♪ (opening music) ♪ <Gavin Jackson> Welcome to This Week in South Carolina.

I'm Gavin Jackson.

This week we saw a failed insurrection take place in our nation's Capitol as members of Congress gathered to count and certify the Electoral College votes from the 2020 election.

It was deeply disturbing and a dark moment in our nation's history.

To make sense of all this, we speak with Congresswoman Nancy Mace and Scott Huffmon who is a Political Science Professor at Winthrop University but first a look at January 6th.

On Wednesday, the country witnessed an insurrection in real time as thousands of supporters of President Donald Trump stormed through barriers and illegally breached the United States Capitol as lawmakers and the Vice President were inside presiding over the counting and certification of Electoral College votes.

Before the Capitol was besieged by thugs, other office buildings evacuated due to bomb threats.

and two bombs were later found nearby on Capitol Hill.

Pence and other officials were ushered to safety, while insurrectionists, some armed, ransacked offices, defiled the U.S. Senate, armed guards barricaded the U.S. House as Congress men and women sheltered in place.

While unchecked chaos unfolded for several hour, resulting in four deaths and more than 50 arrests.

President-Elect Joe Biden, who will be sworn in on January 20th from the same spot where hundreds of insurrectionists were marauding for hours, addressed the nation.

<Joe Biden> What we're seeing are a small number of extremist dedicated to lawlessness.

This is not the dissent.

It's disorder.

It's chaos.

It borders on sedition.

And it must end now.

<Gavin> President Donald Trump who do not condemn the extremist attacks, taped a message from the Rose Garden, in which he continued to espouse false election claims, which fueled the siege.

<Trump> We have to have peace.

So, go home.

We love you.

You're very special.

You've seen what happens.

You see the way others are treated that are so bad and so evil.

I know how you feel.

<Gavin> Trump fueled the mob, hours before at a rally blocks away, even calling upon Vice President Mike Pence to shirk his constitutional duties, something the Vice President said he would not and did not do.

While debate got under way for the first Electoral objection over Arizona, Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell gave a dire warning.

<Mitch McConnell> ...this election were overturned by mere allegations from the losing side, our democracy would enter a death spiral.

<Gavin> >> Scores of law enforcement officers secured the Capitol complex after four hours of lawlessness allowing lawmakers to finish the certification while calls for the removal of Trump from office ramped up.

Long time ally of the president, Senator Lindsey Graham said count me out when it comes to overturning the election and spoke Thursday afternoon.

<Lindsey Graham> The president needs to understand that his actions were the problem, not the solution.

<Gavin> Despite the posturing and failed insurrection, the votes were certified.

Trump says he will transfer power peacefully as a weary nation watches.

Joining me now to discuss the chaos of the Capitol on January 6th is Congresswoman Nancy Mace the 1st Congressional District Representative from the Lowcountry.

Congresswoman, thank you for being with us this morning.

<Nancy Mace> Thank you for having me and for talking about this.

I've been on the job about a hundred hours and I'm operating on about two hours of sleep.

As a single working mom, my kids and my country are worth saving right now.

That's what this is about.

<Gavin> That's an incredible opening.

Two hours of sleep.

We appreciate you being with us.

It's been an extraordinary 24 hours, as you've recalled.

We saw an assault on the U.S. Capitol like we've never seen before in our country's history besides foreign adversaries.

We also saw the Electoral College get certified.

But first walk us through what you experienced on January 6th.

We know four people are dead, fourteen police officers were injured, two pipe bombs were found at the Capitol and around the Capitol.

Can you just tell us what you experienced that day?

<Mace> Yesterday, I attended the Joint Session as a freshman member of Congress I really felt like even with COVID-19, I wanted to be in the Chamber with the Vice President presiding over the Joint Session to certify the Electoral votes and the Electoral College in the election.

Right after that I was headed back to my office in the Cannon building and we were unable to get back to the office because we had been evacuated because of a threat.

And we didn't know what the threat was.

We found out later there were multiple pipe bombs, one of which was delivered to the Republican Headquarters.

And we were able to get back to our offices after that evacuation.

We were immediately put into lockdown.

At about the same time that happened that's when - I'm not calling them protesters or rioters that were protesting yesterday.

This is anarchy and at one point as I was trying to make my way back to my office, I was stuck in a tunnel with an underground tunnel with about a hundred other folks who had been put on hold during this process trying to get back to our offices and get to a safe place to lock ourselves in place, but we're on lockdown for several hours going into the evening yesterday.

And my primary concern is really making sure my staff was safe.

And at times were supposed to be to remain quiet because there are threats on multiple buildings, office buildings on Capitol Hill.

And every time that the phone wasn't ringing and there was silence in the office, all you hear were sirens going on throughout the Capitol And it's very scary that one of the four folks who passed away yesterday, the young woman that passed away in the Capitol, she died, literally at the entrance of the Chamber of the U.S. Capitol.

We go in and vote and when we were in to certify the results of the Electoral College last night I saw that shattered glass.

The shattered window where that transpired, where that happened.

I thanked our law enforcement, last night.

They are heroes.

And it was a very sad day for America and I'm grateful for the law enforcement who were here, who helped save lives.

As a Republican, we're supposed to be the party of law and order, the party of law enforcement, supporting our police.

It was distressing to see folks attacking those very same people that we are here to protect.

<Gavin> Congresswoman, you've been a supporter of President Trump's for a long time, going way back, but you do not support overturning of the Electoral College votes.

You didn't support objecting to it like some of your colleagues.

Specifically, even members of your delegation of the South Carolina Congressional Delegation, who did vote for Arizona and Pennsylvania to be objected to.

Tell us why you didn't do that and and obviously the results of this, of not going along with other Republicans.

<Mace> Right.

I was the only House Republican that certified the results of the Electoral College.

On Sunday, I swore an oath to the Constitution.

And I take that oath seriously.

And the focus of my state legislative record of the last three years, you'll see I'm a constitutional conservative.

You see that I take these positions and take these votes seriously.

I consistently do that.

And when you look at Article 2, Section 1 Clause 2 of the United States Constitution, it is abundantly clear what the role of Congress is in the vote on January 6th.

We have no power, no right, no authority to overturn the results of the Electoral College.

When a state that determines the Electoral College, Electoral votes, send us a slate of electors, our job is simply to count them.

That is what the Constitution says.

That's what Title 3 of the U. S. Code of Laws, which is the 1887 Electoral College provision codified into law.

The 12th amendment is clear.

It's black and white to me.

Sometimes a politically easiest thing to do is to go along so that you can get re-elected again.

I just refused to do that.

I want to be consistent about my position, because if the tables were turned I will be fighting tooth and nail against it.

And I voted to overturn the Electoral College yesterday in mass would allow and give Congress that kind of power to do it again in the future.

And make no mistake Nancy Pelosi would usurp the power of the Electoral College if given that kind of authority.

And that's just not - we have three branches of government.

The Congress is not the Executive branch, Congress is not the Judicial branch and we certainly aren't the Legislative, aren't the state legislature.

So, we have a very specific narrowly defined role.

And millions of people were lied to.

They truly believe that Congress could overturn and overthrow the election yesterday via the Electoral College.

Millions of people were lied to.

They were told that the Vice President single handedly overthrow, overturn and you start the outcome of the Electoral College.

Thank God for Vice President, Mike Pence who spoke out early yesterday and said that is just simply not true.

And retribution for that, the Vice President's Chief of Staff was blocked from the White House.

This is ridiculous.

Enough is enough and we've got to rebuild our nation and rebuild the Republican Party.

<Gavin> We have so much to talk about.

I'll go down that in a moment.

I'll talk about the hundred colleagues of yours that objected to those results.

Did they put party over country at this point after people just stormed the Capitol and came back and they still voted to object to this, followed what you call lies that were being espoused by the President himself about this saying that the Vice President could overturn this?

<Mace> I was really stunned yesterday, seeing the violence, the anarchy, the riots, the death that happened last night to come into that chamber and to continue that fight that you know was a futile effort.

They knew going into it, that they were not going to win that argument.

There was no time and place to talk about voter fraud.

I mean the reality is, even if we had the ability to change the Electoral College and outcome on the floor of the House, you cannot in a single hour, because Republicans had one hour, Democrats had one hour to give these speeches and debate.

You cannot tell me that you can adjudicate voter fraud in a state widespread voter fraud in an hour long debate where each member gets five minutes to meet their argument.

I mean and really no evidence was presented last night.

It was nothing knew that was said, but there's a time and place to adjudicate voter fraud.

I personally do believe there's voter fraud in every election.

I've seen it in my State House races.

There are machines that go down.

People aren't able to vote.

They get provisional ballots.

There are things that go on.

That has to be adjudicated in the state.

There's a time and a place for it and the grandstanding that happened leading up to this is why this violent outcome really transpired, because they misled the American people.

They lied to them.

It was dishonest and the worst part about it is being someone who had supported the president up until this juncture seeing the fleecing of hard working Americans that were lied to, that were misled, people's hearts and minds and their wallets were taking advantage of.

Half a million dollars was raised and what 10 million of it was used to fight voter fraud.

And we've got politicians who were using the Trump brand to build their own brand to run for president or run for higher office one day.

And it disgusts me.

<Gavin> Congresswoman, you just said Supporting the president up to this juncture.

Do you no longer support the president?

<Mace> Well, I emailed him yesterday.

I begged him to get off of Twitter and get on the television and bring peace to the American people and ask folks to peacefully leave the Capitol.

I disagree with his approach yesterday.

and I think that more could have been done sooner.

And if you look at some of the politicians last night, some have even condemned the violence.

And it's just wrong if we're going to rebuild our nation, we better start by rebuilding our party.

I'm going to work hard to be a part of the solution and not part of the problem.

And you're talking to someone who's got a very conservative record.

I'm consistently conservative.

But we've got to follow the Constitution.

We've got to save our Republic and we have to condemn the violence, the anarchy that transpired on Capitol Hill yesterday and last night.

It's just wrong.

My life has been threatened.

I was accosted on the street in DC on Tuesday night.

I didn't feel safe enough to go to my hotel last night.

So, I slept on the couch about five feet from here in my office because that's where I felt safe.

<Gavin> Remarkable words from a sitting congresswoman, not feeling safe enough to go to her hotel.

Had to stay in the congressional complex there.

Congresswoman we have about three minutes left I want to ask you about the future of our country.

We'll go back to the future of the party in a moment, do you feel he should be removed from office?

Do you feel he is a danger as he remains in office until he leaves, that he should be removed by either the 25th Amendment or impeachment?

<Mace> Well, the 25th Amendment to my understanding, I've been on the job for a hundred hours but it's really due to a mental health or illness type of issue.

I don't know that there is a remedy their constitutionally for anyone that would want to do that.

But from my perspective, I really want you to caution my colleagues that rhetoric has real consequences.

When I arrived this week, I as so proud to have Miles and Ellie with me, to be for this historic swearing in as the first Republican woman elected to Congress from South Carolina, but by the end of the weekend, I was so worried about the rhetoric I put my kids on the first flight home Monday.

I was worried about what the outcome might be seeing the rhetoric, seeing it on social media and inferring what may happen.

That a violent outcome was possible.

Yesterday my worst my worst thoughts and fears came true.

It's un-American and I don't condemn it and it needs to stop.

<Gavin> So, what do you think the next few days will look like with the President still in office?

Does that worry you?

Does that concern you?

<Mace> I am concerned The message that I want to hear from the Administration and from the President is one that is peaceful.

There's going to be a time and a place to investigate voter fraud.

We need to get to the bottom of it.

But after what happened and transpired yesterday and last night, today is not the day.

It is a solemn day.

It is a sad day.

My heart is broken for South Carolina, for the United States of America and I hope that we all pray for peace.

Take a deep breath.

Take a step back and just come together and find a solution.

We've got to save our nation.

We cannot continue to do this.

<Gavin> Congresswoman, we have a minute left I want to ask you about just what you're talking about.

We can't continue to do this.

A lot of people believe the election was rigged.

They believe that people were within their right to go and trash the Capitol's complex.

This insurrection as so many people have called it, a failed instruction.

What are your words to those people that still believe that this was fake who thought that the actions that were taken on Wednesday were justified?

<Mace> They need to allow the rule of law to be followed.

There are places like in Pennsylvania where they did not get released in state court but are seeking and filing relief in federal court.

The government is there are three branches and the judiciary is where that needs to be adjudicated.

You can't adjudicated voter fraud in an hour long debate on the floor of the U.S. House.

Let our government work.

Our founders were correct in having checks and balances on these kinds of issues.

And in order to save the future of our country to save our Republic to have those checks and balances, we have to allow the process to work itself out.

I will be part of the process of filing legislation and if investigations are open I'm going to support that.

We really want to get to the bottom of it truly, but everything that Republicans have worked for over the last four years was wiped out by the violence that transpired that was allowed to transpire.

It was encouraged and enabled to transpire yesterday.

I'm heartbroken over what happened.

<Gavin> And you believe that those were supporters of the President, that it's not Antifa, as some people are now starting to float at this point.

<Mace> I just - Show me the evidence that it was Antifa.

I've seen video.

I don't think you make that determination.

If you're need you can make that claim, you better back it up with evidence.

<Gavin> Great.

Congresswoman Nancy Mace And joining us now is Scott Huffmon.

He's a Professor of Political Science at Winthrop University.

Dr Huffmon welcome back during these these dark days we find ourselves in.

<Scott Huffmon> Thanks.

Glad to be here.

<Gavin> Scott, just tell me what did you see happen on January 6th at the US Capitol?

<Huffmon> A domestic terrorist attack quite literally if you look up the U.S. code.

and the definition of domestic terrorism, this was quite literally it.

I have to say, I was shocked and scared like everybody else.

I had always had the belief that you know it's the it's the U.S. Capitol.

It's the leaders of the free world are in there.

There's no way that it's going to be breached by a bunch of terrorists much less a bunch of "Y'all Qaeda" terrorists.

So, I was just absolutely shocked when they got in there and quite literally threatened the lives of my representatives and so you know just like everybody else I think I'm disgusted.

<Gavin> I have a feeling of 9/11 almost when you're watching this in real time and you feel helpless and it's just unfolding on our TV sets I mean just glued to it all day.

<Huffmon> Absolutely.

And its on 9/11.

My daughters were in half day preschool that day I remember literally yanking open the locked door at their preschool and throwing them in the car at two years old and taking them home.

And now, they're 21 years old.

At the same age as the kids I teach in college.

And now I have to find a way to explain this new terrorist attack to them.

The beauty of teaching college is I'll be able to put it in context, explain from an institutional standpoint and put it in historical perspective as well.

<Gavin> Scott, we'll get to that too, you're calling this a terrorist attack.

I wonder if this was a coup in the United States because we did leading up to these events, we saw the President on Saturday call the Georgia Republican Secretary of State asking to find 11,780 votes.

He goes on to have a rally.

He's asking the Vice President not to certify the Electoral College votes, which the Vice President did.

The President on Wednesday saying, you'll never take back our country with weakness.

He was talking to this crowd, this mob which within the hour marched and breached the Capitol security.

Is that a coup attempt?

Is it too hard to draw those lines?

What's going on there?

<Huffmon> Well, if you want to get down to strict definitions.

No, it wasn't a coup Because it wasn't state sponsored.

It was, however presidentially encouraged.

I think insurrection might be a better term than coup.

Of course, obviously domestic terrorism certainly Trump laid the tender for this fire.

He had called people to March on Washington on that day to hold rallies and you know and thirty thousand of them did.

And then on the day, he poured gasoline on the fire and as did Rudy Giuliani and all and you know a whole bunch of other people.

Rudy Giuliani called for a trial by combat, shortly before.

That's almost exactly what happened.

So, yeah.

it's rebellion.

Encouraging insurrection.

Yeah quite literally.

Scott when we're talking about you call "Y'all Qaeda", we're talking about a lot of different folks here that make up this contingent, this far right contingent that we've seen brewing for years now.

Again, just you know reinforced by the president's tweets, his actions and his rallies.

It's been planned online.

They saw this coming, apparently the police weren't as prepared as maybe some think they should have been, but this is also a culmination of years of delegitimizing institutions of our democracy, the press, the elect election process, the academia.

How do you see this going forward?

Have we reached a bottom at this point?

Are people still not going to believe this is really people saying this was Antifa when we saw clear actors of the right wing in the Capitol, in Nancy Pelosi's office sitting in the Senate chamber.

<Huffmon> Just well known Trump supporters very well known people in the Qanon movement, and the protest movement and so as you pointed out, people then turning around seeing these absolutely identified, right wing figures And then saying, it was you know Antifa.

No, we haven't reached bottom.

Every time we think we found one, we find a new Marianas trench of depravity and against our political institutions.

So, the I'm sorry, but the answer to that one is no.

There will always be a coterie of these folks that when our elected officials are delegitimizing our formal democratic institutions, then absolutely there's going to be a group that sees it as their Constitutional right.

Now, mind you, pretty much none of those people could actually pass a quiz on the Constitution in my Into American Government class but they interpret it as their Constitutional prerogative to tear down legitimate democratic institutions.

No we're not at the bottom.

<Gavin> But for maybe politicians, we have seen a shift now.

We've heard from supporters of the President, Senator Lindsey Graham saying enough is enough.

We've had a long ride.

We're changing here.

You've seen people move.

You still did see plenty of Republicans vote to object to Arizona and Pennsylvania results.

Obviously, the election was still certified What about the shift politically?

Are we seeing that change?

Will that make a difference?

Is it we're going to wait and see how this plays out?

<Huffmon> It'll make a difference to the moderate conservatives who were pro Trump and anti Biden.

They're going to be deeply disturbed by this.

But the people on the further right, know they're still people in Congress that rely on them for support.

We have seven members of the House of Representatives in South Carolina.

Six of them are Republican.

Five of those six signed on to challenge legitimate results.

Lindsey Graham has been after saying Trump was unfit for office, once Trump came in, the winds have changed.

He became his biggest supporter.

Now, that the winds have changed again and Lindsey Graham is safe for six years, Lindsey Graham has changed, whether it is deeply heartfelt or you know political expediency there's no way of knowing.

But the truth is a lot of these folks still rely on the kind of people who stormed the Capitol yesterday as their base around the country.

All you got to do is look at Senator Holly.

Look at several of the people who spoke yesterday, including members of the House of Representatives who spoke in challenge of the Electoral results and you'll see there are still people who absolutely assume that their district wants them to still be super Trumpers.

Will some people now sort of back away from the movement?

Absolutely, but the hard core and the folks who see those hardcore supporters as their core constituents, they're still going to essentially be the same.

<Gavin> So, a lot to process there too.

And again we still have to wonder what the future of the Republican Party is going to look at this point going forward.

It's split.

We always talk about that the autopsy from 2012.

And how the Republican Party tried to re align.

But now I'm wondering what does it look like going forward for them at this point.

<Huffmon> I go back to the 2010 and the Tea Party Movement as it rose up.

Mick Mulvaney, my former congressman ran against John Spratt saying he could no longer tolerate the increase of the debt and the deficit and his conscience got to him.

And then he went on to work for Trump pushing the biggest increase in the national debt in American history.

So, again political expedience can win out.

I think there will be a conservative movement within the Republican Party that pushes back.

There's been a lot about what's been happening under Trump it's just absolutely not not conservative at all.

Obviously, the increase in debt to the anti free trade measures.

So, I really think there will be a fight for the heart of the Republican Party.

There's no doubt about that.

But, it's just not clear who's going to win at this point, given that there are so many pro Trumpers and anti party leftovers still in powerful positions.

<Gavin> Scott, wrapping up here, looking at how things played out on Wednesday, looking how the President responded and in some cases did not even act.

Do you feel like the country is in danger for the next several days that he is still in power?

Do you think that the 25th Amendment should be invoked.

Do you think he should be maybe impeached by members of Congress?

Where we go from here the next several days?

Well, realistically, impeachment and the use of the 4th section of the 25th Amendment are possible but far-fetched.

Basically, you have to get a lot of people who are super Trump supporters in the Cabinet, who are acting members that basically he chose simply because of their loyalty to a majority of them rise up with the Vice President, send a letter to Congress stripping him of his power and then there's a process to follow then.

Given the fact that he encouraged this violence, and then didn't denounce the people who did it, finally just said go home but we love you and then when he admitted that he would no longer be in the White House after the 20th, he still didn't actually admit that he lost the election.

So, a lot of people are saying you know here's somebody who you know was not allowed to post on Twitter for 12 hours, but still has the nuclear codes.

So, a lot of folks are genuinely concerned.

We'll see how it plays out.

<Gavin> Incredibly disturbing recap from Dr. Scott Huffmon of Winthrop University.

Scott, thank you for helping us through these difficult, disturbing moments in our nation's history.

<Huffmon> My pleasure.

<Gavin> To keep you updated throughout the week, check out the South Carolina Lede.

It's a podcast that I host multiple times a week.

You can find it on any podcast app and South Carolina Public Radio.org.

for South Carolina ETV and For South Carolina ETV I'm Gavin Jackson Be well, South Carolina.