Welcome to Knight Talks, the Uni of Florida College of Journalism and Communications produced by students for you.

I'm Zaki Thalji, a first yea studying media production, manag and technology.

And our guest today is Jess Jian a producer with National Publi Radio in New York for over ten y she currently serves as senior editor for NPR's Planet Money Pr Hi, Jess.

Thanks for coming on t Thank you so much for having me.

So you've been working in broadc for over a decade now.

Did you always aspire to work i and share stories with audiences That is a funny story.

No, I had not planned to work in actually.

In college I had studied economics just because it was easy.

But then I had also planne on being an environmental lawyer and so I'd taken environmental s classes.

I had prepped for the LSATs.

I did all of that.

But after graduating I was like, okay, before you spe three years in school, let's ju it's like being an environmental And so I worked at this environm law center for a little bit, and the work was very important.

I, I like enjoyed doing that part of the work.

The every day of the work was not enjoyable.

It was kind of, it was a bit terrible.

And so then I really thought ab what did you enjoy in college?

Like what what makes sense to do as a job?

Like what would you enjoy doing day t And I thought about this podcast that I made with a friend.

And so then I was like okay, we're going to try doing t And so I got an internship and that took out, took off from the I do, like I mentioned, I majored in economics and I think that did help me a lot in that perio I graduated during the financial And this was a tim when people really want to under the economy and there weren' a lot of people who could explai And I both had podcasting backg and I had this economics degree.

And I think that made me a particularly good candidat for a lot of jobs back then, yea So in 2010 you began working as an intern a WNYC Radio a public radio station out of Ne What inspired you to transition to broadcast, and how did you kind of get your foot in the door?

Yeah, so like I mentioned I had a bit of podcasting backgr and so that was quite helpful.

But really I worked on a sho that I really liked called Studi It doesn't exist anymore but I was actually a fan of the and I think that really is help because you can talk about the s what you want to add to it, wha to change, but also what you lik And I think that was probably pretty helpful in how, like it was a very competitive i application process.

And so I think that really helpe in that like giant pool of students for me, for sure.

So you then made the switc to NPR taking a production assis You had that rol for about three and a half years What does a production assistant day to day look like and what types of shows and proj did you create?

Well I think at the time when I start at Planet Money we were doing three shows a week And so it's going to be really t for me to remember exactl what shows that I worked on back But it was sort of anything.

I would help with interview prep I would help with doing research.

I remember sometimes people wou I wonder if we could do an episo on, on, the resource curse, righ Which is this idea that oil rich actually their economy can sometimes suf because of that influx of money is only going t like a certain part of the popul And so I remember like trying to find different examples, different countries that like did something differen where they might have been able to escape the resource curse.

So it was sort of like anythin and everything like under the su sort of part of the job, which was really exciting for especially someone young in that because it just meant like I could do, touch a lot of thin and learn from a lot of people.

And at the time, like this sho had so many people to learn from And so it was yeah, it was, it was a really great experience for a very new producer.

So after three and a half years as an assistant, you became a producer for NPR's Planet Money.

How is this role different from you had been previously doing, a there a learning curve or any c that came along with the new rol Honestly, it's a lot of the same It was a higher salary and a bet but it was essentially doing the same work.

I think the one difference is I to lead more projects, right which is definitely more ambitio and play a role in either planni scheduling them, figuring out deadlines and all sorts of things.

So it's sort of like much of th but more in terms of actual work Yeah, that's great.

So one of the project you actually led, The T-Shirt Pr you ended up winning an Emmy, which is great.

Can you explain the concep and how that story kind of came Yeah, I should correct you.

I didn't lead it, but I was part that worked on it for sure.

And so in terms of like actuall the work on it was such a team e Like, for example, we normally d not work with visual people and that whole project really required multi media experiences, right?

And so we worked a lot with vide and so we split up into differen that took on different part of the t-shirt manufacturing pro And so I was part of the earlie and it was me and a host, Robert who covere we covered the going to the cott going to Indonesia where the cotton is turned into and that yarn is then turned in the fabric that makes the t-shir And it was really important to us, a couple were really important to us.

First of all that it was a global journey, ri Because I think most of the clo we wear is part of the global ec And really seein and tracing what that supply cha looks like was a ke part of for us the reporting of And so and then like I said, really working with other teams, like we worked with a videograph named David Gilkey and he went to Indonesia with us And that stor would have been very different without him, without those visua what it looks like to make the yarn that makes your Winning an Emmy.

That's great.

That's a big deal.

How did you guys get the idea to work on it?

Yeah.

There's this economist named Pietro Rivoli, who wrote an entire book about the making of a t-shirt and that kind of global econom that it takes to make a t-shirt.

It's this beautiful book.

People should read it.

Its, it was really the inspiratio for the whole t-shirt project.

And so Adam Davidson and Alex Bl had talked about making like following some of that.

And I think it really became muc than we even thought it could, because in order to do the work, we had the idea of selling the t-shirt that we were going to make.

And so we started a Kickstarter This is, I think, fairly new, like a new in journalism that you could eve And it garnered a lot of attenti We, a lot of fans bought t-shirt And so it, it, I think it's fair to say we got more money than we thought we wo And so that really allowed us to blow out the project and make it as ambitious as we could make it.

So do you remember the exact mom when you received word that you won the Emmy?

Was it exciting, how did the tea I think it was exciting.

It was very strange because lik I think it was one of the early in news and information, and so even know that was a thing.

And it was just all very odd.

I'm not really in it for awards and so I don't really seek them And so, yeah, it was just a little bizarre.

But yes, it was.

It was very, it was definitely a Yeah.

So kind of transitioning, one of the programs that NPR is is their Rough Translation podca Tell us about that series and t of stories you're able to produc Yeah, so Rough Translation was N international podcast.

I was the founding producer of i I worked closely with Gregory Wa and initially Gregory Warner who was the host of the series.

And then in addition to that we worked with an editor, Marian at the start of it.

And it was a very different kind of storytelling than I had done because Planet Money is very lik you have a story, you have a nar There is some economic learning that you're doing.

The stories for rough translation were very personal.

And so that was an experience for me, trying to figure ou how do I do that kind of storyte Sometimes theyre emotional.

I had to figure out how I fel about crying in front of a sourc and whether that felt journalistically appropriate.

So it was sort of a kind of a a real learning journey for me working on that show.

So what does it mea to be involved in the creation of such emotional and impactful Yeah, I think so, one fron we had to figure out, what did t even sound like?

What did we want it to sound lik What was the kind of style aesth we were going for?

How we even do the reporting?

So there was sort of that level And then in terms of like the actual finding stories, getting people to talk with yo and share such personal things, I think it was a real hono that people were willing to go there and tell and be so vulnera with me, with us, and trying to find a way to share those stories in a respectful way.

But still having a particular take or a particular way of viewing their stories.

Right.

And so I think it was, I think that's what I mean by a real learning curve, because that was such a, it was such a like experience to try and work throug as we were actually making the t Is there a story that had you k considering the ethical question that come along with showing a s where it's very emotional?

Yeah.

I think one stor that particularly comes to mind I worked on an episode as part Homefront series for Rough Trans That was about a veteran who was a triple amput He was involved in an IED bombing in in Iraq, and it led him to lose three of his four limbs.

And so he had such a vulnerable to tell.

And we went to visit him to really get to the root of his and in the process of visiting h I was talking with his wife for an interview and she shared some very surprising details of the domestic violence that she had faced with her husb And that was a moment where the a very different turn from the that we were planning on telling And so I think it was both, there were two challenges.

One was in the moment, how do I elicit more information and ask questions in a respectful but sometimes probing way?

Right.

So there is that front.

And in order to do that, I just do it with empathy.

It is something that I' maybe more experienced with, but just like really caring about someone's story.

It shows, right?

And people then want to share mo I also tell peopl that if I'm ever asking somethin too personal they always have a chance to say And I think that's really impor especially with people who aren' government official or aren't sort of media savvy, r Like, they don't know they have in a conversation, in an intervi So that was one front.

And then on the other front the other challenge was how do I story that isn't gratuitous, that isn't, that has meaning, ri And sort of understands her stor and her experienc when she was still puzzling thro Like she didn't understand what what it all meant which I think is fair because li sometimes you just don't unders like your story while you're liv And so it wa it was a really challenging stor But I'm really happy with how we told it in the Yeah.

Yeah, it's interesting.

It's a great perspective to have So you currently work as the se supervising editor of Planet Mon What exactly does a senior super editor do and how do you make an impac on the final product that we hea Yeah.

So I can sort of break that apar Supervising just means tha I have direct reports and I'm a So that simple.

And then as an editor I work more with hosts and produ how to tell the stories or sort being like the mentor to my form Right.

And so in that way, it' a lot about talking about story and honing in on them and thinki what's the best way to tell that Like, is there a scene that that really illustrates it?

Is there some way that makes som feel more palpable to a listener and almost more visual to a list And so that's often what we're about, is like how to tell the s And then also who to talk with, Like, who are the voices going to be for this story?

So that's a lot of the conversa that I have with hosts and repor and producers of like what is t that this story is going to unfo So how collaborative is the production process?

What are the biggest challenges to creating a great story?

Yeah, it is a very collaborative at least the way we do it at Planet Money, for sure.

Which just means like we are in a lot of conversation about how to tell this story.

We're often working together li almost like people have differen and different parts of the stori So I think sometimes in the initial stages it's very much me as an editor.

There actually are multiple edi so I'm not the only editor on th but we are talking with the host and reporters, or if the producers are reporti we're talking with them initiall and then the reporters and produ go off and like book their guest and maybe even do the interviews And the we plan around what they've gott So sometimes we envision one thi initially of like this is how the story is going t And then in the process of repor or in the process of doing the interview, the story c or the plan should chnage.

And so then we talk after and th is this the story we had envisio or is it somewhat different?

And then from there usually the reporter or producer creates a draf and then about a week and a half before the show will air we start the actual production week on the episode where we go multiple edits and try and figur okay, how can we sharpen the material that we have to te the best story that we can tell.

Although Planet Money stories relate to economics, they still cover a wide range of How do you tailor your conten to resonate with your audiences, and how do you keep each stor feeling unique while maintaining a consistency across the series?

so we're a pretty big team.

I think we're abou I think it's like now 18 people And so we have these really enga and engaged pitch meetings where we talk abo what is relevant, right?

Like what are people interested what are we interested in, what we get a sens like our friends might be intere And that really drive some of our storytelling is thin what is the kind of news ideas that people, that there might be a Planet Mon on, right?

That we can say somethin a bit interesting, a bit surpris just something else that we haven't heard before.

And so that drive a lot of what we choose to make.

So yeah.

Yeah, that's interestin So did Planet Money start a reco What's the story there?

So we did start a record label, we only put out one song.

To be clear I don't think we'd ever do it ag because I think our legal team w just like, would not be very happy wi They always think we are like the things we asked to do are just some of the most ridicu things.

We asked to bu I think $10,000 worth of oil at They just sometimes just have t with the things that we are tryi And so with the record label, what basically had happened was someone sent us a song that hadn't been published that hadn't really seen the ligh And so they were they thought l might be an opportunity for us.

And we listened to the son and it's called Inflation Song and it's all about inflatio and it's actually a song from th So yeah, exactly.

So a 50 year old song had a lot of seemed lik it would have a lot of resonance So we did this project about two and inflatio was much more extreme than it is And so it was basically a chance maybe to publish this song.

And so we had to figure out how to make a record deal and basically bring the band mem together to figure out how they were going to split the royalties for this.

It was just thing we had never thought we could do We had to figure out how to do i So yes, I would say we're a reco with an asterisk, just meanin that we will never put out anoth Like thi is the only thing we will ever d Yeah.

You had to try it once.

Ye So your visit to the University of Florid relates to AI and virtual realit How are these technologie transforming business right now and what impact might they have in the near future?

That is I think the million dollar quest or maybe it's the billion dolla if we have to include inflation.

I think basically we don't know which I kno is sort of a terrifying answer, especially for a lot of student who are about to go out into the market or figuring ou what they want to do with their So I think it's I think when I based on the economic research t I read, tha the podcast that we that we've m I think there's essentiall like two visions for what lays a And this is a pivotal momen where we're going to where we ca define maybe which path we go do So one pat is that we could potentially lik creat this technological change that w like replace jobs that it would be kind of a terri for the economy that will be li we had a chance to prevent this and we didn't take it.

So I think that's one potential And I think we can look to hist for moments that were like this, Like, I think in some ways the Industrial Revolutio really changed the work of artis It took awa the jobs of like of people who w looms or people who worked who made textiles in like a home and made it a factory job.

Right.

And so I think that changed the of many people in one direction, but then also ove time, factory work became more s And so that's one direction it could go in.

And then another direction i where it's more like the technol could be a tool that really help work and eases work.

Like I think an example could be you probably have never called the travel age before, right?

Yeah.

Like that because we have the Internet to You have computers that sort of you buy a flight without ever talking to a person That has made in some ways, your life a lot better.

It did take away travel agent j but maybe those people were able to find work in a similar fiel or a slightly different field.

Maybe it's more customer service But it's always in which we can think about like, is technology, is technological advancement going to be a compliment to wor or is it going to replace work?

And so I do think in some ways, government intervention, what institutions d what like higher education does with this new technology, is really going to define which path we go on, or maybe i going to be somewhere in the mid So we'll see.

So you're on campus for about a one of the longer trips that you've taken to university.

Do you plan on visiting more col and talking to students?

Yeah, I think it's an interesting time, especially in journalism, to talk with students.

I've done it sometimes.

And I think right no the particular moment has to do journalism and where journalism and especially audio journalism.

I'd be remiss to not talk about that departments, the parts of big organizations that have really shut down the longform audio journalism groups within a company.

So it can feel like a scary time to want to become a journalist.

And I, I want to talk with students in par because when I was graduating, like I mentioned before, I wa I graduated into the housing cri Right?

That was also a particularly sca and weird time to be looking for a job.

And I think my story I know is p right?

It's not the path that just anyone can take.

But I also think it's a reminder you can try different things.

You can you don't have to know everythin when you graduate from college.

You won't know everythin when you graduate from college.

And so really allowing different opportunities, differe to present itself to yo and to take them is important.

So, yeah I think I like talking to studen because I want to set their min a little bit that they don't hav exactl what their life plan is going to from as soon as they graduate.

So to kind of wrap things up, wi and specifically podcasting so q evolving, what advice would you give people looking t a career in radio or podcasting Yeah, like I said I think it's the first thing is to different things that it migh what happened in the end might not be the thin that you planned out or set out I think the second thing is advice that I often give younger and it's a weird one, which is to really be choosy and to work on things that you passion and enjoy doing because Like I know early on when I worked on Studio 360, which is the arts and culture s it was really important for me to like work late, to really hus and like make the episodes that I, I thought I could that I wanted to make that I though wasn't really happening on the s And I don't think I would have b to do that if I just I didn't like the show or lik I just didn't think it was worth And so I I often tell younger people to b and to work on thing that they actually want to make because it really makes a diffe Thanks for coming on the show, J We really had a great time.

Thank you so much for having me.

And thanks to all our viewers out there tonight.

We hope you guys enjoyed.

Until next time.

Goodnight.