- [Narrator] Support for "Overheard With Evan Smith" comes from HillCo Partners, a Texas government affairs consultancy, Claire and Carl Stuart, Christine and Philip Dial, and the Eller Group specializing in crisis management, litigation and public affairs communication, ellergroup.com.

- I'm Evan Smith.

He's a six-time Grammy award-winning singer/songwriter whose new album is "Foxes in the Snow."

He's Jason Isbell.

This is "Overheard."

(lively music) A platform and a voice is a powerful thing.

(audience cheering) You really turn the conversation around about what leadership should be about.

Are we blowing this?

Are we doing the thing we shouldn't be doing by giving in to the attention junkie?

As an industry, we have an obligation to hold ourselves to the same standards that we hold everybody else.

- [Director] Cue.

- This is overheard.

(audience applauding) Jason Isbell, welcome.

Thank you.

Thank you for having me, Evan.

- Thank you so much for being here.

Congratulations on the new record.

- Thank you.

- Can I fanboy for a second?

- Yes, please.

- I love this record.

- Thank you.

- You had me at you and a guitar.

- Yeah.

- Right?

- Yeah.

- Why this particular record and why now?

The way you approached it and the timing of it, why now?

- You know, I felt like I don't wanna keep doing different versions of the same thing, and that's a big challenge.

I'm 46, I've been touring, making records for 25 years now, and a lot of what I've done over the last decade, for me personally, has worked.

So I've been able to figure out how to navigate the creative challenges of making records that I can live with, that I can be happy with.

And the last album I did full band, "Weathervanes," I produced that myself.

And, you know, I felt like I did everything I wanted to do.

I went in without any ego, without anything to prove, without needing to feel like I needed to give reasons why I was a producer, and not just a recording artist or a songwriter.

And so this time around, I wanted something very different, but I didn't wanna be weird for the sake of being weird, you know?

And usually for me, if I'm looking for a new creative challenge, I just go back to the song and then serve the song in the best possible way.

So when I set out to write this record, I thought, "Well, what would make sense?

What would be really, really difficult, but also possible?

And would make the most sense at this point in my career?"

- Yeah.

And so you stripped everything down.

- Yeah, I just went into a studio with a guitar, and a notebook, and made a record.

I didn't do any overdubs, anything like that.

And, you know, it was hard.

That's hard to do.

It's hard to sing and play at the same time.

We forget (audience chuckling) with all this modern technology, you know, but it was very fulfilling for me.

I feel like it was, at least from a personal standpoint, it was a success.

- It's a beautiful record to listen to.

- Thank you.

Thank you.

- Do you care where people, speaking of listening to it, do you care where people listen to it?

I'm always interested in interviewing musicians about the business of music.

I don't wanna spend too much time on this, but I'm just curious to know where you come down.

I listen to it on Spotify.

- Yeah.

- And then I felt guilty and I bought it on Bandcamp.

- Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I like this.

- Because I didn't you not to have the money.

That is an acceptable... What I want is for everyone... (audience chuckling) I want everyone to give me money.

- Yes.

Okay.

(audience laughing) Noted, noted.

- Yeah, whatever leads to that, I wanna ask for it.

I just want it to come in the mail.

(audience chuckling) - How do you feel about that?

Because obviously, there've been fights between people like you, and the apps, and the streaming services.

Are we getting enough for this?

Or people basically just taking our stuff and, you know.

I just wonder where you come down on that.

- It's a long and nuanced conversation, but I will say that the way the system has been set up for a long time meant that you couldn't just plug in streaming capability and expect the artist and the songwriter to get a fair share.

- Right.

- Not necessarily because of the streaming, but because of the way the music business has been set up for a long time.

I mean, it's not quite as regulated as some other industries.

And big corporations, people with a lot of money, they've taken advantage of that for decades.

- This is not new.

- This is not new.

- So do you think at all about this stuff?

- I think a lot about this stuff.

But I own my record label.

- Right.

- And I get, you know, two checks from Spotify.

I get one that goes to the record label and one that goes to the artist.

And they're very different the size of those checks.

- Yeah, so you actually can see the difference.

- I can see the difference.

- With your own eyes.

- Yes.

- So let's come back to the approach of this record.

So I've read an interview with you in which you talked about why you approached it this way, you and your guitar, not the 400 Unit on this record, you and your guitar.

One thing you said was, "Well, it's easier.

Logistically, it's easier.

I get to basically control the process.

I don't have to work out the arrangements with my band."

But you also said it was emotionally easier.

And that gets to the second part.

You said, "There's a lot of heavy stuff on this record, and I didn't need the band to participate in that darkness.

- Yes, yes.

- That's what you said.

Talk about that.

- It's true.

Yeah, I mean, all of the records that I do are personal.

And one of my rules that I've always had as a songwriter is if something makes me feel uncom...

If I write a line in a song, and I feel uncomfortable about it, it has to stay in the song.

- Yeah.

- You know?

And this is tough, but this is the job.

- It's discipline, right?

- Yes.

But this is what happens when you make your own job.

When you create the job that you want, then you have to go by the rules, you know?

And so that's the discipline is what leads me to, I think, a point where I'm offering something that's a little bit different from what other songwriters might be offering.

So if I break those rules, then I'm doing a different job.

And I've been through a lot of changes in the last couple of years.

You know, I went through a divorce, I've moved into a different place, and I've started over in some ways and continued on in other ways.

And documenting that felt like something that I wanted to do on my own in a way.

- Yeah.

Nobody else in the room.

- Right, right.

Yeah.

Because, I mean, my band will cry sometimes.

(audience chuckling) - Right.

- You know, I'll play a song for 'em the first time, and I'll look up and they'll all be crying.

I'll be like, "I'm so sorry, guys."

You know?

(audience chuckling) - Well, you know, to be honest, there are, look, if you listen to this record, there are some really sad, moving, emotional songs on this record.

No question.

It felt like, to me, a therapy session, it felt like a confessional, felt a little bit like an explanation, not that you owed us one.

- [Jason] Yeah.

- For what's happened over the last couple years.

- Right, right.

And I'm close to my band, like, we're friends.

We love each other, you know?

We hug, (audience chuckling) and they've seen my life change firsthand.

We spent a lot of time together, play a lot of shows.

And, you know, musically, their contributions are always welcomed, and always necessary.

And I feel like now that we're working these songs up as a full band, it makes sense.

But when I was gonna go in there for the spark of creation, I feel like I needed to do that alone, you know?

With just some microphones and a guitar.

- So let me go there.

- Yeah.

- Okay?

- Let's go there, Evan.

- You talked about the divorce, you talked about the split from your wife, Amanda Shires, who was also a band member in the 400 Unit.

- Sort of, she played with us when she wasn't touring and I went and played with her.

- But she kind of considers the 400 Unit to have been one of her credits, right?

- Yeah, I think so.

- She played in it.

- Yeah.

The breakup seems to have been a driving force narratively on this record, right.

"Gravelweed," my favorite song on the record, right?

Seems to be largely about that is by listening to it.

- Yeah, yeah.

- There's a line in it, "I'm sorry the Love songs all mean different things today."

It's a very, a sort of poetic line.

It's a reflection on the relationship coming to an end and how we and how you see that period of your life.

How difficult is it for that to be the...

I mean, this is personal for you obviously.

How difficult is that for that to be the basis for your stuff?

- For the work you mean?

- Yeah.

I mean, you're just letting it all hang out there.

- I don't have anything to compare it to though.

I mean, I've always done that.

I feel like if something's possible, it's hard for me to judge how difficult it is.

And I've always done that with my songs.

I mean, when I first started writing-- - This is not the most personal record you've done.

- Maybe.

I don't know.

That's just my job.

That's the job that I made for myself.

So if you go back through the other albums, there's a lot of really almost private things on those records.

I think the work that I wanna do is to sit across the table from the version of myself that I might not be the most comfortable with, and be able to stay in the chair long enough to work that into something that is art, you know?

- [Evan] Yeah.

- That's not an easy gig, - But the art is sort of for us.

I'm wondering if, for you though, if the benefit of this is that you're working it out kind of as you go up here.

- In some ways.

You know, I think it's more of an exorcism than a therapy session 'cause I... (audience chuckling) - Yeah.

- You know, like I do actual therapy.

- Yeah.

(audience chuckling) And it's not like this.

- No.

- No.

- I just did that before I came over here to tell you the truth.

- Yeah.

(audience chuckling) - You may need it again when this is over.

(audience chuckling) - I'll need it again at least every week, (audience chuckling) if not more.

But truthfully, it's about sharing an experience.

It's about documenting an experience, offering it up and saying, "Does anyone else feel this way?"

And that's the most you're gonna get out of any song.

That's the most towns Van Zant ever got out of a song, or Bob Dylan is this is my weird life.

Do you understand it, you know?

Do you have any experience that is similar?

And if you get a yes, you are a successful songwriter.

And if you get a no, then you're lying to yourself and everybody else.

- Yes, I'm interested in how you've always been an open book.

Like all the interviews over the years you've done, you've talked about the breakup of your marriage and your new partner.

- [Jason] Yeah.

- You've talked about, which we'll come to in a second, your sobriety, which is now going 13 years, right?

I mean, you've been very public about this stuff.

That feels like that had to have been a deliberate decision on your part because not everybody in your situation, hardly anybody in your situation is as public about that stuff as you have been.

- Yes.

Well, I was an only child.

That's what did it.

- Is that right?

You needed somebody talk to, is that what it was?

- I was so used to everybody listening to what I said.

- Yeah.

Right.

(all laughing) But also, like a little over 13 years ago, I got sober and the recovery process taught me a lot of stuff.

And one of those things was if you just go ahead and tell everybody the truth, it's not gonna come back to haunt you later.

- [Evan] Yeah.

- And that's tough.

It's painful, it's painful but I sleep good, you know, because there aren't any surprises.

And I live by that.

I don't know if that's the right move or not but I think part of my version of the human experience is just really picking a strategy and sticking with it.

I think that's about as good I can do.

- And being an open book is your strategy.

- That's my strategy, like, here's who I am.

- Right, lay it all out there.

- This is how my life is.

These are why I make the decisions I make.

- Right.

- And at the very least, you're not gonna get surprised when somebody finds something out about you.

- Right, 'cause it's already out there.

- It's already out there, what are you gonna do?

You know?

- How are you and the band?

I wondered about that when I saw that this was a solo record.

Then I read a little bit and I was like, "Okay, he's taking a little bit of a detour to do this record himself."

But you've had a little bit of change in the band, right?

- Yes.

Yes.

- I'm shocked to see that the 400 Unit's first record, your first record with the band was 2009.

- Yeah.

Yeah.

- So it's been 16 years.

- Yes.

- With this band.

You were only in the Drive-By Truckers for six.

- [Jason] That's right.

Yeah.

- But if I say to somebody, as I did this week, "Well, I'm gonna interview Jason Isbell."

They say, "Oh, the guy from the Drive-By Truckers."

- Right, right, right.

- You're still associated with a band that you only were in for like a third of the time.

- I know.

It's crazy.

- How is the relationship with this band.

- You know, Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie were married for two years.

(audience chuckling) - And yet we're still Brangelina-ing, right?

That's it.

- Two years out of all the years of the world.

- Right.

Just two?

- Just two.

- Just two.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- So talk to me about the 400 Unit and how you are with the band right now.

How you feel about that.

- We just hate each other's guts.

- Yeah, I bet, I bet.

- Yeah.

(all chuckling) Every morning we get up and kick each other in the shins and go to work.

No, you know, I love my band, and things change.

Some people are better on the road than others.

And the thing is I've noticed this lately is we're getting older.

And that's pretty strange.

- It is.

- That's pretty strange 'cause it takes a lot.

You know, it used to be we would do so many shows, like, you know, 150 shows a year or something.

And we would just be like pushing, pushing, pushing.

And we'd be tired, but we're always tired.

We always felt terrible.

We in the van, we're going, we're doing the work.

Now, you know, I realize that it's kind of a physical job.

- Yeah.

- And you have to take into consideration people have families, people have spouses, people have other things they want to do with their time, and it makes sense.

So you have to navigate this.

- Well, we were talking before we came out here.

You have a nine-year-old daughter.

- I have a nine-year-old daughter, yeah.

- And the thing about being on the road all this time is you don't get that time back.

- That's true.

- Right?

Let me talk to you about getting sober because this is a big narrative through line in your story.

And you talk about it all the time.

It'd be a little weird to talk about it if you didn't talk about it all the time, but you're holding the door open, I'm gonna walk through.

- Right, right.

- What happened?

- What happened?

- What happened?

- I drank my allotted amount of alcohol.

- Yeah.

(audience chuckling) - And I just did it quickly.

- Did you know you had a problem?

- I mean, at a certain point, yes, you know?

At first, I didn't know I had a problem.

The thing is it wasn't just knowing that I had a problem, it's knowing that I had a lot of problems.

- [Evan] Right.

- And, you know, drinking allowed me to postpone dealing with those things.

- Yeah.

- And that was nice for a long time.

And then, you know, if you don't deal with your emotions, they will deal with you.

And so eventually, it was just a matter of, you know, eventually I'm gonna have to feel something.

But yeah, toward the end, I certainly realized I drink way too much, and I don't think I can stop on my own.

- Yeah.

and you've talked about how during the period of time you were in the Drive-By Truckers, this was really a problem.

- And there are parts of it that you're kind of a little bit hazy on during those years.

- Yeah, I mean, I remember most of it, but, you know, having a drinking problem in the Drive-By Truckers at that time, you know, it was sort of like having a caddy on the PGA Tour, you know?

(audience chuckling) It kinda was part of the deal.

- Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

- But I just was very young and probably, you know, drank more than everybody else in the group, and had some problems with it.

- Look at what has happened though since.

I mean, that said, 13 years, - It turned out to be a very good idea.

(audience chuckling) - I was interested in when you talked about this record, when you have talked about this record that you've said, "I made decisions kind of in my life in the last couple of years that maybe not everybody would've made."

- But, you know, if you've been a drinker and then you are sober, you have to make decisions to solve for not becoming unsober.

I think the way you said it was, "The risk of relapse is a train."

- Yeah.

- "And if you see the train coming from far enough off, you know to get off the tracks."

- [Jason] Yep.

- "If you don't see the train coming and it's too late, it's an F-ing train."

- Yes, I think that's what I said.

- That is I think exactly what you said.

- Yeah.

- Right?

And that's a really interesting way to think about it.

Like, you're always solving for this.

That's why they say recovering, not ex.

- Yes, exactly right.

And not like... You know, they don't say, "I used to be an alcoholic or an addict."

They say, "I am," you know?

But yeah, it's that.

I mean, it's tough, but it seems to work best for me.

You know, I just won't let things continue if I feel like they need to change.

I'm not the kind of person who thinks, you know, "Time is gonna solve everything.

And if I just keep on going the way I'm going, it's gonna be fine."

I won't do that.

And I'm very, very privileged to be able to make those decisions.

- Right.

Not everybody can.

- Not everybody can.

Some people are trying to get fed, trying to get rent paid, trying to get, you know, their family taken care of, and they don't have time to sit, and think, "What's gonna make me happy 10 years from now?"

- Yeah, well, in the same way that the Truckers are part of your brand these days, even though it's been a while, the fact that you're sober is also part of your brand.

And that's partly because you've done that.

And I think a lot of people admire you for how you've lived your life.

- It helped me.

You know, being accountable in that way helped me 'cause now, you know, there's so many people I would let down if I relapsed, if I had another drink.

And that's not necessarily the first line of defense, but it might be the last one, you know?

If I'm in the process of reaching for a glass of whiskey, I'd think, "I don't know, man.

The fans are gonna hate this.

Well, I'll put it back down and slide it over."

- By the way, that's water.

- That is water.

(audience chuckling) This is water.

But there's really water in there, so that's good.

- So we're clear, yeah, yeah, yeah.

We have some minutes-- - "Overserved with Evan Smith."

- Well, that's... (all laughing) (audience cheering) - I like that.

That could be the podcast.

- Yeah.

That's the podcast.

- That's the podcast after the show.

- Everybody's in their pajamas.

- That's exactly right.

We have a couple of minutes.

I wanna talk about your experience growing up.

You were born in Greenhill, Alabama.

- [Jason] Yep.

- You were in a family where music was a constant, right?

People in your family, grandfather, uncles, played instruments.

And you learned at a young age.

I think you played the mandolin at six?

- Yeah, six/seven years old.

- You learned how to play the mandolin at six?

- Yeah.

Yeah.

- And you were in bands as a kid growing up.

- Yep, I was in a bunch of garage bands and country bands and stuff.

- What were the names of some of these bands?

I'm always curious about that.

- Ooh.

- Let's see.

We had a band called Lieutenant Dan.

(audience chuckling) 'Cause you know, Forrest Gump was from Alabama.

- I was about to say Forrest Gump.

Good Forrest Gump joke.

That's excellent, yeah.

- And then we had one called Young Country.

But this was kind of a successful act.

- [Evan] Yeah.

- We won some like Battles of the Bands, and we got to play at some venues in Nashville and stuff.

And then our lead singer, there was a girl that sang for us, she punched her boyfriend and broke her finger.

And so she was in a cast, so she was holding her microphone, but her pinky was in the cast pointing straight up.

Yeah, and so she had to sing like this.

And then she got pregnant, and the band just sort of dissolved.

(audience chuckling) - Life happens.

- Life happens.

But that was me and my best friend, Chris Tompkins, were in that band.

And I was like 15, 16, he was a year older.

And he didn't like to tour.

He didn't like to play live.

And now he's written, I think 17 number one country songs.

- Is that so?

- Yeah.

He moved to Nashville years before I did.

He wrote "Before He Cheats" for Carrie Underwood.

And then just a whole string of hits after that.

- Hasn't written for you?

- He's not, we've written together, we wrote a song together that was on a Highwomen album.

Me and him and Amanda wrote "If She Ever Leaves Me" for the Highwomen record.

- [Evan] Oh wow.

- The three of us wrote that together.

Yeah, and we've written songs together but it's a very different approach.

He calls what I do artsy.

(audience chuckling) - Well... - Yeah.

- I mean, in fairness.

- Yeah, yeah.

- And it's like Rick-- - It is sort of, right?

- It is.

Like Rick Hall, who was the famous record producer from Muscle Shoals where I got my start, first person to pay me to work in the music business.

I remember him coming into the studio while a few folks were making a more independent sounding record.

And he come in and he said, "This must be nice.

I remember when we had to record hits."

You know?

(audience chuckling) - Sick burn.

- Yeah.

- Right?

Yes.

- Yeah, but it's that kind of thing.

Like, it's a different... Chris sits down in a room with people, and they're trying to make a hit, you know?

And I sit there and I'm trying to make people cry.

It's a different gig.

- Different deal.

- Yeah.

- Did you play the Grand Ole Opry at some point in your teen years?

- Yes, we did.

We did yhe Opry with that band.

- [Evan] You and Chris?

- Yeah.

And I think I was 15.

And this was part of... You remember Jimmy Dean, the singer?

And he had the sausage.

- Sausages.

- Yeah.

- It's a pretty good sausage.

- Most people remember the sausage.

- Yes.

- Yeah, right.

- Yes, it's funny how, you know, the sausage probably lasted two years and his singing career.

- Yeah, exactly.

(audience chuckling) - But he had this thing at the Ryman where if you won a couple of like regional Battle of the Band contests, you could perform there as part of his showcase.

And we did that.

And then we played at the place, it used to be the Wildhorse Saloon in downtown Nashville.

Opened for Radney Foster, a Texan songwriter, a wonderful songwriter Radney Foster.

Yeah, so we played some pretty big gigs.

I had a cowboy hat and a bolo tie.

It was legit.

- Different time.

- It was a different time, yeah.

It wasn't quite as cool to have a cowboy hat.

But this was pre-Malone, so you know-- - So did you, in that time, how you got connected with the Drive-By Truckers initially I think was through the dad of one the people in the band.

- Patterson's dad, David Hood, a bass player from the Swampers, Muscle Shoals Rhythm Section.

And I would go around, me and Chris and Chad, my drummer now, and a bunch of our friends.

We would go around to all the restaurants, and bars, and venues and listen to these guys play when we were kids.

And they would get us up to sit in, and we got to be friends with them.

And then I met Patterson through that 'cause Patterson had moved out of town.

- Right.

- He made, you know, kind of punk music.

And so there wasn't really a place for him in north Alabama at the time.

Yeah, and so he moved to college town to Athens, Georgia, and started his band there.

And then when he would come back to visit, and stay with his dad or with his dad's friends or whatever, we got introduced to each other that way and hit it off really quickly.

- Yeah.

So Drive-By Truckers is 2001 to 2007.

We said 400 Unit becomes part of your deal in '09.

I wanna fact check this.

The 400 Unit is the name of the psych ward at a hospital in Florence, Alabama.

- Yeah, it was, I think they've changed it now, which is probably my fault.

- So your band is named for the psych ward?

- Yes, well, we'd pull into town, and I would give everybody their per diem, you know, 10 bucks.

And we'd get outta the van and we would go get lunch and, you know, scare the locals pretty badly, and say some really inappropriate things.

And, you know, and we were harmless, but they were terrified of us.

- But still.

- Yeah.

We'd try to get a sandwich without getting arrested.

Get back in the van and go to the next town.

And I remember after seeing that a couple of times, I was like, you know what this reminds me of?

On Wednesdays, the 400 Unit will bring everyone down in the van, and they'll give 'em a name tag, and 10 bucks, and they'll go out, and they'll get a sandwich.

- So this is just like that.

- It's just like that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I mean, I guess it's a little insensitive now, but they did have me back.

(audience chuckling) - We'll edit that out in post.

- Yeah.

- That's fine, yeah.

But they did have me back to judge the talent show at the 400 Unit.

- At the hospital?

- Yeah, yeah, yeah.

- [Evan] Oh, wow.

- And some of 'em were really great.

- Well, they're in on the joke, I guess.

- Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Some of them were really, really, really good.

Some of 'em were not, but some of 'em weren't, yeah.

- Before we go, what are you listening to?

What should we be listening to?

- I like the new Bon Iver record.

Will Johnson from my rock and roll band has put out a record.

He's a Texan gentleman, and he put out a record today actually.

Will Johnson as his 10th solo rec...

He's been making music since the early '90s.

- So not only can you put out solo records, but so can other people.

- Yeah, I mean, a lot of members of my band have done that.

Sadler's done it, Anna Butterss has done it.

Will's done it many times.

Will's record is out.

It's very, very good.

- [Evan] Yeah.

- Let's see, what else?

I love Waxahatchee, Katie Crutchfield.

- [Evan] Right.

- I think she's really good.

- Yeah, I gotta say plus one.

She's great.

- She's really, really good.

- She is great.

- And also, you know, I've got a nine-year-old daughter, so I am very familiar with the Top 10 right now.

(audience chuckling) You know?

- I am not.

So anything you say, I'll just be like nodding along.

- I like the Gracie Abrams record.

I like the Tate McCrae record.

I think it's really good pop music.

You know, my daughter is tired of me listening to Charli xcx over and over and over and over.

- Really?

- Yeah, yeah.

But I think it's good.

The other day actually, she said, "Dad, I think we should start listening to some of the male singers on the pop stations, because I have some friends who are boys."

And up until now I've always just said, "Let's skip that."

You know?

So now I've learned that Benson Boone has some pretty good songs.

You know, Teddy Swims is pretty good.

I just put on the pop music, drive her to school, and then after I drop her off, I'm like, "Eh, this is putting me in a pretty good mood.

I think I'm gonna"-- - Not the worst stuff in the world.

- Not the worst.

I love Lisa.

I'm a huge fan of Lisa from Blackpink.

I love Lisa.

- That's great.

- Yep.

- Thank you for making time to be here.

- Thank you, Evan.

Thank you for having me.

- Congratulations on the record and good luck with everything.

Jason Isbell.

Thank you.

All right, good, thanks.

(audience applauding) We'd love to have you join us in the studio.

Visit our website at austinpbs.org/overheard to find invitations to interviews, Q&As with our audience and guests, and an archive of past episodes.

- I was fortunate to be raised by people who weren't hateful, and that I think did everything for me.

It gave me that kind of perspective, you know, and they didn't prejudge people based on skin color or sexual preference, or, you know, they just weren't hateful people.

- [Announcer] Support for "Overheard With Evan Smith" comes from HillCo Partners, a Texas government affairs consultancy, Claire and Carl Stuart, Christine and Philip Dial, and the Eller Group specializing in crisis management, litigation and public affairs communication, ellergroup.com.

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