDEN NOMINEE, DO YOU FIND THAT PREPOS TRUS OR NOT?

>> NO, I THINK HE WOULD FAIL.

I THINK THE GARLAND PRECEDENT IS THE ONE THAT HE WOULD FOLLOW.

AND WHERE PEOPLE WOULD SAY WELL, WHAT ABOUT AMY CONEY BARRETT, HE WOULD FIND A WAY TO DISTINGUISH THAT.

HE ALWAYS DOES.

>> Braude: CAN WE RETURN IT TO THE RETIREMENT ISSUE FOR A MINUTE, LARRY TRIBE.

JUSTICE BREYER JOINED ME IN 2015, AND WE TALKED ABOUT SOMETHING THAT I AM RELATIVELY OBSESSED WITH, WHICH IS LIMITING THE TERMS OF THE SUPREME COURT JUSTICES.

HERE'S WHAT JUSTICE BREYER SAID TO ME.

>> I WOULD SAY THERE SHOULD BE A LONG TENURE, WHETHER IT IS A TERM OF YEARS OR NOT, MAYBE IT WOULD BE BETTER IT TO CENTER A TERM OF YEARS.

BUT IT NUS BE LONG.

BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT A PERSON IN THAT JOB THINKING ABOUT HIS NEXT JOB.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW LARRY, I READ THE PIECE.

YOU AND NANCY GERTNER WHO WILL BE ON THE RADIO WITH US TOMORROW, SERVED ON THE PRESIDENTIAL COMMISSION, BIDEN'S COMMISSION ON THE SUPREME COURT RECENTLY.

AND YOU WROTE AN OP ED AFTER THE FACT IN THE WASHTON POST WITH HER IN WHICH YOU SAID YOU WERE BOTH LEANING TOWARD TERM LIMITS AND AGAINST EXPANSION OF THE COURT WHEN THE PROCESS STARTED.

AND AT THE END OF THE PROCESS YOU FLIPPED AND YOU WERE LEANING TOWARDS EXPANSION AND AGAINST TERM LIMITS.

COULD YOU EXPLAIN BOTH OF THOSE TO ME.

>> SURE.

INITIALLY I THOUGHT THAT IT WAS GOING TO BE RELATIVELY EASY TO ADOPT SOMETHING THAT IS POPULAR NATIONALLY AND THAT IS TYPICAL AROUND THE WORLD.

AND THAT IS SOMETHING LIKE A 12 OR 18 YEAR FIXED TERM, NO REAPPOINTMENT OF, IT WOULDN'T BE VERY COMPLICATED, I THOUGHT.

AND IT IT WOULD BE SENSIBLE BECAUSE THE POSITION OF SUPREME COURT JUSTICE IS THE ONLY POSITION IN OUR COUNTRY THAT IS ANALOGOUS TO THAT OF A KING OR A QUEEN, SORT OF YOU SERVE FOR LIFE AND YOU HAVE GREAT POWER FOR LIFE.

MORE POWER THAN KINGS OR QUEENS DO THESE DAYS.

AND I ALSO THOUGHT AT THAT TIME THAT EXPANDING THE COURT GIVEN THE HISTORIC EXPERIENCE AND THE RATHER NEGATIVE SPIN THAT HAS BEEN GIVEN IT TO ROOSEVELT'S COURT PACKING PLAN WAS NOT A GREAT IDEA.

BUT AFTER A VERY INTENSIVE PERIOD OF MONTHS, WITH HEARINGS, WITH DOZENS OF WITNESSES, LOTS OF READING, HUGE AMOUNT OF TIME, TALKING TO ONE ANOTHER, 34 COMMISSIONERS, BROAD IDEALOGICAL SPECTRUM, I ENDED UP TO MY OWN SURPRISE CONCLUDING THAT EXPANDING THE COURT BY FOUR MEMBERS WOULD BE REALLY A VERY GOOD IDEA.

IT'S NOT IN THE CARDS.

IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

BUT IT IS CONSTITUTIONALLY SIMPLE.

NO ONE DOUBTS THE POWER OF CONGRESS TO CHANGE THE SIZE OF THE COURT AND TO ADD IT.

IT HAS ALREADY BEEN SERIOUSLY PACKED AND IT DATES BACK BY APPOINTMENTS OF DUBIOUS LEGITIMACY FOR VARIOUS REASONS.

AND AS TO TERM LIMITS, ALTHOUGH I SARTED WITH STEVE BREYER IS AT THE MOMENT, I THINK, THINKING NOT A BAD IDEA, WHEN YOU ACTUALLY LOOK AT THE DETAILS, THE DEVIL IS IN THE DETAILS.

HOW DO YOU PHASE IT IN.

WHAT HAPPENS TO THE LIFE TENURE JUDGES NOW WHEN YOU HAVE SOME NEW ONES WHO ARE APPOINTED FOR A FIXED TERM.

WHAT HAPPENS EVEN IF THEY CAN'T GET REA JOINLTED-- REAPPOINTED IF THEY ARE YOUNG ENOUGH WHEN THEY START, 18 YEARS LATER THEY STILL HAVE A CAREER AHEAD OF THEM.

SO YOU BEGIN WORRYING THAT THEY WILL BEGIN RULING IN FEAFER OF, YOU KNOW, THE OIL & GAS INDUSTRY BECAUSE THEY WANT A JOB IN THAT INDUSTRY.

NOT A GOOD IDEA, AND THRSES' ALSO A VERY DIFFICULT PROBLEM OF THE MCCONNELLS OF THE WORLD.

THAT IS IF YOU HAVE A SYSTEM OF 18 YEAR TERMS WHERE A NORMAL PRACTICE OF TWO APPOINTMENTS FOR EACH PRESIDENT, WHAT HAPPENS IF A PRESIDENT IS OF THE OPPOSITE PARTY FROM THE SENATE AND THE PRESIDENT NAMES SOMEONE AND THE SENATE SAYS WE'RE JUST NOT GOING TO HOLD A HEARING.

SO ACTUALLY MAKING IT IT WORK TURNED OUT TO BE SO COMPLICATED THAT ALTHOUGH I'M NOT DEAD SET IMENS IT, I THINK PROBABLY IT WOULDN'T WORK.

>> Braude: REGARDLESS OF WHAT REFORMS HAPPEN OR NONE WHICH IS MORE LIKELY AND REGARDLESS OF WHO FILLS JUSTICE BREYER'S SEAT, THERE WILL BE A RULING COME SUMMER ON THE MISSISSIPPI ABORTION CASE.

ARE YOU AMONG THOSE WHO LEAVE THAT WE WILL SEE THE REPEAL OR AT LEAST THE GUTTING OF ROE V. WADE.

>> WITHOUT ANY DOUBT, WHETHER THEY USE THE WORDS ROE V. WADE IS HEREBY OVERRULED OR WHETHER THEY OVERRULE IT WITHOUT SAYING IT, ROE V. WADE IS BASICALLY DEAD.

THEY HAVE ALLOWED THE STATE OF TEXAS TO BAN ABORTIONS AFTER SIX WEEKS WHICH IF ROE V. WADE WERE ALIVE WOULD BE INTOLERABLE.

@AND THEY'VE ALLOWED IT UNDER A KOK EYED SCHEME IN WHICH BECAUSE OF THE INGENUITY OF THE WAY IT IS DESIGNED NOBODY CAN EFFECTIVELY CHALLENGE IT IN FEDERAL COURT.

BECAUSE THEY HAVE BASICALLY FARMED OUT THE ENFORCEMENT TO VIGILANTE BOUNTY HUNTER WAS ARE NOT SUPPOSEDLY AGENTS OF THE STATE.

ALTHOUGH A REASONABLE READING OF THE LAW WOULD SAY THAT IF THE STATE IS PUTTING THEM UP TO IT AND OFFERING THEM LIMITLESS AMOUNTS OF MONEY, 10,000 OR MORE WITH NO CEILING TO STOP ABORTIONS, THEY ARE REALLY AGENTS OF THE STATE.

BUT ROE V. WADE IS BASICALLY DEAD.

AFFIRMATIVE ACTION IS BASICALLY DEAD.

THERE IS VERY LITTLE MYSTERY.

NOW THAT THE COURT IS SOLIDLY STACKED WITH IDEOLOGICALLY DRIVEN FAR RIGHT JUSTICES, EXCEPT ON MATTERS THAT ARE LESS CONTENTIOUS, THERE IS VERY LITTLE TO PREDICT IT WOULDN'T BE NEARLY AS INTERESTING TEACHING CONSTITUTIONAL LAW NOW AS IT WAS FOR 50 YEARS WHILE I DID IT WHEN THE MYSTERY IS GONE.

YOU KNOW.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO SAY HAND ME THE ENVELOPE PLEASE.

YOU KNOW WHAT IS IN IT THRR.

>> Braude: LARRY TRIBE, WE ONLY HAVE A MINUTE OR SO LEFT, IF WE CAN CHANGE GEARS QUICKLY, YOU WROTE A COUPLE OF PIECES AND SPOKEN A LOT ABOUT YOUR DISAPPOINTMENT, MY WORD, NOT YOURS, YOUR WORDS MAY BE STRONGER IN THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT UNDER MERRICK GARLAND IN THE FAILURE TO INVESTIGATE POSSIBLE CRIMES BY DONALD TRUMP, DID THE INDICTMENT OF THE HEAD OF THE OATH KEEPERS FOR IS HE SEDITIOUS BEHAVIOR AND SOME OF MISS MEMBERS CAUSE YOU MORE OPTIMISM ABOUT MERRICK GARLAND MAYBE GOING UP THE CHAIN LITTLE BY LITTLE?

>> IT DID.

AND ALSO THE ANNOUNCEMENT BY THE DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL JUST TWO DAYS AGO THAT THEY ARE NOW INVESTIGATING CRIMINALLY AT THE LEVEL OF THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT THE PLOT THAT REALLY DIDN'T DEPEND ON THE VIOLENT INSURRECTION, THE PLOT TO HAVE FAKE ELECTORS SENT IN, PHONEY CERTIFICATES SO THAT THEY WOULD GIVE VICE PRESIDENT AN EXCUSE TO SEND THE MATTER BACK IT TO THE STATES.

THAT WAS A PLOT TO OVERTURN IT THE ELECTION.

IT IT WAS A CONSPIRACY, A SEDITIOUS CONSPIRACY IN VIOLATION OF A VERY SERIOUS FEDERAL CRIMINAL STATUTE.

AND THE FACT THAT THE DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL HAS SAID THAT THEY ARE NOW INVESTIGATING THAT MEANS THAT THERE IS NO WAY FOR THEM TO STOP SHORT OF GIULIANI AND MARK MEADOWS AND THE KINGPIN HIMSELF DONALD TRUMP.

WHETHER HE WILL BE INDICTED OR NOT, I'M NOT SURE.

BUT I HAVE BEEN CALLING FOR AN INTENSE IT, COMPREHENSIVE, RAPID INVESTIGATION.

I HAVE NOT BEEN, YOU KNOW, DECIDING IN ADVANCE WHETHER THE CASE IS ABSOLUTELY STRONG ENOUGH TO MAKE AN INDICTMENT APPROPRIATE.

BUT I THINK IT WILL BE AND I'M GLAD THAT MERRICK IMAR LAND SEEMS TO HAVE STEPPED UP TO THE PLATE.

>> Braude: YOU MUST HAVE TAUGHT HIM WELL, LARRY TRIBE, GOOD TO SEE YOU, THANKS SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME, I APPRECIATE IT TWNS THANKS, THANK YOU.

>> Braude: NEXT UP IT ST SNO SECRET THAT AMONG THOSE WHO BORNE THE BRUNT OF THE PANDEMIC HAVE BEEN NURSES.

FOR NEARLY TWO YEARS THEY'VE BEEN EXPOSING THEMSELVES TO COVID DAY IN AND DAY OUT, WORKING LONG HOURS, CHRONICALLY UNDERSTAFFED AND UNDERSTRETCHED AND THAT IS WHEN THEY DON'T HAVE A BUNCH OF PEOPLE OUT ON COVID QUARANTINE.

BUT ACCORDING TO SEVERAL NURSES PART OF A VIDEO OP ED IN THE MORK TIMES, THAT SHORTAGE IS INTENTIONAL.

BROUGHT ON BY HOSPITAL GREED.

>> THERE IS NOT A SHORTAGE OF NURSES, THERE'S JUST A SHORTAGE OF NURSES WILLING TO WORK UNDER THOSE CONDITIONS.

>> IF YOU DON'T HAVE ENOUGH NURSES, PATIENT WILL DIE.

>> THEY WILL BECOME SICKER AND THEY WILL DIE.

>> THERE HAVE BEEN MANY INSTANCES WHERE PATIENTS THAT DIED THAT SHOULDN'T HAVE DIED.

I KNOW THAT UNEQUIVOCALLY, FAMILIES, THEY FEEL LIKE YOU HAVE DONE THE BEST JOB THAT YOU CAN.

AND THE REALITY IS WE'RE NOT.

>> Braude: I'M JOINED BY NOW BY ONE OF THE NURSES YOU JUST SAW MARLENA PELLEGRINO, SHE ALSO PLAYED A KEY ROLE IN THE LONGEST NURSING STRIKE IN STATE HISTORY, ST. VINCENT HOSPITAL IN WORCESTER EARLIER THIS YEAR.

SHE'S COCHAIR OF THE MASSACHUSETTS NURSING ASSOCIATION'S BARGAINING UNIT, MARLENA, CONGRATULATIONS ON THAT.

AND IT IS GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

>> THANKS VERY MUCH, THANKS FOR EVERYTHING.

>> Braude: THAT VIDEO JUST KNOCKED ME FOR A LOOP.

A BUNCH OF NURSES, PEOPLE SHOULD WATCH IT IT TBU IF THEY HAVEN'T SEEN IT IT DWRET, TIRED AND MAD AS HELL AND TAKE IT ANY MORE.

AND A REALLY IMPORTANT POINT, YOU ALL MAKE, THIS JUST IS NOT JUST THE FUNCTION OF THE COVID PANDEMIC.

THIS PREDATES THAT, AS WELL, CORRECT?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

ABSOLUTELY.

IT IS THE HIDDEN SECRET I THINK IN HEALTH CARE THAT THE GENERAL PUBLIC DOESN'T KNOW.

BUT THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS.

NURSES JUST PUSHED TO THE LIMIT.

NOT BEING ABLE TO CARE FOR THEIR PATIENTS AND PUT IN POSITIONS WHERE IT ST JUST UNTENABLE.

>> Braude: AND THE HOSPITAL YOU ALL CONTEND, I KNOW THIS SOUNDS PATH ETICALLY SIMPLE BUT I THINK THIS IS THE MESSAGE.

THE HOSPITAL MAKES MORE IF A PATIENT GETS LESS CARE.

I MEAN ESSENTIALLY THEY ARE EMBRACING THE BOTTOMLINE OVER WHATEVER CONSEQUENCE THERE IS FOR THE PATIENTS WHO ARE TRUSTING THEM, IS THAT NOT THE PRETTY CLEAR MESSAGE?

>> THAT IS THE CLEAR MESSAGE WE HAVE BEEN GETTING FROM HEALTH CARE ADMINISTRATORS AND HEALTH CARE CORPORATIONS FOR YEARS.

THE LESS NUMBER OF NURSES YOU HAVE AT THE BEDSIDE THE MORE MONEY THE HOSPITAL MAKES.

AND THE QUALITY OF CARE THE PATIENT GETS.

THEIR TOP PRIORITY IS THEIR BOTTOMLINE, IT IS NOT THE SAFETY OF PATIENTS.

AND NURSES HAVE TAKEN A STAND.

THEY HAVE HAD IT WITH THAT.

IT ST NOT RIGHT IT IS NOT ETHICAL, AND WE ARE DOING EVERYTHING WE CAN TO STOP IT.

>> YOU KNOW, YOU AND YOUR COLLEAGUES TOOK THE ULTIMATE STAND ALMOST A YEAR ON STRIKE.

BUT AS SOMEONE WHO USED TO BE A UNION PRESIDENT MYSELF, I THINK THAT PEOPLE NAIVELY OUTSIDERS THINK YOU FIGHT, YOU FIGHT, YOU GET MOST OF WHAT YOU WANT.

WHICH YOU DID ON STAFFING ISSUES AFTER ALMOST A YEAR.

BUT WHEN YOU RETURN TO WORK, WHAT IS THE FEEL BETWEEN THE EMPLOYER, IN THIS CASE TENET HEALTH, IN A FAR AWAY STATE.

WHAT IS THE FEEL BETWEEN YOU AND YOUR COWORKERS WHO GAVE A YEAR OF YOUR LIFE FOR THE IT STRUGGLE AND THE PEOPLE WHO JUST KEPT SAYING NO?

>> WELL, THE FEEL ON OUR SIDE ANYWAYS IS THAT WE'RE GOING IN THERE WITH OUR PATIENTS AS OUR TOP PRIORITY.

WE WANT TO GET BACK IN THE BUILDING, STABILIZE THIS BUILDINGK BRING SOME HEALING ABOUT AND START CARING FOR OUR PATIENTS.

WE HOPE THAT FEELING IS MUTUAL.

WE GO IN THERE, YOU KNOW, FEELING VERY PROUD OF WHAT WE'VE DONE.

BUT ALSO KNOWING THAT IF THERE IS GOING TO BE AN A JUSTMENT PERIOD.

TEN MONTHS IS A LONG TIME.

THAT HOSPITAL IS GOING THERE'S BEEN A LOT GOING ON IN THERE FOR TEN MONTH THAT HAS BROUGHT THE LEVEL OF CARE DOWN.

AND WE WOULD LIKE TO SEE OUR HOSPITAL RETURN TO THE BEACON IT TWUNS WAS, SO IT IT ST ABOUT PATIENTS FIRST, WHETHER YOU ABOUT ON STRIKE, IT'S ABOUT PUTTING PATIENTS FIRST RIGHT NOW.

WE WANT TO GET BACK IN THAT BUILDING AND GIVE PATIENTS THE CARE THEY DESERVE.

THAT'S WHY WE ARE PROUD OF THE CONTRACT WE HAVE.

WE WANT TO USE THE LANGUAGE WE HAVE TO BETTER OUR PATIENTS AND WE'RE WALKING INTO THAT BUILDING, YOU KNOW, TRYING TO DO THAT EVERY DAY.

>> Braude: ALL OF US HAVE READ ABOUT NURSES LEAVING THE PROFESSION, SEEN THE VIDEO.

THE VIDEO MENTIONS THAT BASED ON SURVEYS 40% OF NURSES ARE SERIOUSLY CONSIDERING LEAVING THE PROFESSION.

THE ONE THING I LEARNED IS WHAT WE JUST PLAYED FOR YOU.

I HAVE MISTAKENLY BEEN SAYING FOR A LONG TIME THAT WE HAVE A CRITICAL NURSING SHORTAGE.

BUT YOU CONTEND THERE IS NOT A SHORTAGE AT ALL, THERE IS SIMPLY A SHORTAGE OF NURSES WILLING TO WORK UNDER THESE KINDS OF CONDITIONS, RIGHT?

>> THERE ARE MILLIONS OF NURSES IN THE UNITED STATES.

AND MANY HAVE TAKEN THEMSELVES AWAY FROM THE BEDSIDE PURPOSEFULLY.

NOT ABLE TO YOU KNOW, WRESTLE WITH THEIR CONSCIENCE, NOT BEING ABLE TO PROVIDE THE CARE FOR THEIR PATIENTS BECAUSE THE BOTTOMLINE IS MORE IMPORTANT.

AND AT A CERTAIN POINT WHEN YOU CAN'T PUT YOUR PATIENTS FIRST AND YOU FEEL LIKE ARE YOU DOING MORE HARM THAN GOOD WHEN YOU SHOW UP EVERY DAY, YOU JUST CANNOT RECONCILE, YOU KNOW, THE ETHICAL STANDARD OF THAT.

SO NURSES WILL TAKE SO MUCH AND THEN THEY WILL MOVE AWAY FROM THE BEDSIDE.

AND YOU WORRY WHEN WE ALL GET OLDER, WHEN OUR CHILDREN ARE GRANDPARENTS, WHO IS GOING TO BE THERE.

I WORRY ABOUT THAT MYSELF.

>> YOU KNOW, I HAVE HEARD A LOT OF THE RHETORIC AND I DON'T MEAN THAT IN A PERJORATIVE WAY WHICH ALWAYS MADE SENSE TO ME, ABOUT YOU NEED ONLY A REASONABLE NUMBER OF PEOPLE UNDER THE CARE OF A NURSE.

BUT IN THIS VIDEO YOU QUANTITY FIE IT IN A WAY THAT REALLY IS SHOCKING.

YOU QUALL IT THE LANCE ET WHICH IS OBVIOUSLY ONE OF THE MOST RESPECTED MEDICAL PUBLICATIONS IN THE WORLD FROM THE U.K. SAYING THAT THE ODDS OF A PATIENT IN THE HOSPITAL DYING GO UP SEVEN PERCENT FOR EVERY ADDITIONAL PATIENT THAT HIS OR HER NURSE SERVES.

DID I GET THAT RIGHT?

>> THAT'S ABSOLUTELY TRUE.

SO EVERY PATIENT OVER FOUR PATIENTS THAT A NURSE CARES FOR HAS THE RISK OF ALL KINDS OF COMPLICATIONS INCLUDING DEATH.

WHEN A NURSE CANNOT PICK UP ON SUBTLE CHANGES IN A PATIENT'S CONDITION, WHEN THEY CAN'T GIVE THEM THE TIME AND ATTENTION THEY NEED, PEOPLE FALL THROUGH THE CRACKS.

AND THAT PERSON IS A LOVED ONE.

AND IT IS SAD TO SEE BUT MONEY COMES BEFORE PATIENTS AND THESE HOSPITAL INDUSTRIES AND IT'S BEEN GOING ON FOR YEARS AND IT'S SOMETHING THAT IS, THE PUBLIC IS NOT VENSLY AWARE OF.

YOU WALK INTO A HOSPITAL, YOU THINK THERE ARE ENOUGH NURSES, YOU ARE GOING TO GET THE CARE YOU NEED BUT IN THE END PATIENTS SUFFER.

AND NURSES CAN'T RECONCILE THEMSELVES WITH THAT ANY LONGER.

>> YOU KNOW WHAT IS REALLY DEPRESSING.

YOU WATCH THE VIDEO AND I THINK MOST PEOPLE SEE IT.

WILL SAY SOMETHING HAS GOT TO BE DONE.

AND THEN YOU DO A LITTLE SEARCH AND YOU FIND OUT THAT YOU AND YOUR COLLEAGUES PUT A QUESTION ON THE BALLOT IN MASSACHUSETTS TO DO IT REASONABLE STAFFING LEVEL.

IT IT IT WAS CRUSHED 70-30, AND THEN YOU READ A LITTLE MORE AND FIND OUT IT'S BECAUSE THE OPPOSITION, THE HOSPITAL INDUSTRY SPENT 25 MILLION TO QUIL IT.

IT CAN'T BE DONE IN A HOSPITAL BY HOSPITAL BASIS.

NOT EVERYBODY IS WILLING TO GO ON STRIKE FOR A YEAR OF THEIR LIVES TO DO THIS.

SO WHAT IS THE PATH FROM HERE TO THERE SO THAT WE DON'T WAKE UP SOME DAY AND FIND THE WHOLE SYSTEM IS IMPLODED MARLENA.

>> THE PATH IS THAT PEOPLE NEED TO PAY ATTENTION.

THE PUBLIC NEEDS TO PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT IS GOING ON IN HOSPITALS.

AND WE NEED THE LEGISLATION TO LIMIT THE NUMBER OF PATIENTS A NURSE CARES FOR.

EVERY PATIENT IN THE BED IS SOMEONE'S FAMILY MEMBER AND IT MIGHT NOT MEAN ANYTHING TO YOU UNTIL YOU WALK INTO A HOSPITAL AND ARE LOOKING FOR THAT PURSES HUSBAND OR WIFE, WAITING FOR PAIN MEDICATION, WAITING FOR A PATIENT TO COME OUT OF SURGERY, YOU CAN'T GET UPDATES ON PATIENTS.

IT IS SOMETHING THAT IS VERY IMPORTANT BUT I THINK THE PUBLIC HAS BEEN NAIVE TO THE FACT THAT IT ITS THAT BEEN GOING ON.

I DON'T THINK THAT PEOPLE CAN RECONCILE THEMSELVES WITH THE FACT THAT THESE CORPORATIONS PUT PROFITS AND THEIR WILLINGNESS TO PUT POWER AND GREED AHEAD OF PATIENT SAFETY IS REAL.

>> Braude: STEP ONE IN GETTING RID OF IT NAIVE TAYE IS TO WATCH THAT VIDEO OP ED IN "THE NEW YORK TIMES," MARLENA CONGRATULATIONS ON YOUR CONTRACT AND YOUR WORK.

I REALLY HOPE YOU STAY AT IT.

GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH, FOR HAVING ME, IT'S AN HONOR.

>> Braude: TODAY IS INTERNATIONAL HOLOCAUST REMEMBRANCE DAY.

A DAY SET ASIDE NEARLY TWO DECADES AGO TO HONOR THE 6 MILLION JEWISH VICTIMS OF THE HOLOCAUST AND MILLIONS MORE WHO WERE KILLED BY THE NAZIS.

AND AS THE FOUNDER OF FACES OF COVID ON TWITTER ALEX GOLDSTEIN NOTED TODAY THE PANDEMIC HAS CLAIMED THE LIVES OF MANY HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS WHO DESERVED MORE YEARS TO EDUCATE AND TELL THEIR STORIES.

GOLDSTEIN SHARED SEVERAL OF THOSE STORIES TODAY WHICH IS KINDLY ALLOWED US TO BRING YOU HERE AS WELL.

INCLUDING ITALO SERVI OF MASSACHUSETTS, WHO ESCAPED DEPORTATION INTO NAZI DEATH CAMPS AND MET HIS WIFE WHILE STUDYING AT MIT.

RABBI AVRAHAM ROMI COHN OF NEW YORK CITY WHO SAVED 56 FAMILIES WHILE FIGHTING THE NADZIS WITH A GROUP OF JEWISH PARTISANS IN CZECHOSLOVAKIA.

RUTH DAVID OF IOWA WHO ESCAPED THE HOLOCAUST VIA THE KINDERTRANSPORT AT AGE TEN AND DEDICATED HER LIFE TO TEACHING ITS HORRORS, WILL QUM GOOD OF CALIFORNIA WHO HID IN THE WOODS WITH HIS FATHER SABOTAGING NAZI RAIL LINES, HE CAME TO AMERICA AFTER THE WAR AND BECAME A BELOVED PHYSICIAN.

LILLIAN ECKSTEIN OF NEW YORK WHO SURVIVED AUSCHWITZ, SAVING LIVES BY STEALING FOOD FOR OTHERS.

SHE SAID GOOD-BYE TO HER FAMILY OVER THE PHONE.

AS ALEX GOLDSTEIN PUT IT MAY THEIR MEMORIES BE A BLESSING AND THEIR LIGHT NEVER BE EXTINGUISHED, THESE ARE JUST SOME OF THE STORIES HE SHARED TODAY, FIND MORE AT TWITTER.COM/FACES OF COVID, AND IF YOU LOST SOMEONE YOU LOVED TO THE PANDEMIC, YOU CAN SCARE YOUR-- SHARE YOUR STORY THERE AS WELL.

THAT IS IT FOR TONIGHT, COME BACK FOR TALKING POLITICS, NEARLY TWO YEARS INTO THE PANDEMIC SHOULD POLICY MAKERS BE DOING MORE.

ADULT PARENTS AND CAREGIVERS OF THE YOUNGEST KIDS PLUS BOSTON EMPLOYEE VACS NAN MANDATE EXTENDED AGAIN AND THE RACE FOR GOVERNOR HAS A NEW CANDIDATE, THAT AND MORE TOMORROW AT 07 CLOCK ON TALKING POLITICS.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.

PLEASE STAY SAFE.