>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON," AS COVID CASES SURGE, HOLIDAY SPIKES STILL AHEAD, AND SPIKES STILL AHEAD, AND A NEW HIGHLY CONTAGIOUS VARIANT SPREADING FAST, THERE ARE A LOT OF QUESTIONS ABOUT WHAT'S GOING WRONG WITH THE SLOW VACCINE ROLLOUT AND THE BEST PLAN TO FIX IT.

THE DEAN OF BROWN SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH, DR. ASHISH JHA, JOINS ME ON THAT.

AND TRUMP'S COUP ATTEMPT TAKES A NEW TURN IN A CALL TO GEORGIA'S SECRETARY OF STATE CAUGHT ON TAPE.

SHOULD WE BE WORRIED AS ALLIES MIGHT HAVE EVEN MORE PLANNED?

I'LL TALK TO RETIRED FEDERAL JUDGE NANCY GERTNER, AND CO-FOUNDER OF THE LINCOLN PROJECT, JENNIFER HORN.

IT'S KNOWN AS "OPERATION WARPED SPEED," BUT IN RECENT WEEKS, THE FEDERAL PROGRAM MANAGING THE CORONAVIRUS VACCINE ROLLOUT HAS BEEN ANYTHING BUT.

SO FAR JUST OVER 4.5 IS MILLION AMERICANS HAVE GOTTEN THEIR FIRST OF TWO VACCINE DOSES.

IT IS LESS THAN A QUARTER OF THE 20 MILLION THE GOVERNMENT HAD PREDICTED BY THE END OF 2020.

AND ORGANIZATIONAL FAILURES HAVE LED TO CONFUSION, HOURS-LONG LINES IN SOME AREAS, AND AN ADDED STRAIN ON HEALTH CARE WORKERS WHO TRYING TO JUGGLE VACCINE ADMINISTRATION.

WHILE "OPERATION WARPED SPEED'S" SCIENTIFIC ADVISOR ADMITTED THERE HAVE BEEN DELAYS, HE ARGUED THE PROBLEMS LARGELY LIE WITH THE STATES.

>> WE AGREE THERE IS A LAG.

WE WILL WORK WITH THE STATES.

WE NEED SPECIFIC REQUESTS FOR HELP.

>> Braude: THE LATEST C.D.C.

DATA SHOWS ONLY FOUR STATES HAVE ADS ADMINISTERED HALF OF THE DOSES.

IT MEANS ONLY AROUND 116,000 PEOPLE HERE HAVE GOTTEN THEIR FIRST SHOTS.

TODAY GOVERNOR CHARLIE BAKER ANNOUNCED THE STATE IS EXPANDING THE POOL OF PEOPLE TO GET THE VACCINE TO INCLUDE FIRST RESPONDERS.

AND HE MOVED PEOPLE OVER THE AGE OF 75 UP HIGHER ON THE PRIORITY LIST, BUT AT THIS POINT, THERE ARE STILL A FEW WEEKS AWAY.

IT IS UP 9% FROM 2%, AND BAKER URGED PEOPLE TO TAKE PRECAUTIONS SERIOUSLY.

>> Governor: SINCE THANKSGIVING, THE AVERAGE AGE OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE BEING HOSPITALIZED HAS INCREASED DRAMATICALLY.

THAT HAS REAL CONSEQUENCES WITH RESPECT TO LIFE AND DEATH.

>> Braude: WHICH WE SEEN FAR TOO MUCH OF ALREADY.

SO WITH MORE THAN 20 MILLION COVID CASES AND 350,000 DEATHS ALREADY RECORDED ACROSS THE U.S., AND NOW A NEW CORONAVIRUS VARIANT THAT IS SPREADING FASTER THAN EVER, PROMPTED A LOCKDOWN IN THE U.K., SOME ARE PRESSING TO TAKE A CLOSER LOOK AT HOW WE'RE DISTRIBUTING VACCINES.

WITH PROPOSALS RANGING FROM GIVING PEOPLE HALF DOSES TO DELAYING THE SECOND DOSE FOR A PERIOD OF TIME TO GIVE MORE PEOPLE SOME LEVEL OF IMMUNITY.

I'M JOINED BY DR. ASHISH JHA, WHO RECENTLY MADE THE CASE FOR SECOND-DOSE DELAYS IN A "WASHINGTON POST" OP-ED HE CO-AUTHORED.

HAPPY NEW YEAR.

GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> HAPPY NEW YEAR.

GOOD TO BE BACK.

>> Braude: WHAT EXPLAINS FOR THE SLOW VACCINATION RATE?

>> IT IS A MINDSET.

IT IS A MINDSET THAT BEGINS WITH THE IDEA THAT WE'RE GOING TO LET THE STATES FIGURE ALL OF THIS STUFF OUT ON THEIR OWN.

I THINK THE FOLKS RUNNING "OPERATION WARPED SPEED" ARE GOOD PEOPLE, WHO ARE CARING.

IT IS HARD FOR ME TO KNOW WHAT THE PRESIDENT'S PRIORITIES ARE, BUT I THINK THE "OPERATION WARPED SPEED" FOLKS REALLY DO CARE ABOUT THIS.

THE CHALLENGE IS THAT THE MISSION THAT THEY HAVE BEEN GIVEN IS GET THE VACCINE TO STATES, NOT NECESSARILY GET VACCINES INTO PEOPLE'S ARMS.

AND THE PROBLEM IS STATES HAVE BEEN MANAGING THIS PANDEMIC MORE OR LESS ON THEIR OWN, WITH VERY LITTLE FEDERAL HELPED, AND THEY'RE PRETTY STRETCHED.

AND ASKING THEM TO TAKE ON THE VACCINE ROLLOUT WITHOUT THE KIND OF HELP THEY NEED IS A REAL CHALLENGE.

UNTIL A WEEK AGO, THEY DIDN'T EVEN HAVE THE FUNDING.

BUT JUST A SET OF RESOURCES THAT ARE NECESSARY FOR THE STATES THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAS NOT PROVIDED.

THAT'S WHY WE ARE WHERE WE ARE.

>> Braude: WE'RE ROUGHLY 1% -- A LITTLE OVER 1% IN TERMS OF VACCINATION, AND ISRAEL IS SOMEWHERE IN THE 10% TO 12% RANGE.

I'M AFRAID YOU'RE GOING TO TELL ME, ARE THERE LESSONS TO BE THE LEARNED, THAT WE'RE TALKING APPLES AND ORANGES.

IS THERE SOMETHING THEY'RE DOING THAT WE COULD BE DOING?

>> Doctor: ABSOLUTELY.

BUT EVERY COUNTRY IS DIFFERENT.

BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN WE CAN NEVER LEARN LESSONS FROM ANYBODY ELSE.

THE LESSON FROM ISRAEL IS IT TAKES FOCUS, A REAL PLANNING, AND IT TAKES REALLY GOOD EXECUTION.

ALL THINGS I THINK THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT IS COMPLETELY CABLE OF, CAPABLE OF, BUT IT HAS TO PRIORITIZE GETTING THESE THINGS OUT.

AND IT'S NOT LIKE WE DIDN'T KNOW VACCINES WERE COMING.

LITERALLY FOR ABOUT THREE MONTHS, WE KNEW THEY WERE GOING TO ARRIVE IN EARLY TO MID-DECEMBER.

WE SHOULD HAVE WORKED OUT ALL OF THE KINKS, PLAYED OUT ALL OF THE SCENARIOS, AND PRACTICED GETTING THESE VACCINE SITES UP AND RUNNING AND THEN AS SOON AS THE VACCINE ARRIVED, STARTED GETTING THEM IN PEOPLE'S ARMS.

>> Braude: WE WILL HAVE THAT NEW GOVERNMENT IN ABOUT 15 DAYS, AND JOE BIDEN WILL HAVE ABOUT $ $5 BILLION.

BUT HE HAS A MUCH MORE CONTAGIOUS VARIANT THAT I KNOW YOU'RE CONCERNED ABOUT -- HOW FIXABLE IS THIS BY BIDEN?

DRMPLET I THINK>> Doctor: I BELIEVE A FOCUSED LEADERSHIP WILL MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

BUT I'M WORRIED IT WILL TAKE A WHILE.

THE EXPECTATIONS THAT SOMEHOW ON THE AFTERNOON OF JANUARY 20th, THINGS WILL TURN AROUND -- THINGS WILL BE GETTING WORSE OVER THE NEXT SEVERAL WEEKS.

THE VARIANT, I'M VERY CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT IT MEANS FOR OUR COUNTRY, IN TERMS OF INFECTIONS AND HOSPITALIZATIONS.

IT WILL TAKE THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION MANY, MANY WEEKS TO REALLY IMPLEMENT THE POLICY THAT BEGINS TO HAVE A PAYOFF.

>> Braude: BIDEN'S BUMPER STICKER LINE -- I DON'T MEAN TO DISPARAGE IT, BUT IT IS 100 MILLION VACCINATIONS IN 100 DAYS.

THE DEBATE I'VE HEARD IS CAN HE GET TO THAT NUMBER?

MY RESPONSE IS, GETTING TO THAT NUMBER IS NOT ENOUGH.

I WAS READING SOMETHING YOU WROTE, OR MAYBE IT WAS AN INTERVIEW YOU DID, AND YOU SAID WE NEED ROUGHLY 75% IMMUNE FOR THIS HERD IMMUNITY THAT WE ALL HEARD ABOUT.

SO THAT'S, WHAT, 240 MILLION, 2 R50 250 MILLION, IF THERE ARE 100 MILLION DOSES, THAT'S 53MILLION PEOPLE IN THREE MONTHS.

WE'RE TALKING A YEAR PLUS.

AM I WRONG ABOUT THAT?

>> Doctor: YOU'RE NOT WRONG ABOUT THAT.

REMEMBER, WE'RE DOING A COUPLE HUNDRED THOUSAND A DAY RIGHT NOW.

SO A MILLION IS A STEP UP.

I LIKE HIS TARGET, AND I THINK HE NEEDS TO BE MORE AMBITIOUS YET FOR THE REASONS YOU'VE OUTLINED.

I THINK WE NEED TO BE DOING ABOUT THREE MILLION A DAY.

CAN WE DO IT?

ABSOLUTELY WE CAN DO IT.

WE'RE A BIG COUNTRY WITH A LOT OF RESOURCES.

IF I WERE ADVISING PRESIDENT-ELECT BIDEN, I WOULD SAY YOU HAVE TO GO EVEN BIGGER TO GET OUR COUNTRY BACK ON ITS FEET.

>> Braude: YOU HAD A SUGGESTION, OR AT LEAST OPEN TO DISCUSSION IN THE "WASHINGTON POST," ABOUT ONE WAY TO INCREASE THAT NUMBER DRAMATICALLY.

YOU PROPOSED A ONE DOSE FOR NOW NOTION.

AND YOU SEEM TO BE CONFIDENT ABOUT THE PROTECTION BUT LESS CONFIDENT ABOUT THE DURATION OF THE PROTECTION.

COULD YOU FLESH THAT OUT A LITTLE BIT?

>> Doctor: ABSOLUTELY.

LET ME BE VERY CLEAR THAT I DEFINITELY BELIEVE IN TWO DOSES.

BUT RIGHT NOW THE PLAN IS BOTH DOSES NEED TO GO IN WITHIN 28 DAYS, AND BECAUSE OF THAT, WHAT WE'RE DOING IS WE'RE KEEPING MORE THAN HALF OF THE DOSES WE HAVE PRODUCED IN A FREEZER AND NOT GIVING IT TO STATES, AND SAYING WE'LL SEND IT TO YOU WHEN YOU'RE READY FOR THE SECOND DOSE.

MY APPROACH AND OTHERS IS, LET'S TAKE ALL OF THE DOSES AND GET THEM OUT.

GET THEM INTO PEOPLE'S ARMS AND LET THE IMMUNITY START WORKING.

AND AS NEW DOSES COME OFF THE PRODUCTION LINE, VACCINATE THEM WITH THE SECOND DOSE.

SOME MAZE GET MAY GET IT IN TWO WEEKS, AND SOME MAY HAVE TO WAIT SIX WEEKS.

SOME SAY, HEY, THAT'S NOT WHAT WE STUDIED IN THE CLINCLINICAL TRIALS.

BUT YOU CAN SEE 85%, 90% EFFICACY AFTER ONE DOSE OF THE MODERNA VACCINE OUT TO 28DAYS.

THERE IS NO REASON TO BELIEVE IT WILL PLUMMET BY DAY 35 OR 32.

THE UP SIDE IS WE'LL BE ABLE TO VACCINATE TWICE AS MANY PEOPLE AND I THINK IS SAVE AN ENORMOUS NUMBER OF LIVES.

>> Braude: I PLAYED THE TAPES FROM SLAOUI, FROM "OPERATION WARPED SPEED," AND HE WAS ON A TALK SHOW AND HE SAID HE DIDN'T BELIEVE THE DATA WAS AS CONVINCING AS YOU APPEAR TO BELIEVE, AND HE PROPOSED THAT VARIATION ON A THEME.

HERE HE IS.

>> Doctor: WE KNOW FOR THE MODERNA VACCINE, GIVING HALF A DOSE TO PEOPLE BETWEEN THE AGE OF 18 AND 55, WE KNOW IT INDUCES IDENTICAL IMMUNE RESPONSE, AND, THEREFORE, WE ARE IN DISCUSSION WITH MODERNA AND WITH THE F.D.A., AND, OF COURSE, ULTIMATELY IT WILL BE AN F.D.A.

DECISION, TO ACCELERATE INJECTING HALF THE VOLUME.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW WHAT WORRIES ME ABOUT ALL OF THIS, EVEN IF SLAOUI AND YOU, DOCTOR, ARE RIGHT -- AND I KNOW YOU'RE CONCERNED ABOUT THIS, TOO -- WE HAVE A VACCINE-HESITANT NATION.

YOU AND I DISCUSSED A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO, HEALTH CARE WORKERS, WHETHER THEY SHOULD BE MANDATED TO GET VACCINES.

YOU'VE READ THESE STORIES OUT OF OHIO, ALL OVER THE COUNTRY, WHERE MAJORITIES OF HEALTH CARE WORKERS ARE JUST SAYING NO, THEY'RE NOT GOING TO DO IT.

THIS FEEDS -- THIS LATE IN THE PROCESS -- IT SEEMS TO ME, THE NOTION OF A SINGLE DOSE OR A HALF DOSE, EVEN IF IT IS A BRILLIANT INTERIM SOLUTION TO THE PROBLEM, DOESN'T IT FEED THE DOUBTS OF EVEN PEOPLE OF GOOD FAITH?

WHY WEREN'T THESE ISSUES RAISED BY LEADERS ON THIS ISSUE PRIOR TO VACCINE MANUFACTURING?

DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

>> Doctor: I DO.

>> Braude: I'M CONCERNED -- >> Doctor: I AM, TOO, AND I HEAR YOU.

I THINK THAT IS AN IMPORTANT POINT.

WE RAISED THAT IN THE OP-ED IN THE "WASHINGTON POST."

>> Braude: I KNOW YOU DID.

>> Doctor: THE WAY I HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT THIS IS THROUGHOUT THIS ENTIRE PANDEMIC THERE HAS BEEN THIS CONVERSATION THAT PUBLIC HEALTH AND SCIENCE IS SOMETHING THAT ISN'T STATIC, AND WE WORK THROUGH IT -- YOU KNOW, THE SCIENCE ON MASKS CHANGED AND WE CHANGED OUR RECOMMENDATIONS.

AND PEOPLE HAVE SAID, ISN'T THIS JUST GOING TO CAUSE MORE WHIPLASH?

AND MY APPROACH IS SPEAK OPENLY AND PLAINLY WITH THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, TELL THEM WHAT YOU KNOW, AND IF YOU THINK WE SHOULD CHANGE PLANS, TELL THEM WHAT YOU'RE THINKING ABOUT AND WHAT THE UPSIDES AND DOWN SIERDZ.

DOWNSIDES.

AND IN MY EXPERIENCE, PEOPLE ARE PRETTY REASONABLE.

THE DOWNSIDE OF NOT CHANGING OUR PLAN AT ALL, STICKING WITH THE TWO DOSES, 28 DAYS APART, WE'RE LOOKING AT PROBABLY 120,000, 140,000 MORE DEATHS BEFORE THE END OF FEBRUARY.

THAT'S KIND OF WHAT WE'RE LOOKING AT.

AND THOSE NUMBERS WILL CONTINUE INTO MARCH.

THE MOST HIGH-RISK PEOPLE WILL NOT GET VAX VACCINATED BEFORE MARCH.

I FIND THAT UNACCEPTABLE.

I'M NOT SUGGESTING THAT MAKING CHANGES HAS NO COST, I'M SAYING THAT THE STATUS QUO HAS A VERY, VERY HIGH COST.

MY TAKE IS WE CAN EDUCATE MOST PEOPLE AND HELP THEM UNDERSTAND WHAT IS BEING PROPOSED IS REASONABLE, GROUNDED IN SCIENCE.

AND, YOU KNOW, USE THAT SORT OF OPENNESS AND TRANSPARENCY TO BRING PEOPLE ALONG.

>> Braude: LAST THING, DOCTOR, IF I CAN, YOU MENTIONED DEATHS.

I BELIEVE MY NUMBERS ARE RIGHT, SOMEWHERE IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD OF 80% OF THE DEATHS HAVE BEEN PEOPLE OVER 65 YEARS OLD.

YOU'RE NODDING, SO I ASSUME I GOT THAT RIGHT.

PULLING FROM THE FILE OF EVEN A BROKEN CLOCK IS RIGHT TWICE A DAY, PEOPLE LIKE RON DeSANTIS HAVE DECIDED TO MOVE TO THE TOP OF THE LIST OLDER PEOPLE, ABOVE PEOPLE WHO ARE PROVIDING HEALTH CARE DIRECTLY ON.

IF THAT'S WHERE THE DEATHS ARE, WHY ISN'T THAT THE RIGHT SOLUTION?

QUICKLY, IF YOU CAN.

>> Doctor: I'VE COME TO BELIEVE IT PROBABLY IS THE RIGHT SOLUTION.

>> Braude: REALLY?

>> Doctor: I THINK A LOT OF COMPLEX POLICY-MAKING ON WHO GOES FIRST AND SECOND WILL PROBABLY SLOW US DOWN.

I'M INCREASINGLY COMING TO THE OPINION WE'VE GOT TO GET ESPECIALLY OUR ELDERLY VACCINATED IMMEDIATELY.

PEOPLE OVER 75, AND THEN OVER 65, AND THEN OVER 55.

AND THEN AFTER THAT, WE HAVE MANY MORE OPTIONS.

BUT WE'VE GOT TO MOVE TOWARDS AN AGE-BASED APPROACH BECAUSE THAT'S PROBABLY THE MOST EFFICIENT AND IT WILL CERTAINLY SAVE THE MOST NUMBER OF LIVES.

AND I THINK IT IS THE MOST EQUITABLE BECAUSE IF WE MAKE THE SYSTEM OVERLY COMPLEX, THE PEOPLE WHO WILL GAIN ARE NOT THE POOR, THE PEOPLE OF COLOR.

THEY'RE THE WELL-CONNECTED, WEALTHY PEOPLE WHO WILL FIGURE OUT HOW TO CLAIM IT.

AND I'M WORRIED ABOUT THAT AS MUCH AS ANYTHING ELSE.

>> Braude: THANK YOU FOR YOUR WORK AND FOR YOUR TIME.

HAPPY NEW YEAR.

THANK YOU.

>> Doctor: THANK YOU.

>> Braude: TRUMP'S LONG CONTRIBUTION TO ADDRESSING THE PANDEMIC OVER THE LAST FEW DAYS WAS A TWEET CALLING THE U.S. COVID-19 CASE COUNT, QUOTE, "FAR EXAGGERATED."

HE HAS SPENT PLENTY OF TIME ON HIS EFFORTS TO OVERTURN THE ELECTION, WHICH INCLUDED AN HOUR-LONG LEAKED PHONE CALL IN WHICH THE PRESIDENT WAS RECORDED DEMANDING GEORGIA SECRETARY OF STATE BRAD RAFFENSPERGER FIND THE VOTES NEEDED TO FLIP THE STATE.

>> THE PEOPLE OF GEORGIA ARE ANGRY.

AND THE PEOPLE OF THE COUNTRY ARE ANGRY.

THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH SAYING THAT YOU'VE RECALCULATED.

LOOK, ALL I WANT TO DO IS THIS: I JUST WANT TO FIND 11,780 VOTES, WHICH IS ONE MORE THAN WE HAVE, BECAUSE WE WON THE STATE.

>> Braude: THE ONLY PROBLEMS BEING HE DIDN'T AND THOSE VOTES DON'T EXIST.

BUT THAT IS NOT STOPPING AT LEAST A DOZEN CURRENT AND INCOMING REPUBLICAN SENATORS AND HOUSE MEMBERS WHO PLAN ON FORMERLY OBJECTING TO THE COLLEGE ELECTORAL VOTE.

THE PHONE CALLS SHOWS HOW FAR TRUMP AND HIS ALLIES ARE WILLING TO GO TO OVERTURN THE RESULTS OF THE ELECTION.

AND SOME ARE AFRAID HE MAY GO EVEN FURTHER.

WARNING, QUOTE, "EFFORTS TO IS INVOLVE THE U.S. ARMED FORCES IN RESOLVING THE ELECTION DISPUTES WOULD TAKE US INTO DANGEROUS, UNLAWFUL, AND UNCONSTITUTIONAL TERRITORY."

JOINING ME TO DISCUSS THIS ARE RETIRED FEDERAL JUDGE NANCY GERTNER AND JENNIFER HORN, WHO IS FORMER CHAIR OF THE NEW HAMPSHIRE REPUBLICAN PARTY AND ONE OF THE CO-FOUNDERS OF THE LINCOLN PROJECT, FOUNDED BY FORMER REPUBLICANS AND REPUBLICANS, WORKING TO DEFEAT TRUMPISM IN THE G.O.P.

THANK YOU BOTH FOR JOINING ME.

>> GREAT TO BE HERE.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Braude: JUDGE GERTNER, DID THE PRESIDENT BREAK ANY STATE OR FEDERAL LAWS THE DAY BEFORE IN THAT CALL?

>> I HAVE A LIST.

SHOULD WE START WITH THE LITTLE ONES?

THERE IS A GEORGIA STATUTE -- A STATE STATUTE -- FOR INTERFERENCE WITH THE ELECTION WITH A COUNTING OF VOTES.

SO THAT IS ATTEMPTED INTERFERENCE.

THERE IS A FEDERAL VOTING RIGHTS ACT, WHICH HAS CRIMINAL PENALTIES FOR THE SAME KIND OF ACTIVITY.

THEN THERE IS BORDER LINE EXTORTION, A FEDERAL AND STATE CRIME, BECAUSE HE IS THREATENING RAFFENSPERGER WITH CRIMINAL PROSECUTION LEST HE DO WHAT HE WANTS TO DO.

THERE IS NO QUESTION THAT PARTICULARLY THE VOTING RIGHTS ISSUES, FEDERAL AND STATE, HE HAS ATTEMPTED TO INTERFERE WITH NO BASIS.

SO, YES -- >> Braude: IF THERE WAS A BENCH TRIAL, AND YOU WERE THE JUDGE, WOULD YOU FIND HIM GUILTY?

>> YES.

>> Braude: OKAY.

JENNIFER -- >> CERTAINLY THE ELECTORAL STUFF.

THREATENING A CRIMINAL PROSECUTION, A LITTLE MORE DICEY BECAUSE HE DOESN'T SAY IT DIRECTLY.

HE SAYS, YOU KNOW, IT WOULD BE A CRIMINAL OFFENSE.

BUT IT IS A BLATENT EFFORT TO INTERFERE WITH AN ELECTION.

>> Braude: JENNIFER, LIST EVERY ELECTED REPUBLICAN OFFICIAL WHO SAID THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS.

TAKE FIVE SECONDS.

>> I DON'T NEED FIVE SECONDS, BECAUSE THERE HASN'T BEEN A SINGLE ONE.

>> Braude: WHOA, WHOA, THAT'S NOT FAIR.

PEOPLE LIKE LIZ CHENEY, WHO IS A RANKING REPUBLICAN LEADER IN THE HOUSE, ACTUALLY HAS.

>> AND MITT ROMNEY, WHO HAS BEEN CONSISTENTLY AS PRINC PELLED ASASASPRINCIPLED AS WE COULD HOPE.

THIS IS THE MOST OUTRAGEOUS THING THIS PRESIDENT HAS DONE SINCE ELECTION DAY, AND OTHER THAN THAT, THERE IS SILENCE FROM THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

NO OUTRAGE.

NO CALLS FOR IMPEACHMENT, NO CALL FOR REPERCUSSIONS OF ANY KIND.

NOT EVEN ONE OF THOSE 12SENATORS HAS COME FORWARD TO SAY THIS IS TOO MUCH FOR ME.

I'M GOING TO RESCIND MY NAME FROM THIS LIST OF PEOPLE WHO ARE GOING TO VOTE TO TRY TO OVERTURN THE OUTCOME OF A FAIR AND HONEST ELECTION.

>> Braude: I WANT TO GET BACK TO THE 12 SENATORS IN A MINUTE.

HE SAYS THIS, WHY WOULD PEOPLE EVEN BOTHER TO VOTE IN THE SENATE RACE ON TUESDAY, THE THING IS SO CORRUPT.

THEY ALL HATE EVERYBODY.

HE SAYS THE GOVERNOR, REPUBLICAN LIEUTENANT LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR AND STATE REPUBLICANS ARE ALL MORONS, AND HE IS A SCHMUCK FOR SUPPORTING THE GOVERNOR THERE.

WHAT IMPACT WILL THIS HAVE ON ELECTION DAY TOMORROW IN GEORGIA?

>> I CAN'T SAY FOR SURE IT WILL OR WON'T HAVE ANY IMPACT FOR SURE.

WE KNOW THERE IS EARLY VOTING, AND REPUBLICANS WHO ARE GOING TO VOTE WILL TURN OUT MORE LIKELY ON ELECTION DAY.

BUT, FRANKLY, DONALD TRUMP HAS NEVER BEEN LOYAL TO THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

IF, IN FACT, THE REPUBLICANS LOSE TOMORROW, MAYBE THIS WILL BE THE BEGINNING OF THEM PAYING THE PRICE FOR HAVING LITERALLY SOLD IS THEIR SOULS TO THE MOST CORRUPT, DISRUPTIVE, CROOKED MAN WHO HAS SAT IN THE WHITE HOUSE CERTAINLY IN MY LIFETIME.

IT IS TIME FOR THE REPUBLICANS TO PAY A PRICE.

THIS MIGHT JUST BE THE BEGINNING OF IT.

>> Braude: JUDGE GERTNER, I WANT TO TALK TO YOU WHETHER THE PRESIDENT WILL PAY A PRICE.

IT SEEMS THERE IS A POLITICAL FAILURE, A SYSTEMS FAILURE, A CONSTITUTION FAILURE.

HERE IS CARL BERNSSTEIN ON CNN TODAY.

>> WE ARE LISTENING IN REALTIME TO THE PRESIDENT PROPOSE THERE BE A CONSPIRACY TO STEAL THE ELECTION FOR THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

IT IS TIME FOR THE REPUBLICAN LEADERSHIP AND THE DEMOCRATIC LEADERSHIP OF THE SENATE AND THE HOUSE TO DEMAND THAT THIS PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES RESIGN IMMEDIATELY.

>> Braude: THAT IS THE ONLY REMEDY.

FIRST OF ALL, THAT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN, BUT THAT IS THE OWN REMEDY, JUDGE GERTNER, IS IT NOT, A CALL FOR RESIGNATION?

>> THAT'S THE ONLY IMMEDIATE REMEDY, ALTHOUGH HE WILL NEVER DO THAT.

I ALWAYS HAD A THEORY HE WOULD DO THAT THE DAY BEFORE THE INAUGURATION OF BIDEN, BECAUSE THAT WOULD ENABLE PENCE TO GIVE HIM A PARDON.

>> Braude: A PARDON, OKAY.

THERE IS A COUP LEADER, BUT TO LEAD A COUP, YOU NEED TROOPS.

HERE IS THE COMMANDER OF THE TRUMP 12, THE 12 SENATORS THAT YOU TALKED ABOUT, TED CRUZ.

>> I THINK EVERYONE NEEDS TO CALM DOWN.

I THINK WE NEED TO TONE DOWN THE RHETORIC.

THIS IS LIKE A TINDER BOX AND THROWING LIT MATCHES INTO IT.

I THINK THE KIND OF HYPERBOLE WE'RE SEEING, THE KIND OF ANGRY LANGUAGE, LOOK, THAT'S NOT HELPFUL.

>> Braude: IT SEEMS TO ME AS A CITIZEN OF THIS COUNTRY, JENNIFER, THE ONLY THING WORSE THAN A CORRUPT, SERIOUSLY MENTALLY ILL PRESIDENT IS A CONSTITUENCY IN HIS OWN PARTY THAT NOT ONLY TOLERATE THE BEHAVIOR BUT CELEBRATE HIM.

IS IT AS SIMPLE AS WHAT MITT ROMNEY SAID, AMBITION ECLIPSING PRINCIPLE?

I KNOW IT IS A TIRED QUESTION AT THIS STAGE, BUT WHAT EXPLAINS IT?

>> I CAN'T THINK OF ANYTHING ELSE THAT WOULD EXPLAIN IT.

UNLESS THESE 12 WANT TO JUST EMBRACE THE IDEA THEY ARE AS CORRUPT AND AS UNAMERICAN AND AS ANTI-DEMOCRACY AS DONALD TRUMP IS.

IT IS OUTRAGEOUSLY HYPOCRITICAL TO HEAR TED CRUZ TALK ABOUT CALMING THE LANGUAGE AND LIGHTING THE MATCH.

THESE 140 IN THE HOUSE AND THE 12 IN THE SENATE, THEY ARE AS CLOSE TO ARSONISTS AS IT COMES.

THEY ARE TRYING TO BURN DOWN THE AMERICAN DEMOCRACY.

SO FOR TED CRUZ TO SIT THERE AND TRY TO REPRIMAND US AND TELL US TO TONE IT DOWN, HE HAS GOT TO BE KIDDING ME.

>> LET ME SAY SOMETHING, JIM.

>> Braude: PLEASE.

>> I WONDER IF THEY'RE DOING THIS KNOWING THAT IT WILL FAIL?

RIGHT?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

>> AND IF THERE WAS THE REMOTEST CHANCE IT WOULD SUCCEED, I WOULD HOPE AT LEAST THAT THE TED CRUZES OF THE WORLD WOULD SAY THIS IS WRONG.

SO THIS BECOMES A SYMBOLIC GESTURE TO THEIR FAITH, AND THAT'S IT.

BUT THE PROBLEM IS IT MAY NOT BE CONTROLLABLE.

AND IT MAY NOT BE CONTROLLABLE AS PRECEDENT GOING FORWARD.

>> Braude: JUDGE GERTNER, IF I MAY JUST CONTINUE THAT FOR A SECOND, EVEN IF YOU'RE RIGHT ABOUT WHAT THE INTERNAL UNDERSTANDING IS, I DON'T THINK THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE IN ON THE INSIDE STORY.

AND THE MESSAGE IT SEEMS TO CONVEY TO ME IS THAT IF A PRESIDENT OF ONE PARTY IS ELECTED BUT THE OTHER PARTY CONTROLS THE HOUSE AND THE SENATE, WHICH LUCKILY DOES NOT HAPPEN NOW, IF YOU FEEL LIKE IT, YOU CAN OVERTURN THE RESULTS OF THE ELECTION, IF YOU HAVE A STRONG ENOUGH MAJORITY IN THE CONGRESS.

ISN'T THAT THE TAKE AWAY FROM 140 REPUBLICANS IN THE HOUSE AND 12 SENATORS DOING THIS?

WEDNESDAY WILL BE A PRETTY DRAMATIC DAY, AND THE CHALLENGES WILL BE FILED.

AND THERE IS CHALLENGES ABOUT WHAT MIKE PENCE CAN DO.

ALL THE READING I HAVE DONE SUGGESTS HE IS NOTHING BUT AN ADMINISTER ADMINISTERIAL SUPPORTER.

THE REALITY IS PENCE IS PRETTY WELL LOCKED IN, OTHER THAN, I ASSUME, MAKING SOME SPEECH OR SOMETHING.

AM I RIGHT ABOUT THAT?

>> HE IS TOTALLY LOCKED IN.

THIS IS JUST A CEREMONY.

THE CONSTITUTION MAKES IT A CEREMONY.

THE STATUTES MAKE IT A CEREMONY.

THE CEREMONY IS OPENING THE MAIL AND ANNOUNCING THE RESULTS.

THE WORK WAS DONE BY DECEMBER, WHEN THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE VOTED.

AT THIS POINT IT IS NOTHING MORE THAN PUTTING THE SEAL OF APPROVAL OF THE CONGRESS ON IT.

IT WOULD BE ONE THING IF THERE WERE LEGITIMATE CONTESTS BETWEEN EEL ELECTORS, BUT THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

>> Braude: DEVIN NUNES, WHO IS A FAVORITE OF THE PRESIDENT, WHO WAS REMOVED FROM HIS LEADERSHIP POSITION ON THE HOUSE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE BECAUSE OF HIS BEHAVIOR WITH THE PRESIDENT, SNEAKING OVER TO THE WHITE HOUSE TO HAND OVER SOME MATERIAL THAT WAS BEFORE THE COMMITTEE ON THE RUSSIA INVESTIGATION, WAS AWARDED THE MEDAL OF FREEDOM, THE HIGHEST CIVILIAN HONOR IN THIS COUNTRY.

LOOK AT YOUR FACE, JUDGE GERTNER.

WHAT IS YOUR QUICK REACTION TO THAT?

>> IT IS AN UNIMAGINABLE REACTION AND IT IS PROBABLY NOT CLEAN FOR TV.

>> Braude: DO YOU HAVE A CLEAN ONE, JENNIFER?

>> RARELY, WHEN TALKING ABOUT DEVIN NUNES, NO.

THIS PRESIDENT HAS DEVALUED THE PRESIDENCY IN EVERY MANNER, AND THIS IS JUST ONE MORE WAY THAT HE HAS DONE THAT.

>> Braude: YOU ACTUALLY THINK -- BEFORE WE WENT ON THE AIR, WE WERE TALKING, THE THREE OF US, WHO LEAKED THE TAPE.

AND I SAID, WITHOUT EVEN THINKING FOR A SECOND, OBVIOUSLY THE SECRETARY OF STATE'S OFFICE IN GEORGIA.

JENNIFER, YOU DON'T AGREE, DO YOU?

>> I DON'T AGREE AT ALL.

I THINK THE SECRETARY OF STATE AND ATTORNEY-GENERAL IN GEORGIA HAVE TOO MUCH CHARACTER TO DO SUCH A THING.

I THINK IT WAS LIKELY ONE OF THE SEVERAL PEOPLE FROM TRUMP'S TEAM WHO WAS ON THAT CALL.

I THINK THEY HAVE MIXED ALLEGIANCES AND MIXED AMBITION, AND CONFLICTING REASONS FOR BEING PART OF THE PRESIDENT'S TEAM.

I THINK IT IS MUCH MORE LIKELY THAT SOMEBODY ON HIS SIDE LEAKED THAT TAPE.

>> ALTHOUGH IT IS INTERESTING THAT THEY TAPED IT.

IT SAYS SOMETHING ABOUT WHAT THEY ANTICIPATED AND THAT THEY TAPED IT.

I THOUGHT TRUMP WOULD STAY WITHIN THE LINE, OPPOSE THE ELECTION AND ALL OF THAT, AND AFTER HE LEFT OFFICE, WE WOULD HEAR FROM LEAKS FROM HIS LEAKY STAFF AND FROM THE PRESS ABOUT WHAT HE HAD ACTUALLY BEEN DOING BEHIND THE SCENES.

THIS IS EXTRAORDINARY.

THIS IS EXTRAORDINARY.

THE FACT THAT THIS LEAKED NOW.

>> Braude: WHAT'S THAT AGAIN?

>> THE FACT THAT IT LEAKED NOW IS EXTRAORDINARY.

>> Braude: WELL, WE HAVE 16 DAYS TO GO, SO I ASSUME WE'LL SEE YOU BOTH BACK HERE 16 MORE TIMES.

JUDGE GERTNER AND JENNIFER HORNER, IT'S GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Braude: THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT.

WE'LL BE BACK TOMORROW.

THANKS FOR WATCHING.

AND, OF COURSE, STAY SAFE.

Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org