[bright instrumental music] ♪ ♪ - Hello, and welcome to Comic Culture.

I'm Terence Dollard, a professor in the Department of Mass Communication at the university of North Carolina at Pembroke.

My guest today is cartoonist Jim Keefe.

Jim, welcome to Comic Culture.

- Thanks for having me, I appreciate the opportunity.

- Now, Jim, you are the artist on one of my favorite syndicated newspaper strips, "Sally Forth".

So I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about how you got involved in this strip, 'cause it's a great strip about a family and they seem to know they're in a comic strip.

So I was wondering if you could share your take on that.

- Well that, I don't know how far you want me to go back, 'cause I kind of been in syndication for a while, working on different strips, ghosting strips, this, that, and the other thing.

So how I got into "Sally Forth" in particular, I had just moved out to Minnesota from New York.

I'd been working out there for a while and I had worked on staff at King Features Syndicate.

And when I got out here, I kind of put feelers out, local cartoonists and everything.

There's a school here that has a degree in comics, Minneapolis College of Art and Design.

And so, there's a lot of local stuff going on here, which it's just kind of a hotbed in that respect.

But as far as putting out feelers, I got in touch with a guy called Craig McIntosh and he was the guy who was drawing "Sally Forth."

And because I had worked at King Feature Syndicate, we met for lunch and we kind of just touched base with each other.

And within we got along pretty well, we just kind of had very similar interests, love for the art form, of course.

But within the next few months he actually got ill where he was okay to draw a pencil, but he had trouble inking.

So he reached out to me and he said, "Hey, listen, you know, I don't wanna, hopefully this isn't an issue, but I've seen your stuff and I know you can handle this, if I pencil it, can you do some inking of "Sally Forth"?

Kind of get me over the hump."

And that's how I started doing "Sally Forth," I started doing some inking for him and he liked how it looked.

And he also liked how it kind of freed him up to do some other stuff.

So I started pretty regularly inking Sundays and coloring the Sundays.

And because he used to FedEx stuff, I then was able to scan stuff for him and send it digitally instead of all the FedEx fees, which he was so happy with.

So that's how I originally got started with the strip.

I was working as an assistant to Craig McIntosh, who was a phenomenal cartoonist.

And he actually, the strip started in around 1982 by Greg Howard.

Greg was the writer and artist of the strip for I'm thinking about 10 years until he brought Craig on board.

He wanted kind of to free himself up a little himself, open up the world, as far as 'cause he was a lawyer turned cartoonist and he brought in a cartoonist who was like, oh, this could open up all sorts of things if we, the artist can, it's like Greg had certain set pieces he had where Craig Macintosh could just draw all this other stuff, which then could be a part of the strip.

So Craig Macintosh worked on the strip with Greg Howard and then it was sold to King Features when Greg Howard left it and that's around the time Francesco Marciuliano took it over as far as the writer.

So it was Francesco and Craig for a long time and I'm trying to get all the names right.

So, and like I said, that's where I came in.

And when Craig Macintosh decided he wanted to retire within probably just a couple years of me being an assistant, he asked me if I was interested in taking over the strip and it seemed like a good fit.

The syndicate didn't know that Craig had an assistant at the time.

So he kind of presented to me to King Features and said, "Hey, but here's this guy he's been an assistant on the strip, I'm looking to retire.

This would be a good fit.

Of course, it was King's decision.

And Francesco's as far as if I'd be hired.

So I still had to do samples and stuff and I submitted samples.

I got the green light and in a very long way of answering your question, that's how I got set up with drawing "Sally Forth."

So it wasn't a case of say they were looking for someone and then I submitted stuff.

It was a case of someone was retiring and it was just a easy fit for King Features.

As far as they knew I could do the work.

I had done a strip before Flash Gordon for them.

So they knew who I was.

I was a known entity and that's how I ended up getting the strip.

- And one of the things I like about the strip is that there is sort of a wink to the audience that these characters are aware that they are in a comic strip, that they're aware of the certain tropes and things that go on there.

And the 40th anniversary series sort of really kind of played into that where you had 1982, Sally coming back to try and take the place of 2022 Sally.

So, I see behind you, you've got some Spider-Man stuff.

You've got some other comic stuff around you.

How does that sort of love of comics help you kind of tell some offbeat stories with a wink and a nod to the audience?

- I think, and this is true with a lot of strips of course, they're not your characters per se.

If you are working for DC or Marvel, you're working on Spider-Man or Superman or whatever character, it may be a character, you have a real fondas for, but at the same time you have to kind of make it your own.

So when Francesco took over writing Sally Forth, it was a case of, it was a strip that was created in the '80s when it was very much male centric.

So, "Sally Forth" comes along and here's a working woman as the lead of the strip.

Now, when Francesco takes it over years later, it's a different world like that isn't so novel, of course.

So he has to make it his own.

And I think when you say those kind of winks to the audience and such, it's taking a character that's already established and trying to like find your hook into the character, finding something that will, like that you can kind of give voice to.

And the same way, like Francesco writes it.

He may ask me for some suggestions here or there as far as, oh, what do you want to do this summer for like a getaway for the characters or such?

But it's the same for me.

Like he gives me the strips and then I have the same as him.

I have to find that hook that get, makes it of interest to me so that it then is it's playful for the reader as well.

Hopefully, they can see that kind of enthusiasm and that we're having fun with the strip.

So I think a lot of that nodding like that little wink to the reader is something we appreciate in other, in TV or movies we like as far as that kind of comedy, so we put it in the strip.

- It's really kind of fun because thinking back to that 40th anniversary where they're kind of looking back at the way they looked or the way they acted or how come I did this and how come I did that.

It's just kind of fun for creators to look back at something and maybe see where the changes have come and kind of en enjoy that.

But I'm thinking about legacy strips, like let's say Blondie, and this is something that struck me recently and kind of says why I'm so popular at parties.

But I was wondering, I was thinking to myself, Dagwood Bumstead is probably in his universe, probably younger than I am at this point.

And I've been reading him since I was a little kid.

And I'm just thinking, I mean, he's working in middle management, he's got teenage kids.

At this point, he is probably younger than I, he's never gonna get any older, but he's sort of in this world, whereas we see in "Sally Forth", we see that that Ted's aware of things that have happened and we'll occasionally make a comment about, well, how could that be?

'Cause I'm only this old or we get to actually see the time jump a few years ago where, where Hillary gets to be a few years older now in high school.

So I'm just wondering as you and Francesco were talking, is this something that you kind of like, hey, we can kind of mix it up?

- It is, working on a comic strip is very weird in that regard because, and I think of when you mentioned, Blondie like it's a strip that's been around since the '30s, like Blondie started out as this flapper who gets married, who's dating this rich guy and the storyline, as far as him getting married was the, he had to give up his wealth to marry Blondie and that kind of stuff is I'm sure most readers, unless they're into comic strips, have no clue about that kind of stuff.

So the same with "Sally Forth" where granted, it hasn't been along the same amount of time, it's been around since the '80s, but you're working on something where any kind of reference you put into the strip that's topical within a few years.

It's not topical anymore in that same regard.

And I was thinking about that as far as we showed like Hillary in her room and she's upset about something and her mother's talking to her and just any kind of posters I have in the room, I try to keep 'em, I kind of check with my daughters like what kind, what's the singer, that's the most popular at this moment?

'Cause if I'm putting something that was popular in the '80s, it's not gonna ring true in the strip that she would have that in her room.

So, but as soon as you put that in her room, you kind of date the character like this is the era that character is in, but then you end up working on the character for 10, 20 years and you, the character has not aged.

So it's a very bizarre art form in that sense where you wanna keep things fresh.

You wanna change things up, but you can't, in some regards you can't, because they are, they're pretty much staying the same age.

Like we did a just a couple years for Hillary being older and such, there are strips of course, where the characters do age.

And in that respect, a lot of that is when the person who writes it actually has ownership of the character as well, in my case, it's worked for hire.

So the strip is very much owned by King Features.

So we can't make those kind of changes to it where Lynn Johnston, "For Better Or For Worse" or other strips where the characters age like the writer has that ability.

And even though like, it's interesting with Charles Schultz where he didn't age the characters per se, but you look back in the '50s to the '60s and he actually did, like Lucy started out as this little baby and then grew to a certain age and then it just stayed that way.

And he's like, he's kind of figuring out how to work these characters and what works best.

And then at the same time at the end of his tenure, like no one's gonna take over the strip.

Like it's gonna continue with movies and even comic books or such, but the strip itself is not going to be touched, as far as anyone, but him, it's just a weird medium to work in that way.

And I'm sure the comic book guy people doing comic books, it's the same way.

Like you're working on Batman and there's only so much you can do to the character other than it's like a story that kind of sits by itself in an alternate universe kind of thing.

So like I do appreciate creator own strips and characters where the writer does have that kind of freedom to play with the character more where there is almost this more of a sense that if something happens, there's more resonance to it in a way, because we know now that's not gonna change.

In a comic strip, it just doesn't work that same way.

- It's funny you mentioned a couple of different things that I wanna touch on, but one of them is, during the pandemic Sally is and her family, they are dealing with it.

A lot of strips chose not to deal with it, but Sally does.

And now we're seeing in the strips that are being published.

Now we're in April of 2020, 2022, geez.

- It's all a blur.

Our last couple years, it's a little bit of a blur.

- Ted's starting to go back to the office and he's complaining about that.

And we had recently Hill comes to Sally and talks about how stress and anxiety is really making it tough for her to enjoy herself.

And that's a bit heavy.

So you can put these heavy elements in the story, but then you also have this, the occasional goofy stuff where Ted is having a fantasy about the killing joke when everyone's eating the ears off the Easter bunnies, the chocolate Easter bunnies.

So how do you sort of come up with the right tone for a story that's kind of serious, still has to have a little bit of a joke in it and something that's completely, maybe an homage to the killing joke on a Sunday strip or something.

How do you kind of balance that, that levity and that seriousness with three panels?

- Ah, it is a balancing act.

Like Francesco and I have talked about that where these last few years it was a case of, do we address masks?

Do we address COVID whatsoever?

I know some strips decided, yeah, we're not, which is their call and it's, I have no issue with it whatsoever.

We decided, well, we're gonna kind of dive in and to see if we can't address this in the strip, but we do talk about how "Sally Forth" is light drama.

Like it is there's things that are happening serious.

A few years ago, we even had an episode where Ted's dad died and it was something Francesco's dad had died, I think like a year previous.

And he just wanted to kind of in a weirdly comedic way, you know, kind of looking back, just kind of, and also light drama, but light drama touch on that.

Like how that affects the characters.

That balancing act, some people really appreciate it.

They are very much like, oh, these are things I'm dealing with.

And I'm glad it's addressed in the strip in a way that can kind of make me laugh.

And with the political situation in the world, it was weird.

'Cause I can draw a mask on a character in the strip and all of a sudden I'm getting emails about how, it's a fake pandemic and why are they doing this?

And COVID, isn't real.

And I hate this strip and I'm gonna blah, blah, blah.

And so like, there's no winning there.

You just kind of have to be as true.

You gotta be true to the characters, keep it.

It is a comic strip.

You got it, you have that humorous, you wanna keep it humorous.

But at the same time you almost kind of have to not worry about offending people.

'Cause you can, it's amazing how benign I can do something or Jess can do something and people will still take offense.

This past week where we mentioned Ted going back to work, we didn't mention masks.

We didn't, no one was wearing a mask, but I still got reader response about masks, even though it wasn't even mentioned in the strip.

Like so no matter what, some people will be offended because it's almost like they're just, they want that anger.

I don't know.

But you just gotta, you don't feed the trolls as the saying goes, you just try to be as truthful to the topic and the strip as possible.

- Now we're talking about the pandemic and last week you emailed me and said that you had come down with COVID and we rescheduled for this week.

And I'm just wondering, you said that you were work for hire and I'm just wondering how you kind of worked that out where you can't work maybe for a few days, but you still have to get the strip done.

And how does that affect your bottom line?

- Yeah, it is one of those things where I think people don't realize that we have comic strips or comic books in regards to the people working on them, when you're working for Warner Brothers, DC, DC Comics, Marvel Comics, or on a comic strip where you don't own the character like "Sally Forth", it's under a work for hire contract.

And a work for hire contract is a way for the company to say, we own this character.

So what you are producing, we own and we are the author of which of course it does, like I don't go into these contracts blind.

I know what I'm signing, of course, and if I'm working on a character that's already established, it makes sense for the company to say in writing, here's what we own.

And this is what you are doing for us as an independent contractor.

But when you're working as an independent contractor, when you're working freelance, you aren't working for the company as an employee.

And what I mean by that is you don't have the health benefits.

You don't have vacation pay, you don't have sick days.

So when something happens like COVID or a sickness or just life happening, the deadline can get pretty stressful.

And I'm speaking for all freelancers in animation, cartooning, like we all deal with this, it's so common.

Like we have our little groups on Facebook or whatever, where we talk about this stuff.

And like I know comic, I know comic artists who will send a like photo of themselves 'cause something happened and they're in the hospital and they'll send a photo of themselves in the hospital bed just working on a deadline where, I mean, that's the sad nature of it.

It's something which like every freelancer has to deal with.

And actually this brings up, there's a thing called the Hero Initiative and it's called, it's at like Hero Initiative.

I'm gonna give a plug heroinitiative.org.

And because of this situation with freelancers and where something can happen out of the blue and you can be kicked on your ass and all of a sudden you're out of a job with no money coming in a organization like Hero Initiative, steps in and helps pay some of those costs for the artist, which is just phenomenal.

There's so many artists, you look at all these Marvel and DC movies being made.

And for the most part, the creators, when you see that credit line at the end of a movie where after the 10 minutes of everyone working on the movie, there'll be a credit line with some of the artists who created the characters you actually saw, that credit line doesn't mean they're getting paid.

That just means that they are being acknowledged for working on that character or in some cases having created that character, there are a few artists, Jack Kirby who created much of the Marvel Universe, Siegel and Shuster who created Superman after much litigation and lawyers were able to get something out of the company for all the work they had done.

But there's so many nameless people who have created all these characters, which people love and are in these movies that make millions and billions of dollars, but they're kind of forgotten other than a credit line.

And it's a case like that where something like the Hero Initiative is really important, 'cause it kind of steps up for those artists, which I can't say enough for.

- And it is, we hear about artists who've created some great characters, great comics and towards the end of their lives, they're destitute and it's great that there is an organization that can help them.

And I hope that the folks watching, if they're interested, they'll go to the website and perhaps make a donation if they've enjoyed the characters over the years.

Now I see we've about three or so minutes left in our conversation.

I wanted to talk a little bit... - That's it?

- I know, time flies when you're having fun, but I wanted to talk a little bit about the tools that you use, because I think recently you posted a picture on Facebook that you have dip pens and brushes that you use when you're working on "Sally Forth."

- Yes.

- So I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about the way you do actually do the art.

- Well, and I do use the computer.

I do have a working tablet.

I used to hand when I was working on Flash Gordon, I used to hand letter everything, now it's done digitally.

There are certain strips which will be mostly digital because it'll involve whatever, but I just as much as possible, I like to keep the dip pen.

I love using the brush.

Just that, what is the word, tactile?

That just that pen to paper I've always loved.

I love the look of an ink line and there's something about working on the computer and I'm not down.

Like there are phenomenal digital artists out there.

For me, I get the joy out of using pen and ink, so I can still use it, work on the strip, scan art in afterwards, do touch ups, lettering.

Coloring is all done digitally, but it still gives me so much enjoyment to use pen and ink, and to use a brush, I love using a brush.

I have ever since I was introduced to them way back at the Cubert School back in the day when I first started learning about this stuff.

So it's the love of the craft, which really has me still doing pen and ink, I enjoyed like, there's an aspect of digital I enjoy and it speeds up certain production aspects of the strip.

But for me, I'll always, whenever possible I'll be using dip pen and brush.

- There's something special about just holding the finished piece in your hand.

- Yes.

- You can't walk around with a tablet 'cause at some point it runs outta batteries or you pull it out of the wall.

- Well and if you see like it's, I have a couple artist editions behind me, one of 'em which reproduce artwork.

So it looks like the original.

And I remember there was a, I was able to see some of Bernie Wrightson's originals for Frankenstein and that kind of work is just, I have a love for that, it is just so beautiful.

So I can, yeah, I can't say enough.

It really, that's the art form for me is that pen and ink on paper.

- It is amazing whenever you, I get a chance to go to a con and there's an art dealer there who has original pages just looking the line work of like Joe Sinnott or Dick Giordano over someone's pencils, it's just magical to see that actual line on the page.

But unfortunately, they're telling us that we are out of time.

So Jim, I'd like to thank you so much for taking time out of your schedule to talk with me today.

- Thank you so much.

I really appreciated it.

Hopefully I haven't rambled on too long here and there, but that's the purpose of an interview.

So I guess that's okay.

- Absolutely and I'd like to thank everyone at home for watching Comic Culture, we will see you again soon.

[bright instrumental music] ♪ [bright instrumental music] - [Narrator] Comic Culture is a production of the Department of Mass Communication at the University of North Carolina at Pembroke.

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