♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ >> We welcome back Dr. John Hope Bryant, driver for social change not only in America, but throughout the world, next on "The Chavis Chronicles."

>> Major funding for "The Chavis Chronicles" is provided by the following.

At Wells Fargo, diverse representation and perspectives, equity, and inclusion is critical to meeting the needs of our colleagues, customers, and communities.

We are focused on our commitment to diversity, equity, and inclusion both inside our company and in the communities where we live and work.

Together, we want to make a tangible difference in people's lives and in our communities.

Wells Fargo -- the bank of doing.

American Petroleum Institute -- through API's Energy Excellence Program, our members are committed to accelerating safety, environmental, and sustainability progress throughout the natural-gas and oil industry around the world.

Learn more at api.org/apienergyexcellence.

Reynolds American, dedicated to building a better tomorrow for our employees and communities.

Reynolds stands against racism and discrimination in all forms and is committed to building a more diverse and inclusive workplace.

At AARP, we are committed to ensuring your money, health, and happiness live as long as you do.

♪♪ ♪♪ The formation of the Freedman's Savings & Trust Company, or the Freedman's Bank, was a bold idea for its time.

January 1865, the end of the Civil War was imminent.

A group of white Northern abolitionists and business leaders met in New York to explore the formation of a permanent bank to help African-American Civil War soldiers and the African-American community.

For the first time in their lives, newly emancipated men and women needed a safe place to deposit their money.

On February 13, 1865, President Abraham Lincoln signed a bill making the formation of the Freedman's Bank a law.

37 branch offices in 17 states and the District of Columbia were opened.

Most depositors were low-wage earners -- butlers, maids, cooks, and soldiers -- but African-American churches, schools, and other groups also put their money in the bank.

Depositors also included individuals who had been freed long before emancipation.

It is estimated that over the nine-year length of the bank, approximately 100,000 individuals and institutions opened bank accounts, with deposits totaling more than $57 million.

That's the equivalent to $115 billion today.

During its first five years, Freedman's Bank operated as a well-functioning institution.

However, an amendment to the bank's charter led to risky asset investments.

This, along with a lack of proper oversight, led to fraud, mismanagement, and abuse.

In 1874, Frederick Douglass was recruited to serve as the bank's president.

He believed that the failing bank could be saved and even invested his own money to revive it, but these efforts came too late.

Freedman's Bank closed its doors June 29, 1874.

When it failed, depositors lost their savings.

It was a bitter conclusion to such a promising venture.

Despite its tragic end, the Freedman's Bank represented the dreams for equality and inclusion in America's economic mainstream.

>> Welcome back to "The Chavis Chronicles," Dr. John Hope Bryant.

What drove you to see the economic piece as a major driver for social change -- not only in America, but throughout the world?

>> Now, you know I'm a math guy, so I like accurate numbers.

So, we've helped, as you say, thousands and tens of thousands in the place we're at now, which is the city of Atlanta, but we actually have helped more than 4 million, globally, in the work since I founded it.

>> 4 million.

>> 4 million-plus.

And we've directed -- we've invested $4 billion, U.S., since our founding.

So, we're the largest community-based investor in underserved neighborhoods.

So, in some ways, it's finishing what the Freedman's Bank started in 1865 with Abraham Lincoln and Frederick Douglass.

>> So, I want to make sure that our audience understands when they hear the terms "freedmen," when they hear the terms of what happened in Savannah, Georgia, when General Sherman signed these papers of 40 acres and a mule.

>> Yeah.

Field Action 15.

>> And then what happened?

You know, obviously, those that were enslaved, after the Emancipation Proclamation, something happened.

They didn't get the 40 acres and the mule.

>> Right.

>> Tell us what is relevant today with the term freedmen's and the fulfillment of those promises made but not kept.

>> Well, the backstory is that there were some ministers who were asked, "What do you want after slavery?"

So they said, "We want land.

We want to do for ourselves."

And so these folks said yes to that.

That land was from North Carolina all the way down to what we call North Florida.

And they worked that land so hard, that first 1,000 people worked that land so hard, they said, "My God, they're so industrious.

Give them a mule."

That was like saying, "Give the farmer a tractor."

It wasn't charity.

It was an investment.

So you had 40 acres and a mule.

That was January 1865, and in March 1865, Abraham Lincoln, inspired by another pastor out of New York, a black pastor who created the first Freedman's Bank and who inspired Congress and, thus, the president to bake that into the Freedmen's Bureau, there came a bank called the Freedman's Bank March 3, 1865, chartered to teach freed slaves about money.

That's our financial literacy, circa 1865.

And then President Lincoln made the mistake of promising blacks the right to vote.

And Booth said, "That's a bridge too far.

It's the last speech you'll ever give."

And he was assassinated the next month, April.

And, luckily, there was a businessman who had freedom.

All money is his freedom.

It was a businessman who had the freedom to do as he liked, and that man, who owned $6 million worth of real estate in today's money in Baltimore, Maryland, rented it out to working-class blacks.

Was, again, a guy named Frederick Douglass, who we know to be an abolitionist.

So, this has been -- You know, this has been our journey forever.

And, unfortunately, when Lincoln was assassinated -- And, by the way, that bank was located across the street from the White House.

As you know, your genius of Washington, D.C., is proximity.

>> Yes.

>> Proximity to power.

So you can put important things in Virginia and Maryland.

I mean, the CIA is in -- you know, outside of the Beltway.

Congress is you know, not next to the White House.

I mean, it's important.

You know, there's a lot -- >> Is that property still identified as Freedman Bank's property?

>> I don't know if this is a trick question, but I think you know I'm the only American that triggered the renaming of a building on the White House campus, and that was a building across from the White House, across from Treasury.

It was called Treasury Annex Building.

That's where the Freedman's Bank was located.

And if you look at it today, it's called the Freedman's Bank Building because I bugged the Secretary of the Treasury, Jack Lew, so much, and his African adviser, Wally Adeyemo -- I bugged them so much in 2015, they said, "If we don't change the name of this building, this guy is going to wear us out every day."

So they changed the name of the building to -- In fact, the attorneys actually said that you couldn't do it.

They said, "John, who do you think you are?"

I'm an American citizen with an idea.

And I said, "Well, how do you know you can't change the name of the building?

Have you checked?"

"Well, it's got to go through the historical society and Congress and the Senate."

I said, "Have you checked?"

"We'll be back at you."

And they came back a few weeks later and said, "Actually, you can change it administratively."

Secretary of the Treasury can change it just with a -- change it with the signing of a pen.

So I looked over at the Secretary of the Treasury and I said, "Mr. Secretary, you cannot possibly tell me that the US Treasury Annex building is a sexier name than the Freedman's Bank building.

Change the name."

That's what it is today.

And so that building across from the white House, across from Treasury, uh, was proximity to power.

Lincoln could go upstairs, look out the window and look at his greatest experiment since -- on the other side of the Civil War, which was really putting Blacks in a position for self-determination -- land, access to machinery, access to capital.

>> You mentioned the term "access to capital."

Tell us how vital that is.

And of course, now, if you go to New York, there's a whole group of people called private equity.

>> Yes, sir.

>> Private capital.

>> Yes, sir.

>> So talk to us about -- >> And you were an adviser to the top Black in private capital in 1985, Reginald Lewis.

>> Yes.

First black billionaire.

>> First Black man to do $1 billion deal on Wall Street.

$1 billion in 1985 is $20 billion today.

>> Reginald F. Lewis.

>> That was a baller -- That's the original financial gangster.

That dude was bad, bad, bad, bad, bad.

From Baltimore.

>> Went to a HBCU.

>> Yeah.

>> Virginia State University in Petersburg, Virginia.

>> And you were his spiritual advisor.

>> We would work very close.

>> You were at his bedside when he passed away, I understand.

>> Yes, I was.

>> And when you were locked up, uh, in North Carolina, I believe it was -- >> The Wilmington Ten.

>> Yeah, the Wilmington Ten.

As I understand it, there was a bail that was put up, and Reginald Lewis was so brilliant.

This speaks to capital knowledge, speaks to financial literacy, which is a form of capital.

Reginald Lewis, as I understood it, analyzed the bail money and found out that the $500,000 was invested, the bail money, by the state.

>> By the state of North Carolina.

>> And he demanded that the state share the profits of that with the church.

>> That's correct.

>> I mean, that's gangster.

When you're being run out of town, get in front of the crowd, make it like a parade.

You know, look... >> When knowing how the structure is structured, knowing the importance of capital.

We live in a capitalist society.

>> A capitalist democracy, actually.

>> Well, that... >> First corporation -- The first democracy was a corporation.

It was not the other way around.

It was a, you know -- It was all of these companies from Britain and Europe who came here, and Spain and everyplace else.

>> Well, the thing that holds our democracy together is supposed to be equal opportunity.

We're supposed to be moving toward a more perfect union.

But a lot of times, as you know, economic question sometimes is not on the table.

The economic question is not even discussed unless there's some tragedy.

Then temporarily, you know, there may be some charitable, some philanthropic response, but not the kind of sustainability that can create real change.

>> Malcolm X said we've been bamboozled.

We've been tricked.

We've been fooled.

This is one of those times.

Uh, no different than the Blacks and the whites who were getting along together and were pitted against each other.

No different than the fact that most organizations today fighting for social justice were created by Blacks and whites and Jews together.

But now, somehow, we're pitted against each other as if we're supposed to hate each other.

A house -- The Bible says, as you well know, a house divided cannot stand.

You're the pastor, not me.

But you'll correct me if I'm wrong.

Uh, the reality is that money has always been around.

But we don't understand it.

People like when we don't understand it.

They prefer we spend it but not save it.

But the capital question you asked earlier ties into this because it's about knowledge capital.

It's about, yes, financial capital.

It's about, yes, access to capital.

You cannot build a community without good -- without backing, financial backing.

You cannot build a community, I'll say it, without banking.

There are no billionaires without leverage.

Let me rephrase that.

There are no people who became billionaires without understanding good debt, leverage of capital, so... >> Good debt.

Most people think that all debt is bad debt.

>> Oh, that's wrong.

No, bad debt is financing jewelry.

[ Laughs ] Bad debt is financing, you know, a Hertz car rental or any car rental.

A bad debt is financing a ticket to a concert.

Bad debt is financing something that depreciates.

>> Depreciating assets versus appreciating assets.

>> Good debt is attaching something that might appreciate and you build wealth in your sleep.

So this building, commercial building, uh, is good debt.

Uh, a home is certainly good debt.

Number-one way you build wealth in America is homeownership.

But 41%, 44% of Black folks own a home.

>> Because homes appreciate.

>> They appreciate in value.

Now, somebody watching this will say, "Aha!

We got him.

There's been several recessions and, uh, I lost my rear end buying a home."

Well, you should have sold because the history of real estate in the history of the world is that real estate has never depreciated in value.

It's never gone down.

It goes up, it hits a dip, a recession, it dips, and then corrects above the line.

It dips, corrects above the line.

It dips, corrects above the line.

All you have to do is hold on.

>> So geometrically, there's an incline.

>> That, by the way, stock market, also.

All you got to do is hold on, buy it now.

Because when you buy it, you're deep -- you're writing off the depreciation.

You're getting off -- You're getting the appreciation, the increase in value for the real estate, and you're going to get the mortgage payment back in a tax refund.

Hello.

So even the payments you're making, you're going to get back at the end of the year with a tax refund.

20 or 30 years of a mortgage payment is tax deductible.

>> Why isn't financial literacy mandatory in the public schools?

>> Because teachers and principals and most legislators are also financially illiterate.

And that's not a diss.

It's just 70% of this country -- >> Yeah, but if financial literacy is so key to success, feel like it would be in the interest of the economy and the interest of the democracy for not only K through 12, but in life we should be discussing financial literacy, not just the terms, but understanding the importance of the interactions.

>> So you're asking some very deep questions.

I'm gonna try to give you some -- I'm gonna try to give you some serious answers without overclocking the audiences.

I want to make the audience remain optimistic.

But you've gone in this country from bad capitalism.

Or you've gone from oppressive capitalism -- slavery -- to bad capitalism -- Jim Crow laws, discrimination, separate and unequal, right?

And unfair capitalism that meant well.

Things like the GI Bill.

That's where the birth of the modern middle class came from -- the GI Bill post World War II.

Um, and as -- and as we -- I would like to think we've become more enlightened.

Uh, and so as capitalism and democracy has refined, I think that people now are realizing that you cannot be the largest economy on the planet where 70% of people live from paycheck to paycheck.

And it's not just now a poor person's issue.

I mean, half of those making $100,000 a year, Dr. Chavis, are living from paycheck to paycheck.

A third of those -- Hold on now.

Hold on to your chair.

A third of those making $250,000 a year are living from paycheck to paycheck.

So I think the best way to solve a problem is when people are looking at it and seeing themselves.

So now, I mean, most Americans don't have $400 for an unplanned event.

It's a problem for everybody.

I'll put it another way.

Now, my rich friends know -- my rich friends think my poor friends will do better if only they stay rich.

My rich friends think my poor friends would do better if only they stay rich.

We're all in this thing together.

So now, unless you want a circular firing squad, we all now realize that demographics are destiny.

40% of all people in this country now are people of color.

So you can't just be rooting for white people's success, right?

There's not enough of college-educated, successful white men to grow the GDP, the economy for the next 30 years.

That's not a racial comment.

That's not a -- It's not a political comment.

That's not an emotional comment.

That's math.

We got to realize that, actually, an educated population is how we all win.

And so I finally think that there's a moment now with this period I call the third reconstruction, where we're going to talk about for the first time, not red or blue politics -- Thank you for all your work, bipartisan matter -- not white or Black race.

But green.

>> It's been 60 years or more now since Dr. King gave his famous "I Have a Dream" speech on August 28, 1963.

Part of that speech had an economic agenda.

What is that we need to do better at to make sure that there's more equal opportunity, more access to capital, more financial literacy, more engagement, uh, more people getting themselves out of poverty?

>> I think financial literacy is a civil rights issue of this generation.

I think that we're figuring out that we're better together the hard way.

I think that... the civil rights movement was about access -- access to a good job, access to public facilities, access to, you know, a political position, access, of course, to the ballot box.

And thank God for the civil rights bills of that day that provided that access, and Dr. King died.

People don't know the fourth civil rights bill was an open housing act.

Again, more about access.

The -- The -- The Silver Rights Movement moves us from the streets to the suites.

The Silver Rights Movement tries to reclaim the mantle of 1865.

We have the 1865 Project we've launched recently at Operation HOPE.

>> That's going back to the Freedmen's Bureau.

>> Goes back to the Freedman's Bank, Freedmen's Bureau, and the Freedman's Bank to pick up that mantle and finish that unfinished work, flowing it all the way through, through the civil rights movement.

So freedom -- first reconstruction.

Access -- second reconstruction.

Opportunity for all -- third reconstruction.

In the third reconstruction, to your question, we got to start writing checks, not just cashing them.

We've got to become committed to what I call K-1 wealth creation, not just W-2 income.

The rich have income.

The wealthy do not.

If you're rich, you have a good salary.

You can define rich.

It depends who -- You know, are you making $100,000 a year in the South?

You're rich.

You're making $250,000 a year in the West, on the coast?

You're rich.

That's not wealthy, but that's rich.

That's an income.

That's economic activity flowing through your hands.

You build wealth in your sleep.

That's called capital gains.

So while we're arguing about people -- rich people, you know, wealthy people -- who have million-dollar net worth, $10 million net worth, $20 million, $50 million or more, saying they should pay more in income tax, which is 38% of whatever it is, they're not getting a paycheck.

Their employees are.

They're benefiting on asset appreciation.

And that tax is 20%.

What you hate is a system that you think is taking advantage of you -- I was about to use another phrase -- but you don't understand the system.

You think I'm smarter than this person over here, and they're succeeding and I'm not, it must be rigged.

You hate a rigged system.

If we can unrig the system in your mind, if we can give you your financial literacy, if we can show you the latter prosperity, and we allow you to be successful, too, then maybe you want to now celebrate success and aspiration as we used to in this country.

We want to see people successful.

We should want to see people do well, uh, and want to emulate it.

We've got to return to that in this country, and it should include all of God's children.

>> So you've seen movement, people are able to increase their credit score if they follow the advice.

>> This is social justice through an economic lens.

The beautiful part about this is we're teaching you how to fish at scale.

You have control of this.

I can't control whether some person calls you a bad name.

I can't control whether somebody likes you or respects you or not.

We can't get in their heart and change how they feel about you.

But I can get in your head and change how you operate about you and how you're -- and as a result of that, what your credit score looks like.

We move your credit score up, your debt down, your savings up.

So the bank says yes.

That then allows you to become an asset owner that I mentioned earlier.

You know, 41%, 44% of Black people own a home, 76% of their white counterparts own a home.

That difference of 20%, almost 30%.

That's a wealth -- That's a wealth accumulation gap that's available to everybody to solve for.

Half of Black folks have a credit score below 620.

Not poor people.

Everybody.

And my poor white brothers and sisters are no better.

So if you want to go to see a neighborhood that we both think is a problem, whether it's white rural or Black and brown urban, it's a 580 credit-score neighborhood, Dr. Chavis, that has a check casher -- >> So neighborhoods not only have a zip code, they also have a credit score.

>> And a character.

And a culture.

And Andrew Young would say, Ambassador Andrew Young, Dr. King aide, was on that balcony when he was -- as he was assassinated -- Andrew Young would say, man who built this city.

Only international city in the South, 10th largest economy in the country.

He built this city, Andrew Young would say, to live in a system of free enterprise and not to understand the rules of free enterprise must be the very definition of slavery.

So if you go into an underserved neighborhood -- Black and brown urban or white rural -- here's what you see.

Check casher, next to a payday loan lender, next to a rent-to-own store, next to a title lender, next to a pawn shop and a church down the street trying to make you feel a little bit better once a week.

People who you and I care about are in a surviving mentality, Dr. Chavis.

They're not broke, they're poor.

There's a difference between being broke and being poor.

Being broke is economic.

Being poor is a disabling frame of mind, a depressed condition of our spirit.

And we must vow never, ever, ever to be poor again.

We've got to move people from a surviving mind-set where you're an expert in what you're against and you don't like success and you don't like rich people and all this stuff we're talking about, and politicians -- some are preying on people who are depressed.

I'm not going to name names, but you can probably figure it out.

And as a result of that, certain people now riding at the ballot box because they're angry that success is not come their way, and "somebody" must have stole it from them.

No, we just need to give you a solution like we're talking about now.

We need to move those folks from a surviving mentality, Dr. Chavis, to a thriving mentality.

That's the middle class.

And then a winning mentality, which were builders of industry, communities, organizations, churches, movements -- that winning mentality is what makes America truly exemplary in the world.

We don't have enough of this and we have too much of that.

>> So, John Hope Bryant, you're not only keeping hope alive, you're making hope thrive.

Thank you so much for joining "The Chavis Chronicles."

>> Honored to be with you.

>> For more information about "The Chavis Chronicles" and our guests, please visit our website at thechavischronicles.com.

Also follow us on Facebook, X, formally known as Twitter, LinkedIn, YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok.

Major funding for "The Chavis Chronicles" is provided by the following.

At Wells Fargo, diverse representation and perspectives, equity, and inclusion is critical to meeting the needs of our colleagues, customers, and communities.

We are focused on our commitment to diversity, equity, and inclusion, both inside our company and in the communities where we live and work.

Together, we want to make a tangible difference in people's lives and in our communities.

Wells Fargo -- the bank of doing.

American Petroleum Institute.

Through API's Energy Excellence Program, our members are committed to accelerating safety, environmental, and sustainability progress throughout the natural-gas and oil industry around the world.

Learn more at api.org/apienergyexcellence.

Reynolds American, dedicated to building a better tomorrow for our employees and communities.

Reynolds stands against racism and discrimination in all forms and is committed to building a more diverse and inclusive workplace.

At AARP, we are committed to ensuring your money, health, and happiness live as long as you do.

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