- [Announcer] Funding for "Overheard with Evan Smith" comes from Hillco Partners, a Texas government affairs consultancy.

Claire and Carl Stewart.

Christine and Philip Dial.

Eller Group, specializing in crisis management, litigation, and public affairs communication, ellergroup.com.

Diane Land and Steve Adler.

And Karey and Chris Oddo.

- I'm Evan Smith.

She's a former White House communications director who is now the co-host and executive producer of the YouTube political documentary series "Long Play".

She's Jennifer Palmieri.

This is "Overheard".

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This is "Overheard".

(audience clapping) (upbeat music ends) Jen Palmieri, welcome.

- I'm very happy to be here.

- It's always nice to see you.

- I love being in Austin, I love being with Evan.

- And I love getting to talk about "Long Play", which I enjoy so much.

But I wanna start with something in the news, and that is the ban of news organizations from the White House.

You have been the White House communications director.

You have a unique perspective on this.

- Yeah.

- What do you think?

- So, this is just so people understand you know, what the rules are.

It is once you make the decision to let the press into an area of the White House, you can no longer discriminate and pick and choose who you want to have be there, right?

- Right.

- So, once that decision was made, and then there's the White House Correspondents' Association and there's, like, a certain threshold for how many, you know, what your audience is, how often you come into the White House, are you a serious outlet that's gonna be there, that's committed to being there.

So, there are standards to meet, but once you're in, the White House can't dictate that.

- Right.

- And it is, you know, when I was White House communications director, you were very aware of what network is going to be the pool network for the next day, what correspondent is assigned, you know, because it does matter who these personalities are.

And if it's a certain personality, they're gonna be yelling at the president, you know, like, you're aware, very much, of who these individuals are.

But you cannot discriminate.

- Well, you can have a nice list and a naughty list, but you save that for Christmas, right?

- Well, you, yeah, right, right.

Well, the invites to the press party, for example, you know, that's not a constitutional right.

But it is a constitutional right, once you let the press in, that you cannot discriminate against who, if they meet the threshold, who can be there, who cannot.

But what I thought was good about this, how this is handled is how the press banded together to fight it, right?

- Right.

- So, that when it first happened, that MS NOW and Politico and CNN were banned, there is a network that is what they call the pool chair, which means they are the network that's assigned for that month or that period of time to be the head network that is covering the smaller events within the White House that's pooled press.

And Fox happened to be the chair.

And you know, this may not have always been true, but they stuck with the rest of the networks and said, "No, we will not cover anything if somebody's discriminated against."

- Fundamentally, leaving the process aside, but talking about the substance of this, this, to me, as an educated civilian, an outsider, not an insider, looks like the guy doesn't want anyone to hold him accountable.

- Sure.

- So, he bans the organizations that are holding him accountable.

- Or that he just doesn't like their coverage, or he doesn't like the individuals that cover him, or Kaitlan Collins, who's a rockstar journalist for CNN.

She in particular seems to get under his skin, the manner in which she holds him accountable.

And so, it does feel personal.

So, he can't make these decisions.

And they let them back in, and then that CNN tried to get on a flight to Tennessee when he was going to the Tennessee-Texas game, and they would not let them on.

- Just one more thing on the press before we move on.

You know, what an interesting time to be in the press corps covering this administration, right?

- Yeah.

- The threats, legal, physical, financial- - Yeah.

- Right, I mean, all the ways in which what we assumed was a relationship that, good times, bad times, would maintain, it's upside-down times, isn't it?

- Yeah, and you know, I think when you're in it and you've been doing it for, if you've been doing it for 10 or 15 or 20 years as some of these correspondents have, White Houses come, White Houses go.

You have this sort of institutional, you know, griping back and forth with each other, and you take it as just your job.

But then, all of a sudden, a moment happens when you realize, oh, there's so much more on the line than, this is not just, like, "How is my career going," or, "What kind of access am I getting?"

And, "Does it get to mean that I'm gonna produce the story tonight that I want to?"

It is like, "This is my role, like, my First Amendment duty to stand up and fight for this."

And I think all of a sudden, all of, you know, just everyone that's in America today and working in the political ecosystem, too, it's like you found, like, "Oh, all of a sudden, I have, like, a much bigger role and more responsibility."

And I think that's how you see the journalists at the White House trying to cover this.

Pentagon, too, you know?

It's very difficult circumstances, but they understand there's a lot more at stake.

- And in both cases, the health of our democracy hinges on how all this resolves.

- How this all, you know, presidents can't, they just can't decide that.

They can't decide who gets to cover them and who gets this access.

- It feels like one of those countries we don't like overseas somewhere.

- Yeah!

- Now we're acting like that.

- It feels, this is the kind of thing that if you, you know, and we would encounter this when I worked for President Clinton and President Obama and going to other countries, and we would not just fight for US press access.

We would fight- - Fight for everybody's.

- We would fight for everybody's access.

So, if we were going to, you know, Russia and China in particular, it's very difficult in terms of the access they allowed the US, but also their own journalists.

And we would go out of our way to, if somebody wasn't gonna be allowed in, You know, maybe President Clinton or President Obama would do an interview with that person, that dissident journalist, to send a signal that, you know.

- Right.

We're all dissident journalists now, it turns out, right?

- (laughs) We're all, we are!

- Sadly.

- We are all dissident journalists now.

- But inevitably, all right, so, "Long Play".

Let's talk about "Long Play".

It's great.

- Thank you.

- It's six episodes- - So, far, yeah.

- It's set in the South.

- Yeah.

- It's North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia.

It's Tennessee, it's Texas, and it's Mississippi.

- Yeah.

- Right.

Didn't do Louisiana, didn't do Alabama, didn't do Florida, didn't do Kentucky.

Those are all Southern states.

- Not yet, anyway.

- Not yet.

And some of those actually have pretty interesting political races in this cycle.

It might have been interesting to do Florida, it turns out.

- It does, but I think we're gonna come back in a couple of weeks, so, we will, and I hope to go to Florida then, because Florida- - This is for a second season.

- For a second season, for a second run of this first year of "Long Play".

So, I think Florida is super interesting now.

The gubernatorial race, David Jolly, very good athlete.

- Former Republican congressman running as a Democrat.

- Former Republican congressman running as a Democrat.

Just, you know, like how you can just objectively, like, that guy knows what he's doing.

That guy's a good candidate.

He knows how to run a good race.

He's doing well.

There's a number of competitive house races there, too.

You know, Florida's a very mercurial state in people moving in and out of there a lot.

And so, it's always, the electorate is always changing, there.

And it does feel that, I mean, this is happening everywhere in the South that people are really frustrated.

- But I think you could have assumed, Jen, as you were planning this series, say- - Why not go there?

- Nine months ago, or however long ago, you might not have looked at Florida and thought, "That's gonna be a competitive state in this cycle."

- I mean, we did, I mean, we did not, we made a decision to not go to Florida because we didn't think that the races there, either the races there were not as competitive and relevant for 2026 as the other states, or, you know, we chose to go to Mississippi for a different reason, for example.

Like, we chose to go to Tennessee and Mississippi to kind of show what it looks like, in particular for Tennessee, for a state to get completely wiped out post-Callais, right?

- Yeah.

- So, after the voting rights decision there, the Tennessee State legislature was the first legislature to go back into session and change their maps.

They took their last democratically-held congressional district in the largest, the city with the largest Black population in Tennessee, Memphis- - Memphis, right.

- And divided it up into three districts.

That is one-party rule, like, across the board.

There is not a Democrat.

They have firm control of the state legislature, trying to have all nine congressional seats.

Just a kind of wipeout in the Senate race and the gubernatorial race.

And, like, okay, so that happened, what does it look like?

It looks real bad.

Tennessee is not doing well, you know?

Like, they have their education system not doing well, healthcare not doing well.

- All the social health indicators, right?

- It's the worst, the worst, it's considered, you know, by some standards, it's considered the worst place in America to raise a child, right?

So, we wanted to show, we went to Tennessee for a very specific reason that there's not a competitive race there.

But, like, it does feel like, with a lot of these places in the South where there has been one-party control, you need competition to stay fresh.

You need, the grit in the competition makes you better.

And it does feel like we're sort of coming to an end of an era, and that, you know, something is going to take its place.

And I think that you're gonna start to see more competition in all Southern states, but, you know, including Tennessee.

- It's extraordinary to me to think about what's happening in the South right now, right?

So, I live in Texas, which you could argue on one day is the South and on another day is the Southwest.

- It's the West, right, yeah, yeah.

- Right, those are different.

- It's also just Texas!

- Which is it's like its own country, famously.

- It is like its own country, and it was its own country.

You know, I really think that still matters.

And I think it's different.

Like, Georgia and Texas, I think, are the two states that are so uniquely their own, they would exist outside of the South in the same manner in which they are in the South.

- They're their own region, right.

- They are their own region, yeah.

- But still- - And their history, and it goes back to their history.

Like, decisions that were made 200 years ago, 50 years ago, 10 years ago have made Georgia and Texas the competitive places that they are today.

- But I think that the South, and here, I will put Texas in this category, it's hot.

This is the only region of the country, according to the census, where the population is actually up year over year.

- Yes, every demographic- - You have kids- - Every age group is moving here.

- Every demographic is moving here.

I mentioned to you earlier today, I'm fascinated by all the college kids from the Northeast- - Oh, my God.

- Who, once upon a time, would've gone to small private colleges, now wanna go to these big public universities with big SEC.

- Yes.

- Not only SEC, but primarily SEC football, right?

They all wanna go and have a good time.

You're getting this massive influx of people from all over the country, and the South is hot.

- I went to Oxford, right?

My sister went to Ole Miss.

We spent a week in Mississippi, and it was Jersey plates everywhere, you know?

- Isn't that funny?

- It was the week before rush started.

I stayed at The Graduate in Oxford and it was like, you know, you can imagine, it was, like, overrun with people getting prepared for rush.

But I think that it's, again, that's part of the reason why we wanna do this show, is that not only I think that the South is the political epicenter of the country.

I think it has been that for a long time.

The South has driven American politics for centuries.

And I think it's been, you know, I grew up, obviously, in Democratic politics.

It's been sort of an abomination by which that the, because for, like, data and analytics that shows the South is not worth your time, Democrats haven't invested here, and like, look what that has wrought.

- And you think that's actually material fact.

- I think that's really, yeah, yeah, yeah.

- If you don't campaign, if you don't find good candidates- - Yeah!

- If you don't try to turn out to vote, then you get what you deserve.

- We get what you, and also, I think that it is, most of the problems that Democrats are facing now are related to, you know, or could've been solved by paying more attention to the South.

Because if you have to compete in red areas or areas that, you know, have, you know, are very competitive like this, you're forced to make, you're forced to really sharpen your argument.

This is why I think, like, Raphael Warnock and Jon Ossoff are such good politicians and good contenders to be 2028 presidential candidates because, you know, I don't think either one of them describes themselves as progressive.

They've put themselves forward as moderates.

They are for a pretty progressive agenda, but they know how to make that argument to people that are independents, that are Republicans, and that are Democrats across the board.

And when you just rely on data and analytics to decide where you're going to spend money in a presidential campaign, or where you're going to visit in a presidential campaign or a Senate campaign, based off of where people who already agree with you are, you are, by definition, sort of weakening your own argument and your ability to appeal to everyone.

And by the way, you should wanna do that not just because it's good electorally, but also, if you're gonna lead the country, you should- - It's good to be able to talk to everybody.

- Talk to everybody!

You know, I was raised in the Bill Clinton White House, right?

- Talk to everybody.

- You have to talk to everyone.

And you know what came out of the Texas state legislatures?

You know?

The heartbeat abortion bill, a lot of voting rights changes, gerrymandering the state legislators that legislation districts that took over in the country, the congressional districts as well.

Like, nothing that's in the South stays in the South.

And if there had been competition throughout, because there are good candidates everywhere, like, we would not be in this situation where we are.

- Yeah, here in Texas, we like to say, "What starts here changes the world," as you know, right, and in fact- - It is America's Test Kitchen.

- That may be a good thing or a bad thing, depending upon your perspective.

- Right to work law started here, too, yeah.

- Right, yeah.

- But I wanted to talk about culture.

We talked about the SEC appeal, and I do think a lot of that is culture.

It's sports, it's food, it's music, it's the weather, except it's- - Except it's very hot in the South sometimes, yeah.

- It's still a little hot!

It's still a little hot here.

And that, you know, in our show, we wanna cover culture as well because politics is downstream of culture.

And if you understand and, you know, lift up, there's such amazing, you know, I'm a big music person, such amazing music that comes out of here.

Food, obviously, like hearing from artists, writers from, you know, the South has some of America's best writers come from this area.

I think it's because it's a very complex region.

And so, it demands a lot of reflection.

And so, we're trying to capture all of that to lift so it's not just about politics, but just, like, in more engagement in this region.

- And it's you co-hosting alongside Mitch Landrieu, who is the former mayor of New Orleans.

- Yeah.

- And Errin Haines, our longtime friend, extraordinary journalist who is now at The 19th, but was a co-host with you on the Showtime series "The Circus"- - "The Circus", yes.

- Before you just changed out bald guys.

- I changed out bald guys.

- Right, so, you went John Heilemann for Mitch Landrieu.

- I got the Southern John Heilemann with Mitch.

- The slightly nicer bald guy, actually.

- Slightly nicer, although Mitch knows how to take a punch and throw a punch.

- Mitch is not, he's a tough guy.

- Yeah, I mean, look, you know, he's mayor of New Orleans.

He grew up in the Landrieu family.

- What is the difference between "The Circus" and this show, beyond the fact that "The Circus" was about every place, and "Long Play"- - It's similar in that- - Is specifically about the South?

- Yeah, it is the same production company, this really talented production company called Left/Right.

And I think what, and that's who I worked with before and asked them to come do this, is that what they're very good at is we shoot in real time.

So, we'll go somewhere for a week, and then we'll put the, we'll air the show that same week.

- So, it's current.

- So, it's current and fresh and just very good at taking, You know, we may have, I mean, we're gonna have, God, I don't know, 15 hours of footage that we edit down to 20, 25 to 30 minutes of a show.

And being very disciplined in actually telling a story and addressing a question.

So, they're very tightly packed, these episodes are.

And I wanted Errin, you know, Errin is from Atlanta.

- Right.

- Well, still lives there.

Mitch, it's like, who are the people that I call to talk to- - About the South.

- About the South.

- Right, well- - Evan Smith, Errin Haynes, Mitch Landrieu, Jonathan Martin.

- Well, you know, I'm busy on this show, but you have- (audience laughing) - John Anzalone.

- You could call me, if you want.

- Yeah, there's people, right, so, there's people, well, you know, we got a fall season coming.

- Well, here I am.

(audience laughing) Keep my digits close by, as the young people say.

Look, YouTube is an interesting distribution platform.

I wanna ask you about that.

- Yeah.

- So, "The Circus" was on Showtime.

I guess there's still a Showtime, right?

Ish, ish?

- Barely?

Ish, ish, barely.

- But we're in kind of a DIY world in terms of creating something and having the ability to get it in front of people.

- Yeah.

- And that's an advantage, is it not, for you?

- It is, you know, it's like, it's a brave new world.

I mean, we were canceled by Showtime, which is owned by Paramount, (winces) (audience laughing) in 2023.

It was sort of like prior to a lot of the things that, you know, like a lot of the decisions Paramount was making, but I think it was like a, "Let's get out of, let's start getting out of politics."

- Can't get canceled by YouTube, right?

- Can't get canceled by, well, I don't know.

I mean, but what we found was like, okay, let's try to figure out this medium and see how you can develop an audience on it from, and you know, what I find is, so we're learning a lot about it.

What I find is that what I'm hoping we build as a community, right, so that it is, so, it's called "Long Play: Winning the South".

What does it mean to win the South?

It doesn't mean that Democrats win, but it means that the South is more engaged.

It means that more people are voting.

It means that there's more competition.

It means that, you know, that schools are thriving in ways that aren't happening now.

So, that is, and with YouTube, you can do, you know, so we have the flagship episodes, but then you're constantly doing, you have to do all sorts of kinds of content, like short videos.

Right now, we're also doing, we're partnered with Crooked Media, because you need partners- - Because there's also a podcast of this.

- There's a podcast version, 'cause you have to do everything.

You have to do all the things.

- Well, the good news is, there are enough political junkies in this country now.

People are read in on all the things that they love this kind of content.

- And I find that people in the South really seem to appreciate this.

Like, I get stopped in airports now, like in Birmingham, and Atlanta's a big place.

I go to Atlanta a lot.

(laughs) But that there's not been that, you know, there's great, and you see this popping up everywhere in the South.

Like, Texas Tribune was first, right, and there's all these other nonprofit news outlets.

Every state has a cool political podcast, too, that's sort of like a Crooked Media version of that.

And so, we're trying to, you know, partner with all these people, yeah.

- Tap into that, I love that.

I love that, all right.

So, in the remaining time we have, we have five or six minutes left.

Solve for me the problem of the elections of 2026 in a very short timeframe.

(audience laughing) - Yeah, what do you mean?

- What's gonna happen?

- What's gonna happen?

- You know this stuff better than anybody!

- Yeah, it's like, I think if I was a Republican, I would be super worried that this is a wave and it could crush everyone.

- You believe that is becoming a bit of conventional wisdom, that whatever the public polls are saying are bad- - Right, that they could be wrong.

- That the private polls could be worse, even.

- Yeah, yeah, or just that it is, you know, when, like, you look at things, the things I look at is, like, who has actually voted?

And in Texas, the people who've actually voted, like, Democrats outnumber Republicans, right, by pretty big numbers.

That it's like, what are the signs of that things are actually different?

In Mississippi, they had, this is even before the Clay decision, they had record turnout in their primary, even though it wasn't competitive, you know?

So, you look at things like that that show people are just really, and then just the facts of the economy, of gas prices, things that you know drive people to be upset.

- Well, it's a midterm election, and often, the party of the president, in fact, I think only three times in a hundred years has the president's party not lost seats in Congress during the midterm.

This is typically when people react as a referendum against the president, right?

- Yeah, I worked for Bill Clinton in 1994.

We got completely wiped out.

No one predicted.

We did not think we were gonna lose the House or Senate, and we lost both.

- Both.

- And it was historic.

You know, that had not happened.

I had never thought the Democrats would lose the House.

And then, you know, same thing happened to Barack Obama in 2010.

In 2014, we had another tough midterm year.

2022 for Biden was an anomaly and it was different, but I think that was because Trump wasn't on the ballot.

And then- - But the first Trump midterm in '18, he got walloped.

- He got destroyed, yeah.

And then there was abortion was, you know, and people really were about democracy.

And so, Biden was able to buck that, how historically bad that normally is.

And this time, it just feels like, You know, like, I think, here, like, Talarico could win, Gina Hinojosa could win.

- In Texas.

- In Texas.

Some of the House races that they, where the Republicans gerrymandered, they may, like, rue the day they did that, 'cause maybe they just created more competitive districts, is what they did.

I think Scott Colom in Mississippi could win.

You know, so, it's the kind of thing- - Well, the map has expanded, hasn't it?

- Yeah, yeah, and that- - We're all of a sudden talking about the Kansas Senate race being competitive when no one thought- - The Kansas Senate race being competitive- - That was being competitive.

- The Mississippi Senate race- - South Carolina, it may be that Lindsey Graham's sister doesn't necessarily walk into that seat.

- Right, so, Annie Andrews, and she's the Democratic nominee in South Carolina.

Right now, there's polling that has her, like, down a point or so to Darline Graham.

Now, but to look at the factual numbers, it's like 43-42.

Okay, that does not add up to 100.

So, who are those people that are not for either one right now in South Carolina?

They're more likely to be Republicans than not.

But it is the kind of year, you know, it could be that none of these people can win.

But it could be the kind of year where you're like, "Oh, my God."

- But we just don't know.

- "Annie Andrews ran in South Carolina."

You just don't know, but it is all very possible.

But what I really hope, you know, people, even if James Talarico and Gina Hinojosa, both who are running really great races here don't win, it is, like, to stay engaged, 'cause, like, you're seeing what's possible here.

And when I talk to voters in Texas, Evan, it's like people have been hurt by Trump's policies or Abbott's policies personally 'cause of immigration or what's happening to the school districts here.

And it really feels like that is opening people up to consider alternatives in a way I haven't seen before.

Trump is not your typical ideological conservative.

And as it feels like we're coming to the end of the Trump era, I think people really are open to going in different directions.

And that doesn't happen in '26, but it could happen in '28.

You know, and I feel the same.

It's more present in Texas.

I think partly it's like Texans are just Texans, right?

And they're independent and they don't like what's happening.

- But in the case of Texas, it's been 32 years since a Democrat won statewide.

- Democrats are smoking- - I know.

- A whole lot of hopium in this election cycle.

(audience laughing) - Yeah, but it is, but there's something, there is something real here about people being super frustrated and open to alternatives.

- Yeah.

- And that's just what you gotta, like, even if it doesn't happen in '26, that's what you got to feed on for '28.

And by the way, the Democrats could win 2028 without winning a whole bunch of seats in the South, but not going forward, they can't.

- Yeah.

- Not going forward.

- I mean, back to "Long Play", it's gonna be important for there to be a two-way conversation.

- Yes, yes, exactly.

- So, we've talked about the Senate a little bit.

You said back to the Bill Clinton time, we didn't think we were gonna lose X, and we ended up losing X. No one thought at the beginning of this year that the Senate was competitive.

Now, suddenly, we think there's a real chance.

- Yeah.

- But you assume that the House absolutely is gonna switch majorities.

- I think so, yeah, yeah.

I mean, the only thing they have going for them is they rigged it, right?

That's the only thing, is that they rigged- - "They" is the Republicans- - Republicans rigged- - "Rigged," you mean redistricting.

- Redistricting, that they redistricted such to give themselves as much advantage as they possibly can.

- And even with that.

- And they will hold on to seats that they otherwise would've lost because they did that.

But I think even with that, that they don't have a hope- - But y'all lost both in '94, you said, right?

- We did, yeah.

- You lost House and Senate.

So, you gotta- - There was only one person in the Clinton White House who predicted that, - And that was who?

- Doug Sosnik.

- And that was Doug Sosnik.

- Very smart guy.

- So, you had the inverse of what you would have in this case, which is Republican president, Democratic control of both houses for the last two years.

- Yeah.

- What does that look like?

- I don't know that it looks like getting a lot done.

- Done, I mean, it seems like, basically, "We'll see you in two years."

- Right, I mean, I think that's what it means.

And it means that the Democrats in Congress will be able to stop the Trump, I mean, will be able to stop proposals from going forward.

I think that there'll be a lot of focus on accountability, but that's very difficult with a president that doesn't listen to court orders.

- And also, he does executive orders all day long.

And he'll probably say, "Well, I didn't need Congress in the first two years, I don't need Congress in the next two years."

- Yeah, I think I imagine he will do that, and then it'll be a lot of, You know, congressional oversight and hearings and court cases.

But I think this is, you know, this next era that come, the 2028 race, is gonna matter so much in deciding how we come out of this era.

You know, if we come out of this with, at the grassroots level, people engaging more and believing, like, "Okay, this is my country," that just, like, reporters of the White House are like, "Oh, this is the moment I really gotta stand up."

I've always thought after Hillary lost in 2016, I was like, the rebirth is gonna come from the grassroots or it's not gonna come at all, right?

This is not a top-down thing.

And I think that the '28 election, the Democratic primary is gonna be brutal and brilliant.

You know, it is gonna be- - We may be the only two people not running for president in the next cycle.

- This is true, who says I'm not running for president?

- Of either party, oh, wait a minute!

You wanna make news, all right.

Jen, we are wrapping up, here.

Thank you very much for coming in.

Appreciate you being here, and especially, I wanna wish you continued success with "Long Play", which I really do enjoy.

- Thank you.

- And I'm very happy to know that it's continuing.

- Yes, thank you.

- Which I think is great.

Jennifer Palmieri, give her a big hand.

(audience clapping) - Thank you, guys!

- Thanks very much.

(upbeat music) Visit our website at AustinPBS.org/overheard to find invitations to interviews, Q&As with our audience and guests, and an archive of past episodes.

- I think that the country is open to very big ideas that are considered to be progressive, but because our problems are so big, but they need to be presented in a way that brings people along and doesn't divide people over class or even ideology.

- [Announcer] Funding for "Overheard with Evan Smith" comes from Hillco Partners, a Texas government affairs consultancy.

Claire and Carl Stewart.

Christine and Philip Dial.

Eller Group, specializing in crisis management, litigation, and public affairs communication, ellergroup.com.

Diane Land and Steve Adler.

And Karey and Chris Oddo.

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