♪ >> Hello and welcome to another edition of Canada Files.

I'm Jim Deeks.

Our guest on this episode is Jean Charest.

Whose name will be familiar to 99% of Canadians.

Not as much to our American viewers.

Mr. Charest served as Liberal Premier, basically governor, of the predominantly French-speaking province of Quebec for nearly 9 years, a decade ago.

Prior to that, he was the leader of the National Conservative Party for five years.

In the estimation of many Canadians, he could, would and should have made a fine prime minister.

>> Jean Charest, good to have you with us.

>> Thank you very much Jim.

>> Let's talk first about a Canadian issue, our American viewers would be aware of, from decades ago.

One that many Americans and people outside Canada have found confusing, if not incomprehensible.

That is the on-going rocky relationship between French-speaking Quebec and the rest of Canada.

Many people will remember that over the years, Quebec has come quite close to separating from Canada.

Can you, as a bilingual Quebecer, someone very involved in the issue at its most intense, a generation ago, explain for people who may not understand.

Why has it been so contentious over the years?

>> Canada has a very different history from the US.

The country was initially founded by the French.

The French had discovered La Nouvelle France, New France.

Had occupied then lost it in a battle in 1759 against the British forces.

The Treaty of Versailles in 1764 handed over what was La Nouvelle France to the Brits.

There starts our history.

This became British North America.

Distinct from the US, and with its colonies.

What we experienced over the years was a country that was founded by French and English speaking people under British rule.

There were French speaking people in every province... Ontario, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Manitoba.

As the country grew, the nexus of the French speakers is the province of Quebec.

Where there's a strong majority, now a population of 8 million.

80% are of French-speaking origin.

It's the official language, the language of work.

In the 1960s to the 80s, there was a nationalism movement based on the language: its defence, culture.

The sense of threat was unless we become an independent country, for those promoting this, our future as a French-speaking people will be threatened.

This built up over the years with the election of a separatist government in '76.

First referendum in 1980 which was defeated with a pretty decisive vote of 60 / 40.

Then another referendum in 1995, fairly recently.

With a very tight result of 50.5% in favour of staying in Canada.

With a 94% participation rate in the election campaign.

This has been a divisive issue.

In my own career, I have led federalist forces.

My position politically has always been on the federalist side of the equation.

Both federally and as Premier of Quebec from 2003 to 2012.

I was very involved in this referendum.

We're dealing with a very strong sense of nationalism.

Not a majority sentiment but a minority of French-speaking people.

There's still a strong core who continue to think Quebec should separate from the rest of Canada.

That core will not go away.

It will be there forever.

Today, the sentiment in favour of separatism is low.

>> You said in 1995, last referendum came within 1% of succeeding.

The people were asked, "Do you want to separate from Canada and form an independent nation?"

I'm sure you thought many times if that vote had gone the other way, what would have happened between then and now.

>> We would literally have walked into a black hole.

We subsequently found out in debriefs, after the campaign, that the government forces on both sides didn't have a very good idea of how they would proceed in breaking up a country.

Breaking up a country isn't something that happens a lot.

It's messy.

It's like making bouillabaisse .

Good luck if you want to put the fish back together again.

The best example we have of a real experience of something similar, but not the same, is the UK breaking away from Europe.

Look how difficult that is... as we speak!

Much more complicated than what they thought.

But behind all this is the bigger question.

If Quebec separated, would it survive as a country?

Yes, it would.

It would get along.

It would do its thing.

That's not the real issue.

What's in the real and best interests of the French-speaking people of Quebec?

There's no doubt in my mind that being part of Canada gives French-speaking Quebecers a much broader voice in the world.

Allows us to share common values and pool our resources.

We have access to this extraordinary country.

Let's be brutally frank.

Does anyone born, or living in Canada, think this is a bad place to be?

All the countries in the world to be born, excuse me for being so patriotic Canada is first on my list.

Being born in Canada is like winning the lottery!

There's not much of a case to break up the country.

Had we walked into that black hole, I think it would have been a mess.

Extremely difficult to undo what we put together over a few centuries.

>> Would you have seen yourself as being the Prime Minister of an independent Quebec?

>> That's an interesting question.

I never really thought...

I have difficulty seeing myself, if only for one reason.

My life has been very much the story of Canada.

I know the country very well.

I love Canada very deeply.

But I know the country.

I know its strengths, weaknesses and people.

I always saw myself as very much a Canadian.

There's no contradiction.

There's debates whether you can be a Quebecer and a Canadian.

All of this is nonsense.

The fact is I'm a Quebecer and a Canadian.

I had a French Canadian father.

My mother was of Irish origin.

We have multiple identities.

We're not a piece of sausage you cut up.

All of this is part of our modern life.

I'm very comfortable in my skin.

I like the idea of who I am.

It would be a tragedy if we were to lose Canada as a country.

I hope it will never happen in my lifetime.

Certainly not in the lifetime of my kids!

>> Let's talk about your career in politics.

Which started the day after Pierre Trudeau, the father of our current Prime Minister, resigned as Prime Minister in 1984.

There were a few months before the next election.

At that point, you were a young promising bilingual lawyer, in your hometown of Sherbrooke, Quebec.

You were persuaded to run for the Conservative Party in that national election.

Was politics always on your radar as a future career at that point?

>> When I was very young, I wanted to be a criminal lawyer and do trials before a judge and jury.

I'd seen Perry Mason and thought this was the best job in the world.

My parents said, at 12 years old I wanted to be a trial lawyer.

I did become a trial lawyer in defence.

I did a few trials before judge and jury.

But politics was always in our families' lives.

My father, grandfather, great grandfather came from Conservative backgrounds.

We enjoyed politics.

But I never decided I wanted to get elected young.

Or do it rapidly.

Things happen in life.

In my case, I got involved in the leadership race of the party in 1983.

Then ran for the nomination.

There was a wave in '84.

I was lucky.

I got elected with a wave in my back.

I was a good candidate, I think.

But I was a young man.

Circumstances were favourable.

So I was elected at 26 years old.

Started a 28 year career.

I never thought it would last that long.

It was quite extraordinary... ups and downs, successes and failures.

But an extraordinary period for me in my life.

>> Running as a Conservative in 1984 was a gutsy thing to do in Quebec.

The Conservative Party certainly had its ups and downs in Quebec history.

It's generally regarded as more of an English-speaking national party.

How did you pull it off?

You mentionned a wave.

What happened in '84 that got you elected to national parliament?

>> In 1984, there was a few things at work.

The fact that the Liberals had been in government a long time.

They had been in government with Mr. Trudeau... and Mr. Pearson since 1963.

With one short hiatus in 1979, of eight months of a Conservative government.

By 1984, the theme has changed.

That was a big part of it.

The other part was Brian Mulroney.

He was the leader of the Progressive Conservative Party at the time and led an exceptional campaign.

He reached out to Quebec.

He's from Quebec, the lower North Shore.

He said to Quebecers, "If you elect our government, we're going to work to make you a part of the country."

It did eventually translate into a round of constitutional amendments and an attempt to change the Constitution that failed.

It led to the '95 referendum.

He had a very strong plea to Quebecers to be part of a national government and they followed!

I don't think they ever regretted that.

French-speaking and people in Quebec, to this day, have a very strong appreciation of Prime Minister Mulroney, his government and the openness he had towards the people of Quebec.

>> You ultimately became leader of the national Conservative Party for about five years, during the 1990s.

Then you were persuaded to go back to Quebec provincial politics as the leader of the Liberal Party.

Which was an amazing about-face.

Somewhat similar to Mitch McConnell returning home to Kentucky to become Democratic Governor of that state.

What led to that switch of parties?

>> It's a fairly simple story.

I became leader of the Progressive Conservative Party after a major defect in 1993.

We went from government-- I was the Deputy Prime Minister, to two members of Parliament the day after.

It was a catastrophe.

Then the referendum of '95.

in which I played a role with a very tight outcome.

Then the leader of the Liberal Party of Quebec left.

There was a movement so I replace him.

Why?

Because de facto, I became the leader of the federalist forces in Quebec.

The Liberal Party of Quebec was the federalist party in Quebec.

Mitch McConnell had left the Senate to become a Democratic Governor in Kentucky to fight off a separatist movement in Kentucky.

His number one hat was the national leader fighting off.

It was a difficult transition.

We're talking about two different worlds-- federal and provincial politics.

Keep in mind about the Canadian federation.

We have one of the most de-centralized federations in the world.

The Canadian provinces have powers that are the equivalent of sovereign countries, in some respects.

We're so de-centralized!

The only other country I know that's more decentralized than Canada is Belgium.

No-one knows how Belgium works!

That tells you how much of a federation we are.

>> You ultimately became Premier of Quebec, an office that you held for about nine years at the beginning of this century.

You retired when your government was defeated in 2013.

There were strong rumblings last year that you considered running for the leadership of the national Conservative Party again.

There were a number of leading Conservatives who thought you were definitely going to throw your hat in the ring.

Ultimately you backed off from that opportunity.

Why?

>> I gave serious thought to returning, trying to lead what is now the Conservative Party of Canada for a few reasons.

One, the party needs to have a strong national presence.

One of the forever challenges of Canada is we have a great land mass, a small diverse population base of 38 million people-- Francophones, Anglophones, First Nations.

One of the challenges is to bring the country together.

Which is a job that will always require national leadership.

What I could have brought was that sense of nation.

Having the whole country as part of it.

The other part, was to offer a vision of the country that was in tune with "we are a federation".

The provinces have their role.

The federal govt has their role.

I chose not to run because the rules around the race were designed such that it would have been impossible to win.

I could not see a path to winning.

So I chose not to run.

I continue to be involved in national issues.

I feel very strongly that this country can only succeed if we have leadership that speaks to all of the country and inclusive of all the country.

Which includes Western Canada, the east and northern parts.

That will forever be the challenge for Canadian leaders.

>> Now that Donald Trump is no longer President, what are your thoughts on Canada-US relations?

Do you think that our relationship with the US was irreparably damaged over the last four years?

>> The relationship between Canada and the US has irreparably changed over the last few years.

We're not going back, after Mr. Trump has left office, to another time that we may idealize.

The relationship started to change under the Obama administration.

Was accelerated under the Trump administration.

What Canada experienced was, our ally at the political level, would not always be at our side on every single issue.

It was the US with their internal agenda that would drive politics.

We're not offended by that.

One of the constant challenges of Canadian politics and leaders is to be able to understand the US.

Sometimes better than it understands itself.

We still don't understand it enough.

The other part of the relationship is that the US isn't only a neighbour, friend and ally.

US is a superpower .

Superpowers behave a certain way.

We're seeing that with the emergence of China as a new superpower on the world scene.

Superpowers including the US have impulses.

When a country like the US has an obstacle in front of them they tend to push it aside.

Canada has sometimes been collateral damage in that situation.

Like the Buy America Act .

This isn't new.

We've constantly had to manage the relationship so that we avoid the negative impulses.

We've been fairly successful at it.

Typically we've always found American leaders who'd keep the door open for their Canadian neighbours.

And continue to maintain this very strong relationship that we have between both countries.

And the people of both countries!

>> The geopolitical world that we've grown up in has certainly changed over the last generation.

A generation ago, it would have been laughable that Chine would be perceived as the greatest threat, economically and politically, to western civilization.

I know that you and your wife have two grandchildren.

What keeps you awake at night when you think about their future in the world ahead.

>> Your question is very timely.

We do have two beautiful grandchildren who live in Hong Kong, of all places.

My eldest daughter has been there for seven years.

She just became the chair of the Canada-Hong Kong Chamber of Commerce.

She has created a business.

They're thriving and doing well.

I do worry about unintended consequences in a conflict between China and the US.

We worried a lot about that under the Trump administration.

We're a little more reassured that the Biden administration has a much broader view of the world.

Wanting to work with allies and with us.

An important signal to us and to the world.

As we look ahead, to issues like climate change or the pandemic, what we see in a country the size of Canada is we can't attack these big issues alone.

These issues require a lot of co-operation between all of us.

With climate change and the pandemic, we need China.

On issues like trade and security, maybe we need to push back on China.

That balancing act is key.

One thing that history has taught us, the world needs American leadership.

We need American leadership at the G7, G20... on security and climate change.

If we don't have that leadership, we live in a more dangerous world.

We are happy and delighted that President Biden is of that view.

We're very respectful of the choices of Americans.

If they had chosen to re-elect Donald Trump, we would have worked with Donald Trump.

It's not for us to decide.

But we certainly find that with President Biden, we have much more in common with our view of the world than we did with President Trump.

>> What's the biggest regret you've had personally and politically in your career> >> Had I been offered to be a billionaire instead of getting my 28 years of political life, no doubt I would have chosen political life.

Family is the answer.

I'm close to my family.

What most of us who run for office have second thoughts about is, "Am I sacrificing too much?"

There's no good answer to that question.

It's forever a doubt that you carry in your mind.

Hopefully not.

That's one of the things you have in the back of your mind during your political life.

>> Would you like to see any of your children or grandchildren run for political office?

>> I think that could happen.

I have a son who writes policy columns, who is doing his doctorate in political philosophy.

He loves politics and is very involved with the Liberal Party of Quebec.

My daughter is the chair of The Canadian Chamber of Commerce in Hong Kong So they all love public policy so I think that could happen.

Now their mother doesn't think that's a good idea.

She says to them, "Don't do this to me!"

It could happen and if it does, I will take it personally, and as a compliment.

Whether they want me to or not.

>> I want to ask you what I ask all our guests on Canada Files .

In your experience and perspective, having gone across this country hundreds of times, what does being Canadian mean to you?

>> Being Canadian is someone who has a strong sense of country and community.

Who believes that a good society and community is one in which individuals are given a minimum of support and resources, starting with a good education.

Help when they need it, when they're out of a job.

As a Canadian, we believe in a country where we take care of each other.

Building social policies and a tax system that reflects that value that we share.

It means you won the first prize for citizenship.

The second prize would be being born American.

Not a bad place to be in the world right now.

>> You've have an interesting and exemplary political career over the last 30 years.

All of us can thank you for your service.

Thank you for joining us on Canada Files.

>> It has been a pleasure.

Thank you, Jim.

>> And thank you for joining us on Canada Files.

We hope to see you next time.

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