[piano intro] - Hello, I'm Nido Qubein.

Welcome to Side by Side.

My guest today wears many hats.

She is an inventor, an entrepreneur, and a patent attorney specializing in intellectual property.

She is known worldwide for expertise, and she has worked with companies we all know.

Companies like Apple and Microsoft and VISA, and she calls North Carolina home.

So today we'll get to meet JiNan Glasgow George.

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[bright upbeat music] ♪ - JiNan you wrote a book called "The IP Miracle".

What is the IP Miracle?

- The IP Miracle is the fact that ideas are the one truly unlimited resource that everyone has.

It's a gift from God, right?

And so transforming ideas into reality is a little more complicated.

It takes work and action.

And as a patent attorney I help clients transform their ideas into assets that are useful in business that can attract investment, that can help the businesses grow, and ultimately be acquired, making impact commercially.

- Yeah, very interesting.

Give me an idea.

Give me an idea of a case study if you will.

- Oh, sure.

One client, and I love working with entrepreneurs and serial entrepreneurs.

One client who had sold a software company launched a second company that was security and surveillance technology.

They called me and said he thought he had something to patent.

As we reviewed it and did some research around it, putting context around it, we realized he probably needed more than 10 or 15 patents.

He launched a business with that.

Attracted venture capital investment and angel investment.

He used those assets to get strategic deals for his company, to attract board members, attract new software engineers and developers and ultimately financing, just based on the intellectual property assets and finally to be acquired.

So that's a typical profile for a client where we start with an idea and it transforms over time into a company, making commercial impact.

- It's the journey, isn't it?

It's a process.

- It is, it is.

And the way that people change over time as they do that, they invent more.

Because you can really only invent from what you know.

So the more that you read and see and invent, the more you can continue to invent and improve on things.

- What is the percentage of success for entrepreneurial ideas?

In other words, let's take 100 people who come to see you with an idea, how many of them really in the end can carry through the whole journey and can have an outcome that is equivalent to what they had hoped it would be?

- Sure that's a great question.

Most of the time, as you know, businesses fail.

Most of the time intellectual property assets don't make impact because the way they are crafted initially doesn't consider broader data, broader information.

So when we put that around it, what we have found with our clients is that we not only help them create quality assets, patents, trademarks, and copyrights, but we also connect them to the resources they need to make impact.

Sometimes that's capital, sometimes that's other companies, sometimes it's other people.

- Yeah.

So it's all about relational capital and the support system that goes with it.

So I see on television some of these ads about if you have an invention, call us please.

I never take those very seriously.

- Right.

There is a reason not to.

Almost no one gets any return on the investment they make for those type of companies.

In fact, the government of the US passed some legislation to say that they needed to disclose the success rate up front and it was pretty low.

Most of the time it's important to develop a relationship with an attorney who understands your technology.

We have a great team.

We do high tech to biotechnology, and have done this for a long time.

But the patent system itself has a lot of information in it and people can get started directly from the US Patent and Trademark Office.

- So most of your work is in technology or biomedical, is that what you said?

- We do actually everything from software, electronics, advanced materials, biomedical devices, we've done vaccines, we've done some biotechnology work as well.

- And so it's not, someone is not creating a new pair of scissors or something?

- Occasionally we have consumer products and we work with a lot of small companies usually for those types of things.

But what we tend to find is it's more about the unique value proposition, regardless of the industry or the market.

Again, everybody has ideas, solutions to problems, and that's what patents are.

They're inventive solutions to problems.

- And there is the patent process.

In other words, if someone has an idea, how did they know that somebody else had not already thought of the idea?

I guess that's the patent process, correct?

- It is.

Actually, it is.

And as a former examiner at the patent office, I learned firsthand how examiners research and analyze to discern is this application warranting a patent.

And so that type of research, what has come before?

Because most patents, most inventions are improvements on other things, it's combinations of known components that are unique and new.

So that data helps inform the question, is it patentable?

- JiNan, you're a fascinating person.

Your educational background, at first look inspires one to ask this question.

Undergraduate engineering, NC State, North Carolina State.

Law degree from the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill.

I think I get those two, maybe somehow they're related.

I don't understand the next one.

Duke University master of theological studies.

Is it because when you get a patent and you wanna pray, that it's gonna work out?

- I pray for my clients every day actually.

But no, I usually introduce myself as being a recovered engineer.

I had a first career in engineering, new product development.

So I was turning ideas into products in industrial setting.

And I decided to return to school, to study law, to become a patent attorney.

So having the engineering background plus law, they do seem obvious to go together.

As long as I was taking a break from my career, I thought, what else is really important to me?

What would I like to invest myself to study?

And I had always an interest in theology.

I was raised as a Christian, but one of my best friend from 10 years old, Hindu.

And so we always had conversations across religions and I wanted to study that.

And the discourse community was amazing.

The question I got asked the most was, so how are you gonna use that in your work?

And I thought I'll just live better and work better having it.

It was in that investment in myself that was most important.

- Yeah.

You were a congressional advisor.

Tell us about that.

- So began to do some advising on Capitol Hill about the role of intellectual property and entrepreneurship.

The combination actually creates more jobs in our nation than any other industry than large companies all combined.

So that's obviously very important in today's economy and always jobs creation and entrepreneurs and innovation caused that to happen most efficiently.

So we gave some insight about some unfair competition, obviously globally, not all nations respect intellectual property in the same way.

Perhaps I'll never forget hearing Margaret Thatcher speak at Wake Forest University School of Law in 2000 when the Hong Kong was going back to China.

The rule of law is so important in preserving property rights and enforcing intellectual properties.

So it's not the same globally.

So we did some advising on that as well.

- Well.

No, some people cheat.

They steal the rights and they sell goods and other things that they really don't have the right to do.

- Unfortunately, yes, it does happen.

But I would say there's also so much benefit that can come from the intellectual property systems globally.

Again, each patent is an inventive solution to a problem.

So that covers in the United States, the US Patent System, in Europe, the European Patent Office.

But in many emerging markets, hardly any companies or individuals file patents there.

So it creates kind of a free zone to use the research and development in the published system.

That was the point of the Patent System in the US to begin with.

So it's a source of solutions to problems in emerging markets that can really help transform those economies.

- And you spoke, you presented before the United nations.

What was that about, when was it?

And that has to be something very special for one to be able to do.

- It was.

For three years I served on an economic advisory group for the United Nations in Europe.

And it was on the same issue, the impact of innovation, intellectual property, and entrepreneurship for economic growth in any country.

It was a special time.

- So let's dig into that a little more.

The whole point about intellectual property.

So the term intellectual property or the miracle, the IP Miracle as you call it is the umbrella under which comes what?

Do copyrights come under intellectual property, for example, both copyrights, et cetera?

Do systems... We all know people have developed a system, a formula for success, for leadership, for doing this or that in a manufacturing process.

All of that comes under, just educate me about what does that umbrella have under it.

- Sure.

So intellectual property is just that it's an intangible asset.

It's property rights to exclude others and keep them out of what you think is your unique space, your zone, your unique value proposition.

- It can be tangible if I create a chair or I create some mechanism, that's a tangible thing.

- Sure.

The tangible thing is obviously a product that you've created, but the intellectual property rights around it let you enjoy the exclusive market for that product.

So it does cover copyrights, exclude others from copying the content of your creative work, your written work, your video.

Trademarks provide exclusive rights to keep others out of your brand space, out of your domain there.

So the Goodwill that you've built up in your product or in your service is protected by trademarks and service marks.

Patents cover useful things.

The functional aspect of the chair design, for example, or the functional aspects of computer software.

So they cover the systems, they cover software, they cover the thing, and even services can be covered by patents.

Design patents cover the ornamental or the aesthetic value of a thing.

And then of course, trade secrets.

Sometimes you have that intangible asset, that idea that you can keep secret and keep others away from it indefinitely.

So it is a kind of a miracle that you can create assets just from ideas.

- It's amazing.

Why is it that a title of a book cannot be copyrighted?

- Oh, it can be registered as a trademark, if it's your brand.

If I'm going to launch then a podcast show or something else on IP Miracle, I could register that as a trademark.

- But assuming next month, someone decides to write a book and call it the IP Miracle.

- If the content is the same, I have copyrights that will keep them out of the book.

- But the title itself.

- The title itself is a trademark.

The book cover, the look of it, and the content of that just as an artistic work can also be copyright.

- I see, I see.

Very interesting.

So if a person's listening to us right now and watching us right now and says, I have an idea, I'd like to turn it into a productive outcome.

What are the steps that person has to go through?

- The number one step is to write it down.

That is really when we-- - Get a clarity of vision and definition.

- Yes.

And just document it.

The ideas become reality when we speak them and write them.

But when you write it down, you can then have a sense of what is it exactly that I think is unique?

- What is distinctive about this.

- Exactly.

- Idea.

- That it can be researched and confirm the differentiation.

It's how different you are from anyone else.

And then you can take steps to secure those IP rights under the rules and the laws that govern them, whether it be copyright registration.

- So you do that before you actually create whatever it is, the fruition of the idea?

- Yes.

As long as you can, for example, with patents, describe it to someone of ordinary skill in that area, you could teach it to someone, that's enough to secure patent protection.

You don't actually have to have ever made it to keep others out of the space.

- But do you advise your clients, Hey, listen, don't put my and energy and effort and time trying to create this until you ensure that it can be patented.

Otherwise, you spend all the money and the time and energy, and then you only to find out, oh, somebody else already beat you to that.

- Right.

In my law practice, we actually also advise them to look at the market.

What is the opportunity?

Part of the conversation we have is, how will you use these assets to get a return on the investment-- - And who would value these assets?

- That's right.

So we do encourage them to have that market research, as well as the patent research or the research further.

- What are the two or three traits or characteristics or pieces of intrigue about an idea that lets you know, almost intuitively this has great potential?

And likewise, in reverse fashion, what are the two or three that as you listen or as you read what someone wrote down, you realize pretty quickly, intuitively, your gut feeling is this doesn't have much future?

- Sure.

Obviously I've seen a lot over the 23 years that I've been practicing and also have software that helps me to see a lot more data than just what I've been exposed to.

That's usually the first hint.

If I've heard of this already or I've seen it, then that's probably not going to be as likely to be valuable if it's even protectable.

But if it's something new, you should surprise me and my team.

We should be thinking, this is unique.

We've not seen that before.

And then we do research and check the context, is that correct?

So we might have a gut feeling, but to really be dispositive of whether or not something's protectable.

You have to look at data.

- So, so many professors who do a lot of research, especially in major institutions, come up with ideas that they patent.

I'm familiar, you're certainly familiar with many more than I am, but I'm familiar with some that have become multi-billion dollar companies out of an idea that a professor at an institution of higher learning thought about research came up with it.

And the application of which is so massive, is so universal that then the IPO or the company, they go public and all of a sudden it's worth a lot of money.

That's something that you've seen a lot.

- It is something that I've seen.

They don't usually IPO, most of the time-- - Venture capital.

- They're acquired.

- Private equity, et cetera.

- I mean, we have many great examples even in our state here, North Carolina.

You can look at SAS, the SAS Institute, which came out of the NC State University, initially.

Actually most patents that come out of universities, aren't licensed.

It's a very-- - Are not licensed.

- They're not, it's a very small percentage because normally they aren't connected to a market opportunity yet, they're just filed as patents.

So this connection to the market opportunity is imported-- - That's where the magic lies.

- Yeah That's where the miracle lies.

Yes, absolutely.

- Obviously.

I mean, that makes a lot of sense.

You can come up with a great idea and patent it, but if it doesn't have marketability, how are you gonna attract legal tender to-- - Exactly.

- To such an idea.

But there are some that have done, that I know of that have done very well.

Usually involves technology of some sort and some will get a venture capital, private equity to buy them or finance them.

And some I know of have in fact IPO then have done quite well.

It usually has a market product that has universal application.

Can you give us an idea of someone you've worked with that became a spectacular success?

You don't have to name the company or, but I mean, it's in the process of what happened there.

- Sure.

Even the story I mentioned at the outset.

To be able to take an idea, transform it to intellectual property and then build a company around it, takes a lot of time, energy and money and connections.

- And expertise.

- And expertise as well.

And it's not usually one person.

So in the case that I mentioned earlier, hiring a team around you, the technical team, you have to build it out.

The sales team.

They really have perhaps a different skillset than the inventor to run the business and to take it to that level.

So bringing a professional management team in, very often is key to having that success.

It's not instant.

At the beginning it's often the founders are the creators, the inventors.

But as the company grows, that very often needs to change.

And when it doesn't, that can very often be the reason for failure.

Absolutely.

- So what is one product, one application that you're so proud of that you said we help these people and men, they took this company to new heights of excellence.

- Sure.

One example is in the security surveillance space, Smart View Corporation out of Nashville.

That was a pure startup and then attracted capital and groom was acquired by a major corporation.

- And what do they do?

- They began making things, making video, surveillance equipment and recording devices that were wireless.

Now you see them everywhere, probably in the marketplace.

But they pivoted to data analytics.

So you have to continually reinvent on top of the original idea to grow and make that impact.

Another example is a client that we work with in the wireless measuring and monitoring space.

So they have technology to make sure that your mobile phones and all of the wireless communications are clear that there's not jamming or interruptions.

You're dropped call, that shouldn't be happening.

We work with other clients that are doing geo-fencing technology that can be applied for autonomous vehicles, for example, or for automatically enforcing privacy rules with digital devices.

- These are big things you're talking about.

- Pretty amazing.

Electrical power grid technology that we've worked with, biomedical devices.

It goes on and on.

- So if someone is going to college, a young person going to college and they have intense interest in entrepreneurship and someday maybe they create something and patent it and take it to market.

Maybe they wanna start a business, not necessarily for that purpose, but just have a business.

What are some of the specialty skills or mindsets that you say to that person?

You be sure you take these kind of courses or hang around these kind of people or attend these kind of symposia or do this kind of experiential learning so that you can prepare yourself adequately and well for such success.

What would that advice be?

- Sure.

I mean, for most of them, they already have a creative courage.

They're trying something new that is perhaps never been done before anywhere and certainly it's new to them.

So for a student, and I love working with universities students who are interested in entrepreneurship.

Yes they have an idea, for them to research it, to understand this market opportunity and to learn about the evaluation of creating assets, it's expensive to file patent trademark and create these assets.

So will they get a return on that?

We like to connect them with resources so they can be proactive, curious, and creative.

They certainly should understand finance and accounting.

The financial side of it.

They should certainly understand how to present, public speaking or at least doing a pitch to investors.

They should also understand the collaboration.

How do they manage teams?

So those courses or classes that involve leading a project with a team certainly would contribute to that success.

- That's incredibly helpful advice.

Because what you're talking about is holistic education.

It doesn't matter what you major in.

You have to develop that mindset.

And that mindset is the byproduct of all these ingredients that when they combined together make for possibilities.

The order the possible doesn't come to you just 'cause you're motivated, comes to you because you really have perfected set skills.

I like to tell students and others that you don't have the right to be confident until you are competent.

And you have to be competent in those disciplines that will lead you to do something worthwhile in life.

And sometimes higher education as you well know, is not as pragmatic and practical life skills.

Somebody calls them soft skills.

I call them life skills.

Life skills have to do with what you just said.

You have to understand these disciplines to be good at all of it.

You're a fascinating person.

- Thank you.

- And you speak with such clarity about a subject that for many, it could be somewhat complicated.

We don't have the capacity sometimes to understand everything that you talk about, but because we're not equipped with it, we don't have the experience you've had.

We haven't presented to the United Nations, or we have not been a congressional advisor.

I know you write for Forbes and other journals as well.

So what is next for JiNan?

- Thank you.

I love the work that I'm doing.

I could imagine practicing law for many more years, perhaps even decades because it's new everyday.

- But you more than practicing law.

- That's true.

- You're a business consultant and you're research expert.

You are a technician of IP, Intellectual Property, but so much more, law is just, it is one of the elements.

- It is an underpinning.

And part of what I have begun doing already is to become at very active as an investor in early stage companies.

- In the companies that come to you or others?

- In other companies as well.

But it's great to be able to look at the IP and shape it, meet the management team, looking at all the things that venture capitalists do.

I'm actually a limited partner in 2 Funds, but I am interested perhaps in continuing to grow the activity of investment.

And also, as you mentioned, translating this IP Miracle concept to people who aren't practicing law.

You don't have to be a lawyer if you know one.

But I think being able to get that word out, that message out.

I am launching a podcast very soon, in the next month, that will be this creative courage and about the IP Miracle concept.

So that's part of the work that I want continue to do, and also to inspire the next generation of entrepreneurs, the students.

- That's really key, isn't it, for the future of America and the world.

JiNan, thank you so much for being with us today and good luck in all your aspirational work in life and in business.

- Thank you.

It's a pleasure.

[upbeat music] - [Male Narrator] Funding for Side by Side with Nido Qubein is made possible by.

- [Female Narrator] Here's to those that rise and shine to friendly faces, doing more than their part and to those whose still enjoy the little things.

You make it feel like home.

Ashley HomeStore, this is home.

- [Female Narrator] For over 60 years, the everyday leaders at the Budd Group have been committed to providing smart, customized facility solutions to our clients and caring for the communities we serve.

[soft music] - [Male Narrator] Coca-Cola Consolidated is honored to make and serve 300 brands and flavors locally.

Thanks to our teammates.

We are Coca-Cola Consolidated, your local bottler.