>> Braude: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON," FORMER DEFENSE SECRETARY WILLIAM COHEN JOINS ME ON WHY HE AND EVERY OTHER LIVING FORMER DEFENSE SECRETARY FELT IT NECESSARY TO PUBLICLY DECLARE THE TIME FOR QUESTIONING THE ELECTION RESULTS HAS PASSED, AND HOW CONCERNED HE REALLY IS THAT TRUMP MAY TRY TO INVOLVE THE MILITARY IN HIS ATTEMPTED COUP.

THEN, LATER, WE'LL TALK ABOUT THE SHADOW THE PRESIDENT HAS CAST OVER TODAY'S RUNOFF ELECTIONS IN GEORGIA, WHERE CONTROL OF THE U.S. SENATE AND THE FUTURE OF THE BIDEN AGENDA HANG IN THE BALANCE.

AND, FINALLY, A LONG-TIME ACTIVIST WHO'S CALLING OUT THE DANGERS OF "CALL-OUT" CULTURE AND OFFERING UP AN ALTERNATIVE.

>>> TOMORROW'S THE DAY, THE DAY DONALD TRUMP HAS BEEN LASER FOCUSED ON FOR THE PAST SEVERAL WEEKS, WHEN CONGRESS WILL MEET TO RATIFY JOE BIDEN'S PRESIDENTIAL WIN.

IT'S A MEETING THAT'S SUPPOSED TO BE FAIRLY ORDINARY, THE CONGRESSIONAL EQUIVALENT OF A RUBBER STAMP ON AN ELECTION THAT'S LONG OVER, BUT TRUMP HAS MANAGED TO SET THE STAGE FOR IT TO BECOME A BATTLE ROYALE, STARRING NONE OTHER THAN VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE, WHO'S BEEN UNDER INCREASING PRESSURE FROM THE PRESIDENT TO OVERTURN THE ELECTION RESULTS.

THIS MORNING TRUMP TWEETED: "THE VICE PRESIDENT HAS THE POWER TO REJECT FRAUDULENTLY CHOSEN ELECTORS," A STATEMENT THAT'S NOT THE LEAST BIT TRUE.

PENCE'S ONLY JOB, IN FACT, IS TO COUNT THE VOTES, BUT IT SHOWS HOW MUCH PRESSURE THE PRESIDENT IS APPLYING, AS HE ALSO DID LAST NIGHT DURING A RALLY SPEECH IN GEORGIA, WHICH WAS SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT TODAY'S RUNOFF ELECTIONS, BUT INSTEAD FOCUSED ON THIS: >> I HOPE MIKE PENCE COMES THROUGH FOR US, I HAVE TO TELL YOU.

I HOPE THAT OUR GREAT VICE PRESIDENT, OUR GREAT VICE PRESIDENT, COMES THROUGH FOR US.

HE'S A GREAT GUY.

OF COURSE, IF HE DOESN'T COME THROUGH, I WON'T LIKE HIM QUITE AS MUCH.

>> Braude: THE PRESIDENT IS URGING HIS SUPPORTERS TO PUT ON THE PRESSURE AS WELL, CALLING ON THEM TO TAKE TO THE STREETS IN D.C. DURING THE VOTE COUNT, TWEETING: "BE THERE, WILL BE WILD."

THOUSANDS ARE EXPECTED TO TURN OUT, INCLUDING MEMBERS OF THE WHITE SUPREMACIST GROUP THE PROUD BOYS, THE LEADER OF WHICH WAS RECENTLY ARRESTED FOR GUN POSSESSION, AMONG OTHER CHARGES.

LOCAL OFFICIALS HAVE TEMPORARILY BANNED FIREARMS FOR THE DURATION OF THE PROTESTS AND ARE CALLING IN 300 NATIONAL GUARD TROOPS FOR SUPPORT.

AND MANY ARE INCREASINGLY RAISING THE ALARM ABOUT JUST HOW FAR THE PRESIDENT AND HIS SUPPORTERS MAY BE WILLING TO GO TO HOLD ONTO POWER.

AMONG THEM IS WILLIAM COHEN, A REPUBLICAN FROM MAINE WHO SERVED AS DEFENSE SECRETARY UNDER CLINTON AND JOINED ALL NINE OTHER LIVING DEFENSE SECRETARIES IN A "WASHINGTON POST" OP-ED OVER THE WEEKEND, CALLING FOR A PEACEFUL TRANSITION AND WARNING THAT "TO INVOLVE THE U.S. ARMED FORCES IN RESOLVING ELECTION DISPUTES WOULD TAKE US INTO DANGEROUS, UNLAWFUL, AND UNCONSTITUTIONAL TERRITORY."

EVERY LIVING DEFENSE SECRETARY WORRIED THAT A PRESIDENT MIGHT ENLIST THE MILITARY IN AN ATTEMPTED COUP -- MY WORD, NOT THEIRS.

COHEN ALSO SERVED THREE TERMS IN THE SENATE AND THREE IN THE HOUSE WHERE, AS A FRESHMAN, HE VOTED IN THE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE TO IMPEACH A PRESIDENT OF HIS OWN PARTY, THAT WOULD BE RICHARD NIXON.

SECRETARY COHEN, THANK THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

>> GREAT TO BE WITH YOU.

>> Braude: WAS THERE ONE SPECIFIC THING THAT THE PRESIDENT DID THAT MOTIVATED YOU AND YOUR NINE COLLEAGUES TO ACT?

>> I THINK IT WAS A COMBINATION OR A CULMINATION, I SHOULD SAY, OF STEPS HE HAS TAKEN, THAT HAS INDICATED HE IS WILLING TO DO ANYTHING IN ORDER TO HOLD ON TO POWER.

THERE ARE NO RULES.

THERE ARE NO LAWS, NO REGULATIONS, NOTHING IN HIS MIND CAN RESTRAIN HIM FROM WHATEVER HE WANTS TO DO.

SO WE'VE SEEN INDICATIONS OF THAT IN THE PAST.

I THOUGHT IT WAS PRETTY STRIKING WHEN HE HAD THE CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS AND THE SECRETARY OF DEFENSE, MARK ESPER, ESCORT OR JOIN IN THAT PARADE OF HIS OVER IN LAFAYETTE SQUARE AND USE MILITARY FORCES AS SUCH TO PLOW THROUGH THAT CROWD.

IN ORDER TO HAVE A PHOTO OP WITH A BIBLE.

THAT, ALSO IN COMBINATION WITH WHAT I WOULD CALL A PARAMILITARY OPERATION IN SEATTLE, WASH WORKS, WHEN THEY HAD NINJA PLANNED AGENTS FROM WHAT DEPARTMENT, HOMELAND SECURITY, AND FIRE RUBBER BULLETS INTO THE HEADS OF PROTESTORS, AND TAKING THEM IN UNMARKED CARS DOWN TO A JAIL AND ARRESTING THEM.

THAT WAS AN INDICATION, CERTAINLY, THAT HE WAS WILLING TO GO AS FAR AS POSSIBLE.

THERE WERE NO ENDS TO THAT.

A COMBINATION OF THAT, PLUS THE DISCUSSION OF USING MARTIAL LAW TO OVERTURN THE ELECTION.

THAT WAS FLOATED IN THE WHITE HOUSE.

IT WAS THEN STATED PUBLICLY BY LIEUTENANT GENERAL FLYNN.

I THINK THE CULMINATION OF THAT BROUGHT ALL OF US TO SAY THERE IS SOMETHING VERY DANGEROUS TAKING PLACE HERE.

AND THE PRESIDENT HAS INDICATED, WHEN ASKED ABOUT IN SER INSURRECTION, COULD HE ENFORCE THE MILITARY?

WE WERE TRYING TO STRIKE A PREEMPTIVE STRIKE, SAYING TO DO YOUR DUTY.

>> Braude: HU NO >> Braude: YOU HAD NO INDICATION HE WAS GOING TO DO ANYTHING BUT HIS DUTY?

>> WHEN I SEE HIM CALLING ON THE PROUD BOYS TO COME TO WASHINGTON, IT IS GOING TO BE WILD?

THIS IS SOME OF THE SAME FOLKS THAT TOOK OVER THE CAPITOL IN MICHIGAN.

ONE GROUP THREATENED TO KIDNAP AND BEHEAD THE GOVERNOR OF THE STATE.

ANY TIME THAT A PRESIDENT USES LANGUAGE LIKE THAT, TO SEND THAT KIND OF A SIGNAL OUT TO PEOPLE, HE IS CALLING FOR VIOLENCE IN THE STREET.

WHAT WE WANT TO MAKE SURE IS HE DOESN'T USE THE VIOLENCE HE IS CREATING AS A JUSTIFICATION TO USE THE MILITARY TO QUELL IT.

>> Braude: BUT 74 MILLION OF OUR FELLOW AMERICANS SEEM NOT TO BE TROUBLED BY THIS KIND OF BEHAVIOR BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

WHAT'S YOUR REACTION TO THAT?

WHAT DOES THAT SAY TO YOU?

>> THAT'S TROUBLING.

THE FACT THAT 74 MILLION WHO VOTED FOR HIM, AND MOST OF THEM ARE TOTALLY COMMITTED TO HIM, WHATEVER HE SAYS OR DOES, INDICATES THAT THEY ARE NOT COMMITTED TO THE RULE OF LAW.

THEY'RE COMMITTED TO THE PRESIDENT.

THE RULE OF LAW IS WHAT IS CENTRAL, AND HAS BEEN CENTRAL TO OUR SOCIETY AND OUR GOVERNMENT, AND, FRANKLY, TO THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

WHEN YOU START TO ABANDON THE RULE OF THE LAW, YOU'RE LEFT WITH THE RULE OF THE JUNGLE, WHERE RIGHT MAKES RIGHT.

THEY'RE BEING TOLD TO FOLLOW A LEADER WHO HAS NO REGARD FOR THE LAW.

>> Braude: SPEAKING OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, SOMEWHERE IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD OF 12 REPUBLICAN SENATORS IN THE CHAMBER IN WHICH YOU SERVED FOR ALMOST TWO DECADES, ARE GOING TO STAND UP TOMORROW AND OBJECT TO THE CERTIFICATION OF ELECTORS FROM A HANDFUL OF STATES, WITH ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE, NONE, THAT THERE WAS ANYTHING ON ANY GRAND SCALE THAT WAS INAPPROPRIATE OR FRAUDULENT, DESPITE THE ALLEGATIONS BY THE PRESIDENT.

WHAT'S YOUR REACTION TO THAT, SECRETARY?

>> I DON'T THINK THEY DESERVE THE TITLE OF HONORABLE.

THAT'S A TITLE THAT REPRSENTS PEOPLE THAT ADMIRE AND RESPECT THE OFFICE WHICH THEY HOLD.

FOR ANY OF THE SENATORS TO MAKE THOSE OBJECTIONS BASED ON NO FACTS WHATSOEVER HAVING BEEN PRESENTED, ONLY IN ORDER TO APPEASE THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, WHO HAS LOST THE ELECTION, TO ME MAKES THEM UNWORTHY OF THE TITLE.

>> Braude: TIE I WOULD ARGUE THAT THE PERSON THAT HAS BEEN THE APPEASER IN CHIEF HAS BEEN THE VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

THE CONSTITUTION DESCRIBES MINSTERIAL FUNCTIONS FOR HIM, BUT THE PRESIDENT TWEETED THIS MORNING THAT THE VICE PRESIDENT HAS THE POWER TO REJECT FRAUDULENT ELECTORS.

DO YOU HAVE CONFIDENCE THAT VICE-PRESIDENT PENCE WILL SHOW LOYALTY TO THE CONSTITUTION, RATHER THAN FRAILTY TO THE MAN HE VIEWS AS HIS BOSS?

>> I WOULD EXPECT HE WOULD.

HE HAS BEEN A TRADITIONAL CONSERVATIVE.

IT IS TROUBLING ME THAT HE IS IN A STATE OF EMOTIONAL TURMOIL OR PSYCHOLOGICAL TURMOIL, BETWEEN CHOOSING FRAILTY VERSUS HIS OWN CONSTITUTION.

BUT NOTWITHSTANDING HIM BEING VICE PRESIDENT, I WOULD THINK HE WOULD ABIDE BY HIS CONSTITUTIONAL DUTY AND NOT THE PERSON.

>> Braude: I READ AN INTERVIEW WITH YOU THE OTHER DAY IN WHICH YOU WERE COMFORTABLE WITH THE TERM ATTEMPTED COUP TO DESCRIBE THEBEHAVIORBEHAVIOR OF THE PRESIDENT, AND YOU SAID YES.

IN ANY OF YOUR THINKING, WHERE YOU STEPPED BACK FOR A SECOND AND SAID, I CAN'T BELIEVE I AM DESCRIBING THE BEHAVIOR OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES LIKE THIS IN 20 2020 -- HAVE YOU HAD THOSE OUT-OF-BODY EXPERIENCE MOMENTS?

>> WE HAVE NOT HAD INNER BODY EXPERIENCES.

WE DIDN'T GET TOGETHER PHYSICALLY.

WE BASICALLY HAD A LETTER THAT WAS CIRCULATED, INITIATED BY FORMER SECRETARY OF DEFENSE AND BY FORMER VICE PRESIDENT CHENEY, AND THAT WAS CIRCULATED.

WE ALL HAD A CHANCE TO READ IT AND MODIFY IT.

BUT WE WERE ALL IN TOTAL SIMPATICO, AS SUCH, WITH OUR CONCERNS AND WORRY, AND CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT THIS PRESIDENT HAS DONE AND THE ACTIONS HE HAS TAKEN IN TERMS OF USING AND ABUSING THE MILITARY, THAT WE FELT COMPELLED, WITHOUT HAVING TO SHARE ANY PHONE CONVERSATIONS OR TALK AMONGST OURSELVES, THAT WE ALL KNEW INTUITIVELY WE ARE ON A DANGEROUS PATH IF THE PRESIDENT TAKES THIS KIND OF ACTION TO USE THE MILITARY FOR POLITICAL PURPOSES.

SO WE DIDN'T HAVE TO TALK ABOUT IT.

ALL OF US KNEW EXACTLY WHAT WAS AT RISK.

IT IS OUR COUNTRY AND OUR CONSTITUTION.

>> Braude: ARE YOU WORRIED ABOUT THE FUTURE OF YOUR PARTY?

>> I'M WORRIED ABOUT THE FUTURE OF THE COUNTRY.

I'M WORRIED THAT ONE MAN COULD DRIVE THE EXISTING DIVISIONS -- WE'VE ALWAYS HAD DIVISIONS IN THIS COUNTRY.

THAT'S WHY WE HAVE TWO PARTIES, WE HAVE TWO WAYS OF THINKING ABOUT THE LAW OF GOVERNMENT IN OUR LIVES.

BUT WE HAVE NOT HAD THE KIND OF OPEN HOSTILITY AND GENERATION OF ANGER AND HATE BY A PRESIDENT THAT HAS BEEN DONE BY TRUMP.

HE IS A PRETEND PRESIDENT.

A REAL PRESIDENT WOULD SEEK TO HEAL THE COUNTRY.

A REAL PRESIDENT WOULD GO OUT AND TRY TO GIVE COMFORT TO THE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN HARMED BY COVID AND DIED FROM COVID.

HE HAS NOT SAID A WORD OF COMPASSION.

AND THE IMAGE I HAVE IN MY OWN MIND IS THAT THE LOCAL NATIONAL GUARD IN EL PASO WAS MOVING MOBILE MORGUES INTO PLACE WHILE HE WAS GOING ON A GOLF CART.

WHICH IS SOMETHING THAT TELLS YOU WHAT I THINK ABOUT HIM AS THE COMMANDER IN CHIEF, ABANDONING PEOPLE ON THE BATTLEFIELD WHILE HE GOES TO PLAY GOLF.

>> Braude: BUT YOU DON'T SEEM TO THINK THAT TRUMPISM DISAPPEARS WHEN TRUMP AT LEAST DISAPPEARS FROM THE OVAL OFFICE ON JANUARY 20th, DO YOU?

>> I DON'T.

BECAUSE YOU'VE SEEN SOME OF THE BRIGHTEST OF OUR PARTY IN THE SENATE AND IN THE HOUSE, HIGHLY EDUCATED, WELL-TRAINED INDIVIDUALS, WHO ARE SIGNING ON TO THIS NOTION OF SUPPORTING A REVIEW OR REBUKE OF THE VOTES THAT HAVE TAKEN PLACE BASED ON NO EVIDENCE.

PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS SAID THESE ARE FRAUDULENT, AND PEOPLE ARE ANGRY.

THEY'RE ANGRY BECAUSE YOU'VE TOLD THEM IT IS FRAUDFRAUDULENT.

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT IS REALLY UNPRECEDENTED.

IT IS DANGEROUS.

IT IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL AND UNPATRIOTIC.

>> Braude: SECRETARY, THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE, AND THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME TONIGHT.

>> GREAT DO BE WITH YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> Braude: UNFORTUNATELY, THE MAN I JUST SPOKE WITH, WHO HAS SHOWN HIS WILLINGNESS TO STAND UP TO WRONGS EVEN IN HIS OWN PARTY SEEMS LIKE A BIT OF A POLITICAL ANOMALY THESE DAYS.

JUST ASK SENATORS KELLY LOEFFLER AND DAVID PERDUE, BOTH OF WHO ARE BACKING EFFORTS TO OPPOSE TOMORROW'S COLLEGE ELECTORAL CERTIFICATION, AS THERE ARE RUNOFF ELECTIONS TODAY THAT WILL DECIDE CONTROL OF THE SENATE.

BUT WITH TRUMP'S INCREASINGLY RADICAL BEHAVIOR AND A DEEP DIVIDE IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, IT IS NOT CLEAR IF HITCHING TO HIM WILL BE A WING SCRATCH.

JOINING ME IS KIMBERLY FROM "THE BOSTON GLOBE."

GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> GOOD TO SEE YOU YOU, JIM.

>> Braude: OBVIOUSLY MITCH McCONNELL CONTINUES TO BE THE LEADER OF THE SENATE.

WHAT DOES IT MEAN FOR THE BIDEN AGENDA?

DEAD?

WOUNDED?

TO BE DETERMINED?

WHAT HAPPENS?

>> I THINK TO BE DETERMINED IS THE WAY TO DESCRIBE IT BEST.

OBVIOUSLY PRESIDENT-ELECT BIDEN WILL NEED THE SENATE TO GET HIS AGENDA PASSED.

HE'LL NEED THE SENATE JUST TO CONFIRM HIS CABINET PICKS.

HAVING A DEMOCRATIC-CONTROLLED SENATE WOULD MAKE THINGS MUCH EASIER.

A SPLIT CONGRESS WILL FORCE EVERYONE, NOT JUST THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, BUT MEMBERS OF CONGRESS, TOO, TO TRY TO BUILD CONSENSUS AT A TIME WHEN THE PARTISAN DIVIDE IN WASHINGTON IS STRONGER THAN EVER.

SO IT WILL MAKE IT A MUCH MORE DIFFICULT ROAD, MAYBE A MUCH MORE NARROW AGENDA ITEMS TO BE PASSED.

IT IS A BIG DIFFERENCE.

>> Braude: BUT EVEN IF OSSOFF AND WARNOCK BOTH WIN AND THERE ARE 50 DEMOCRATS, AND VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS BREAKS THE TIE, SHOULD THERE BE A TIE, THIS IS NOT AN EASY ROAD FOR THE DEMOCRATS.

IT IS NOT A MONOLITHIC PARTY.

AND AS A RADIO SHOW MADE CLEAR TODAY, A LOT OF THINGS IN THE SENATE NEED 60 VOTES TO HAPPEN.

SO OBVIOUSLY HE WOULD PREFER TWO DEMOCRATIC WINS TONIGHT, BUT IT IS NOT AN ESEE PATHEASY PATH FOR THIS PRESIDENT AND THIS PARTY EVEN IF THEY WIN BOTH, CORRECT?

>> YES, THAT'S CORRECT.

THERE ARE DEFINITELY DIVISIONS AND DIFFERENT ASPECTS TO THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

BUT BY AND LARGE, THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY HAS SHOWN ITSELF TO BE MORE UNIFIED THAN REPUBLICANS.

AND HAVING THAT SPLIT, FORCING REPUBLICANS TO WORK WITH DEMOCRATS AND CHUCK SCHUMER ON THE SENATE SIDE COULD RESULT IN SOME MOVEMENT IN AREAS LIKE INFRASTRUCTURE, AREAS THAT YOU CAN GET MORE MODERATE AND DARE I SAY MORE REASONABLE REPUBLICANS IN THE SENATE, LIKE MITT ROMNEY AND OTHERS, TO JOIN ON EFFORTS TO GET THINGS DONE, TO MOVE LEGISLATION FORWARD.

REMEMBER, JOE BIDEN SPENT A LOT OF TIME IN THAT CHAMBER, AND HE KNOWS THE FOLKS THERE AND HOW IT OPERATES.

SO HAVING THAT 50 IS NOT PERFECTION, IT IS NOT 60, FOR SURE, BUT IT PUTS HIM IN A BETTER STARTING SPOT AS HE SEEKS TO PUT HIS AGENDA IN MOTION.

>> Braude: TODAY IS HUGE, AND TOMORROW IS HUGE, TOO.

I WANT TO QUOTE BACK TO YOU A LINE: "THE COUNTRY NEEDS TO TURN THE PAGE, NOT JUST ON TRUMP, BUT THE TOXIC BRAND OF CONSPIRACYISM -- I DIDN'T KNOW THAT WAS A WORD -- HE HAS MAINSTREAMED INTO AMERICAN POLITICS."

IS THERE ANY REASON TO THINK EITHER OF THOSE THINGS WILL HAPPEN?

>> IT IS VERY DIFFICULT.

IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO CHANGE THE MINDS OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN LED TO BELIEVE THAT THE DEMOCRATS HAVE SOMEHOW STOLEN AN ELECTION.

DONALD TRUMP HAS DONE A GREAT DEAL OF WORK, AND THOSE WHO SUPPORT HIM, IN PUSHING THAT LIE AND GETTING PEOPLE TO BELIEVE IT.

SO THE RESULTS OF THAT WILL -- AMERICANS WILL HAVE TO LIVE WITH THAT FOR A LONG TIME.

WHAT YOU WILL NEED ARE OTHER LEADERS TO STAND UP, STARTING TOMORROW, AND SAY, WITH A CLEAR VOICE, THAT THAT DID NOT HAPPEN, THAT DEMOCRACY WORKED, AND THAT DEMOCRACY WORKED DESPITE A PANDEMIC, AND DESPITE A PROTEST IN THE STREET FOR JUSTICE.

VOTERS WERE ABLE TO GO TO THE POLLS IN RECORD NUMBERS AND MAKE THEIR VOICES HEARD.

LEADERS MUST STAND UP AND REMIND FOLKS OF THAT SO THAT DEMOCRACY CAN BE SAVED BECAUSE DEMOCRACY IS ONLY AS STRONG AS THE PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE AND PROTECT IT.

>> Braude: YEAH, BUT IT TURNS OUT THAT THE TWO DEMOCRATS -- IF THE TWO DEMOCRATS WIN TONIGHT, THE ASSUMPTION THAT IS IMPLICIT IN WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, IS THAT DONALD TRUMP IS NOT GOING TO SAY THE EXACT SAME THING ABOUT THE SENATE ELECTIONS THAT HE SAID ABOUT THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION IN GEORGIA, THE ELECTIONS WERE STOLEN FROM KELLY LOEFFLER AND THEY WERE STOLEN FROM DAVID PERDUE, AND ON AND ON IT GOES.

AND 70% OF REPUBLICANS THINK THAT THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION WAS STOLEN.

AND THERE IS NO REASON THAT THEY CAN'T BE CONVINCED THAT THE GEORGIA SENATE SEATS WERE STOLEN, TOO, NO?

>> I THINK YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, JIM.

WHAT THE PRESIDENT IS DOING IS DEEPLY, DEEPLY DAMAGING TO DEMOCRACY, TO THE FAITH IN ELECTION SYSTEMS.

AND THERE IS NO EASY, MAGIC PILL TO FIX THAT, EVEN WHEN DONALD TRUMP IS OUT OF OFFICE.

THAT WON'T BE THE CASE BECAUSE HE IS STILL GOING TO USE WHATEVER PLATFORM HE IS GIVEN.

AND HE IS STILL, AS WE'VE SEEN BY THE ACTIONS OF THE REPUBLICANS WHO PLAN TO LAUNCH THESE OBJECTIONS TOMORROW, HE WILL STILL BE LEADER OF THAT PARTY, EVEN AFTER HE LEAVES THE WHITE HOUSE.

IT IS A PROBLEM FOR AMERICA AND A BIG PROBLEM FOR REPUBLICANS AS THEY TRY TO FIGURE OUT WHAT THEIR FUTURE HOLDS WITH THEIR LEADER, SOMEONE WHO IS ESSENTIALLY LYING TO THE PUBLIC AND TRYING TO DESTROY DEMOCRACY.

>> Braude: I WANT TO SPEND A MINUTE ON TOMORROW.

I'M RARELY OPTIMISTIC ABOUT ANYTHING THESE DAYS.

I'M OF TWO MINDS.

ONE MIND IS WITH THESE 140 OR SOME HOUSE MEMBERS AND THE TRUMP 12, OR WHATEVER THEY ARE IN THE SENATE, WHO ARE GOING TO CHALLENGE THIS ELECTION BASED ON NOTHING, IT MEANS A PARTISAN DIVIDE FOREVER.

THE OTHER MIND I AM IS THAT THEIR BEHAVIOR IS SO IRRATIONAL, SO RADICAL, SO EXTRA CONSTITUTIONAL, THAT THEY MAY DRIVE THE SANE REPUBLICANS, LET'S CALL IT THE ROMNEY CAUCUS, THE SASSE CAUCUS, INTO MORE COMPROMISE WITH JOE BIDEN.

IS THAT HOPELESSLY NAIVE ON MY PART, OR NO?

>> I DON'T THINK SO.

I THINK WE COULD SEE SOME ASPECT OF BOTH OF THOSE THINGS HAPPENING AT THE SAME TIME.

I THINK YOU DO HAVE REPUBLICANS WHO ARE INTENT ON TRYING TO GET SOMETHING DONE WITH THE LITTLE BIT OF POWER THAT THEY HAVE, IF THEY DO LOSE THE LEADERSHIP IN THE SENATE.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, THIS PARTISAN DIVISION ISN'T GOING AWAY AT ALL.

AND I THINK IT IS JUST IMPORTANT TO SAY WHAT WILL AND WON'T HAPPEN TOMORROW.

THE VOTES HAVE ALREADY BEEN CERTIFIED.

WHAT VICE-PRESIDENT PENCE WILL DO IS BASICALLY ACT LIKE A SCOREBOARD KEEPER, LIKE HE IS INSIDE THE GREEN MONSTER, PUTTING UP THE SCORE.

AND THAT'S IT.

HE DOESN'T HAVE ANYMORE POWER.

THIS IS A SHOW FOR AN AUDIENCE OF ONE, BEING PUT ON BY TRUMP'S MOST LOYAL SUPPORTERS IN THE SENATE AND IN THE HOUSE.

>> Braude: I ONLY HAVE 15 SECONDS LEFT.

WHICH MADE YOU HAPPIER, YOUR RELATIVELY NEW JOB AT THE GLOBE, OR THE FACT THAT YOU GOT A 10 OUT OF 10 FROM ROOM RAIDER FOR YOUR BACKGROUND?

>> I'M THRILLED TO BE BACK AT THE GLOBE, WHERE I STARTED MY CAREER.

THE ROOM RAIDER WAS THE CHERRY AT THE TOP.

>> Braude: THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> YOU, TOO.

>> Braude: IF YOU SPEND ANY TIME AT ALL ON SOCIAL MEDIA, YOU'RE PROBABLY WELL AWARE OF THE SO-CALLED CALL-OUT OR CANCEL CULTURE, WHICH MEANS THE SHUNNING OR PUBLIC SHAMING OF SOMEONE WHO HAS SAID OR OR DONE SOME PROBLEMATIC.

MY NEXT GUEST IS LONG TIME FEMINIST LORETTA ROSS, WHO IS NOW TEACHING A CLASS ON THE PITFALLS OF CALL-OUT CULTURE.

IN IT AS SHE EXPLAINS IN A RECENT PROFILE IN THE "NEW YORK TIMES," SHE CHALLENGES HER STUDENTS TO CALL PEOPLE IN AND DISCUSS PROBLEMS INSTEAD.

AND SHE IS COMING OUT WITH A BOOK ON THE SAME SUBJECT, CALLED "CALLING IN THE CALL-OUT CULTURE."

SHE WAS NAMED ONE OF MS. MAGAZINE'S TOP FEMINISTS, ALONG WITH ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ AND STACEY ABRAMS AND VICE PRESIDENT-ELECT KAMALA HARRIS.

NICE TO HAVE YOU ON THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME ON THE SHOW.

>> Braude: WHAT IS CALLING IN?

>> CALLING IN IS A CALLING OUT DONE WITH LOVE AND RESPECT.

YOU PAY ATTENTION TO THE HARM, BUT INSTEAD OF PUTTING SOMEBODY ON FULL BLAST WITH YOUR ANGER, YOU'RE OFFERING THEM THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT AND SAYING, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU SAID THAT, I'M NOT SURE YOU MEANT IT TO LAND THAT WAY.

CAN WE GO TALK ABOUT IT?

IT IS REALLY CALLING ATTENTION AND HOLDING PEOPLE ACCOUNTABLE OF KEEPING THEIR HUMANITY IN FRONT OF YOUR HEAD.

>> Braude: AS SOMEBODY WHO OCCASIONALLY FINDS CALLING OUT TO BE INCREDIBLY SATISFYING, WHY IS CALLING IN PREFERABLE?

>> WELL, I LIKE CALLING OUT WITH THE BEST OF THEM.

BUT I TRY TO PUNCH UPWARDS, REALLY (laughing).

[LAUGHTER] >> I WANT TO HOLD PEOPLE ACCOUNTABLE BY CALLING THEM OUT, WHO ABUSE THEIR POWER AND AUTHORITY.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, I'M NOT GOING TO PUNCH SIDEWAYS OF PEOPLE WHO DON'T KNOW THE RIGHT LANGUAGE, OR GET MY GENDER PRONOUN WRONG, AND CERTAINLY I'M NEVER GOING TO PUNCH DOWNWARD ON PEOPLE WHO ARE MORE VULNERABLE THAN ME WHO CAN'T FIGHT BACK.

I LOVE CALLING OUT.

I CAN DO THAT WITH THE BEST OF THEM.

BUT I'M TRYING TO USE IT SELECTIVELY.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, I THINK YOU SAID, WHEN YOU JOINED US ON THE RADIO, THAT FOR THIS TO WORK, THE PERSON WHO WOULD BE CALLED IN HAS TO, QUOTE, "OWN THEIR STUFF."

SO LET ME GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE, THE ONE THAT I BROACHED WITH YOU THE FIRST TIME WE TALKED, AGAIN, IF I CAN.

YOU'RE QUOTED IN THAT "NEW YORK TIMES" PROFILE SAYING I DON'T LIKE IT WHEN SOMEBODY DOES SOMETHING AS A TEENAGER AND THEY'RE STILL HELD ACCOUNTABLE AT 55 YEARS OLD.

BRETT KAVANAUGH IS 55 YEARS OLD TODAY -- THIS YEAR.

53 YEARS OLD WHEN HE WAS ACCUSED BY CHRISTINE BLASEY FORD IN THE CONGRESS OF SEXUALLY ASSAULTING HER AS A TEENAGER.

IF KAVANAUGH WAS WILLING TO QUOTE OWN HIS STUFF, WOULD IT BE BETTER FOR CHRISTINE BLASEY FORD TO HAVE THAT CALLING IN -- >> IT DEPENDS ON WHEN HE OWNED HIS STUFF.

YOU WAIT UNTIL YOU GET NOMINATED BEFORE THE SUPREME COURT, AND THEN YOU'RE GOING TO ADMIT THAT YOU'VE DONE SOMETHING WRONG, WHEN THERE WAS PLENTY OF TIME FOR YOU TO HAVE ADMITTED THAT MUCH BEFORE THEN.

YOU CAN'T MAKE IT TRANSACTIONAL.

YOU CAN'T SAY I'M ONLY GOING TO CONFESS TO THIS BECAUSE I'VE GOT AN OPPORTUNITY ON THE LINE.

YOU HAVE TO HAVE SINCERE REGRET AND MAKE REPARATIONS FOR THE HARM WELL BEFORE IT BECOMES A TRANSACTIONAL DEAL FOR YOURSELF.

THAT IS SELF-SERVING.

>> Braude: LET'S ASSUME THAT A GENERIC BRETT KAVANAUGH DOES OWN HIS STUFF, NOT AT THAT MOMENT WHERE IT HELPS HIM, BUT AT AN APPROPRIATE MOMENT, WHERE IN YOUR THINKING DOES THE OBLIGATION OF THE HARMED PERSON COME IN TO ALERT PEOPLE BEYOND THE PERSON WHO DID HIM OR HER WRONG?

DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

TO LET THE WORLD KNOW THAT THERE IS A THREAT OUT THERE?

>> SEE, I'M ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE THAT BELIEVES IF YOU HAVE BAD NEWS THAT YOU KNOW ABOUT YOURSELF, WHY NOT BE THE FIRST ONE TO TELL IT?

THAT WAY YOU CONTROL THE NARRATIVE, AND YOU CAN OFFER SINCERE CONTRITION.

BUT IF THE HARMED PERSON HAS TO BE THE ONE TO TELL ON YOU, YOU'VE AUTOMATICALLY PUT YOURSELF IN A WORST POSITION BECAUSE THEN THE PERSON YOU'VE HARMED CONTROLS THE NARRATIVE; YOU DON'T.

TAKING RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE STUPID THINGS OR THE WRONG THINGS OR THE PROBLEMATIC THINGS WE DO IS PART OF ADULTHOOD.

AS YOU BECOME AN ADULT, YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO LOOK YOUR MISTAKES IN THE EYE AND MAKE A COMMITMENT NOT TO DO THEM AGAIN.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, ABOUT A WEEK OR SO AGO, I WAS READING ABOUT LEGENDARY CIVIL RIGHTS LEADER C.T.

VIVIENNE, AND I HAVE FORGOTTEN AT THE TIME WHAT A PIVOTAL ROLE HE PLAYED IN YOUR LIFE, INCLUDING THE DEVELOPMENT OF THIS KIND OF PROJECT TO PROBLEM SOLVING.

WHAT ROLE DID HE PLAY?

>> WELL, IN 1995, I WAS WORKING AT THE CENTER CENTER FOR DEMOCRATIC RENEWAL.

I HAD GOTTEN THE JOB IN 1990, AND IT WAS RIGHT AFTER THE OKLAHOMA CITY BOMBING.

AND REVEREND VIVIENNE CAME TO THE OFFICE AND BASICALLY SAID TO US, WHEN YOU ASK PEOPLE TO GIVE UP HATE, THEN YOU NEED TO BE THERE FOR THEM WHEN THEY DO.

AND THIS IS SOMETHING HE HAD SAID SEVERAL TIMES BEFORE.

BUT SOMEHOW AFTER OKLAHOMA CITY, IT SUNK IN, FOR ME, AT LEAST.

THAT ALL OF THIS ANGER, ALL OF THIS RAGE THAT I USED TO USE AS MY FUEL TO FIGHT THE KU KLUX KLAN AND THE ARYAN NATIONS, IT WASN'T THE PATHWAY FORWARD.

IT WAS ABOUT, FIRST OF ALL, FORGIVING MYSELF SO THAT I COULD FIND THE CAPACITY TO FORGIVE OTHERS.

AND REVEREND VIVIENNE MADE THAT SO CLEAR.

AND HE SAID IT OVER AND OVER AGAIN, BUT I'M HARD-HEADED, SO IT TOOK SEVERAL YEARS FOR ME TO GET IT.

BUT HE WAS SO RIGHT.

HE WAS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

>> Braude: SO FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE CONVINCED THAT YOUR WAY AND REVEREND VIVIENNE'S WAY IS THE WAY TO GO, HOW HARD, IF NOT IMPOSSIBLE, IS IT TO FOLLOW THAT PATH IN AN ENVIRONMENT LIKE WE HAVE TODAY, WHERE HALF THE POPULATION IS CALLING OUT THE OTHER HALF OF THE POPULATION VIRTUALLY EVERY MINUTE, AND THE OTHER HALF IS CALLING OUT THE FIRST HALF EVERY OTHER MINUTE.

DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

IN THIS ENVIRONMENT, IS IT POSSIBLE TO DO WHAT YOU'RE SUGGESTING?

>> OH, I DON'T THINK IT IS EVER IMPOSSIBLE TO DO WHAT WE'RE SUGGESTING.

THINK ABOUT THE POOR MOTHER, BACK IN THE DAYS OF THE CIVIL WAR, WHICH SHE HAD ONE SON JOIN THE CONFEDERACY AND ONE SON WORK FOR THE UNION?

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT HUMAN BEINGS HAVE TO DEAL WITH.

HOW DO WE DEAL WITH CONFLICTS BOTH IN OUR FAMILIES AND OUR SOCIETY?

WE NEED TO GROW UP, BASICALLY.

AND SPEAKING OF GROWING UP, I WANT TO SAY HOWEVER MISTAKES WERE HANDLED WHEN YOU WERE A CHILD, IT IS GOING TO BE THE PATTERN YOU USE AS AN ADULT.

SO IF YOU WEREN'T TRAINED TO SELF-FORGIVE YOUR MISTAKES AND LEARN FROM THEM, GUESS WHAT?

AS AN ADULT, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO SELF-FORGIVE YOUR MISTAKES AND LEARN FROM THEM.

SO WHEN I TEACH THIS STUFF, I TEACH PEOPLE ABOUT GOING BACK AND LEARNING AND REVISITING WHERE THEY LEARNED HOW TO HANDLE THEIR MISTAKES AND OTHER PEOPLE'S MISTAKES, AND REALLY POINT OUT THOSE SIGNS WHERE SOMEONE OFFERS THEM GRACE AND FORGIVENESS, AND SEE IF THEY CAN REPLICATE IT FOR OTHERs.

>> Braude: LORETTA ROSS, I'M GOING TO TRY IT.

AND I CAN'T WAIT FOR YOUR BOOK.

IT IS GREAT TO SEE YOU.

>> THANKS AGAIN.

>> Braude: THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT.

THANKS FOR WATCHING.

WE'LL BE BACK TOMORROW.

AND, OF COURSE, STAY SAFE.

Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org