- By The River is brought to you in part by, the University of South Carolina Beaufort, learning in action discovered, The ETV Endowment of South Carolina, Community Foundation of the Low Country strengthening community, Osher Lifelong Learning Institute at USCB, the Pat Conroy Literary Center.

- Lawyer, mother, outdoors person, and author, Jo Hackl uses all of her passions to contribute to the literary world.

Her debut novel 'Smack Dab in the Middle of Maybe' is a touching coming of age novel that mixes Southern dialect, woods craft, puzzle solving and art.

I'm Holly Jackson.

Join us as we bring you powerful stories from both new and established Southern authors as we sit by the river.

♪ (upbeat music) ♪ ♪ - Hi, it's such a beautiful day here in our waterfront studio in Beaufort.

Thank you so much for joining us.

I'm Holly Jackson.

This is our love letter to Southern writing, and we're going to bring you powerful stories from both new and established authors from South Carolina and other Southern states.

Today is certainly no exception.

We are here with the author of 'Smack Dab in the Middle of Maybe', and that is author Jo Hackl.

Jo, thank you so much for joining us.

It's such a pleasure to have you here on season four By the River.

- I'm thrilled to be here.

I love your show.

- Thank you, and I don't know if it was on purpose.

I'm going to say maybe, but you match the book.

- It was on purpose.

- [Holly] I love it.

- These were pretty colors, you should wear them.

- [Holly] Very nice.

You know, you can't tell a book by its cover.

My mom always told me, but this one looks pretty beautiful.

So I really liked the way it looks.

Let's let's back up a little bit.

Tell us a little bit about yourself, who you are, where you came from and all that good stuff.

- Sure.

So I grew up actually well, I was born on the coast near where my favorite artist was born, but I grew up in a real life ghost town, in rural Mississippi.

I, it was so far out in the country, that in the entire county, we only had one stoplight and it didn't really work.

We just kind of kept it out of pride.

We only got three channels.

One of them was public television.

And so public television was an enormous part of my childhood.

- [Holly] Love to hear that.

- And so that is why one of the many reasons why it's such a pleasure to be with you all today.

- And when did the, the writing begin?

- You know, I think every southerner has a little bit of writing in them, so, you know, we all hear up, grow up, listening to great stories.

So, so I definitely absorbed that.

And then I had wonderful teachers and wonderful parents who encouraged me along the way to write, write, write.

And so it was always something that I wanted to do.

- Yeah.

We like to talk about that process from very start to the end.

And I'm not talking about whenever you started this book, but do you remember at what age you thought, I want to write a book or what if I wrote a book?

Do you remember when that started?

- It was fourth grade.

So I had a wonderful teacher, Mrs. Bullard who encouraged us to write, we were mainly writing poems, but also some short stories.

And then she, this was back in the days of mimeographing.

So she mimeographed all of the things that we'd written and collected them together in a beautiful book that we then brought home to our parents and grandparents and family friends.

And it was such a feeling just to see one's work in print and also to be taken seriously as a writer because she edited our work and she gave us feedback that helped us take our writing to the next level.

- You know, this is season four, so we're entering our fourth year of this.

And one thing that I have found as a constant is that school teachers are always brought up and it's usually around that third, fourth, fifth grade level.

- [Jo] Yes.

- And let's give a shout out to those teachers for a second, - [Jo] Yes.

- Because I don't think they realize just the great impact that they have on our futures.

- Absolutely.

- [Holly] It was that confidence that that teacher gave you way back then and here we are now with this book.

- Yes we are.

- [Holly] All right.

So tell us a little bit about Cricket, who is Cricket and how are you maybe a little like Cricket?

- [Jo] Well, Cricket is a 12 year old girl whose father sadly has died.

And mother has seen this mysterious and magical room called the bird room.

And she's been off looking her whole life to try and find it.

And Cricket believes that she's found a clue trail left by a very eccentric artist, and if she can solve it, she can find the bird room, prove that it's true and real to her mother and get her mother to come back and stay back for good.

So Cricket runs away to live in a ghost town.

That's very much like the real ghost town where I grew up.

Cricket's family dynamic is entirely fictional, but Cricket is based a lot on our children and also quite a bit on me at that age.

And that when I got to a point in the story, when I thought, well, what would Cricket do?

I would just think about what I would do and think about what my daughters would do and kind of have that answer if we were in that situation.

- So you based it on this town that you grew up in, have you through the book, maybe your research, or even publishing the book, been able to connect with some people that maybe you hadn't seen in years or, you know, just kind of has sort of some sort of reunion with that town?

- Absolutely.

So I went away to college at 16 and then law school.

So I was, left, you know, pretty early and so researching for the book and then having the book come out was a wonderful opportunity to reconnect with some people that I hadn't seen in years.

You know, social media is a wonderful thing.

I'd stayed in touch with a number of them, but new connections were formed.

And another wonderful teacher was my math teacher, Mr. Briggs.

And I just snuck a little piece of snippet and shout out to his store in the book.

And so that was fun to do too.

- [Holly] Let's talk about the research process.

- [Jo] Okay.

- From my research on your research, if you can follow that, it seems like it was very intense.

You did a lot, and you really wanted to make sure that you got the facts, right.

And even, you know, placing, placing yourself a little more south because of the way things did with nature.

So tell me a little bit about that why you were, why you were so, you know, concerned about getting those things right.

And then let's also talk about the things you might've gotten wrong and who discovered those.

- So I think wanting to get everything right, I guess just comes maybe from being a lawyer in that, you know, if my name's going to be on it, I want it to be absolutely well researched and as right as it can possibly be.

And then also as a writer, when, when readers open the pages of that book, I want for them to feel as though they are stepping into that ghost town, they are solving that clue trail right along with the main character.

And so I had to make it come alive and the way to do that was to immerse myself in the world of the character.

So I actually camped out in a tree house in the woods very much like the one that Cricket lives in, I took tons of classes on outdoor survival.

I learned how to start a fire from scratch.

And you can read about one of the ways in the book called fire out of water.

I learned how to make shelter, how to make water safe to drink, all, what plants to look for that you could eat, what plants you could use for medicine, and what plants you better stay away from, cause they get flat out and kill you.

And it was, it was kind of a combination of my outdoor adventure and my nerd side.

Cause I was connecting, collecting facts that would many of which would ultimately end up in the book.

But I also got to, you know, go do a lot of research about different elements as I was, you know, figuring out, okay, which ones can I put in the book and which would make sense in the clue trail.

- I love your website because you have so many stories on there that made you want to stop and say, - [Jo] Oh, thank you.

- But wait, that's, that's kind of another story and another story, but anyway, what I really liked was you said where I fudged.

- [Jo] Right.

- So you listed a few things that you know, we're, we're maybe not the truth or whatever.

- [Jo] Right.

- So tell me, did you want to just go ahead and lay it out there?

Or are there some readers who discovered that and called you out on it?

- Actually, I wanted to just go ahead and lay it out there because there were a few decisions that I had to make to serve the story that weren't actually quite accurate.

The season would be a little bit off and I'd taken very detailed logs, like what was blooming, what was smelling, you know, it every day by day in that climate.

So I was like, I don't want to get called out on that.

- [Holly] Right.

- So I just put it all out there.

But the reason that I put it on the website as opposed to the book is that if I hear from a reader, oh, well you didn't, you, you know, you forgot to mention this or you got this a little bit wrong.

It's very easy to, - You can just add it, right.

- [Jo] Add it to the website.

- Call for, hey, did you notice something else?

And it must be kind of flattering to know that someone's paying deep attention.

- [Jo] Yes.

- So they might discover that.

I want to ask you about your support system with your family.

I'm just wondering, you know, oh, where's mom, she's out camping on the, the tree house again, are they very supportive of this?

Or if they just said, you know, mom's at of it again.

- I have the, such a wonderfully supportive family.

That, I, so I, I dedicated the book to them and not, and my immediate family and my extended family.

So I'm incredibly fortunate.

And as a matter of fact, two of our three children went on outdoor training adventures with me.

So we would go take classes on like foraging and building fires and building bows, all that sort of thing to, to try and make the book realistic.

But they at least told me that they had a really good time.

- [Holly] If they kept doing it, I imagine, - Yes.

- [Holly] So your target audience, what were you intending for this age range to be and what has it become?

- I always wanted to have a book with layers that readers of a variety of levels could find something that they responded to.

And it's really worked out well.

It's Random House targeted primarily for young readers, but about half of the readers that I've heard from have been adults.

And a lot of the, my adult friends who I think read it just to sort of be nice to Jo were pleasantly surprised and some said, it's really good, but you know, they didn't think that they would like what they thought was - [Holly] Right.

- A children's book, but there, there are layers for, for everyone.

- So with it being a children's book, how you intended it, for it to be, with your first draft, who, who's the lucky person who gets to put the first eyes on it, is there a certain person whose opinion you deeply trust?

- Well, of course my family.

And then I'm really lucky to live in Greenville where we have a wonderful community of writers.

And this book actually began in the brilliant Ashley Worlock's writing class.

So I worked with her in doing the first draft and always value any insights that she has.

And then I'm part of a writer's group as well, and then have other folks, other writer, friends that if I were to get stuck on something, I could always reach out, out to brainstorm with.

- Tell me how you connect with some of these classrooms.

I've noticed some online where you're answering questions to certain elementary schools.

How is that a partnership that you have with a certain district?

Or how does that go and tell me what the experience is like working with the children.

- I love it.

So we talked a little bit about this earlier.

I am on a mission to get books in the hands of children in need, and also to inspire them about the power of writing to change your life because I'm a first-generation college student and writing literally changed my life.

It took me from this tiny little ghost town where I was got me scholarships to Millsaps and then Yale law school, all with writing.

So I want to share with students the power of the pen.

So if we can find a source to donate books to children in need in the, the school I always want for children, if possible, to have their own copy of the book, then I'll go for free and, you know, speak all day and do workshops on writing and revision, the power poetry, just really whatever they're interested in and to try and get students excited about that power of writing and their written, and the joy of the written word.

And it has been just such a pleasure to connect with these students and I've done it now, virtually all over the country and into Canada.

- You know, we were speaking earlier about here to season four.

And once again, we're talking about this COVID era.

And it's really changed the way that authors do business.

And it's, it's really opened up some things for you that maybe you hadn't expected, especially like virtually with the kids.

I mean, teachers are having to get really creative and things.

So tell me how that era, this era that we're still in has, has changed your way as far as writing and promotion.

- Well writing, I've always had a deep appreciation of nature and as you can tell by all my research, so I think I've enjoyed my garden more this year than ever.

And it's whenever I get stuck on anything, you're just taking a walk in the woods, is such a great way to just kind of let your mind wander.

And then, you know, then that idea strikes.

And then on the promotion side it's, and the connection with readers, it's really been nice to do a lot of virtual visits because I'm able to reach many more readers in a day.

Than, you know, I could do if I were traveling throughout the country.

- [Holly] From start to finish on this book, how long?

- All right, I want to tell you, but I do not want your readers to get scared because it was 10 years.

- [Holly] 10 years, wow.

- [Jo] But I was, I was working, - [Holly] You were talking about Cricket around the house for 10 years.

- [Jo] 10 Years.

Well, that's from start till the book coming out.

- [Holly] Okay.

- So, so, and you know, to tell somebody, particularly, you know, when people see you as a lawyer that you're writing a book, it sounds sort of like a crazy thing to do.

And I had to kind of get brave after a couple of years and finally admit that I was doing it, but unanimously, my colleagues at YH have been incredibly supportive and they're, they all have their own creative endeavors that inspire me.

So that, that has been wonderful.

And I think it's been somewhat of a good model for our children because they saw mom try to do something that there was no guarantee whatsoever that it would ever turn into a published book.

- [Holly] Right.

- But they saw me try and try and try and work and, and, - [Holly] It happened.

- You know, finally celebrate this success.

- [Holly] That's great.

Here's one thing kind of going off on a tangent.

But one thing that I love about this book as, as I'm reading, you know, it's one of those that I stop and I say, I love that word.

- [Jo] Oh, thank you.

- Because you have a lot of fun words like skedaddled, what a fun word, a lot of words than I realized I haven't heard in awhile.

So tell me about the fun title and how that came to be.

- So, having worked on the book for so long when I got the call from my agent that Random House wanted to buy it, they wanted to go out with an announcement and they said, and we'd like to change the name.

And for years I had thought that the book would be called Cricket for the main character.

I was like, oh, that, but being the writer that I am, I had brainstormed other potential titles.

And so I pulled out my list and we went through over 150 different combinations and we wanted something that sounded a little bit Southern.

So we've got the smack dab, had some alliteration, middle of maybe, and had a sense of mystery and I think of possibility.

And so that's where the maybe came from.

And now I love the title and I'm really glad that, that it all worked out that way.

- [Holly] It is a fun title, but was it, was it tough letting go after you had been so connected to that first title?

- [Jo] It was tough for a couple of weeks.

I will say that, but you know, I think writing, learning to embrace the creative processes, kind of learning to take risks and to be willing to say, all right, I'll try it.

- [Holly] Right.

Tell me what's next.

- [Jo] Well I'm at work right now on another book.

It's also a combination of an outdoor adventure, and an art mystery clue trail.

This one's set in the Carolinas, but with another very strong Mississippi connection, I won't tell you what artist, but it's to another very mysterious Mississippi artist.

- Now what about Cricket?

Are we done with Cricket?

- I don't think so.

I was visiting virtually last week with a group of students from Canada.

And I'd been kind of puzzling around in my mind, like how would I go about doing a sequel, and a student came up, at, in through the course of asking you a question with a brilliant idea for how to do it.

And so like, - [Holly] Like, wait a minute let me get my pen.

- Tell, please tell me your name young man, cause I will put you in that author's acknowledgement.

- [Holly] Yes, oh, how special - Yeah, so that was great.

- Wouldn't that be neat?

Well, how do you spend your time right now?

- [Jo] So combination of, I'm still a lawyer, and writing and then, doing virtual events with students.

And then I also have been doing a lot of work creating free resources for students and educators, you know, because writing was so much of a part of me growing up.

I wanted to provide tools for students who may not have had the opportunity to have a Mrs.Bullard or Mr. Briggs.

I very, very much hope that they do to, to help them take their writing to the next level.

- [Holly] Do you have a certain time of day, or a certain place you go, or a certain style you use be it pen and paper?

What is your writing process like.

- For first drafts?

I really do like quiet or nature sounds in the background.

And I pretty much liked to work at my desk in my study, but for revision I can revise anywhere.

And so a lot of smack-dab was, the revisions were done in the carpool line, waiting on children.

- [Holly] Oh my goodness, I love that.

- If I had two minutes, three minutes, four minutes, you know.

- [Holly] Right.

You can just pick it up and let it go - Yes - [Holly] And pick it right back up.

- Yes.

- [Holly] What a gift, that's a real gift.

- And I love revision, because revision is really, the keys into, on the analytical side.

So you get to look at your work objectively and look for ways to make it better.

- [Holly] Now, are you still involved in these sorts of writing group and collaborating with different writers?

- [Jo] I still collaborate with a number of folks, COVID has kind of slowed, - Sure.

- Has really stopped our physical meetings, but, but yes, we're still very much in touch and cheer each other on, which is fun.

- [Holly] So back to your website, kudos to you and whoever is helping you do that, - Oh, thank you.

- [Holly] Because it's totally great.

I love all the information on there and a lot of fun facts about you and, locked in a library twice.

- Yes.

- [Holly] Was the book that good?

- Well, what was, the just circumstances is really, for both of them, I was doing a 4H class in the library and there was a book that really was that good.

And I looked up and I was locked in the library, so yeah.

- [Holly] Oh my gosh.

You know, they make movies about this kind of stuff.

- Well, and that was actually the inspiration for the getting locked in the grocery store scene at the beginning of the book.

Is that sense of like coming out of, you know, when you're really focused on something and realizing, uh oh.

- [Holly] Right.

We're in trouble.

- It's just me.

- [Holly] Yeah.

- And, and so I, I kind of channeled a little bit of that in writing that scene.

And then the second time I was studying in college.

- [Holly] Very fun.

Okay.

So, you know, you've seen this, you've seen By the River before, I know, and we appreciate you watching it.

And always at the end, we talk to mainly the college age, because this is a partnership that we have with the university of South Carolina Beaufort, and their students help with this show.

And so, you know, we, we like to talk about just kind of some inspiration for them.

We're going to change it up a little bit for you since you're kinda more of that fourth grade-ish age range.

So tell me some kind of words of wisdom that you would give that audience right now, if they were watching.

- [Jo] You know, honestly, the, the advice that I would give to the fourth grade audience is pretty much the same advice that I would give, that I, you know, when I speak to college groups and, and adult groups, because fourth graders are so smart and on their game, I mean, if you, you know, say something that isn't quite right, they will catch it.

And that's why I love writing, you know, a book that targets them because they'll catch it.

So the advice that I would give them is give yourself permission, as many writers say, to get that really bad first draft down.

And then edit, you know, line by line by line, really focused on making sure that each word is the best choice.

And then also think about ways to use some of the poetic techniques, consonance, assonance, repetition, and rhythm.

And I greatly admire Southern writers whose writing is so lyrical.

And, and so I, I love to tell readers if you really want to make your work connect with readers on a, on a subconscious level, think about the sounds of your words.

Some of those, you know, those, you know, those techniques that poets use.

Think about how long your sentences are.

So if you're writing a tense scene, you're going to have, you know, short sentences and they might end with kind of hard T and N sounds, whereas if you're writing a more contemplative scene, you might have longer O's and S's.

And so when you're, you know, going back through maybe the fourth or the fifth or the sixth time, think about how the words and the sounds of those words are going to be affecting your reader emotionally.

And you can really create a scene that's impactful for the reader, without the reader even, perhaps realizing why it sounds, why it connects in that way.

- [Holly] Right.

- And I think we, as southerners, you were surrounded by wonderful, colorful and lyrical speech.

So I just pay attention and write stuff down.

- [Holly] Right, because a lot of times we're doing that, but I don't exactly realize what we're doing.

So, that's, that's, that's a gift in itself.

Well, thank you so much for joining us.

Been a real pleasure.

- Thank you.

- Time flies when you're having fun, - [Jo] It does.

- And this has been a real treat, so thank you so much for coming to us.

And everybody, thank you for joining us for By the River.

You're watching season four and it really is a pleasure to have you on board with us.

We're going to leave you now with a little bit of our poets corner.

This is our low country poet's corner, and it is featuring artwork from Southern artists.

I'm Holly Jackson.

Thanks so much for watching By the River.

- The Fruit Archive.

Inheritance, is the incorrect word for the righteous pulse, that stutters.

When I learn of this history, how the story spills teeth on asphalt.

Each document in the Fruit Archive is a red soaked landscape.

A forget-compass leaving bruises on the map, under every map, a new map - secret.

As joy and ancient as erosion.

Marble faces with age-busted visage, like stolen territory etched with opulent monuments to a forgotten resistance.

I find two brilliant pebbles speckled with blood, evidence that someone once was alive, carving desires into stone.

Stone shelves, worn, chipped, like a brick thrown back.

In the fruit archive, the water rises.

Brief flood, swelling tomes into indecipherable violence.

River urgent end of a heterosexual reign.

Rain seeps through the ceiling of the Fruit Archive, riot of seeds splitting open easy as a skull.

The dirt is blood wet and blooming rage, and here even drowning in what is never said aloud, I find a worthy inheritance.

- The sun was slanting at a slower, a height faster.

The path ended at the rickety narrow foot bridge.

The water was running hot.

Already, it had rotted out two boards and the rest were so loose, they might not be there tomorrow.

Still, it was the only way.

Tucking Charlene close, I crawled across the side of the board, my foot hit the bank, and Charlene let out of chirp.

She knew it too.

We were on the other side now.

- By the River is brought to you in part by the University of South Carolina Beaufort, learning in action, discovered, the ETV endowment of South Carolina, Community Foundation of the Low Country, strengthening community, Osher Lifelong Learning Institute, at USCB, the Pat Conroy Literary Center.