- Hello, I'm Nido Qubein.

Welcome to Side By Side.

My guest today is a number one New York Times bestseller author.

He's a speaker, a coach, a leader who has sold more than 33 million books.

This gentleman influences Fortune 500 CEOs, the presidents of nations and entrepreneurs worldwide.

It's why he's been called the most influential leadership expert in the world.

We're talking with my friend, Dr. John Maxwell.

- [Announcer] Funding for Side By Side with Nido Qubein is made possible by: - Here's to those that rise and shine to friendly faces, doing more than their part.

And to those who still enjoy the little things.

You make it feel like home.

Ashley HomeStore.

This is home.

- The BuddGroup is a company of everyday leaders making a difference by providing facility solutions through customized janitorial, landscape and maintenance services.

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[cheerful music] - John, Welcome to Side By Side.

My goodness.

Your influence has been felt from border to border, coast to coast, countries around the world.

You have written so many books, 80 plus books, sold almost 35 to 40 million copies.

You've coached people.

You've planted seeds of greatness everywhere you've been.

And you began as a minister of a church in Indiana.

- I did with, with three people the first Sunday, and two of them were my wife, Margaret and me.

[laughter] Honestly Nido, and it was an elderly lady who lived right beside the church named Maude.

So it was Maude, Margaret and me the very first Sunday.

And you know, what's interesting about where you start is I just loved where I started and people look at me today where I am, and they say, you just must love your life and love what you're doing.

I said, well, I do, but I loved what I was doing in Southern Indiana with three people.

And I think so many times we just kind of get destination disease, kind of thinking that somewhere out there is going to be the answer for us, or we're going to be fulfilled out there.

And I just think that when you love what you do and you do what you love, doesn't matter how big you are, how small you are, you just enjoy the journey.

And I can honestly say that I've had a wonderful journey, but it isn't like it's gotten wonderful in the last 10 years.

It was wonderful in by the way, Hillham, Indiana, is where I started.

- Three people.

- Three people.

Went on to be a big church.

And then you built churches in California and Ohio, and there were mega churches.

- Yeah, I was, by the time I was 29, I had the 10th largest church in America and people would ask me what happened.

And honestly, I would just say, well, work hard.

You know, it, it was kind of like, I didn't quite understand why they couldn't build a great church.

And it took me a couple of three years to really understand that I, that I was a good leader.

And when I came to the conclusion that everything rises and falls on leadership, Nido, that was the moment.

That was the moment everything turned as far as I said, now I know if it's true that everything rises and falls on leadership, I'm going to give my life to helping people learn how to lead, because if I can help them learn how to lead, no matter what profession they have, they're going to do better.

And so that's kind of when I just bought into what I thought and believed in what's beautiful, 50 years later, I believe it more than what I did in the beginning.

And I think that's huge too.

I think you really know you have something when over the years it's proven and it's, it's kind of like, I'm more certain about it today than I was when I began.

And I think that's kind of a beautiful thing.

- And you've been named the number one leadership speaker in the world for a reason, John, because you have indeed shown people how to lead.

What is your definition of leadership?

- I think leadership Nido, is just influence.

And I, and I think that we make it way too complicated.

I think we, we, I think we want to attach position with it or title with it.

And, you know, Mother Teresa was an incredible leader, a great influencer worldwide.

She never had a title.

I mean, she, you know, she worked in the slums of Calcutta and I think that we make leadership way too complicated.

And I just sit back and I try to be a, I try to be a communicator and, and take things complicated and make it simple for people.

And, and I just share with people, leadership is imposing.

Then they say, well, then how do I increase my influence?

And I say, by, by intentionally adding value to people on a daily basis.

Te moment that you began to intentionally add value to people, they begin to influence you.

I mean, think of people in your life that have influence with you.

There are people that have just been a plus in your life and all of that, you just say, I need them.

And so I think that it just begins.

I tell young people all the time, if you really want to be a great leader, just start by specifically intentionally adding value to people on a daily basis.

- If leadership has influence, that follows therefore, not every leader is doing good.

- Leadership at its best brings the best out of people.

Leadership at his worst brings the worst out of people.

And so, so the, the rising of leadership is competence and values.

When you you show me a leader that has competence and has great values, they're going to rise and that the people are going to rise with them, but you, the false part is incompetence and lack of values and in fact, you know, one of the reasons I've been so attracted to what you do at High Point University is I think you really do a great job with life skills, competence, and values.

I know nobody that does it better than, than you anywhere.

And, and that's kind of always draw me to you because you're that type of a leader.

You, you're an example of a person that's highly competent, but also a person that really has that inner core of values that allows you to do the right thing for the right reason, because you know, as well as I do that leadership, that doesn't do the right thing for the right reason.

It's very damning.

- So thank you for that John.

Tell me this, what would be the three top ingredients for a good leader to develop?

- Well, I think number one is humility.

- What is humility?

- I think, well, humility, isn't self depreciation.

A lot of people say, well, I, I, you know what, I'm not very good at that.

[indistinct].

You know, humility is not thinking less of yourself, but is thinking of yourself less.

And, and what humility means that I have the ability to get beyond myself and really care for people and, and, and be interested in those people and who they are and what they do and, and humility makes us teachable.

And I think that's absolutely, the core to growth is having a teachable spirit, always wanting to learn.

Well, who wants to always learn a person that's humble, who, who believes that everybody is their teacher and every experience has something to teach them in.

And so I put humility to the top.

And the other reason I put it at the top is, is I think a leader without humility does great damage.

It's only a matter of time until I will.

There's a difference between moving people and motivating people and manipulating them.

When I manipulate people, I move them for my own personal advantage, which is always wrong.

When I really motivate them, I motivate them for their advantage.

And, and, and I think that the, when we lack humility, I think we began to put ourselves first before people.

So I think that so.

- So you can have humility and confidence at the same time.

- Oh, very much so.

I, I, it, in fact, a false humility is, I am nothing, or I couldn't do this.

And, and that's, that's, I'm not talking about that all, but I am talking about a real sense of, of knowing that other people have worth and value, and it just makes us teach them.

So I would say that would be number one.

I, I would say number two with a leader would be authenticity, just being real.

And, and I, there's something that is see, I think success has a tendency to create a gap between the successful person and the, and the people.

And that's one of the things I've never liked about success.

I always say, how do I shorten that or remove that gap?

And I want friends, but I don't want fans.

And, and, and I, I think if I have fans, I have a tendency to show them what I think they want to see.

But I think if I have friends, they know who I really am.

- What is the glue that makes it possible?

Not fans, but friends.

The success can create this gap between the successful and the not so successful.

Right.

That's a really powerful point, John.

- I think it is too.

And I think that, I think the person who is successful, I think it is it's my responsibility to remove the gap.

It's my responsibility not to allow people to be fans of mine, but to be friends of mine.

And what I mean by that is.

- How do you do that?

Well, you do that by first of all, caring and valuing people and, and not wanting to keep it.

Walk slowly through the crowd, walk, walk slowly through the crowd.

Let, let people know that you care for them and that you value them.

And you do that also by being very honest about not only what you do well, but being very honest about what you don't do well.

And what I tell people all the time is I have a few real high gifts, but I'm really average in so many areas of my life.

And I had, oh, Nido.

I had, okay, I have to say this because I had a mentor that really helped me in this area.

And it's, it's when we're going back to when I was 29, I had the, you know, 10th largest church.

And one Sunday after, you know, my big day, he took me to lunch.

We had a three-hour lunch and, and he said to me, something that just changed my life, changed, changed my life.

He said, John, you're highly gifted, but your gifts are greater than you.

And so I'm sitting back there and I said, well, you're going to help me understand that.

You said you are so gifted in a few areas that when people come up to you, they're going to say you're amazing.

And he said, I just want you to know.

You're not amazing, John.

I know you really well.

And you've got some real, you've got some real faults and you've got some, or you, you know, you're not a perfect person.

- Did you ask him to leave the congregation at that point?

- He was my mentor.

I couldn't, I, in fact, I was afraid he was going to ask me to leave the congregation.

But the point being, he taught me that day, something very important.

He said, when people say you're amazing, they're, they're really confusing the giftedness that you have.

And he said, always understand that you have a gift and it was God-given.

And, and God's amazing.

He gave you the gift, but remember, it's a gift and you didn't earn it.

You didn't deserve it.

You're not like amazing yourself.

He just created you with a purpose and gave you that gift to really help and add value people.

But he said always remember that gift that you have.

When they say it's amazing, just be grateful to God that you have the gift.

- And that's what creates authenticity.

- I think it does.

- Yes.

- Because then when people say, you're amazing, I said, well, yeah, you, you saw me in my sweet spot.

You know, come home with me and see me every day.

And you won't think I'm too amazing at all.

You know, in fact, you know, when you raise up your children, you're sometimes you're thinking, I don't think I'm amazing at all, but, but the point is, I think that authenticity, humility.

And then I think thirdly, having great values.

I'm just passionate about a person embracing and living out good values, because I feel that when people learn good values and they live with good values, I just think they become a plus and an asset to everybody that's around them, family, community, whatever, their, whatever their work is.

I just think that they begin to really bless people when they do things for the right reasons.

And they just are, they're, they're bigger on, it's like they're better on the inside than they are the outside.

They're bigger on the inside than they are on the outside.

- Yeah, and, and the, the having such value certainly can keep us on the right track because good habits are hard to develop John, but they're easy to live with.

Bad habits are easy to develop, but they're hard to live with.

Your values are clear, your behavior is clear, your beliefs are clear.

Your results are going to be better.

So authenticity above charisma, right.

At any time.

- Yeah.

I, I think, I, I think charisma is a little overrated.

I think it gets you in the door, but I don't think it keeps you in the door.

I think, I think it gives me an instant audience.

I, I think it gets me a quick applause.

I think it's, it's kind of like, oh, let me sign up.

I think charisma does that.

But I think if you don't have credibility and authenticity, it doesn't really, how long does it take for people to know that you're not the real deal?

And so I say, I think charisma is important, but I wouldn't put it at not in the top three.

- It's interesting that you, I asked you the question, what are the three most important traits that a leader should have?

You did not say skills.

You did not say communication.

You said humility, authenticity, and values.

- Yeah.

- At some point you're going to say skills and competence and experience and.

- Yeah, but, but you see when you have the inner part right, now the skillset just begins to be enhanced.

I mean, how far can you go?

Well, there's a skill set that's gonna allow you to go so far.

But what sets people apart is that they have good skills.

They're very competent, but they use those skills for the right reasons.

And that's, that's the difference maker.

I think that's what gets us out of what I call the talent pile.

I mean, there's a lot of talented people there, but what is it that allows some people that are talented to just have a great long influential life and other people, they kind of crash and burn.

And I, it wasn't a skill problem.

No, no, it, it was a, it was values.

It was an inner issue, wrong values, not lack of humility, just, you know, thinking they're more important than they really are, lack of good values.

I just say, I just let me put this way.

I don't think great values would necessarily make a great leader without skillset, but I think it disqualifies a great leader.

And so I'm always looking at the fact, if I have the skillset, what I need to be really aware of is what's the, what's the disqualifier.

I gotta make sure that I keep that inside.

I think if you're, I think if you're a bigger on the inside, you will become bigger on the outside.

I just think it's automatic.

And I think, I just think what's on the inside after a period of time shows up on the outside.

- So, if you're giving an advice to someone about how to become a great leader, obviously you would say those three things, but what else would you really say in terms of practical, pragmatic application in life and with people?

- I was so, I was so fortunate.

I've had a lot of great mentors in my life.

I mean, I have, I owe so much to so many people who walked in my life at different times and just really helped me.

And when I, in the very beginning, I had a, a mentor.

In fact, he's 88 today is, is, and I just affectionately call him ET.

And he, he said to me, when I was about 24, he said, John, visit great places, meet great people, read great books, engage in great experiences and, and, and have great thoughts.

And he just really challenged me to be very aware of where I spent my time and who I spent my time with and what I was doing and where I was going.

And I became, I became quite intentional by that.

And I think that I, you know, if you hang out, if you hang around the barbershop every day, sooner or later, you're going to get a haircut.

You just are, you know what I mean?

It's, it's the environment.

It's kind of like, well, you know, I might as well climb in that chair and let him do a little clipping myself.

And I think that, and again, if you don't mind, I just have to go back to, I think that's been the secret of High Point University.

I think that you have created a great environment for students to come and in this environment be exposed to all the things I just said that my mentor said when I was 24 that I needed.

And what is the result of that?

You can't be in a great environment without coming out on the other side, and including yourself.

- So, so the whole point is choose to be extraordinary, right?

It's a choice.

- You ought to use that.

- It's a choice, - Honest to God.

I give you permission to use that for High Point University.

- Who you spend time with is who you become, what you choose is what you get.

John, let's talk about failure for a moment.

Yes.

If you had failures in your life, name us one.

And what did you learn from it?

- Well, my first, oh my gosh, I've had many, many failures, but my first failure was when I was very young and I hired my first staff member and had the idealism that we'll be here, we'll do life together, we'll do mission together.

And isn't this amazing.

Hey, I'm 24 and you're 22, and, and we really liked each other.

And it was a wonderful for a couple of years.

And then he, he, he, his, his behavior went south and I had to let him go.

And wow, I said to myself, here's.

The mistake wasn't hiring him.

The mistake was my reaction.

I said, I'm never, I was so close to him.

And I poured so much into him.

I'm never going to do that again.

That hurt too much.

So I'm going to, when I hire, I'll hire them and say, this is your job and I'll do my job, or we'll meet at the Christmas party.

You know what I'm saying?

But I'm going to do this.

I'm just not, I'm not gonna let people get close to me, which was a huge failure.

It's a huge mistake.

And I did that for about a year and it wasn't working at all.

It wasn't, I mean, there was no, there was no camaraderie.

There was, you know, there was, there was nothing that was connecting me with my staff.

And I came to the conclusion one day that yes, as a leader, I'm going to be deeply hurt.

There are going to be times and people and situations that it's going to hurt a lot.

But I, if I, if I keep it, here's the good news.

If I keep people at a distance, they can't hurt me, but they won't help me.

But if I just let them in where they can help me, and yes, every once in a while there'll be a hurt.

And so it was a great learning experience from that.

But, but, you know, just makes it one more thing about failure failures.

'Cause I, I, I think the subject is totally misunderstood.

I think failure and success should never be separated.

And I, I, you know, people say, well, you know, succeed, don't fail.

And they kind of, and I look and I say, I've never known anybody that succeeded that didn't fail.

Let's get them where they belong together because there's something beautiful about failure that teaches us humility that in our success, we can handle it.

And there's something about success that encourages and takes failure out of the ditch to give us courage and resilience and tenacity.

And I think we make a huge mistake, but keep them together because they are together.

No matter what age, no matter how good you are, you still have your misses and your mess ups.

- Well, of all the books that you've written and you've written many of them, do you have a favorite?

- Yes.

- What is it?

- The one I'm writing.

[laughter] - The one you're writing.

- The one you hoping is going to sell another million and help a lot of people.

- It's always the one I'm writing it.

So, so, so when I'm writing this book, I said, oh, this is my favorite book.

I love, why didn't I write this earlier?

So I write it, you know, and get it off the publisher.

So now I'm writing another book.

- So what does that mean?

The one I'm writing?

- What it means is if you don't love and greatly value where you are now, you won't give people the best product they deserve.

And so, in fact, I think, I think when I stop saying my favorite book is the book I'm writing, I think I'm going to stop writing.

- That applies to speeches?

- Totally.

- Seminars, coaching.

- Everything.

Yeah.

What I'm doing today is my best, but tomorrow I've got to go to better.

So, so my ceiling on best today, Nido, is my floor tomorrow.

I take best and say, I gave it my best shot, but now here, now I've got to build off of it.

And I think that's how you improve.

I think that's how you keep learning and growing and expanding your, your potential.

- Yes, absolutely.

That's what transformation is all about.

Reaching the highest level of potential.

- That's exactly right.

- Can you think of a time that you took a risk that scared you, maybe it's a business risk, a risk that scared you and you had the guts not to avoid the risk, but to take the risk.

And you knew that you can manage this risk and maybe you did, maybe you didn't.

- Yeah, I can.

Effectively many of them, but maybe, maybe, I don't know.

The, I was a pastor for 25 years and my publisher, one day in a publishing meeting and said, you do realize that two-thirds of your books are being bought by the business community.

And I had no clue.

I said, you're kidding me.

Oh, no he said, they're, they're just grabbing your leadership principles.

And of course I'm a person of faith.

So immediately I felt called to cross over because I felt this.

- Was that a risk?

In your mind, was that a risk?

- A book had just been written to that.

I was one of the 10 most influential churches in America.

And that I as a pastor in San Diego with this huge congregation, and I was known throughout the town.

And all of a sudden I was going to leave all that, all that good stuff and go into a world.

- Different market.

- That's exactly right.

And start all over.

Basically I know that my leadership stuff was out there, but I was starting all over.

And for three years I had just a huge steep climb.

In fact, every time I was with a business person, I just have to ask them questions and I was trying to learn their world so that I could connect even better with their world.

That was, that was a huge risk.

And then.

- But that's a risk that worked for you.

- Oh, it was a risk.

- In a big, big way.

What is the most difficult thing about being a pastor of a church?

Too many people who think they're the bosses?

- Well, you just, you, you just, you, it's hard to lead, a church is like a family, which is beautiful, but it's like a family, which is ugly.

And when you want to make a hard decision, you know, but you can't that, you know, Uncle Joe's been with us for life.

And so for a person who really wants grow something, they have to be very skilled.

I say it's much easier to build a business than a, than a church because the church is all volunteer.

I mean, hey, if they don't like you, they don't come back.

In a, in a, in a business, you get paid to do the work.

In a church you ask people to give you money.

I mean, it's a, Nido, it's a much higher.

Let me do this.

If you can build a great church, you can pretty well build a great business.

Trust me, 'cause you develop those people.

- The church is like a university, John, that's what you wish to say.

Yeah, I get it.

- A university's not a country club.

There are certain things that, you know, so, but.

- What's next for John Maxwell.

- I am so excited.

I'm 74 and the best days are really ahead of us.

You know, in our, in our organization, in the John Maxwell enterprise, we have seven different companies.

Mark Cole is the co-owner and also the CEO of it, but, but we have been doing transformation in countries for now 10 years.

And we started with Guatemala.

We went to Paraguay when we went to Costa Rica.

Now we're in the Dominican Republic.

We're getting ready to go to New Guinea, but it's all based on, on, on putting values back into people's lives.

And so very simply what we do is we start with the top 10%, not the bottom.

Most non-profits go to the low-hanging fruit.

We don't, we, we think there's value there.

But, but one thing we know is if you go to the bottom 10%, influence never filtered up.

And so it just stays with the bottom 10%.

So we said, it'll take longer, it'll be harder, but let's crack the top 10% and let the influence filter down.

And so we're invited in by the presidents of the countries and, and we go in and we do, we do values training, the eight streams of influence in that country, in small groups.

And we go for 10%, the tipping point to turn it around.

And we're just seeing remarkable things happen.

- And that's a great feeling.

- It's in front of us.

It's all in front of us, so I'm excited.

- You know, John Maxwell, you may have been born in Michigan, but you're a citizen of the world and bringing leadership to all corners of the world.

We thank you for who you are for what you do.

And I know that days ahead are just to start for you, thank you for being with me Side by Side.

- Thank you my friend.

- [Announcer] Funding for Side By Side with Nido Qubein is made possible by: - Here's to those that rise and shine to friendly faces doing more than their part.

And to those who still enjoy the little things.

You make it feel like home.

Ashley HomeStore.

This is home.

- The BuddGroup is a company of everyday leaders making a difference by providing facility solutions through customized janitorial, landscape and maintenance services.

- Coca-Cola Consolidated is honored to make and serve 300 brands and flavors locally.

Thanks to our teams.

We are Coca-Cola Consolidated your local bottler.