>> JOE DONNELLY TO THE VATICAN.

ENFORCING BIDEN'S VACCINE MANDATE.

PLUS, A WORRISOME EMPLOYER SURVEY AND MORE ON INDIANA WEEK IN REVIEW FOR THE WEEK ENDING OCTOBER 15TH, 2021.

>> "INDIANA WEEK IN REVIEW" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE SUPPORTERS OF INDIANA PUBLIC BROADCASTING STATIONS AND BY ICEMILLER, A FULL SERVICE LAW FIRM COMMITTED TO HELPING CLIENTS BUILD, GROW AND PROTECT THEIR INTERESTS.

MORE AT ICEMILLER.COM.

>> THIS WEEK, ANOTHER HOOSIER IS JOINING THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

THE PRESIDENT RECENTLY NOMINATED FORMER INDIANA U.S.

SENATOR JOE DONNELLY TO BE AMBASSADOR TO THE VATICAN.

DONNELLY, LIKE BIDEN, A CATHOLIC, HAD CAMPAIGNED FOR THE PRESIDENT AS PART OF A GROUP CALLED "CATHOLICS FOR BIDEN," WRITING AN OP-ED LAST YEAR TALKING ABOUT THEIR SHARED FAITH TRADITION.

THE HOOSIER DEMOCRAT SERVED THREE TERMS IN THE U-S HOUSE BEFORE WINNING THE RACE TO REPLACE U.S.

SENATOR RICHARD LUGAR IN 2012.

HE LOST HIS RE-ELECTION BID IN 2018 TO NOW SENATOR MIKE BRAUN.

HIS APPOINTMENT AS AMBASSADOR TO THE HOLY SEE MUST BE CONFIRMED BY THE SENATE.

WHAT DOES THIS MEAN FOR DONNELLY'S POLITICAL FUTURE?

IT'S THE FIRST QUESTION FOR OUR INDIANA WEEK IN REVIEW PANEL: DEMOCRAT ANN DELANEY REPUBLICAN MIKE O'BRIEN JON SCHWANTES, HOST OF INDIANA LAWMAKERS AND NIKI KELLY, STATEHOUSE REPORTER FOR THE FORT WAYNE JOURNAL GAZETTE.

I'M INDIANA PUBLIC BROADCASTING STATEHOUSE REPORTER BRANDON SMITH.

MIKE O'BRIEN, DONNELLY HAS BEEN MENTIONED AS A POTENTIAL GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE IN 2024.

DOES THIS IN ANY WAY CHANGE THAT TRAJECTORY?

>> IT'S UP TO HIM.

THIS ISN'T LIKE BEING APPOINTED AMBASSADOR TO SINGAPORE, SOME JOB WHERE YOU'RE AMBASSADOR TO A COUNTRY, WHICH IS CERTAINLY IMPORTANT.

THIS JUST FEELS DIFFERENT.

THIS IS KIN KIND OF AT ANOTHER LEVEL, ESPECIALLY IF YOU'RE A CATHOLIC LIKE JOE DONNELLY IS, IT SEEMS LIKE BEING A LIAISON BETWEEN THE UNITED STTES AND THE VATICAN IS A JOB YOU DON'T STEP AWAY FROM UNTIL YOU'RE MAYBE FORCED TO IN 2025.

THERE HAVE BEEN RUMORS THIS WEEK, IT'S KIND OF GOT OUT, THAT THIS IS THE JOB THAT NANCY PELOSI ALSO WANTED, MAYBE PLANNING TO RETIRE NEXT YEAR, SO MAYBE HE'S KEEPING THE SEAT WARM FOR HER FOR ABOUT A YEAR AND A HALF.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE TIMELINE, HE WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN IN THE JOB VERY LONG.

BY THE TIME IT WOULD BECOME TIME FOR HIM TO BEGIN A REAL RACE FOR GOVERNOR, WHICH IS NORMALLY KIND OF THE SUMMER OF THE YEAR BEFORE THE ELECTION.

IF HE ONLY SPENDS MAYBE A YEAR, 18 MONTHS IN THAT JOB, THAT'S KIND OF WHAT HE'S LOOKING AT, IF HE WANTS TO PIVOT THAT AND RUN FOR STATEWIDE OFFICE IN INDIANA.

>> AD, IF YOU WERE EXPECTING JOE DONNELLY TO RUN FOR GOVERNOR IN 2024, DOES THIS STEP MAKE SENSE FOR THAT, ANN DELANEY?

>> IT MAKES GREAT SENSE FOR HIM.

HE'S GOING TO BE AN AMBASSADOR NOW, AND YOU CAN TRY TO MINIMIZE THE APPOINTMENT AS MUCH AS YOU WANT, MIKE, BUT IT'S A VERY -- >> I SAID IT'S LIKE A -- >> WELL, YOU SAID IT WASN'T A REAL AMBASSADORSHIP.

>> NO, NO, YOU COMPLETELY MISUNDERSTOOD ME.

I SAID IF YOU'RE AMBASSADOR TO ANOTHER COUNTRY, THAT SEEMS MINOR COMPARED TO BEING THE AMBASSADOR TO THE VATICAN.

THAT SEEMS LIKE -- >> OKAY, I MISSED THAT POINT YOU MADE.

>> THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I SAID.

I JUST REPEATED MYSELF.

>> OKAY, OKAY, I STAND CORRECTED.

BUT WHAT I'M SAYING IS THAT THIS CERTAINLY ENHANCES HIS PRESTIGE AND IT ENHANCES HIS CONTACTS ACROSS THE BOARD AND IT WOULD NO HURT HIM, SHOULD HE DECIDE TO SEEK ELECTION, IT CERTAINLY DIDN'T HURT DAN COATS SERVING AS AMBASSADOR TO GERMANY BRIEFLY BEFORE RUNNING AGAIN FOR THE SENATE, SO I DON'T THINK THE LENGTH OF HIS TENURE THERE MATTERS AT ALL.

I THINK THE FACT HE WAS SELECTED BY THE PRESIDENT FOR THIS VERY PRESTIGIOUS POSITION AND THE FACT HE'S GOING TO MEET PEOPLE FROM ALL AROUND THE COUNTRY AS A RESULT OF THIS JOB WOULD MAKE IT EASIER CERTAINLY FROM A FUNDRAISING PERSPECTIVE FOR HIM TO DECIDE TO SEEK STATEWIDE OFFICE.

SO IT'S A VERY BIG HONOR, IT'S WELL DESERVED, AND WE HAD TWO INDIANA CANDIDATES.

WE HAD PROFESSOR LU IN THE MIX AS ONE OF THE FINALISTS FOR THIS TOO, AND I THINK THAT REFLECTS VERY WELL ON INDIANA.

>> NIKI KELLY, TO THAT POINT, DOES BECOMING AMBASSADOR TO THE VATICAN HELP THE CASE FOR JOE DONNELLY SHOULD HE RUN FOR GOVERNOR IN A FEW YEARS?

>> I MEAN, IT CERTAINLY DOESN'T HURT IT.

ANY EXPERIENCE IN GOVERNMENT OR DIPLOMATIC RELATIONS OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT IS HELPFUL.

AND I THINK HONESTLY WHEN A LOT OF PEOPLE TAKE THESE SORT OF POSTS, WHETHER AMBASSADOR OR A CABINET SECRETARY, THEY GET ONE TO TWO-YEAR COMMITMENTS SO I DON'T SEE THE PROBLEM WITH TWO YEARS AND THEN SHIFTING TO THAT.

IN FACT, IT KIND OF -- IT GETS HIM -- HE'S STILL IN PLAY BUT HE'S ALSO NOT IN A POSITION THAT WOULD INVOLVE A LOT OF CONTROVERSY OR SCANDAL OR ANYTHING THAT WOULD, I GUESS, BRING NEGATIVE ATTENTION TO HIM.

SO I DON'T SEE ANYTHING ABOUT THE POST THAT WOULD STOP A GUBERNATORIAL RUN IN 2024.

>> TO THAT LAST POINT, I GENERALLY AGREE WITH NIKI ON THAT, WHICH IS IT SEEMS LIKE AMBASSADOR TO THE VATICAN WOULDN'T BRING THE KIND OF CONTROVERSY YOU SOMETIMES SEE WITH OTHER AMBASSADORSHIPS BECAUSE OF THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND OTHER COUNTRIES, BUT JON SCHWANTES, DOES THIS PARTICULAR POST TAKE ON EVEN MORE IMPORTANCE WHEN YOU CONSIDE HE WOULD BE SERVING AS AMBASSADOR TO THE VATICAN, THE HEAD OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, UNDER A CATHOLIC PRESIDENT?

>> WELL THAT, REQUIRES A LOT OF CONNECTING THE DOTS WITH THAT ANALYSIS.

I DON'T THINK VOTERS OR FUNDERS REALLY THINK ABOUT IT NECESSARILY IN THAT WAY.

I THINK AS EVERYONE HAS SAID, IT'S A GREAT JOB, PARTICULARLY FOR HIM, HE WAS ACTIVE IN RALLYING CATHOLICS, CATHOLIC VOTERS FOR JOE BIDEN, THIS IS A REAL GREAT REWARD FOR HIM, AND THERE'S NO DOWNSIDE POLITICALLY, I DON'T THINK, BECAUSE OF THE CONTACTS, BECAUSE OF THE LACK OF CONTROVERSY, UNLIKE SOME OF OUR FOREIGN SERVICE, SOME OF OUR AMBASSADORS, HE DOESN'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT NECESSARILY HIGH LEVEL ESPIONAGE OR HAVANA SYNDROME, NOBODY PRESUMABLY FROM THE VATICAN IS BEAMING MICROWAVES INTO HIS OFFICE, SO THERE'S NO DOWNSIDE.

I REALLY DON'T SEE A DOWNSIDE, ONLY UP, AND EVEN IF HE WANTED TO HOLD IT FOR SIX MONTHS, I DON'T THINK -- AND THEN DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT, NO ONE IS GOING TO SAY, AHA, YOU DIDN'T SHOW COMMITMENT TO THAT JOB.

I DON'T SEE A DOWNSIDE.

>> ALL RIGHT.

>> TO THE POINT -- TO THAT POINT REAL QUICK OF CONTROVERSY, IT OCCURS TO ME THAT THERE HAS BEEN, IT'S BEEN REPORTED THIS WEEK, THIS DISCONNECT BETWEEN BIDEN AND THE VATICAN ON THE ISSUE OF ABORTION.

YOU HAVE DONNELLY NOW, WHO'S A PRO LIFE DEMOCRAT, BUT THERE HAS BEEN A DISCONNECT, AND IT'S EASY TO BE IN THIS POSITION AT A TIME WHEN THE SUPREME COURT IS PROBABLY GOING TO REVIEW ROE VERSUS WADE, SO THAT COULD -- SHADES OF THE RACE IN 2012, RIGHT, WHEN ABORTION BECAME KIND OF THE CENTRAL ISSUE AND HE WOUND UP WINNING.

>> I DON'T SEE THERE'S ANY CONTROVERSY BETWEEN THE VATICAN AND THE UNITED STATES ON THIS ISSUE AT ALL.

I THINK THE CONTROVERSY IS WITH SOME OF THE VERY RIGHT WING, OLD BISHOPS IN THIS COUNTRY, AND THE POPE HAS MADE HIS POSITION ON THIS VERY CLEAR, THAT COMMUNION IS AVAILABLE TO ALL, WHETHER YOU'RE PRO LIFE OR PRO-CHOICE.

SO I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANY CONTROVERSY THERE AT ALL.

>> ALL RIGHT.

TIME NOW FOR VIEWER FEEDBACK.

EACH WEEK WE POSE AN UNSCIENTIFIC, ONLINE POLL QUESTION IN CONJUNCTION WITH OUR ICEMILLER E-MAIL AND TEXT ALERTS.

THIS WEEK'S QUESTION: DO YOU THINK JOE DONNELLY WILL RUN FOR SENATE OR FOR GOVERNOR IN 2024?

YES TO THE SENATE, YES TO GOVERNOR, OR C, NEITHER?

LAST WEEK'S QUESTION, IS THE FIGHT FOR REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS IN INDIANA ALREADY OVER?

JUST 29% OF YOU SAY YES, 71% SAY NO.

IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO TAKE PART IN THE POLL GO TO WFYI.ORG/IWIR AND LOOK FOR THE POLL.

EMPLOYERS ARE WAITING FOR DETAILS ON PRESIDENT BIDEN'S PROMISED RULE MAKING EMPLOYERS WITH MORE THAN 100 WORKERS REQUIRE COVID-19 VACCINATIONS OR TESTING.

INDIANA PUBLIC BROADCASTING'S JUSTIN HICKS REPORTS BUSINESSES AND WORKERS HAVE QUESTIONS ON HOW INDIANA'S GOVERNMENT WILL RESPOND WHEN THE RULE COMES.

>> OCCUPATIONAL SAFETY AND HEALTH ADMINISTRATION PROGRAMS CAN BE RUN EITHER BY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, OR AS A STATE AGENCY.

INDIANA'S OSHA OFFICE IS OPERATED BY THE STATE'S DEPARTMENT OF LABOR.

IT WILL BE CHARGED WITH ENFORCING THE NEW RULE, ALTHOUGH LABOR UNIONS HAVE LONG SAID THE AGENCY IS ROUTINELY UNDERFUNDED.

NEIL GATH IS AN ATTORNEY WHO REPRESENTS VARIOUS LABOR GROUPS IN THE STATE.

HE SAYS IT'S UNCLEAR IF IOSHA HAS THE STAFF NEEDED TO ENFORCE A NEW MANDATE.

>> THEY'RE THE APPROPRIATE AGENCY, GIVEN THE TASK I BELIEVE.

THE QUESTION IS, WILL THEY HAVE THE RESOURCES TO FULLY ADMINISTER IT?

>> GATH ADDED IT'S UNCLEAR IF STATES LIKE INDIANA WILL IMMEDIATELY ADOPT THE STANDARD IF IT'S CHALLENGED IN COURT.

ATTORNEY GENERAL TODD ROKITA HAS PROMISED HE WOULD SUE WHEN IT'S IMPLEMENTED, ALONG WITH SEVERAL OTHER REPUBLICAN GOVERNORS.

>> ANN DELANEY, DO YOU THINK INDIANA WILL ENFORCE BIDEN'S VACCINE MANDATE?

>> I THINK INDIANA IS INCAPABLE OF ENFORCING IT, OKAY?

WHEN THE REPUBLICANS DECIMATED THE RANKS OF STATE GOVERNMENT BY 25% ON THEIR WATCH, AND ROUTINELY UNDERPAID THEM, WE'RE SEEING THE CONSEQUENCES OF THIS.

THEY CAN'T ENFORCE THAT LAW.

THEY CAN'T EVEN HANDLE UNEMPLOYMENT.

IT TAKES FIVE TO SEVEN MONTHS TO GET AN APPEAL OF UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFITS THAT ARE DENIED.

YOU'D HAVE LICENSED BRANCHES CLOSED LEFT AND RIGHT.

THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING UNDER THE REPUBLICANS, AND THEY CAN'T ENFORCE IT.

BUT ON THE GOOD SIDE OF THIS, THE EMPLOYERS THEMSELVES ARE ENFORCING IT.

THERE ARE LARGE EMPLOYERS IN INDIANA, BY AND LARGE, THAT HAVE SAID GET THE VACCINE OR GET TESTED, OR OTHERWISE DON'T COME TO WORK.

SO I THINK THAT'S THE WAY IT'S GOING TO BE ENFORCED, BECAUSE THEY RECOGNIZE THEIR DUTY TO PROTECT ALL THE WORKERS AND THEIR ENVIRONMENT, BUT THE STATE IS INCAPABLE, THEY'RE ABSOLUTELY INCOMPETENT WITH THE KIND OF REDUCTION IN FORCE AND THE CHRONIC UNDERPAYMENT THAT THEY'VE MADE TO STATE EMPLOYEES, THEY CAN'T DO THE MOST BASIC FUNCTIONS OF STATE GOVERNMENT ANY LONGER.

>> MIKE O'BRIEN, CAN I GUESS YOU HAVE A DIFFERENT VIEW OF THIS?

>> ONE, IT'S NOT A BASIC FUNCTION OF STATE GOVERNMENT TO ENFORCE -- TO ENSURE THAT -- >> HOW ABOUT LICENSING -- >> YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO FIGURE OUT IF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE HAVE GOTTEN A VACCINATION, YOU'RE GOING TO CREATE A STATE AGENCY THAT HAS TO GO IN AND DO THAT?

LOOK, ONE, THIS IS GOING TO BE LITIGATED.

IT'S NEVER GOING TO COME TO THAT.

BUT THE SITUATION ON THE OTHER HAND, LOOK, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE THE LEGISLATURE BACK IN SESSION.

THERE IS NO DOWN THERE WILL BE A LEGISLATION TO BAN VACCINE MANDATES LIKE THEY DID IN TEXAS, WHICH IS ALSO A MISTAKE.

I DON'T AGREE WITH THE MANDATE FROM THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION BUT I DON'T AGREE WITH WHAT ABBOTT DID IN TEXAS BECAUSE YOU'VE LEFT THESE BUSINESSES NOW COMPLETELY CONFUSED.

AND I'M NO MORE IN FAVOR OF TELLING A BUSINESS THEY HAVE TO DO SOMETHING THAN I AM TELLING THEM THEY ABSOLUTELY CAN'T DO SOMETHING THAT THEY MIGHT THINK BE IN THEIR OWN BEST INTERESTS.

I OWN A BUSINESS AND I'M PRETTY UNAFFECTED BY COVID, OUR WHOLE TEAM IS VACCINATED SO I CAN'T REALLY APPRECIATE HAVING CUSTOMERS HAVING THAT LIABILITY EXPOSURE TO MAKING PEOPLE SICK, BUT I CAN APPRECIATE WHAT IT'S LIKE TO HAVE YOUR NAME ON THE NOTE, AND MAKING DECISIONS THAT YOU THINK ARE THE RIGHT ONES FOR THE SUCCESS AND SAFETY OF YOUR COMPANY.

SO THIS IS CHAOTIC RIGHT NOW, WHAT'S COMING OUT OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND HOW THE STATES ARE REACTING TO IT.

>> I WANT TO MAKE ONE POINT ON THIS.

I DON'T CARE IF THE LEGISLATURE SAYS THAT YOU CANNOT MANDATE AS AN EMPLOYER.

THEY DON'T HAVE ANY BUSINESS DOING THAT.

THEY DON'T HAVE ANY AUTHORITY TO DO THAT.

AN EMPLOYER, WE'RE AN AT WILL STATE AND THAT'S BECAUSE REPUBLICANS HAVE ALWAYS WANTED TO BE AN AT WILL STATE.

AN EMPLOYER CAN FIRE, FOR WHATEVER REASON THEY WANT, INCLUDING NOT BEING VACCINATED AND THE LEGISLATURE BE DAMNED.

>> I'M FOR BUSINESSES HAVING THAT OPTION.

NOT TELLING THEM THEY HAVE TO.

>> JON SCHWANTES, IT SEEMS LIKE THERE'S SORT OF TWO TRACKS HERE.

ONE, DOES THE STATE HAVE THE CAPABILITY TO ENFORCE THIS VACCINE MANDATE IF IT ENDS UP HAVING TO DO THAT, AND DOES THE ENFORCE THE VACCINE MANDATE?

WHICH TO YOU IS THE BIGGER QUESTION?

>> THEY'RE BOTH VERY IMPORTANT QUESTIONS, AND I THINK YOU'VE HIT RIGHT ON IT, BRANDON.

YOU CAN'T REALLY SAY, MIKE, THE STATE ISN'T IN THE BUSINESS OF ENFORCING WORKPLACE SAFETY BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT OSHA, IOSHA AND THE DEPARTMENT OF LABOR HAVE BEEN CHARGED WITH.

NOT IN THIS CONTEXT CERTAINLY, NOT FINDING OUT IF PEOPLE HAVE GOTTEN VACCINATIONS OR NOT, BUT IT HAS TO DO WITH, IS MACHINERY PROPERLY ENCASED, ARE PEOPLE WEARING PROPER SAFETY EQUIPMENT.

NOW GRANTED, DIFFERENT ANIMALS, BUT THEY DO HAVE THAT RESPONSIBILITY AND CERTAINLY THIS WOULD FALL UNDER THAT.

SO I THINK THE FACT THAT -- AND THIS HAS BEEN TOUCHED ON ALREADY, THE FACT THAT EMPLOYERS WHO ALREADY SEEMINGLY WANT TO HAVE THESE MANDATES WOULD BE EMBOLDENED, IT SEEMS TO ME, BECAUSE NOW THE STATE IS ESSENTIALLY BEHIND THEM, EVEN IF IT'S A PAPER TIGER AND THE STATE IS NOT NECESSARILY EQUIPPED TO SEND PEOPLE OUT TO CHECK -- AND THEY'RE NOT, LET'S FACE IT, THEY'RE NOT EQUIPPED TO DO THAT.

AT LEAST SIMPLY HAVING IT AS A MANDATE, A RULE, AND THE REPERCUSSIONS OUT THERE IF SOMEONE DID -- THE RARE INSPECTOR SHOWED UP TO LOOK AT THAT, THAT COULD HAVE SOME IMPACT.

AND AGAIN, IT EMBOLDENS EMPLOYERS.

NOW, FOR WILLINGNESS, I HAVE TO ASSUME THAT -- LET'S SAY PRESUMABLY STATE WOULD FOLLOW FEDERAL LAW.

THERE IS A SUPREMACY CLAUSE, AND IN FACT, FEDERAL LAW DOES TRUMP, AND THAT'S WHY SOUTHWEST AIRLINES AND AMERICAN AIRLINES BASED IN TEXAS QUICKLY SAID, SORRY, GOVERNOR ABBOTT, WE'RE NOT LISTENNG TO YOU WITH YOUR NO MANDATE OR NO-MANDATE MANDATE.

WE ARE LISTENING TO THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

AND I THINK IT MAY NOT HAPPEN IN THE SHORT TERM, BUT IF IT WERE LITIGATED LONG TERM, I THINK THAT WOULD BE THE OUTCOME.

>> NIKI, LET ME GET TO THAT POINT.

WHICH IS -- MIKE BROUGHT IT UP, WHICH IS THE IDEA THAT ONCE THE RULE GOES INTO EFFECT, THE FEDERAL RULE, IT WILL CERTAINLY BE LITIGATED.

THE OUTCOME OF THAT, I DON'T KNOW, AND I CAN'T SAY, BUT IT'S PROBABLY NOT GOING TO HAPPEN QUICKLY.

SO FROM A PRACTICAL STANDPOINT, ARE WE JUST NOT GOING TO HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT INDIANA'S WILLINGNESS OR CAPABILITY TO ENFORCE THIS RULE FOR QUITE SOME TIME?

>> PROBABLY NOT.

I CAN'T IMAGINE THAT THERE WON'T BE AN INJUNCTION OF SOME KIND.

ALSO, AND I'M NOT A LAWYER AND MAYBE SHE CAN STEP IN, BUT ONE THING I'M WONDERING ABOUT THIS RULE IS, RIGHT NOW LARGE EMPLOYERS CAN REQUIRE THE MANDATE, THE VACCINE OR FIRE THEM.

I'M WONDERING IF THIS ACTUALLY TAKES SOME POWER AWAY FROM THEM, BECAUSE IT'S A MANDATE OR TESTING.

SO I'M NOT SURE WHICH ONE WOULD SORT OF TRUMP, LIKE WHETHER SOME OF OUR EMPLOYEES WOULD ACTUALLY LOSE THE ABILITY TO MANDATE BY FOLLOWING THAT FEDERAL -- >> AS AN AT WILL STATE, THEY CAN STILL FIRE SOMEBODY IF THEY DON'T LIKE THE WAY THEY LOOK.

THEY SNEEZE FUNNY, YOU'RE GONE.

>> YEP, YOU'RE GONE.

>> THAT'S WHY I WOULD FIRE MOST OF MY EMPLOYEES.

MANY HOOSIER BUSINESSES ARE BACK TO DEALING WITH THE ISSUES THAT WERE TOP OF MIND PRIOR TO THE COVID-19 P PANDEMIC.

INDIANA PUBLIC BROADCASTING'S SAMANTHA HORTON REPORTS IN THE LATEST INDIANA CHAMBER EMPLOYER WORKFORCE SURVEY, ABOUT 75 PERCENT OF BUSINESSES IN INDIANA SAID THE SUPPLY OF APPLICANTS DOES NOT MEET THEIR NEEDS - UP FROM 50-PERCENT LAST YEAR.

>> JASON BEARCE IS THE CHAMBER'S VICE PRESIDENT OF EDUCATION AND WORKFORCE DEVELOPMENT.

HE SAYS BUSINESSES CAN NO LONGER AVOID ADDRESSING EXTERNAL FACTORS INCLUDING CHILDCARE, HOUSING AND TRANSPORTATION.

>> THESE KIND OF WRAPAROUND TYPE SUPPORTS THAT HISTORICALLY HAVE NOT REALLY BEEN CONSIDERED TO BE THE EMPLOYERS ROLE, ARE AT LEAST PART OF THE CONSIDERATION EMPLOYEES ARE MAKING WHEN THEY THINK ABOUT, YOU KNOW, WHERE TO WORK.

>> BEARCE SAYS TO ATTRACT AND RETAIN WORKERS, BUSINESSES HAVE TO BECOME MORE CREATIVE AND NOT WAIT FOR THE PERFECT CANDIDATE TO WALK THROUGH THE DOOR.

>> JON SCHWANTES, HOW CONCERNING IS THAT NUMBER?

75% OF BUSINESSES THAT SAY THEY CAN'T FIND QUALIFIED WORKERS.

>> I THINK IT'S CONCERNING.

AND IT'S NOT EVEN SOME KIND OF ESOTERIC OR THEORETICAL ISSUE.

I THINK WE ALL HAVE HAD THE EXPERIENCE OF GOING DOWN TO A FAVORITE EXPERIENCE, ESTABLISHMENT, RESTAURANT, BAR, WHATEVER, YOU KNOW, NOW WE'RE NOT OPEN MONDAYS, WE'RE NOT OPEN TUESDAYS, WE'RE ONLY OPEN LIMITED HOURS BECAUSE OF A LACK OF EMPLOYEES.

SO IT'S A REAL TANGIBLE ISSUE THAT I THINK HOOSIERS CAN RELATE TO.

SO BUSINESSES DO NEED TO GET CREATIVE, THEY PROBABLY ALSO NEED TO NOT JUST WORRY ABOUT OFFERING CHILD CARE AND MAYBE CHANGING THE STANDARDS OF THE -- THE JOB STANDARDS BUT MAYBE OFFER MORE MONEY, MORE ATTRACTIVE COMPENSATION PACKAGES.

IRONICALLY, AS FAR AS CHILD CARE AND SOME OF THESE OTHER ISSUES, IT'S ALMOST -- YOU WOULDN'T EXPECT, AND I'M NOT SUGGESTING THAT THE REPUBLICAN-LEANING CHAMBER IS ENDORSING THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION'S MULTITRILLION DOLLAR PLAN TO PROVIDE UNIVERSAL PRE-K AND CHILD CARE AND THOSE SORTS OF THINGS, BUT THAT WOULD ADDRESS ARGUABLY SOME OF THOSE ISSUES.

>> NIKI KELLY, THIS ISSUE HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR A WHILE.

WE'VE SEEN THESE CHAMBER WORKFORCE SURVEYS TALK ABOUT A WORKFORCE SHORTAGE, NOT HAVING ENOUGH QUALIFIED APPLICANTS FOR JOBS FOR YEARS WELL BEFORE THE PANDEMIC CERTAINLY.

THINGS GOT WORSE DURING AND COMING OUT OF THE PANDEMIC, ALTHOUGH A LOT OF FOLKS BLAMED HE EXTRA UNEMPLOYMENT AND ALL OF THE BENEFITS THAT FOLKS GOT FROM THE COVID-19 RELIEF PACKAGES, BUT THOSE ARE ALL GONE NOW FOR THE MOST PART.

SO AT WHAT POINT DOES THIS REACH LIKE KIND OF CRISIS LEVEL IN INDIANA?

>> LOOK, I THINK WE'RE THERE.

AND IT'S NOT JUST YOUR LOCAL RESTAURANT.

I MEAN, IT'S WHEN YOU GO TO THE DOCTOR'S OFFICE, WHEN YOU WANT TO GET SOMETHING FOR A GIFT, WE DON'T HAVE TRUCK DRIVER, WE DON'T HAVE NURSES, WE DON'T HAVE PARAMEDICS.

>> THE WHOLE SUPPLY CHAIN, SURE.

>> IT'S EVERY LEVEL OF JOB.

BUS DRIVERS AND YOUR LOCAL RESTAURANT WORKER.

SO YOU KNOW, I DON'T KNOW WHERE ALL THOSE WORKERS WENT OR WHAT THEY'RE DOING TO, YOU KNOW, MAKE THEIR LIVING RIGHT NOW.

IT CLEARLY ISN'T OR WASN'T THE UNEMPLOYMENT BECAUSE IT'S BEEN MONTHS NOW, AND WE HAVEN'T SEEN IT GROW THAT MUCH, SO I THINK WE'RE AT THE CHAOS POINT, MYSELF.

>> ANN DELANEY, WE'VE TALKED A LOT IN INDIANA THE LAST FEW YEARS, BUSINESSES HAVE BEEN COMING TO THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY SAYING WHAT CAN YOU DO FOR US?

IT'S ABOUT ALIGNING EDUCATION STANDARDS WITH WORKFORCE NEEDS AND ALL OF THOSE THINGS, BUT -- AND JASON BEARCE, THE CHAMBER WE HEARD IN THE STORY GOT TO SOME OF THIS, WHICH IS WHAT DO BUSINESSES NEED TO START DOING TO GET MORE CREATIVE ABOUT MAKING THEMSELVES ATTRACTIVE TO FIND THOSE QUALIFIED APPLICANTS?

>> WELL, I MEAN OBVIOUSLY PAY AND BENEFITS ARE TWO OF THE BIG THINGS BUSINESSES CAN DO, BUT THE BIGGEST OBSTACLE HERE IS CHILD CARE.

IF WE HAD UNIVERSAL PRE-K AND IF WE HAD EARLY CHILDHOOD EDUCATION AND A DECENT SET OF STRUCTURES, AFFORDABLE, I MEAN, IF YOU'RE MAKING $30,000 A YEAR AND YOU HAVE TWO YOUNG CHILDREN, THE FIRST $18,000 OF THAT MONEY IS GOING INTO CHILD CARE.

WHY NOT JUST SIMPLY STAY HOME AND LIVE WITH YOUR PARENTS?

WHICH IS WHAT'S GOING ON IN MANY OF THESE CASES.

BECAUSE IT MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO ECONOMIC SENSE.

WE NEED A CHILD CARE SYSTEM THAT ENABLES PEOPLE TO BE ABLE TO AFFORD QUALITY CHILD CARE AT THE SAME TIME WE WORK.

AND THAT'S UP TO THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY TO DO.

AN INDIVIDUAL BUSINESS CAN RAISE PAY AND CAN PERHAPS GIVE THEM A MORE REGULAR SCHEDULE FOR HOURS, WHICH IS ONE OF THE OTHER PROBLEMS AT A LOT OF THESE RESTAURANTS.

YOU FIND OUT THAT MORNING WHETHER YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO WORK THAT NIGHT.

WHAT DO YOU DO WITH TWO CHILDREN AT HOME?

THOSE ARE THE KINDS OF THINGS THAT BUSINESS NEEDS TO THINK THROUGH.

BUT IN ADDITION TO THAT, WE DO NEED PRESIDENT BIDEN'S IDEAS ON UNIVERSAL PRE-K AND EARLY CHILDHOOD EDUCATION AND CHILD CARE THAT'S AFFORDABLE FOR PEOPLE.

THAT WILL BRING PEOPLE BACK INTO THE WORKFORCE.

>> MIKE O'BRIEN, TO THAT POINT, HOW MUCH OF ADDRESSING THIS POTENTIAL CRISIS, IF WE WANT TO CALL IT THAT, AS NIKI SUGGESTED, HOW MUCH OF THIS IS GOING TO REQUIRE A SIGNIFICANT GOVERNMENT SOLUTION OR HELP, AT LEAST?

>> I DON'T DISAGREE WITH ANN.

I THINK CHILD CARE -- CERTAINLY THAT'S AN ISSUE, SOMETHING I'VE HAD TO MANAGE THROUGH OVER THE YEARS WHEN THE KIDS WERE IN CHILD CARE OR AT THAT AGE.

BUT I THINK ON THE UPSIDE, IT'S A PRETTY GOOD TIME TO BE IN THE JOB MARKET.

THE WAGES -- WAGES ARE AT RECORD LEVELS.

YOU CAN KIND OF PICK AND CHOOSE WHAT YOU WANT TO DO.

WE'VE SEEN -- ONE OF THE CONSEQUENCES, POSITIVE OR NEGATIVE, DEPENDING ON YOUR PROBLEM, OR OPPORTUNITY, IS WHEN WE PAID EVERYBODY TO STAY HOME, A LOT OF THEM KIND OF SAID, I DON'T REALLY THINK I LIKE WHAT I'M DOING, SO I'M GOING TO TAKE THIS TIME TO MAYBE TRAIN UP OR GET A CERTIFICATE OR GO LOOK FOR SOMETHING ELSE, AND NOW WE HAVE -- WE'VE PUMPED SO MUCH MONEY INTO THE ECONOMY OVER THE COURSE OF THE LAST 18 MONTHS THROUGH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, THROUGH STIMULUS AND ALL THESE THINGS THAT THE ECONOMY HAS GROWN SIGNIFICANTLY.

WE SHOULD BE -- INTUITIVELY, I THOUGHT WE WERE GOING TO COME OUT OF COVID IN A RECESSION AND THAT'S NOT WHAT HAPPENED.

SO THE ECONOMY HAS OPENED UP, THERE'S A LOT OF OPEN JOBS SO PEOPLE CAN PICK AND CHOOSE.

WHICH IS A PROBLEM BUT THERE'S ALSO AN UPSIDE TO IT FOR WORKERS.

>> LAWMAKERS ARE DISCUSSING WAYS TO MAKE IT EASIER FOR THOSE WITH OUT-OF-STATE PROFESSIONAL LICENSES TO TRANSFER CREDENTIALS INTO INDIANA.

INDIANA PUBLIC BROADCASTING'S JUSTIN HICKS REPORTS A SUMMER STUDY COMMITTEE PRODUCED A REPORT ON THE ISSUE, BUT DIDN'T GET ENOUGH VOTES TO PASS A DRAFT OF FUTURE LEGISLATION.

>> THIS SUMMER, LAWMAKERS HEARD FROM FRUSTRATED HEALTH CARE PROVIDERS WHO TESTIFIED THAT TRANSFERRING CREDENTIALS INTO INDIANA IS CUMBERSOME AND SLOW.

IN RESPONSE, THE COMMITTEE RECOMMENDS THE STATE START RECIPROCITY AGREEMENTS OR COMPACTS WITH OTHER STATES FOR PROFESSIONAL LICENSES.

BUT WHEN IT CAME TO TURNING THOSE IDEAS INTO LEGISLATION, LAWMAKERS COULDN'T AGREE.

REPRESENTATIVE TERRI AUSTIN RAISED CONCERNS IT WOULD MAKE IT HARDER FOR SOCIAL WORKERS IN PARTICULAR TO COME TO INDIANA FROM OTHER STATES.

>> THERE SEEMS TO BE SOME CONCERN THAT WE'RE ACTUALLY STEPPING UP THE BAR THAT THEY HAVE TO GET OVER NOW, SO I JUST WANT US TO GO THROUGH THIS VERY CAREFULLY.

>> TO PASS A PRELIMINARY DRAFT OF A BILL, THE STUDY COMMITTEE NEEDED EIGHT VOTES.

IT ONLY RECEIVED SEVEN.

>> NIKI KELLY, GIVE US A LITTLE CONTEXT HERE.

HOW IMPORTANT IS IT THAT THE DRAFT BILL DIDN'T GET QUITE ENOUGH VOTES IN A STUDY COMMITTEE?

>> NOT IMPORTANT AT ALL, BECAUSE -- I MEAN, TO BE FAIR, I MEAN, I WAS THERE, AND I DON'T ACTUALLY THINK A FEW OF THE MEMBERS REALIZED THAT THEIR NO-VOTES WOULD MEAN IT FAILED BECAUSE IN A NORMAL COMMITTEE, ALL IT NEEDS IS MORE YES VOTES THAN NO.

BUT IN SUMMER STUDY COMMITTEES, YOU HAVE TO HAVE A MAJORITY OF THOSE APPOINTED.

SO IT ACTUALLY HAD -- I THINK IT WAS 7-3.

WHICH, YOU KNOW, IS P PRETTY SUPPORTIVE.

SO I JUST THINK IT WAS KIND OF A QUIRK OF WHO ATTENDED OR WHO COULDN'T MAKE IT THAT DAY AND UNDERSTOOD SORT OF WHAT LEVEL THEY NEEDED TO GET TO FOR IT.

AND ANYONE CAN BRING ANY BILL.

THIS WILL DEFINITELY BE AN ISSUE IN THE LEGISLATURE.

THEY DON'T HAVE TO FOLLOW ANY RECOMMENDATIONS, AND IF THERE AREN'T ANY RECOMMENDATIONS, THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT IT DOESN'T MOVE FORWARD IN SESSION.

>> OKAY.

MIKE O'BRIEN, I WANT TO ASK YOU, ON THE CORE ISSUE ITSELF, OBVIOUSLY THERE'S A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF, WELL, WE KNOW WE WANT OUR WORKERS TO BE IN INDIANA, BUT HOW MUCH DO YOU HAVE TO GIVE A LITTLE TO ADDRESS THE TOPIC WE JUST TALKED ABOUT, WHICH IS A WORKER SHORTAGE?

>> PART OF THAT IS WHAT DRIVES THIS CONVERSATION AT THE STATEHOUSE.

IT'S THE HOOSIER-BASED PROFESSIONALS WHO ARE LICENSED BY THE PROFESSIONAL LICENSING AGENCY WHOSE ASSOCIATIONS AND EMPLOYER GROUPS OPPOSE THIS, PARTICULARLY IN HEALTHCARE, BECAUSE THEORETICALLY, YOU CAN HAVE SOMEBODY IN A FAR-OFF STATE DELIVERING HEALTHCARE VIA TELEHEALTH AND THEY'RE NEVER HERE, SO NOW THEY'RE COMPETING IN THE INDIANA HEALTHCARE MARKET WITH OTHER PROVIDERS AND I'M NOT SAYING OTHER PROVIDERS SPECIFICALLY, BUT THAT IS A DYNAMIC HERE, THIS BECOMES KIND OF A BUSINESS COMPETITION ISSUE FOR THE BUSINESSES THAT ALREADY HAVE LICENSED PROFESSIONALS IN THE STATE.

>> THAT'S TRICKY.

>> I THINK IT'S ALSO A QUALIFICATIONS ISSUE.

COMPACT AND RECIPROCITY IS GOOD, IF WE'RE SIMILAR STATES WITH SIMILAR REQUIREMENTS AND SIMILAR TESTS.

I DON'T WANT TO BE IN A COMPACT RECIPROCITY WITH MISSISSIPPI.

>> THAT IS "INDIANA WEEK IN REVIEW" FOR THIS WEEK.

OUR PANEL IS DEMOCRAT ANN DELANEY, REPUBLICAN MIKE O'BRIEN, JON SCHWANTES OF INDIANA LAWMAKERS AND NIKI KELLY OF THE "FORT WAYNE JOURNAL GAZETTE."

IF YOU'D LIKE A PODCAST OF THIS PROGRAM, YOU CAN FIND IT AT -- OR STARTING MONDAY, YOU CAN STREAM IT OR GET IT ON DEMAND FROM XFINITY AND ON THE WFYI APP.

I'M BRANDON SMITH OF INDIANA PUBLIC BROADCASTING.

STAY SAFE, GET HEALTHY, PLEASE GET VACCINATED IF YOU CAN, AND JOIN US NEXT TIME, BECAUSE A LOT >> "INDIANA WEEK IN REVIEW" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE SUPPORTERS OF INDIANA PUBLIC BROADCASTING STATIONS, AND BY ICEMILLER.

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>> THE OPINIONS EXPRESSED ARE SOLELY THOSE OF THE PANELISTS.

"INDIANA WEEK IN REVIEW" IS A WFYI PRODUCTION IN ASSOCIATION