>> HAYNES: I'M CRYSTAL HAYNES.

TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON," A LOOK AT CHARLIE BAKER'S LEGACY, AS HIS LAST FULL DAY ON THE JOB COMES TO AN END.

PLUS, COVID WASTEWATER LEVELS HIT HIGHS NOT SEEN SINCE LAST WINTER THANKS, IN PART, TO A NEW SUBVARIENT, AS BOSTON PUBLIC SCHOOLS ASK STUDENTS AND STAFF TO MASK UP.

TWO DOCTORS JOIN ME, AHEAD.

AND FINALLY, THE N.F.L.

REELS FROM DAMAR HAMLIN'S HORRIFIC INJURY AND COLLAPSE ON THE FIELD DURING MONDAY NIGHT FOOTBALL.

WILL CHANGES BE MADE?

♪♪ >> HAYNES: IT'S THE END OF AN ERA IN MASSACHUSETTS, AND THE END OF CHARLIE BAKER'S LAST FULL DAY AS GOVERNOR.

BY THIS TIME TOMORROW, HIS SUCCESSOR MAURA HEALEY WILL HAVE OFFICIALLY TAKEN OVER THE CORNER OFFICE.

HOW WILL BAKER, CONSISTENTLY RANKED AMONG THE MOST POPULAR GOVERNORS IN THE COUNTRY, BE REMEMBERED HERE IN MASSACHUSETTS?

GBH STATEHOUSE REPORTER KATIE LANNAN JOINS ME NOW.

>> Haynes: I KNOW IT IS A VERY BUSY DAY AT THE STATE HOUSE, KATIE?

>> YES, IT SURE IS.

GOOD TO BE WITH YOU, THOUGH, CRYSTAL.

>> Haynes: LET'S TALK ABOUT GOVERNOR BAKER'S RECORD, EIGHT YEARS IN OFFICE.

HE HAS CONSISTENTLY BEEN VOTED ONE OF THE MOST POPULAR GOVERNORS IN THE COUNTRY.

WHAT'S THE FEELING LIKE RIGHT NOW AS HE LEAVES OFFICE?

>> YEAH.

IT'S DEFINITELY A VERY EMOTIONAL DAY.

IT IS KIND OF A WEIRD TIME AT THE STATE HOUSE BECAUSE EVEN TODAY AS THE GOVERNOR IS GETTING READY TO TAKE THIS EMOTIONAL SYMBOLIC LAST WALK OUT, THE NEW LEGISLATURE HAS JUST BEEN SWORN IN.

SO THERE IS CELEBRATION.

THERE IS -- YOU KNOW, THE GOVERNOR HAS CALLED THIS BITTERSWEET THAT HE IS LEAVING.

HE IS REALLY GOING TO MISS THE PEOPLE OF MASSACHUSETTS AND THE WORK THEY HAVE ALL DONE TOGETHER.

LIKE YOU SAID, HE HAS BEEN VERY POPULAR WITH VOTERS.

HE HAS GOOD RELATIONSHIPS WITH THE LEGISLATURE, EVEN THOUGH IT IS CONTROLLED ALMOST ENTIRELY BY DEMOCRATS.

SO THERE IS, I THINK, A REAL SENSE OF AN EMOTIONAL GOOD-BYE HERE TODAY.

>> Haynes: AND SO WE KNOW THAT IN HIS FINAL ADDRESS HE TALKED ABOUT HIS ACHIEVEMENTS.

HE IS TALKING ABOUT THE BUDGET.

I MEAN, CERTAINLY, YOU KNOW, THE BUDGET HAS GONE FROM A BILLION DOLLAR DEFICIT TO A 5 BILLION-DOLLAR SURPLUS.

THE STATE'S RAINY DAY FUND INCREASED TO $7 BILLION.

HE ACTUALLY WAS ABLE TO GIVE TAXPAYERS BACK SOME MONEY, WHICH I BELIEVE SURPRISED A LOT OF LAWMAKERS.

BUT THERE WERE ALSO SOME BIG CHALLENGES THERE.

THE COVID-19 PANDEMIC, AND THE N.D.P.

A.

IS STILL A MESS, AND, OF COURSE, THE R.N.

V. CANDLE.

WHAT DO YOU THINK MAURA HEALEY IS GOING TO BE INHERITED AS YOU HAVE THIS SORT OF DICHOTOMY OF ACHIEVEMENTS AND THEN CHALLENGES, RIGHT?

>> RIGHT.

SO HEALEY TODAY STRUCK A REALLY OPTIMISTIC NOTE, SAYING SHE SEES THE STATE'S CHALLENGES AS OPPORTUNITIES, AND CERTAINLY THERE IS, YOU KNOW -- TRANSPORTATION IS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I THINK IS GOING TO BE AT THE FOREFRONT OF HER TENURE EARLY ON, MUCH LIKE IT WAS WHEN GOVERNOR BAKER CAME IN IN 2015 AND HAD TO DEAL WITH THE SERIES OF SNOWSTORMS THAT LEFT THE N.D.T.A.

UNABLE TO FUNCTION.

SHE HAS A WORLDWIDE SEARCH ALREADY ONGOING FOR THE NEXT GENERAL MANAGER.

I THINK WE'LL SEE SOME FOCUS ON THE "T" EARLY ON.

SHE SAID HOUSING IS GOING TO BE ONE OF HER PRIORITIES, AND THAT IS DEFINITELY AN ISSUE THAT THE GOVERNOR -- THAT GOVERNOR BAKER HAS TRIED TO ADDRESS.

HE HAS GOTTEN ZONING REFORMS THROUGH TO TAKE A BITE OUT OF THAT.

SOMEWHERE DOWN THE LINE, EVENTUALLY, BECAUSE THEY DON'T PAY OFF RIGHT AWAY.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IS INTERESTING IS THOSE KIND OF BIG ISSUES THAT FACE MASSACHUSETTS TEND TO BE SEEN AS MORE INTRACTABLE.

THEY HAVEN'T TAKEN GOVERNOR BAKER INTO LOWER APPROVAL RATING TERRITORY THAT THESE PROBLEMS PERSIST.

HE IS STILL VIEWED AS POPULAR AS HE TRIES TO TACKLE THEM.

>> Haynes: DO YOU THINK THAT AS THE TRANSITION HAPPENS, THERE WILL STILL BE THAT SAME BIPARTISAN FEEL?

I MEAN, CHARLIE BAKER WAS CERTAINLY A MODERATE REPUBLICAN, ONE THAT BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE FELT LIKE THEY COULD WORK WITH?

>> IT IS INTERESTING, RIGHT?

WE HAVEN'T SEEN WHAT KIND OF GOVERNOR YET MAURA HEALEY IS GOING TO BE.

OF COURSE, SHE IS NOT GOVERNOR YET, SO THAT IS WHY.

SHE DID STAKE OUT THAT MODERATE CHARLIE BAKER-LIKE LANE AS SHE CAMPAIGNED.

BUT SHE BUILT A REPUTATION AS A PROGRESSIVE ATTORNEY GENERAL.

AND DEMOCRATS CAN HAVE FRAUGHT RELATIONSHIPS WITH THE DEMOCRATS IN THE LEGISLATURE AS THEY TRY TO SEE WHO GETS TO BE THE ONE TO SET THE STATE'S AGENDA.

SO THERE HAVE BEEN TENSE RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN THE DEMOCRATS AND THE LEGISLATURE AND DEMOCRATIC GOVERNORS BEFORE.

WHEREAS MASSACHUSETTS LIKES TO HAVE A REPUBLICAN IN THE CORNER OFFICE TO SERVE AS KIND OF THAT CHECK ON THE MAYBE MORE PROGRESSING LEANINGS OF THE LEGISLATURE.

AND MAURA HEALEY COULD ALSO PROVIDE THAT CHECK IF SHE CHOOSES TO STICK TO THAT BAKER-STYLE IMAGE.

>> Haynes: IN THE LAST 30 SECONDS, NOW, WHAT DO YOU SEE AS THE DAY ONE LOOKING LIKE FOR THE HEALEY ADMINISTRATION, AS BAKER, YOU KNOW, LEAVES, TAKES THAT FINAL WALK?

>> THERE WILL BE A LOT OF CEREMONY, FIRST AND FOREMOST, WITH HER SWEARING IN DURING THE DAY, AND A CELEBRATION AT THE T.D.

GARDEN AT NIGHT.

MAYBE WE'LL SEE MORE CABINET APPOINTMENTS COME OUT FROM HER AS SHE CONTINUES BUILDING HER TEAM AND SETTING UP THE INFRASTRUCTURE OF HER ADMINISTRATION.

>> Haynes: THANK YOU, KATIE LANNAN.

I KNOW YOU'VE BEEN RUNNING AROUND AND COVERING THIS FOR A WHILE, AND I APPRECIATE THE TIME.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> Haynes: IT IS THE SAME OLD WINTER STORY: THE DROP IN TEMPERATURE DURING THE COLDER MONTHS BRINGS A RISE IN COVID CASES, AND THIS YEAR IS NO DIFFERENT.

WASTEWATER LEVELS IN MASSACHUSETTS HAVE HIT HIGHS NOT SEEN SINCE LAST WINTER'S SURGE OF THE OMICRON VARIANT, THANKS TO A TRIO OF IMMUNE-RESISTANT SUBVARIANTS.

ONE OF THEM, KNOWN AS XBB, ACCOUNTED FOR JUST 11% OF ALL COVID CASES ACROSS NEW ENGLAND JUST A MONTH AGO.

NOW IT'S BEHIND MORE THAN THREE-QUARTERS OF THEM.

THE RISE OF XBB AS KIDS RETURN FROM A LENGTHY HOLIDAY BREAK HAS PROMPTED BOSTON PUBLIC SCHOOLS OFFICIALS TO ASK STUDENTS AND STAFF TO WEAR FACE MASKS FOR EIGHT DAYS AFTER THEIR RETURN FROM VACATION, IN AN EFFORT TO REDUCE THE SPREAD OF NOT JUST COVID, BUT THE FLU AND OTHER RESPIRATORY ILLNESSES LIKE RSV.

BUT IT'S A REQUEST, NOT A MANDATE.

SO IS B.P.S.

DOING ENOUGH TO KEEP PEOPLE SAFE?

WHAT ABOUT THE REST OF US?

I AM JOINED NOW BY DR. SHIRA DORON, INFECTIOUS DISEASE PHYSICIAN AND HOSPITAL EPIDEMIOLOGIST AT TUFTS MEDICAL CENTERB AND DR. DAVID HAMER, A PROFESSOR OF GLOBAL HEALTH AND MEDICINE AT BOSTON UNIVERSITY AND INTERIM DIRECTOR OF THE SCHOOL'S CENTER FOR EMERGING INFECTIOUS DISEASES RESEARCH AND POLICY.

>> Haynes: WELCOME TO YOU BOTH.

>> GOOD TO BE WITH YOU.

>> Haynes: SO I WANT TO TALK ABOUT WHERE WE ARE IN TERMS OF COVID CASES RIGHT NOW, ESPECIALLY AROUND THE CITY OF BOSTON.

DR. DORON, WHY DON'T YOU TALK TO ME A LITTLE ABOUT WHAT YOU'RE SEEING?

>> Doctor: YEAH, WE'RE SEEING A BIT OF A CONFUSING PICTURE, TO BE HONEST WITH YOU.

WE SEE THIS REALLY QUITE DRAMATIC INCREASE IN THE WASTEWATER VIRUS LEVELS OVER THE LAST FEW DAYS OR SO.

AND YET WE AREN'T REALLY SEEING THAT IN THE CASE NUMBERS, EITHER AT THE STATE LEVEL OR IN BOSTON.

BOSTON IS SEEING AN 18% DECREASE OVER THE LAST WEEK IN CASES.

HOSPITALIZATIONS ARE UP A LITTLE BIT, BUT WHEN YOU LOOK AT WHERE WE ARE TODAY, JANUARY 4th, COMPARED TO A YEAR AGO JANUARY 4th, IT IS LIKE A DIFFERENT COVID PLANET.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT900 CASES, ON A SEVEN-DAY AVERAGE IN THE STATE, VERSUS 23,000 A YEAR AGO.

SO THINGS ARE A LOT BETTER, EVEN THOUGH WE'RE SEEING THIS DRAMATIC CHANGE IN THE WASTEWATER AT THE MOMENT.

>> Haynes: DR. HAMER, WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THESE NUMBERS RECENTLY?

>> Doctor: I'M CONCERNED BY THE RISE IN THE WASTEWATER DATA.

PART OF THE CHALLENGE IS THERE IS A LOT MORE PEOPLE USING HOME RAPID TESTS, AND THOSE DATA DON'T FEED INTO THE NUMBERS THE STATE HAS.

IN ADDITION, A LOT OF UNIVERSITIES, AND SOME SCHOOLS, A YEAR AGO WERE TESTING WITH P.C.R.

OR RAPID TESTS, AND THOSE DATA WOULD FEED INTO THE STATE LEVEL DATA.

SO THAT INFORMATION IS NOT REACHING THE STATE.

SO THE STATE NUMBERS, I THINK, UNFORTUNATELY, ARE NOT AS ACCURATE AS THEY USED TO BE.

THAT SAID, I AGREE WITH DR. DORON.

THERE MAY BE A LOT OF PEOPLE WITH MILDER INFECTIONS.

HOSPITALIZATIONS HAVE NOT CHANGED VERY MUCH.

SO THAT IS GOOD NEWS.

THAT MEANS THERE ARE LESS -- THERE ARE FEWER PEOPLE WITH SEVERE DISEASE.

BUT, YOU KNOW, THE SUGGESTION IS THAT THERE IS A LOT OF COVID CIRCULATING AND X.B.B., 1.5, OR WHATEVER THE CURRENT STRAIN IS, SEEMS TO HAVE REALLY TAKEN OFF IN NEW ENGLAND AND MASSACHUSETTS IN THE LAST FEW WEEKS.

>> Haynes: WE KNOW B.P.S.

IS SAYING IT IS NOT JUST COVID THAT IS THEIR CONCERNED.

THEY'RE THINKING ABOUT THE FLU.

THEY'RE THINKING ABOUT R.S.V., OTHER ILLNESSES.

I KNOW THE SUPERINTENDENT HAD CITED 60% OF THE FLU CASES IN BOSTON ARE AMONG 17-YEAR-OLD FOLKS AND YOUNGER.

AND SHE ALSO POINTS TO BLACK AND BROWN COMMUNITIES.

AS WE TALK ABOUT THAT, IS THIS MASK MANDATE THEN NECESSARY?

>> Doctor: WELL, THE GOOD NEWS IS THAT R.S.V.

IS IN THE REAR-VIEW MIRROR.

THAT INFECTION PEAKED WEEKS AGO.

WE'RE SEEING ALMOST NO POSITIVE TESTS AT MY HOSPITAL OVER THE LAST SEVERAL WEEKS.

INFLUENZA, WE ARE HEARING ABOUT HIGH LEVELS.

WE DO HAVE TO RECOGNIZE THAT WE HAVE CHANGED THE WAY WE COUNT INFLUENZA CASES IN A WAY THAT IS GOING TO MAKE LEVELS LOOK HIGHER.

SO WE LOOK AT INFLUENZA HOSPITALIZATIONS, AND IT APPEARS WE'RE PAST THE PEAK ON THAT, TOO.

I'M NOT TAKING A SIGH OF RELIEF YET BECAUSE WE HAD TWO PEAKS LAST YEAR.

BUT WE ARE IN A MANAGEABLE FLU SEASON FROM A HOSPITALIZATION STANDPOINT RIGHT NOW INcn MASSACHUSETTS.

>> Haynes: SO THEN WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THIS MASK MANDATE?

>> Doctor: WELL, I THINK -- >> Haynes: EXCUSE ME.

RECOMMENDATION.

IT IS NOT A MANDATE.

IT IS A RECOMMENDATION.

>> Doctor: RIGHT.

I THINK THAT IT DOESN'T MAKE A LOT OF SENSE TO FOCUS MASK RECOMMENDATIONS ON SCHOOLS AND CHILDREN WHEN WE AREN'T HAVING THOSE CONVERSATIONS MORE BROADLY ABOUT ADULTS AND ALL OF THE OTHER VENUES WITHIN OUR STATE THAT ARE WIDE OPEN AND NORMAL.

AND THEY'RE WIDE OPEN AND NORMAL BECAUSE WE ARE IN A VERY DIFFERENT STAGE OF THE PANDEMIC, WITH LOTS OF IMMUNITY, ACCESS TO TESTING AND ACCESS TO TREATMENT.

>> Haynes: DR. HAMER, WHAT DID YOU THINK ABOUT THE MASK RECOMMENDATION HERE?

>> Doctor: I SLIGHTLY DEFER ON THAT.

I THINK WE'RE AT A POINT WHERE R.S.V.

IS DEFINITELY DYING DOWN.

INFLUENZA HAS CALMED DOWN.

COVID MAY BE INCREASING, ALTHOUGH IT IS NOT INCREASING IN SEVERITY OR IMPACT ON HEALTH CARE FACILITIES.

BUT THERE IS STILL A LOT OF VIRUS CIRCULATING.

AND INFLUENZA CAN AFFECT YOUNG CHILDREN.

CAN MAKE THEM QUITE ILL. AND IN PAST YEARS, IF YOU SHUT DOWN ALL OF THE SCHOOLS, WHICH I DON'T RECOMMEND, BUT IF YOU DO THAT, THEN IT OFTEN LEADS TO AN INTERRUPTION IN INFLUENZA TRANSMISSION IN A COMMUNITY.

SO THERE IS SORT OF MOVEMENT OF INFLUENZA IN THE SCHOOLS, AND THEN FROM THE SCHOOLS BACK TO HOME.

BUT I AGREE WITH DR. DORON, IF YOU'RE GOING TO BE DOING A MASK RECOMMENDATION, IT SHOULD BE PROBABLY MORE WIDELY IMPLEMENTED.

AND SOME UNIVERSITIES, INCLUDING BOSTON UNIVERSITY, WHERE I WORK, IS HAVING A STRONGER RECOMMENDATION FOR MASK USE FOR THE WHOLE MONTH OF JANUARY AS STUDENTS RETURN FROM ALL OVER THE COUNTRY.

HAVING BEEN AT EVENTS WITH FAMILIES AND FRIENDS.

BECAUSE THE INCREASE RISK OF TRANSMISSION.

THE BENEFITS ARE IF YOU GET SICK FROM INFLUENZA, YOU CAN BE QUITE SICK AND YOU CAN LOSE MANY DAYS -- THREE TO FIVE DAYS OR MORE FROM WORK OR FROM SCHOOL, AND THAT CAN REALLY HAVE A NEGATIVE IMPACT ON YOUR EDUCATION.

BUT ALSO, IF YOU HAVE A CHILD, AND YOUR CHILD GETS SICK AND CAN'T GO TO SCHOOL, THEN THE PARENTS ARE GOING TO HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT TAKING CARE OF THAT CHILD, AND IT MAY INTERRUPT THEIR USUAL SCHEDULE.

SO THERE ARE SOME BENEFITS TO MASK USE THAT GOES BEYOND SIMPLY PREVENTING DISEASE.

>> Haynes: THERE ARE FAMILIES AND THERE ARE SOME FOLKS WHO SAY THIS RECOMMENDATION DIDN'T GO FAR ENOUGH.

EIGHT DAYS IS NOT LONG ENOUGH.

I WANT TO PULL UP A STATEMENT FROM THE FAMILIES FOR COVID SAFETY PRESS RELEASE: "THE FAILURE TO HAVE TRUE REQUIRED UNIVERSAL MASKING AFTER THEf7kO HOLIDAY BREAK FOLLOWS NEITHER THE DATA OR THE SCIENCE."

THERE IS A QUOTE FROM ONE OF THE PARENTS: "THIS IS AN INEQUITABLE POLICY DECISION THAT LEAVES OUR CHILDREN AND THE ENTIRE B.P.S.

COMMUNITY LESS PROTECTED IN THE MIDST OF THE CURRENT SURGE."

I KNOW, DR. DORON, YOU DON'T THINK WE NEED TO GO OVERBOARD WITH THE MASKING.

BUT WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT DESPERATE OUTCOMES FOR BLACK AND BROWN COMMUNITIES, DO WE NEED TO HAVE A LITTLE BIT MORE CAUTION HERE?

>> Doctor: YOU KNOW, I REALLY BELIEVE THAT MASKS WORK.

AND BEFORE WE -- BEFORE THE C.D.C.

RECOMMENDED MAKING MASKS AT HOME BECAUSE THAT WAS ALL THERE WAS ACCESS TO, AND THEREFORE RECOMMENDED THAT EVERYONE DO IT TOGETHER BECAUSE YOURS WILL PROTECT ME AND MINE WILL PROTECT YOU, WHICH WAS A MESSAGE PERFORMED BECAUSE HOME MASKS DON'T WORK AS WELL AS MEDICAL MASKS.

BEFORE THAT, WE KNEW THAT MEDICAL MASKS WERE USED AS PERSONAL PROTECTIVE SCIMENT.

EQUIPMENT.

AND TODAY WHEN THE SUPPLY CHAIN ALLOWS PEOPLE TO USE MEDICAL MASKS, AND I BELIEVE THAT SCHOOLS SHOULD BE DISTRIBUTING FREE MEDICAL MASKS TO THOSE WHO WANT TO WEAR THEM, WE DON'T NEED TO WORRY SO MUCH ABOUT WHAT OTHER PEOPLE ARE DOING.

BECAUSE WE EACH HAVE THE ABILITY TO PROTECT OURSELVES WITH A WELL-FITTING, HIGH-QUALITY, MEDICAL-GRADE MASK.

I THINK THAT IS A BETTER STRATEGY THAN RELYING ON OTHER PEOPLE TO RELUCTANTLY DO SO, WHO MAY THEN WEAR THEM INCORRECTLY, AND THEY MIGHT NOT BE GOOD QUALITY.

>> Haynes: DR. HAMER, I KNOW THAT THE WINTER ISN'T OVER, CERTAINLY IT ISN'T IN NEW ENGLAND.

IT DOESN'T ALWAYS FOLLOW THE CALENDAR.

WHAT SHOULD FOLKS DO, TO YOUR MIND AND THE RESEARCH YOU HAVE DONE, AS WE MOVE FORWARD THROUGH THE WINTER MONTHS?

>> Doctor: I THINK IT DEPENDS ON THE INDIVIDUAL.

AS DR. DORON MENTIONED, IT REALLY IS AN INDIVIDUAL DECISION.

BUT I THINK THAT ANYBODY WHO IS AT HIGH RISK FOR DEVELOPING SEVERE DISEASE, WHETHER IT BE FROM INFLUENZA OR FROM COVID-19, SHOULD BE THINKING ABOUT MASK USE TO PROTECT THEMSELVES, OR IF THEY HAVE FAMILY MEMBERS WHO ARE VULNERABLE, TO PROTECT THOSE FAMILY MEMBERS.

THAT GOES BEYOND SCHOOLS AND UNIVERSITIES.

IT EXTENDS TO THE WORKPLACE, PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION, AND ESPECIALLY DURING THE WINTER MONTHS WHEN THERE IS USUALLY A HIGHER RISK BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE FORCED TO BE INDOORS.

SO I THINK, YOU KNOW, CONTINUED SORT OF PERSONAL PROTECTION FOR THOSE WHO PERCEIVE A NEED, WHETHER IT IS THEIR PERSONAL NEED OR TO PROTECT FAMILY MEMBERS, IS A WISE IDEA.

>> HAYNES: DR. SHIRA DORON, DR. DAVID HAMER, THANKS.

>> MY PLEASURE.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Haynes: THE BUFFALO BILLS DID NOT TALK TO THE PRESS DURING THEIR WALK-THROUGH AT GILLETTE STADIUM TODAY, AHEAD OF SUNDAY'S GAME AGAINST THE PATS.

BUT IT'S SAFE TO ASSUME THERE'S ONE THING ON EVERYONE'S MINDS TODAY: THE CONDITION OF BILLS SAFETY DAMAR HAMLIN, WHO WENT INTO CARDIAC ARREST ON THE FIELD MONDAY NIGHT, AND IS NOW FIGHTING FOR HIS LIFE IN THE I.C.U.

THERE'S ALSO BEEN A LOT OF FOCUS IN THE PAST DAY OR SO ABOUT HOW THE N.F.L.

HANDLED HAMLIN'S COLLAPSE, TAKING AN HOUR TO OFFICIALLY POSTPONE THE GAME, AFTER MEDICAL STAFF ADMINISTERED C.P.R.

FOR AROUND 10 MINUTES BEFORE GETTING HIM TO THE HOSPITAL, ALL WHILE HIS TEAMMATES AND FANS LOOKED ON IN HORROR.

THE N.F.L.

LATER DENIED IT ORIGINALLY PLANNED TO RESTART THE GAME, BUT THAT'S NOT HOW IT LOOKED TO MANY VIEWERS, INCLUDING JOURNALIST ERNEST OWENS, WHO CITED SPECULATION THAT, "THE N.F.L.

DIDN'T EVEN LEAD THE CHARGE IN CANCELING THE GAME.

THE SHAKEN COACHES, CAPTAIN, AND PLAYERS FROM BOTH TEAMS APPARENTLY CALLED IT QUITS."

THAT'S FROM A PIECE HE WROTE IN FOR THE DAILY BEAST, TITLED: "N.F.L.

PROVES YET AGAIN IT DOESN'T GIVE A DAMN ABOUT BLACK PLAYERS."

ERNEST IS ALSO THE AUTHOR OF THE UPCOMING BOOK: "THE CASE FOR CANCEL CULTURE."

HE JOINS ME NOW, AS DOES BEN VOLIN, SENIOR N.F.L.

WRITER AT THE "BOSTON GLOBE."

>> Haynes: WELCOME.

WELCOME, GENTLEMEN.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME TODAY.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Haynes: SO LET'S TALK ABOUT THIS.

THIS WAS AN INCREDIBLE THING TO WATCH ON TELEVISION, BEN, AS WE SAW PLAYERS THAT WERE BASICALLY COLLAPSED TO GROUND AFTER THEY SAW DAMAR HAMLIN COLLAPSE.

I CAN'T REMEMBER A TIME WATCHING NFL IN RECENT MEMORY THAT THIS HAS HAPPENED?

>> TRULY A GUT-WRENCHING TEAM ON MONDAY NIGHT IN CINCINNATI AT THE BILLS/BENGALS' GAME.

I THINK YOU SAW THE REACTION BY THE PLAYERS WHEN THEY SAY DAMAR HAMLIN FAINT TO THE GROUND AND IMMEDIATELY FIGHTING FOR HIS LIFE.

KUDOS TO THE MEDICAL STAFF FOR BEING RIGHT ON TOP OF HIM.

I THINK SAVING DAMAR HAMLIN FROM AN AWFUL TRAGEDY, AND THE NFL AS WELL.

DAMAR HAMLIN'S HEART HAD STOPPED FUNCTIONING, AND THEY GOT IT BACK TO NORMAL BEATING AGAIN ON THE FIELD.

I THINK THEIR QUICK ACTION REALLY SAVED HIS LIFE.

THIS IS NOT SOMETHING THAT HAPPENS REALLY EVER IN THE NFL.

THE ONLY OTHER INCIDENT I CAN THINK OF IS IN 1970, 1971, A PLAYER HAD A CARDIAC INCIDENT ON THE FIELD AND LATER DIED.

THE MEDICAL STAFFS DO ALL OF THIS TRAINING EVERY YEAR TO PREPARE FOR SUCH SITUATIONS AND NEVER HAVE TO USE IT.

THE TIME FINALLY CAME, UNFORTUNATELY, AND I THINK THEY REALLY ROSE TO THE OCCASION.

SO KUDOS TO THE MEDICAL STAFF OF THE BILLS AND THE BENGALS FOR SAVING DAMAR HAMLIN'S LIFE.

>> Haynes: I KNOW THAT THE RESPONSE, EARNEST, HAS GOTTEN A LOT OF CRITICISM, INCLUDING FROM YOURSELF.

TALK TO ME IN WATCHING THIS UNFOLD, THE RESPONSE FROM THE NFL, THE RESPONSE ON THE FIELD, WHAT WAS GOING THROUGH YOUR MIND?

>> I THINK THAT WHAT IS REALLY IMPORTANT IS THE WAY THAT THE NFL, AS THE ORGANIZATION AND INSTITUTION, HANDLED IT, IT TOOK THEM A LITTLE OVER AN HOUR TO FINALLY DECIDE TO CUT THE GAME.

AND IT WASN'T THEIR CHOICE.

THE TEAMS HAD TO PUT THEIR FOOT DOWN AND SAY ENOUGH.

AND THAT SAYS SOMETHING FOR A LEAGUE THAT HAS ALREADY BEEN RIDDLED IN CONTROVERSY FROM THE ISSUES WITH C.T.E., TO OTHER CONCERNS AROUND RACIAL INEQUITY.

IT IS REALLY FRUSTRATING THAT EVEN KNOW THEY'RE PRIORITIZING PROFIT OVER THE PEOPLE.

I BELIEVE IT BECAME VERY CLEAR TO SO MANY FANS, AND OBSERVERS SUCH AS MYSELF, WHY ONCE AGAIN THE NFL CONTINUES TO NOT PRIORITIZE THE HEALTH AND SAFETY OF ITS PLAYERS.

>> Haynes: SO I KNOW THAT THERE WAS A LOT OF -- THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF CONVERSATION ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT THAT FIVE-MINUTE RESTART ACTUALLY CAME FROM THE NFL OR NOT.

I KNOW THAT ESPN HAS DOUBLED DOWN AND SAID WE GOT THIS.

WE WERE TOLD THEY HAD TO RESET IN FIVE MINUTES.

>> YES.

>> Haynes: BUT, YOU KNOW, THE NFL IS SAYING THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

AS WE WERE TALKING ABOUT DAMAR HAMLIN IN THE I.C.U.

RIGHT NOW, WHAT DOES THAT CONVERSATION NEED TO BE?

>> WELL, SO THE NFL HAD ANOTHER MEDIA CALL TODAY ON WEDNESDAY, AND TROY VINCENT CAME OUT AND ADAMANTLY DENIED THERE WAS EVER ANY CONVERSATION ABOUT RESTARTING THE GAME.

HE SAID HE WAS THE MAIN POINT GUY, HE WAS ON THE PHONE WITH THE OFFICIAL AND BOTH COACHES, AND HE SAYS THERE WAS NEVER ANY TALK ABOUT RESTARTING THE GAME.

NOW, I'VE DEVELOPED A THEORY, AND I BELIEVE I KNOW WHAT HAPPENED.

THE INFORMATION CAME FROM THE ESPN'S RULES ANALYST, JOHN PERRY, A FORMER NFL OFFICIAL, AND HE IS IN DIRECT CONTACT DURING THE GAMES WITH THE LEAGUE'S INSTANT REPLAY BOOTH.

THE GUYS IN NEW YORK CITY WHO ARE DETERMINING ALL OF THE INSTANT REPLAY DECISIONS.

I THINK THAT IS WHERE THE INFORMATION CAME FROM, KIND OF A LOWER RUNG ON THE LADDER OF THE NFL, NOT FROM THE HIGHER-UPS.

THAT'S WHERE I THINK THERE WAS SOME CONFUSION THAT POTENTIALLY IT CAME FROM THE INSTANT REPLAY, NOT FROM THE EXECUTIVES WHO ARE TRULY IN CHARGE.

THAT COULD EXPLAIN AND COULD ALLOW -- THERE IS WIGGLE ROOM FOR ALL SIDES TO BE CORRECT.

TROY VINCENT COULD BE CORRECT THEY NEVER ASKED FOR THE FIVE MINUTES, AND THE PLAYERS ARE CORRECT IF THEY HADN'T STEPPED IN, MAYBE THE GAME WOULD HAVE CONTINUED.

IN MOST CASES WHERE THERE IS A TRAUMATIC INJURY ON THE FIELD, THE GAME CONTINUES.

IT IS VERY RARE FOR THEM TO POSTPONE A GAME.

I THINK THERE WAS A MIX UP IN CONVERSATION THAN THE NFL TRYING TO MOVE ALONG WITH THE GAME.

>> Haynes: EARNEST, I KNOW YOU HAVE TO LEAVE IN A FEW MINUTES, AND I'LL CONTINUE OUR CONVERSATION WITH BEN, BUT WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF ALL THIS BACK AND FORTH ABOUT WHO WAS MAKING THOSE DECISIONS OUT THERE?

>> PERSONALLY, I THINK THAT THE LONG DELAY FROM THE NFL ON THAT WHOLE DECISION SHOWS ME THERE WAS SOME INCOMPETENCE THERE.

I THINK THAT THE FACT THERE WAS EVEN ANY TYPE OF ENTERTAINMENT OF CONTINUING THE GAME AFTER SEEING THOSE PLAYERS TAKE A KNEE AND PRAY, TO SEE THAT CROWD GO INSTANTLY SILENT, AND TO SEE SOMEONE BEING RUSHED OUT WITH AN AMBULANCE AFTER HAVING C.P.R., I THINK THAT THE HUMANITY HAS TO BE REMEMBERED HERE.

I THINK THE GAME SHOULD HAVE BEEN CALLED IMMEDIATELY.

I THINK WHEN YOU SEE A SITUATION WHERE C.P.R.

HAS TO BE ADMINISTERED, IT IS REALLY HARD TO DENY THE IMPACT THAT WOULD HAVE HAD ON THE GAME, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT IT WAS AN EMERGENCY OR NOT.

I REALLY THINK IT IS IMPORTANT FOR PEOPLE TO REMEMBER THESE PLAYERS ARE HUMANS, THEY'RE PEOPLE, AND THAT THEIR SAFETY MATTERS.

AND THE FACT THAT IT TOOK A YEAR FOR THEM TO DO THIS -- I MEAN AN HOUR -- IT FELT LIKE A YEAR -- IN UNACCEPTABLE.

>> Haynes: EARNEST, I CAN HEAR YOUR PHONE BUZZING, SO WE'RE GOING TO LET YOU GO.

BEN, I WANTED TO ASK YOU A FEW MORE QUESTIONS AS WE SEE THIS WAS ALSO A MOMENT WHERE FOOTBALL AND OTHER SPORTS ARE LOOKING AT HOW TO MAKE THE GAME EVEN MORE SAFER.

I KNOW THERE HAS BEEN A CONVERSATION ABOUT PUTTING PLATES OVER THE CHESTS.

MY HUSBAND COACHES HIGH SCHOOL LACROSSE, AND HE HAS BEEN TALKING WITH ME ABOUT THE CHANGES AND THOSE SPORTS.

WE DON'T SEE THAT WITH PROJECTILES AND BALLS.

DO YOU THINK THIS IS GOING TO BE A PIVOT POINT FOR THE NFL TO START THINKING WHAT THE PADS LOOK LIKE, WHAT ANOTHER SAFETY EQUIPMENT LOOKS LIKE?

>> THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION.

TO ME, THIS IS DIFFERENT FROM THE CONCUSSION INCIDENTS.

WE SAW ALL OF THE TIME, EVEN NOW WITH THEIR PROTOCOLS, CONCUSSIONS SLIP THROUGH THE CRACKS AND GUYS ARE ABLE TO PLAY WHEN THEY'RE CLEARLY CONCUSSED.

THIS SEEMS LIKE A ONE OFF SITUATION.

THE INCIDENTS SEEM TO HAPPEN IN SPORTS, LACROSSE, HOCKEY, BASEBALL -- IT'S NOT A FOOTBALL-SPECIFIC THING.

I'M UNCLEAR IF DAMAR HAMLIN HAD A PRE-DISPOSITION FOR ANY SORT OF HEART CONDITION.

A LOT OF UNKNOWNS RIGHT NOW.

YES, THE NFL WILL ALWAYS LOOK TO IMPROVE EQUIPMENT, AND MAYBE THERE IS SOME SORT OF CHEST PROTECTOR THEY CAN INTRODUCE.

TO ME, IT JUST VALIDATES THE NFL'S MEDICAL PROTOCOLS.

THEY HAD AN A.E.D.

ONSIGHT, AND 30 MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS AT THE GAME AND EMERGENCY PHYSICIANS WHO WERE ABLE TO GET TO DAMAR HAMLIN WITHIN SECONDS OF HIM HAVING HIS ISSUES ON THE FIELD.

SO TO ME, IF ANYTHING, IT SHOWS HOW WELL THE NFL PREPARES FOR SITUATIONS LIKE THIS, BECAUSE IT HADN'T HAPPENED IN DECADES, AND THEY HANDLED IT VERY WELL.

>> Haynes: I WANT TO TALK ABOUT DAMAR HAMLIN AS A PLAYER.

BECAUSE IT LOOKED LIKE HE REALLY TOUCHED SO MANY LIVES ON THAT TEAM IN BUFFALO.

THE FUNDRAISING IS -- YOU KNOW, IT WAS $2500 THAT HE WAS ON THE GoFundMe FOR I BELIEVE IT WAS HIS MOTHER'S DAYCARE, AND NOW IT IS IN THE MILLIONS OF DOLLARS.

WHAT IMPACT HAS HE HAD IN BUFFALO?

>> YEAH.

I THINK BEFORE THIS INCIDENT, DAMAR HAMLIN WAS JUST ONE OF THE GUYS.

HE WAS A SECOND-YEAR PLAYER, A SIXTH ROUND PICK, CERTAINLY NOT A BLUE-CHIP KIND OF PLAYER OR A SUPERSTAR BY ANY STRETCH.

BUT UNIVERSALLY BELOVED.

HIS TEAMMATES ALL LOVED HIM.

HE CAME FROM I THINK A ROUGHER PART OF THE PITTSBURGH AREA.

AND THE COACH SAID HE HAS KNOWN HIM SINCE HE WAS 12, AND TO MAKE HIS WAY INTO THE NFL AND AVOID SOME OF THE PITFALLS, HE TALKED ABOUT HOW PROUD HE WAS OF DAMAR HAMLIN AND THE PERSON HE HAS BECOME.

THE CHARITY YOU MENTIONED ORIGINALLY BEGAN AS A TOY DRIVE.

A CHRISTMAS TOY DRIVE.

THIS WAS BEFORE HE WAS FAMOUS.

IT SEEMS LIKE DAMAR ALWAYS HAD A GOOD SPIRIT.

IT IS REALLY HEART-WARMING TO SEE THE NFL COMMUNITY RALLY AROUND HIM AND DONATE MILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO HIS FOUNDATION AND DO SOMETHING FOR HIM WHILE HE IS GOING THROUGH A VERY TOUGH TIME.

>> Haynes: THE BILLS ARE GOING TO PLAY THE PATS ON SUNDAY.

I IMAGINE THERE ARE GOING TO BE A LOT OF EYES ON THAT GAME EVEN MORE SO.

>> IT IS GO TO BE AN UNPRECEDENTED DISPLAY.

I MOTION ON BOTH SIDES.

AS OF NOW, THE GAME IS STILL ON.

TROY VINCENT DID LEAVE OPEN THE POSSIBILITY OF, WHO KNOWS, MAYBE THE GAME DOESN'T ULTIMATELY GET PLAYED.

FOR NOW IT IS MOVING AHEAD, FULL STEAM AHEAD, 1:00 ON SUNDAY IN BUFFALO.

IT WILL BE A VERY EMOTIONAL SCENE FOR THE BILLS' FANS AND ANYONE INVOLVED IN FOOTBALL.

IT WILL BE TOUGH FOR THE BILLS.

THIS IS A BIG GAME FOR PLAYOFFS.

THEY ARE PLAYING REALLY WELL.

THEY HAVE SUPER BOWL HOPES.

WILL IT BE TOUGH TO REGROUP FROM ALL OF THIS?

WILL THEY BE ABLE TO USE THIS AS A RALLYING POINT?

OBVIOUSLY ALL EYES ARE ON THE BILLS, AND OUR HEARTS ARE WITH THEM.

Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org >> HAYNES: ERNEST OWENS, BEN VOLIN, THANKS.

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT.

WE'LL BE BACK TOMORROW.

THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND GOOD NIGHT.