>> O'Connell: I'M SUE O'CONNELL.

TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON," SOME SAY THE TUMULTUOUS ELECTION FOR SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE WAS THE BEST REALITY SHOW ON TV.

BUT OTHERS ARE WARNING THE REPUBLICAN INFIGHTING IS HURTING MORE THAN JUST KEVIN McCARTHY'S REPUTATION.

THEN LATER, REAL REALITY TV AND THE VERY REAL LEGAL TROUBLES SOME OF OUR FAVORITE STARS ARE TANGLED UP IN.

TWO LAWYERS BEHIND THE PODCAST THE BRAVO DOCKET JOIN ME.

♪♪ >> O'Connell: IT'S HARD NOT TO LAUGH AT THE DYSFUNCTION THAT'S BEEN ON DISPLAY IN THE HOUSE FOR THE PAST SEVERAL DAYS.

THE LONG, DRAWN-OUT ELECTION FOR HOUSE SPEAKER WAS IN MANY WAYS ABSURD.

KEVIN McCARTHY LOST 14 VOTES BEFORE HE FINALLY WRANGLED ENOUGH OF HIS FELLOW REPUBLICANS TO VOTE HIS WAY, WITH THE SECOND-TO-LAST VOTE NEARLY ENDING IN A BRAWL ON THE HOUSE FLOOR AFTER AN APPARENT MATH ERROR LED McCARTHY AND HIS SUPPORTERS TO BELIEVE THEY HAD ENOUGH VOTES.

AS JON STEWART WROTE ON TWITTER: "THIS IS THE BEST SEASON OF CSPAN EVER."

BUT WHILE IT'S ENTERTAINING TO BE SURE, THE CHAOS NOT WITHOUT ITS CONSEQUENCES.

TO WIN OVER SEVERAL OF THE SO-CALLED "NEVER KEVINS," McCARTHY HAD TO MAKE SOME MAJOR CONCESSIONS, THAT WEAKEN HIS POWER AS SPEAKER, SOME OF WHICH HE AGREED TO INCLUDE IN THE RULES PACKAGE THE HOUSE IS PREPARING TO VOTE FOR, AT THE TIME OF THIS TAPING.

AMONG THEM?

ONE RULE THAT WOULD ALLOW JUST ONE MEMBER TO START THE PROCESS OF REMOVING HIM FROM THE SPEAKERSHIP, AND ANOTHER THAT WOULD FORCE LAWMAKERS TO MAKE SPENDING CUTS, IN ORDER TO RAISE THE DEBT CEILING.

AS POLITICAL HISTORIAN AND YALE PROFESSOR JOANNE FREEMAN WARNED IN THE "NEW YORK TIMES:" "THE HOUSE HAS ELECTED A SPEAKER, BUT THAT WON'T PUT AN END TO THE INTERNECINE REPUBLICAN BATTLES.

THEY WILL CONTINUE, ENTANGLING CONGRESS AND STYMIEING NATIONAL POLITICS IN THE PROCESS."

JOANNE IS ALSO THE AUTHOR OF "THE FIELD OF BLOOD: VIOLENCE IN CONGRESS AND THE ROAD TO CIVIL WAR" AND A CO-HOST OF THE POLITICS AND HISTORY PODCAST "NOW & THEN."

SHE JOINS ME NOW, AS DOES JESSE MERMELL, FOUNDER AND PRESIDENT OF DEWIT IMPACT GROUP.

WELCOME TO BOTH OF YOU.

JOANNE I WANT TO START WITH YOU, BECAUSE THAT FIGHT ON THE FLOOR, THAT NEAR-TIGHT ON THE FLOOR FRIDAY NIGHT OR SATURDAY MORNING I'M NOT SURE WHAT HAPPENED BETWEEN REPRESENTATIVE MIKE ROGERS AND REPRESENTATIVE RICH HUDSON.

ON THE SAME -- ON THE ANNIVERSARY, THE SECOND ANNIVERSARY OF THE SIEGE OF THE CAPITAL WAS BOTH ENTERTAINING AND HORRIFYING TO ME AT THE SAME TIME.

WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION?

>> WELL, THAT WAS CERTAINLY ONE OF MY REACTIONS WAS WAIT, IT'S JANUARY 6th.

AND SOME OF THE PEOPLE INVOLVED IN THIS MOMENT, IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER, MAY BE CONNECTED WITH WHAT HAPPENED.

SO, YOU KNOW, IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER, THERE HASN'T BEEN A LOT OF HIGH LEVEL ACCOUNTABILITY FOR THAT.

AND SO HERE WE HAVE THE EXACT ANNIVERSARY OF IT, AND THIS IS HAPPENING.

ON TOP OF THAT, AS A HIRCH WHO DEALS WITH BASICALLY MEMBERS OF CONGRESS BAICHG BADLY IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER, PARTICULARLY PHYSICAL VIOLENCE THAT IS NOT A THING I EXPECTED TO SEE.

AND I ALMOST JOKED ABOUT THAT OVER THE YEARS.

PEOPLE SAY WELL, I BET YOU'RE WAITING FOR THE VIOLENCE.

NO, NO, THERE WON'T BE THAT SORT OF THING.

THAT MOSTLY HAPPENED BEFORE THE CIVIL WAR.

>> O'Connell: AND JESSE YOU HAVE OF COURSE RUN FOR CONGRESS.

OUR C SPAN CAMERAS, USUALLY C SPAN HAS TO DO WHAT THE SPEAKER TELLS THEM TO DO.

THEY WERE ABLE TO ACTUALLY LOOK AT THE AUDIENCE, LOOK AT THE MENTIONMEMBERS OF CONGRESS.

WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION TO THIS WHOLE DEBACLE AND SUCCESS FOR McCARTHY FOR THE FIRST WEEK?

>> WELL FIRST OF ALL A TIP OF THE CAP FOR C SPAN THAT WENT ABOVE AND BEYOND TO GIVE ALL JOKES ASIDE A REALLY IMPORTANT TRANSPARENT VIEW AS TO WHAT WAS HAPPENING IF OUR OWN GOVERNMENT.

CASE TO BE MADE FOR WHY WE NEED TO SEE HOW THE SAUSAGE IS MADE, HOW UGLY AS IT CAN BE, HOW VIOLENT IT UNFORTUNATELY CAN BE.

WHILE THERE WAS UNQUESTIONABLY ENTERTAINING MOMENTS OVER THE COURSE OF THE DAYS, I FOUND IT TO BE INCREDIBLY SAD, THAT THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE IS ESSENTIALLY CROAMENTD AND HELD HOSTAGE BY SOME OF THE MOST EXTREME FAR RIGHT VOICES IN POLITICIAN TODAY.

AND AS YOU MENTIONED IN THE OPENING OF THE SEGMENT SUE, HAS MADE INCREDIBLY TROUBLING CONCESSIONS IN ORDER TO GAIN THAT FOUR HOWEVER LIMITED IT MAY BE IN HIS OWN ROLE.

TO SOME OF THE FOLKS WHO ARE THE MOST DANGEROUS PLAYERS IN D.C.

RIGHT NOW.

SO ALL JOKES ASIDE IT WAS VERY, VERY UP SETTING AS SOMEONE WHO CARES ABOUT THE FUTURE OF OUR DEMOCRACY.

>> O'Connell: JESSE I WANT TO DIG IN A LITTLE BIT, THERE ARE THINGS WE BELIEVE McCARTHY HAS CONCEDED TO, WE DON'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT, WE ARE REPORTING IN A VAGUE AREA.

BUT WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE McCARTHY ACCEDED TO?

>> THE FACT THAT ANY ONE MEMBER CAN CALL INTO QUESTION HIS ROL AS SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE.

WHICH MEANS JUST ONE RIGHT FAR RIGHT EXTREMIST INDIVIDUAL WHO IS UPSET OF ABOUT WHO KNOWS WHAT CAN THROW THE ENTIRE HOUSE AND THE PROGRESS OF THE BUSINESS OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE INTO DISARRAY.

OBVIOUSLY THERE NEEDS TO BE ACCOUNTABILITY FOR ANY SPEAKER.

BUT FOR ONE VOICE, TO BE ABLE TO HAVE THAT POWER, JUST SEEMS ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS TO ME.

AND GIVEN THE EXTREMIST VIEWS THAT WE SEE ADVANCING, UNFORTUNATELY, IN REPUBLICAN POLITICS TODAY, ADDITIONAL VOICES JOINING THIS NEW CONGRESS, I FEEL THAT, YOU KNOW, KEVIN MRC CARTHY HAS NOT JUST PUT HANDCUFFS ON HIMSELF, HE'S PUT HANDCUFFS ON CONGRESS'S ABILITY TO DO THE WORK OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

>> O'Connell: WE DON'T HAVE THE ABILITY TO LOOK BACK AS YOU WILL AS A HISTORIAN AND SAY THIS IS THE CONSEQUENCES OF THIS WEEK ARE.

BUT THE UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES OF WHAT McCAR THY McCARTHY DID, SOME OF THEM MAKE SENSE LIKE ALLOWING MORE TIME FOR ALL MEMBERS OF CONGRESS TO LOOK AT BILLS SO THEY CAN PARTICIPATE MORE IN WHETHER THE BILLS MOVE TOWARD OR WHAT SHOULD BE IN THE BILLS, NOT JUST A TOP-DOWN SPEAKER SAYS THIS IS HOW IT HAS TO BE SO THIS IS HOW IT'S GOING TO BE.

AND, YOU KNOW, ALSO JUST SOME OTHER LITTLE TINKERING TO THE RULES PART.

THIS COULD ACTUALLY SET UP FOR MODERATE REPUBLICANS, I'M USING THE TERM MODERATE COMPARED TO THE OTHER REPUBLICANS THAT ARE ON THE FLOOR.

MODERATE REPUBLICANS TO ALIGN WITH DEMOCRATS IN ORDER TO WORK TO GET THINGS PASSED NOT ONLY FOR THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, THAT BOTH PARTIES MAY AGREE ON BUT ALSO FOR THE REPUBLICANS, THE -- THE MODERATE REPUBLICANS TO CONSERVE THEIR SPOT.

IS THIS SOMETHING THAT COULD HAPPEN, COULD McCARTHY END UP GLETTING THIS AND COULD THE NO -- REGRETTING THIS AND THE NO KEVINS AND 20 OR SO THAT COULD OPPOSE McCARTHY AS SPEAKER END UP REGRETTING THIS?

>> IT IS POSSIBLE.

THERE ARE MANY THINGS THAT ARE POSSIBLE AND CERTAINLY THE SCENARIO YOU JUST SKETCHED OUT IS VERY POSSIBLE.

WE LIVE IN AN AGE WHERE POLITICS IS SO CONTINGENT AND THERE ARE SUCH A WIDE SPECTRUM OF THINGS THAT COULD HAPPEN, PRETTY REMARKABLE AND THIS IS ONE OF THE MOMENTS TO AN EXTREME.

I END UP THINKING ABOUT AND YOU JUST MENTIONED WE DON'T KNOW ABOUT THE RULES PACKAGE.

BUT LOOKING IN THE LONG VIEW AT THE HISTORY OF CONGRESS, THE ULTIMATE WAY IN WHICH YOU CAN TWIST CONGRESS AND GET IT TO DO THINGS IT'S NOT NECESSARILY INTENDED TO DO IS PLAYING WITH THE RULES.

AND THERE'S A REASON WHY IT'S SO IMPORTANT AT THE BEGINNING OF A SESSION TO DEAL WITH THOSE RULES.

BECAUSE THEY -- BASICALLY CONTROL HOW PEOPLE ENGAGE WITH EACH OTHER ON THE FROOR.

SO, YOU KNOW, WHEN I WAS LOOKING AT THIS LONG HISTORY OF VIOLENCE IN CONGRESS, VERY OFTEN IT'S THE RULES THAT PEOPLE ARE DEPLOYING OR TWISTING, OR VIOLATING AND THEN KIND OF DARING PEOPLE TO SAY SOMETHING ABOUT RULES VIOLATED.

SO I'M VERY MUCH WAITING, I SUPPOSE I'M GOING TO BE THINKING STEP BY STEP ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING HERE BUT THAT'S THE NEXT THING I'M INTERESTED IN.

AND, YOU KNOW, JOHN.

THE LAST THING I READ IS SOME OF IT IS OPEN AND SOME OF IT IS NOT.

THAT THERE ARE SOME THINGS AWE DON'T KNOW.

THOSE ARE FEDERATE IMPORTANT THINGS.

IT WOULD BE HARD TO EXAGGERATE THE DEGREE TO WHICH RULES CAN BE WEAPONS IN CONGRESS IF THEY ARE DEPLOYED THE RIGHT WAY.

>> O'Connell: YOU KNOW JESSE IT'S SHOCKING FROM A POLITICAL STANDPOINT, YOU HAD THE REPUBLICAN PARTY THAT HAD THIS MAJOR VICITY WFT REVERSAL OF ROE V. WADE, THEY HAVE A SUPREME COURT THAT IS SEATED WITH PEOPLE THAT THEY WOULD WANT, THAT THEY HOME ARE GOING TO RULE IN THE FAVOR OF VALUES AND MORALS AND AGENDA ITEMS AND THEN THEY WIN IN CORNG EVEN BY A SLIM MARGIN BUT EVEN IN A YEAR WHERE PEOPLE THOUGHT AT LEAST I THOUGHT IT COULD BE WORSE FOR THEM SO THEY WIN.

THE FIRST THING THEY DO IS GO IN AND HAVE A VERY PUBLIC FIGHT ABOUT HAVING A SPEAKER WHO WHO'S GOING TO SET THEIR AGENDA FOR THE NEXT TWO YEARS.

WHAT ARE YOU HEARING FROM PEOPLE YOU KNOW THEY REPUBLICAN PARTY ABOUT WHAT THIS MEANS FOR THEM, AS WE ARE IN THIS PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN SEASON NOW?

>> WELL, SUE YOU'LL BE SHOCKED TO HEAR MY LIST OF REPUBLICAN SOURCES IS NOT THE SIZE OF AN OLD PHONE BOOK.

NOT NECESSARILY MY WORLD.

BUT AS I TALKED TO FRIENDS WHO ARE, YOU KNOW, SORT OF THE WHAT WE THINK OF AS THE NEW ENGLAND REPUBLICANS OF YORE, RIGHT, TOOU AND FAR BETWEEN THESE DAYS, THEY ARE, AS THEY HAVE BEEN FOR YEARS, SINCE DONALD TRUMP CAME DOWN THAT ESCALATOR, THEY ARE HORRIFIED.

THEY ARE HORRIFIED TO SIGH A PARTY THAT WHILE I VEHEMENTLY DISAGREE WITH SO MANY IF NOT ALL OF THEIR PRINCIPLES DID PLAY A ROLE IN AMERICAN POLITICS, IN SOME CASES A VALUABLE ROLE THAT THEY ARE LITERALLY FIGHTING.

I WAS GOING TO SAY INFIGHTING BUT THEY ARE LITERALLY FIGHTING ON THE FLOOR OF THE HOUSE.

AND, YOU KNOW, YOU POINTED OUT ALL OF THE THINGS THAT SEEMINGLY HAVE GONE IN REPUBLICANS FAVOR OVER THE PAST FEW YEARS AND THE FACT THAT THEY'RE STILL FIGHTING.

FROM MY PERSPECTIVE THAT MEANS THEY ARE NOT DRIVEN BY ISSUES.

THEY ARE NOT DRIVEN BY VALUES.

THEY ARE DRIVEN BY THE PURE AND SIMPLE SEEKING OF POWER.

RIGHT?

KEVIN McCARTHY WAS WILLING TO CAVE ON SO MANY VITAL THINGS JUST TO HAVE HIS NAME ON THAT PLAQUE ABOVE THE SPEAKER'S OFFICE, JUST TO HOLD THAT GAVEL IN HIS HAND.

THEY ARE NOT DRIVEN BY ANY CORE SET OF GOALS BY THE FUTURE OF THIS COUNTRY OR THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

THEY ARE WILLING TO MAKE THEIR FRIENDS IN POWER MORE RICH AND POWERFUL AND I HOPE AMERICAN VOTERS ARE SEEING THIS FOR WHAT IT IS AS THEY LAY IT BARE LITERALLY ON THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

IF.

>> O'Connell: I WANT TO TAKE YOUR TEMPERATURE HISTORICALLY AND AROUND THE WORLD.

TRYING TO REJECT THESE 20, MOST OF WHOM WERE ELECTION DENIERS, YOU KNOW WE CAN JUST GO DOWN THE LIST, AND THOSE REPUBLICANS ON THE FLOOR TRYING TO TAKE A STEP AWAY FROM THEM WHILE WE'RE WATCHING ACCREDITATION THE WORLD -- ACROSS THE WORLD THE SAME ARCHITECTS OF THE JANUARY 6th INSURRECTION, PLANTING THE SEEDS IN OTHER PARTS.

HOW WORRIED ARE YOU THAT WE ARE NOW IN A NEW ERA WHERE PEOPLE WILL BE EASILY SWAYED BY THIS MISS, AND DISINFORMATION FROM THIS PLAY BOOK, THIS JANUARY 6th ELECTION DENIER PLAY BOOK?

>> OH I'M VERY WORRIED.

I MEAN, IN PART I SUPPOSE, BECAUSE THERE IS A LONG HISTORY OF PEOPLE LOOKING TO THE UNITED STATES FOR CERTAINLY POLITICAL GUIDANCE IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER, AND THIS IS NOT THE PARTICULAR GUIDANCE WE WANT TO SEND.

BUT I THINK MORE THAN THAT.

PARTICULARLY IN A LARGE AND INFLUENTIAL NATION LIKE THE UNITED STATES, WHAT HAPPENS HERE IN A SENSE NORMALIZES WHAT'S GOING ON.

AND PARTICULARLY GIVEN THE LACK OF ACCOUNTABILITY IN SO MANY WAYS, FOR WHAT'S HAPPENED IN, YOU KNOW, THE -- WHAT JANUARY 6th REPRESENTS STILL, IT BASTLES ME AS A -- BASTLES ME BAFFLES ME AS A HISTORIAN, THAT WAS AN ATTACK TO OVERTURN OUR GOVERNMENT, IT IS AN ATTEMPTED COUP.

THAT IS PRETTY MAJOR.

THE FACT THAT THERE IS NOT ACCOUNTABILITY NOT ONLY NOIRLTZS THAT KIND OF BEHAVIOR WITHOUT DRAWING A LINE AND SAYING -- NORMALIZES, THAT CERTAINLY SUGGESTS TO THE UNITED STATES AND THE WORLD AT LARGE THAT KIND OF BEHAVIOR NOW IS WITHIN THE REALM OF THE ACCEPTABLE IN POLITICS.

IT IS REALLY STRIKING TO LOOK AT WHAT'S HAPPENING IN BRAZIL RIGHT- NOW AND COMPARING IT WITH WHAT WENT ON ON JANUARY 6th, AND I FIND MYSELF THINKING, HOW ARE THEY GOING TO ADDRESS THIS?

WILL THEY HOLD ANYONE ACCOUNTABLE?

THE FACT THAT I'M COMPARING SORT OF JANUARY 6th-ESQUE INSURRECTIONS IS ALARMING, BEYOND STRIKING.

ALARMING.

>> O'Connell: JESSE AS WE FINISH UP HERE I HEARD A NUMBER OF REPUBLICANS LAST WEEK ON TELEVISION SINGING NANCY PELOSI'S PRAISES AND HOW SHE WAS ABILITY TO CORRAL AND MANAGE HER HERD, IF YOU WILL WHEN SHE WAS SPEAKER.

IS THIS BURNISHING NANCY PELOSI'S IMAGE?

>> I THINK IT ABSOLUTELY IS.

I HAVEN'T ALWAYS DISAGREED WITH HER, I WISHED SHE HAD PUSHED THROUGH SOME MORE PROGRESSIVE POLICIES I THINK SHE LEFT ON THE TABLE.

BUT THERE IS NO DOUBT ABOUT HER STRENGTH IN BEING ABLE TO STAND UP AND DRAW A LINE IN THE SAND WHEN NECESSARY, A STRENGTH THAT KEVIN McCARTHY APPEARS TO NOT HAVE IN SPADES, LACK IN SPADES.

AND HE'S PROVEN HIMSELF AT THE FIRST MOMENT OF BEING SPEAKER WILLING TO CAVE.

AND NANCY PELOSI, I DON'T THINK, LIKE HER OR HATE HER I DON'T THINK ANYONE CONSIDERS HER A WOMAN WHO WAS WILLING TO CAVE.

>> O'Connell: I HAVE TO SAY I'M ALSO STRUCK BY EVERYONE CALLS HIM KEVIN.

THAT'S ALSO STRIKING ME.

I'VE NEVER EVER HEARD AN ELECTED OFFICIAL RUNNING FOR A CHOSEN PROFESSION REFERRED TO AS THAT.

WE'LL SEE.

>> HILLARY.

>> RIGHT, BUT -- WE'LL SEE, WE'LL CONTINUE THIS.

ALL RIGHT, JOANNE FREEMAN AND JESSE MERMELL, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US, WE APPRECIATE YOUR TIME.

NEXT UP, TO THE MORE TRADITIONAL KIND OF REALITY TV.

IF YOU'RE ANYTHING LIKE ME, YOU KNOW TUNING IN TO OTHER PEOPLE'S DRAMA CAN HELP TUNE OUT THE STRESSES IN OUR OWN LIVES.

BUT LATELY WE'VE BEEN SEEING LESS OF THE STANDARD FAMILY HIJINX, PETTY FIGHTS AND RELATIONSHIP TROUBLE, AND MORE OF OUR FAVORITE REALITY STARS RUNNING INTO LEGAL TROUBLE, INSTEAD.

IN NOVEMBER, WE SAW "CHRISLEY KNOWS BEST" STARS TODD AND JULIE CRISLEY SENTENCED TO A COMBINED PRISON TERM OF 19 YEARS AFTER BEING CONVICTED OF BANK FRAUD AND TAX EVASION, AND JUST THIS FRIDAY REAL HOUSEWIVES OF SALT LAKE STAR JEN SHAH WAS SENTENCED TO SIX AND A HALF YEARS IN PRISON FOR WIRE FRAUD.

TO DISCUSS, I AM JOINED BY ATTORNEYS CESIE ALVAREZ AND ANGELA ANGOTTI.

THEY ARE THE CO-HOSTS OF "THE BRAVO DOCKET," A BI-WEEKLY PODCAST EXAMINING THE LEGAL WOES OF OUR FAVORITE REALITY TV PERSONALITIES.

ANGELA AND CESIE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING ME.

LOOK, I KNOW SOME PEOPLE MIGHT THINK THIS IS FRIFERLZ, FRIVOLOUS, BUT, CESIE, TALK TO ME A LITTLE BIT, SOME OF OUR AUDIENCE MAY THOUGHT BE AS FAMILIAR WITH THE SALT LAKE HOUSEWIVES FRANCHISE.

WHO IS IN IT WHO ARE THE PLAYERS AND WHY IS IT SO POPULAR?

>> SUR THINK.

SO REAL HOUSEWIVES OF SALT LAKE CITY, PREMIERED I BELIEVE IN 2020, AND IT WAS THE FIRST SEARS IN SALT LAKE.

THEY HADN'T HAD A NEW CITY FOR A WHILE.

THE PLAYERS ARE THOSE LIVING IN SALT LAKE AND IT IS WEALTHY INDIVIDUALS THERE A VARIETY OF RELIGIOUSRELIGIONS.

MOST PEOPLE THOUGHT THEY WERE PRIMARILY MORMON.

BUT, JEN SHAH WAS DIFFERENT RELIGION.

I DIDN'T THINK ANYONE WOULD HAVE PREDICTED THAT GENERAL SHAH WAS RUNNING A TELEMARKETING SCHEME BEHIND THE SCENES THAT WAS NOT SHOWN ON THE SHOW.

>> O'Connell: ANGELA, BREAK DOWN WHAT THESE CHARGES WERE.

AND, YOU KNOW, I THINK WE WERE ALL BETTING AROUND MY OFFICE THAT I THINK SHE COULD ABOUT HAVE GOTTEN, JEN OHAVE GOTTEN TEN YEARS.

THERE WERE VICTIMS TO THIS CRIME NOT THAT THE OTHER CRIMES WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT DIDN'T HAVE VICTIMS.

BUT THERE WERE ELDERLY PEOPLE, THERE WERE PEOPLE WHO WERE VULNERABLE WHO WERE VICTIMS TO HER TELEMARKETING SCHEME.

CAN YOU BREAK DOWN WHAT THE CHARGES WERE AND WHAT SHE WAS ACCUSED AND CONVICTED OF?

>> YES.

SO SHE WAS CHARGED WITH CONSPIRACY TO COMMIT WIRE FRAUD VIA TELEMARKETING AND CONSPIRACY TO COMMIT MONEY LAUNDERING.

SHE PLED GUILTY TO THE MOISTEN LAUNDERING CHARGE AND OFTEN HER PLEA AGREEMENT THE JUDGE DISMISSED THE MONEY LAUNDERING CHARGE.

HOWEVER THERE WAS PRETTY CLEAR THERE WAS MONEY LAUNDERING AS WELL AND HER CO-CONSPIRATORS PLED GUILTY TO THAT AS WELL.

IT WAS A WIDE RANGING TELEMARKETING SCHEME THAT COVERED THE ENTIRE COUNTRY THAT HAD MILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN PROCEEDS, THAT REALLY TARGET ID ELDERLY AND VULNERABLE PEOPLE.

>> O'Connell: SO WE'RE GOING TO TAKE A LITTLE FLAVOR A LITTLE LOOK AT THE REAL HOUSEWIVES OF SALT LAKE CITY.

HERE WAS THE TRAILER FOR THE SEASON THAT JUST COMPLETED.

LET'S TAKE A LOOK.

>> I GOT PLAYED BY STEWART SMITH.

I WOULD NOT BE IN THIS THING AT ALL IF IT WASN'T FOR STEWART.

>> SOME IT I KNOW WAS WORKING FOR JEN NOW HE'S AN INFORMANT.

♪ ♪ >> ARE YOU GOING TO GO TO JAIL FOR 11 YEARS?

>> O'Connell: SO CESIE, ACKNOWLEDGING SOME OF THE THINGS ON REALITY TV ARE SCRIPTED, SOME ARE THE STORY ARKANSAS ARE SCRIPTED, SOME THOUGHT IT MIGHT BE SCRIPTED, THIS IS REALLY A MAJOR DPAWR FOR REALITY PROGRAMS TO -- DEPARTURE TO WATCH HER GET ARRESTED AND THE ENTIRE SEASON SAY SHE WAS INNOCENT AND THEN WE FIND OUT LAST FRIDAY SHE HAD PLED GUILTY.

WHAT WAS THAT LIKE FOR PEOPLE WATCHING AND FANS OF REALITY TELEVISION?

>> WELL SPEAKING AS A FAN I THINK IT IS THE FIRST TIME WE HAVE SEEN SOMEONE BE ARRESTED ON THE REAL HOUSEWIVES AND BE ABLE TO SEE THE OFFICERS COMING TO ARREST HER.

I THINK, AS PEOPLE WHO COVER THE LEGAL ISSUES, IT WAS A UNIQUE POSITION BECAUSE PEOPLE COULD TUNE IN TO OUR PODCAST AND SEE WHAT WAS ACTUALLY HAPPENING IN THE PLEADINGS.

AND KNOW THAT WHILE SHE WAS CLAIMING HER INNOCENCE ON OUR TELEVISION SHE HAD PLED GUILTY TO THE CHARNLS.

SO IT WAS REALLY A UNIQUE EXPERIENCE.

I THINK AS A VIEWER IT WAS ENGAGING TELEVISION.

I THINK WE'RE STILL ENGAGED.

RIGHT NOW SHE HASN'T PLED GUILTY YET ON THE SHOW SO WE'RE ALL JUST WAITING FOR THAT TO HAPPEN.

VERY UNIQUE EXPERIENCE.

VERY ENTERTAINING BUT OF COURSE IT'S AT THE DETRIMENT OF VICTIMS WHO WERE ACTUALLY HARMED.

>> O'Connell: AND ANGELA THERE'S SOME LEGAL PERIL HERE.

WE CERTAINTY THOSE OF US I INCLUDED WHO WATCH THE REAL HOUSEWIVES OF BEVERLY HILLS, ERICA JANE'S TROUBLES, ASSOCIATED WITH HER HUSBAND'S TROUBLES, LAW FIRM APPROPRIATED FUNDS FROM A SETTLEMENT AMONG A MOUNTAIN OF OTHER CHARGES AGAINST HIM, TO ACTUALLY BE LIVING A LAVISH LIFESTYLE ON TELEVISION, WHEN YOU'RE BEING ACCUSED OF STEALING FOR THE MOST PART MONEY FROM OTHER PEOPLE, THE LEGAL JEOPARDY THAT IT MUST PUT THESE PEOPLE IN, I MEAN THEY'RE ALREADY IN LEGAL JEOPARDY BUT COMPOUNDING IT, I IMAGINE AS A LAWYER YOU WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN RECOMMENDING THAT THEY CONTINUE THEIR DAY JOB ON ANY REALITY TELEVISION SHOW.

>> NO.

I MEAN, I THINK IT WAS PROBABLY SECHES AND I TALKED ABOUT -- CESIE AND I TALKED ABOUT THIS, MAYBE A LAWYER'S REAL NIGHTMARE.

SO MANY INSTANCES OF THAT OCCURRING AND THEM MAKING THEIR LIVERS WORST FOR THEMSELVES IN THE COURTS.

THE NEW JERSEY, ABBIE LEES FROM DANCE MOMS, CRISLEYS, THEY HAD ONGOING LEGAL PROCEEDINGS AS THEIR SHOWS WERE AIRING AND SOMETIMES FOR EXAMPLE IN DANCE MOMS, ABBY LEE MILLER, THE IF I RECALL JUDGE ACTUALLY WATCHED THE SHOW AND DISCOVERED THAT THERE WAS MORE INCOME THAT SHE HADN'T REPORTED.

SO YEAH, LAWYER'S WORST NIGHTMARE PROBABLY.

>> O'Connell: I KNOW YOU TALK ABOUT THE CRISLEYS A LITTLE BIT WHICH I WANT TO TALK ABOUT AS WELL.

ONE OF THE CHALLENGES IS THAT THEY MIGHT WANT TO MAKE THE DEFENSE THAT THIS IS THOUGHT REAL LIFE, THIS IS REALITY TV, I'M PRETENDING I HAVE ALL THIS MONEY.

I REALLY DON'T HAVE ALL THIS MONEY.

I'M NOT LIVING THE LIFE SOMETIME THAT IT SEEMS.

BUT IN THE CRISLEYS CASE THE AMAZING PART OF THE FRAUD THAT THEY COMMITTED AGAINST THE BANK INCLUDING USING SORT OF DO IT YOURSELF BANK STATEMENTS THAT THEY CUT AND PASTED WITH REAL PAPER, A REAL PAPER CUTTER AND REAL GLUE AND PROBABLY WHEEL WHITE-OUT WHICH THEY USED TO SUBMIT AS DOCUMENTS TO GET THIS -- THESE MULTIPLE MILLION DOLLAR LOANS FROM BANKS.

I MEAN CESIE, THIS IS IN SOME WAYS NOT THE SAME KIND OF CRIME AGAINST REAL PEOPLE WHO ARE VULNERABLE AND ELDERLY.

BUT WHAT DO YOU THINK IS GOING THROUGH THEIR MEDS, WHEN -- HEADS WHEN THEY'RE ON TELEVISION DOING THESE CRIMES DO THEY REALLY THINK THEY'RE NOT GOING TO GET CAUGHT?

>> WELL, I THINK -- WELL I DON'T THINK THEY THINK THEY'RE GOING TO GET CAUGHT AND THAT'S THE PROBLEM.

THERE IS A LEVEL OF NARCISSISM THAT GOES INTO BOTH COMMITTING WHITE SIMILAR CRIMES AND GOING ON TELEVISION WHEN YOU KNOW YOU COMMITTED THESE CRIMES.

AND TO SAY THAT THE CRISLEYS CRIMES WERE VICTIMLESS I DON'T THINK IS FAIR BE DEFRAUD SMALLER BANKS AND THEY DEFRAUDED THE GOVERNMENT.

THAT CAN GO ON TO US, AS FEDERAL TAXPAYERS.

SO TO SAY THAT IT'S COMPLETELY VICTIMLESS I DON'T THINK IS FAIR.

BUT TO THEM THEY'RE JUST SEEING NUMBERS OF AND THEY'RE NOT SEEING THE PEOPLE THAT THIS AFFECTS.

SO THEY GO ON TV THINKING HEY I'M DOING NOTHING WRONG.

IT'S NOT LIKE I'VE STOLEN CANDY FROM A BABY.

IT IS A DIFFERENT FORM OF CRIME SO I THINK THEY FEEL LIKE THEY'RE INVINCIBLE AND THEY DID NOTHING WRONG.

BUT THEY CLEARLY DID.

>> O'Connell: WANT TO STAY A LOOK AT A PIECE FROM WASHINGTON POST OPINION WRITER WHO WRITES THIS LEVEL OF SORDIDNESS IS NOT WHAT VIEWS ARE HERE FOR.

I DON'T WANT TO SEE CRIMINALS BUYING BIR CONSIDEREN BAGS WHILE STRUGGLING TO PAY THEIR BILLS.

FAILING TO SHOW UP TO A REUNION ON MAKING RACIST COMMENTS BUT STEALING FROM WIDOWS OR ORPHANS THIS IS BAD TELEVISION.

ANGELA I DISCLOSE I'M AN EMPLOYEE AT NBC YOOUFERLS ALTHOUGH I HAVE NO INVOLVEMENT AT ALL WITH BRAVO BUT SHOULD BRAVO AND OTHER DHANLS HOST THESE REALITY SHOWS THAT END UP HAVING PEOPLE -- BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE PEOPLE AND THEY'RE GOING TO COMMIT CRIMES.

DID BRAVO HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY AT SOME POINT ESPECIALLY AROUND JEN SHAH TO REMOVE HER FROM THE SHOW, OR WERE THEY DOING WHAT WE EXPECT TO HAPPEN IN AMERICA, SHE'S INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY?

>> YOU KNOW, I THINK THEY SHOULD LOOK AT IT AS A SCAIS CAIS CASE-BY-CASE PAVES.

WITH JEN SHAW IT WAS USEFUL TO HAVE BEAM SEEING THAT.

WITH ALL THE ATTENTION ON IT AND ALL THE NEWS MEDIA AND THE AWARENESS THAT SURROUNDS IT NOW I THINK IT'S ACTUALLY REALLY GOING TO HELP ADDITIONAL PEOPLE FROM BECOMING POTENTIAL VICTIMS.

THEY'RE GOING TO THINK TWICE WHEN THEY GET THAT PHONE CALL ABOUT WORK FROM HOME.

THEY'RE GOING TO THINK TWICE ABOUT THAT.

ONE OF THE BIG THINGS WITH THESE SCAMS THAT MAKES THEM SO INSID USE IS THEY CATCH PEOPLE AT A WEAK MOMENT AND THEY'RE EMBARRASSED TO REPORT IT.

THE LIGHT THAT WAS SHOWN ON THIS AND EVERYBODY GETTING A BIGGER UNDERSTANDING OF HOW THESE THINGS WORK I THINK IS A VERY GOOD THING IN THE CASE OF JEN SHAH.

>> O'Connell: CESIE, WE TALKED ABOUT THE TOP THREE THINGS THAT PEOPLE CAN LOOK AT.

WHAT OTHER REALITY SHOWS ARE IN SOME SORT OF LEGAL JEOPARDY?

>> JUST ABOUT ALL OF THEM, JUST ABOUT EVERY SHOW.

WITHIN THE BRAVO UNIVERSITY AS ANGELA HAS MENTIONED, TERESA AND JOE, THE BIGGEST PARALLEL TO JEN SHAH'S IN TERMINATES OF THE DEPTH -- >> THOSE ARE THE NEW JERSEY HOUSE WIEFTS.

>> CORRECT.

WE ALSO COVER ANOTHER HOUSEWIVES IN THE REAL HOUSEWIVES OF SALT LAKE CITY, THAT IS MORE FOR TAX IEBS.

WE -- THERE IS A LOT OF NEW JERSEY UNFORTUNATELY.

THERE IS A LOT OF BANKRUPTCIES THAT OCCURS IN ORANGE COUNTY.

THERE IS ERICA GRARDI AND TOM GRARDI'S, LEGAL TROUBLES FINANCE WE SHOULD MENTION THEM.

>> O'Connell: IT IS NOT JUST HOT TEA YOU ARE PROVIDING ON THE DOCKET.

YOU ARE PLAING TO US WHAT THE LEGALESE WHAT IT MEANS.

IS IT SURPRISING THAT THIS IS A CALLING YOU AND CESIE YOU ARE BOTH PRACTICING LAWYERS BUT THERE WOULD BE SO MUCH BOUNTY MERE FOR YOU TO HELP EXPLAIN THE LAW TO PEOPLE WHO ARE WATCHING REALITY TV AND THEN WAN WANT TO KEEP UP WITH WHAT'S HAPPENING TO THEIR FAVORITE OR NOT SO FAVORITE VILLAINS OR PEOPLE ON THE SHOW?

>> WE'VE JUST BEEN SO GRATEFUL FOR THE OPPORTUNITY TO USE OUR SKILLS AND LAW DEGREES.

WE ARE BOTH FRACTING ATTORNEYS.

YOU KNOW, AND COMBINING IT WITH THE TOPIC THAT WE ARE INTERESTED IN.

I USED TO BE ASHAMED TO ADMIT I WATCHED REALITY TV BUT NOW WE HAVE A PODCAST THAT A TON OF PEOPLE LIRCHL TO AND DOING IT IN AN ENTERTAINING WAY, IT IS SO GREAT TO TEACH PEOPLE ABOUT 44 AND HOW SENTENCING WORKS AND THESE ISSUES THAT YOU DON'T LEARN OTHERWISE, THAT PEOPLE DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO UNLESS SOMEONE IS A LAWYER THAT YOU CAN ASK, WE ARE THAT FRIEND THAT IS A LAWYER THAT LIKES REALITY TV.

>> O'Connell: I APPRECIATE YOU JOINING US.

YOU CAN FIND BRAVO DOCKET, FOR MORE INFORMATION YOU CAN HEAD OVER TO thebravodocket.com.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING ME.

SPHWHRITS A PLEASURE.

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT.

WE'LL BE BACK TOMORROW.

THANKS FOR WATCHING.

GOOD NIGHT.