>>> OUR NEXT GUEST SITS ON THE BOARD OF TWO ORGANIZATIONS DEDICATED TO HELPING PEOPLE LIKE YUSEF SALAAM WHO WERE WRONGLY INCARCERATED.

THE INNOCENCE PROJECT AND SATURNIAN MINISTRIES.

JOHN GRISHAM IS A BEST-SELLING AUTHOR AND HOUSEHOLD NAME AROUND THE WORLD AND HE CHANNELS HIS PASSION FOR JUSTICE THROUGH HIS LEGAL THRILLERS.

HE TEAMED UP WITH CENTURION MINISTRIES FOUNDER JIM McCLOSKEY FOR HIS NEXT BOOK.

THE RESULT IS "FRAMED, ASTONISHING TRUE STORIES OF WRONGFUL CONVICTIONS."

HE TALKS ABOUT THE CONSEQUENCE OF A FAIR TRIAL, A DEATH PENALTY, THE FLAWS OF INTERROGATION.

>> THANK YOU HIM A WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> 50 NUMBER ONE BEST-SELLING NOVELS THAT YOU HAVE WRITTEN, ALL FICTION BUT 20 YEARS AGO YOU WROTE A PIECE OF NONFICTION CALLED THE INNOCENT MAN ABOUT A BASEBALL PLAYER WRONGFULLY CONVICTED.

NOW YOU HAVE GONE BACK TO THIS AGAIN, YOU'VE GONE BACK TO DOING A NONFICTION BOOK ABOUT PEOPLE WRONGLY CONVICTED.

WHY?

>> WHY?

IT'S THE SAME REASON AS THE NOVELS, A GREAT STORY.

ALL GREAT STORIES.

EVERY WRONGFUL CONVICTION IS FROM A PURE STELLA TORI STORYTELLING POINT OF VIEW.

HUMAN SUFFERING, ANYTIME YOU'VE GOT GREAT HUMAN SUFFERING YOU'VE GOT GREAT STORIES AND GREAT FICTION AND NONFICTION IT BECAUSE OF THE INJUSTICE, THE PERSEVERANCE, ALL THE ELEMENTS ARE THERE, THE SENSE OF LOSS THEY HAVE AFTER SPENDING 20 YEARS AND 30 YEARS, THE STORIES, I AM DRAWN TO THESE STORIES.

>> ARE THEY CONNECTED TO YOUR FICTION?

REDEMPTION IS A THEME IN SOME OF THESE.

>> THAT'S WHAT I'M READING THESE DAYS.

I'M ON BOARD OF THE INNOCENCE PROJECT AND NOW CENTURION MINISTRIES , THESE ADVOCACY'S.

I DEAL WITH THE CASES AND READ ABOUT THESE CASES ALL THE TIME AND AS ADVOCATES WE TAKE ON THESE CASES AND WE HAVE CASES GOING ON ALL THE TIME AND HAVE WORKED WITH THEM FOR YEARS AND I'M FAMILIAR WITH THE CASES AND IF I'M LUCKY I WILL MEET THE EXONERATIONS WHEN THEY ARE OUT AND THAT'S THE FUN PART.

ONCE THEY SURVIVE THE NIGHTMARES MOST OF US CANNOT BEGIN TO COMPREHEND.

THEY ARE INCREDIBLE PEOPLE WITH INCREDIBLE STORIES.

>> THERE'S NEWS THIS WEEK, HE TESTIFIED IN A TEXAS CASE ALONG WITH DOCTOR PHIL McGRAW, ROBERT ROBERTSON WAS THE CASE AND YOU HAD BEEN ABLE TO GET IT SO THAT HE WASN'T EXECUTED.

>> I DIDN'T DOING ANYTHING.

I MAY HAVE BROUGHT ATTENTION TO THE CASE.

HE WAS SCHEDULED TO DIE LAST THURSDAY AT 6:00 P.M. WE HAD KNOWN THIS FOR MONTHS AND AS THE CLOCK COUNTED DOWN AND I GOT TO KNOW THE LAWYERS INVOLVED THERE WAS A TREMENDOUS FLURRY OF ACTIVITY TO STOP THE EXECUTION.

IT WASN'T GOING TO BE STOPPED.

WITHOUT THE GOVERNOR MIGHT DO IT BUT HE WASN'T GOING TO DO IT.

THE COURTS WEREN'T GOING TO HELP.

AT THE LAST MINUTE THIS HOUSE COMMITTEE ON CRIMINAL JURIES PRUDENCE PULLED A FAST ONE, A BIPARTISAN COMMITTEE THAT WAS SO OUTRAGED AT THE ROBERTSON CASE AND THE FACT TEXAS HAD NOT STOPPED THE EXECUTION THAT THEY WERE HAVING HEARINGS ON WEDNESDAY AND THURSDAY AND ISSUED A SUBPOENA FOR ROBERTSON WHO HAD BEEN ON DEATH ROW FOR 20 YEARS TO APPEAR BEFORE THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON OCTOBER 21 AND HE WAS SUPPOSED TO BE EXECUTED ON OCTOBER 17 SO IT WAS A CLEVER MOVE ON THEIR PART AND IT WAS A HAIL MARY AND IT WORKED.

THESE TEXAS LAWMAKERS ARE ABSOLUTE HEROES.

THEY SAVED HIS LIFE LAST THURSDAY NIGHT AND THE EXECUTION NOW IS AT LEAST 90 DAYS AWAY AND THE LAWYERS ARE SCRAMBLING TO GET IN COURT.

A FASCINATING STORY AND ONE MORE REASON TO ARGUE THERE'S NO ROOM FOR THE DEATH PENALTY IN THIS COUNTRY THE WAY IT IS APPLIED AND USED.

IT'S SO UNFAIR AND IT ENSNARES INNOCENT PEOPLE.

>> YOU TALKED ABOUT PEOPLE WHO ENDED UP HAVING COMMITTED THE CRIMES THAT OTHERS WERE ACCUSED OF AND SOME OF THEM WERE HORRENDOUS AND YOU SAID THERE'S NO ROOM FOR THE DEATH PENALTY THE WAY IT HAS BEEN APPLIED IN THIS COUNTRY.

DO YOU THINK THAT THERE IS SOME RATIONALE FOR THE DEATH PENALTY AT ALL?

>> WELL, FROM A MORAL POINT OF VIEW I'M NOT IN FAVOR OF THE DEATH PENALTY WE CAN ALL AGREE KILLING IS WRONG SO WHY DO WE ALLOW THE STATE TO KILL?

I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANY ROOM IN OUR SOCIETY FOR KILLING PEOPLE.

BUT I AM IN THE MINORITY IN THE COUNTRY AND I DIDN'T GROW UP WITH THAT FEELING OR BELIEF AND I WOULD TELL MY FRIENDS WHO FAVOR CAPITAL PUNISHMENT THAT YOU CANNOT FAVOR THIS SYSTEM BUT IF YOU WANTED TO DO THIS AND HAVE A TRULY FAIR CAPITAL PUNISHMENT SYSTEM THERE'S A WAY TO DESIGN ONE WHICH INSURES THAT ALL OF THE TRIALS ARE FAIR.

THE ROBERTSON CASE IN TEXAS IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF A TRIAL THAT WAS GROSSLY UNFAIR.

HE NEVER HAD A CHANCE.

YOU COULD PROVIDE FOR FAIR TRIALS AND AS AMERICANS WE AT LEAST PAY LIP SERVICE TO THE NOTION OF FAIR TRIALS.

WHEN I WAS A YOUNG LAWYER I ALWAYS THOUGHT WE'D HAVE A FAIR TRIAL I LOST MOST OF MY TRIALS BUT I WAS FIGHTING FOR SOMETHING AND FIGHTING FOR A FAIR TRIAL AND IF WE COULD ENSURE THE FAIR TRIALS WE WOULD NOT SEE SO MANY WRONGFUL CONVICTIONS SO I AM OPPOSED TO IT BUT I RESPECT THE OPINIONS OF THOSE PEOPLE THAT ARE STILL IN FAVOR OF IT.

I DON'T AGREE WITH THEM.

THERE IS A WAY TO DO IT BETTER.

>> TELL ME ABOUT JIM McCLOSKEY, YOUR CO-AUTHOR, HOW DID YOU HOOK UP WITH HIM AND HOW DID YOU DIVIDE OUT THE ROLE IN THE BOOK?

>> I MET HIM 15 YEARS AGO.

JIM FOUNDED CENTURION 40 YEARS AGO.

HE WAS A DIVINITY STUDENT AT PRINCETON WHEN HE GOT INTO THIS WORK.

HE WAS NAMED AS CENTURION MINISTRIES, AND ADMISSIONS ADVOCACY LITIGATION GROUP.

IN 40 YEARS JIM AND CENTURION HAS WALKED OUT 71 INNOCENT PEOPLE.

71 AND COMBINED THEY SPENT OVER 1500 YEARS IN PRISON.

HE IS A TRUE AMERICAN HERO AND HE ASKED ME TO COME TO PRINCETON FOR THE ANNUAL FAMILY WEEKEND WHEN ALL OF THEIR EXONERATIONS CAME BACK INTO TOWN TO CELEBRATE, THEY BRING THEIR FAMILIES, MOTHERS AND WIVES.

THEY ARE THERE TO CELEBRATE FREEDOM AND IT'S AN EMOTIONAL TIME AND IT'S VERY MOVING.

IT'S A GREAT WEEKEND.

JIM ASKED ME 15 YEARS AGO TO GO TO PRINCETON AND COME TO PRINCETON THAT WEEKEND AND SPEAK AND HANG OUT AND I WAS THERE WITH BRIAN DUNN HE.

BUT HOW I WAS ABLE TO MEET JIM.

HE IS A WONDERFUL HUMAN BEING AND ONE OF MY HEROES IN LIFE.

>> THE FIRST STORY YOU TELL IN THE BOOK IS THAT OF THE MURDER OF MICHELLE BOSCO.

HE WROTE OF THE CASE THAT IT IS ONE OF THE GREATEST TRAIN WRECKS IN THE HISTORY OF AMERICAN CRIMINAL JUSTICE.

WHAT HAPPENED?

>> SHE WAS MURDERED IN HER APARTMENT IN NORFOLK VIRGINIA.

ALL OF THESE YOUNG SAILORS LIVED IN THE SAME COMMUNITY IN NORFOLK.

THE RAPIST MURDERER WAS A MAN POLICE SHOULD HAVE BEEN ONTO.

HE WAS GUILTY OF OTHER SEXUAL ASSAULTS IN THE SAME AREA BEFORE THIS ONE AND RIGHT AFTER THIS ONE.

HE NEVER STOPPED AND HE WAS UNDER THEIR NOSE.

WHILE THE POLICE WERE AT THE CRIME SCENE GATHERING EVIDENCE, DOING THE PROPER JOB WITH THE TECHNICIANS AND ALL THAT, THE CRIME SCENE INVESTIGATORS WHILE THEY WERE DOING IN THE WORK FOR HOURS, HE DID A GREAT JOB AND DECIDED RIGHT THEN THERE WAS A SOUL PERPETRATOR AND ONE PERSON DID THIS.

THERE WAS BLOOD, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF EVIDENCE AND WHILE THEY WERE DOING THAT THE DETECTIVES OUTSIDE OF THE APARTMENT WERE SCREWING UP THE CASE.

THEY ZEROED IN ON A NEIGHBOR, ANOTHER SAILOR THAT THEY THOUGHT WAS ACTING SUSPICIOUS AND THEY THOUGHT MAYBE HE SHOULD BE THE KILLER SO THEY ASKED HIM TO COME TO THE POLICE STATION FOR AN INTERROGATION AND KEPT HIM FOR 15 HOURS AND VERBALLY BROKE HIM DOWN.

HE FINALLY GAVE THIS INCREDIBLE CONFESSION THAT MATCHED WITH NONE OF THE PHYSICAL EVIDENCE A CLASSIC CASE OF A FALSE CONFESSION.

THAT WAS JUST THE BEGINNING.

THEY WENT ON AND ON AND WHEN THE DNA CAME BACK FROM THE ORIGINAL PERPETRATOR, THEY IGNORED THAT.

ONE TIME, BY THE TIME THEY CAUGHT THE KILLER THERE WERE SEVEN U.S.

SAILORS LOCKED UP CHARTS WITH CAPITAL MURDER ALL OF WHOM HAD BEEN EXCLUDED BY DNA AND NONE OF WHOM HAD CRIMINAL RECORDS OTHER THAN A DUI CHARGE AND MOST OF THEM WERE BOY SCOUTS WERE EAGLE SCOUTS.

20-YEAR-OLD SAILORS SERVING THEIR COUNTRY IN JAIL IN NORFOLK VIRGINIA CHARGED WITH CAPITAL MURDER.

A GARGANTUAN TRAIN WRECK WHICH WAS CAUSED SOLELY BY THE POLICE.

>> AND IT WAS CAUSED BY INTERROGATION.

I MEAN IT'S ONE OF THE THEMES IN THE BOOK, INTERROGATION IS OFTEN THE LAZY COPS WAY OF SOLVING A CASE .

WHY DO THEY GET SO MANY FALSE CONFESSIONS?

>> BECAUSE PEOPLE CAN BE VULNERABLE.

NOT EVERYONE IS AS STRONG AS YOU OR ME .

EVERYONE SAYS WELL I WOULD NEVER CONFESS TO SOMETHING SO TERRIBLE.

ONE OF THE NORTH LOOK FOUR SAILORS TOLD ME WHEN THEY WERE OUT OF PRISON AND THEY WERE EXONERATED.

I WAS HANGING OUT WITH THEM.

ONE OF THEM SAID DURING THE INTERROGATION THAT WENT ON FOR 15 HOURS WITH NO FRIEND INSIDE, NO LAWYER, NOTHING.

HE SAID I WOULD HAVE CONFESSED TO KILLING MY MOTHER JUST TO GET OUT OF THE ROOM IT WAS SO HORRIBLE AND THAT'S WHAT THE POLICE, NOT MANY BUT SOME, THEY KNOW HOW TO VERBALLY BREAKDOWN THE SUSPECTS OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME ALL IN A NIGHT.

ALL WITHOUT THE BENEFIT OF A VIDEO CAMERA ON.

THEY BREAK THEM DOWN.

THEY USE ALL OF THESE DIRTY TRICKS THEY WILL SAY YEAH, YOUR TWO BUDDIES, YOUR CODEFENDANTS HAVE CONFESSED AND THEY ARE BLAMING YOU.

THEY COULD LIE IT WILL AND LIE EXCESSIVELY.

THEY COULD TELL ALL UTILIZE THAT THEY WANT.

OUR SUPREME COURT SAID THEY COULD DO THAT AND THEY DO IT ALL THE TIME.

>> A LOT OF THE INNOCENCE PROJECT DEALT WITH DNA EVIDENCE COMING IN BUT MUCH OF THIS BOOK AND MUCH OF WHAT MR. McCLUSKEY DOES IS USE OTHER KINDS OF RESIDENCE, TELL ME ABOUT THAT.

>> VERY FEW MURDERS ACTUALLY HAVE DNA.

MOST MURDERS DO NOT HAVE DNA .

MOST DO NOT INVOLVE A SEXUAL ASSAULTS SO YOU DON'T HAVE SOME KIND OF FLUID LEFT BEHIND.

YOU DON'T HAVE DNA SO WHAT JIM McCLOSKEY DID YEARS AGO WITH GO TO THE SCENE OF THE CRIME.

YOU GET THE POLICE REPORT THE TRIAL TRANSCRIPTS, HE WOULD IMMERSE HIMSELF IN THE CASE AND KNEW EVERYTHING PRESENTED IN COURT AND LOOK AT THE POLICE REPORTS TO START FINDING DISCREPANCIES IN WHAT THE WITNESSES SAY AND WOULD KNOCK ON DOORS AND SOME OF THE WORST NEIGHBORHOODS IN AMERICA AND SAY, HEY I'M SO-AND-SO, 15 YEARS AGO YOU TESTIFIED AGAINST THIS GUY IN PRISON CAN WE TALK ABOUT YOUR TESTIMONY?

HE WOULD BEGIN BUILDING TRUST WITH THE WITNESSES, MANY OF WHOM HAD LIED YEARS AGO.

HE WOULD SLOWLY PUT TOGETHER A CASE.

IT WAS REMARKABLE WORK.

JIM TOLD ME THE AVERAGE CASE ONCE HE TOOK THE CASE THEY HAD TO TURN DOWN MOST OF THEM, AND 3-5 YEARS INVESTIGATING WHETHER OR NOT THEY WOULD TAKE THE CASE AND WHEN THEY TOOK THE CASE IT WOULD TAKE 10 MORE YEARS TO WIN THE CASE AND EXONERATE AND SPEND ABOUT $300,000 OF MONEY THEY DIDN'T HAVE.

THEY HAVE TO RAISE THE MONEY SO IT'S DIFFICULT TO GET SOMEONE OUT OF PRISON WHEN THEY ARE IN AND IT'S EASY TO CONVINCE SOMEBODY IF THE POLICE WANT TO PUT TOGETHER A CASE INVOLVING JAILHOUSE SNITCHES WHO ARE LYING, BOGUS SIGNS, THINGS LIKE THAT AND YOU COULD GET A CONVICTION.

IT'S A MOST IMPOSSIBLE TO GET SOMEONE OUT.

SO JIM DID THIS THE HARD WAY WITHOUT DNA.

HE DID THIS WITH KNOCKING ON DOORS AND BUILDING TRUST.

>> THERE IS OTHER PHYSICAL EVIDENCE THAT SOMETIMES IS USED , AND THE KENNEDY BOROUGH CASE YOU WROTE ABOUT BITE MARKS.

HOW GOOD IS THAT AS THE TYPE OF PHYSICAL EVIDENCE AND DO WE HAVE STANDARDS FOR THAT?

>> IT'S TERRIBLY INACCURATE.

WHEN YOU'VE GOT A BITE MARK ANALYSIS WHICH HAS BEEN OUTLAWED IN A MOST EVERY JURISDICTION.

A HAIR ANALYSIS, A BOOT MARK ANALYSIS, BLOOD SPATTER ANALYSIS, THESE ARE ALL DUBIOUS TYPES OF SCIENCE, NOT REALLY SCIENCE, NOT BASED IN SCIENCE BUT THEY'VE BEEN USED FOR YEARS LIKE THE SHAKEN BABY SYNDROME, THEY ARE USED AGGRESSIVELY BY U.S.

PROSECUTORS FOR DECADES AND THAT'S WHY WE'VE GOT SO MANY INNOCENT PEOPLE IN PRISON.

THE BLOOD OF BAD SCIENCE IN THE COURTROOMS.

ONE OF THE GOALS OF THE INNOCENCE PROJECT AND OF CENTURION IS TO PASS A NATIONAL STANDARD OF FORENSIC SCIENCE TO CLEAN UP THE COURTROOMS AND TO REQUIRE EXPERTS BE BASED IN SCIENCE, EXPERT OPINIONS THAT ARE BASED IN SCIENCE BEFORE THEY ARE SHOWN TO THE JURY.

WE DO A LOUSY JOB OF SCREENING AHEAD OF TIME AND YOU PAY THE PRICE FOR THE WRONGFUL CONVICTIONS IN MISSISSIPPI INVOLVING AUGUST BITE MARK TESTIMONY THAT WAS PROVEN TO BE CONCLUSIVELY WRONG.

>> MUCH OF WHAT WE HAVE LEARNED FROM STORIES IN THIS BOOK.

>> IF YOU EVER SUSPECT THE POLICE SUSPECT YOU OF A CRIME , CALL A LAWYER IMMEDIATELY AND DON'T TALK TO THEM.

THAT'S THE GOLDEN RULE RIGHT THERE AND IF YOU THINK YOU'LL BE INTERROGATED OR YOU SUSPECT IT, GO SEE A LAWYER AND CALL A LAWYER.

BEYOND THAT, PRACTICAL ADVICE, WE HOPE PEOPLE COULD READ THE STORIES AND REALIZE THAT THERE'S A LOT OF INNOCENT PEOPLE IN PRISON AND THAT THIS COULD HAPPEN TO ANYONE.

THESE AREN'T JUST STREET KIDS WHO GOT IN TROUBLE.

JOE BRIAN SPENT 35 YEARS IN PRISON IN TEXAS AND WAS A HIGH SCHOOL PRINCIPAL WITH TWO COLLEGE DEGREES SO THIS COULD HAPPEN TO A LOT OF PEOPLE.

WE HOPE PEOPLE REALIZE THE STORIES, YOU NEED TO BE SUSPICIOUS.

LET'S QUESTION THESE AUTHORITIES.

DON'T JUST ACCEPT WHAT THEY SAY, OKAY?

IT'S OKAY TO BE SKEPTICAL.

AND, YOU KNOW, BEYOND THAT ISN'T ENTERTAINMENT BUT THIS RAISES AWARENESS.

>> WHAT CHANGES DO YOU THINK IN THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM THERE SHOULD BE?

>> WE HAVE A PACKAGE FOR LEGISLATION THAT THE INNOCENCE PROJECT FILES EVERY YEAR IN ALL 50 STATES .

WE MAKE SLOW-SLOW PROGRESS.

IT'S VERY SLOW.

FOR EXAMPLE, THE HUGE PROBLEM, PAID INFORMANTS, INCENTIVIZED INFORMANTS, THERE'S A WAY TO HANDLE THOSE PEOPLE THAT MOST OTHER COUNTRIES HANDLE BETTER WITH SEPARATE HEARINGS, INVESTIGATION INTO THE TESTIMONY.

IT'S A HUGE CURSE ON THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM IN AMERICA BUT JUNK SCIENCE, WE COULD IMPROVE OUR FORENSIC STANDARDS AND REQUIRE POLICE TO VIDEO INTERROGATIONS.

THE VIDEOCAMERAS ARE RIGHT THERE IN THE ROOM.

THEY'VE USED THEM THE LAST 15 MINUTES WHEN THEY FINALLY BREAK DOWN.

VIDEO, IF YOU DON'T WANT PEOPLE TO SEE IT, WE SHOULD PREVENT POLICE FROM LYING AT WILL TO THE SUSPECTS DURING THEIR INTERROGATIONS.

THE LIES ARE INCREDIBLE.

WE SHOULD TIGHTEN UP THE EDIFICATION, IT'S A HUGE PROBLEM IN LAWFUL CONDITIONS CONVICTIONS.

WE HAVE A WHOLE PACKAGE OF WAYS TO IMPROVE THE SYSTEM AND WE ARE MAKING PROGRESS.

>> JOHN GRISHAM, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU WALTER, MY PLEASURE, GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN.