picture this an Emmy award-winning broadcast journalist quits his job and decides to co-host a true crime podcast with his mother an 80-some therapist who also happens to be a holocaust Survivor and that book is surviving the Survivor by Joel Waldman [Music] welcome to between the covers I'm Anne boock and joining me are Joel Waldman and Carmela Waldman Joel's book is surviving the Survivor a brutally honest conversation about life and death with my mom a holocaust Survivor therapist and my podcast co-host welcome to you both thank you so much for being here I've got to put a disclaimer or apology out there uh this one can get a little wild so we apologize in advance uh for any Shenanigans I will behave before the book Joel you left a great career a demanding career as a correspondent and you started a podcast with your mother because face it who doesn't do that yeah exactly um you know was uh kind of serendipitous um I tell everybody that everything I've done in life has been totally by accident um you know I started off as one of the first producer hires at MSNBC and wound up a national correspondent for Fox News Channel and um you know I ended up having children late in life which uh is very very demanding because I was on the road probably three weeks out of uh every month and just thought it was time to move on and then the pandemic hit and I was like what am I going to do so uh I didn't hit up any of my media buddies I hit up this one to do a podcast I was very happy about it you were happy about it come did he have to twist your arm I mean look there's a million views a month yeah what did he say to to for you to go let's do this he said do you want to do a podcast with me and he hardly finished the sentence I said yes it's a true crime podcast you talk about the top cases current cases past cold cases you have the best guests you have attorneys and detectives where did the interest in True Crime come from great question so I've always been a News Junkie this one is a licensed therapist my father may he rest in peace uh was a psychiatrist so I grew up very curious which is why I think I became um a journalist and everything that I reported on throughout my career uh you know was kind of forced on me so I worked uh at the New York Stock Exchange I was covering us equities I knew nothing about it later in my career I get thrown down to DC to cover politics I didn't really know anything about that I'd always been really attracted to True Crime just the psychology why do people do these crazy things and these moments of passion or why are things premeditated and um when we started the podcast it was just us talking um I thought she had more star power than Joe Rogan I still think she does but it just didn't take off you've got You' got he has Illusions so you've got to have a niche and we fell into it uh totally through uh happen stance Carmela did you know anything about True Crime before this I picked up the first 80 years off and on here and there but I wasn't as into it as he was and uh full disclosure when we started the F when we talked about doing this and going to the recording studio we did not start immediately with True Crime we started with human interest stories and we are both kind of very into everything that's happening all the time and we interviewed very very very interesting people which I'm very happy about and it it was very much in contrast with what was happening in the world where there was um uh epidemic going and everybody was locked down and we were interviewing the people on Zoom so we could do it but after a while we realized and we read read had some literature on on podcast and they said you have to find a niche and through Serendipity we got into this Niche and he'll tell you how it's a perfect Niche no it's really and it's it's a niche within a niche so I joke with everyone by the way Karm I call her Karm she's my mom I call her mom Karm but um she was a co-host but uh now that she's 85 she has decided to uh slack in her older years so semi semi retired so she's not on every night but I kind of dubb myself uh for a certain Generation Um which we're all a part of the Larry King of True Crime so every night we do a live show on YouTube panel style show of the uh most topical True Crime cases in America we've got FBI profilers we've got homicide detectives got the kids of serial killers you name it we've got a on but really big high-profile names Nancy Grace Vinnie paan of Court TV they come on and we talk about these cases the podcast and the book all have the same artwork it it's the head shot of of the two of you but the podcast has this sticker overcomed mouth with a warning so the warning came true in the book because now they understand in on the podcast I refuse to use four-letter words I control myself but when he provokes me in private as we as we taped for the book then I couldn't read this I think the the quote was she you speak six languages and curses proficiently in all of them in all six of them actually I speak five languages karma is a uh she's she's a force of nature a force of power which is why I wrote the book which is obviously what we're going to get into in in a moment but um she claims it's me only me but I can uh elicit um foul language from her she likes to drop F bombs and he's a provocator yeah and uh she she speaks her mind so if you ask my children my three kids they will say that they learned all the curse words they learned they learned from Grandma almost all Carmela you are a holocaust Survivor uh it we we learned in the book you were separated from your parents when you were 5 years old yeah you were hidden in a boy's Catholic school now the loss and the emotional trauma is more than many of us can even imagine but how you handle it is a different dimension and there's a backstory Joe you talk about Carmela and and a friend who was also a Survivor and in this context it's like who had it worse I mean what's the lesson there the lesson is you are better off if there is no Holocaust all kidding aside uh the lesson is that you have to continue uh and and I think thanks to uh maybe my mother and my stepfather my grandmother's love and the community where I lived after the war I kind of and many people in this community who were not Jewish suffered from the consequences of World War II I had many friends who lost their father the way I lost my f i mean a different way but also lost their father and and we all uh just kind of go went ahead and continued with our lives but I think it leaves uh what happened to me at that age I think it carries on on to today in other words I think that there are certain traits of my personality that are as a consequence of that trauma the the story that I was referencing did you know about that before you interviewed your mother for this book yeah um real quickly before I answer that I just want to make it really clear so this is a a holocaust story but it's about 15 or 20% of the book and the rest of the book is really just life advice from someone that's been through a lot and it's not just the Holocaust so um but I knew bits and pieces of the story it was kind of like kaleidoscopic images but my mother um and you'll find out through this interview and reading the book no matter how bad things get number one she's always using humor which is why I try to use a lot of humor myself and kind of half jokingly joke that it's a laugh out loud Holocaust book but um I I knew bits and pieces and so um when we wrote the book and I say we because they're all recorded conversations I really had to sit down um as a journalist and ask questions you know kind of from point A to point B because there were so many missing uh gaps and and holes in my head uh but hearing it and recording it um you know really helped kind of make it a cohesive cogent story which I'm hopefully okay at telling in this book it it is it's everything it there are Parts I laughed at and parts that that were you know kind of just gripped me your husband Joel's father died while this book was being written you also lost a child and yet I read this book and all I see is strength and optimism I and this is your mother yeah this is why I wrote the book so this book is really inspirational it's not a book to get down and you know 12 millionth Holocaust book about uh alwiz you know people in in ast's Camp but um more about resilience and without a doubt and my mom says this in the book losing my father her husband of 63 years has been the hardest thing and she's also lost a child so it's really about overcoming that and you know we we kid with each other you know it's my dad well it's my husband you know who's it been harder on truth is neither of us I don't think it's been almost two years we haven't really properly mourned his death but it's it's interesting to watch my mom in real time because she's in survival mode you know she can turn things on and off which most people can't do um I don't know how healthy that is necessarily but she appears very healthy and she's really a role model uh for the people around her she was a role model for me just reading this book we we talked you know a little bit about grief here everyone Grieves differently but Carmela is there something generational have we enabled our children maybe to not be tough enough I enabled him 100% I I say it in the book and I can say it without the book that the biggest mistake I made in life is to spoil him and and his sister is not that spoiled because she was the first one say come on TV she puts me down by the way I am not putting the book down I'm putting you it's it's not all my fault we're leaving her condo today I'm 55 years old she's like make sure you use the restroom I said okay she goes make sure you flush she's yelling to me I'm 55 years old so part of the a joke that's a j that's not a joke it's a joke it's a joke no but we it's I have a hard time allowing I don't think I am quote healthy mentally uh everybody's kind of on the on the CP of some craziness but but I think overall uh helping other people in my profession I have a master's in social work and then I took additional courses and I was doing uh therapy with people plus my husband was a psychiatrist and that certainly helped because he he was a wonderful supportive caring really a mythologically um unbelievably it's also by the way it's interesting I said you couldn't cut her off but I could cut you off so she like my father and her you know the yin to yangs my father is very softspoken very very you know smart and very assertive but very quiet she's screaming and cursing so it was also the interesting compliment uh to one another but I used to say to my dad H how do you take Mom yelling at you there's never a day that's gone by where he goes in one ear out the other so now I use that in my own marriage in one year out the other yes it is working the book is incredibly honest it it is brutally honest in in some places and you can't help but everyone cannot help but see this close relationship you have what surprised you when you were writing this book uh pretty much nothing I would say except for parts of the story that I just wasn't aware of but look some people read this and and they said you know it's it's funny shtick this is not shtick our entire drive up here to the studio today I was asking her her we're we're having a conversation about the importance of Life what is death like we talk about things non-stop I'm constantly worrying about certain things and I tell her well what do I do and she's like you know talk to someone else don't talk to me I'm too old now whatever you know but we're constantly going back and forth about what's important in life what's not important in life what should we value what shouldn't we value so it's these are conversations we are constantly having and I I just decided to record them and like you said some of them might be a little comfortable to listen to cuz it's literally like sitting in our living room while we're having a private conversation you're an em awardwinning broadcast journalist you have interviewed tons of people is it tricky interviewing your own mother yes because she's super smart super shrewd um so it is you know to get what I to get what I want to get out of her I I've got to come at it from couple of different angles but I tell everybody you know i' I've been in Broadcast News or was in it 27 years now I have the podcast but this is the most important story I've ever reported on and it's it's just my dream that people will share this book and read this book not because I wrote it and not because she signs every copy having not written it but because it is such an important um story I think and it's far beyond the Holocaust it's it's it's what is important in life it is definitely far beyond the Holocaust but I I have to go back to that for a moment because there is something referred to as second generation survivors where where the children of Holocaust Survivors feel sometimes guilt sometimes pain what about you that's what surprised me so it's it's come full circle that's a great question so you know my dad who was a psychiatrist as we mentioned and she's a therapist he he hated labeling people he was the least shrinky psychiatrist you could ever meet my dad's favorite expression was just do it or do it in spite of the fear he was very logical um but one thing I definitely have is generational trauma um my mother is by nature paranoid you know it's in her in her DNA you know the Nazis were literally literally came and took her father and there is no doubt I mean I have a much higher uh anxiety level than most people I you know I worry about things I don't know why I worry about things and I think these are all like defensive mechanisms that were literally given to me through osmosis so you know my dad would say oh m jumbo you make your own decisions you know life is all about choices but there's no doubt that I learned that there is a certain impact that this is all hat on me definitely you are the more sens sensitive I kind of the Hol one of the side effects of the Holocaust is that I learned when I was away from my parents at the age of a month before my fifth birthday I went there and I was there for six months in that boy school I learned to almost like switch off pain uh I numb myself psychologically speaking and I think I'm still using the same mechanism to a degree not to feel pain and Joel is kind of open to pain which is to me uh almost like a luxury to be open to pain so Joel is Joel and sometimes I'm like too hard and too tough and too iCal and two wise guy and I know I [Music] am Carmela you have this successful podcast this book that's that is amazing was there anything off limits that you asked Joel not to include I don't think that there was anything off limit in our uh conversations um I don't believe in family secrets I think we have to distinguish between family secrets which poison families and and things that you don't dwell on or talk about or emphasize or bring up too much I was raised by a mother who was a school teacher my father was killed I was raised by a mother who was a school teacher and she she was in her youth influenced by by the Freudian theories and she was very open with me there was nothing we couldn't talk about and I think I made the same mistake with my children when they were younger and I remember we had a friend psychiatrist he says Carmela you don't have to talk about everything uh like I underestimated how much it would impact the children if I am really that open so I find this so refreshing I think that children look at their parents excuse me as one-dimensional and granted most children do not write their parents' story so having these conversations that that you how did that work where there really was nothing off limits where you you learned of your mother not as your mother but as a whole human I mean it's fascinating that the thing is this is our lives all the time it's not just in the writing of this book um I I wish we recorded the conversation on the way up here because I literally was asking my mom what is the point of life like you got we were just talking about I was saying Elon Musk is worth $280 billion and doesn't even live in a home right now you've got a social studies teacher in Iowa that has everything so there's all these contradictions in life that I'm always thinking about wondering about and the person with all the answers always seems to be my mother um so I go to her no you asked the questions and uh I don't know if you noticed in the last few years I say I don't know the answer yeah sometimes she does say that I think it's a luxury to say I don't know by the way if my mother's ever if I call her for advice and there silence that's the only thing that triggers me in life really triggers me uh you talked about not keeping family secrets recently and this is personal I had to go through my family's belongings I found Treasures I found wartime notes from World War II that were things that were never discussed I had grandparents that had to escape Europe I never knew about an awit connection until I was old um you I'm looking at you thinking first of all you should have been my therapist and these secrets having Secrets is not healthy no no no not later than last night I saw um something on um on u Netflix and the whole story was related to family secrets which of course never can stay there earlier or later they explode and they come out so you know you sit on that secret and then you lose I think there's two Dimensions you know like there's there's the one side of the spectrum where people are just so closed off then I think we're slightly dysfunctional on the other end where we're talking about more than we probably should but that's just the way um I think we've always you know we've always I remember as a joke and not a joke when Joel was a teenager he would come and and um and he would say I feel I feel I said Joel try not to tell me so much anymore how you feel I said I don't care and then people said to me you're so lucky my teenager never tells me how he feels you know my I remember I still tell you how I feel and you still tell me not to tell you how I feel yeah I don't want to know how you you have a wife that you love share it with listen I think I'll just life is absurd I mean and I just see all the absurdity in it I think she does too and that's why we compliment each other that you know this that this book is going to definitely change the way you see life I can guarantee you that if it does nothing else but the message is the main message is I think when you said the absurdities of that in spite of the absurdities of life life is beautiful and especially now when when I'm kind of feeling that one of these days it the you know The Hourglass will the scand will disappear and I will die I think now I even more than ever I realize how wonderful life is with all its warts and all its aggravations and all its Horrors that said how do you look at all the things that are going on in the world today half full or half empty is that glass well right now you there is a little bit of attention I have a half sister who lives in in Europe and seriously without the jokes she she's very concerned that there will be a World War and there is this undercurrent of feeling in Europe luckily we don't have it that much here as yet so the the world is pretty tense and there are many conflicts that are very serious and there are many polit political upheavals but looking back on the last 85 years I think there always has been uh a lot of conflicts and you know there was a time when people were kids were trained in school to go under their desk in the case of a nuclear attack uh so so basically I think it it has been always it life has had challenges always yeah quick spoil alert so in the book she's saved by not one but two what they call Righteous Gentiles who are non-jews and I think that's a great lesson for today there's so much divisiveness hatred uh and these are people who were not Jewish who who basically risked their lives to save my mother and because of that we have a photo of four generations she's a great-grandmother twice of all the stories you've ever told how important was it to tell this one the most by far and I've interviewed presidents I've interviewed vice presidents I've interviewed politicians I've interviewed tons of celebrities um I've had a very fortunate uh interesting career nothing compares to this and it's again it's personal for sure but I think um the story will resonate with it literally everyone um and it will change the way you perceive life because everyone in life is going through loss and grief and hardships and hurdles I feel like I'm going through every single day but uh my mother's just a real symbol of um having those things in your life but still moving forward and moving forward at a very very uh fast effective uh clip and uh enjoying your life while doing it at the core of this book it's a book about life about death and it's honest advice about living so you know what I'm going to ask what's the best advice your mother ever gave you that's great you know I don't listen to 99 that's exactly what I exactly what what's the difference what advice I he doesn't listen to my advice my dad is a product of the Great Depression he was born my my dad's from born in Brooklyn raised in the Bronx but literally with you know apples on the corner for a penny that he was you know having to sell that kind of thing so I inherited that from him which is like this anxiety so I'm constantly moaning to her am I going to be okay if finan million other things and she's like whatever you're worrying about is not the worry that's going to be the worry you need to be worrying about if that makes any sense and my dad at the end of his life and by the way I'm working on Surviving the psychiatrist um but but um you know he's it was always I'm worried about money I'm worried about money I'm worried about money and at the end last 10 years of his life I'm just worried about time I made a mistake I should have always been worried about time there's a quote in the book from Carol Basin who people know from the Tiger King series The Inter she said that you werey endangered species I wholeheartedly agree thank you Joel Waldman Carmela Waldman I cannot thank you enough for sharing your time thank you so much by the way she was calling it uh Lion King to her face the entire time she had she was the only one in America that hadn't seen the show but thank you so much and she thank you so much for having us of all we people she's one of the people that inspired me to write this book because of that quote the book is surviving the Survivor I'm Anne boock please join me on the next between the covers [Applause]