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Well, if you don't know what fair is, you can't make it.

>> Donny Brook is made possible by the support of the Betsy and Thomas Patterson Foundation and the members of NinePBS.

>> Thank you so much for joining us for the first edition of Donnybrook for 2026.

And this is the first show in our 40th year.

Can you believe it?

How about that?

Thanks for making it possible.

Let's meet the panelists and then discuss this week's topics.

Starting with the media veteran herself, Wendy Wiese, and one of our founders who was here on January 8th, 1987, Bill McClellan from the Post Dispatch.

She's Sarah Fenske, who was in kindergarten in 1987.

And currently, she's on the 314 podcast, and she's also the host of uh she's with St.

St.

Louis magazine, 314 podcast.

You got so many things going on.

Uh, what's what am I?

>> St.

Louis Public Radio.

>> St.

Louis Public Radio.

The queen of all media.

>> Mr.

Alvin Reid from the St.

Louis.

>> I was five when the show debuted.

Okay.

>> Nice try.

>> All right, Alvin, we're going to start with you.

Uh, you know, 10 years ago or so, we had two NFL teams in Missouri, and soon we'll have none.

The Chiefs have decided to move across the border from Missouri into Kansas where you went to college.

I know you have some allegiances.

I do >> as you've expressed them here on the program in the past.

>> Um the state of Kansas has promised to pay 60% of the new stadium complex.

The complex is going to be $4 billion.

So the citizens of can Kansas are going to fork over about $2.4 billion for what?

10 games a year.

Was it worth it?

And is it a big loss for Missouri?

>> It is a loss for Missouri because anything you lose of of stature, we should be trying to keep.

Um I'm not here to defend Kansas's deal, but I am here to say that the legislature, governor's office, major business leaders on that side of, you know, the Kansas City area said, "Let's do this.

Let's bring them to Kansas and reap the benefit of them coming over here."

Um we do county where the stadium is going to be.

Now, it's weird.

Overland Park is kind of like the state of Tennessee.

It's real long and it stretches over like two counties.

So, it will be in Overland Park, but it will be in Wandot County and that will bring jobs.

That will bring thousands of uh gallons of gas that will now be purchased.

It will help Yand County because it will be a hub of activity.

They're also um going to open like their training facility and also offices.

So, look, I applaud Kansas.

They got the job done because they wanted to get the job done.

And deal or not, Missouri can look at that and say like, you know what, we're too busy worried about stupid stuff in Missouri to make decisions like that.

Now, you may not agree with it, but gosh, the team is gone because the state legislature was moving too slow and Kho is worried about things like redistricting and where people go to the bathroom and all.

So, you know, it's a good thing that the Missouri that the Missouri taxpayers aren't building a new stadium for the Kansas City Chiefs.

It's, you know, the old thing sometimes the best deals you make are the ones you didn't make.

And I think that that we're here fine and if uh Wandot >> uh thrives, that'll be against what most economists say that they argue that stadiums don't really help areas that much.

Well, and the last time we had this kind of unity in uh in the region was when we brought the Rams uh here to St.

Louis, and we know how that worked out.

So, I would just tell the folks in Kansas not to get too comfortable because you never I mean, I know that everything's going to be fine, but they they quite literally gave the Chiefs everything.

Like, the Chiefs are getting I mean, the the just the television rights alone will make them even more gargantuanly rich than they already are.

And the can Kansas gets nothing from that.

I mean gets absolutely they are they are funding billionaires.

I didn't understand the pearl clutching.

I borrowed your phrase.

The pearl clutching on the part of so many Missouri lawmakers who are we're just so we're so sad because we've given the chiefs our our love and loyalty.

I think that that ship has sailed.

This this has nothing to do with loyalty or love.

the owners are getting paid.

>> Okay.

>> Okay.

My point is that that that argument is not the even what I'm about.

I'm about Kansas decided to do something and they did it.

>> But they did a dump and this is a terrible deal.

Like I don't see why we should respect them for like, oh, they pulled this off.

They pulled this off by giving away $2 billion.

I think if you got where the stadium's going to be is like where the racetrack is or where minor league baseball play there's open land.

It's got a place where it to be.

It's something where there was nothing and they decided, hey, whatever we get out of this ultimately, it's not just one of those like supply side economic things.

Nothing is there.

Something will now be there.

>> I don't know.

You know, Yankee Stadium's been in the Bronx forever and there's no development around Yankee Stadium.

Where do the Giants play?

You know better than I do.

>> They out in New Jersey.

But development bill because it's a swamp out there.

>> A pro a pro chemical swamp.

>> All stadiums are a bad bet, but the NFL is the worst bet because of how few home games we're talking about.

>> Final fours, there'll be a lot of the host a Super Bowl, at least one.

When you open a new stadium, you get a Super Bowl.

So, there will be five years.

It's going to be five years before they have the new stadium.

Right.

>> Right.

I think the Kansas Kansas cians won because if you live in Kansas City, Missouri, you still have an NFL team in your backyard unlike they want to be.

They wanted to be but they lost the the thing and this is always I found this interesting because you don't really cross a river or anything like that to get to like Kansas City, Kansas when you go that direction or to Johnson County, Kansas.

That mental game that we can't get over in Missouri, but it's way over there in Illinois.

People go back and forth all the time, so it ain't like that.

>> Okay.

Okay.

Alvin, thank you.

By the way, you're writing.

He writes the sports column for the St.

Louis American, as you know.

And by the way, uh, WY Price retired 45 years.

>> Hey, shout out to WY.

Amen.

I mean, right.

I mean, I just what a career and he just decided January 1, that was it.

And I think that's how that's how we should.

>> How many halls of fame?

>> At least at least four.

I know Press Association.

>> Way to go.

>> Okay.

Uh Sarah Fenske, I want to ask you about uh things that happened when we were uh on vacation the past two Thursdays.

One, on December 23rd, Judge Steve, I think it was the 23rd, he decided to uh say to Sheriff Alfred Montgomery, uh you're not going to serve anymore, but um Oh, no.

I wanted to go to you on uh Mark Thornhill.

>> No, we were going to talk.

>> Okay.

Okay.

Let's talk about that then.

Um, Sheriff Montgomery, among other things, decided that he would enforce the law rules that the St.

Louis Metropolitan Police Department usually took care of, like uh he uh went up to a deputy commissioner of the St.

Louis City Jail, handcuffed her, detained her.

He went to the Kaiser convenience store and he saw a former employee, Daryl Wilson, who was a lawfully licensed security guard.

Montgomery had him disarmed and arrested.

These are things that he couldn't do.

>> Yeah.

>> So, as a result, Steve Omar, the circuit judge who was in charge of this case, said, "Guess what?

You're out of here."

Uh, now the question is, who's going to replace the sheriff, who currently is sitting in jail, by the way, awaiting federal charges.

Who's going to replace him?

The mayor thinks she should.

The president board of alderman thinks that she should, and the attorney general thinks the governor should.

What do you think?

I think this is a terrible answer because my job is to be a journalist who covers the city of St.

Louis.

I don't even care.

This is like equivalent to some midlevel bureaucrat whose job is to get people like delivered from the jail to the court.

Yes, that is a good job.

We want a competent person doing it.

I'm glad Alfred Montgomery who way over exceeded what his powers were is out.

I think Omar made the right call.

But like, am I supposed to get all riled up about whether the mayor or the board of alderman or even the state gets to pick this?

Like, of course, I don't think the state should be meddling more than they do.

But the idea that the mayor and the board of aldermen are fighting about this, people are sending me seven page timelines trying to explain how they're right about this.

And again, I'm like, this should not even be an elected office.

This is not a job you have a philosophy for.

This is just something that someone should get done.

>> I I think it's I think it should be the mayor.

I I think she has the most at stake and I'm tired of the, you know, I'm tired of the inter interference on the part of the state and I certainly don't think Megan Green should do it.

So, >> well, I you know, well, first of all, I'm disappointed because I was going to apply to be the interim sheriff.

It seemed like you didn't need anything other than to fill out an application.

I'm, you know, I'm very disappointed that that thing is now on hold.

I will um I'll say this about the judge.

95% of that stuff and I don't know if we call it an indictment from the state or whatever.

There we go.

Okay.

Threw it out.

Said that was nonsense.

But the two things he said, listen, I'm taking you off your job for two specific things and that's it.

You're you're basically I'm firing you.

And I thought the judge handled that well.

Didn't go into a lot.

Just like, hey man, these two things right here for were enough that you shouldn't have the job.

The city in some fashion should appoint the new sheriff just because the city should be running their own business.

I can't rule out the board of alderman.

Um I don't know why there's this al I don't know why the board of alderman and the mayor can't get along on this and say like hey together we're going to appoint a sheriff.

Why we can't do that?

>> Well the new acting sheriff John Hayden the former police chief uh smart guy you know mathematics at Washington University.

I don't know why they just don't let him just continue.

>> That's what the mayor wants.

And part of what makes me so throwing my hands up about this is we are going to have an election to replace this guy.

It's a question of like is it four months or five months and so let's all hire lawyers and they can like you know face off.

>> I have no problem I have no problem with the governor doing it.

I mean the governors uh governors of this state have uh given us Gabe Gore the circuit attorney in the city and Melissa Price Smith the prosecuting attorney in the county.

I think they're both good calls better choices than what I think the voters sometimes >> but that's right.

and also the board of police commissioners.

But >> and so far homicides are down.

>> Well, that was going on for many years.

>> That's a national trend, Charlie, and has been for two years.

A record >> Yes.

decrease nationally last year.

>> But none, you are right.

And your native Chicago had the lowest homicide rate in 60 years last year.

So St.

Louis had 139 homicides, which is way down from 270 in 2020.

So that's good.

But hey, >> yeah, it's a national thing.

No one can really explain it.

But you know, we can give >> also come on take three months of of functioning.

I mean, we cannot credit this to the state.

>> All right.

Okay.

Perhaps you're making a good point.

I'll give you one.

I'll give you one >> as we move on to >> Wow.

So write this in your diary.

>> Matt Thornhill was a judge in the 11th circuit, the judicial circuit.

Wendy and he was an Elvis impersonator.

He dressed like Elvis.

He during the swearing in of witnesses, he would play Elvis music and ask them what kind.

When he walked out, he'd play Elvis music.

Around Halloween, he would dress like music like Elvis.

But that's not why he was thrown out by the Missouri Supreme Court.

Uh in in this guy's case, they said that basically he uh talked too much politics from the bench.

He was asking litigants um have you seen the Thornhill for judge signs?

Do you know that you live in Judge Thornhill country?

Is your union going to support me?

So, the Missouri Supreme Court unanimously threw him out.

Do you think there's something wrong with our region that we have so many clowns in positions of power?

>> You have been saying this for 35 years.

I mean, do you know that you have been saying this for 35 years?

And I understand there's a whole lot of proof, but no, no, it's not just this particular region.

There is a judge in Florida that brings her dog and makes blood donation part of the, you know, restitution situation.

There are judges all over the place doing very eccentric, strange things.

I think that we like to believe a lot of us who are not as knowledgeable perhaps as we should be from our civics courses in high school about about about you know the uh the legal profession but it's not an episode of law and order these things he's been on the radar for a very very long time and obviously they're going to follow the letter of the law I think that the disciplinary committees I think they have done their job he is no longer sitting on the bench >> oh but the disciplinary committee gave him the most unusual sentence.

This is the uh commission on like uh justice and correction or something.

And they said you'll be off the bench for 6 months, then you come back for 18 months, then you res well they were just trying to give him his pension, you know, lawyers helping lawyers.

That's right.

That is don't be shocked.

>> That was Judge Gary Gartner on that commission and a guy by the name of Eddie Justice who was a an insurance guy out of Popular Blog.

And and let's let's not forget that people elected.

>> Yeah, he was elected.

This is St.

Charles the entire and in 2006 he was a prosecutor in St.

Charles County and he offered a defendant some deal.

He said she he could get an autograph.

>> She was related to Terry Bradshaw.

So he said, "Can you get this signed by Terry Bradshaw >> because he's such a famous baseball player."

>> Yeah, I know.

>> But I mean, and then HE GETS ELECTED FOR 25 YEARS.

THAT'S UP TO THE PEOPLE.

THAT'S up to the people who elected him.

>> None of us have time to pay attention to who's on the judge ballot.

And that's why the Missouri plan is such a good thing in our bigger cities that we have like these August elders who figure this out for us.

St.

Charles County needs that.

They've grown big enough.

They should be added under it.

But it's never going to happen because you have people in both parties who want to keep this elected so they can control it.

The big the bigger thing, the reason that nobody took this guy down years ago when maybe they could have made a run at him.

I think what's going on nationally in the country right now, you see why we need an independent judiciary.

You can't just have uh the executive branch just going around removing people willy-nilly, no matter if people are clowns.

You just can't because somebody has to be able to be independent and not to worry that somebody like Donald Trump or Mike Kho or the Supreme Court is just going to bounce them if there's something that they don't >> Okay, but I will say kind of like the sheriff.

What the Supreme Court did was say like, you know, all this Elvis foolishness.

Yeah, you got to go.

Here's the specific reason why you're leaving.

But I'm kind of with Charlie.

I think something is in the water around here that we do have a little I think our percentage of just >> nuttiness is a little higher.

>> That's because we live here.

>> Okay.

I mean, other areas have their Florida man is famous.

It's up there.

We did lose Eric Brightton's, Steve Stinger, Kim Gardner, Lou Reed, and three other members of the board of alderman.

We're not batting that well lately.

>> Our our last 12 years have been rough.

I ain't going to lie to you.

Yeah.

>> Bill, what do you think about the new uh majority owner of Lee Enterprises?

His name is David Hoffman.

He's a billionaire who also owns Orber Weiss Dairy and apparently the Pittsburgh Penguins.

He lives in an $85 million home in Naples, Florida.

He's the guy who developed Wetka, Illinois and Beaver Creek, Colorado.

And he was trying to do that in Augusta.

That hasn't happened.

So now with $35 million, he's been able to buy a majority stake in Lee Enterprises and it's 71 newspapers, including the Post Dispatch.

>> Well, I admire this man immensely.

No, no, no.

I I mean, you know, I I I am rooting, of course, for the new owner to do great and bring the newspaper back and everything, but I worry this, you know, the Augusta plan.

I remember when he unveiled that and there was a 12hole golf course.

And I thought to myself, you don't do that.

I mean, it's either a nine-hole golf course or an 18hole golf course.

Now, you know, this could be, you know, the wisdom of he could be the man who thinks of things that never were and wonders why not.

And and I'm still, you know, the conventional thinker, but I wouldn't invest in a 12-hole golf course.

So, I I worry about Mr.

Hoffman and, you know, he he bought Ober Weiss Dairy and I think their eggnog is the best.

So, I you know I I'm I'm hoping for good things, but I'm still a skeptic.

>> I think you can't argue that the people at Lee Enterprises have been great stewards who have run this thing in a dynamic way and really moved this paper into the 21st century.

So, I think change could be really good here.

I am a little nervous because all the other papers that he owns are so much smaller than the Post Dispatch and so I don't think he has any idea what he's getting into.

If you listen to how he and his top media guy talk about the publications they own, these are not really innovative ideas or things the Post Dispatch is not already doing.

Like he loves payw walls.

He's looking to get rid of expensive headquarters.

Like these are not going to be game changers here.

Yeah.

Get rid of too many copy machines, you know.

And and I just trying to trying to watch the number of copy machines at a major daily newspaper is like, you know, bailing water out of the Titanic with a teaspoon.

I mean, that just doesn't make any sense at all.

He is clear.

It's It's got to be great and such fun to be a billionaire because these are clearly passion projects that he has.

He feels very strongly about it.

And I'm like, you this is the Post Dispatch is too important to, you know, to have anything awful happen to it.

So we are rooting for him.

>> Yeah, exactly.

And um Sarah, you know the gentleman's name.

I always forget it, but he has a >> T Gatis.

>> All right.

And he's a Ganette person trained in that way.

I think Guanette does well with papers.

They don't they don't get into losing money in Ganette >> and I think that will be they'll look at it and I think the Postpatch would have been better off if Gette bought it instead of Lee Enterprises.

So I give it hope there.

If Mr.

Hoffman called me tomorrow and said like Alvin, you can have an executive position with the Post Dispatch or the Pittsburgh Penguins.

I'd say Pittsburgh, huh?

>> What a lovely town.

>> So, I'm pulling for him, too.

I hope it works out.

I do.

>> The Post Gazette just went up.

They announced that they are closing.

So, maybe Mr.

Hoffman would like to add that to the family tree.

>> Oh, there I could work for the Penguins.

>> And the paper.

>> Yeah, >> I could cover the Penguins.

>> Well, and you have to do this guy, he has to be pretty smart, you know.

He started with nothing.

I mean, he was uh you know, his his dad was a milkman.

His mom was a waitress and he became a billionaire.

So, it's easy for us and me to sit here and make fun of his 12-hole golf course, but maybe he's smarter than we give him credit for.

>> Well, he's worth $1.7 billion and he's got 120 businesses and 22,000 employees.

>> And I'm imagining his own airplane.

So, yeah, he's doing better than we are.

>> Sarah, uh, speaking of employment, I want to ask about, uh, Chief Robert Tracy at St.

Louis Metropolitan Police Department.

We knew that his new contract allowed him to moonlight to uh work a second shift and he's going to work for UMSIL, the University of Missouri St.

Louis.

Uh and they have a criminology department.

The pair might make sense.

At the same time, I think it was uh Austin Hugal of the Post Dispatch who broke the story today that uh the St.

Louis Police Officers Union in some legislation that apparently nobody read last spring uh got lifetime medical benefits.

Yeah.

>> And the city's going to pay for it.

It was mandated by the state.

And so now if you're a St.

Louis police officer, guess what?

The you retire after 20 years and the city will pay your health insurance uh for the rest of your life.

>> Yeah.

This is going to be great for the taxpayers of the city of St.

Louis.

I mean, this is something that no other big city departments in Missouri at least or that Austin Hugo could find are doing.

I think this is a huge problem.

And when you talk about the bill that this was in that no one read, this was the hotly debated bill that removed local control of the St.

Louis Police Department and gave it to the state of Missouri.

This bill had all these things just tucked in here that were little gifts to the police department.

And I heard everybody say, "Oh, we just need some level-headed people to run the police department."

That's not what that bill was about.

That bill was about giving the police union everything it wanted and hosing the taxpayers and giving them no say in the fact they were being hosed.

>> I second that emotion and I would I was not I didn't I don't like it either.

Here this is the gift that will keep on giving now now for a lifetime.

>> Oh okay.

Now you everybody's always talking about we need more policemen and policemen need to be paid higher and so first going to Chief Tracy you know admittedly I liked it when it was a military thing.

the patrolman made this, the sergeants made this, the lieutenants made this.

The and the and the colonels, and then the chief, the idea that the chief has to be up here.

I I'm leerary about that.

But as far as giving people these health care premiums and you know then when they get on Medicare uh buying the supplement for them, you know, you're you're trying to retain cops and trying to get them to want to work in the city when they can make more money in a more pleasant, safer environment in the suburbs.

You you know, this is a way of giving them more money.

>> You So you have to you've got to be creative.

But I'm trying to figure out what is going on because leadership positions elected or otherwise.

It's almost now we've got a NASCAR situation.

Okay.

Uh Chief Tracy brought to you by the University of Missouri St.

Louis.

Sam Page, outgoing county executive brought to you by Western Anesthesiology and Associates.

What is happening?

It used to be you would have a a salary offered.

You you either accepted it or you rejected it.

you moved on or you stayed.

What in the world is happening?

>> Get that creative with salaries.

They should be able to get that creative with other parts of the government that are underwater.

>> I think the city's being too cheap with the police officers.

For example, the police chief for St.

Charles City makes more than the police chief of St.

Louis city.

And that's not good.

Uh they should they should up his salary because there are many uh employees in the school department who make more than his $183,000.

I think I think people would absolutely be willing to up his salary.

The problem is in classic St.

Louis fashion, it's so Byzantine that if you up his salary, you have to bring the fire chief's salary to the exact same level.

So suddenly you're talking about a bunch more money.

I love Chief Jenkerson.

He doesn't need an extra 100K.

That's why they brought in this nonprofit to do it.

The nonprofit apparently the union got to them, told them not to do it, had to find somebody else, pass it through them.

So it's you're right, it's it's it's crazy.

Well, a as for the police officers, they they aren't being paid enough.

They start at 57 definitely.

And in Arnold, you start at 7576.

Arnold, Missouri.

>> They have and and trying to retain officers is hard.

I mean, and people can move.

>> Well, we're we had 1300, we're down to 800, full force is 1,200.

>> And and besides when we when we had 1300, you know, they had this healthc care for life thing, too.

I mean, this isn't something that was new and dreamed up.

>> That's right.

>> Having said that, that is a ridiculous benefit.

Healthcare for life.

I mean, it's unheard of.

Again, we agree.

>> 44 year old guy comes back to play quarterback for the Colts.

And everybody was thinking like, you know, the best thing about that deal from Philip Rivers is he's got 10 kids, but he gets five additional years of healthcare.

So, even like the National Football League who y'all dogging out a second ago said like, "No, we ain't got no lifetime health care."

Now, let's be serious.

What did your late great father say?

Don't begrudge anybody's sal.

>> Yeah.

You know the the post dispatch employees at at one time they had lifetime healthcare.

>> Wow.

>> Well, apparently the CEO has it and >> other and a lot of other zeros.

>> Yeah.

A lot of other one year on the job he got $5.6 million left under, you know.

>> But you know what?

With what the police officers are asked to do, I have I have very little problem.

But but but Wendy, you got to draw a line someplace now.

I mean, you just can't.

The state's just going to give them any and everything they want, >> apparently.

Wait till the next legislative session, which started yesterday.

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