Thanks for tuning in.

When Detroit went into bankruptcy, former federal judge Gerald Rosen was in the thick of things.

He's got a book talking about it.

Our lead story, Gar Peters will not run for the U.S. Senate.

So who will?

Offering their insights, Chuck Stokes, Zoe Clark, and Bill Ballenger sit in with us as we get the inside out.

Off the record production of Off the Record is made possible in par by Bellwether public relations, a full servic strategic communications agency partnering with clients through public relations, digital marketing and issue advocacy.

Learn more at bellwetherpr.com And now this edition of Off the Record with Tim Skubick.

Thanks very much.

Welcome to Studio C, big newsweek again in our town.

So your first reaction when you heard Peters was not going to run again?

I was surprised.

Okay.

I'm going to be a contrarian.

I was not shocked.

Okay.

Surprise.

Did he call you personally?

No.

At the sense I mean, first huge hat tip to the Detroit News for Breaking the news.

Other folks are reportin that he only let sort of other lawmakers politicos know what, within 20, 30 minutes of the Detroit News actually breaking the story.

But, look, you know, it is not an easy time right now to be in D.C. And when you have conversations with, you know, sitting lawmakers and those who were sitting, it's not fun and it's hard.

And you're fundraising constantly.

And it's not only that the Democrats have now lost a majority and it doesn't look good for them in 2026.

Yeah, that's the political landscape.

He's looking ahead saying, I get reelected, I'm in the minorit in perpetuity at the age of 66.

I'm not sure I want to do that.

Go ahead Chuck.

No, no, no, please.

You know, it's funny.

I was surprised.

But now when I think back on it, I ran into Senator Peters and his wife, Colleen at the aut show on charity preview night.

And we were talking about the fact that Stabenow was now retired.

And now when I think about some of the things he said, it starts to make sense because he was talking about, yeah, she's I know she's going to do well, but what a grin this job can be and everything.

I mean, he wasn't saying in a negative way.

He's talking about the realities of going back and forth between Washington and your district and, you know, crisscrossing Michigan.

And they were talkin about the human mind not to run.

It was just a question of when I got time for what he talked about something very human.

They were talking about how excited they were with their new grandbaby and that their son lived across the country.

So those kind of reality type things, I think, start to sink in, especially coupled with what you said.

He's in the minority now.

Kamala Harris didn't win, so it's not fun.

But we talked yesterday.

I got through to him in his office in Washington and we were reminiscing when he started out in the legislature.

I said, You remember those good old days when people work together?

He said, Yeah.

He said, I absolutely miss it, but let's see what he said.

His statement was interesting by what it didn't say.

Roll the tape, please.

First, Michigan's US Senator Debbie Stabenow shocked the political world by saying she would not run for reelection.

And now ditto for the state's junior U.S. senator, Gary Peters.

With this out of the blue decision, I will therefore not seek reelection in 2026.

I'm leaving Congress, but I am not retiring, The 66 year old former state lawmaker, city councilperson and former state lottery director Gary Peters says the founding fathers wanted politicians to serve for a while and then returning to private life.

I agree.

If there were personal and private reasons for this decision, he gave no hint of shame in his four minute video announcement.

He did not mention, for example, the storming of the US Capitol, but he did referenc the current political climate, which has burned out many together.

We have been able to navigate around a tough, hyperpartisan political environment.

There will now be a feverish scramble for the Republican and Democratic partie to find somebody to succeed him.

Pundits will put Governor Whitmer's name in play although she has never expressed even a hint of wanting to be a U.S. senator and others who are looking to run for governor.

Such as Pete Buttigieg now have an unforeseen option on their table to consider.

And with control of the Senate up for grabs next time, the bad news for Democrats, they'll have a tougher time holding on to the seat with an incumbent not in the race while others jockey for his job.

The soon to be former senator looks forward to touring the twisting backroads of Michigan and experience the joy of total freedom.

Riding my Harley-Davidso motorcycle on a warm, sunny day.

Yeah, riding a Harley when you come riding with me in the summer.

I said I'm not getting on that bike with you.

I said, were you burned out?

He said, no.

He said I still got a bunch of energy.

I said to the wife and the kids lean on you.

No, it was a private decision.

It took some time, but he didn't waiver back.

And, you know, sometimes these guys and ladie go, Yeah, I'm going to lay egg.

No, I won't.

You know, when they waddled back and forth.

Right.

The part of what he's doing right is is doing it so early in the cycle, which was important for Democrats as we sa nationally, of course, with then President Joe Biden sort of waiting until the last minute and then being pushed out.

I think there's for many folks right now in DC and, you know, statewide, too who are thinking about age when it comes to being in office, maybe not overstaying.

You're welcome.

And he's doing it now to to give Democrats plenty of time and candidates who are thinking about it instead of waiting, you know, six months beforehand.

What is going to happen?

Are the Democrats going to go to him, Mr. Ballenger, and say something?

You mean like why don't you leave now?

Oh, no, that's not what I'm saying.

No, I know that's not wha you're saying.

I'm just asking.

I actually turned the page there Zoe.

Okay.

I'm sorry.

And let the governor appoint a replacement who could run on his left Do you think they'll go to him?

They might try.

I don't think he'll do it.

I mean, look, they tried the same thing with Stabenow, remember?

And it didn't work.

She said, forget it.

Stephen Breyer on the Supreme Court, they tried to get him out for a long time.

He wouldn't go.

Peters he said one of the things that was most freeing about his decision is i gives him two years unfettered and not having to worry abou reelection to get things done, He says, I got a lot of stuff I want to do here, he said.

That's one of the great things about making this announcement now and getting out with two years to go.

And he also made i sound as though he's going to be as involved in the process as he can be, that he's going to weigh in.

At what point?

I don't know.

But it doesn't sound like he's just going to go away and just let the Democrats do whatever they want, that at some point he's going to use whatever leverage he can.

Well, let me clarif two things.

One, I asked of him when they come to you pleading to get out of the race earl so an incoming can be appointed.

Okay.

He said, I will not do it.

It's not going to happen.

Right?

It's not going to happen.

Take it to the bank.

And secondly, I said would you endorse in a primary?

He will not.

He will not.

Now, he might help recruit some folks.

You can you can help somebody without helping somebody.

You know what I mean?

Absolutely right.

It's very I mean, again, it seems very much sort of the similar playbook to what happened with Debbie Stabenow and Elissa Slotkin.

Right.

That Debbie Stabenow, it was January made the announcement a very agai surprising announcement to many.

Elissa Slotkin jumped in right away.

Certainly, Debbie Stabenow did not endorse Slotkin.

Did we ever prove that the two of them talked before she decided?

No, no.

We never did.

Why don't we say we did?

Beacause we're jouranlists.

Okay.

Okay.

it's a better story?

No, you couldn't.

You certainly couldn't rule it out.

No.

And Stabenow, that was her position.

And she watched very closely.

And I think had Slotkin gotten into a real pickle in the primary she might have jumped in there.

But she ran such a smart race in the primary, Stabenow didn't have to get involved outward.

Give me names on the list of would be's, wannabes.

Oh, my gosh.

On the Democratic side, Buttigieg, Mallory, McMorrow, Garlin Gilchrist.

I mean, what i let's let's also say one thing that we haven't named yet, right?

Is the fact that this really shifts for Democrats, because originall it was just going to be one open statewide seat at the very top in terms of chief executive for governor, big story right now is what race are they going to run for all these candidates in particular?

Yeah, yeah Not Republicans and Democrats.

This is Christmas in January and you already got Mike Rogers who came within 19,000 votes of beating Slotkin saying, hey, it sounds like they want me again.

Let's jump right back in.

Let's clarify the governors statement and her statement was I' not running for the US Senate.

Is there some wiggle room in that statement?

There could be, but I don't.

She she doesn't have to run for it.

She can get appointed.

She's gonna appoint her own self?

No, No.

She could resign.

And, you know we're kind of going to the point that that happened in the late seventies.

Minnesota.

I'm not saying.

What are in your mugs this morning, Straight water.

It is happening It's happening.

I'm just saying that I'm not seeing it.

Okay?

She's never whispered in anybody's ear, that she has even the faintest interest in service.

But when she says, I'm not running, I just need to point out that there is a way to get to the US Senate without running.

Do you think that's a job that she would want more than president of the United States?

I think w I don't think she wants either.

We all maybe not.

But I think when you're a governor and you're used to that executive powe and it's a difficult transition to then go to a body in which you have to be one of many.

Her problem is they don't allow swearing in the US Senate.

You get demerits for that.

Who else on the Republican side?

Well, John James, obviously Roger's you know Eric Rinke.

Are we talking senator or Governor?

We're talking the Senate think Tudor Dixon is name is out there.

Yeah but look all these people the question is what are they going to run for governor?

That's what everybody thought was going to be the only job available.

Now it turns out there are two jobs.

And as I think you hear they have completely different skill sets.

I mean, they shouldn't be interchangeable in candidates minds, but they are.

It's a great wa of putting it, Bill.

Absolutely.

And I thin one of the other things of note for voters, for politica journalists, political watchers, the 2026 ballot is going to be as long as like a Cheesecake Factory menu.

I mean, you have bee you have the governor's office, you have Attorney general, you have state of the state.

You are the state.

You have a secretary of state.

You could tell them what you think about state to state coverage.

The secretary of state, you've got two Supreme Court seats.

You've go the entire US House delegation and you have the entire stat House, the entire state Senate.

And let's not forget the konkan.

I mean, 2016 is going to be insane.

2026, I'm living in the past.

That was insane.

Bill why don't you check her coffee.

fair.

This is going to be fascinating.

Last time the governors office and the U.S. Senate seat were opened simultaneously.

1886.

Oh, come on.

No, really, I thought Zack Gorchow of Gongwer said 1916. we're going to have to we're going have to look it up, know.

Now I'm giving Zach Gorchow a shout out like Matt Hall.

There's a few people giving Zack Gorchow a shout out.

And the public's gonna be absolutely worn out because they everybody starting earlier and earlier right now, we just finished with a very contested U.S. Senate race and we had the holiday break.

And now here we are again.

All right.

Let's call in.

The judge should see what he's got to say.

Judge, I'm sure that deprives you is one of your best ways they beat be tomorrow.

We're going to we're goin to wave the swearing in for you.

We trust that you're going to tell us the truth.

Okay, I'll try.

All right.

So this little book that you wrote, how many times, if at all, did you say to yourself or to others around you, this ain't going to work?

You mean the book or the bankruptcy?

Well, that's I retract the question your honor.

May I rephrase?

Strike that.

Yes.

Thank you.

That's the word I was looking for.

No, the content of the book.

The content of the book.

You know, I wrote it right after the bankruptcy.

Was it going to fail though.

Again the book or th bankruptcy?

The bankruptcy thing the plan.

Did you think this thi would go down?

There were a numbe of moments, Tim, when we sort of had near-death moments when the story of the grand bargain.

How many near-death moments?

Several when I couldn't get funding from the state to kickstart the plan when the story first broke, I was very concerned that it was going to scare off the foundations and some of their board members because it was very controversial any number of times.

Did you tell your wif that you thought it might fail?

No, it didn't.

You know, My wife says it's always 78 and sunny in my world.

So I was pretty optimistic.

I was pretty optimistic.

Judge, what's been the bigges reward from writing this book?

Reliving it and seeing how people respond in light of how Detroit has come back so strongly, Chuck, in the last ten years, if you think about where we were July 18th, 2013, at 4:06 p.m. when the petition was filed to where we are now.

Really, it's it's wonderful to see what's happening in these in Detroit.

The kids are coming back, the lights are on.

Investment is booming in Detroit, almost like nowhere else.

Detroit is viewed as the comeback city.

So, you know, it's very gratifying and rewarding to see what's happened ten years later.

Judge and reliving that.

There were a lot of heroes in this entire undertaking.

There were a lot of heroes in this entire undertaking.

But who was the hero of heroes in your mind?

Rick Snyder, The governor.

The governor.

It took remarkable courage, vision, tenacity and a certain amount of leap of faith to do this.

There was no politica at least I'm not a politician, but there was no politica advantage for him, a Republican from the west side of the state to try to fix Detroit.

And his predecessors had largely kicked it down the road, kept Detroi and its problems down the road, swept it under the rug, and Rick took it.

And in fact, Bill, when I met with him after he was elected, but before he took office, I think, you know, he was an old friend of mine.

He actually worked in my 198 failed congressional campaign, which proves I'm not a politician.

But I asked him, now that you've been elected, Rick, what's on your what's on your agenda?

And the first thing he said was Detroit.

Yeah.

Judge, I'm curious.

I mean, the takeaway after reading the book and just thinking now ten years on from the emergence is this sort of almost once in a lifetime moment, right, where all the ingredients philanthropy, lawmakers sort of came together to do a really big thing.

It's something we don't see often.

Took a little pushing.

It took a little pushing, Absolutely.

And some drawings on napkins as well.

But I'm curious in your mind, as you look at the state of Michigan right now, what is the next thing?

Right.

If there was you had a magic wand where you said, everyone come together, what's the next thing that should be fixed jointly, bipartisanly in the state?

You know Zoe, I'm not an expert at this, but it seems one of the more heartbreaking things that I see when I follow stories is the state of education.

K-through-12 in Michigan.

And every politician who comes into office says they're going to fix it.

And believe me, I know it's not easy.

It's not something you can find a grand bargain for.

But if there's one underlying problem that the state is facing, it's our education system.

Judge, you said you're not a politician, but in your book you wrote she was long on glitz but short on guts.

That was a gratuitous shot at the former governor, Jennifer Granholm.

Why did you feel the need to do that?

First of all, I have a lot of admiration and respect for Governor Granholm.

Yeah, no guts, but lots of glitz.

Well, you know, I don't think she did what Rick Snyder did, which is to g after the underlying problems.

Do you think John Engler would have done that?

John Engler i a politician, was a politician, and he didn't se any political payoff in Detroit.

Do you think any Democrati governor would have done that, given the Democratic makeup of the city of Detroit?

Could they have survived?

You know they didn't.

Not in the way Rick Snyder did.

They certainly were programmatic and provided funding on and off through revenue sharing and other things.

But they didn't go after it the way Rick Snyder did.

Root and branch, starting at the beginning, the underlying infrastructure problems of the city, both the financial infrastructure and the quality of life infrastructure.

You know people think about a bankruptcy and most bankruptcies are this is just fixing the financial side of it.

But in Detroit, we did more than that.

We fixed not only the financial piece of it, but we also fixed to a great extent the quality of life issues.

Police and fire service has dramatically improved.

In 2013, the the response to emergenc police calls was over an hour.

It's now under 11 minutes, which is under.

Don't the Republicans have some ownership of Detroit's problems?

Because the first gentleman that you worked for in our town was Bill Milliken.

You were an intern.

He and Coleman Young put together the package of cultural, And when the Republicans took actual, you know, what they did, they dismantled it.

They took all the money away.

So don't the R's hold some accountability o the shape that Detroit was in.

I wasn't trying to imply that they didn't.

Chuck, ask me about Democrats.

Certainly the Republicans do.

I mean, I think the Republican response before Rick, had been largely to ignore the problems in Detroit.

Judge, we're talking on a statewide basis.

We're talking about Democrats and we're talking about Republicans.

Let's talk about an independent.

And so for the past ten years, the mayor of the city of Detroit, I thought we're going to talk about my book just did.

well, I mean.

I guess so let me go back to the book, Talk a little bit about the role that you see post-bankruptcy Mike Duggan playing in Detroit, the future of Detroit, and what you make of his running for governor as an independent.

You know, I think about it this way, Zoe.

During the bankruptcy, we provided the foundation and the scaffolding for the city, and then Mike became mayor and he took it and he just took it to new levels.

And it's the fact that Detroit is now doing so well is a combination of bot the bankruptcy of the foundation and infrastructure we provided and Mike Duggan's remarkable vision and tenacity in fixing problems coming up with new ideas.

He's been he's been quite remarkable, Could he have been as successful over the last decade or so If the grand bargain had not happened, I think it would have been much harder for hi because had he come into office during the bankruptc without the grand bargain money, which was, you know, $830 million, and with that $830 million, we took that and bought a ten year holiday from the city's making pension contributions to the city for ten years, didn't have to make pension contributions.

And we were able to we were able to leverage that to get sort of agreement and deals with other creditors.

And then the mayor was able to use it for other things.

So he had that.

But in addition to that, had he come in and had there not been a resolution of the bankruptcy, he would have he would have been a trench warfare with his unions, who had no collective bargaining agreements during and for many years before the bankruptcy, had not had collective bargaining agreements, he would have been at war with his lenders, the bond bond issuers and the and their insurers.

He would have been at war with the retirees.

Pensio contributions had not been made for several month of the filing of the bankruptcy.

So all of these interests would not have been resolved.

And I think another person who we should talk about as Kevyn Orr, Kevyn Orr did a terrific jo of all of us in the bankruptcy.

Yeah the emergency emergency manager.

Yeah.

Of all of us in the bankruptcy, Kevyn had the hardest job.

He not only had to deal with me and Judge Rhodes, but he had to run the city.

He had to run a bankrupt City.

Judge Mike Duggan has said that he' going to run as an independent for governor, even though he's had a long Democratic background Would Michiganders be better serve if he doesn't have to just run as an independen and not have to really run until the general if he had a spirited independent primary and had to run against someone, say, like a Peter Meijer, who does not fit well into the current Republican Party.

That's a great question, Chuck, and one I haven't thought about.

The only thing I'll say is that I would never count Mike Duggan out.

Mike is brilliant and mean that in the highest sense.

He's a brilliant politician, a brilliant tactician, brilliant strategist, but also a visionary in terms of policy and execution on the policy.

I'd never count Mike out.

I mean, who ever thought that in the city of Detroit, 87% African-American, that he could run after being kicked off the ballot, that he could run, win a primary and win a general election overwhelmingly against candidate?

Yeah, against against a agains a very popular African-American Judge,what did you think of the pardons of the January six folks?

I thought they were atrocious.

They were what?

Atrocious.

Why?

I believe in the rule of law.

I think it violates the rule of law.

We have a system of pardons in our country.

There's there's an exhaustive process for recommending pardons to the president.

He didn't go through any of those.

And if he had, I'm pretty confident that the recommendations would have been uniformly, uniformly against it.

And the implications of that vis a vis the conduct of people now who know they could get pardoned if they do something tha you would perceive to be wrong, that for sure, but also the rule of law?

I believe in the rule of law.

These folks, without even getting into the underlying conduct, these folks went through the justice system.

Many of them pled guilty.

They went through the justice system.

They were adjudicated.

They were either found guilty by jury trial under a constitutio or they were they pled guilty.

And to simply have the president and one broad stroke pardon all of them, I think undermines the very tenets of our rule of law.

Going back to the grand bargain.

How close was the Detroit Institute of Art to being liquidated?

Well, that's a great question, Bill.

I think it was very close because it was the only asset the city had, The only asset of any size.

And, you know, I was the mediator.

My job was to get deals, to get deals with creditors.

To get deals with creditors, you have to either have money or assets that can be monetized.

And the cupboard was pretty bare when I read Kevyn Orr's proposal for creditors, proposal for what was the proposal for creditors?

Yeah, he had a whole section on what the debt structure was, what the wha the quality of life issues were.

And the section on assets was about a page and a half.

Judge, let's take a quick recess.

You'll come back for overtime.

Sure.

You haven't had enough yet.

I guess that means I did okay, Right, Coach, If you'll pardon the expression, the jury's still out.

wkar.org overtime with a good judge.

Production of off the record is made possible in par by bellwether public relations.

A full servic strategic communications agency partnering with clients through public relations, digital marketing and issue advocacy.

Learn more at bellwetherpr.com.

For more off the record, visit wkar.org Michigan public television stations have contributed to the production costs of off the record.