Picture an elite New England boarding school for girls.

Add to this an outsider with a history of mental illness, who's struggling to fit in.

It's a coming-of-age novel with secrets that are deadly.

This is "St. Andrew's School for Girls."

Welcome to Between The Covers.

I'm Ann Bocock.

Jessica Ward is the pseudonym for number one New York Times bestselling author, J.R. Ward.

Her new novel is a coming-of-age thriller set in 1991 at an elite boarding school in Massachusetts.

It's the "St. Ambrose School for Girls," and I'm so excited to talk with the author, Jessica Ward.

Hi, Jessica.

Hi, thank you very much for having me.

Let's start with the dedication, and your dedication is to Sarah Taylor.

And Sarah Taylor is the fictional main character.

So start with that.

Why that dedication?

I woke up from a dream, having envisioned this young girl with dyed black hair, with brown blonde roots coming out of the water, and she was dressed in sort of goth clothes before it was goth.

Like I recognize it because I was in prep school in like the late '80s, early '90s.

And she woke me up, and I was like, "Oh, my gosh."

I was like, "Who is this?"

And I kept kind of like taking that image of her face and her clothes and her hair and wondering why was I seeing roots?

Why was she dying it?

Why was she wearing her clothes like that?

What was her story?

And she looked at me with such penetrating eyes, and the more I focused on that aspect of the dream, the more I got other pictures, like the gates of St. Ambrose and the school lawn and her mother and the car and the hot residential advisor.

And so she opened this whole world up, and I was like, "I have to write this, because I've gotta find out who dies and who did it."

And so it all came about because of that dream and because of her.

So when it got to the dedication, I was like, "You know what?"

I was like, "She's the one who gets it."

That is the most vivid dream.

I mean, it's a vivid on the pages, but I can't believe you actually dreamt that.

And that was the starting point.

Talk a little bit about Sarah.

Who is she?

Well, I think that there are, when we're teens, particularly teenage girls, the experience of being an outsider is something that I think many of us have lived through.

And I have a teenage daughter, and I've been watching her live through her phases of being an outsider.

And so I think the whole book on Sarah M. Taylor is a melding of what it's like to be an outsider during a time when there were not the resources and the recognition about mental health and about resources and about neurodivergence and about kids who don't fit in the like "normal path."

And so she's really an outsider at a school that is very about being insiders.

And so that is the essential conflict of the whole novel.

I'm not gonna spoil anything, but in the very first chapter, you tell us that somebody's gonna be dead by the end of the semester.

So now, there's a way to hook your readers.

Interesting.

Very clever way to do that, don't you think?

Well, I was kind of taking the reader on the experience I had, because again, I had that dream of her, and then I started looking up, and then all of a sudden, I saw a dead body.

So that's how I write.

I'm not smart enough to actually construct any of this stuff.

I have movies that play in my head, and my job as the author is to take those movies, those snippets and put them in a chronological order that makes sense.

And then try and transcribe those images into words such that my readers, when they read my words, they can approximate what I'm seeing in my head.

And so I thought to myself, "Well, all's fair."

I don't know.

All I know is the author at the point when I was writing the book was, "I know someone's dead and I don't know who did it, so reader, let's all go on this together."

Because I often feel with my books that I'm really just the first reader, because as I'm writing, I figure if I am engaged, if I'm sad, if I'm happy, if I'm laughing, then if I'm doing my job right, then my readers will feel what I'm feeling.

I love what you just said about you as the author being the first reader, and I don't think I've ever heard it quite put that way, but that makes perfect sense to me.

The setting of the book is this elite boarding school.

It's the '90s, and the school is St. Ambrose School for Girls.

The school is a character in itself.

And if you don't mind taking a moment and painting the picture of what St. Ambrose is and what it looks like.

I went to Northfield Mount Hermon, which is a prep school in Massachusetts.

And when I was there, one of the things that I loved most about it were the rolling green lawns that separated these beautiful buildings.

And some were Victorian and some were Georgian, and some were typical dorms that were brick with white columns.

And some were little cottages that had been turned into dorms.

And so each part of the campus had its own feel and its own sort of accent within the larger hole of these beautiful buildings, this beautiful lawn, the cement sidewalks that weave in between.

And when you are walking with your school books under your arm, and it's 1988 or '87, and you're 18 years old and you're thinking about where to go to college, and it is a September day in New England, and the sky is a piercing blue with no clouds and all of the trees around you, the maples are all screaming pink and it's the most beautiful, it's almost like a Kodachrome heaven, right?

And underneath that is, I'm worried about my grades, my boyfriend's cheating on me.

I hate my roommate.

The residential advisor's of BITCH.

Like there's all this stuff.

And so the thing that I think is interesting is the school is physically perfect, like a Stepford wife in her matching sweater set with her pearls.

And underneath that skull of hers is a teaming cauldron of emotion.

And I like that dichotomy between so beautiful on the surface and then all what's really happening underneath.

And that's one of the reasons why I love where it's set.

No question that you went to boarding school, because you paint this picture so beautifully.

This book is set in the '90s, and that's an interesting time period, and you do make it work beautifully, yet with the music choices and the fashion choices.

Did you always know that it would take place in the '90s and not now?

Yes, absolutely, 100%.

Because again, I think part of it was watching my daughter go through her sort of early, early, very tweens and teens and thinking back about what it was like when I was that age, going to a school like that.

And I think that, again, back in those days, if you were, like, I'm on the autistic scale and I was neurodivergent and I was socially awkward and I felt like an alien and out of place and everyone else seemed to understand how to be friendly and have conversations and everything seemed so easy for so many people.

And I was very much a gangly, awkward, just struggling with so many things that everyone else seemed to do so with such facility.

I just think that back then, recognizing how alone kids were, if they were different, it makes them a kind of adult in a situation.

Like at the one hand, they're children, but they're forced to take care of themselves and find their own way.

And so I think it adds, I think that time period adds to the conflict, adds to the isolation of Sarah.

The time period itself is kind of like a character like the school.

Very well said.

And I was thinking as I was reading it, it would be a totally different book if it were set now because of social media.

I mean, this was Oh.

Human to human mean girl bullying, not what we have now.

And that's where the story comes in, this face-to-face interaction.

Sarah, as you said, she's bipolar.

She's so real to me.

First of all, and I've got so many questions about this, was it a challenge to write about mental illness and to do it as you did, to do it justice?

Well, that was one of the things that I was actually worried about this book, because when I first saw Sarah and I first started writing the book, I didn't know.

So it wasn't until that shower scene in the first, like basically the first act of the book that I realized that there was something more than her just being sort of a social outcast, that there was a deeper layer to what was separating her from her peers.

My concern was, as someone who does not have, I don't have that diagnosis.

I'm not very close to anyone who who has it.

I was very concerned because as I don't have that lived experience, how was I going to do this?

Because something as serious a diagnosis as that is, and with what people have it go through, it can't just be a little plot twist, do you know?

Because it's incredibly disrespectful to people who have that disorder.

And so what I did was I started to educate.

It took me three years to write the book, and I did a lot of research into the condition, how it was treated back in the late '80s and early '90s when lithium was a frontline treatment for it.

And also, when you put an adolescent on lithium, what does that do?

How do you monitor it?

What was the standard of care back then?

What were the resources that were available?

How would someone have lived with it then?

And then after I did all that research, I interviewed people who had it, and I educated myself as best I could.

And then after the book was written, I had it read by people who actually have the diagnosis, people whose siblings or children had the diagnosis to make sure, with those sensitivity readings, if I have inadvertently done something that is not appropriate.

I'm very grateful they were willing to share with me their stories and experiences and read the book and give me feedback.

I am so impressed by everything that you just said, and it is so apparent that you did the work, you did the research.

I love Sarah's internal voice.

And the reader gets inside of her mind.

We are in her thoughts.

And frankly, it was a place I really didn't wanna leave.

I loved knowing her from her brain, from her mind.

Her internal voice in itself is another character, is it not?

Yes, I totally agree.

And I think that there's almost like a second self to her, and that second self, and it's not a multiple personality kind of thing, but it is an other to her.

Played such a strong role.

And without giving things, towards the end of the book, there's a moment of cohesion between those two halves of her that I think is really quite beautiful.

And again, I'm saying that because it was what the pictures I saw.

It's not something that I feel that I created.

And so I agree with you, And I think that that's one of the reasons why I love this book is because there are so many layers that are so tangible.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Exactly.

So Sarah considers herself an outsider because of mental illness, but as I'm reading it, I'm thinking she's such a relatable character.

Everyone at sometimes feels that they are an outsider, especially that age group.

So isn't that the feedback you get?

Isn't she relatable?

Yes, and I'm surprised about the number of people who have read the book, who have come forward with their own experiences that maybe it wasn't about bipolar, maybe it was about having an eating disorder they were hiding, or maybe it was their gender or their sexuality, or sometimes it was their religion, or it was something about their family background that they didn't want to know, a parent who had been incarcerated.

Lots of them are mostly women.

Actually, all of the feedback I've gotten have been from women of my age who are like in their mid50s who are reflecting on that time.

And then also doing what I'm doing, which is if you have children, seeing your own kids being that age.

So again, I think it goes back to how relatable just being an outsider is, particularly if you are a young woman in that time and of that age.

And comforting to see yourself, even if you don't have what Sarah has in this book.

You will have serious sensitive subjects in this wonderful story.

And I don't want anyone to think that it is not a page-turner fabulous story.

In addition to the bipolar diagnosis, you touch on depression and suicide and sexual orientation.

And for the sexual orientation in the '90s, certainly not how we look at that subject today.

So you had to go back a few decades and also think, how were people accepted then?

Well, and also, I had some friends of mine who were gay back then, and I remember that it was something that had to be kept very quiet.

And it was something that was not shared easily and not shared readily because there were such consequences.

And not just consequences from like an administration at a religious school, but social consequences, consequences with parents.

And again, I think that that was one of those things that made us growing up at that time, you had to learn how to handle things in ways that I think kids maybe don't have to handle things now because there is such support.

And don't get me wrong.

I mean, I think more support needs to be offered, but I think that this is a much healthier environment.

There still are things that need to be improved, but I think it certainly is a lot better than it was back then.

But I think it made kids of our generation have to grow up and smarten up and take care of themselves in ways that they don't have to now.

I've never asked an author this, but can we talk about CVS?

Because in some way, the CVS employees, they were a lifeline.

They were, I mean, think CVS was a community that threw her a lifeline.

I loved that part of the book.

Well, and the other thing is, is that that particular CVS is actually taken from a very specific CVS in Whitehall, New York.

I spent my summers up on Lake George, and there was a CVS in Whitehall, New York.

And I used to go in there when I was 12, 13 years old.

And I would buy some candy or magazines or that kind of thing.

And I can remember the way it smelled, the way when you walked in, the fluorescent lights.

I remember the old-fashioned ads.

I remember the layout of it.

And I think that that's another thing that was so vivid.

I just put it in the book, 'cause I could see it so clearly in my own.

The bookstore was another one.

The bookstore at Northfield Mount Hermon, that is the bookstore.

Not the lady who works behind the counter.

She was just something in my head.

But that bookstore is right out of the Northfield campus, which has since closed down.

But that's a real place too.

For people who haven't read the book yet and won't understand what we were talking about with CVS, there is a scene in the book where the employees at CVS, this is a very dark time in Sarah's life, throw her lifeline, and it really does help.

There are lots of interesting themes, and one thing that I picked up on was how adults really seem to fail the children.

And I'm not talking just Sarah.

It was like across the board.

Was that on purpose?

I think that, yet again, I think that how the adults behaved was very much a part of being a kid in the late '80s and early '90s, which is some of them were out, without going into details there, there are some that behave in illegal ways.

But it was just the sense that the kids, you're on your own.

Like as well-intended as some people are, some adults are, in large measure, underneath all the rules, regulations, and administrations of the prep school, there's the kids and it's the wild west.

I mean, it's Lord of the Flies dressed in Benetton.

And so I think it forces kids to be adults early, because you better figure it out, or the consequences are real and they're gonna come down on your head, not on some adults.

But that gets back to your point about the pharmacist, for example, in the CVS.

There are still these high points of these adults that actually step up when they have to.

And I feel as though, without going into too many details, one of my favorite scenes in the book is between Sarah and her mother, when her mother comes to campus.

And the way all of a sudden, the two of them grow to respect each other and love each other in the nuanced fashion of adults as opposed to that strictly parent-child thing, and I think when Sarah gets an insight into her mother's life and her mother's motivations, it suddenly helps her respect her mother.

And she never really did that before.

So that, I think that's a great.

But I also think that that's what happens, right?

When you're a kid and your parents are literally there to make sure you eat and to make sure you are not doing something that will, you know, licking two fingers and shoving them into a light socket, that oversight grows and grows until it fractures, because you are in charge of your own life.

And then hopefully, when that fracture occurs, you can kind of meet your parents as people and not just as these overlords of your life.

And so I think it's wonderful that Sarah had that experience with her mom.

I do too.

And her mother is a fabulous character.

No spoilers.

And I kinda wanna just talk around this, just a tiny bit if you can.

And that is the scene in the cafeteria at the end of the book.

Can I just say thank you, and you really got me with that one?

Ugh.

Me too, me too.

I think one of the hardest things, so there's a couple of really hard things when you're a kid back in those days.

One was there were no assigned lunch tables for mealtimes.

And so you had to either find a group or eat alone.

And who you ate with was part of your identity.

It was part of you and the social strata.

And so the scene at the end, there's just this visceral moment showing that Sarah had found her support system.

And it's just, oh, it's wonderful.

I mean, I agree with you.

That is one of my favorite, favorite scenes in the book too.

It was very special.

And I don't have enough of Sarah, so I kinda wanna know more, but that's for another discussion, I think.

There are other characters in this book that are so well-drawn.

There is the geometry teacher.

There is Greta, who is the mean girl.

She's so mean that if there were grades in mean, she'd get a plus across the board.

And there's Strots, the roommate.

And as roommates, they are the most unlikely of friends.

But was that relationship really fun to develop?

Well, it was so great, because I think for reasons that are not initially apparent to the reader, Strots and Sarah have something in common, which is they both have secrets that have to be hidden.

They have to be hidden for different reasons.

But I think when you have a secret you're keeping to yourself, it makes you more empathetic to people who are keeping secrets for good reasons too.

And I think that Strots and Sarah are kind of united against Greta in ways the reader discovers later.

Greta is Sarah's bully.

I loved working with my editor on this book.

And one of the things that she kept saying to me was you have to show the motivation for Greta more.

You have to help the reader understand why.

Like why is she so awful?

And my response to that kind of was, and I think there's a line of it in the book, which is when you are the object of a bully and you are being subjected to everything they do to you, you really don't care what their motivation is.

Their motivation, it's their goal, which is to torture you.

That's all you care about.

You don't care about why they're doing it, the nuances of what's going on in their background or who their parents are or what stresses.

If you're 15 years old and someone is messing around with your personal effects and what happens later, you just really don't care about it.

But I did explain and flush Greta out a little bit, but it was kind of under protest, because I kind of actually wanted to write the book with just like Greta is just who she is.

But I understand how it was helpful to put that in.

But I think you're right.

I think the poor geometry teacher, oh gosh, oh.

It was so painful.

During Mountain Day with the coleslaw on the picnic table.

But yeah, no, I think that it was so much fun to get into these other people's lives and how it all kind of weaves towards the end.

Let's switch it up.

When did you know you wanted to be a writer?

I wrote my first story when I was seven years old.

It was called "George and The Dragon."

I still have it.

And I wanted to write stories down ever since I could do anything.

I think as my mom calls it, it's just part of your software package in your brain.

It's like someone who's good at math or is good at sports or whatever.

It's just the way you process things in your own life, process things about you, things you see, things that you wonder about, things you're curious about.

So I was kind of always, that's what I always did.

But I realized I had to make a living in this world.

And so when I graduated from college with a double major in art history and history with a medieval concentration in both from Smith, I was great at cocktail conversation, but that is not going to earn you a living.

So I said to my mom, "I've gotta go to law school because I've gotta support myself."

And she was like, "You know what you should do?

You should write.

You should really write."

And I was like, "Mom, no."

But all the way through college, I had written snippets of things and had written books.

And then in law school, all you're dealing with is like, all you're dealing with is text and words.

And I didn't write at all during law school.

And then afterwards, when I was working in Boston with my first job, and instead of going out and seeing people or doing things, I stayed home and I wrote, because it was what made me happy.

And now I'm here.

So I'm lucky.

The book is "The St. Ambrose School for Girls."

Jessica Ward, I wanna thank you so much for sharing your time with me.

Thank you very much for having me.

I'm very grateful.

I'm Ann Bocock.

Please join me on the next Between The Covers.