>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO. "

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

[ CHANTING ] >> STILL ON THE STREET, PROTESTERS STAND UP IN MINNEAPOLIS AS SOME REPUBLICANS COME OUT AGAINST THE TRUMP TEAM'S IMMIGRATION TACTICS.

AND - - >> THIS IS CRUELTY.

THIS IS INHUMANE, AND THIS IS A DEATH SENTENCE.

>> HAITIANS IN AMERICA BRACE FOR DEPORTATION.

I ASK PRESIDENT BIDEN'S FORMER ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE ABOUT THE DANGERS OF SENDING THEM BACK TO A COUNTRY RIDDLED WITH GANG VIOLENCE.

> >> THEN --?

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>> HATE RADIO.

THE UNNERVING STORY OF HOW THE RWANDAN AIR WAVES PAVED THE WAY FOR GENOCIDE.

PLAYWRIGHT MILO RAU JOINS ME.

> >> PLUS -- >> THAT TECHNOLOGY IS NOW BEING USED TO DETERMINE WHETHER SOMEBODY SHOULD BE DEPORTED.

>> THE I. C. E. SURVEILLANCE STATE.

JOSEPH COX TELLS HARI SREENIVASAN HOW THE U. S. GOVERNMENT IS USING NEW TECH TO WRITE UP TARGET LISTS.

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>> Announcer: "AMANPOUR & CO. "

IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI- SEMITISM, THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU!

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M PAULA NEWTON IN NEW YORK SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

THE WHOLE WORLD IS WATCHING WHAT'S HAPPENING IN MINNESOTA.

THE STATE AT THE CENTER OF PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP'S IMMIGRATION CRACKDOWN.

MINNEAPOLIS MAYOR JACOB FREY SAYS LOCAL POLICE WON'T ENFORCE FEDERAL IMMIGRATION POLICY.

PRESIDENT TRUMP TELLS HIM HE'S, QUOTE, PLAYING WITH FIRE.

SOME REPUBLICANS THOUGH ARE NOW SPEAKING OUT AFTER THE KILLING OF ICU NURSE ALEX PRETTI.

SENATOR THOM TILLIS RAILING AGAINST BOTH HOMELAND SECURITY CHIEF KRISTI NOEM AND TOP WHITE HOUSE ADVISER STEPHEN MILLER.

>> STEPHEN MILLER NEVER FAILS TO LIVE UP TO MY EXPECTATIONS OF INCOMPETENCE.

I --I'M GOING TO LEAVE THAT UP TO THE PRESIDENT.

I CAN TELL YOU IF I WERE PRESIDENT, NEITHER ONE OF THEM WOULD BE IN WASHINGTON RIGHT NOW.

>> YOU THINK NOEM SHOULD STEP DOWN?

>> I THINK NOEM NEEDS TO DECIDE WHAT --I MEAN, I THINK IF NOEM LOOKS AT HER BODY OF WORK, I COULD NOT BE --IF I WERE IN HER POSITION, I CAN'T THINK OF ANY POINT OF PRIDE OVER THE LAST YEAR.

SHE'S GOT TO MAKE HER OWN DECISION OR THE PRESIDENT DOES, BUT SHE IS TAKING THIS ADMINISTRATION INTO THE GROUND ON AN ISSUE WE SHOULD OWN.

WE SHOULD OWN THE BORDER SECURITY, BUT THEY'VE DESTROYED THAT FOR THE PRESIDENT.

SOMETHING THAT GOT THE PRESIDENT ELECTED.

THEY HAVE DESTROYED IT THROUGH THEIR INCOMPETENCE.

>> SO HEARING THAT, TRUMP RESPONDED BY CALLING SENATOR TILLIS A LOSER.

IN A FREQUENT TARGET OF TRUMP, CONGRESSWOMAN ILHAN OMAR WAS ATTACKED LAST NIGHT IN MINNEAPOLIS.

A MAN AS YOU SEE THERE, RAN AT OMAR SPRAYING WHAT IS STILL AN UNKNOWN SUBSTANCE.

THAT WAS BEFORE HE WAS TACKLED AND TAKEN AWAY.

THE UNDERSTATEMENT HERE, IT'S AN EXTRAORDINARILY TENSE TIME IN AMERICA, AND WE WANT TO GO STRAIGHT TO OUR KEVIN LIPTAK WHO'S BEEN FOLLOWING DEVELOPMENTS THERE FOR US IN WASHINGTON.

WE'VE SEEN A LOT OF MOVEMENTS FROM THE ADMINISTRATION IN THE LAST 48 HOURS.

PERHAPS IT'S A PIVOT.

IS IT OPTICS THOUGH?

AND I AM WONDERING WHAT DISCERNIBLE CHANGE PEOPLE IN MINNESOTA MAY SEE ON THE GROUND IF ANY.

>> I MEAN, I THINK WHAT YOU HAVE NOT SEEN SO FAR IS ANY PULLBACK OF THESE WIDE- SCALE IMMIGRATION ENFORCEMENT OPERATIONS.

THERE'S NO INDICATION THAT FOR EXAMPLE, THE AGENTS THAT HAVE BEEN CAUSING SO MUCH ANGER AMONG THE COMMUNITY THERE HAVE STARTED DEPARTING, AND, IN FACT, JUST YESTERDAY, WE SAW AN OPERATION THAT GOT A LOT OF HEADLINES WHEN I. C. E. AGENTS TRIED TO ENTER THE ECUADORIAN CONSULATE WHICH DREW A LOT OF ANGER FROM THE GOVERNMENT OF ECUADOR.

YOU ARE STILL SEEING SOME OF THESE OPERATIONS UNDER WAY, AND I THINK IT JUST UNDERSCORES THAT THE CHANGES AND THE PIVOT THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP SEEMS TO HAVE BEEN PUTTING IN PLACE IS NOT A CHANGE IN POLICY.

IT SEEMS TO BE A CHANGE IN TACTICS, AND WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT TOM HOMAN WHO IS THE PRESIDENT'S BORDER CZAR WHO HAS BEEN SENT TO MINNESOTA TO SORT SOLVE SUPPLANT THE LEADERSHIP THAT HAD BEEN IN PLACE THERE PREVIOUSLY, THIS IS NOT SOMEONE WHO IS OPPOSED TO THE PRESIDENT'S TACTICS.

TOM HOMAN IS A HARDLINER THROUGH AND THROUGH.

THE DIFFERENCE IS WHAT HE SEES -- OR HOW HE SEES ALL OF THIS PLAYING OUT.

HE ISN'T NECESSARILY IN FAVOR OF THESE WIDESPREAD SWEEPS OF THE COMMUNITY TO TRY AND LOOK FOR EVERY UNDOCUMENTED MIGRANT THAT MIGHT BE LIVING THERE.

HIS GOAL IS FOR MUCH MORE TARGETED OPERATIONS GOING AFTER MIGRANTS WHO MAY HAVE CRIMINAL HISTORIES, WHO MAY BE VIOLENT CRIMINALS AND TRY AND GO AFTERTHEM AFTER THEM IN A MUCH MORE TARGETED WAY.

OF COURSE, THE OTHER OBJECTIVE SEEMS TO HAVE BEEN TO TRY AND COOL TEMPERATURES WITH LOCAL LEADERS IN MINNESOTA, WITH THE GOVERNOR TIM WALZ, WITH THE MAYOR, JACOB FREY, AND IT HAD SEEMED UNTIL A COUPLE OF HOURS AGO, THAT THAT WAS WORKING, YOU KNOW, TOM HOMAN MET WITH THEM ON THE GROUND.

BOTH SIDES OF THOSE CONVERSATIONS CAME AWAY SAYING THAT THEY WERE PRODUCTIVE.

TOM HOMAN ACKNOWLEDGING THAT YES, THEY WOULD CONTINUE TO HAVE DISAGREEMENTS, BUT THAT THERE WAS SOME PROGRESS MADE.

OF COURSE, NOW PRESIDENT TRUMP COMING OUT THIS MORNING WARNING JACOB FREY THAT HE WAS PLAYING WITH FIRE BY SAYING THAT HE WOULD NOT ALLOW SOME OF THESE FEDERAL ENFORCEMENT OFFICIALS TO OPERATE IN THE STATE AND CALLING FOR THEM TO WITHDRAW ENTIRELY.

IT DOES SEEM TO BE REIGNITING SOME OF THOSE TENSIONS THAT INITIALLY AT LEAST HAD SEEMED TO BE EASING.

>> YEAH, AND YOU CAN IMAGINE THAT IN MINNESOTA ON THE GROUND, THAT CERTAINLY THE FEAR REMAINS.

NOW WE HAD PEOPLE EVEN LIKE SENATE MAJORITY LEADER JOHN THUNE, AND KEVIN, THIS REALLY GOT MY ATTENTION BECAUSE HE REFUSED TO BACK HOMELAND SECURITY KRISTI NOEM, AND NOW YOU HAVE THIS PERHAPS NEW SCRUTINY OF STEPHEN MILLER, RIGHT?

HE'S A DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF THERE AT THE WHITE HOUSE.

DO YOU THINK THERE IS A BROADER SHIFT GOING ON WITH THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AT THE MOMENT?

I MEAN, I HAVE HEARD MORE THAN ONE REPUBLICAN POLITICIAN SAY THE PRESIDENT IS GETTING BAD ADVICE.

NOT SAYING STEPHEN MILLER, BUT PRETTY MUCH POINTING IN HIS DIRECTION.

>> RIGHT, AND WE SHOULD SAY STEPHEN MILLER, HIS TITLE IS DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF WHICH VERY MUCH UNDERSTATES HOW MUCH POWER AND HOW MUCH INFLUENCE HE HAS IN THE WEST WING.

THE PRESIDENT VERY MUCH RELIES ON STEPHEN MILLER AND HAS RELIED ON STEPHEN MILLER FOR THE BETTER PART OF A DECADE FOR ALMOST ALL OF HIS POLICY ADVICE, WHETHER IT'S ON IMMIGRATION OR MOST RECENTLY, IN THIS TERM WHETHER IT'S ON FOREIGN POLICY AND ANY NUMBER OF ISSUES, AND SO YES.

YOU DO HEAR REPUBLICANS BEGIN TO WHISPER THAT STEPHEN MILLER IS A BAD INFLUENCE ON THE PRESIDENT, THAT HE IS SUGGESTING POLICIES THAT ARE NOT BENEFITTING THE PRESIDENT'S EITHER OBJECTIVES OR HIS POLITICS, BUT I THINK IT'S STILL A VERY FAR CRY FROM THE PRESIDENT DISMISSING STEPHEN MILLER.

THIS IS SOMEONE WHO HAS BEEN AROUND THE PRESIDENT FOR QUITE A LONG TIME.

THE PRESIDENT HAS SAID IN THE PAST THAT, YES, STEPHEN MILLER IS SOMEONE WHO IS OUT THERE IN A LOT OF WAYS, BUT STILL I THINK THE PRESIDENT MAINTAINS A LOT OF CONFIDENCE IN HIM TO CARRY OUT HIS AGENDA.

WHEN IT COMES TO KRISTI NOEM, I THINK THE STORY MIGHT BE A LITTLE DIFFERENT.

CERTAINLY FOR NOW, THE PRESIDENT IS STICKING WITH KRISTI NOEM.

HE SAID VERY EXPLICITLY YESTERDAY THAT HE DID NOT EXPECT HER TO RESIGN.

HE HELD THIS LENGTHY MEETING WITH HER IN THE OVAL OFFICE EARLIER THIS WEEK THAT CAME AT HER REQUEST, AND THERE WAS NO INDICATION OVER THE COURSE OF THOSE TWO HOURS THAT SHE WAS EXPECTING TO SEE HER JOB PULLED OUT FROM UNDER HER.

I DO THINK IT'S NOTABLE WHEN YOU START TO HEAR SOME OF THESE SENATORS COME OUT AND BE VERY CRITICAL OF THE JOB SHE'S DONE.

CERTAINLY THAT'S AN INDICATION OF A SHIFTING POSITION, BUT THOM TILLIS, WE SHOULD NOTE, IS NOT RUNNING FOR RE-ELECTION.

HE HAS NOW BECOME ONE OF THE TOP CRITICS OF THE PRESIDENT'S.

THE OTHER SENATOR THAT WE HEARD FROM YESTERDAY, LISA MURKOWSKI IS SOMETHING WHO HAS ALSO NEVER HELD HER TONGUE IN HER CRITICISM OF PRESIDENT TRUMP WHO WE HAVE NOT HEARD FROM YET ARE THE PRESIDENT'S LOYALISTS.

THEY'RE STILL VERY MUCH BACKING THE PRESIDENT IN ALL OF HIS PERSONNEL DECISIONS.

>> YOU WONDER WHAT ALL OF THEM MAY HEAR WHEN THEY HEAD BACK HOME IN TERMS OF THE CTICS IN MINNESOTA.

KEVIN LIPTAK, APPRECIATE IT.

> >> WE'LL TURN TO WHAT HAPPENED WITH THE HAITIAN COMMUNITY.

IN LESS THAN A WEEK, HAITIANS IN THE UNITED STATES ARE SET TO LOSE WHAT'S CALLED TEMPORARY PROTECTED STATUS.

IN OTHER WORDS, 350,000 HAITIANS ARE AT RISK NOW OF BEING DEPORTED.

SOME U. S. LAWMAKERS ARE ALREADY RINGING ALARM BELLS WARNING THAT SENDING THEM BACK TO HAITI AMOUNTS TO A DEATH SENTENCE.

THE UNITED NATIONS WARNS THAT ARMED GANGS AND THE VIOLENCE THEY ARE PERPETRATING JUST CONTINUES TO ESCALATE WITH IN RECENT MONTHS, MORE THAN 8,000 KILLINGS, AND THAT'S HOW MANY WERE DOCUMENTED JUST IN THE LAST YEAR.

BRIAN A. NICHOLS FOCUSED ON HAITI DURING HIS TIME UNDER PRESIDENT BIDEN'S ADMINISTRATION.

HE WAS THE ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WESTERN HEMISPHERE AFFAIRS AND HE JOINS US NOW FROM WASHINGTON, D. C. GRATEFUL TO YOU AS WE TRY AND TURN OUR ATTENTION.

AS IT'S HAPPENED MANY TIMES, IT HAS NOT EFFECTED ANY CHANGE AND WE NEED TO GET TO WHAT IS A CORE CONTRADICTION RIGHT NOW IN THE STATE DEPARTMENT YOU USED TO WORK FOR.

IT MAINTAINS THIS LEVEL FOR 4 DO NOT TRAVEL TO HAITI FOR GANG LEVEL VIOLENCE THERE, AND AT THE SAME TIME, DHS, THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY IS SAYING, HEY.

350 HAITIANS, YOU ARE NO LONGER PROTECTED HERE IN THE STATUS.

YOU NEED TO GO HOME.

DHS IS OFFERING 1,000 BUCKS TO SELF-DEPORT.

I MEAN, HOW DANGEROUS DO YOU BELIEVE THIS NEW POLICY IS FOR HAITIANS, AND WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE WILL COME OUT OF IT?

>> WELL, THIS IS A CRUCIAL TIME IN HAITI.

HAITI'S IN A PROLONGED POLITICAL SECURITY, HUMANITARIAN AND ECONOMIC CRISIS.

PORT-AU-PRINCE, THE CAPITAL, IS RIDDLED WITH GANGS.

THE INTERIM GOVERNMENT IN HAITI HAS MADE PROGRESS IN RECENT WEEKS IN GOING AFTER GANGS AND THEIR LEADERS WHO ARE ALL INTERNATIONALLY SANCTIONED, BUT THE VIOLENCE, THE RAPES, THE MURDERS, THE ASSAULTS THAT HAITIANS PARTICULARLY IN THE AREA WHERE MOST HAITIANS LIVE IS CRITICALLY BAD, AND I WOULD ADD THAT THE IMPACT OF REMOVING 350,000 HAITIANS TO THEIR OWN COUNTRY FROM THE UNITED STATES WOULD ALSO BE A TREMENDOUS ECONOMIC BLOW TO HAITI BECAUSE MANY, MANY OF THOSE PEOPLE PROVIDE ECONOMIC REMITTENCES, PAYMENTS TO THEIR FAMILY MEMBERS IN HAITI, AND THE ECONOMY THERE IS ALREADY IN A SERIOUS RECESSION.

SO LOSING THOSE REMITTENCES WOULD ALSO DRAMATICALLY HARM HAITI AS A NATION.

>> IT IS SUCH A GOOD POINT, ESPECIALLY AT SUCH A CRITICAL TIME FOR AID BEING CUT BY SO MANY GOVERNMENTS NOW INCLUDING THE UNITED STATES.

I DO WANT TO GIVE PEOPLE THE CONTEXT OF WHICH YOU SPEAK.

YOU KNOW, YOU NOTED HOW BAD THE SITUATION WAS WHEN YOU LEFT A YEAR AGO, AND THINGS HAVE GOTTEN SO MUCH WORSE.

JUST TO GIVE PEOPLE SOME INSIGHT, THE U. N. SAYS GANGS CONTROL UP TO 90% OF THE CAPITAL.

THAT'S INCLUDING ALL MAJOR ROADS AND PORTS.

AS WE WERE SAYING, OVER 8,000 PEOPLE KILLED IN 2025 ALONE IN GANG VIOLENCE.

MORE THAN 1.

4 MILLION HAITIANS ARE INTERNALLY DISPLACED FROM THEIR HOMES, AND MORE THAN 6 MILLION --I WANT TO POINT OUT, THAT IS WELL OVER HALF THE POPULATION IN NEED OF HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE.

YOU KNOW, I KNOW THIS IS GOING TO BE PERHAPS A NAIVE QUESTION, BUT PEOPLE ARE WONDERING, GIVEN ALL THE EFFORTS OF YOU AND OTHERS, WHY ARE THINGS STILL SO MUCH WORSE?

>> WELL, HAITI HAS LONG BEEN SUFFERING AT THE HANDS OF A PERNICIOUS ELITE THAT HAS EXPLOITED THE SECURITY SITUATION FOR THEIR OWN BENEFIT INCLUDING NOW SOME MEMBERS OF THE TRANSITIONAL PRESIDENTIAL COUNCIL IN HAITI.

THE SITUATION THERE, I MEAN, YOU COULD GO BACK TO THE FOUNDING OF HAITI WHERE THE COUNTRY WAS SADDLED WITH ENORMOUS DEBTS THAT IT HAD TO REPAY TO ITS FORMER COLONIAL MASTER, FRANCE, AND OVER TIME, HAITI HAS FAILED TO ACHIEVE ECONOMIC STABILITY, BUT HAITI HAVE A MUCH BETTER FUTURE, AND I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS DONE SOME POSITIVE THINGS.

I THINK THE CREATION OF THE GANG SUPPRESSION FORCE WITH THE U. N. MANDATE THAT WILL INCREASE THE FUNDING AND RESOURCES GOING FOR SECURITY IN ITI IS A VERY IMPORTANT STEP.

THE CONVERSION OF THE MANDATE TO ONE THAT HAS --THE U. N. MANDATE THAT HAS A POLITICAL COMPONENT WILL HELP AS WELL, BUT HAITI ALSO NEEDS DRAMATICALLY INCREASED ECONOMIC AND HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE.

JUST TODAY, DOCTORS WITHOUT BORDERS RELEASED A REPORT TALKING ABOUT THE SURGE IN RAPES IN HAITI, AND THAT'S JUST ONE OF THE MANY SCOURGES THAT HAITIANS ARE DEALING WITH.

>> ABSOLUTELY, AND THAT HAS BEEN GOING ON IN HAITI UNFORTUNATELY FOR MANY YEARS, AND YET, YOU KNOW, YOU SPEAK OF NATIONS WHETHER IT WAS THE U. S. , CANADA, THE U. N. ALSO OBVIOUSLY TRYING TO GET INVOLVED ON THE GROUND.

NOT MUCH HAS CHANGED.

THE POLITICAL SITUATION RIGHT NOW AT THIS HOUR REMAINS FRAUGHT.

I MEAN, HAITI'S GOVERNED BY THIS NINE- MEMBER TRANSITIONAL GOVERNMENTAL COUNCIL WITH SEVEN VOTING MEMBERS.

IT WAS CREATED IN 2024 AS YOU POINTED OUT, TO TRY TO STEER THE COUNTRY THROUGH WHAT EVERYONE WANTS THIS IS FAIR AND FREE ELECTIONS.

WHICH TO BE FRANK RIGHT NOW, SEEMS LIKE A DREAM.

A FEW DAYS AGO, FIVE OF THOSE SEVEN MOVED TO OUST THE PRIME MINISTER WEEKS BEFORE THE COUNCIL'S MANDATE EXPIRES AND THAT'S SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN NEXT WEEK.

YOU KNOW, THE U. S. HAS CALLED THE MOVE ILLEGAL AND WARNED OF CONSEQUENCES, BUT, YOU KNOW, I'M GOING TO ASK YOU A QUESTION THAT NO ONE IN HAITI CAN ANSWER RIGHT NOW.

IF YOU SPEAK TO ITS CITIZENS, THEY CAN'T.

WHO HOLDS LEGITIMATE AUTHORITY IN THAT COUNTRY RIGHT NOW, AND IT SEEMS LIKE ANY EFFORT TO TRY AND STABILIZE THE POLITICAL SITUATION ENDS UP IN FAILURE.

>> WELL, SINCE THE 2021 ASSASSINATION OF THE LAST ELECTED PRESIDENT IN HAITI, THERE'S BEEN A SERIES OF INTERIM LEADERSHIP IN THE TRANSITIONAL PRESIDENTIAL COUNCIL THAT WAS CREATED WITH THE PARTICIPATION OF THE HAITIAN STAKEHOLDERS AND THE MEDIATION OF THE UNITED STATES, THE CARIBBEAN COMMUNITY, CANADA, OTHERS, THE U. N. , TO TRY AND FIND A PATH FORWARD TO ELECTIONS, BUT THAT WAS A LIMITED TERM WITH THE SPECIFIC MANDATE OF RESTORING SECURITY AND GETTING THE COUNTRY TO AN ELECTION.

THAT TERM IS UP ON FEBRUARY 7th.

THOSE PEOPLE NEED TO STEP ASIDE.

THEY HAVE DEMONSTRABLY FAILED TO UPHOLD THEIR PART OF THE BARGAIN.

I WOULD NOTE THAT THE PRIME MINISTER NOW HAS DONE A VERY GOOD JOB IN TRYING TO NAVIGATE A VERY DIFFICULT SECURITY, ECONOMIC, AND POLITICAL SITUATION, AND THE ATTEMPTS TO REMOVE HIM AND PROLONG THE PRESIDENTIAL COUNCIL REALLY FLIES IN THE FACE OF THE DESIRES OF THE HAITIAN PEOPLE WHO WANT AN ELECTION, BUT THE FIRST STEP TO AN ELECTION IN HAITI IS RESTORING SECURITY.

THEN YOU'VE GOT TO HAVE CAMPAIGNS.

YOU'VE GOT TO HAVE THE INFRASTRUCTURE IN PLACE FOR PEOPLE TO VOTE SAFELY, AND HOPEFULLY, YOU KNOW, BY THE END OF THIS YEAR OR INTO NEXT, YOU'LL BE ABLE TO HAVE AN ELECTION THAT REFLECTS THE WILL OF THE HAITIAN PEOPLE.

DOING SO PREMATURELY WOULD MEAN THAT GANG LEADERS ARE ABLE TO CONTROL THE POLITICAL ENVIRONMENT IN HAITI, AND THAT WOULD BE UNACCEPTABLE.

>> YEAH, BUT AS YOU UNDERSTAND, THEY LIKELY DO RIGHT NOW AS WELL WHICH IS WHY YOU HAVE SO MUCH TURMOIL IN THAT COUNCIL, AND SO I ASK YOU, IS THAT NOT WHAT HAITIANS ARE STARING DOWN AT THIS POINT?

MORE POLITICAL TURMOIL IN THE NEXT TWO OR THREE WEEKS, EVEN THOUGH AS YOU POINT OUT, THE UNITED STATES AND OTHER COUNTRIES SUPPORT THE PRIME MINISTER AND WHAT HE'S TRYING TO DO.

>> WELL, I THINK IT'S CRUCIAL THAT THE TRANSITIONAL PRESIDENTIAL COUNCIL STEP DOWN AT THE END OF THEIR TENURE ON FEBRUARY 7th.

I THINK THE PRIME MINISTER HAS DEMONSTRATED THAT HE IS ABLE TO TAKE THE STEPS NECESSARY TO MOVE THE COUNTRY IN A BETTER DIRECTION.

HE'S BEEN RESPECTED.

HE'S BEEN ACTIVE AND ENGAGED AND FOCUSED ON THE KEY ISSUES OF SECURITY AND TRYING TO DEAL WITH THE HUMANITARIAN AND ECONOMIC CRISIS IN THE COUNTRY.

THERE'S A DEBATE FLIGHT IN HAITI AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THEY WOULD HAVE, YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE MEMBERS OF THE TRANSITIONAL PRESIDENTIAL COUNCIL CONTINUE AS AN ACTING PRESIDENT.

HAITI'S CONSTITUTION CALLS FOR A TWO-HEADED GOVERNMENT WITH A PRESIDENT AND A PRIME MINISTER, AND THAT'S ONE OF THE DEBATES THAT'S GOING ON THERE.

I DO NOT SEE ANY SUPPORT REALLY FOR THE MEMBER --THE CURRENT MEMBERS OF THE TRANSITIONAL PRESIDENTIAL COUNCIL CONTINUING.

EVEN THE GROUPS THAT PUT THEM FORWARD FOR THOSE POSITIONS IN APRIL, 2024, HAVE LARGELY WITHDRAWN THEIR SUPPORT FROM THEM.

>> AGAIN THOUGH, IT DOESN'T SET UP A GOOD SITUATION IN THE WEEKS TO COME.

SINCE WE HAVE YOU, I DO WANT TO DISCUSS MORE OF THE BROADER ISSUE OF HEMISPHERIC AFFAIRS RIGHT NOW.

THE DON ROE DOCTRINE, YOU KNOW, YOU SAID THAT, IN FACT, WHEN YOU WERE IN OFFICE IN 2024 BEFORE THERE WAS A DON ROE DOCTRINE, THAT IN YOUR WORDS, THERE IS NO REGION THAT'S MORE IMPORTANT TO THE UNITED STATES AND THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE.

YOU KIND OF SUE AW THAT ECHOED IN THIS STATE DEPARTMENT POLICY.

YOU SPENT YOUR TENURE BUILDING WHAT YOU CALL A NETWORK OF PARTNERSHIPS.

THIS DOCTRINE HARMS THE OLD MONROE DROK MONROE DOCTRINE.

WE'VE SEEN PRESIDENT TRUMP REMOVE NICOLAS MADURO, BUT NOT HIS REGIME.

IT'S HARMING OTHER PLACES IN THE HEMISPHERE LIKE CUBA, AND LOW DO YOU VIEW THIS PIVOT IN THE HEMISPHERE BY THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION?

>> PRIORITIZING THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE IS IMPORTANT, BUT DOING SO IN A WAY THAT STRENGTHENS OUR PARTNERSHIPS AND OUR RELATIONS WITH THE COUNTRIES OF THIS REGION IS VITAL.

TO FORCE OUR WILL UPON THE OTHER COUNTRIES IN OUR HEMISPHERE AND TO EXERT VIOLENCE AND FORCE TO ACHIEVE OUR GOALS HARKENS BACK TO THE WORST TIMES IN OUR RELATIONSHIPS, AND SOWS THE SEEDS FOR FUTURE UNREST IN OUR REGION.

THERE'S GOING TO BE A BOUNCEBACK, A PUSHBACK FROM THIS TYPE OF POLICY THAT DOES NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE IDEAS, THE DESIRES, THE GOALS OF THE PEOPLES OF THIS HEMISPHERE, AND TO JUST COMPOSE OUR WILL AS A HEDGE IS NOT GOING TO SERVE THE LONGER TERM INTERESTS OF THE UNITED STATES.

EXEND THE --EXTENDING THE HANDS OF FRIENDSHIP, TRADE RELATIONS, ECONOMIC INVESTMENT, AND DEMOCRACY WHICH IS SOMETHING THAT THE SO-CALLED DON ROE DOCTRINE REALLY HAS OMITTED FROM ITS TOOL KIT.

IT HASN'T TAKEN STEPS TO -- >> IT IS POLICY ITSELF.

>> --CREATE DEMOCRATIC GOVERNMENT.

YES.

>> IT'S NOT JUST A DOCUMENT.

IT'S THE POLICY ITSELF.

WE DON'T HAVE A LOT OF TIME LEFT HERE -- >> IT'S THE POLICY.

>> YEAH.

I DON'T HAVE A LOT OF TIME TO GO HERE, BUT I DO WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT MARCO RUBIO WHO YOU KNOW HAS A LOT OF EXPERIENCE IN THE REGION, AND A LOT OF INTEREST IN THE REGION.

HE SAID TO THE U. S. SENATE FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE THAT THE U. S. PLANS TO ESTABLISH A DIPLOMATIC PRESENCE IN CARACAS AND CNN, WE'VE REPORTED THAT THE CIA IS ALSO PLANNING TO HAVE A FOOTHOLD IN VENEZUELA.

HOW DO YOU SEE THIS MIX OF DIPLOMATIC OUTREACH, BUT ALSO VERY COERCIVE RHETORIC AND ACTIONS?

>> WELL, I THINK THAT HAVING A DIPLOMATIC PRESENCE IN ALL OF THE COUNTRIES IN OUR HEMISPHERE SHOULD BE A POSITIVE THING, BUT THAT IMPLIES HAVING A REAL RELATIONSHIP WITH THE GOVERNMENTS AND RESPECTING THE WILL OF THE PEOPLES OF THIS REGION.

GIVEN ALL OF THE THINGS THAT GOT US TO THIS MOMENT, THE UNITED STATES SHOULD BE PUSHING FOR A DEMOCRATIC GOVERNMENT IN VENEZUELA.

MARIA CORINA MACHADO, DEMONSTRATED SHE SUPPORTS THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF VENEZUELAN CITIZENS.

THEY HAD AN ELECTION IN 2024 AND PROVED THAT WITHOUT A SHADOW OF A DOUBT.

THE REGION RECOGNIZES GONZALEZ AS THE PRESIDENT RUNNING IN --AS A PROXY FOR THE NOBEL PRIZE LAUREATE.

SO THIS IS A TIME TO PUSH FOR DEMOCRACY, NOT FOR AN AUTHORITARIAN GOVERNMENT.

>> RIGHT.

>> IN VENEZUELA THAT WILL ONLY PROVIDE US WITH OIL.

>> UH-HUH.

>> BUT NOT LONGER TERM STABILITY OR RESPECT THE WILL OF THE VENEZUELAN PEOPLE.

>> BRIAN A. NICHOLS, WE WILL HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE, BUT WE WILL OF COURSE, WATCH DEVELOPMENTS POLITICALLY ON THE GROUND IN HAITI, BUT ALSO WITH HAITIANS IN THE UNITED STATES AS THEY CONTINUE ACTUALLY TO HAVE SOME LEGAL CHALLENGES TO BEING DEPORTED.

BRIAN A. NICHOLS FOR US, APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

> >> NEXT TO THE POWER OF PROPAGANDA, AND A WARNING FROM RECENT HISTORY.

IN THE 1990s, RWANDA SAW A BRUTAL GENOCIDE OF AND IT UNFOLDED BY AN EXTRAORDINARY SPEED WITH SOME 1 MILLION PEOPLE KILLED IN ABOUT 100 DAYS.

THE WORLD WAS SHOCKED EVEN AS IT FAILED TO ACT, BUT THERE WERE WARNING SIGNS LIKE THE HATE- FILLED RADIO BROADCASTS THAT INCITED VIOLENCE, CONDEMNING TOOTSIES AS LESS THAN HUMAN, AND EVENTUALLY URGING LISTENERS TO COMMIT UNSPEAKABLE ATROCITIES.

THE THEATER PRODUCTION "HATE RADIO," TAKES US RIGHT INTO THE BROADCAST BOOTH OF RWANDA'S NOTORIOUS RADIO STATION RTLM.

NOW IT WAS FIRST PERFORMED IN 2011 AND NEXT MONTH IT COMES TO ST.

ANN'S WAREHOUSE IN NEW YORK AND ITS PLAYWRIGHT AND DIRECTOR, MILO RAU JOINS US FROM STOCKHOLM.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, SIR.

APPRECIATE IT.

>> HI.

HI.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> YOU KNOW, IT SEEMS AS IF WE'RE TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING INNOCUOUS.

IT IS ANYTHING BUT.

SO WHEN WE TALK ABOUT A RADIO PROGRAM FOR PEOPLE WHO MAY NOT BE FAMILIAR, WHAT WAS RTLM, AND WHAT IS ITS PLACE IN RWANDAN HISTORY?

>> THE HISTORY OF RTLM IS QUITE INTERESTING BECAUSE IT WAS CREATED AFTER THE OPENING --AFTER THE OPENING OF RWANDA ITSELF, AFTER THE CREATION OF DEMOCRACY THERE BY THE PLEDGE OF INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITIES.

THEY WANTED TO CREATE INDEPENDENT, PRIVATE RADIO STATIONS, AND IT WAS RTLM.

SO THE IDEA WAS VERY WELL, BUT IT CAME UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF EXTREMISTS, AND THAT'S HOW IT WAS CREATED AND IT PREPARED THE CHANNEL SITE AND VIEWING THE CHANNEL SITE, IT WAS EVEN A TOOL TO POINT ON PEOPLE WHERE THEY WERE HIDING, TO EVEN SPEED UP THE GENOCIDE, AND OF COURSE, IN THE LAST DAYS, IT WAS BOMBED AND THE DIFFERENT HOSTS, SOME DISAPPEARED AND SOME WERE TAKEN, AND EVEN STILL TODAY.

SO I COULD MEET SOME OF THEM.

>> YEAH, AND I'M SURE SOME OF THE STORIES WERE JUST HARD TO REALLY ENVISION IN TERMS OF HOW THIS ENDED UP PLAYING OUT IN THIS GENOCIDE.

CAN YOU GIVE SOME INSIGHT TO OUR AUDIENCES AS TO WHY YOU DECIDED TO RECREATE THESE BROADCASTS IN THIS --THIS PLAY, IN A THEATER?

WHICH SOME PEOPLE --IT WOULD BE CALLED DOCUMENTARY THEATER AND SOME PEOPLE ARE WONDERING WHY YOU FELT THIS WAS THE MOST POWERFUL VEHICLE TO DO IT IN.

>> I THINK IN THAT MOMENT, THERE WAS NO INHIBITION IN RWANDA.

THIS WAS THE FIRST INDEPENDENT RADIO STUDIO.

YOU CAN'T OVEREVALUATE THE INFLUENCE ON WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED, AND IT WAS OVER THIS RADIO THAT IN AN EVEN FUNNY WAY, SO WHEN YOU WATCH THE SHOW THAT WE DID, WHICH JUST SHOWS THE RADIO STUDIO, IT'S A LOT OF FUN.

IT'S VERY GOOD MUSIC.

IT'S A LOT OF DIFFERENT HOSTS.

IT'S A LOT OF DIFFERENT STORIES.

IT WAS EVEN A CALL-IN RADIO.

SO IT WAS VERY, VERY MODERN AT THAT VERY MOMENT FOR PEOPLE THAT WERE NOT USED TO THIS.

THEY WERE USED TO SPEECHES OF THE PRESIDENT, TO THE SKMIEKZ TO PRIESTS TALKING AND ALL OF A SUDDEN YOU HAVE THIS KIND OF CRAZY BOY GROUP.

IT WAS THE FUNNY GUY FROM THE CITY AND THEN IT WAS THE LADY TALKING TO THE MORE TRADITIONALIST PEOPLE FROM THE COUNTRYSIDE, AND EVERYBODY COULD IDENTIFY WITH THEM AND THEY MOVED MORE AND MORE, LET'S SAY, THE BARRIER OF WHAT YOU COULD SAY IN THE OPEN PUBLIC SPACE AND WHATNOT.

SO IT STARTED WITH LITTLE JOKES, RACIST JOKES, WITH SEXIST THINGS WITH LITTLE THEORIES, PUTTING PARANOIA ON THE LISTENERS AND IT WENT MORE AND MORE AND IN THE END, IT WAS REALLY KIND OF A STATION TO KIND OF COMMAND THE KILLINGS.

SO IT WAS A VERY FAST DEVELOPMENT, AND I THINK YOU CAN REALLY NOT OVERESTIMATE THE INFLUENCE OF THIS RADIO STUDIO.

EVEN --I MET A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT WERE IN THE ARMY LIBERATED RWANDA.

SO SOLDIERS, AND EVEN THEM, THEY LISTENED TO IT BECAUSE THEY LOVED THE MUSIC AND OF COURSE, THEY KNEW THEN WHAT THE OTHER SIDE WAS DOING, AND IT'S A SPECIFIC THING WE DO IN THIS SHOW.

WE NOT ONLY RECREATE THE SHOW.

WE RECREATE A SHOW AND ALL THE HOSTS IN THE STUDIO THAT YOU SEE ON STAGE ARE PLAYED BY SURVIVORS OF THE GENOCIDE.

SO YOU COULD SAY THAT THE VICTIMS ARE PLAYING THE PERPETRATORS, TELLING THEM WHY THEY SHOULD COMMIT GENOCIDE AGAINST THEMSELVES.

SO IT'S A VERY --IT'S A VERY HARD WAY OF STAGING IT AND TO UNDERSTANDING IT THE SAME WAY BECAUSE THE IMPRESSION, I HAVE TO WORK TOGETHER WITH THE PEOPLE THAT REALLY LISTENED TO THIS.

>> IT WOULD BE QUITE JARRING.

MILO, I DO WANT TO GIVE OUR AUDIENCE JUST AN IDEA OF WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE.

WE'RE GOING TO LISTEN TO AN EXCERPT, AND IT'S FROM A CALLER THAT CALLS IN TO THANK RTLM RADIO FOR WHAT THEY DO, AND THEY THEN WANT TO REQUEST A SONG.

LISTEN.

[ SPEAKING IN A GLOBAL LANGUAGE ] ?

I LIKE TO MOVE IT, MOVE IT ?

?

I LIKE TO MOVE IT, MOVE IT ?

>> BUT WE NEED TO MOVE IT, MOVE IT.

?

I LIKE TO MOVE IT, MOVE IT ?

>> YOU KNOW, IN TESTIMONY THAT I HAVE SEEN IN COURTS AND EXTRADITION HEARINGS FROM RWANDA, I HEARD A LOT OBVIOUSLY OF THIS CALL TO GENOCIDE WHICH WAS PRESENTED AS EVIDENCE, RIGHT?

IT WAS COLD, HARD EVIDENCE.

I HAD NOT HEARD A LOT OF THIS.

I HAD FORGOTTEN, AND IT IS SO JARRING.

HOW DO YOU RECONCILE THIS KIND OF PROGRAMMING WITH THE LEGACY OF RTLM'S GENOCIDAL LANGUAGE?

IT WAS INCREDIBLY HARSH AND DEHUMANIZING.

>> YEAH.

YEAH.

TRUE.

IT'S EXTREMELY HARSH, AND I THINK THE HARDEST PART OF IT AND YOU COULD HEAR IT IN THIS EXCERPT THAT IT IS MIXED WITH FUN, WITH GOOD MOOD.

SO WHEN WE MENTION FASCISM AND GENOCIDE ESPECIALLY IN EUROPE, WE SEE IT'S BLACK AND WHITE PICTURES OF HITLER AND ALL THIS KIND OF STUFF AND THEN YOU HAVE THIS RADIO STUDIO WHEN YOU PRESENT IT AND IT'S TOURING ON ALL CONTINENTS AND EVERYBODY THINKS IT'S FROM THEIR CITY BECAUSE IT LOOKS LIKE A RADIO STATION FROM TODAY, AND THAT MAKES IT EXTREMELY INFLUENTIAL AND EXTREMELY EFFECTIVE AT THAT VERY MOMENT, AND YOU HAVE SPEECHES THAT ARE SUPER DIRECT, SUPER POLITICAL AND THEN YOU HAVE THESE KIND OF JOKING ABOUT MUSIC AND CHOOSING THE PROGRAM.

WHEN WE PRESENTED IT THE FIRST TIME, IT WAS IN RWANDA, AND WE DID IT IN FRONT OF THE RWANDAN SENATE, AND THE WIFE OF THE --OF THE --OF THE DIRECTOR OF THE SENATE, SHE SURVIVED THE GENOCIDE, AND SHE SAID THAT FOR THE FIRST TIME, SHE LISTENED TO THESE SONGS AGAIN.

FOR EXAMPLE, "I LIKE TO MOVE IT, MOVE IT" BECAUSE SHE DIDN'T LISTEN TO THEM ANYMORE BECAUSE IT WAS ON THAT RADIO STATION.

SO IT'S THIS MIX THAT MAKES IT SO EFFECTIVE AND SO HORRIFIC THAT AS A PUBLIC, YOU EVEN START TO MOVE WITH THE MUSIC, YOU KNOW?

AND YOU START --YOU START LAUGHING WITH THE JOKES, AND THEN YOU FALL IMMEDIATELY INTO THE TRAP, AND THAT'S --I THINK THAT'S THE INTERESTING THING OF THE STUDIO AND WHY IT WAS SO EFFECTIVE.

>> WOW.

THAT IS A STARTLING THING THAT YOU SAY THAT --WHAT IS ESSENTIALLY POP MUSIC WOULD BE ASSOCIATED WITH GENOCIDE IN THAT WAY, AND I DO WANT TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT TWO WORDS THAT STICK OUT TO ME, WAS THE ISSUE OF THE WORD "COCKROACHES" AS IT WAS USED, BUT ALSO THE INTIMACY OF THE VIOLENCE THAT ACTUALLY WAS PERPETRATED.

FOR MANY YEARS, THIS RADIO STATION WAS REFERRED TO AS "RADIO MACHETE," AND THE DOCUMENTATION OF THE HORRIFIC VIOLENCE, NEIGHBOR ON NEIGHBOR, AND BRINGING --PULLING IT ALL BACK TO THIS KIND OF DIALOGUE ON THIS RADIO STATION, HOW POWERFUL WAS THAT FOR YOU IN STAGING THIS?

>> IT WAS EXTREMELY HARD.

IT WAS EXTREMELY HARD, BUT DESCRIBED AS COCKROACH FOR EXAMPLE.

IT WAS A WHOLE PROCESS OF DEHUMANIZATION, LACK OF HUMANIZATION BECAUSE OF THE ENEMY, BECAUSE OF THE GENOCIDE.

CREATING THE ENEMY, CREATING THAT THEY DIDN'T EXIST AS A GROUP OF PEOPLE.

IT WAS A CRAZY MIX OF ETHNIC ENEMIES AND POLITICAL ENEMIES AND SO ON, AND IT WAS REALLY SOMETHING HAPPENING IN A SLOW WAY.

IT WAS JUST JOKES AT FIRST AND THEN IT WOULD BECOME MORE SERIOUS AND SERIOUS AND AT THE END, IT BECAME VERY CLEARLY, YOU HAVE TO KILL THEM NOW AND WE CALL YOU TO KILL NOW.

THESE ARE PEOPLE THAT ARE HIDING IN THIS SCHOOL OR THAT SCHOOL OR IN THIS HOUSE AND THAT HOUSE.

EVEN POINTING NUMBERS OF CARS AND NUMBERS OF STREETS AND SO ON AND SO ON.

SO IT WAS SUPER EXPLICIT, AND AT THE SAME TIME, AS YOU SAY, SUPER PERSONAL.

YOU COULD CALL IN.

CHILDREN CALLED IN, YOU KNOW?

THEY WERE TALKING TO THE VICTIMS BEFORE KILLING THEM THROUGH THE RADIO, AND ALL THIS TOGETHER GIVES --GIVES A MIX THAT FOR ME, BEFORE I KNEW THIS RADIO WAS NOT --I DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT IT AND NOW IT BECAME VERY SENSITIVE TO HATE SPEECH.

PEOPLE ARE STARTING TO TALK LIKE THIS, AND MAKE KIND OF A POLITICAL PROBLEM, A POLITICAL SPEECH LIKE THIS MIXING FROM AND DEHUMANIZATION, AND CALLING METAPHORICALLY FOR KILLING THE ENEMY, BUT IT'S NOT MEANT LIKE THIS, BUT PERHAPS IT CAN BECOME REALITY.

SO THIS IS AN EXTREME EXAMPLE OF HOW A SOCIETY CAN SHIFT FROM DEMOCRACY, FROM PROPER CULTURE INTO SOMETHING EXTREMELY DARK.

>> THAT CONTEXT YOU GAVE US IS SO IMPORTANT.

AS YOU SAID, THIS WAS AFTER RWANDA WAS, YOU KNOW, HAD HAD ELECTIONS.

I WANT TO KIND OF GIVE VOICE TO THE SURVIVORS HERE WHO TALK ABOUT THIS AND JUST TO QUOTE ONE HERE, SAYING THAT --I'M QUOTING A SURVIVOR HERE.

"I DON'T BELIEVE IN AN END TO GENOCIDE.

I DON'T THINK THIS IS THE LAST TIME WE WILL EXPERIENCE THE MOST HEINOUS ATROCITIES.

IF THERE WAS ONLY ONE GENOCIDE, THERE WOULD BE MANY MORE. "

IT WAS STEEPED IN REALITY, HER TESTIMONY, AND YET WITH YOU, WITH THIS THEATER PRODUCTION, A VERY PROVOCATIVE ONE, HOW DO YOU SEE IT?

HOW DO YOU BELIEVE THIS WILL CONTRIBUTE TO UNDERSTANDING THE POWER OF HATE SPEECH?

>> YOU UNDERSTAND THE POWER OF HATE SPEECH REALLY BY LIVING IT IN THE ATMOSPHERE.

IT'S HOW THIS SHOW FUNCTIONS.

IT'S WHY I DID IT BY THE WAY.

I DID A LOT OF SHOWS ABOUT GENOCIDE, BUT ESPECIALLY ABOUT THE GENOCIDE IN RWANDA, AND THERE'S A WHOLE THING HOW WE TALK ABOUT IT.

FOR EXAMPLE, THERE WAS NEVER A WAY TO REALLY UNDERSTAND, TO REALLY BEING IMMERSED IN WHAT IT MEANS TO ALMOST AS I SAID, DANCING TO THE MUSIC AND TO UNDERSTAND THAT YOU CAN BECOME SUBJECT OF THIS KIND OF RADIO.

YOU CAN BECOME PERPETRATOR OF A GENOCIDE TOO WITHOUT EVEN TRYING TO UNDERSTAND BECAUSE IT GOES SLOW, AND I WANTED TO SHOW THAT.

I JUST WANTED TO GIVE TWO HOURS, AND THERE'S A PRODUCT THERE.

CAN YOU CALL THIS FROM ONE?

IT'S WHERE WE UNDERSTAND WHAT IS THE OUTCOME OF IT, WHAT IS THE REALITY OF ALL THIS FUN.

WHAT IS THE REALITY OF THIS?

AND I THINK IT'S KIND OF BALANCED THAT THE PLAY TRIES TO WITHSTAND.

>> CERTAINLY.

NOW THE PRODUCTION WILL BE IN NEW YORK, BUT GIVEN THE FIRST TIME YOU DID IT IN 2011, IT CLEARLY HAS MUCH RESONANCE BEYOND RWANDA.

MILO RAU, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

> >> SO FOR THE PAST YEAR, ABOUT 230,000 PEOPLE WERE ARRESTED IN THE UNITED STATES BY I. C. E. AND DEPORTED BY THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

THAT'S MORE THAN THE TOTAL NUMBER OF DEPORTEES DURING PRESIDENT BIDEN'S ENTIRE FOUR-YEAR TERM.

NOW UNDER TRUMP'S IMMIGRATION CRACKDOWN, I. C. E. AGENTS ARE PICKING PEOPLE OFF THE STREETS AND FROM THEIR HOMES AT A VERY HIGH RATE, BUT WHAT TOOLS ARE ENABLING THEM TO TARGET NEIGHBORHOODS?

JOSEPH COX IS THE FOUNDER OF 404 MEDIA AND HAS DONE EXTENSIVE REPORTING ON THE FEDERAL AGENCY AND ITS EXPANDING SURVEILLANCE TECHNOLOGIES.

HE SPEAKS TO HARI SREENIVASAN ABOUT THE ROLE OF PALANTIR AND FACILITATING ALL OF THIS.

>> THANK YOU.

JOSEPH COX, YOU AND YOUR TEAM AT 404 HAVE BEEN DOING A SERIES OF STORIES ABOUT HOW TECHNOLOGY IS BEING USED IN THE MASS DEPORTATIONS AND RAIDS WE'RE SEEING AROUND THE COUNTRY BY I. C. E. IN ONE OF YOUR MOST RECENT ARTICLES, IT WAS TITLED TITLED TITLED TITLED "ELITE: THE PALANTIR APP THAT I. C. E. USES TO RAID. "

YOU WRITE, PALANTIR IS WORKING ON A TOOL FOR IMMIGRATION AND CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT AND BRINGS UP A DOSSIER ON EACH PERSON AND PROVIDES A CONFIDENCE SCORE ON THE PERSON'S CURRENT ADDRESS.

NOW YOU'VE LEARNED THAT I. C. E. IS USING IT TO FIND LOCATIONS WHERE LOTS OF PEOPLE IT MIGHT DETAIN COULD BE BASED.

HOW DOES THIS WORK?

>> SO IT IS A MAP INTERFACE AND AN I. C. E. OFFICIAL WILL SIMPLY DRAW A CIRCLE OR A SQUARE ONTO THAT MAP, AND ALL OF THESE SMALL PINS WILL APPEAR.

THEY'LL THEN CLICK ONTO ONE OF THOSE PINS AND THAT WILL BE A SPECIFIC PERSON WHERE I. C. E. IS SORT OF VERNACULAR, A TARGET.

IT WILL BE THEIR DATE OF BIRTH, A PHOTO IF THEY HAVE IT, THEIR NAME, AND THE ADDRESS, THE ADDRESS CONFIDENCE SCORE.

ELSEWHERE IN THE USER GUIDE I OBTAINED EXPLAINING HOW THIS TOOL WORKS IT SAYS THESE ADDRESSES CAN COME FROM THE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES, U. S. CIS WHICH IS PART OF DHS, AND VARIOUS OTHER SOURCES AS WELL.

IT SEEMS TO BE A TOOL THAT BRINGS TOGETHER DATA FROM ALL OF THESE USUALLY SEPARATE PLACES AND SOURCES AND BRINGS IT INTO A SORT OF ALL IN ONE SINGLE TOOL THAT I. C. E. CAN USE TO FIND NEIGHBORHOODS TO RAID, MAYBE WRITE UP TARGET LISTS, AND EVENTUALLY SUPERVISORS TO APPROVE THOSE LISTS AND SEND PEOPLE OUT INTO THE FIELD.

>> SO HOW DID YOU CONFIRM THE CONNECTION BETWEEN I. C. E. AND THE COMPANY PALANTIR?

>> SO ELITE IS AN ACRONYM, AND THEN IN THE USER GUIDE, THE FULL TEXT OF THAT WAS SPELLED OUT.

I THEN --AS I USUALLY DO WHEN I GET LEAKED DOCUMENTS, YOU STARTED GOOGLING AROUND.

THE ONLY MENTION OF THAT SPELLED OUT ACRONYM ON THE ENTIRE WEB WAS INCLUDED IN A PALANTIR CONTRACT FOR $29.

9 MILLION.

SO ME, THAT MADE A VERY SOLID LINK BETWEEN THIS PARTICULAR TOOL AND PALANTIR AND OF COURSE, LAST YEAR WE ALREADY REPORTED THAT PALANTIR WAS WORKING ON IMMIGRATION ENFORCEMENT FOR THE SECOND TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

THEY WERE DOING VARIOUS DATA ANALYTIC SERVICES AND PRODUCTS AND THAT SORT OF THING, BUT THIS WAS REALLY THE FIRST LINK THAT WE GOT BETWEEN, OH, THEY'RE MAKING THIS SPECIFIC TOOL AND I. C. E. IS USING IT.

IT WAS FINALLY BRIDGING THAT DIVIDE BETWEEN PALANTIR DOING SOME FRANKLY OBSCURE TECHNOLOGY WORK OVER HERE, AND WHAT IS ACTUALLY HAPPENING ON AMERICAN STREETS.

>> SO WHAT IS ELITE?

WHAT DOES THE ACRONYM STAND FOR?

>> IT STANDS FOR ENHANCED LEADS IDENTIFICATION AND TARGETING FOR ENFORCEMENT.

THAT WAS A VERY UNIQUE ACRONYM.

>> YOU MENTIONED THAT THERE'S A CONFIDENCE SCORE.

SO HOW'S THAT CALCULATED?

>> ACCORDING TO THE USER GUIDE, THERE ARE TWO MAIN METRICS THAT DICTATE OR INFLUENCE THAT CONFIDENCE SCORE.

THE FIRST IS THE SOURCE OF THAT DATA.

SO THE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH OR WHEREVER IT MAY COME FROM, AND THE SECOND ONE IS THE RECENCY, AS WHEN IS THE LAST TIME THAT ADDRESS WAS UPDATED?

AND THAT'S ESPECIALLY IMPORTANT FOR I. C. E. BECAUSE WHEN IT'S TRYING TO FIND PEOPLE TO DETAIN AND DEPORT AND THOSE COULD BE, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WITH NO CRIMINAL CONVICTION OR IT COULD BE WHAT THEY DESCRIBE AS, YOU KNOW, THE MOST WANTED OR THE WORST OF THE WORST OR WHATEVER IT MAY BE.

THE DHS -- IT MAY BE HOWEVER DHS IS DESCRIBING THAT.

THOSE ADDRESSES HAVE REALLY BEEN IMPORTANT FOR I. C. E. BECAUSE THEY CAN FINALLY TRY TO TRACK DOWN WHERE THAT SPECIFIC PERSON MAY BE, AND THAT'S WHY THEY HAVE A CONFIDENCE SCORE.

THEY WANT TO BE QUITE EFFICIENT IN WHAT THEY'RE DOING.

THEY DON'T WANT TO BE SENDING PERSONNEL AROUND RANDOMLY.

THEY DO WANT TO FIND A SPECIFIC LOCATION TO GO AND TARGET, AND THAT IS WHAT THIS TOOL AT LEAST HOPES TO DO.

>> DO YOU KNOW IF THIS TOOL HAS BEEN AND IS BEING USED IN THE RAIDS THAT WE'RE SEEING AROUND THE COUNTRY?

>> SO IN DECEMBER, I. C. E. OFFICIALS AND CUSTOMS AND BORDER PROTECTION OFFICIALS GAVE REALLY ILLUMINATING TESTIMONY IN THE CASE GOING ON THERE.

IT WAS DISCUSSING AN IMMIGRATION RAID THAT HAPPENED IN OCTOBER.

THEY TARGETED A WOMAN WHO HAS THE INITIALS JMA IN THE TRANSCRIPTS AND ABOUT 40 PEOPLE AS WELL, AND IN THAT TESTIMONY, AN I. C. E. OFFICIAL EXPLICITLY SAID THAT THEY USED SOMETHING CALLED ELITE, DESCRIBING HOW IT'S USED TO BUILD UP TARGET LISTS, DESCRIBING HOW THEY WENT TO NEIGHBORHOODS THAT THEY CALLED TARGET-RICH BECAUSE THERE WERE LOTS OF PEOPLE THEY COULD POTENTIALLY DETAIN, AND THAT WAS ONE OF THE KEY PIECES THAT ALLOWED ME TO DO THIS INVESTIGATION BECAUSE THIS IS HEARING FROM I. C. E. OFFICIALS THEMSELVES ABOUT HOW THEY'RE USING THIS TOOL, WHAT THEY'RE USING IT FOR BECAUSE WHEN I APPROACHED DHS FOR COMMENT ON THIS, THEY WEREN'T GOING TO READILY CONFIRM THOSE DETAILS THEMSELVES.

THAT TESTIMONY HAS BEEN REALLY, REALLY ILLUMINATING NOT JUST FOR THIS STORY ABOUT PALANTIR, BUT VARIOUS OTHER ONES ABOUT SURVEILLANCE TECH THAT I. C. E. IS USING IN THE FIELD.

>> IS ANYTHING THAT PALANTIR IS DOING TODAY ILLEGAL?

>> AS FAR AS I KNOW, NOTHING THAT PALANTIR IS DOING IS ILLEGAL.

THIS DATA SHARING BETWEEN AGENCIES IS THE FRUIT OF AN EXECUTIVE ORDER FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP.

SO IT IS LEGALLY AUTHORIZED IN THAT SENSE.

IT'S CRUCIAL TO REMEMBER THAT PALANTIR DOESN'T GO OUT AND GATHER DATA.

THEY'RE NOT PERFORMING FACIAL RECOGNITION.

THEY'RE NOT TRACKING PHONES.

ALL PALANTIR DOES IS IT SEEMS QUITE WELL, BRING ALL OF THIS DATA TOGETHER SO THE CUSTOMER, IN THIS CASE I. C. E. , CAN UNDERSTAND IT.

>> JUST AS A NOTE, WE HAVE REACHED OUT TO BOTH I. C. E. THROUGH THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY AND TO PALANTIR ABOUT YOUR REPORTING.

WE HAVEN'T RECEIVED ANY COMMENTS, AND YOU MENTIONED IN YOUR REPORTING THAT YOU'VE REACHED OUT MULTIPLE TIMES TO PALANTIR, TO I. C. E. , AND THEY HAVE NOT GOTTEN BACK TO YOU.

CORRECT?

>> YEAH.

I HAVE HEARD --I HAVE HEARD FROM THE COMPANY ONCE OR TWICE OVER MY SEVERAL MONTHS OF REPORTING, AND USUALLY THEY SAY, THEY REGRET THE LEAKS HAVE HAPPENED RATHER THAN COMMENTING ON THE SUBSTANCE OF THE LEAKS THEMSELVES.

I WOULD SAY IT'S MUCH MORE INTERESTING TO LOOK AT WHAT THEY SAY INTERNALLY, OF COURSE, AND PALANTIR JUSTIFIES ITS WORK WITH I. C. E. BY SAYING IT BELIEVES IT CAN MAKE I. C. E.

'S WORK MORE EFFICIENT, MORE TRANSPARENT, MORE ACCOUNTABLE.

ULTIMATELY, I. C. E. IS THE ONE DECIDING HOW TO USE THIS TECHNOLOGY IF THEY USE IT AT ALL.

I. C. E. IS THE ONE THAT DECIDES WE'RE GOING DETAIN THIS PERSON OR TRACK DOWN PEOPLE IN THIS NEIGHBORHOOD.

>> "WIRED" RECENTLY HAD A REPORT ABOUT INTERNAL COMMUNICATIONS AT PALANTIR WHERE THERE WERE SEVERAL EMPLOYEES THAT WERE VERY CONCERNED ABOUT HOW THE COMPANY'S PRODUCTS ARE BEING USED IN I. C. E. ENFORCEMENT AND QUOTED FROM THE "WIRED" STORY NOW, THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT AN INTERNAL WIKI, A REFERENCE BASE INSIDE PALANTIR THAT EMPLOYEES ALL HAVE ACCESS TO IT SAYS --"THE WIKI ACKNOWLEDGES INCREASING REPORTING AROUND U. S. CITIZENS BEING SWEPT UP IN ENFORCEMENT AND HELD WITH RACIAL PROFILING ALLEGEDLY APPLIED AS PRETENSE FOR THE DETENTION OF SOME U. S. CITIZENS BUT ARGUES THAT PALANTIR'S CUSTOMERS AT I. C. E. REMAIN COMMITTED TO AVOIDING UNLAWFUL, UNNECESSARY TARGETING HOWEVER AND WHEREVER POSSIBLE. "

WE SHOULD ALSO NOTE THAT "WIRED" TRIED TO REACH OUT FOR COMMENT AND DID NOT RECEIVE ONE.

IT'S INTERESTING THAT THERE IS KIND OF THIS INTERNAL TENSION THAT WAS FELT FROM EMPLOYEES.

>> WE'VE SEEN THIS.

PALANTIR WAS DOING WORK WITH I. C. E. IT WAS SPECIFICALLY WORKING ON THE SYSTEM CALLED ICM FOR HOMELAND SECURITY INVESTIGATIONS, YOU KNOW, THAT'S THE PART OF I. C. E. WHICH FOCUSES ON CYBERCRIME OR CHILD ABUSE OR MONEY LAUNDERING, THAT SORT OF THING.

SOME EMPLOYEES HAD AN ISSUE THEN.

THIS TIME, THE OUTRAGE DOES SEEM TO BE MUCH MORE VISCERAL I WOULD SAY, INDICATING BY THE LEAKS I HAVE RECEIVED AND "WIRED" HAS RECEIVED AS WELL, BUT EMPLOYEES IN THAT COMPANY CAN'T NECESSARILY CHANGE THE POLICY DIRECTIVES OF PALANTIR AS A WHOLE, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU HAVE LEADERSHIP SUCH AS THE CEO SAYING THAT IT IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF TECH COMPANIES TO HELP DEFEND THE WEST, DEFEND DEMOCRACY.

NOW OF COURSE, MYSELF AND I THINK OTHER PEOPLE WHO LOOK INTO PALANTIR AS WELL, FIND THAT QUITE A STRANGE THING TO MARRY WITH THE IDEA THAT THEY SAY THEY'RE WISHING TO DEFEND AMERICAN WESTERN VALUES WHILE ALSO PROVIDING THE TECHNOLOGICAL INFRASTRUCTURE FOR THE AGENCY THAT NOW SAYS IT DOESN'T NEED A WARRANT TO ENTER INTO BUILDINGS.

I SINCERELY TRY TO SQUARE THAT CIRCLE AND I WOULD LOVE IF PALANTIR RESPONDED TO MY REQUEST FOR COMMENTS, TO ELABORATE ON THAT AS WELL.

>> YOU'VE ALSO REPORTED ABOUT FACIAL RECOGNITION TECHNOLOGY AND SO MANY PEOPLE HAVE SEEN THESE VIRAL VIDEOS WHERE THE I. C. E. AGENT REALLY JUST STICKS HIS OR HER PHONE UP DIRECTLY TO THE PERSON AND KIND OF TAKES A SNAPSHOT, AND THAT PHONE THAT THEY HAVE IN THEIR HAND IS COMPARING THE IMAGE TO SOME MUCH, MUCH LARGER DATABASE.

IS THAT EFFECTIVE?

WHERE DID ALL THOSE PICTURES COME FROM?

>> SO WE FIRST REVEALED THE EXISTENCE OF THIS APP CALLED "MOBILE FORTIFY" LAST JUNE THANKS TO LEAKED EMAILS FROM INSIDE I. C. E. I THEN STEADILY GOT MORE INFORMATION OVER THE COMING MONTHS, AND ESSENTIALLY IT USES THE SYSTEM -- THE CUSTOMS AND BORDER PROTECTION HAS IT AT THE BORDER TO VERIFY WHO IS ENTERING THE COUNTRY.

IT HAS TURNED THAT INWARDS ONTO AMERICAN STREETS WHERE AS YOU SAY, AN I. C. E. OFFICIAL OR ANOTHER DHS OFFICIAL CAN USE THEIR PHONE, POINT IT AT SOMEONE'S FACE, AND INSTANTLY QUERY A DATABASE OF SOMETHING LIKE 200 MILLION IMAGES THAT DHS HAS.

COMPARES IT TO THOSE, AND BRINGS UP A FACE IDENTIFYING THE PERSON, THEIR NAME, DATE OF BIRTH, WHETHER THEY'VE BEEN GIVEN THE FINAL ORDER OF DEPORTATION.

AND I. C. E. OFFICIALS ARE USING THIS TOOL IN ATTEMPTS TO VERIFY PEOPLE'S CITIZENSHIP.

THAT SAID, RECENTLY WE'VE REPORTED THAT THE APP MAY NOT ALWAYS BE ACCURATE.

IN THAT EARLIER CASE I MENTIONED OF MJMA, THE WOMAN IN OREGON AND WHO OFFICIALS TESTIFIED ABOUT, WHEN A CUSTOMS AND BORDER PROTECTION OFFICIAL SCANNED HER FACE, IT RETURNED TWO DIFFERENT NAMES.

WHEN YOU FIRST LEARN ABOUT FACIAL RECOGNITION, AS A RESEARCHER OR A JOURNALIST, YOU LEARN IT CAN BE VERY INACCURATE, ESPECIALLY AGAINST PEOPLE OF COLOR.

WE'VE SEEN TIME AND TIME AGAIN, BLACK PEOPLE ESPECIALLY HAVE BEEN MISIDENTIFIED BY FACIAL RECOGNITION AND THEN THEY FACE CHARGES OR THEY HAVE BEEN DETAINED.

THEY HAVE BEEN ARRESTED.

THEY HAVE BEEN PUT IN JAIL FOR SOME TIME.

THAT TECHNOLOGY IS NOW BEING USED TO DETERMINE WHETHER SOMEBODY SHOULD BE DEPORTED OR NOT, AND I. C. E. BELIEVES THAT A RESULT FROM THAT APP IS DEFINITIVE PROOF OF SOMEONE'S STATUS AND IT OVERRIDES A BIRTH CERTIFICATE.

>> NOW THERE'S A GROUP OF DEMOCRATIC LAWMAKERS THAT ARE TRYING TO REIN IN THE USE OF MOBILE FORTIFY.

REPRESENTATIVE BENNIE THOMPSON WHO AUTHORED THIS LEGISLATION, HE'S THE HOMELAND SECURITY RANKING MEMBER.

HE SAID, "I. C. E.

'S USE OF MOBILE FORTIFY TO DETERMINE A PERSON'S LEGAL STATUS IS AN OUTRAGEOUS AFFRONT TO THE CIVIL RIGHTS AND CIVIL LIBERTIES OF U. S. CITIZENS AND IMMIGRANTS ALUKE.

DHS SHOULD NOT BE CONDUCTING SURVEILLANCE BY EXPERIMENTING WITH AMERICANS' FACES AND FINGERPRINTS IN THE FIELD, ESPECIALLY WITH UNPROVEN AND BIASED TECHNOLOGY. "

WHAT'S THEIR LEGISLATION PROPOSING?

>> SO THE AIM OF THE LEGISLATION IS NOT TO ELIMINATE THIS APP.

IT'S MORE TO REIN IT IN, AND IT PLANS TO DO THAT IN SEVERAL DIFFERENT WAYS.

THE FIRST ONE WOULD BE THAT DHS CANNOT USE THIS OUT ON AMERICAN STREETS.

IT WOULD BE RESTRICTED TO PORTS OF ENTRY INTO THE COUNTRY.

ANOTHER IS THAT DHS WOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO ROLL OUT A VERSION OF THE APP TO LOCAL LAW ENFORCEMENT WHICH IS WHAT WE'VE REPORTED THEY WERE PLANNING TO DO, WHICH WOULD HAVE MEANT THAT ORGANIZATIONS WHO ARE PART OF THE 287G PROGRAM, BASICALLY LOCAL LAW ENFORCEMENT WORKING WITH I. C. E. OR IMMIGRATION ENFORCEMENT IN SOME CAPACITY, THEY WOULD BE ALLOWED TO USE THE APP.

THIS LEGISLATION WOULD AIM TO TACKLE THAT AS WELL.

SO IT WOULDN'T ELIMINATE IT OUTRIGHT, BUT IT WOULD TRY TO REIN IT IN SOMEWHAT.

>> IN ANOTHER STORY, YOU REPORTED THROUGH DOCUMENTS THAT YOU OBTAINED THROUGH A LAWSUIT OF FREEDOM OF INFORMATION REQUEST.

YOU FOUND THAT THERE WAS A DATA SHARING AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE CENTERS FOR MEDICARE AND MEDICAID SERVICES AND THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY.

IN THAT AGREEMENT I. C. E. WAS GIVEN THE PERSONAL DATA OF NEARLY 80 MILLION MEDICAID PATIENTS.

WHAT DID YOU DISCOVER IN THE FULL TEXT OF THIS?

>> YEAH.

SO THAT AGREEMENT REALLY SHOWED THE BREADTH AND THE DEPTH OF THE DATA ON MEDICAID PATIENTS THAT WAS BEING SHARED WITH I. C. E. NAME, ADDRESS, OTHER SENSITIVE PERSONAL INFORMATION, AND I THINK IT JUST GOES TO SHOW THAT I. C. E. , AS AN AGENCY, IS TURNING TO VERY NOVEL WAYS TO GET INFORMATION THAT IT IS --THEY BELIEVE IS USEFUL TO ITS MISSION.

AS WELL AS THAT MEDICAID DATA, THERE WAS OF COURSE, THE DATA SHARING BETWEEN THE IRS AND I. C. E. NOW WHICH WAS UNPRECEDENTED.

OF COURSE, THE IDEA BEING THAT IRS WON'T SHARE DATA WITH I. C. E. SO UNDOCUMENTED PEOPLE WILL BE ENCOURAGED TO STILL PAY THEIR TAXES.

THAT IS NOW OUT OF THE WINDOW.

YOU HAVE I. C. E. ACCESSING A MEDICAL INSURANCE CLAIM DATABASE CALLED ISO CLAIM SEARCH WHICH TO MY UNDERSTANDING IS NEARLY ALL-ENCOMPASSING OF SOMETHING OF MORE LIKE 90% OF ALL MEDICAL INSURANCE CLAIMS.

THAT ALSO INCLUDES PEOPLE'S ADDRESSES AND AGAIN, THE IDEA IS TO BRING ADDRESSES FROM ALL OF THESE VERY UNUSUAL DATA SOURCES SO I. C. E. CAN FIND WHO IT WISHES TO DEPORT AND DETAIN.

THAT IS VERY EXPLICIT IN THESE DATA SHARING AGREEMENTS.

>> SO, YOU KNOW, LOOK.

DIFFERENT BASES, DIFFERENT INFORMATION SITTING IN DISPARATE PLACES, THAT WAS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT LED TO THE GREATEST TERROR ATTACK IN THE UNITED STATES, RIGHT?

AFTER 9/11, THIS WAS ONE OF THE KEY GOALS, IS, HEY.

IF YOU HAVE INFORMATION OVER HERE AND IT'S NOT CONNECTED AND TALKING TO THIS INFORMATION OVER HERE, WE COULD HAVE PREVENTED THIS NEXT ATTACK, AND THAT'S WHY WE'RE COMBINING ALL OF THESE DATA SETS.

WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT THINKING OR AT LEAST HOW THESE TECHNOLOGIES ARE BEING USED TODAY?

>> I THINK THAT'S A TOTALLY FAIR POINT, AND I WOULD SAY THAT THE KEY IDEA IS CONTEXT AND CONSENT AS WELL OF COURSE.

I THINK WHEN SOMEBODY GOES TO PAY THEIR TAXES AND THEY PROVIDE AN ADDRESS TO THE IRS, THEY DON'T BELIEVE OR THEY WOULDN'T HAVE BELIEVED BEFORE, THAT THAT COULD END UP BEING USED FOR IMMIGRATION ENFORCEMENT.

I DON'T THINK MANY PEOPLE WOULD BELIEVE THAT WHEN THEY GO TO TRY TO SEEK MEDICAL HELP EITHER THROUGH MEDICAID OR SOME OTHER MECHANISM OF THE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH, THEY WOULDN'T HAVE ASSUMED THAT THAT DATA COULD THEN BE USED FOR IMMIGRATION ENFORCEMENT AS WELL, AND THIS DATA SHARING BETWEEN AGENCIES CAN BE BENEFICIAL FOR SOME THINGS.

OF COURSE, IT IS USEFUL IF MEMBERS OF THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY ARE TALKING TO ONE ANOTHER ABOUT CERTAIN, YOU KNOW, VERY HIGH- PROFILE, DANGEROUS TERRORIST THREATS FOR INSTANCE, THAT'S NOT WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IMMIGRATION ENFORCEMENT AS PART OF A MASS DEPORTATION CAMPAIGN, WHICH IS UNFORTUNATELY ALSO TARGETING U. S. CITIZENS AND THEY'RE BEING CALLED OUT OF THEIR HOUSES AS WELL, AND PEOPLE OF COURSE, BEING HURT AND DRAGGED VERY INDISCRIMINATELY.

THE CONTEXT HERE IS VERY, VERY DIFFERENT TO, SAY, DATA SHARING IN THE WAR ON TERROR.

>> HOW MUCH OF THESE INSTANCES WHERE U. S. CITIZENS ARE HAVING THEIR DOORS KNOCKED ON SO TO SPEAK, HOW MUCH OF THAT IS A FAILURE OF THE TECHNOLOGY TOOLS VERSUS THE USERS THAT ARE ACTUALLY PUTTING IT TO USE, AND NOT READING THE INFORMATION CORRECTLY AND NOT LOOKING AT THE RIGHT CONFIDENCE SCORES?

OR IS THE TA JUST BAD?

>> THAT'S A VERY, VERY INTERESTING QUESTION, AND I THINK IT'S A COMBINATION OF BOTH OF THOSE AND ALSO JUST A GENERAL STRATEGY --ALMOST A LEGAL STRATEGY FROM I. C. E. AS WELL.

SO IN ONE CASE RECENTLY WHERE A U. S. CITIZEN WAS PULLED OUT OF HIS HOME, ACCORDING TO PUBLIC REPORTING THAT I WAS READING, I. C. E. BELIEVED SOMEBODY ELSE LIVED AT THAT ADDRESS AND THEY POTENTIALLY MOVED ON AT SOME POINT.

THAT WOULD BE A DATA ISSUE.

THE DATA WAS NOT CORRECT ABOUT WHO WAS AT THIS RESIDENCE.

THAT SAID, I. C. E. ALSO BELIEVES IT CAN NOW NTER PROPERTIES WITHOUT A SEARCH WARRANT.

IT BELIEVES DOES NOT VIOLATE THE FOURTH AMENDMENT ACCORDING TO A MEMO "THE ASSOCIATED PRESS" OBTAINED.

EVEN IF IT'S WRONG, THE AGENCY ALSO BELIEVES IT CAN ENTER PROPERTIES AS WELL AND I THINK IT'S VERY, VERY HARD TO DE-COUPLE THOSE.

I DON'T THINK IT'S ONE OR THE OTHER.

IT WOULD BE VERY EASY TO SIMPLY BLAME THE DATA, BUT THE REALITY IS THAT SOMEONE IS ON THE GROUND ACTING ON THAT INFORMATION AS WELL, AND THEY'RE MAKING A DECISION EITHER INDIVIDUALLY OR AS AN AGENCY TO DO WHATEVER IT IS THEY'RE GOING OUT AND DOING.

>> REPORTER AND CO-FOUNDER OF 404 MEDIA, JOSEPH COX.

THANKS SO MUCH FOR ALL YOUR REPORTING.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

> >> AND FINALLY FOR US, IT'S A TRAGEDY THAT TRANSFORMED SPACE FLIGHT HISTORY.

40 YEARS AGO TODAY, THE NASA CHALLENGER SPACE SHUTTLE EXPLODED MIDAIR 73 SECONDS AFTER LIFTOFF FROM FLORIDA KILLING ALL SEVEN MEMBERS ON BOARD.

THE NATION SAW THE HARROWING MOMENT LIVE ON TELEVISION WHILE THOUSANDS OF SPECTATORS ON THE GROUND WERE LEFT SHOCKED.

THE HIGH-PROFILE LAUNCH DREW SPECIAL ATTENTION AS IT WAS THE FIRST TIME A TEACHER, CHRISTA McAULIFFE, WOULD BE SENT TO SPACE.

IT WOULD LEAD TO A MASSIVE OVERHAUL, MEANING 87 MISSIONS WOULD GO ON WITHOUT A HITCH UNTIL 2003.

BIANNA GOLODRYGA SAT DOWN WITH JOURNALIST ADAM HIGGINBOTHAM AND ASKED HIM WHY FOUR DECADES ON THE CHALLENGER DISASTER REMAINS MEMORABLE FOR SO MANY PEOPLE.

>> BY 1986, YOU KNOW, HAVING SENT MEN TO THE MOON, HAVING RESCUED PEOPLE IN APOLLO 13, HAVING SENT UP SKY LAB, THEY'D SEEMED TO BE ABLE TO DO ANYTHING THEY PUT THEIR MINDS TO.

SO THE IDEA THAT SEVEN ASTRONAUTS COULD DIE LIVE ON TELEVISION IN A SPACE SHUTTLE, YOU KNOW, THAT WAS ALSO CARRYING THE TEACHER IN SPACE, THE FIRST CITIZEN ASTRONAUT, SEEMED TOTALLY INCONCEIVABLE, AND SO I THINK THAT'S ONE MAIN REASON WHY IT'S LODGED IN THE MINDS OF AMERICANS IN A WAY THAT THE COLUMBIA ACCIDENT HASN'T BECAUSE IN 1986, NOTHING LIKE THAT HAD HAPPENED BEFORE.

>> AND YOU CAN WATCH THE FULL INTERVIEW ON THIS PROGRAM LATER THIS WEEK.

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