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>> Thank you very much for joining us for this edition of Donnybrook.

Hope you're staying warm and uh we'll be turning on the heat at least around this table in just a few moments.

But first, let's meet the panelists starting with the media veteran herself.

There she is, Wendy Wiese, one of our founders back in 1987, Bill McClellan from The Post.

And also from the Post and STLtoday.com, Joe Holleman and Alvin Reid from the St.

Louis American.

Well, Joe, we're going to start with you because you wrote about it today and you live in the city of St.

Louis.

snow.

We had a big snowstorm last weekend.

Last year we had one and there was a lot of nashing of teeth when city officials were accused of not properly shoveling and removing snow from uh the city roads.

And just in general, what's your impression of this year's effort by the new administration, Cara Spencer and her team?

I you know, I was asked uh uh by someone, how do you think of the city's snow response?

And I said to me, it seemed like at least they responded.

there was a response.

And I remember last year not only feeling like the city wasn't prepared for a snowstorm, but they didn't really seem to care that much that it was a problem, the mayor was out of town for three days of it.

And then we had the amazingly just absurd notion that the streets department supervisor apparently hadn't been out on the roads for 10 days and blamed the fact that she didn't know how the streets were was basically that her underlings lied to her.

She's no longer the streets department director.

And like Michael Bandic and Jane Burn illustrated many years ago in Chicago, when you don't get the snow plowed, you also don't stay mayor for long.

And I think while it wasn't the only reason, Tashara Jones paid the price for not responding.

And is it perfect?

Absolutely not.

And as you find out, there's all kinds of lists of complaints that will come in.

That's what we do.

>> I think Channel 4, Channel 5 had a story that some of the neighborhoods north of Delmar were not mowed, were not plowed.

>> Also, some south were not depends on where you ask it.

And there'll be intersections that weren't cleared properly enough.

But what I think city residents, the ones I talked to in the city, seemed like there was response for the first time ever living on a side street in the city, and I've been living in the city for 40 some years, 38.

Um, I saw a snow plow go down my side street.

Never saw that before.

So, they tried.

They showed up and they gave it a better shot than last year.

>> Yeah.

I mean, and plus they had a little bit of an advantage and I think it was a different sort of snow.

I mean, a year ago that ice and it was packed down, but no, I I think the mayor deserves a lot of credit for getting out there and like you put in your story, showing up, >> you know, that's a big part.

>> Well, I talked to Dave Price, who's one of the owners of Biggie's restaurant in South St.

Louis, and he said it wasn't perfect, but it was better than last year and in most previous years.

And he was closed Monday and Tuesday, but Wednesday night he was open, and he said he had a packed uh restaurant.

So that indicates that at least people had the impression that the the byways were passable, that you could get on them.

So that's kind of good.

>> I I think after so much as Joe said, after that snowstorm really essentially cost Mayor Jones the election after it happened.

Uh so Cara Spencer is you'd have to be awfully tonedeaf not to realize that.

And so any kind of improvement is going to look, you know, it's going to look like a a marked improvement.

Um, but I think where I think where Mayor Jones where she made the biggest mistake or where her administration made the biggest mistake was when they she gave herself a B minus.

That was that was sort of like I think the end in the minds of a lot of folks.

>> Well, the city this year decided to give away free salt.

But the problem was that contractors uh were scooping it all up and residents for whom the salt was really intended uh didn't get it.

And I guess they'll have to go to plan B or something next year and limit everyone to like one small barrel or whatever the case is.

>> Well, and the the stories of the folks who kept coming back, you know, hoping for our better angels to take over, they just didn't take over.

>> The honor system didn't work too well.

Oh, I mean, if there was free salt there and I needed some, I would have gone and you you were entitled to it, >> right?

Right.

>> But you weren't supposed to load your truck up.

>> Well, that's true.

But, you know, things go arrive.

Privatization has its good sides and has its bad sides.

>> And you would think I bet in the future they'll have somebody present to sort of monitor the situation a little more closely than sort of on the honor system.

>> Well, the honor system is only so honorable.

>> But were you [laughter] saying you were going to come in from Kirkwood to grab city?

Now, now wait, wait.

I wasn't saying that.

I was saying if I was a city resident.

I was a city res.

Right.

Right.

Wendy, I want to ask you about shoveling snow though at the Algoa Correctional Center.

Uh the Missouri Independent has a story this week and that is uh that some inmates at the Algoa Correctional Center, which is minimum security, were asked to uh shovel snow.

And this was in the middle of the night when the temperatures are around zero and maybe even worse when you include the windchill.

And uh one guy, a guy by the name of uh Spain Batty who is serving time said, "No, I'm a student.

Uh I'm not required to do labor here."

Don't you think inmates should be required to shovel the snow at a facility like that?

>> I do.

And I know I'm going to trigger a lot of people, but I'm a boomer and so that's what that's what we do.

If you don't want to shovel snow in the middle of the night and if you want to be a student, then don't go to jail.

However, um I was bothered.

I think a lot of people were bothered by the fact that these inmates were out there for longer than they should have been in extremely dangerous wind chills.

When you listen to uh Steve, who's the meteorologist for Templeton, he did a fantastic job.

But he basically said, as all the meteorologists did, stay inside.

You shouldn't even there shouldn't be you shouldn't even be outdoors.

It was so dangerously cold.

So when you when you hear that and then you see that they're wearing gardening gloves, a cotton gardening gloves.

>> Well, that's what they claim.

That's what they claim.

I don't know.

>> Why would they lie?

I don't know.

Why would they lie?

They're inmates.

>> Wait, now wait, hold on, Charlie.

Now, wait.

Now, wait.

I'm not saying that everybody is honorable that's in jail.

I But that was a bit much.

But anyway, [laughter] um if you like if you're paid whatever wage you can make when you're in jail and you volunteer to do it.

Now granted, you shouldn't be out there not equipped for it.

Now, you shouldn't be forced to do it, but if you like, hey, you get extra privileges or you get this, you know, whatever.

U some more gym time if you shovel snow.

I don't have a No, if the gear is good, if you've got good gear, I don't say that.

I was going to say you don't want them out there w without a heavy heavy jacket and and good mittens.

We don't want this to be like a goolog.

>> Exactly.

>> But but of course the inmates should be be required.

>> No, I'm not.

No, you should not be required.

Why not?

No, you you can't make people do things like that when they're in jail.

I mean, yes, you got responsibilities that are within the jail.

The Channel 5 and Channel 4 reporters are out there in the snow.

Why can't it shovel snow?

>> You can't You can't >> As long as you've heard of skiing, right?

I mean, that's what people do in this weather.

They go outdoors, embrace it.

If you have the gear, >> they have to buy the gear.

And that seems very odd.

>> Yeah.

But you can't make people shovel snow.

Okay.

That's beyond the what responsibilities of being like in >> Well, put it like this, Alvin.

you you know they they need those walks shoveled for security purposes so that if there's a problem in this building get to it and so who else should do it if you >> you have to you have to pay for that you can give them a a wage but you I think you got to be able to make them >> No you can't make >> okay it's got to be volunt I think one part two is is where the guy says no no I'm a student well no actually you're a prisoner >> actually you're an inmate >> you're an inmate so the idea that you're going checking the activities that you'd like to engage in [laughter] is a little stretch for me.

Yeah.

>> All that said, I agree completely, but I agree that you have to have the basic equipment to send any human being out in >> which case and they can be out in the cold picking up litter or removing graffiti if it's volunteer and they're paid and uh I think it would be the best thing for them.

>> The exercise is good for them.

I I get that.

But I'm just saying you can't like if I'm sitting there minding my business, there's 12 feet of snow out there.

Like you have to stop.

>> I make my wife get out there and shovel snow.

She's a president.

[laughter] >> If the state if the state >> I tell her to put it back into it.

>> Please let me finish this.

The state has to provide the warm weather gear.

They cannot be responsible for buying it themselves in the prison.

I agree.

But that's according to the story.

That's what they had.

>> And and with the the gear today, I'm not sure they're going to get REI gear or Alpine Shop.

But that gear is good and it will keep you warm.

And there's no excuse that for somebody to be working for three hours when it's 10 degrees below zero not to have it.

>> Uh Albert, I want to go to you on what Webster Groves officials didn't do.

They didn't put a ballot measure on the April 7th election ballot, which would have increased the sales taxes in that city for fire protection and economic development.

You think this is a signal that Missurrians are not ready to raise their sales taxes at the very time that the governor is talking about doing that?

Absolutely.

Because if you look at where the the large number of people live in the state, they're paying the highest amount of sales tax.

Like we were talking about, you know, Kirkwood's like already at 10.

Webster, I'm sure, is breathing on that.

if you're going to vote to raise your own sales tax with the knowledge that the other the state sales tax is going to go up could possibly go up as well.

You're voting against that.

So I think that yes, they said like nope, we got to do it some other way other than a sales tax.

And I think Jefferson City should take heed of the fact that that that dog won't hunt, not this go around.

>> I agree for the most part in that it's going to be a challenge to convince people to raise their state sales tax.

I do think there were issues in Webster and we had covered them in our paper complaints about the spending that had already been going on.

So I think uh at least some if not the majority of the reaction of uh the council in Webster was hey look we're kind of getting a lot of grief about how much money we're spending now we're going to ask for more money to pay for the stuff people are complaining about us spending.

So I think there was also some other problems unique to Webster that was the reason it's now >> you know in in Missouri there's a history of voting against your self-interest.

I mean people do that all the time.

But if the normal rank and file working people vote to increase their sales tax in instead of paying income tax.

It will be just a perfect example of voting against your own self-interest.

I think >> I I would agree.

And Joe, like I said, I think the majority was probably anti-sales taxes as opposed to anti- city council.

But case in point, ours is already pretty high already.

But right now, like in Kirkwood, if you brought any kind of sales tax, it would fail.

I don't care if it was to we got we have coyotes running loose.

We need a sales tax then.

Let coyotes run loose.

The difference between Webster and the state though is that the state is saying, "Okay, we're going to raise your sales tax, but we're going to offset it by a decrease in your income tax."

And so, Bill and Alvin, for some people, that's going to make sense.

>> No, that that some voters it'll make sense >> that yeah, if you're making a whole lot of money, but for the average person going to like buy some Twinkies, no, I don't want to pay 11% sales tax for my Twinkies for whatever, right?

That's a dime.

It's just a that's not going to move the needle.

>> Okay.

How about a car?

Well, let me say this.

Some states are doing it.

I looked up and New Hampshire has no sales tax and no income tax.

>> It's New Hampshire.

>> Yeah.

Right.

And they have the best they have among the best schools in the nation.

High property tax.

>> It's It's New Hampshire.

>> And they have the best schools among the best schools in the nation.

>> It has to be one of the top travel destinations in the world.

The state of New Hampshire.

>> Oh, you're kidding yourself.

>> I'm not either.

How many times have you been there?

>> I listen, it's on the bucket list pretty much.

>> Yeah, I've never been there.

>> It is up there with Hawaii.

Standard.

>> Everybody on spring break goes to New Hampshire.

>> It's a very popularation and fall foliage.

>> I I don't know how the governor will make up 65% of the state by increasing the sales tax.

But we could start by increasing the liquor tax, >> the gambling tax, the cigarette tax, and put up polls or rather sorry tolls like smart states.

Why are we not I words of Ray Hartman taxing all those motorists who drive se go from the east to the west on 70 >> because we'd rather just raise income tax and sales tax.

I mean, I'm for anything that makes us look at it differently.

So, I love when any sales in uh tax increase, sales, property, income gets voted down.

>> How about reducing spending?

That never seems to be the issue.

That never seems to be, okay, let's look at where we can cut.

It's like, no, no.

How are we going to pay for all this stuff?

What are we going to raise?

How about spending limits?

>> Well, the problem with spending limits, Joe, is you have to cut something specific.

And as soon as you say we're gonna cut this, there's a whole bunch of people go, you can't do that.

>> Oh, absolutely.

I blame both the Democrats and the Republicans for that.

AB, I agree with you 104%, Bill.

Nobody wants to cut their stuff.

So, everybody talks about getting spending under control, but they don't do it.

That's a problem with legislators across the country, across the aisle.

And if they would change their thinking completely instead of saying my projects are good, your projects are bad.

>> It will never stop.

I'm afraid that's human nature.

That's the very nature of you know there there are states in the United States of America, red states and blue states that have balanced budget and somehow or the other they figure it out.

I think California does not like huge deficit.

They're not staring down for all the troubles.

I think you know like and so it can be done.

Missouri is balanced.

>> Well, we we're on a $250 million surplus.

Yeah, we're on the express that broke last week, right?

Bill, >> Democrats wanting to spend it and Governor Kehoe wanting to put it in the rainy day fund.

>> Let me ask you about a new development and that is the US attorney for the Eastern District of Missouri, Tom Albus, appointed by President Trump, has been assigned by Pam Bondi, she's the attorney general, correct?

Yes.

to uh go to southern uh [snorts] Georgia to investigate and handle some of the administrative duties of uh I guess what they're they're looking into improprieties in the 2020 presidential election.

Is that accurate?

>> Yes.

>> Okay.

So, um do you think this is a good role for our US attorney?

>> No.

and and I don't think it's a good look a at all that you know the the 2020 election has been examined and investigated and the pres President Trump is just uh obsessed with it and the idea that when well we're going to have another look at it uh who should we get Tom will do it I don't think that looks good for for us I don't think it looks good for Tom Albus and I think this is a direct direct result of the big break he gave the two brothers who do the Lux apartment buildings when Hal Goldsmith was ready to take him to trial and then oh then Pam Bondi's brother became their attorney and Tom Alba said like it was night court oh well you're Pam's brother's your lawyer go over here we're not charging you with anything how about a fine and I think that that gave the administration the idea that Tom Albus is a good guy and will come through for them.

And so, you know, you can say, well, he had to do it, but I don't think it makes him look good at all that they decide he's the guy.

>> Yeah.

I don't think he's worried about the optics to the Donny Brook panel at at this moment.

He's Yeah.

It's sort of woe unto you if you do not pick up the phone when a king calls, you know.

So, he has to do it.

I mean, he's a soldier and he's got it.

Yeah.

Sorry.

Unless he's got a conscience and he's a good attorney and an officer of the court with some sort of decent reputation.

>> But that's assuming that you have already convinced that there was no fraud.

So what he's doing is immoral.

Secretary of State, the Republican Secretary that or is he supposed to adopt your conscience to make his decision on whether he goes or not?

But that's really not the point.

The point is is when your boss calls you, how many times did you do things in radio or wherever because the boss said, "I need you to do this."

>> I'll tell you, numerous times I said no.

Numerous times I said no.

>> How many times did you say yes?

>> Uh not often if I felt morally against it.

In fact, I don't think >> And what if he doesn't feel morally?

>> No.

Sometimes commercials we would be asked to read for products that were completely dubious if not fraudulent.

And I turned him down.

And I'm sure everyone on this panel would have done something.

But what if his conscience is not dictating him to turn it down?

>> Well, does he read does he understand that uh the conclusion of many committees, including Republicans, have determined that the 2020 election was not stolen, >> right?

I mean, I I think so, too.

I think that you have to be able to say to the boss, "Hey, I'm very busy here, and you needed somebody to go prosecute Jim Comey, and we sent somebody from St.

Louis, and that didn't work out.

I I I don't want to >> Mr.

Albus will have an apple in his mouth and he'll be like roasting.

Someone's got to stop the politization of this justice department.

Oh my good.

Now it needs to stop.

But where were you four years ago?

Well, I think that >> in this situation, okay, with all that's going on in the country right now, all right, this is just kind of silliness.

And I think Albus is probably thinking like, you know, this is silly, but I ain't gonna lose my job over something that's silly.

Okay.

Now, yeah, this this will all be over in a couple.

>> I I I'm sorry.

I think it's I think it's more sinister than I think that, you know, Albus helped him on the little thing with uh the Lux apartment brothers and that means that this is a bigger thing, and they figure they can count on Albus for this.

[laughter] And if a bigger thing comes along like cancelling elections or something bigger in the future, I think that they're going to think Tom Albus is their man.

>> I don't think Joe, you got to admit there was a time when people would come to St.

Louis, they'd say, "Hey, Jack Danforth, would you investigate Waco?"

And he would bring in Jim Martin and Tom Schwike and other top uh >> Ed Doubt, great attorneys.

and no one questioned what they were doing because they just were evenhanded guys who called balls and strikes and they weren't trying to throw the game.

And I just I I I wish we I I wish we had those guys back.

I I I I still but I I still can't agree with your point.

You say I have to admit what you're basically saying is is that Tom Albus if he had the conscience that I had, I wouldn't do this.

Well, we all are entitled to our own conscience.

So the the fact that you're assuming that he sees this as morally reprehensible but doing it anyway, I think is is testifying to a fact that's not in evidence.

We don't know what he thinks about it.

>> Well, I was going to say just just your opinion, >> but I agree with you though.

>> Do you do you think that he thinks there was some impropriety with Ed Georgia?

>> I think what you think words in his mouth.

>> He just got a job and his boss called him up and said go.

So he went I I just find it >> boss who's like a human wood chipper.

>> Isn't it Isn't it funny though that they're not contesting the 2024 election?

>> Well, I be >> well and 2020 has been investigated and investigated.

>> You're listen what comes out of the White House.

I think you're giving a little bit too much credence to >> Hey Joe, I want to ask you about what's going on in Pacific this week.

On Tuesday, the Pacific City Hall was again filled with protesters against a data center.

It's the second major protest in Franklin County in two weeks and your paper has covered it.

Uh and essentially these guys are coming in here uh asking for in this case a $16 billion data center and it would take the wastewater from the other side of the river and treat it which would be a good thing.

They'd pay Pacific for their wastewater.

Pacifica would get 12 to 17 million a year.

But the people all of a sudden have decided that data centers are persona nongrada.

What is going on?

>> You know, and maybe I'm just not tuned in to the uh threat of data centers or maybe I'm just too old to uh all the AI, but to me it just seems like a nimi.

So when I hear that a bunch of people in an area don't want some factory data center mall built near them, I just kind of assume it's a nimi.

that I don't have a problem with a data center.

I have a problem with a data center down the street from my house.

And so other than that, I >> Meramac in the Meramac Valley, too.

I mean, and in Franklin County, believe it or not, there are a lot of people who live in Franklin County who moved out there because they had three acre lots, 5 acre lots, 10acre lots.

They moved out there in the 80s and 90s because they wanted to be away from the city.

They wanted to be near all of the trails.

you're going to have a major environmental push because of where it is.

>> And I could be wrong, but I just don't think those people are the ones down there in city hall protesting.

I really don't.

I think in any election, you've got, you know, you've got I believe in this candidate or this issue and some other people.

And then you've got a percentage of people that are like, you know, that just vote with uh hey, that's what that's what I'm supposed to do.

That's the end thing to do right now.

And I think a certain percentage of that are people that like are just data center bad.

So, I'm going to go down here and protest >> the proximity to things that are valued, you know.

I'm sorry.

I I I believe that's why we're talking about the armory.

I believe that's why we're talking about North.

>> But I'm talking about Wait, I'm talking about the armory because there's better use for that property.

I don't know what's going on down there in Pacific, why it's a good idea or it's a bad idea.

I'm just saying that this overwhelming protest um I I just I don't I don't know.

Put it this way.

the loudest, most belligerent, get on your nerves.

People when they're talking about college athletics have never been on the campus or seen a game in person themselves.

Ask them like, "Why are you here protesting the data center?"

And they probably could tell you, "I don't know."

>> Oh, I don't know.

>> Well, well, one one thing about it is when the people who are pushing the data centers won't say who they're building them for.

>> I mean, that's just, you know, I got to me it's all science fiction.

And I'm like you, Joe.

The A1 AI my grand kids get me about that.

You know I I the the AI stuff I don't get it but if somebody's going to build a data center oh okay well who's who are you building this for well I can't tell you that that would make me scared.

Well, not not only that, but uh when you're building something, $16 billion, going to be a zillion trucks for the next three, four years.

Then there's the hum of the generators, not to mention the natural gas or the gas that might be coming out of them, as was the case in Tennessee.

>> The rise of electricity prices, >> the rise of electricity prices, the loss of water.

I mean, there's a lot of you're going to have AI so you can take our jobs.

>> You have a thousand Okay, so you have a thousand or 3,000 construction jobs for 30 permanent workers.

It just that that does not make sense to people.

Well, it's non-starter there because somebody owns the land that's works for the city.

>> He's a he's an he's a city council.

>> That's non-starter right there.

Shocked.

I'm shocked.

Well, I think that he he'll be happy gambling because of the meeting.

>> He'll be happy to resign when they throw the money as >> Oh, yeah.

When he get that 16 million or whatever, I'd resign.

>> Hey, let's go to the old mailbag and see what people had to say about last week's program, shall we?

Don't change the Mark Twain Hotel until we have somewhere to put the residents.

This is a single room occupancy hotel that houses people who cannot afford to pay a lot of rent.

That from Marian Miller of St.

Louis City.

We also heard from Francancy Brderick who wrote, "Space and number of volunteers are usually why food pantries make appointments.

Some are in church basement or small areas and can't just open up to whoever comes in.

You can write us scare of 9PBS 3655 Olive Street 63108.

Emails donnybrook9pbs.org social media donnybrookst.

Call the nline at 314512994 and listen to us on your favorite podcast source.

Don't forget to tune in to the 9PBS YouTube channel.

We have a program called Last Call.

It's a little shorter.

We get to some of the topics we couldn't get to in the first segment, including this week is the St.

Patrick's Parade in downtown St.

Lewis in peril?

If so, what should happen?

Among the topics that we'll tackle.

Thanks so much for joining us.

We'll see you next week at this time.

Donny Brook is made possible by the support of the Betsy and Thomas Patterson Foundation and the members of Nine PBS.

away.

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