>> Hi, I'm Lewis Howes, New York Times best-selling author and entrepreneur, and welcome to "The School of Greatness," where we interview the most influential minds and leaders in the world today to inspire you to live your best life.

In this episode, we sit down with Rachel Platten, Emmy Award winner, author, multi-platinum-selling recording artist, and mother, and today she shares how to overcome doubt when dreams fall apart, the struggle with being a mother and pursuing career goals, and dealing with mental-health challenges and high-pressure moments.

I'm so glad you're here today.

So let's dive in and let the class begin.

♪ ♪ Anyone who's created, who has a dream or the passion, it's really hard for people to make a living out of it.

>> Mm.

>> It's easier than ever with the tools that are available, but it's hard to get people to, like, buy into your creative dream, right?

>> Yes.

>> And you've experienced this for a long time.

>> Yeah.

>> And I think you were 23 when you started doing -- performing in front of hospitals, right, like, going and just doing it for the love of it.

>> Yes.

>> To bring joy to kids.

And then you were touring for years, but no one was showing up, right?

It was just like -- >> No, like 10, 15 people maybe.

I was begging people on the street, literally.

>> Begging them?

Like, "Please come in"?

>> Yeah, I'd, like, go to a city and be like, "Okay, I'm gonna do a tour."

And then we'd show up at the city and pray that there was an audience at all, and sometimes just, like, stand outside the venue with flyers and be like, "You want to come see some music?"

If we collected like 10 or 15 people, we'd feel really good about it.

>> When was the moment where you were like, "Wow, I made it"?

Or do you feel like you've made it yet?

>> Oh, man.

I've had, like, different moments of it where I felt it and then it's fleeting.

And I think that's the thing with basing your happiness on something external in general, is that it never lasts.

I don't think that I have felt like I've reached my full potential yet in what I'm supposed to be doing in this world with my music, but there have definitely been moments where I probably, if I was being kinder to myself, I would be like, "Rachel, are you kidding?"

>> But how do you stay motivated and excited when you launch it and it doesn't go anywhere for a year?

>> Dude, I don't know.

>> How do you sustain your energy for a year to stay positive and then it pops?

>> It wasn't a sustained line of constant positivity.

It took -- It was dips.

And honestly I'm asking myself that same question now.

>> [ Laughs ] >> Like, I really am.

It's so funny, but I'm like, "Who was that girl and what did she believe and how do I remember that tenacity and that level of faith and that level of belief?"

Because I'm, in a way, back at a similar -- not a similar place, but a similar emotional place.

And I'm so glad you're asking me about it 'cause maybe I can relearn the lesson.

I think it was -- I was doing so much work on myself.

I was reading constantly things to fill my soul.

I was meditating.

I was journaling constantly.

I was doing a lot of charity work.

I was giving a lot.

And I had people reminding me, "Rachel, stop.

It doesn't matter what you're trying to go after.

It matters what's here and now.

That's what matters.

Let's make these 10 people in the audience have the best night of their lives."

>> Isn't that so true?

>> It is so true.

It's like be in the moment.

>> It's so true.

When I launched my podcast almost eight years ago, I remember saying like, "I just want one person to listen to this, and if I can impact that one person --" >> Did you really mean it?

>> I mean, I wanted millions to listen, but I was like... >> But that was the truth.

>> ...if I can impact one person and get one person to listen to it first and change their life or impact them in some way, then hopefully they'll share it with a friend.

>> Yeah.

>> And then the next episode will be two people.

>> Yeah.

>> And we'll see where it goes.

But I was like, "If I can just create something for one person, to improve them..." >> It makes me emotional because you're so right.

It's all that really matters, is that one person that's affected and touched, and we let our egos get in the way and have all this fear like, "Oh, it needs to impact millions of people."

No, it doesn't.

It's the same -- We're all connected, and who knows the butterfly effect of how that one person whose life is changed by hearing that we didn't give up or whatever and maybe she's gonna go treat her children differently that day and maybe -- Who knows the effect that's going to have?

And the fact that we need more is like -- it's just -- >> It's challenging 'cause I always want more.

>> I always want more.

>> I know.

>> It's interesting, that balance of like, ah, being okay with where you're at and grateful for where you're at... >> And striving for more.

>> ...and striving for more is a really tough dance.

>> How have you been managing that as a mom?

You had a tour.

You've been talking about this openly where you had postpartum depression, a lot of anxiety, stress, overwhelmed.

I love your Instagram posts because they're so real because you'll say, "For a week, I'm all in as a mom.

I'm mommed up."

Right?

>> Yeah.

>> "And then my creative side is not fulfilled, and then the next week, I'm all in as an artist, singing, creating, writing music, producing.

And then I'm not feeling like I'm there as a mom the best way I could."

What have you learned in the last year from touring to producing, writing, and being a mom, about how you're going to move into the next year of motherhood and be the creative artist that you want to with those dreams?

>> I don't know.

I don't know.

I'm still trying to find that balance.

Today, I feel a tug of guilt that... >> Just being here?

>> ...I'm not there.

>> Yeah.

>> I'm not with her.

I didn't get to pick her up at preschool today and I know her little face will be sad when she doesn't see Mom there, and yet I have felt not fulfilled artistically the past three weeks because we moved houses and I've been all in, like, with her, and so I've known that -- this is so good for my artist soul today to be here and -- I don't know.

I don't know that moms ever figure that out.

Maybe I can hear from moms listening on advice.

I think it's compassion for yourself, and, like, I think bringing awareness to it is the biggest thing of just seeing it all, like the... Like, noticing.

Noticing oh, there's guilt.

Oh, there's unwanted -- there's unfulfilled passion still when I'm with her, and there's... And maybe that's okay.

>> What would you do differently going back, starting your last tour, knowing that it was a struggle?

>> Oh, my God, it was so hard.

>> Every day you've got to show up and be bubbly and fun for 15,000, 20,000 people or however many people were there.

>> Yeah.

>> And you're depressed essentially and stressed and you're figuring out breastfeeding and being a new mom.

Like, what would you do and tell yourself a year ago if you could do it again?

>> Would I have to still do the tour?

>> Doing the tour.

>> Okay.

>> How would you -- And maybe you need to go through that as a mom.

>> You are so right.

That is the biggest piece.

>> Maybe it's not like you can't eliminate it, you just need it.

>> No, you're so right because -- No, that was like my real dark night of the soul.

Last summer was the darkest it's ever gotten for me, was having panic attacks, being out on stage with an arena full of people, and having a panic attack right before I went on stage.

>> Wow.

>> Yeah.

I can't control anything and my breast milk is diminishing and I'm going to have to give her formula, and then guilt over that and, like... Oh, my God.

What would I tell her?

I think I would...

I would just say the hardest things are the things that change you.

They always have been.

The worst things you go through are the things that give you the strength to then maybe write a song that will then change people's lives.

I think that's what's happening right now.

I can feel that transmutation happening in me, and I'm right in mid-process, so maybe we'll talk again in a year after that music has been written.

But, like, I know that there was a purpose for all that.

I got to see my shadows really deeply.

>> The dark sides?

>> I really didn't know that stuff was there.

>> What were the dark sides of you that you never saw or that you finally saw?

>> Just how controlling I am.

How self-absorbed I am.

>> In life or with every person or every situation?

>> I think with, like, my career, how I moved from a place of deep faith with the universe, with the divine, before "Fight Song" came out, to a need to control every aspect... >> Wow.

>> ...and how I stopped truly being the light that I am once I let the industry and, like, I started believing the hype of like, "Oh, you're so --" Or I hear thousands of people being like, "You healed me."

How confusing is that?

I'm sure you wrestle with it too.

You're like, "Oh, am I special?

Oh, no, maybe I'm special."

Yeah, but that separates you from God and, like, separates you from your higher self because you start buying into this belief that you're the one doing it, that you're the special one, and that's so dangerous for us.

And so I started believing it and not treating people like I want to treat people.

>> Really?

>> And being -- It was never maybe as bad as I think it was 'cause I've gone back and, like, made amends actually, and some of my closest, you know, people in my life at the time were like, "Maybe it wasn't as bad as you think, but I'm glad you're giving me that apology and thank you, and it's kind of shocking that you're understanding how it might've seemed from someone else's point of view."

>> You weren't like the evil witch of the industry, but you were -- >> I'm a kind person.

>> [ Chuckling ] Yeah.

>> But I got mixed up with -- Like, my boundaries weren't good, and so, because of that, I was allowing things to happen that then I'd lash out.

Like, rather than being like, "Oh, that doesn't feel good for me," and honoring, like, speaking up and being okay with, like, saying no to things, I'd say yes to everything.

>> And then get resentful.

>> And then get resentful and get really upset and then it would come out in, like, shadow behavior.

>> Do you think it's harder to make a hit and get successful or is it harder to stay successful?

>> Oh, such a good question.

>> Because it took you 13 years until you really "made it" in a sense, until you're like, "Okay, people know my song" or "This is a hit."

It took 13 years.

There was so much pain and energy and joy to get there.

Is it harder to get there or is it harder to stay there?

>> It's not even staying there.

I think it's staying who you are there.

>> Ooh!

'Cause no one prepares you for those moments.

Like, you have three months where you had nothing and then you have everything.

>> Everything.

And no one tells you -- >> There's no training.

>> I needed training, like fame training.

Like, "Here's how it's going to feel when people stare at you and want to take your picture.

Here's how it's going to feel when everyone tells you that you're better than everyone else."

>> Wow.

>> "Here's how to not get lost."

And no one tells anyone that, and maybe we can.

Maybe we can -- I don't know.

>> What would you say to someone who's an artist who's got a big dream, who's going to launch something?

They want it to be huge.

They want people to know their name.

What would you say about how to not lose yourself when you become famous in your industry or in the world?

>> I don't know.

I think I would say, "You need such a deep spiritual practice and you cannot waver and you need to keep the people around you that are not going to be yes-people."

Like, I think that's a really dangerous thing that happens with fame or, you know, people knowing you, is that you have everyone who works for you around you -- all of a sudden, it's not your friends that you're surrounded by.

It's people that you're paying, and so everyone's just going to tell you that, like, your behavior is okay.

So I think that having a friend, partner, whatever it is who's really going to look at you and keep you accountable might be one thing.

>> What's the biggest lesson your husband's taught you throughout this journey of hitting fame?

Because he was with you when you were a nobody, and then you hit fame, and then you had years of success, launched another album, it doesn't do the way you want it to, have a child, postpartum depression, anxiety, stress every day.

>> Yeah.

>> What's the lesson he's taught you in the last five years of all this happening?

>> That I'm lovable through all of it, that I'm still -- that I'm lovable.

That I can love myself the way he can love me, and that it doesn't matter, like, what comes or goes.

He just loved me.

>> Really?

>> And always seen who I really am and helped me to stay grounded as much as possible.

He was trying to bring me back down, but it was an experience I had to go through myself.

>> Pre-10 years ago, it was like everyone had to put out this perfect image of who they were, and I think social media now, people are seeing through that if it's only all perfect stuff.

It's kind of like, "Can we relate to someone who shows only the best?"

>> Yeah.

>> And I think there's a balance of, like, okay, showing stuff that we're happy about but also stuff that we're struggling with, and it makes us more connected to people when we do that, so I think you do an amazing job.

>> Aww.

I agree with you.

Not about me but about everyone showing their insecurities more.

It's like you can see through it quickly.

>> You can.

It's always this perfect image.

It's like, okay, you're not perfect.

>> No one's living life like that.

But we still get confused by it.

You know, I'll still look at an account that's like all the highlights and still compare my, you know, behind the scenes to that and still feel pain from that, so even though we know it, when we're not so conscious of it and we're just allowing our limbic system to, like, run and being in fight or flight -- We'll be scrolling and we'll feel pain and it will hurt and we'll feel, "Oh, I'm not good enough."

>> Do you feel like in the last year, when you were on tour, being a new mom, and dealing with this anxiety and depression, did you feel like you were dealing with a case of mental health and learning how to master your mental health?

Or do you feel like this was just a period of time because you were a new mom?

And what did learn about yourself and mental health during that time?

>> No, it was definitely a mental-health thing that I was going through, and recognizing that and allowing myself to finally say "this is bigger than just becoming a new mom.

I'm having panic attacks.

I'm struggling with something that actually has a name.

It's postpartum anxiety."

And giving myself the permission to name it then allowed me to get the help that I needed.

>> What happens when we don't name it?

>> You aren't giving yourself the permission to heal.

Like, you're keeping it in the shadow, and it's just this amorphous thing, and then you can blame other things or other people and, like, I think naming it is so powerful.

It just brings awareness to it, which is bringing light to it.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> And then you can start to be supported in the way that you need to be.

>> Do you feel like you're on the other side now of that?

>> Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Thank God I'm way -- I'm -- I can feel myself again.

I can feel myself back to who I am again.

I found my light again.

But even after six months, I was like, "I'm healed!"

I was not.

>> [ Laughs ] >> You know, it took a minute.

Also some of that is breastfeeding and the hormones you have to regulate.

I breastfed until she was a year old, and once I stopped, that was when I was really, fully able to, like, recover my hormonal balance 'cause you're still then producing for what your baby needs.

But it was a mental-health thing, and I think women don't feel permission to name that after having a baby 'cause you're embarrassed about it, and the truth is, if you need to take medicine, if you need to have therapy, if you need to give yourself permission to heal, you need to be able to name it so you can, like, give yourself all those resources and not just be like, "Oh, get it together.

What's wrong with me?"

Or call it the baby blues and then -- which is what a lot of women confuse actual postpartum with 'cause there is a thing where you get, like, a minor depression after the serotonin of birth wears off.

>> Right.

>> But postpartum is something very real.

>> How do you navigate now financial wealth as an artist?

Like, quickly, within a year, two years time, from 20 grand a year to -- I don't know -- I'm assuming millions when you started to get the bigger contracts.

How do you navigate that emotionally, spiritually, mentally?

>> Well...

I changed my mind-set around money before I made money.

>> Mm, that's smart.

>> So I haven't really changed my relationship to money since that big healing I did.

>> What did you do around money before you made it?

>> It sounds a little crazy.

I had this -- I found this app.

I think I read some law of attraction book around money.

>> Uh-huh, "The Secret" or something.

>> Something like that, and one of those Napoleon Hill ones, and I really believed it, and so -- >> "Think and Grow Rich"?

>> Yeah, something like that, and I really took it to heart, and I started to practice it, and so I did this long before "Fight Song" hit.

This is when I was still very broke.

I just started -- it's a little embarrassing.

I'm gonna share it with you.

>> Share.

I love this.

It's exciting.

>> It was an app I found.

This is 10 years ago.

I don't know if the app is still around.

And the app was a fake checkbook.

[ Laughs ] And I'd write myself a check for $30 million, and then I'd spend it, and I'd be like, "Oh, $10,000?

I want that microphone.

Cool.

$20,000 -- I'm gonna rent this thing.

Dope, I'm gonna get my hair colored for $500" 'cause I couldn't afford that in real life.

"I'm gonna go on this $20,000 vacation," and I would just write -- it was a game.

I'd, like, game it, really.

>> It was like a mental game?

>> It was a mental game, and then I'd do this thing where I'd, like, I -- someone told me or some other app I found -- was like for 17 seconds, if you can really stay in the vibration of that you are a millionaire, and I would do it, and then I'd do it daily and obsessively, and then I started giving money away.

Like, I really went all for it.

And I know this is a terrifyingly stupid thing if you don't believe in this.

Like, people listening are like, "What?"

But I would just give money to people.

I had no money, and I would give my money -- I would make $100 from a gig, and I would give $50 of it to a homeless person that I'd see or, like, I'd leave $20 in a tip jar when I had no money.

And it was that act of faith that money is an energy.

It is not what we think it is.

And that flipped my mind-set.

It still took years to make millions of dollars, but I haven't changed my mind-set.

I still believe that money works the same way.

So now, if I'm feeling a little bit of lack, which I did recently.

We bought a really expensive, beautiful house, and my husband and I were both like, "Ooh!

Shoot.

I'm not touring this year.

There's no touring right now.

Uh-oh.

Did we just overs--" And I realized I went into a little bit of a lack mind-set, and he was like, "Well, we can't get those hedges that you wanted," and it was just like privilege problems, but it was real for us.

I wanted these hedges.

>> Sure.

>> And I realized that I had reintroduced a fear around money again, and so I did a little meditation with myself to reintegrate that belief that money is an energy, and now, I imagine just, like, God or whatever you believe in, the divine, writing me a check, and so I just imagine the exact amount that I want.

What do you do?

>> It's fascinating I love this.

>> This is a fascinating thing that I've made up.

>> No, I think this -- There's a lot of similar things that I do as well, and I think people need to hear this because whether you believe it or not, I think it's important to have a mind-set around it, to be able to be open to attract it.

It doesn't mean it's gonna get checks in the mail the next day.

>> Mine didn't.

Mine took a couple years, yeah.

>> It doesn't mean it's all of a sudden gonna happen.

But it's not gonna happen if you're not thinking an abundant mind-set.

>> That's true.

>> If you're thinking scarcity all the time, why would money come to you?

A mentor of mine told me back in the day, when I was broke -- I was working for him as an intern.

I think I made $500 in six months.

I was working out of a closet in the kitchen, learning from this business, but I was happy to be there, and it was the agreement we made 'cause I had nothing and I was like, "Let me learn, and I'll do whatever."

And at one point, we did a walk around the neighborhood, probably six months in, and I'm like, "Man, I could really use some money.

I'm pretty broke."

>> Yeah.

>> And he goes, "Money comes to you when you're ready for it."

>> That's true.

>> And I was like, "I feel pretty ready for it right now.

I got to have some money right now."

And he was like -- >> "I'm ready, bro."

>> But he just kept reinforcing, like, money will come to you when you're ready for it emotionally, spiritually, mentally, physically.

And if you get money too soon, too much and you're not prepared, you're not ready, then you're going to blow it.

>> Yeah.

>> You're going to spend it the wrong way, you're going to abuse it, you know, you're going to become a bad person in the act of using money.

>> Yeah.

>> And so I think it's really important to have a great relationship around the idea of money before you have it.

>> Yes.

>> What would it be like to act knowing you were going to fail?

Because a lot of us don't act because of the fear of failure.

What if we acted knowing "This is going to fail miserably"?

>> Whoa!

>> So what would you do knowing it will fail miserably because you love it, you enjoy it, and accept that no one is going to care?

>> Dang!

>> It's going to fail.

Would you still want to do it?

>> Wow!

>> So many of us wait.

>> What a question.

>> I was talking to someone earlier today.

She's been wanting to write a script about a movie for 10 years.

And she hasn't been able to complete it.

>> 10 years?

>> 10 years, she's been like -- it's ruminating, thinking about it, wanting to get to it.

And I was like, "Why?"

And she was like, "The fear of failure but also the fear of success.

Like, what happens if it is successful and then I got to rise that occasion and stay there?"

It's like -- >> Did she say that?

She said the rise and stay there?

>> Yeah.

>> Wow.

>> It's kind of like -- It's kind of what happened to you.

You got successful, and then it's like you got to stay there.

>> Yeah.

>> Because people are going to think about us if we drop back down.

>> Yeah, you can't lose it.

How embarrassing is that?

Mm.

Wow!

>> I don't know where I was going with that, but -- >> No, it's such a good question.

I mean -- >> But it's like what's a song that you would write and put it out there knowing that no one cared?

>> [ Laughs ] >> But you care.

>> I think I would make a lot more spiritual music.

I think I would talk more about my relationship with God and not be afraid of how much -- how powerful -- I have a song that I just wrote called "Let Go, Let God," and in my mind, I'm never going to release it because, like -- >> Why?

>> I don't know, because... I-I don't know.

I feel like maybe I'd be judged for my -- >> You will.

Knowing you will be judged.

>> I will, and it might fail and probably will.

I mean -- >> But I just wonder.

>> I might think about that.

>> It's interesting.

>> I'm gonna go home and think about it.

I love it.

>> And maybe it's not a now thing.

Maybe it's a later thing, and maybe it's a never thing, but it's just something to think about.

>> Oh, no, no, no.

I mean, I'm gonna -- I'll probably release that song.

I'm gonna think about the question though, "What if it fails?"

Like, I think it's amazing.

That question is amazing and I want to examine it and understand what part of why I do this is because...

This all gets confusing, 'cause part of my soul is like, "No, you're here to expand and --" >> "Don't be great.

Don't change the world."

>> Influence not people in an ego way like I got caught up in but influence people to be their true selves.

>> Mm-hmm.

Spread your light.

>> And you have a purpose here.

Yes.

You have a massive light to share.

You've been given it because you are supposed to spread a massive amount of light in the world.

So part of me knows that has nothing to do with my ego.

>> Mm-hmm.

>> So it gets a little confusing in there.

>> I know.

>> I don't know.

>> It's like having confidence but stay humble.

>> Yeah.

>> It's like the balance of believing in yourself to be great but also not losing yourself in the greatness.

>> Not losing yourself and not -- Oh!

You know what?

Maybe it's not thinking that it's just you.

>> Ooh.

>> Like, knowing that it's -- >> Like, "This is me.

My stuff doesn't stink and it's all me."

>> It's not you.

It's the divine coming through you, no matter what you're doing and what you believe in.

It's source, it's the universal life, or it's chi, it's provenance, whatever we call it.

There's something -- I don't care who you are or what you've done.

You are tapping into that, whether you know it or not.

>> Yeah.

>> And it's thinking that you're separate from it or that it's you that's doing it.

That's when I think it turns from confidence to ego.

>> Ego, yeah.

>> Do you think so?

>> I agree 100%.

But I want you to ask you a final question.

Before I do, I want to acknowledge you, Rachel, for being an incredible guest.

>> I love this part.

>> I'm really -- I'm just a fan of you as a human being.

I'm really grateful for you.

You've been a great friend over I think three years since we've known each other.

Even though we're busy and have things going on, I just feel really connected to you and I appreciate you as a human being, and I'm grateful for you for sharing these things 'cause I think a lot of moms need to hear this and know that it's not easy and it's okay to give yourself grace.

>> Yeah.

>> So I really acknowledge you for constantly showing up and grateful you showed up here today and shared everything.

And hopefully we'll get you back on soon in the future when you do more fun things.

Imagine it's your last day on Earth many years from now.

You're as old as you want to be and you've accomplished every dream.

You've impacted the world, you got the family you want, you've got your kids grown up, everything.

But for whatever reason, you got to turn the lights off and go to the next place, wherever you go.

Your book, your music, this interview, everything that you've put out, it's got to go with you to the next place, but you get to leave behind three things you know to be true from your life, three lessons that you would share with the world that we would all have access to.

What would you say are those three truths for you?

>> One, that you are divine.

You come from someplace bigger.

You're going to go back to someplace bigger.

And, two, that everyone is divine, that you're connected to every other living thing on this planet and that you are never separate and you are never alone and that everything you do -- everything you do impacts everyone else.

>> Mm.

>> And, three, that our biggest responsibility with this gift of life is to answer that calling of what have you been gifted with to share with the world and what would you give the world if you weren't afraid that it would fail or be judged?

Give that.

Give that in the biggest possible way you can.

And don't compare that thing in you to anyone else's because yours is unique and yours is special and we need exactly what you have to give.

>> Mm.

Appreciate you.

>> I love you, buddy.

Oh, my God, it was so fun.

>> We hope you enjoyed this episode and found it valuable for your life.

Make sure to stay tuned for more from "The School of Greatness" coming soon on public television.

Again, I'm Lewis Howes, and if no one has told you lately, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.

And now it's time to go out there and do something great.

If you'd like to continue on the journey of greatness with me, please check out my website, lewishowes.com, where you'll find over 1,000 episodes of "The School of Greatness" show, as well as tools and resources to support you in living your best life.

>> The online course "Find Your Greatness" is available for $19.

Drawn from the lessons Lewis Howes shares in "The School of Greatness," this interactive course will guide you through a step-by-step process to discover your strengths, connect to your passion and purpose, and help create your own blueprint for greatness.

To order, go to lewishowes.com/tv.

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