♪ ♪ Kay Doran> Good evening.

On July the 2nd, the United States Supreme Court made public its decision that although states do have powers to regulate economic activities, they do not have the right to prohibit peaceful activity aimed at bringing about political, social, and economic change.

This was heralded as a victory by the NAACP and the Reverend Jesse Jackson's Chicago based organization, P.U.S.H.

for a peaceful economic boycott to effect change were given a green light by this decision.

Operation P.U.S.H.

Our People United to Save Humanity, is holding its 11th annual national convention in Charleston this week and on "Open Line" this evening, appearing through the courtesy of the Medical University of South Carolina at their studios in Charleston is the Reverend Jesse Jackson and ETV's Beryl Dakers.

Welcome to "Open Line", Reverend Jackson.

Rev.

Jesse Jackson> Thank you.

Good to be here again.

And now to you, Beryl in Charleston.

Beryl> Thank you, Kay.

The convention is really just getting underway here in Charleston.

And we whisked the Reverend away from his very busy schedule so that we could talk to him this afternoon.

I'm a little curious, given that the P.U.S.H.

convention attracts delegates from around the country, why choose to hold a national convention of this magnitude here in South Carolina?

Rev.

Jackson> Well, South Carolina was not successful in seceding from the Union.

This is very much a part of the nation.

And, and if not here, where?

Beryl> I asked for that one, okay.

Rev.

Jackson> not now, why?

<Okay.> On a real sense, very critical economic and political decisions that will shape the rest of this, decade will be determined right here in South Carolina as we fight to have the Voting Rights Act enforced, which is beyond extension.

South Carolina has been one of the main violators of the 65' Voting Rights Act.

The registrars, by and large, have been unmonitored.

They are not aggressively going out of their way to find unregistered voters and register them.

They've not really gone to churches and mass gatherings.

The result is that there are 302,000 Blacks registered, 292,000, or 48% unregistered, in addition to unmonitored registrars, the gerrymandering annexation at-large schemes, Now, I might add that the Supreme Court has struck a real death blow on the at large scheme as well, have been effectively employed in South Carolina.

The result is 17 years after the Voting Rights Act, even though one third of all eligible voters are Black, there's not one Black in the state Senate.

That is counterproductive.

That's not in the spirit of democracy.

Out of six congressmen, not one is Black.

There's no Black federal representative from South Carolina.

17 years later, and no Black in municipal government in Columbia, the state capital.

And so we intend A., to register 100,000 Black voters, within the next year here in South Carolina, We intend with William Reynolds of the Justice Department coming here on Friday to bring to him the, depositions and testimonies as to how the Voting Rights Act has not been enforced here.

We intend to convene registrars here from around the state to talk with with the Justice Department.

And indeed, we intend to elect Ken Mosley as the first congressman from this, from this state this century.

And so South Carolina represents a good place to be the really seek effective political change.

Beryl> Why so much concentration on the issue of registering Blacks to vote at this particular juncture, particularly since 1965?

We have found that typically in many areas that although Blacks are registered, they do not necessarily turn out and exercise the voting power.

Rev.

Jackson> Well, but... but we vote and we vote in in far greater numbers than are projected.

It is not our fault that up to 1965 poll tax and literacy tests were used to deny us the right to vote.

It's not our fault that 17 years later that there are 6 or 7 Black elected officials now in the state, but there are 15,000 White elected officials.

It's not our fault that the Justice Department has not enforced section two and section five, and thus they have allowed on the one hand and the registrars on the other, to make voting difficult for us.

In addition to leaving us politically ignorant so that people do not have live options, They do not have great motivation to vote.

But I suggest you, with the At-Large system basically being disallowed in the courts now, and with our drive for mass voter education, one will see increase to registration.

Beryl> We seem to see Operation P.U.S.H.

resorting to typical tactics that have been identified with the Civil Rights Movement over the past two years.

Is this a logical progression?

Rev.

Jackson> Well, indeed it is.

I think that we have to use that which is legal and that which is effective by using the courts.

The courts have said that the, that the at-large scheme to deny Blacks representation is essentially illegal.

And so that is within the law.

We intend to employ the law.

We intend to test that case in Columbia and around the state.

The courts have said that the use of collective buying, economic boycotts may be used as a means to bring about a balance of trade or economic reciprocity, and so we use the courts.

We also attempt to use the negotiating tables.

We also have it necessary to use the streets, all of which are legal and constitutional.

I think that what the record needs to show that we would rather be trading partners than civil warriors.

It is shown it is so shortsighted, the lock out Black money, the lock out Black minds because it has a way of diminishing the economy rather than expanding it.

And the record needs to show that when Jackie Robinson was able to play baseball, it did not hurt baseball.

It did not hurt White people.

It allowed baseball to expand.

When Blacks got the right to vote, it made possible Lyndon Johnson, really being president, and having it authenticated, when, Blacks had the right to vote, it meant that you could have a Black, a Black/White combination, as it were.

Andy Young and others and a Jimmy Carter become president.

So if indeed we are found athletically and politically that the Black vote and Black talent has helped make America strong, What about Black dollars?

After all, Black Americans represent the ninth largest gross national product in the world.

Beryl> If they were all united and all of those dollars were in one kitty?

Rev.

Jackson> It would be $154 billion dollars And we do spend them, and we Black Americans buy more American product, and Russia and China and Japan combined.

So rather than seeing the Black American market as a nemesis or seeing it as negatively, it should be seen creatively as a positive asset for the expansion and development of the nation.

Beryl> When you talk about trade partners in particular, usually when we talk about Blacks in corporate boardrooms or we talk about economic development, the resulting answer is Blacks do not have the capital or do not have the access to make those kinds of decisions.

<It really is not true though> In order to have partners, each has to give something to a relationship.

Rev.

Jackson> Look at the auto industry.

Last year, Black Americans bought $14 billion worth of autos.

So apparently we had money.

We had capital.

We had something to give.

Not to mention we are a substantial labor base, in that industry.

Black Americans spent $30 million a month on union dues.

And yet that's our trade with the auto industry.

And yet Chrysler buys $3 billion in products all the way from hubcaps to, to gloves and uniforms and office equipment.

$3 billion, about $300 million dollars should go to Blacks in trade.

Less than 20 million comes to Blacks in trade.

They are engaging in a strain of trade.

Ford, $15 billion a year in procurement, about a billion and five should go to Blacks, less than, 90 million.

General Motors, 30 billion in trade, less than 300 million Blacks.

It should be about 3 billion.

Just the three auto companies alone.

Their restraining trade practices has limited Blacks ability to grow, limited their ability to expand.

So it is economic nonsense, and no one should suggest that we don't have money to spend.

And then we're by far more than the marginal profit of most every age and item produced and sold in this nation.

We have money.

We have minds.

Beryl> What incentive do you use to get the GM's and the Fords and the Chryslers to recognize this fact?

Rev.

Jackson> One is simply to educate them as to the economic unfeasibility of restraint of trade, or of terrorists based...upon race.

Why couldn't, Black Americans and White Americans be co-partners to expand the auto industry in this country and around the world, as opposed to Blacks being so locked out of the auto industry?

We stand on the sideline and watched the American auto industry and the Japanese, auto industry fight.

We should logically be allies of the American auto industry in that struggle.

We should be fighting as America's economic core partners in times of economic prosperity.

Yes, we are America's military partners during time of war.

And just as White America could not defeat the Japanese on the battlefield by themselves during the time of war.

They cannot be the Japanese by themselves.

On the technological battlefield, on the economic battlefield.

Black Americans are too vast in this country, in their numbers and in their possibility to be left on the sidelines.

So it's economically unfeasible to lock us out.

And there are tremendous assets in relating to Black America in respectful and positive ways.

Kay> Reverend Jackson, we're talking about Black economic power.

And I'm wondering, the president, the present administration, the Reagan administration is challenging at this point.

The private sector to come into areas where the federal government is going to cut back or has cut back.

What are you doing?

What is P.U.S.H.

doing, specifically to challenge or to encourage the private sector, in fact, to help out in the areas, the very areas that you're talking about?

Rev.

Jackson> The president has a, has an idea, but it does not have a program with a budget and a time table.

Enterprise zones for the occupied zone are unworkable because effect, effectively what you have there is a formula of aid without trade.

That is the problem of the Great Society, aid without trade.

Any development formula must have trade as central.

Why was Europe able to develop after the Second World War, formula aid plus trade plus time?

Why was Israel able to develop aid plus trade plus time?

Now Black America needs that same kind of formula and challenge what we are doing to the corporate sector, saying to them, we want to trade with you.

And if we trade with you, you, you, we expect you to trade with us.

If you don't trade but us, we will not trade with you.

And because our buying power is so vast, and because the margin of profit is so critical and competition is so keen, they have loned to us a listening ear.

The General Motors, Ford and Chrysler will be a part of a workshop here tomorrow.

Blacks and the auto industry.

Out of this convention, we intend to have a national summit conference on Black leadership and the auto industry.

We want reciprocal trade or a balance of trade between Blacks and the auto industry, in order that we might develop and auto industry might expand and become more competitive in the world market.

Kay> And as Beryl was saying earlier, though, does this not require that all Blacks throughout the country form a cohesive unit?

Is that something that you see is a reality right now.

Rev.

Jackson> It's very much a reality.

Let us not forget that Black Americans are divided by states and some often in times divided by class, but we are bound by caste.

No matter what our variation and difference may be, we all receive the freedoms that have been before the Supreme Court decision, at the same time, all of us, we, all of us receive the right to use a bathroom in downtown America.

In 1964, on the same day, we all received the right to vote on the same day.

And so the Black American caste system gives us certainty of our ability to unify around survival issues is fairly great and it's distinct and obviously from the Coke and...confrontation, we have proven that it is possible.

Beryl> Jesse, let's explore that last point a moment when you talk about our ability to unify.

If we look at the perseverance or the last thing that, sort of better word of the various civil and human rights organization.

So we find that most of your contemporaries over the last 20 years in the fight for civil or human rights, are no longer on the scene.

Rev.

Jackson> Well, that is a... human progression.

People are born and people die, but the institutions remain.

I mean, preachers come and go, but churches remain.

And so the N double A has now passed its 75th year.

Urban League has had that, that same three quarters of a century period OIC is now past its 20th year.

P.U.S.H.

has survived its first decade and so leaders change and leaders ought to change.

We need fresh blood.

We need new blood.

I am right now in the process of seeking new, vibrant leadership for Operation P.U.S.H.. I do not think that I should remain in the job as president or as a lifetime job.

I think we must make room for new leadership, and I would hope that.

<That is a long range view.> Well, it is not too long range.

I actually think that there must be a real affirmative search for new, young, vibrant leadership that can continue to appeal to the energetic masses and to our young people.

I want to be able to, to write more, to be able to participate in policy more, to be able to, spend more, focus on, on my preaching, my spiritual development, as well as involved in economic negotiations.

And I would certainly hope that just as P.U.S.H., International Trade Bureau now has a distinguished president that's an organization in the P.U.S.H.

family and P.U.S.H.

Excel has a distinguished president, Operation P.U.S.H.

likewise, would grow to the point in the very near future that we can have a new president, a better organization.

And I would like to assume a very serious position, perhaps as chairman of the board and continue to make input, but to make room for new, young, aggressive leadership.

Kay> Reverend Jackson, it's been said that, you are the heir to Martin Luther King Jr's mantle of being this nation's foremost civil rights leader.

But it sounds like what you're saying is perhaps the nation needs more than one Jesse Jackson.

It needs more than one visible leader.

Rev.

Jackson> Well, and it has today, and it has always had, for example, Dr.

King was preeminent in part based upon gifts God gave to him and the circumstances out of which he operated.

But then, Whitney Young played a very critical role during that period, Roy Wilkins at the helm of the NAACP, Jim Farmer with CORE, John Lewis, with SNCC and later Stokely and,... Andy Young.

These men played very vital roles.

And now, as we look at the scene 17 years after the Voting Rights Act, we've gone from no Black mayors to 210.

And so in 210 communities, there is very present daily leadership.

We've gone from three Black congressmen to 17.

Those are 17 congressional districts.

We now have more federal judges on the bench right now than we've had in the entire period of time since we arrived in Charleston on slave ships three centuries ago.

And so at the judicial level, at the federal level, at the mayoral level, or at the educational level, there's a new broad base of leadership that's more educated and sharper and better prepared than ever before.

And that is the way it ought to be.

Beryl> Rev.

Jackson, we have concentrated primarily on domestic issues, particularly of the civil rights and economic development... Yet Operation P.U.S.H.

has expanded you, you mentioned the international trade bureaus.

You have a director of international affairs and a functioning program there.

Why the expansion into the international arena?

Rev.

Jackson> Well, you know, all of us, are international every day.

When you drink a cup of coffee, if the coffee comes from Brazil, that's an international act.

If you drive a Honda or Toyota, that's an international act.

If you take, a picture with a Nikon or Nikkei, if you listen to Sony, those are international transactions that we engage in every day.

When we pay our taxes, and it's used in foreign aid, it's international.

And so we are far more international than any of us appreciate.

Just go to K-Mart.

Almost everything in there is made in Japan, made in Taiwan.

We are participating in international exchange.

We must do so however, by helping to make things happen, not just receiving things on other people's terms.

Every time another billion dollars is added to the military and machines replace people.

We lose 13,000 jobs in the American economy, about 1300 jobs.

There is a relationship there between the Pentagon and poverty.

They have not really closed down the theater jobs.

They've sent the shifted theater from the Labor Department to the Military Department.

The young man who used to be trained, to develop basic skills in local communities are now going to the military and joining the armed services so they can make a living and travel around the world at government expense.

So there is a profound relationship.

Beyond that, we as a nation must have moral authority.

To do so, we must project our humanity around the world.

We cannot be number one trading partner with South Africa in good conscience, while it engages in a slave system.

We cannot be silent in the face of a policy of genocide in the Middle East with American made weapons.

We must be more aggressive there.

We must express our love.

But you Israelis, by standing for Israeli security within internationally recognized boundaries and at the same time fighting for Palestinian justice or the affirmation of their humanity.

<Let me interrupt...> which means going from a no talk policy, to a let's talk policy.

We must be involved in those struggles.

Beryl> Let me interrupt you there, because perhaps your, your meeting in the Middle East last year generated more press attention in this particular area of P.U.S.H.

's expansion into the international arena.

And much of the feedback in this country was negative.

Were you prepared for that kind of response to...?

Rev.

Jackson> Dr.

King made a great speech upon making his Vietnam War position.

He said...we should pull out of Vietnam.

It's called a betrayal of silence.

If you don't tell the truth when you see it, you betray your conscience and you betray the nation.

How can a man of conscience stand silent by, while 17,000 people are wiped out of a policy of genocide in one week with US made weapons?

How can we stand idly by while 600,000 people are made homeless?

Or why do we stand idly by while Israelis are terrorized, daily with, with, with strikes into their territory, killing their children.

So in the in the middle of this war where Israelis are killing Palestinians and Palestinians are killing Israelis, and we have an interest in both sides, we have to act.

We can't go for a no talk policy.

We must move to a let's act policy and a mutual recognition policy.

We must stand for something of substance in the world community.

Beryl> Does this mean that we can expect to see Operation P.U.S.H.

operating more in the foreign affairs arena, and if so, what will be and has been the reaction of our government?

Rev.

Jackson> Well, we will continue to challenge our government to cut back on the nuclear race because it it threatens the human race, We'll either go on to freeze nuclear weapons and we are going to burn human beings.

And those are very real options.

And we're going to take those moral positions.

We're going to challenge this nation not to have a $2 trillion military budget, preparing to be the number one over killer in the world while babies starve and people are malnourished and jobless and and the lives are full of anxiety.

Let us not forget, foreign affairs are domestic affairs.

The Pentagon and the State Department are located in Washington, just as the Department of Education and Labor are located in Washington.

So that really, is our business.

That is our domain.

If not us, who?

If not now, when?

If not here, where?

We must deal with those issues.

Beryl> Is there a receptivity to that stance?

As long as you are speaking on the platform of civil rights, that seems to be fine.

Is there the attention generated to a response by Jesse Jackson, Rev.

Jackson> I have this mandate...<we should do this...> Rev.

Jackson>...go into all the world and preach my gospel and that becomes the responsibility of all of the moral leader of of the human rights activists.

I'm going to preach the gospel, from the mountaintop.

And when they preach the gospel from the valley, wherever I can tell the story from.

I think whether you're in Moscow or Washington or in Jerusalem, you need to hear the words study war no more, beat your swords into plow shares and your spears into pruning hooks.

That indeed is the mandate of the Christian preacher.

And this week, as we engage in these various workshops with ministers, and business leaders and, and politicians and ambassadors from around the world here this week, we will be discussing these issues of rural importance.

I think perhaps the reason why, William Buckley was here today to record these two shows.

William Buckley takes his royal citizenship seriously, and he appreciates the fact that we're involved in the world community on some issues we agree, some we disagree.

But both of us really are co-partners in trying to make this nation a better nation and trying to make it more whole.

Beryl> What are your hopes for South Carolina in particular, since you are directing so many energies in this community in the immediate future?

Rev.

Jackson> I think one would be to apply the at-large victory that we won in the Supreme Court two weeks ago and strike down the at large provisions in this state that deny Blacks a chance to get elected.

That to have the Voting Rights Act enforced so that your mandering and annexation will not be employed to keep us out of elected office and to begin to monitor registrars so that people can get on the books.

I would hope that in the next two years, there will be two Black congressmen from South Carolina.

We will reduce by at least 100,000 the number of unregistered Black voters in this state.

And the Blacks and Whites together in this state will see the good sense in sharing power, and that during this critical economic crunch, that Black and White citizens will have the good judgment to turn to each other and not on each other.

And no matter, how privileged we are to never lose that sense that tells us that the blessed of us have a moral obligation to help save the rest of us.

Beryl> And on the economic front?

Rev.

Jackson> On the economic front, just as 600,000, eligible voters ought to register in this state, 600,000 eligible voters, also 600,000 adult consumers.

We intend to target ten companies in the state this week that do more than their margin of profit with Black consumers.

We intend to renegotiate the economic contract as we shift from aid to trade, we send the world reciprocity.

We want our share of economic development, our share, our political development.

We're not looking to gifts and aid.

We're not looking for social generosity.

We're looking for trade and economic reciprocity.

Beryl> Does that mean that you are targeting South Carolina for a selective buying campaign?

Or a boycott campaign?

Rev.

Jackson> I think we are selecting South Carolina to lead the way.

I mean, why can't South Carolina be the state where political reciprocity isn't evidenced?

Why can't this be the state where economic reciprocity isn't evidenced?

Why can't this be the state for the White, Black relations are as they ought to be?

So the challenge here is not to revert to civil warriors, and hostility is to move up to becoming training partners and, and companions in development.

Beryl> Reverend Jackson back... to the topic again of the low number of Black officials here in South Carolina in various elected officers you mentioned earlier in the show, this may be due in part to the policies of registrars that may be due in part to gerrymandering.

Would you give credence to the fact there may be apathy among the Black community in South Carolina, and that indeed may be one of the causes for the low number of Black officials?

Rev.

Jackson> Well, that is obviously a factor, but it is less of a factor than you would think, by and large, It is to say that possibility is the great motivator for people.

And if people think that their vote does not count, they tend not to use it.

If the people think their living is in vain, they tend to be more prone to suicide.

And so when it becomes clear that our vote will count in Columbia, for example, more will register and more will vote.

It is a shame that Columbia, South Carolina, with two Black colleges and University of South Carolina, in a real sense, the capital of this state has 36,000 unregistered Black voters.

There are more unregistered Black voters in Richland County in Columbia, South Carolina, than any other place in the state that represents a long held set of...policies and schemes and practices that has broken the spirits of Black people.

We must revive their spirits by letting them know that political growth is possible and it's real.

Beryl> Reverend Jackson, our time is growing short.

We only have about a minute remaining.

But on that same issue, I must ask you on a national front, we have heard that same thing.

Indeed, in the last presidential election, the rallying cry was Blacks turn out to vote.

Your vote does make a difference.

And yet we have a president who has publicly stated that he won without the Black vote.

And really, that is not necessary.

Rev.

Jackson> You see, when you run for office in a partisan campaign, the Republican leader represents the Republicans, the Democratic leader represents the Democrats.

The worst one becomes president.

He must not lead the Republicans.

He must lead the Republic, not the Democrats, but the democracy.

So in Mr.

Reagan's job description, he has the legal and moral obligation to lead the Republic and all of its people, not just the Republicans.

Beryl> And on that note, I'm afraid our time is up.

Thank you very much for being with us.

Thank you, Kay.

Kay> What a nice goodbye.

Beryl> First, I've ever had.

Kay> Operation P.U.S.H.

again is in Charleston for their national convention.

Our thanks once again is to the Reverend Jesse Jackson and his nice kiss to Beryl Dakers.

We'll be back again to tomorrow night on "Open Line".

Good night and have a good evening.

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