>> Neisloss: I'M LIZ NEISLOSS.

TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON," MASSACHUSETTS HAS A NEW GOVERNOR.

WE'LL LOOK BACK ON AN HISTORIC INAUGURATION DAY FOR THE STATE.

AND AHEAD, WHAT TO EXPECT FROM MAURA HEALEY IN HER FIRST 100 DAYS.

THEN LATER THE LIFE AND LEGACY OF POPE BENEDICT XVI AND WHAT IT MEANS FOR THE FUTURE OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

>> Neisloss: IT'S NOW OFFICIAL: MAURA HEALEY IS THE GOVERNOR OF MASSACHUSETTS.

IN A HISTORY-MAKING MOMENT THIS MORNING, THE FORMER ATTORNEY GENERAL TOOK THE OATH OF OFFICE AND THEN DELIVERED HER INAUGURAL ADDRESS.

>> I ASSUME THIS OFFICE AS THE FIRST WOMAN AND FIRST GAY PERSON EVER ELECTED GOVERNOR OF MASSACHUSETTS.

IN THIS STATE, WE'RE ALL TRAILBLAZERS.

WE'RE ALL LEADERS.

THAT'S WHY WE LIVE IN MASSACHUSETTS.

NO MATTER THE CHALLENGES WE FACE, NO MATTER WHAT LIES AHEAD, WE WILL STAY TRUE TO THE BEST OF OURSELVES.

WE WILL ACT WITH EMPATHY AND EQUITY.

AND WE WILL WORK TOGETHER.

>> Neisloss: BUT ONCE ALL OF THE POMP AND CIRCUMSTANCE DIES DOWN, HEALEY WILL HAVE TO HIT THE GROUND RUNNING ON A SERIES OF PROBLEMS PLAGUING THE STATE, FROM THE EVER-EMBATTLED M.B.T.A.

AND AN AFFORDABLE HOUSING CRISIS, TO A FAST-SPREADING NEW VARIANT OF COVID.

SO WHAT CAN WE EXPECT TO SEE FROM GOVERNOR HEALEY IN THE NEXT FEW DAYS, WEEKS, AND MONTHS?

I'M JOINED NOW BY ERIN O'BRIEN, AN ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF POLITICAL SCIENCE AT UMASS BOSTON; AND GBH NEWS POLITCAL EDITOR PETER KADZIS.

WELCOME TO YOU BOTH.

ERIN, LET'S START WITH YOU.

DOES MAURA HEALEY, SHE'S A KNOWN COMMODITY, DOES SHE GET A HONEYMOON PERIOD, AS SOME INCOMING POLITICIANS DO?

>> MY THEORY ON THIS IS THAT MOST POLITICIANS GET 100 DAYS.

IF YOU'RE A PERSON OF COLOR OTHER IF YOU'RE A WOMAN, YOU GET MAYBE 50-33 DAYS.

SO, YES, I THINK THERE'S A HONEYMOON, BUT MAYBE NOT QUITE AS LONG AS SOME OF THE GUYS HAVE ENJOYED.

>> Neisloss: OKAY, PETER, YOU HAVE A SIMILAR RECIPE?

>> I'M NOT SO SURE HOW LONG THE HONEYMOON WILL BE.

I THINK SHE'LL HAVE ONE.

THE REASON I SAY THAT IS GETTING THE MASSACHUSETTS LEGISLATURE TO DO ANYTHING, EVEN IN 100 DAYS,INGS IS PRETTY TOUGH.

>> Neisloss: WELL, SHE HAS WHAT SOME PEOPLE CALL "THE TRIFECTA" RIGHT: THE SENATE, THE HOUSE, THE GOVERNOR, ALL OF THE SAME PARTY.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT'S GOING TO MEAN?

>> IT SHOULD MEAN GOING IN SMOOTHER SAILING THAN YOU MIGHT EXPECT.

LISTEN, THE MOST PROMISING BIT OF POLITICAL INTELLIGENCE I HEARD RECENTLY WAS THAT A FEW DAYS BEFORE HER INAUGURATION, SHE WAS SEEN AT THE UMASS CLUB HAVING LUNCH WITH FORMER SPEAKER BOB DeLEO.

SHE WAS CLEARLY BEING PRIMED FOR HOW THE DEAL WITH THE LEGISLATURE.

SEE, THE GOVERNOR IS AT HER BEST WHEN THERE'S A CRISIS.

WHEN IT COMES TO MAKING LONG-TERM POLICY, SHE NEEDS THE ASSENT OF THE LEGISLATURE, AND THEY CAN BE A PRICKLY BUNCH.

HER INAUGURAL ADDRESS, HOWEVER, WAS TERRIFIC.

SHE LAID OUT SOME VERY CLEAR AND SPECIFIC GOALS, ESPECIALLY TOWARDS HOUSING.

AND IF SHE COULD GET THE NEW-- THE SECRETARYSHIP FOR IT HOUSING ESTABLISHED IN THE FIRST 100 DAYS, I'D SAY SHE'D BE OFF TO A VERY GOOD START DISPLE OKAY, WELL YOU'RE A BIT AHEAD OF ME, PETER, BUT SINCE YOU MENTIONED IT, LET'S HEAR WHAT SHE HAD TO SAY ON HOUSING IN HER INAUGURAL ADDRESS.

>> WE'LL USE PROPERTY THAT BELONGS TO THE PEOPLE TO HELP THE PEOPLE.

I'VE ALREADY DIRECTED MY SECRETARY OF ADMINISTRATION AND FINANCE TO IDENTIFY UNUSED STATE-OWNED LAND THAT WE CAN TURN INTO RENTAL HOUSING OR HOMES WITHIN ONE YEAR.

WE'LL GET FIRST-TIME HOMEBUYERS THE HELP THEY NEED AND REDUCE COSTS FOR RENTERS BY EXPANDING TAX DEDUCTIONS.

( APPLAUSE ) >> Neisloss: ERIN, IS SHE PROPOSING SOMETHING RADICAL HERE?

WE'VE SEEN A LITTLE BIT OF THIS ALREADY FROM MAYOR WU.

>> NOT AT ALL RADICAL.

I MEAN, THAT'S MUSIC TO MASSACHUSETTS RESIDENTS' EARS, REGARDLESS OF YOUR PARTISANSHIP AND WHO YOU VOTED FOR.

WE HAVE A HOUSING CRISIS.

SHE TALKED ABOUT AN AFFORDABILITY CRISE.

SHE TALKED ABOUT A CHILD CARE CRISIS.

THOSE ARE ALL, INDEED, HUGE PROBLEMS IN MASSACHUSETTS.

HER NAMING THEM AND HAVING SPECIFIC IDEAS AND SPECIFIC CENTERS IN WHICH HER ADMINISTRATION WILL DEAL WITH THEM IS SPECIFIC, AND IT IS NECESSARY.

>> Neisloss: PETER, YOU SEE ANYTHING SHE SHOULD BE DOING ON HOUSING, ANY PARTICULAR POWER SHE SHOULD BE TAKING?

>> I THINK-- I WOULD STAND BEHIND HER MOVE TO HAVE A SPECIAL CABINET SECRETARY NAMED.

THAT WOULD COVER A LOT OF GROUND, RATHER THAN DISSIPATING HER ENERGIES AND TRYING TO DO A LITTLE BIT HERE AND A LITTLE BIT THERE.

I ACTUALLY THINK IT'S A QUITE NOVEL IDEA.

>> Neisloss: SHE TALKED ABOUT PEOPLE LEAVING MASSACHUSETTS IN DROVES.

SHE SAID THEY ARE EXITING THE STATE MORE THAN ANY OTHER STATE IN THE UNION.

DO YOU THINK HOUSING IS A BIG PART OF THAT?

>> OH, SURE.

THE COST OF LIVING IS PART OF IT, AND HOUSING IS, YOU KNOW, UNLESS YOU'RE A GAZILLIONAIRE, HOUSING IS YOUR SINGLE LARGEST COST.

IT'S A VERY, VERY SERIOUS PROBLEM.

WE THINK OF MASSACHUSETTS AS BEING THIS-- THIS GOLDEN STATE THAT ATTRACTS PEOPLE FROM ALL OVER.

PEOPLE CAN'T AFFORD TO STAY HERE.

>> Neisloss: ERIN, DO YOU SEE OTHER PLAYERS SHE COULD SHORE UP THAT EXODUS, ANYTHING ELSE SHE SHOULD BE FOCUSED ON?

>> I MEAN, SHE TALKED ABOUT CHILD CARE.

LIKE PETER SAID, SHE TALKED ABOUT MASSACHUSETTS AS THE GREATEST STATE IN THE NATION.

SHE TALKED ABOUT THIS IDEA OF MASSACHUSETTS EXCEPTIONALISM THAT WE DO IT BETTER HERE.

WE HAVE THE FIRST PUBLIC LIBRARY, WE WERE FIRST IN GAY MARRIAGE, FIRST IN PUBLIC SCHOOL, OUR CONSTITUTION IS THE MODEL.

AND SHEN SHE SAID, HEY, IF WE'RE SO SPECIAL, WE NEED TO FIX THOSE THINGS.

AND I THOUGHT THAT WAS A VERY-- A POETIC USE OF MASSACHUSETTS EXCEPTIONALISM TO CAJOLE US INTO BETTER HOUSING, CAJOLE US INTO AFFORDABLE CHILD CARE.

>> Neisloss: SO IF CHILD CARE IS SUCH A MAJOR FACTOR, WHAT POWER DOES SHE HAVE?

ONE OF THE BIG ISSUES IS SALARIES AREN'T HIGH ENOUGH?

WHAT CAN SHE DO ABOUT SOMETHING LIKE THAT?

>> SHE TALKED ABOUT THIS COMMON STREET BILL THAT WOULD ESSENTIALLY SCALE HOW MUCH YOU'RE PAYING IN CHILD CARE TO YOUR INCOME, AS I UNDERSTAND IT.

IT WOULD BE NO MORE THAN 7% OF YOUR INCOME THAT YOU TAKE HOME.

SO YOU'RE RIGHT, HE'S GOING TO NEED PARTNERS IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR, WAGES, YOU KNOW, MINIMUM WAGE JUST WENT UP.

SO IT'S NOT-- I THINK HER NAMING IT IS IN PART OF THE DIFFERENCE OF A FEMALE GOVERNOR.

AND SHE DID HAVE A SPECIFIC UNDERNEATH THERE WITH THAT COMMON STREET BILL.

IS IT SNEFERG IS NO.

BUT IT'S DAY ONE IN A SPEECH.

I THINK A LOT OF US WILL GIVE HER A LITTLE TIME TO FIX THAT ONE.

>> Neisloss: ANOTHER PLACE SHE HAS REALLY PUT HERSELF OUT IN FRONT IS ON CLIMATE.

SHE SAYS SHE WILL BE THE MOST CLIMATE-ACTIVE GOVERNOR IN THE COUNTRY.

HERE'S WHAT SHE HAD TO SAY IN HER INAUGURAL ON CLIMATE.

>> TOMORROW, I AM SUBMITTING AN FIRST EXECUTIVE ORDER TO CREATE THE COUNTRY'S FIRST CABINET-LEVEL CLIMATE CHIEF, REPORTING DIRECTLY TO ME.

FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER IN OUR STATE A HISTORY I WILL PROPOSE WE COMMIT AT LEAST 1% OF THE STATE BUDGET TO ENVIRONMENTAL AND ENERGY ATLANTIC CITIES.

WE WILL TRIPLE THE BUDGET OF THE CLEAN ENERGY CENTER.

LET'S COMMIT TO MAKING CLIMATE INNOVATION THE NEXT BIG INVESTMENT, OUR NEXT FIRST, OUR NEXT FRONTIER.

>> Neisloss: PETER, WHERE DO YOU THINK SHE HAS TO PUT HER ENERGIES ON CLIMATE?

>> WELL, IT DEPENDS ON HOW YOU DEFINE "CLIMATE."

CLIMATE MEANS ENERGY, AND WHAT WILL HER STANCE BE ON NATURAL GAS?

THERE'S A STRONG LOBBY IN THE STATE THAT WANTS ALL FOSSIL FUELS ABOLISHED.

AS A MATTER OF FACT, I'M PRETTY SURE THEY'RE SCHEDULED TO BE PICKETING HER INAUGURAL GALA TONIGHT.

I THINK SAFE GROUND, "OF COURSE,s IS WIND AND SOLAR, RENEWABLES.

BUT, AGAIN, IT'S HOW YOU DEFINE CLIMATE, AND THAT INTERSECTS AND/OR COLLIDES WITH FOSSIL FUELS.

SO THAT'S A A KNOTTY PROBLEM.

>> Neisloss: YOU PICK UP ON A POINT SHE WILL HAVE TO DEAL WITH, AN ISSUE THAT REQUIRES WORKING WITH BOTH PUBLIC AND PRIVATE SECTOR, BRINGING IN BUSINESS.

BUT THERE WILL BE A LOT OF PRESSURE FROM MORE PROGRESSIVE ORGANIZATIONS.

DO YOU THINK THAT THIS WILL BE A MOMENT, NOW THAT SHE HAS SORT OF MOVED ON FROM BEING UNDER BAKER'S SHADOW, THAT SHE WILL BE PUSHED FURTHER TO THE LEFT BY THINGS LIKE CLIMATE AND OTHER CAUSES, ERIN?

IS IT.

>> I THINK SHE WANTS TO GO TO THE LEFT ON CLIMATE.

THAT'S IN KEEPING WITH WHO SHE IS.

YOU KNOW, I'M NEAR THE WEYMOUTH COMPRESSOR STATION, SHE COULD COME IN THERE AND TRY TO WORK TO SHUT THAT DOWN, BE PROACTIVE IN THAT WAY.

AND YOUNG VOTERS WANT HER TO DELIVER ON THE ENVIRONMENT.

BUT IN OTHER REALMS, I DON'T THINK SHE'LL BE PUSHED TOEST THE LEFT BECAUSE SHE BEAT SONIA CHANG-DIAZ, A MORE PROGRESSIVE, TALENTED POLITICIAN, SHE BEAT HER HANDILY.

ONCE YOU WIN, YOU WIN BIG IN THE PRIMARY, AND YOU WIN BIG IN THE PRIMARY ELECTION WITHOUT THE FULL BACKING OF TOTAL PROGRESSIVES, MAURA HEALEY HAS SHOWN SHE DOESN'T NEED THEM BUT SHE WANTS THEM ON THINGS LIKE THE ENVIRONMENT AND I THINK THEY'LL WORK TOGETHER WELL ON THAT ISSUE, BUT MAYBE NOT SO GOOD ON SOME OTHERS.

>> Neisloss: PETER, HOW DO YOU THINK SHE WILL BE DIFFERENT FROM BAKER?

HOW DO SEE HER DISTINGUISHING HERSELF?

DURING THE CAMPAIGN, A LOT WAS MADE OF THE FACT THAT SHE WAS SOMEWHAT, AS OUR COLLEAGUE ADAM REILLY SAID, SOMEWHAT BAKER-ESQUE.

HOW DID YOU THINK SHE'S GOING TO DISTINGUISH HERSELF NOW?

>> BY BAKER-ESQUE-- I CAN'T SPEAK FOR ADAM, BUT I CAN INTERPRET HIM-- I THINK WHAT ADAM WAS SAYING IS THAT SHE MAINTAINS A CALM DEMEANOR, THAT SHE'S NOT, IN TELEVISION TERMS, A "HOT PERSONALITY."

AND THAT CAME THROUGH IN HER INAUGURAL.

SHE WAS VERY PERSUASIVE, AT TIMES BEING VERY PERSONAL, PREACHER/TEACHER.

THAT'S THE SIMILARITY WITH BAKER.

SHE'S MORE FORTHCOMING.

WHEN SHE'S FORTHCOMING-- WHICH ISN'T ALWAYS-- SHE'S MORE FORTHCOMING THAN BAKER.

SHE DOES TILT LEFT.

IT REMAINS TO BE SEEN HOW LEFT SHE IS.

BAKER TILTS RIGHT.

BAKER WAS A GREAT COMPROMISER, AND IN A WAY, BAKER HAD AN ADVANTAGE BEING A REPUBLICAN WITH THE LEGISLATURE BECAUSE HIS APPROVAL RATINGS WERE SO HIGH, THE LEGISLATURE WOULD HAVE TO THINK TWICE BEFORE THEY TOOK HIM ON.

AND THEY TOOK HIM ON A LOT OF TIMES, BUT THEY DID IT QUIETLY AND SULTSY SUBTLY AND ALLOWED HIM SODEAF FACE.

THE WHOLE KEY TO HER GOVERNORSHIP IS GOING TO BE HER RELATIONSHIP WITH THE LEGISLATURE, ESPECIALLY THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

>> Neisloss: AND HER RELATIONSHIPS IN WASHINGTON.

HOW WILL THAT BE DIFFERENT FROM BAKER?

>> I'M NOT SURE IT WILL BE THAT DIFFERENT.

I MEAN, THE WHOLE CONGREGATION-- DELEGATION, RATHER-- IN WASHINGTON-- IS DEDICATED TO TRYING TO BRING HOME THE BACON FOR MASSACHUSETTS.

THEY HAVEN'T BEEN DOING A VERY GOOD JOB LATELY, THOUGH.

I MEAN, AS THE FUNDING ABOUT REBUILDING THE CAPE COD BRIDGES IS NOW IN DEEP, DEEP QUESTION.

>> Neisloss: ERIN, ARE YOU IN AGREEMENT ON THAT, SHE WON'T HAVE MUCH MORE LUCK IN WASHINGTON?

>> I MEAN, SHE HAS WILLING PARTNERS IN THE MASSACHUSETTS DELEGATION.

YOU KNOW, BAKER AND MARTY WALSH HAD A GOOD RELATIONSHIP.

BUT IN A MASSACHUSETTS PUNCHES ABOVE ITS WEIGHT IN D.C., AND I THINK THEY'LL CONTINUE TO.

LISTEN, THE MASSACHUSETTS DELEGATION HAS EVERY REASON IN THE WORLD TO WORK WELL WITH HER.

INDEED, SHE'S A FELLOW DEMOCRAT.

SO I THINK THEY'LL TAKE HER INTO THE FOLD AND QUITE QUICKLY.

SHARED INTEREST.

>> Neisloss: RIGHT.

WE CAN'T LEAVE THE ISSUE OF THE "T" AND TRANSIT ON THE TABLE.

WHERE DO YOU THINK SHE WILL BE DIFFERENT?

FROM BAKER?

>> WELL, IT'S GOING TO DEPEND ON THE TEAM SHE PUTS IN PLACE TO ADMINISTER THE "T." LISTEN, SHE AND BAKER WOULD SAY THE SAME THINGS ON THE SURFACE.

IT'S THE PEOPLE YOU APPOINT.

IT'S THE PEOPLE YOU APPOINT, AND CAN SHE GET THE LEGISLATURE TO MAKE A BIGGER INVESTMENT IN THE "T," WHICH IS WHAT'S NEEDED?

BUT THE SHORT TERM WILL DEPEND ON WHO HER, YOU KNOW, MISTER OR MS "T" TURNS OUT TO BE.

>> Reporter: DO YOU THINK SHE'LL HAVE BETTER LUCK WITH THE LEGISLATURE WHEN IT COMES TO CONSISTENT FUNDING FOR THE "T"?

>> YEAH, IN THE SENSE THAT, LISTEN, EVERYBODY WANTS TO FIX THE "T." IT'S AN ALBATROSS.

BUT, YOU KNOW, IT ALWAYS MYSTIFIED ME A LITTLE BIT THAT CHARLIE BAKER, AS THE TECHNOCRAT GOVERNOR, NEVER PAID FOR THE "T--" ALL OF US AGREE THE "T" IS PRETTY ABYSMAL.

HE AGREED THE "T" IS PRETTY ABYSMAL, BUT HE NEVER PAID IN TERMS OF POPULAR SUPPORT.

I'LL BE INTERESTED TO SEE IF SHE DOESN'T SHOW IMMEDIATE RETURNS ON THE "T." DO HER NUMBERS START TO CHIP AWAY?

BECAUSE NOW MASSACHUSETTS EXPECTS, IF YOU HAVE AN ENTIRELY DEMOCRATIC LEADERSHIP TEAM AND THE STATE HOUSE AND STATE SENATE, THEN, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF NOVICES SAY IT SHOULD BE EASIER TO GET WORK DONE.

BUT I ACTUALLY THINK BAKER ENJOYED BEING THE FOIL OF THE LEGISLATURE AND THE LEGISLATURE ENJOYED IT BACK BECAUSE IT HAD SOMEONE TO BLAME WHEN THINGS DIDN'T GET DONE.

>> I'LL BE ABLE TO REPORT BACK ON THIS IN A COUPLE OF MONTHS.

I TAKE THE OWNER LINE.

>> Neisloss: WE ALMOST HAVE TO WRAP IT.

I HAVE TO ASK YOU ABOUT COVID.

SHE'S COMING IN JUST AS A COVID REYES IS CURRENTLY HAPPENING.

THAT COULD NOT ONLY KILL A HONEYMOON, BUT KILL A LOT OF PLANS.

ANY THOUGHTS?

>> COVID IS UNDER CONTROL IN THIS STATE.

THERE MAY BE A SPIKE IN, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE SHAKING THEIR HANDS, BUT IT'S UNDER CONTROL, YOU KNOW.

IT'S A PUBLIC HEALTH ISSUE.

I DON'T SEE ANY BIG CHALLENGE THERE, AS LONG AS SHE'S UP FRONT AND OUT FRONT ABOUT IT.

>> Neisloss: OKAY, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE.

ERIN O'BRIEN, PETER KADZIS, THANKS.

TAKE CARE.

NEXT UP, POPE EMERITUS BENEDICT XVI WAS LAID TO REST IN THE VATICAN TODAY AFTER HIS DEATH SATURDAY AT AGE 95.

HIS SUCCESSOR, POPE FRANCIS, PRESIDED OVER THE FUNERAL-- ONE OF VERY FEW TIMES IN HISTORY THAT ONE POPE HAS DONE SO FOR ANOTHER.

THAT'S BECAUSE, AFTER LEADING THE CATHOLIC CHURCH FOR EIGHT YEARS, BENEDICT RESIGNED IN 2013, THE FIRST POPE TO GIVE UP POWER IN SIX CENTURIES.

HIS DEATH CLOSES THE BOOK ON A COMPLICATED CHAPTER WITHIN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, AS BENEDICT'S TENURE WAS PUNCTUATED BY ACCUSATIONS THAT HE MISHANDLED ALLEGATIONS OF SEXUAL ABUSE BY MEMBERS OF THE CLERGY.

SO WHAT KIND OF LEGACY DOES THE LATE POPE LEAVE BEHIND?

AND WHAT'S NEXT FOR THE FUTURE OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH?

I'M JOINED BY THOMAS GROOME, A PROFESSOR OF THEOLOGY AND RELIGIOUS EDUCATION AT BOSTON COLLEGE, WHO IS ALSO THE AUTHOR OF "WHAT MAKES EDUCATION CATHOLIC: SPIRITUAL FOUNDATIONS"; AND MARGARET ROYLANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF VOICE OF THE FAITHFUL, A LAY CATHOLIC GROUP THAT SUPPORTS SURVIVORS OF CLERGY SEX ABUSE AND PROMOTES CHANGE WITHIN THE CHURCH.

THANK YOU BOTH FOR JOINING ME.

LET'S START, IS IF YOU WOULD, THOMAS, WITH THE FUNERAL ITSELF.

I THINK PEOPLE ARE FASCINATED BY THE TRADITION AND BY THE RITUAL AROUND A PAPAL FUNERAL.

CAN YOU EXPLAIN JUST VERY BASICALLY ONE OF THE DETAILS?

THE POPE IS BURIED IN THREE COFFINS.

THIS IS A COFFIN INSIDE A COFFINED IN A COFFIN.

IS THERE ANYTHING YOU CAN TELL US ABOUT WHY THAT IS OR THE MEANING OF WHY HE IS BURIED WITH CERTAIN ELEMENTS?

>> LIZ, YOU JUST TAUGHT ME SOMETHING.

I DIDN'T KNOW HE WAS BURIED IN THREE COFFINS.

>> Neisloss: OH, OKAY.

>> BUT HE CERTAINLY WILL HAVE ENOUGH COFFINS.

I SUPPOSE IT'S FOR SECURITY.

I THINK THIS EVENT CAPTURES THE IMAGINATION OF THE WORLD BECAUSE IT'S ALMOST 2,000 YEARS THAT THIS GOES BACK.

NOW, I DON'T THINK ST. PETER HAD THAT ELABORATE AN INAUGURATION.

BUT VERY SOON IN THE EARLY CENTURIES OF THE CHURCH, THE CHURCH BEGAN TO TAKE ON THESE POWERFUL TRAPPINGS.

AND IN SOME WAYS, IT WAS A REFLECTION OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE AND THE EMPEROR WAS AT THE TOP.

SO THE PAPACY, I SUPPOSE IT ENGAGES PEOPLE'S IMAGINATION.

THERE'S VERY LITTLE GOING ON IN OUR WORLD THAT GOES BACK A COUPLE OF THOUSANDS YEARS, OR THAT CAN BE TRACES-- 1,500 YEARS AT LEAST, SHALL WE SAY.

IN THAT SENSE IT'S FASCINATING.

THE THREE COFFINS ARE PROBABLY, AS I SAID, SECURITY BECAUSE THERE WAS PROBABLY AT TIMES IN THE HISTORY OF THE CHURCH WHEN PEOPLE WOULD COME AND TRY TO TAKE THE BODY AS RELICS OR SOMETHING AND KNOW-- I'M NOT SURE WHY THE THREE COFFINS.

I NEVER HEARD OF IT BEFORE.

>> Neisloss: OKAY, WELL WE CAN LEAVE IT-- >> HE'S CERTAINLY WELL BURY.

>> Neisloss: I WOULD THINK SO.

AND, THOMAS, WHAT DO YOU THINK THE LEGACY WILL BE OF POPE BEN DICTD FOR THE CHURCH?

>> YEAH, WELL, LIKE ALL OF US, LIZ, HE LEFT-- YOU KNOW, HE LEFT A MIXED LEGACY ARE, REALLY.

I MEAN, THERE ARE WAYS IN WHICH YOUR INTRODUCTION WAS MENTIONING THE SEX ABUSE SCANDAL, AND THERE ARE WAYS IN WHICH-- THERE ARE WAYS IN WHICH HE DID BETTER THAN POPE JOHN PAUL II DID.

ON THE OTHER HAND, THERE ARE WAYS HE DID NOT LIVE UP TO OUR EXPECTATIONS, EITHER.

BUT IT WAS A GROWING CONSCIOUSNESS FOR THE CHURCH THROUGHOUT ITS HISTORY, OR THROUGHOUT THAT TIME AND THAT ERA, THAT THIS WAS NOT JUST A SIN BUT A HORRIBLE CRIME AND DESTRUCTIVE TO CHILDREN, ET CETERA, OR VICTIMS OF WHATEVER AGE.

SO THE CHURCH WAS,ING SADLY, SLOW TO REALIZE AND RECOGNIZE THAT AND TO ACT ACCORDINGLY.

BUT HE DI THINK IN FAIRNESS TO HIM, HE DID TAKE AS A STEP BEYOND WHERE POPE JOHN PAUL II.

JOHN PAUL BASICALLY LEFT IT IN THE HANDS OF THE LOCAL BISHOPS.

NOW, THE LOCAL BISHOPS BASICALLY WERE NEGLIGENT.

VERY OFTEN THE PEOPLE ACCUSE OF THE CRIME WERE BUDDIES OF THE BISHOPS, THE PRIESTS IN THE SAME DIOCESE TOGETHER.

A LOT OF DIOCESES WERE DOING NOTHING ABOUT IT.

AND BENEDICT TOOK IT OUT OF THE HANDS OF LOCAL BFNS AND TOOK THE WHOLE THING TO THE VATICAN.

AND AFTER THAT,s THERE WERE A LOT MOVIE PRIESTS AND SUSPENDED AND EXPELLED, ET CETERA, ET CETERA.

IN A SENSE, HE WAS SOMEWHAT OF A CAT LIST.

>> Neisloss: LET'S BRING IN MARGARET ON THAT.

CERTAINLY, YOU HAVE A TAKE ON THIS.

HOW DO YOU VIEW HIS LEGACY FROM THE LENESSZ OF THE SEXUAL ABUSE?

>> WELL, AS EVERYBODY HAS SAID, TOM INCLUDED, HE WAS A COMPLEX MAN AND HE DID MANY THINGS WELL.

HIS-- HE WAS A THEOLOGIAN, AND A LOT OF HIS IDEAS INFORMED THE CONCEPTS OF VATICAN TWO.

SO HE ALWAYS SAW-- PEOPLE HAD ACCUSED HIM OF BEING-- HE WAS ALL ABOUT CONTINUITY.

BUT, NO, HE, AS WELL AS EVERY POPE SINCE JOHN XXIII, HAS RECOGNIZED THAT THERE NEEDED TO BE REFORM IN THE CHURCH.

BUT AS I-- AS I HAVE SAID BEFORE, HE WAS A REAL CREATURE OF THE CHURCH OF THE 20th CENTURY DISPLE AND-- >> AND HE HAD ALL THE BLIND SPOTS THAT GO WITH THAT, INCLUDING PROTECTING THE CHURCH AT ALL COSTS,s A REAL AVERSION TO TRANSPARENCY.

AND HE WAS-- I BELIEVE THAT HIS MAIN STRENGTH WAS THAT HE COULD SEE-- HE REALLY RECOGNIZED THE HARM AND THE TRAGEDY OF THE SEXUAL ABUSE CRISIS AND DID SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

HE WAS THE ONE THAT GOT RID OF MARCIO MARCELLE, AND A LOT OF THE OTHERS.

HE CLEANED UP A LOT OF THE MESS HE INHERITED FROM JOHN.

>> Neisloss: AND MARGARET YOU SEE TO SUGGEST THAT THE ABUSE, THE PROBLEM, THE SCALE OF IT, THAT THAT WAS THE CAUSE OF HIS RESIGNATION.

>> NO, NO.

I DON'T THINK THAT WAS-- I MEAN, CERTAINLY THAT WAS PART OF IT.

HE RESIGNED, I THINK, AS AN ACT OF REAL COURAGE BECAUSE HE LOOKED AT THE PROBLEMS AND SAID, "I CANNOT SOLVE THEM.

IT'S BEYOND ME.

IT'S A PROBLEM BIGGER THAN I AM.

THE.

AND SO HE HAD THE COURAGE TO RESIGN, AND ONCE HE WAS NO LONGER RESERVE OF ROME,s HE WAS NO LONGER THE POPE, AND HE-- TO A LARGE EXTENT, STEPPED BACK AND LET FRANCIS TRY TO CARRY ON WITH REFORM AND I BELIEVE THAT AS FAR AS ABUSE IS CONCERNED, I THINK FRANCIS HAS DONE MANY GOOD THINGS.

>> Neisloss: ON THE POINT RESIGNATION, THOUGH, THOMAS, DO YOU SEE THAT AS REALLY PART OF WHY HE STEPPED DOWN?"

>> I THINK SO.

I THINK I WOULD AGREE WITH MARGARET.

I THINK HE WAS TIRED, AND HE RECOGNIZED THAT HE DIDN'T HAVE THE ENERGY, THE COURAGE, WHATEVER IT WAS HE WAS LACKING.

HE WAS TIRED.

AND I THINK HE WAS VERY-- IT WAS IN SOME WAYS, IT WILL BE HIS GREAT LASTING LEGACY.

NOW, THAT'S NOT TO MINIMIZE ANY OF THE OTHER GOOD THINGS HE DID.

BUT 500 YEARS FROM NOW, WHEN THEY TALK ABOUT BENEDICT, THE ONE THING THEY'LL SAY ABOUT HIM IS THAT HE RESIGNED.

IN THE SENSE, HE HELPED TO DEMYSTIFY THE ROLE OF THE PAPACY.

LIKE CATHOLICS, WE THINK OF THE PAPACY,s OF THE POPE AS ALMOST A DIVINE BEING THAT ENTLOGICALLY IS DIFFERENT FROM THE REST OF US.

IN A SENSE, BENEDICT SIMPLY SAID NO.

IT'S A FUNCTION OF SERVICE.

IT'S A MINISTRY TO THE CHURCH AND A ROLE OF SERVICE.

AND HE WAS TIRED AND WEARY OF SERVING FOR EIGHT YEARS, SO HE HAPPILY RESIGNED.

AND I THINK HE REALLY DID RESIGN.

THERE'S A LOT OF FEAR AT THE TIME, WOULD HE REALLY?

WOULD WE END UP WITH TWO POPES IN CONFLICT?

BECAUSE HE WAS DISTINCTLY MORE RIGHT OF CENTER THAN POPE FRANCIS.

THERE WAS A LOT OF APPREHENSION WITH THE KIND OF MORE TRADITIONALIST CATHOLICS STILL HAVE A HERO IN BENEDICT, AND THE REFORMIST PEOPLE WOULD BE MORE ATTACHED TO POPE FRANCIS?

BUT THAT DID NOT TRANSPIRE.

REALLY IN FAIRNESS TO HIM HE KEPT QUIET, KEPT TO HIMSELF, SAID HIS PRAYERS AND GOT HIMSELF READY TO GO HOME TO GOD.

>> Neisloss: BUT WITH HIS PASSING, WE AGAIN SEEM TO BE HEARING A LOT OF TALK ABOUT HOW THE CHURCH IS AT A CROSSROADS, HOW BENEDICT WAS VERY MUCH AND IS SORT OF AN AVATAR FOR CONSERVATISM, AND FRANCIS INSTILLED WITH THE MORE PROGRESSIVE QUALITIES.

THOMAS, DO YOU THINK THESE DISTINCTIONS ARE VALID?

>> WELL, I THINK SOME OF THE DISTINCTIONS ARE VALID.

SOME OF THE THINGS-- SOME OF THE WAYS IN WHICH HE WAS A TRADITIONALIST DIDN'T BOTHER ME TOO MUCH.

THE FACT THAT HE ALLOWED SOME PEOPLE TO GO BACK TO CELEBRATING THE MASS IN LATIN, I THOUGHT THIS WAS A LITTLE BIT CRAZY, BUT A LOT OF PEOPLE SEEMED TO WANT IT-- A MINORITY OF PEOPLE.

I WASN'T TOO TROUBLED BY THAT AT ALL.

SOME OF MY FRIENDS WERE AND THOUGHT IT WAS AWSTLES HE DID THAT AND ET CETERA.

BUT I THOUGHT THAT WILL DIE OUT.

BUT SOME OF THE THINGS, THE TRADITIONAL POSITIONS HE TOOK THAT WERE DESTRUCTIVE.

TOWARD OUR GAY AND L.G.B.T.Q.

BROTHERS AND SISTERS HE WAS INCENTATIVE AND ALLOWED THE CHURCH TO USE LANGUAGE LIKE BEING INTRINSICALLY DISORDERED AND A GRAVE DEPRAVITY.

POPE FRANCIS WE GOT TO LISTEN TO AND LEARN FROM OUR L.G.B.T.Q.

BROTHERS AND SISTERS.

THE CHURCH IS IN A TRANSITION IN THIS REGARD.

AND IT HAS TO BE BECAUSE IN MANY WAYS, OUR POSITION ON THE WHOLE ISSUE OF SEXUAL ORIENTATION IS FALSE.

IT'S BASED ON FALSE SCIENCE, FALSE BIOLOGY,s FALSE SOCIOLOGY, FALSE PSYCHOLOGY.

SO WE'RE ALL LTO STAND BACK AND SAY JUST CONDEMNING GAY PEOPLE THAT WAY IS TOTALLY FALSE.

AND WE CAN'T DO THAT.

AND AS FRANCIS SAYS, WE HAVE TO LISTEN AND LEARN AND FACE INTO A NEW MOMENT.

BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THE CHURCH APPROVED OF SLAVERY FOR 1900 YEARS.

THE FACT THAT THEY HAVE OPPOSED L.G.B.T.Q.

PEOPLE AND GAY LIFESTYLE IS NOT SURPRISING.

BUT IT SHOULD NOT BE OUR FUTURE.

AND BENEDICT DID NOTHING TO MOVE US AHEAD.

IN FACT, HE REITERATED THE TRADITIONALIST POSITION.

>> Neisloss: SO, MARGARET, HOW DO YOU SEE THIS IDEA OF A CROSSROADS?

DO YOU SEE THE PASSING OF BENEDICT AS REMOVING SOME SORT OF BRAKE ON THOSE CRITICS OF POPE FRANCIS, THAT THE DIVISIONS WILL RISE?

>> WELL, I-- NO.

I DON'T THINK SO.

I THINK THAT POPE FRANCIS HAS A VIEW OF THE CHURCH THAT REALLY IS I THINK CHARACTERIZED BY THE CONCLUSION AT THIS POINT SO FAR OF THE SYNOD, WHICH IS BROADEN YOUR TENT.

LISTEN, AND I THINK THAT THE-- HE'S VERY MUCH MOVING FORWARD WITH A NEW PARADIGM OF THE CHURCH THAT INVOLVES MUTUAL DISCERNMENT, INCLUDING THE CLERGY AND THE PEOPLE OF GOD.

WELL, THEY INCLUDE-- THEY'RE INCLUDED IN THE PEOPLE OF GOD.

BUT I THINK THAT BENEDICT COULDN'T SEE THAT, WAS NOT COMFORTABLE WITH THAT, JUST-- AND A LOT OF THE-- HOW SHALL I SAY THIS?

THE.

PLUTOCRATS, THE RICH AMERICAN CATHOLICS THAT ARE FUNDING THE, THE BISHOPS THAT ARE OPPOSING FRANCIS HAVE BEEN, YOU KNOW, REFERRING TO BENEDICT IMPROPERLY TO SOME EXTENT.

AND I THINK THAT THEY'RE GOING TO LOSE SOME STEAM BECAUSE OF THIS.

>> Neisloss: OKAY, WELL, UNFORTUNATELY, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE.

THOMAS GROOME, MARGARET ROYLANCE, THANKS.

>> THANK YOU, LIZ.

>> A PLEASURE, THANK YOU.

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT, BUT COME BACK TOMORROW FOR "TALKING POLITICS."

FROM CHARLIE BAKER'S LONE WALK OUT OF THE STATE HOUSE, TO HEALEY'S HISTORIC INAUGURATION AND HER FIRST STEPS IN OFFICE, ADAM REILLY AND HIS PANEL WILL UNPACK THE EVENTFUL WEEK ON BEACON HILL.

PLUS, HEALEY'S PROMISE TO OPEN UP HER OFFICE TO PUBLIC RECORDS REQUESTS AND PUSH STATE LAWMAKERS AND THE COURTS TO DO THE SAME.

THAT AND MORE, TOMORROW AT 7:00.

THANKS FOR WATCHING.

GOOD NIGHT.