>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON" IT THE HEAD OF MAYOR WU COVID INDIVIDUALRY COMMITTEE BUSINESSOLA ONLY OJIKUTU SCWIENS ME.

WITH THE PUSHBACK FROM CITY EMPLOYEES AN WHEN WILL IT END.

THEN LATER HOW DO YOU FIGHT THE MOST VICIOUS ANTIVAXXER PROPAGANDA?

WHEN IT COMES FROM A GUY WITH 11 MILLION LISTENERS ON SPOTIFY.

AND ANOTHER MAN FROM A FAMOUS FAMILY MAKING HOLOCAUST COMPARISONS.

WE'LL HEAR FROM THE C.E.O.

OF THE CENTER FOR COUNTERING DIGITAL HATE AND JOURNALISM, IMRAN AHMED AND JOURNAL IMPROVE CERTIFICATE JEFFREY BLEVINS.

>> AS OF TODAY CAMBRIDGE-BASED MODERNA'S COVID VACCINE JOINED PFIZERS IN HAVING OFFICIAL FULL FDA APPROVAL AFTER MORE THAN A YEAR OF EMERGENCY AUTHORIZATION.

NEW DATA OUT FROM THE CDC TODAY IS PROVING WHAT PUBLIC HEALTH OFFICIALS HAVE BEEN SHOUTING FROM THE ROOFTOPS FOR MONTHS, GETTING VACCINATED AND BOOSTED IS EXTREMELY EFFECTIVE AT PROTECT ITING AGAINST THE WORST CONSEQUENCES OF COVID.

PEOPLE IN THE U.S. WHO HAVE NOT GOTTEN A BOOSTER SHOT ARE SIX TIMES MORE LIKELY TO DIE FROM COVID THAN THOSE WHO HAVE AND AS FOR THOSE WHO HAVEN'T GOTTEN A SINGLE VACCINE DOSE THEY'RE MORE THAN 75 TIMES MORE LIKELY TO DIE FROM COVID THAN THOSE FULLY VAXXED AND BOOST ERRED.

THERE ARE FACTS THAT MAKE VACCINE MANDATES SEEM LIKE COMMON SENSE TO A LOT OF PEOPLE INCLUDING TO BOSTON MARY WU WHOSE CITY EMPLOYEE MANDATE IS BEING CHALLENGED IN COURT, LAST WEEK A JUDGE HALTED THE REQUIREMENT AFTER BOSS CONTINUE POLICE AND FIRE FIRE SUED.

AS FOR HER PROVE OF VACCINE REQUIREMENT FOR PUBLIC INDOOR SPACES THAT'S GETTING PUSHBACK TOO.

THE MASSACHUSETTS RESTAURANT ASSOCIATION SENT A LETTER, THIS IS ACCORDING TO THE BOSTON HERALD SAYING QUOTE SOME BOSTON RESTAURANTS ARE LOSING AS MUCH AS 15,000 DOLLARS A WEEK BECAUSE OF THE POLICY.

THAT ISSUE MAYOR WU ADDRESSED IN PART WHEN SHE SPOKE YESTERDAY.

>> THIS IS SUCH A TOUGH TIME FOR A SMALL BUSINESSES.

SO I REALLY WANT TO TEN COURAGE EARNING TO GO OUT THERE, SHOP LOCAL, WE'RE DOING EVERYTHING WE CAN ON OUR END TO KEEP THE WITH WORKFORCE SAFE, KEEP OUR CUSTOMERS AND THE PUBLIC SAFE.

WE'RE ALSO PUTTING OUT GRANTS THAT SHOULD OPEN UP IN THE NEXT WEEK OR SO.

SO THAT SMALL BUSINESSES THAT HAVE BEEN HIT HARD CAN APPLY FOR SOME RELIEF.

>> I'M JOINED NOW BY ONE OF THE PEOPLE HELPING MAYOR WU THROUGH IT ALL, THE DIRECTOR OF THE BOSTON PUBLIC HEALTH COMMISSION AND HEAD OF THE ADVISORY COMMITTEE DR. BISOLA OJIKUTU, VERY GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

>> HI, THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> Braude: IN THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS MAYOR WU AND THE HEAD OF THE RESTAURANT ASSOCIATION JOINED US ON OUR LOO SHOW.

I WANT TO PLAY FOR YOU FIRST WHAT MAYOR WU SAID THREE OR FOUR DAYS AFTER THE MANDATE WENT INTO EFFECT FOR RESTAURANTS, GYMS ET CETERA.

AND ABOUT A WEEK LATER WHAT BOB LUZ HEAD OF THE RESTAURANT ASSOCIATION HAD TO SAY.

HERE THEY ARE.

>> IT'S BEEN VERY, VERY SMOOTH, THAT IMPLEMENTATION HAS BEEN PRETTY SMOOTH ALL ACROSS THE CITY.

>> IT'S HAVING AN FEK ON BUSINESS AND IT'S HAVING AN EFFECT ON DIFFERENT PARTS OF IT IT I MEAN WE HAVE LARGE EVENTS THAT ARE WITHDRAWING FROM THE CITY.

WE HAVE TRADE SHOWS RESCHEDULING.

WE HAVE REGIONAL BUS TOUR OPERATORS NOW SAYING THEY'RE GOING TO DISIP BOSTON AND JUST GO TO NEWPORT, NEW HAMPSHIRE AND MAINE.

AND YOU KNOW, WE'VE HAD PROBLEMS AT THE FRONT DOOR.

>> Braude: IT STEAMS TO KNEE THEY CAN'T BOTH BE RIGHT, WHO IS?

>> WELL, I THINK THAT IT IS JUST DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES.

I REALIZE THAT WHAT IS HAPPENING NOW IN ERM ITS OF OUR BUSINESSES IS JUST TOUGH.

THE PANDEMIC HAS BEEN TOUGH ON BUSINESSES AND ENTERTAINMENT.

AND CERTAINLY WE'RE IN THE MIDDLE OF A SURGE, WE'RE STILL.

THOUGH WE ARE COULD YOU SHUSLY OPTIMISTIC THAT OUR NUMBERS ARE GOING IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.

THE FACT THAT WE ARE IN THE MIDDLE OF THIS SURGE CERTAINLY MAY DISSWAYED PEOPLE FROM GOING OUT AND EATING IN RESTAURANTS OR ENGAGING IN ENTERTAINMENT ACTIVITIES.

SO CERTAINLY THAT MAY BE A FACTOR, NOT JUST THE ISSUE OF THE INDOOR VACCINATION REQUIREMENT.

BUT THE OTHER THING THAT IS A MORE POSITIVE NOTE IS THAT WE HAVE SEEN LESS, FEWER COMPLAINTS, FEWER ISSUES IN RELATIONSHIP TO THE INDOOR VACCINE.

WE HAVE A VACCINATION REQUIREMENT THAN MAYBE WE ANTICIPATED.

AND ON MAYOR WU'S COVID ADVISORY COMMITTEE WE HAVE A NUMBER OF BUSINESS LEADERS WHO ACTUALLY WELCOME THE CITY TAKING A LEADERSHIP ROLE IN THIS REGARD.

SO I HAVE TO SAY IT HAS BEEN A POSITIVE STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION, DEFINITELY A POSITIVE INITIATIVE.

>> SO TO BE CLEAR WHEN BOB LUZ SAYS SOME RESTAURANTS ARE LOSING 15,000 BUCKS A WEEK, IT IS CONCEIVABLE THAT THAT IS TRUE.

BUT I THINK YOU'RE SUGGESTING SADLY THAT MAY BE THE COST OF DEALING WITH THIS PANDEMIC NOW SO THAT WE'RE RID OF IT SOONER RATHER THAN LATER, IS THAT A FAIR CHARACTERIZATION OF WHERE WE ARE?

>> I THINK SO.

I THINK IF SOME OF THIS IS A BIT OF A TRADEOFF IN A SENSE.

I THINK THAT WE WERE AT THE POINT IN TERMS OF OUR VACCINATION CITYWIDE WHERE IF YOU COMPARE THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO WERE SORT OF GETTING THEIR FIRST VACCINE DOSE WEEK-TO-WEEK, WE WERE RATHER STAGNANT.

WE WERE SORT OF FLAT IN TERMS OF UPTAKE.

AND IT IT WASN'T UNTIL WE INSTITUTED THIS MANDATE AND OTHER THINGS HAPPENED.

WE REALLY RAMPED UP ACCESS.

WE REALLY PUT FORTH A STRONG EFFORT IN TERMS OF MEDIA CAMPAIGN TO GET PEOPLE VACCINATED AND IT IS SO CRITICALLY IMPORTANT TO ENDING THE SURGE AND FOR PROTECTION AS WE MOVE FORWARD WITH COVID AND LIVING WITH COVID-19, THAT WE HAD TO DO SOMETHING.

>> Braude: LET ME ASK YOU WHEN I ASKED MAYOR WU WHEN SHE WAS ON THE RADIO A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO ROUGHLY.

THIS WILL MAKE THE RESTAURANT ASSOCIATION EVEN LESS HAPPY.

IF WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A VACCINE MANDATE IN BOSTON TO GO INTO RESTAURANTS AND WE KNOW THAT THE BOOSTER NOT ONLY LIMITS THE SPREAD BUT ALSO MAKES THE BOOSTED PERSON SAFER, WHY IS FULLY VACCINATED AS A FEBRUARY 15th NOT FULLY-- NOT INCLUDING A BOOSTER SAY COME, I DON'T KNOW, MARCH 1S OR MARCH 15th ASSUMING THE MANDATE IS STILL THERE?

>> UH-HUH, SO YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

BOOSTERS ARE INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT IN TERMS OF PROTECTING PEOPLE FROM SEVERE ILLNESS AND HOSPITALIZATION, DECREASING EMERGENCY DEPARTMENT AND URGENT CARE AS WELL AS DECREASING SIM TO MAT ECK AND ASYMPTOMATIC ILLNESS.

BUT YOU CAN'T GET BOOSTED UNTIL YOU GET VACCINATED.

SO YOU HAVE TO GET YOUR PRIMARY SERIES, SO THIS IS THE FIRST STEP.

I THINK OUR GOAL AS A CITY IS TO REMAIN NIMBLE, TO FOLLOW OUR DATA AND TO DO TWHA WE THINK IS BEST IN TERMS OF TAKING THOSE FIRST STEPS TO GETTING US WHERE WE WANT TO GO.

APSE A CITY, WE'RE PROBABLY AROUND 48 PERCENT BOOSTED.

AND I THINK WE HAVE A LOT MORE WORK TO DO.

BUT THAT WORK IS ON THE HORIZON.

IT'S DEFINITELY SOMETHING WE'RE WORK ON EVERY DAY.

>> Braude: SO AT SOME POINT BEING BOOSTED MAY BE ADDED TO THE DEFINITION OF FULLY VACCINATED, THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE SAYING, CORRECT?

>> WELL, I THINK THE TERMINOLOGY IS ALREADY CHANGING.

SO FULLY VACCINATED DOES INCORPORATE JUST THE PRIMARY SERIES BUT WHAT I THINK IS HAPPENING NATIONALLY IS CHANGING THE, SORT OF THE PHRASING TO UP TO DATE.

>> I WANT TO BE CLEAR, I'M SORRY, MAYBE YOU DIDN'T UNDERSTAND.

IS THERE TAYE POINT AT WHICH IF THE VACCINE MANDATE STAYS IN PLACE TO GET INTO A RESTAURANT, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT IT WON'T JUST BE TWO SHOTS AS OF FEBRUARY 15th, AT SOME LATER DATE IT MIGHT BE TWO SHOTS PLUS A BOOSTER, THAT IS WHAT I AM ASKING, I'M SORRY.

>> WELL, NO, I ACTUALLY UNDERSTAND YOUR POINT.

I THINK THAT WE HAVE TO LOOK AT ALL OPTIONS ON THE TABLE.

WE NEED TO PROTECT OUR POPULATIONS FROM AS I SAID SEVERE ILLNESS AND HOSPITALIZATION, AS WE LOOK AT OUR METRICS WE WILL REMAIN NIMBLE AND LOOK AT ALL OPTIONS IN THIS EVER EVOLVING PANDEMIC.

>> AND THE MAYOR HAS ALSO SAID I THINK IT WAS IN MID JANUARY THAT THERE IS A SMALL BUSINESS RELIEF FUND WHICH IS GOING TO BE GIVING GRANTS, I THINK UP TO TEN, MAXIMUM OF TEN GRAND PER BUSINESS TO HELP 300 GIVE OR TAKE, A FEW NUMBERS OF SMALL BUSINESSES GET THROUGH THIS DIFFICULT PERIOD.

WHEN IS THAT HAPPENING?

>> SO I HAVE IT TO SAY I DON'T HAVE THE ANSWER TO THAT.

I APOLOGIZE, I HAVE TO GET THAT TO YOU AFTER THIS.

>> OKAY, LET'S MOVE TO THE MANDATE FOR CITY EMPLOYEES.

I KNOW I CAN'T TALK ABOUT THE ONGOING LITIGATION WITH THE PUBLIC EMPLOYEES.

I CAN BY THE WAY EVEN THOUGH YOU CAN'T AND THE FACT THAT THE PATROL MAN'S UNION IS SAYING NO AND IS REQUIRING SOME THING BE GIVEN THEM AND THAT TWO FREE MENTAL HEALTH DAYS IS NOT ENOUGH IS JUST UNBELIEVABLE TO ME.

BUT LET'S GO BEYOND THAT.

IT'S WORKING, IS IT IT NOT, THE REALITY IS, THE MANDATE FOR EMPLOYEES IS CAUSING THE NUMBERS OF VACCINATED CITY EMPLOYEES TO SKYROCKET, IS THAT NOT CORRECT?

>> THAT IS CORRECT.

I MEAN MOST CITY EMPLOYEES ARE NOW VACCINATED.

I BELIEVE THE LAST NUMBER WAS 94, 95 PERCENT.

WE ANTICIPATED THIS.

SO MANDATES NORMALIZE VACCINATION, MAKE IT ROUTINE, STANDARD PRACTICE.

WE KNOW IT WORKS.

SCHOOL-BASED VACCINATION WORKS, SCHOOL-BASED VACCINATION MANDATES WORK, VAC NATION MOST WORKERS IN HEALTH CARE SETTINGS, THAT ALSO WORKS.

SO IT IT IS AN IMPORTANT STRATEGY TO USE WHEN YOU REALLY NEED TO GET TO THE POINT WHERE WE GET, YOU KNOW, MOST OF THE POPULATION VACCINATED.

>> Braude: DO YOU NOT WORRY, THERE WAS A STORY IN THE GLOBE ABOUT THE BOSTON TEACHERS UNION SUGGESTING THAT FOR THOSE WHO ARE UNVACCINATED IN THEIR NUMBERS AND THEY MENTIONED, THE GLOBE MENTIONED THAT SOMEWHERE IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD OF 75 PERCENT OF THE KIDS IN THE BOSTON PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM ARE EITHER BLACK OR LATINO.

ONLY 42 PERCENT OF THEIR TEACHERS ARE BLACK AND LATINO.

THE SUGGEST FROM THE BTU WAS THAT THE MANDATE WILL HAVE A DISPROPORTIONATELY NEGATIVE EFFECT ON TEACHERS OF COLOR.

ONE DO YOU FIND THAT TO BE AN ACCURATE ASSESSMENT.

AND TWO, IF IT IS, DOES IT NOT WORRY YOU?

>> SO I THINK THAT MY CONCERN IS TO GET EVERYBODY VACCINATED AND BOOSTED SO THAT WE CAN ADDRESS WHAT IS, IN THAT WILL ADDRESS MANY OF THE DISPARITIES, THE STARK DISPARITIES WE HAVE SEEN THROUGHOUT THE COVID-19 PANDEMIC.

YOU KNOW, A CENTRAL FOCUS OF PUBLIC HEALTH IS THE PURSUIT OF HEALTH EQUITY, RIGHT.

>> Braude: SURE.

>> SO IF YOU TAKE AN INTERVENTION LIKE VACCINATION AND YOU APPLY IT UNIFORMLY AND UNIVERSALLY AND THOSE POSITIVE EFFECTS THAT WE JUST TALKED ABOUT IN TERMS OF DECREASING SEVERE HOSPITALIZATION, DECREASING SEVERE ILLNESS, DECREASING EMERGENCY AND UTILIZATION, ARE YOU EVEN CLOSER TO ACHIEVING THE GOAL OF ELIMINATING INEQUITY.

SO ALL OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE IN THE RAISE AND ETHNIC GROUPS WHO HAVE BEEN SUFFERING SUFFERING FROM INEQUITY THROUGH THROUGHOUT THIS PANNED, WE CAN CLOSE THAT GAP AND ELIMINATE SOME OF THOSE DISPARITIES IF WE APPLY VACCINATION UNIVERSALLY.

>> CAN WE RETURN JUST FOR A SECOND TO THE SMALL BUSINESSES, WELL, ALL BUSINESSES BUT SMALL BUSINESSES IN PARTICULAR THAT I KNOW MAYOR WU AND YOU ARE PARTICULARLY CONCERNED ABOUT.

THERE IS NO END DATE, IT SEEMS TO ME THAT IF I WERE IN THEIR POSITION AND WAS TROUBLED BY THIS MANDATE WHETHER IT IS AS A CONCEPT OR NOT OR PURELY BECAUSE IT IS HURTING MY BOTTOMLINE, IF I KNEW EITHER WHAT THE END DATE WAS OR WHAT THE END DATE WAS TIED TO T A CERTAIN POSITIVITY RATE, A CERTAIN VACCINATION RATE, IT SEEMS TO ME IT WOULD BE MORE VOLUMERRABLE IT TO GET THROUGH.

IS THAT GOING TO BE MADE PUBLIC AT SOME POINT?

DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE POINT IS ONCE REACHED WOULD CAUSE THE VACCINATION MANDATE TO ENTER A RESTAURANT OR A GYM OR A PERFORMANCE VENUE TO DISAPPEAR, DO YOU NO HE THAT?

>> WE'RE ACTUALLY LOOKING AT OUR METRICS EVERY SINGLE DAY TO DETERMINE WHEN WE THINK THAT IT WOULD BE APPROPRIATE FOR US TO ADJUST POLICY MAKING OR ADJUST THIS PARTICULAR POLICY ACCORDINGLY.

THE REALITY IS THAT ACROSS THE COUNTRY IN THOSE JURISDICTIONS THAT HAVE IMPLEMENTED SIMILAR INDOOR VACCINE REQUIREMENTS THEY ARE ALSO LOOKING AT THEIR METRICS ON A REGULAR BASIS SO WE GOING TO VOLUME OUR-- FOLLOW OUR POSITIVITY RATE, OUR HOSPITALIZATIONS, ALL OF THIS IS TRENDING IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.

AND WE'LL MAKE CHANGES ACCORDINGLY.

I DON'T THINK THAT THIS IS MEANT TO BE SOMETHING INDEFINITE.

>> I UNDERSTAND, BUT ONE LAST QUESTION IF I MAY, IS IT POSSIBLE THAT YOU WILL ANNOUNCE BEFORE THE FACT THAT WHEN WE REACH AND I'M MAKING UP A NUMBER, 10% POSITIVE ITITY OR 83 PERCENT FULLY VACCINATED, THAT IS THE TRIGGER WHICH WOULD END THE MANDATES?

IS IT FOB THAT COULD BE ANNOUNCED?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THAT'S THE POINT OF LOOKING AT OUR DATA ON A REGULAR BASIS AND DETERMINING WHERE WE THINK IT MIGHT BE APPROPRIATE AND SAFE FOR PEOPLE TO ENGAGE IN ACTIVITIES WITHOUT HAVING THIS INDOOR UBER VACCINE REQUIREMENT.

SO WE'RE LOOKING AT OUR VACCINATION RATE AS A CITY, WE'RE 70.5 PERCENT FULLY VACCINATED, 48% BOOSTED.

OUR HOSPITALIZATIONS ARE TRENDING DOWNWARD BUT THEY'RE STILL HIGH.

OUR OVERALL COMMUNITY POSITIVITY RATE IS 17 PERCENT DOWN FROM A HIGH OVER 32 PERCENT.

SO AS WE FOLLOW THOSE WE WILL COME TO WHAT WE'RE CALLING A THRESHHOLD AND AT THAT POINT WE CAN SHIFT IN TERMS OF OUR POLICIES.

>> Braude: DR. OJIKUTU, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR WORK AND YOUR TIME, I APPRECIATE IT IT.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> Braude: USING HIS FAMOUS NAME TO SPREAD ANTI-VACCINATION LIES IS NOTHING NEW FOR ROBERT KENNEDY, JR. FOR YEARS HE'S PUSHED DEBUNKED CLAIMS ABOUT VACCINE CAUSING AUTISM AND FOOD ALLERGIES IN KIDS.

BUT HIS LATEST LIES ABOUT VACCINES HAVE VEERED A INTO NEW EVEN MORE DANGEROUS TERRITORY, AS WE SAW THE WEEKEND BEFORE LAST WHEN HE SPOKE AT A D.C. RALLY AGAINST VACCINE MANDATES.

>> EVEN IN HITLER'S GERMANY YOU COULD CROSS THE ALPS INTO SWITZERLAND, YOU CAN HIDE IN AN ATTIC LIKE ANNE FRANK DID, IT WAS POSSIBLE,.

>> Braude: THAT IS THE SON OF ROBERT F. KENNEDY.

BUT THE IMMEDIATE CONDEMN NATION FROM JUST ABOUT EVERY CORNER ULTIMATELY LED RFK, JR. TO ISSUE A HALFHEARTED APOLOGY SAYING TO THE EXTENT MY REMARKS CAUSED HURT, I'M TRULY AND DEEPLY SORRY.

BUT THIS WASN'T EVEN THE FIRST TIME HE TRIED TO MAKE THE COMPARISON.

JUST LAST MONTH HE PUT OUT A VIDEO THAT SHOWED DR. ANTHONY FAUCI WITH A HITLER MUS TACKER AND THEN THERE IS JOE ROGAN, SPOTIFY CHOSE HIM AND HIS 11 MILLION LISTENERS OVER NEIL YOUNG BUT DON'T WORRY OLD JOE PLANS TO DIVERSIFY HIS GUEST LIST, WHAT, WITH IVANKA AND DON, JR.

SO HOW DO WE COMBAT MISINFORMATION SO WRONG, SO DEADLY AND SO EASY TO FIND?

JOINING ME TO DISCUSS ARE IMRAN AHMED, C.E.O.

OF THE CENTER FOR COUNTERING DIGITAL HATE, AND JEFFREY BLEVINS, PROFESSOR OF UNIFORM AT THE UNIVERSITY OF CINCINNATI, THANKS SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING US.

>> IMRAN, ARE YOU THE GUY AND YOUR IS THE INFORMATION BEHIND THE DS INFORMATION DOZEN WHICH INCLUDES ROBERT F. KENNEDY, JR.

LIST, CAN YOU TELL PEOPLE WHAT THE LIST IS AND HOW WIDE THE REACH IS OF THOSE DOZEN?

>> THE DISINFORMATION DOZEN WAS A REPORT WE PUBLISHED IN MARCH 2021 WHICH OUTLINES HOW 12 INDIVIDUALS AND THE COMPANIES THEY CONTROL OFTEN A NETWORK OF 501C3S, LIMITED COMPANIES ARE BEHIND 65 PERCENT OF THE SHARES OF MISINFORMATION ON SOCIAL MEDIA.

SO THEY ARE PRODUCING THE CONTENT THAT IS GOING MOST VIRAL.

WE DID THE ANALYSIS BY LOOKING AT WHAT ARE THE THINGS THAT ARE BEING POSTED, WHAT ARE THE LINKS AND TRACKED THEM BACK TO THESE 12 PEOPLE.

AND THAT'S HAD A BIG INFLUENCE ON CHANGING THE PERCEPTION OF MISINFORMATION, DISINFORMATION ABOUT VACCINES FROM BEING SOMETHING WHICH PEOPLE THOUGHT WAS JUST SPONTANEOUSLY THERE IN SOCIETY, IT TO SOMETHING THAT IS A PLANNED, ORDERED, WELL DISCIPLINED AND ECONOMICICALLY MOTIVATED PHENOMENON SWRZ WHEN YOU SAY ECONOMICICALLY MOTIVATED YOU ALSO DEMONSTRATED THAT THE SOME IF NOT ALL OF THESE DOZEN ARE MAKING A TON OF MONEY ON THEIR DEADLY INFORMATION, NO?

>> WELL, INDEED.

IN FACT ROBERT F. KENNEDY, JR. EARNS A QUARTER OF A MILLION DOLLAR SALARY FROM THE CHILDREN'S HEALTH DEFENSE, OR HE DID TWO YEARS AGO.

WE DON'T KNOW WHAT HIS MOST RECENT SALARY IS.

BUT THAT'S QUITE A LOT OF CASH, YOU KNOW, MORE THAN I EARN.

AND YOU KNOW OTHERS LIKE JOE-- THE NUMBER ONE ON THE LIST, HE CLAIMS TO HAVE MADE 100 MILLION DOLLARS OVER THE YEARS SELLING ALL SORTS OF SUPPLEMENTS AND OTHER WEIRD THINGS WHICH HE ATTRIBUTES MAGICAL POWERS TO.

>> Braude: AND BY THE WAY KENNEDY'S ORGANIZATION HAS GONE FROM ROUGHLY A MILLION DOLLARS IN REVENUE THREE YEARS AGO TO ALMOST 7 MILLION NOW, JEFFREY BLEVINS, YOU HAVE ALSO DONE RESEARCH ON BAD INFORMATION AND THE SOURCES, HYDROXYCHLOROQUINE IN PARTICULAR, WHO DO WE ATTRIBUTE THAT BAD INFORMATION TO OTHER THAN DONALD TRUMP HIMSELF?

>> WELL YEAH, YOU KNOW, FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP GOT A LOT OF THE BLAME FOR THAT BUT ORIGINALLY MISINFORMATION ABOUT HYDROXYCHLOROQUINE ON TWITTER ORIGINATED FROM JUST A FEW Q-ANON RELATED ACCOUNTS.

IT WOULDN'T HAVE SPREAD, HOWEVER, FOR PEOPLE LIKE DONALD TRUMP AND A LOT OF RIGHT WING PERSONALITIES ON SOCIAL MEDIA.

THEY ARE REALLY, YOU KNOW, THE INFLUENCERS IN THIS-- IN THESE KINDS OF CONVERSATIONS.

AND THE PROBLEM IS WHAT IF OUR INFLUENCERS REALLY AREN'T INFORMED ENOUGH TO BE TALKING INTELLIGENTLY ABOUT MEDICAL ISSUES, VACCINES AND THE LIKE.

>> Braude: OR CHOOSE NOT TO BE INFORMED ENOUGH.

YOU KNOW JEFFREY BLEVINS, STAYING WITH YOU FOR A SECOND.

THE MOST RECENT BATTLE IN THIS FRONT HAS BEEN THE NEIL YOUNG VERSUS SPOTIFY AND JOE ROGAN.

JOE ROGAN WON AND I'M ASSUMING IT'S ALL ABOUT THE BOTTOMLINE.

A HUNDRED MILLION DOLLAR EXCLUSIVE DEAL WITH HIM FOR HIS PODCAST.

AND OBVIOUSLY SPOTIFY'S MOVING MORE INTO THE PODCAST BUSINESS.

IT'S ALL ABOUT THE BOTTOMLINE, RIGHT?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

YOU KNOW, SPOTIFY HAS A HUNDRED MILLION REASONS TO BE INVESTED IN JOE ROGAN.

AT THIS POINT.

AND YOU KNOW, THEY DIDN'T MAKE THAT INVESTMENT LIGHTLY.

QUITE FRANKLY, THEY'RE MAKING MORE BANK OFF OF HIM THAN, YOU KNOW, THE MUSICAL ARTISTS THAT HAVE LEFT THE PLATFORM.

>> Braude: IMRAN, THANKS TO YOUR TERRIFIC WORK ON THIS DISINFORMATION DOZEN, THERE HAS BEEN A TON OF DEEP PLATFORMING OF THESE DOZEN.

HOW EFFECTIVE HAS THAT-- SHALL HAS THAT EFFORT BEEN?

>> WELL, DEPLAT PERFORMING IS INCREDIBLY EFFECTIVE.

ESSENTIALLY IF YOU DON'T ALLOW PEOPLE TO USE THE MOST POWERFUL MEGA PHONES IN HUMAN HISTORY, SOCIAL MEDIA, THEN YOU TAKE AWAY THEIR ABILITY TO PREPARE NONSENSE, TO VAST AUDIENCES.

AND WE HAVE SEEN THAT THOSE INDIVIDUALS WHO HAVE HAD THEIR PLATFORMS TAKEN AWAY, NOT ONLY HAS IT REDUCED THEIR REACH BUT WE HAVE SEEN FOR EXAMPLE INVESTIGATIONS THEY FILED AGAINST COMPANIES LIKE FACEBOOK AND GOOGLE, THEY THEMSELVES ADMIT THAT IT HAS DEVASTATED THEIR INCOME.

THEY'RE NOT COMPLAINING ABOUT NOT BEING ABLE TO GET THE TRUTH OUT THERE, THEY'RE SAYING I CAN'T MAKE MONEY FROM THE NONSENSE I WAS SPREADING.

>> Braude: BUT YOU KNOW, IT STEAMS TO ME THAT THIS BUSINESS IS LIKE WHACK A MOLE, BECAUSE WHEN I WAS READING I DON'T KNOW, A MONTH OR SO AGO, IMRAN ABOUT THE DEPLATFORMING SUCCESS, THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN WE STARTED READING ABOUT THE 11 MILLION LISTENERS TO EVERY EPISODE OF JOE ROGAN.

SO YOU TAMPED DOWN ONE AND ANOTHER POPS UP IN HIS OR HER PLACE, DON'T THEY?

>> I THINK WE HAVE A PROBLEM WHICH IS BEYOND THE BAD ACTORS.

WE HAVE A CULTURE THAT IS PROBLEMATIC AS WELL.

SO IT IS NOT JUST BAD ACTORS.

WE HAVE BAD PLATFORMS AND THE CULTURE THAT ENABLES THEM IS THIS IDEA THAT FOR SOME REASON THEY SHOULD BE DIFFERENT SETTINGS OF SOCIAL MOREES, OF HOW WE, OF THE NORMS OF BEHAVIOR ON SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS, THAT MISINFORMATION AND SPREADING IT SHOULD SHOW BE ACCEPTABLE.

AND THERE SHOULD BE NO CONSEQUENCES FOR A COMPANY THAT PROFITS FROM IT, OR FROM AN INDIVIDUAL WHO SPREADS IT THEMSELVES.

I'M AFRAID THERE SHOULD BE.

AND QUITE RIGHTLY WHAT WE ARE SEEING WITH SPOTIFY IS AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF -- BEING HEAPED ON THEM BY ALL SECTORS OF SOCIETY, BY LAWMAKERS, BY OTHER ARTISTS, BY SHAREHOLDERS.

>> AND THEY'RE CLEARLY FEELING THE PRESSURE BECAUSE THEY HAVE COME OUT IN THE LAST FEW DAYS WITH A STATEMENT SAYING THEY ARE NOW GOING TO PUT WARNING LABELS ON THEIR OWN SERVICE, WARNING, SAYING ESSENTIALLY, DON'T LISTEN TO THE NONSENSE YOU HEAR ON THIS STATION, BECAUSE WE-- RUBBISH.

>> Braude: WARNING STATEMENT THIS BIG, AND JOE ROGAN THIS BIG, JEFFREY BLEVINS, I'M ALWAYS A HUGE BELIEVER IN HEARING BOTH SIDES.

BUT WHEN THERE AREN'T BOTH SIDES, I REMEMBER, I DON'T KNOW A HALF DOZEN YEARS AGO LOS ANGELES TIMES SAID THEY WOULDN'T PUBLISH ANY MORE LETTERS FROM CLIMATE CHANGE DENIERS BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T HAVE ANY MERIT.

SHOULD WE IN THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA, AND I KNOW THERE IS A LOT OF MEDIA BEYOND US.

SHOULD WE IN THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA NOT EVEN BE GIVING OXYGEN TO THE RFK, JR.S AND THE OTHER PEOPLE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT HERE?

OR DO WE HAVE NO CHOICE?

>> TO BE HONEST WITH YOU, I DON'T THINK IT MATTERS EITHER WAY.

I THOUGHT YOUR WHACK A MOLE ANALOGY WAS QUITE A GOOD ONE IN THE SENSE THAT ONCE, YOU KNOW, THESE PURVEYORS ARE DEPLATFORMED, IT'S TOO LATE.

THE GENIE IS OUT OF THE BOTTLE.

HERE IS ANOTHER THING TOO.

WHEN WE ARE TALKING ABOUT MEDICAL DISINFORMATION, THERE WAS AN INTERESTING STUDY OUT OF GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY AND THEY LOOKED AT THE PERIOD FROM MARCH OF 2020 TO LATE LAST YEAR, AND THERE IS ACTUALLY MORE CEDABLE INFORMATION ABOUT VACCINES AND COVID THAN THERE IS MISINFORMATION ON SOCIAL MEDIA.

HOWEVER, YOU KNOW, IT'S JUST NOT GETTING THE SAME TYPE OF TRACTION.

SO YOU KNOW, IT'S REALLY NOT A MATTER OF WELL, YOU KNOW, DO WE ELEVATE ONE OR DO WE SILENCE THE OTHER.

I THINK WE REALLY HAVE A KNOWLEDGE CRISIS IN THIS COUNTRY PARTICULARLY ON SOCIAL MEDIA, IS THAT MOST PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, CAN'T TELL IT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CEDABLE SOURCES AND INCREDIBLE SOURCES.

AND YOU KNOW, PEOPLE ARE REALLY GOING ONLINE IT TO CONFIRM THEIR OWN BIASES ANYWAY.

>> Braude: SO THAT SEEMS TO ME TO BE, I HOPE YOU TAKE THIS THE RIGHT WAY, A PRETTY DEFEATIST ATTITUDE, MAYBE IT IS REAL.

BUT SO IS THE BOTTOMLINE IS GRIN AND BEAR IT AND JUST HOPE THIS IS OVER AT SOME POINT, SWREFRY?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, I FEEL LIKE THERE'S ONLY SO MUCH THAT AS IN THE JOURNALISM INDUSTRY CAN DO.

AT SOME POINT THE AUDIENCES HAVE TO START CARING ABOUT WHAT WITH THE TRUTH IS.

AND START CARING ABOUT CEDABLE SOURCES OF INFORMATION VERSUS INCREDIBLE ONES.

UNTIL THAT CHANGES, I MEAN, AT WHAT POINT DO INDIVIDUALS HAVE TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE NRCHTION THEY CONSUME.

>> Braude: IMRAN DO YOU BUY THAT NOTION THAT IT'S GOT TO SORT OF PLAY ITSELF OUT UNTIL PEOPLE GROW UP AND GET REAL?

>> YOU KNOW, ONCE THE UNIQUE THINGS ABOUT U.S. LAW, WHEN IT COMES TO INTERNET COMPANIES, SOMETHING CALLED SECTION 230 IN THE COMMUNICATIONS DECENCY OF 1996, SO 25 YEARS AGO CONGRESS LEGISLATED TO GIVE TECH COMPANIES IMMUNITY FROM ANY CIVIL OR CRIMINAL LIABILITY FOR THE CONTENT ON THEIR WEBSITE MADE BY THIRD PARTY.

AND 25 YEARS LATER, THAT WAS BEFORE SOCIAL MEDIA EVEN EXISTED.

25 YEARS LATER THAT HAS ALLOWED A CULTURE OF, ESSENTIALLY A LACK OF RESPONSIBILITY.

A LACK OF A DUTY OF CARE TO USERS TO NOT JUST EMERGE LEGALLY BUT ALSO CULTURALLY AS WELL.

AND I THINK THAT WE CAN PUSH BACK ON THAT.

AND WHAT WE'VE SEEN, I MEAN I'VE BEEN IN THIS GAME FOR FIVE OR SIX YEARS NOW.

UNTIL LAST YEAR, PEOPLE ASKED ME, ARE YOU SURE THERE ISN'T ANY OFF LINE HARM BY ONLINE MALL IG NATIONAL ACTIVITY.

I WOULD ARGUE THAT THERE WAS.

BUT AFTER JANUARY 6th AND THE PANDEMIC NO ONE IS ASKING ME THAT ANY MORE.

I THINK WE WHERE ON AN INEVITABLE, SORT OF A PATH TO LEGISLATION AND TO ACCOUNTABILITY FOR THESE COMPANIES COMING INTO PLACE.

INCLUDING FOR SPOTIFY WHICH IS PUBLISHING STUFF WHICH HAS LEAD, AND MISINFORMATION HAS LEAD DIRECTLY TO PEOPLE RIGHT NOW AS WE ARE TALKING, LYING IN INTENSIVE CARE UNITS, CHOKING FOR BREATHE, SAYING I THOUGHT THE VACCINE WOULD HARM ME.

>> Braude: IMRAN I AGREE WITH YOUR ANALYSIS COMPLETELY, BUT DON'T YOU WORRY ABOUT DRAMATIC CHANGES TO SECTION 230, THE GOOD NEWS IS IT MAY HELP FIX THIS PROBLEM.

THE BAD NEWS IS IT IS A REALLY SLIPPERY SLOPE WHEN IT DOMES TO THE SMALLER GUY OR WOMAN HAVING ACCESS TO THE ABILITY TO SPREAD THEIR LEGITIMATE IDEAS WHEN THE FACEBOOKS MIGHT JUST NOT TAKE A CHANCE.

>> WELL, NO HOLD ON A SECRETARY.

WHEN THE BIG ACTORS THEMSELVES ARE BEHAVING SO BADLY AND, YEAH, THERE IS AN ARGUMENT IT WHAT HARM SMALL BUSINESSES THE MOST.

WELL, IN FACT, ALL THAT YOU WOULD DO IS, IF YOU REMOVED THIS COMMUNITY CLAUSE THAT THEY'VE GOT YOU WOULD MAKE THEM LIKE EVERY OTHER BUSINESS, SMALL, MEDIUM AND LARGE IN AMERICA, THAT YOU HAVE A DUTY OF CARE TO YOUR CUSTOMERS.

AND IF YOU DO NOT ACT RESPONSIBILITILY AND THE RESPONSIBLE PERSON WOULD TURN AROUND AND GO GOSH, YOU HAVE BEEN REALLY IRRESPONSIBLE IN YOUR DUTY OF CARE TO YOUR CUSTOMERS AND USERS, THEN THEY MAY BE LIABLE.

BUT THEY WOULD ESSENTIALLY BE LIKE THE REST OF US.

AND THERE ARE NO KINGS IN AMERICA.

YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE THINGS I LIKE ABOUT THIS COUNTRY.

>> Braude: THERE ARE ACTUALLY ARE SOME KINGS IN AMERICA, BUT I KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN.

>> NOT BEYOND THE LAW ITSELF.

>> Braude: UNDERSTOOD.

JEFFREY, ARE YOU GOING TO SIGN ON IMRAN'S CAMPAIGN ABOUT SECTION 230 OR NO?

>> WELL, WITH A COUPLE OF CAVEATS.

ONE IS THAT ANOTHER PERSON WHO WANTS TO GET RID OF SECTION 230 IS FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP.

AND I DO WORRY ABOUT WHAT COULD BE SOME OF THE BYPRODUCT OF THAT.

>> Braude: BY THE WAY, JOE BIDEN HAS CRITICIZED SECTION 230 AS WELL BY THE WAY, NOT JUST TRUMP.

>> THAT'S TRUE.

THAT'S TRUE, BUT I REALLY THINK THIS IS MORE OF AN ECONOMIC ISSUE.

AND WE COULD STILL SANCTION COMPANIES LIKE SPOTIFY AND TWITTER BY TAKING OUR ATTENTION ELSEWHERE.

>> Braude: ONE LAST THING FOR BOTH OF YOU.

ONE OF THE WORRIES.

I WORRY A LOT ABOUT WHAT YOU TWO WORRY ABOUT FOR A LIVING.

BUT I ALSO WORRY ABOUT THIS ANTISCIENCE EXPLOSION, MOVEMENT, WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT POST, EVEN POST COVID, JEFFREY, STARTING WITH YOU, DOES IT IT STUR VIVE AND LAST BEYOND COVID CUZ I'M AFRAID IT IT DOES.

>> I'M AFRAID IT DOES TOO.

I KNOW I'M A BIT OF A PES MIST HERE.

YOU ABOUT I THINK IT GOES AGAIN KNOWLEDGE CRIES NIS THIS COUNTRY AND EXPERT-- SCIENTIFIC EXPERTISE HAS BEEN POLITICIZED AND MUCH LIKE JOURNALISM HAS.

>> Braude: IMRAN HOW ABOUT YOU.

>> I THINK THAT THE WAR AGAINST SCIENCE BY SOME PEOPLE HAS BEEN ACCELERATED IN COVID BUT IT HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR SOME TIME AND IT IS THE DRIP, DRIP OF MISINFORMATION OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME THAT HAS RECOLORED THE LENS THROUGH WHICH MANY PEOPLE SEE THE WORLD AND SEE SCIENTIFIC DEBATE.

AND EVEN IF THIS CRISIS ABATES AND THE GREAT ANXIETY THAT IS DRIVEN A WAVE OF CONSPIRACYISM AITY BAS NOW WE STILL HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE LONG-TERM CHANGES HAPPENING IN SOCIETIES ALL AROUND THE WORLD.

BECAUSE THEY FUNDAMENTALLY IMPEDE OUR ABILITY FOR COLLECTIVE ACTION ON REALLY IMPORTANT THINGS FOR OUR KIDS LIKE CLIMATE CHANGE BUT ALSO FOR THE VERY, YOU KNOW, THE INTEGRITY OF OUR DEMOCRACY.

THAT IS THE MOST PRECIOUS THING THAT WE HAVE TO PRESERVE.

>> Braude: IMRAN AHMED, SWREF REE BLEVINS, I REALLY APPRECIATE THIS.

THANKS FOR YOUR TIME.

>> HAPPY TO BE HERE, THANK YOU.

>> Braude: THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT, PLEASE COME BACK TOMORROW, INTERIM SUFFOLK COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY KEVIN LEYDEN-- HAYDEN JOINS ME ON HIS AGENDA AND IF HE WILL SEEK ELECTION FOR THE OFFICE HE WAS JUST APPOINTED TO BY SECRETARY BAKER.

PLUS BILL GALVIN ON HIS HISTORIC RUN FOR AN EIGHT-TERM IN OFFICE.

THAT AND MORE TOMORROW AT 7:00.

THANKS FOR WATCHING, PLEASE STAY SAFE.

Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org